Climbing & descending turns

[shumway76]

Is there any the preference:

Establish climb / descend then initiate turn

Or turn, then climb / descend?

If both are ok, which should be learned first?

Cheers!

[n5296s]

How about do them both at the same time...? There's nothing that says you can't, it's called a blended manouver.

[Cazalet33]

It's a 3-d environment. You can do all three at once.

As for teaching sprogs:- stick to the routine.

S&L; level(ish) turns; climb; descent; climbing turns; descending turns; other stuff.

[B2N2]

Is there any the preference:

Establish climb / descend then initiate turn

Or turn, then climb / descend?

If both are ok, which should be learned first?

Cheers!

Well your instructor should teach you all three.
It’s called the building block method of flight instructing or any instructing.
Baby steps.
Initially level climbs and level turns.
Then teach
Level turn then transition to climb
Level climb then transition to turn
Climbing turn ( blended)
In normal regular flying you’ll use all variations.
It makes no sense to teach a blended maneuver to a newbie if they don’t understand the basics.
It’s like cooking, learn all the ingredients.
Don’t learn by chugging them all together and hoping for the best.

[n5296s]

It makes no sense to teach a blended maneuver to a newbie if they don’t understand the basics.
Sure, but the OP didn't say it was what order to teach things, he said it was what order to do them.

[Heston]

Sure, but the OP didn't say it was what order to teach things, he said it was what order to do them.

It depends what you want to achieve in the real world. You need to be able to do both ways round plus simultaneously.
It's easier to learn first transition from straight climb or descent.
Get your instructor to show you how to do a "baked beans can".

[BEagle]

Medium turns is a good exercise to teach when there's a relatively low cloudbase. If there's a decent horizon, fly it below cloud otherwise fly above 8/8 where there'll be less turbulence and a good horizon.

Whereas for C&D, you really need a good high cloudbase.

Once both exercises have been grasped by the student (the order isn't important), C&D turns can be included as required during subsequent exercises such as stalling.

[B2N2]

Sure, but the OP didn't say it was what order to teach things, he said it was what order to do them.

How’s your English comprehension coming along?

If both are ok, which should be learned first?

[scifi]

For the first 4 or 5 flights of your training your instructor will do the take-offs and landings.

After that you will need to take-off and climb, then at 500ft do the maximum 15 degree bank angle climbing turn onto the crosswind leg.
Followed by an APT levelling off at 1000ft before doing the level turn onto the downwind leg. (APT = Attitude, Power, Trim.)


If you go onto the landing part of the circuit, you will need to do descending turns. First a flat turn onto base leg, then PAT to start to descend, then a descending turn onto Final at 600ft.
.

[+TSRA]

Is there any the preference:

Establish climb / descend then initiate turn

Or turn, then climb / descend?

If both are ok, which should be learned first?

Cheers!

Both are fine, and at the end of your PPL training you should be able to demonstrate the ability to do all of it - turn then up or down, or up or down then turn. Once you get out of training and into regular flying with ATC, you may be asked to do any or all of it (e.g., "climb to 9,000 and turn left heading 270" or "turn heading 270, descend 9000", or even "slow to 190 knots, then descend 3,000'. Through 5,000', turn right heading 300.")

As for which should be learned first, it doesn't really matter. They're all core concepts that you need to learn, and it doesn't really matter which order they come in.

With that said, this is the program I followed when teaching as it seemed to have worked well for the decades that came before me:

The first lesson was always straight and level as this is the most fundamental exercise.

Then, we'd move into learning climbs and descents as that's how we get up to and down from straight and level flight.

From there, we'd teach turns so you can learn how to turn from one straight and level path to another.

After that, we teach the student how to combine them - climbing turns and descending turns. For the PPL I always focused on entering the climb or descent first, then starting the turn as this was often more comfortable in terms of g-loading for the student. For the CPL and IFR world, however, the student must learn the forces on the body by turning and climbing/descending at the same time, so I would expect them to do both at the same time. Not saying I never had a PPL student do this, but it was not out of the gate.

The next exercise was into the circuit where you use all the exercises described above. The circuit is where we perfect hand flying skills as it all happens quick, and you have to be able to move from a climb to a climbing turn to straight and level to a descending turn to a decent all in the space of about 5 miles. It's easy at the end, but in the beginning trying to stay within +/- 20' and +/- 5 degrees is quite hard.

Understand that flight training is all about the progression from the basics to advanced concepts and the reason ab-initio pilots get into trouble is that they try and get too advanced too quickly. At the end of a PPL, a climbing turn seems really basic, but when one breaks it down, there is A LOT of physics going on with the airplane, so the core components must be mastered first.

[ChickenHouse]

Most students struggle with doing turns without(!) climb/descent ...

[rarelyathome]

The first lesson was always straight and level as this is the most fundamental exercise.

The most fundamental exercise is primary and secondary effects of controls. Really understanding that negates a host of difficulties later. I would agree that the next most important lesson is understanding S&L (including at a range of power settings).

[JumboJet1999]

The one which I find a bit of a challenge to do accurately is levelling off from a climb once having reached the desired altitude, but maintaining the same angle of bank to continue the turn onto a certain heading, just as you do whilst turning from upwind to crosswind in the circuit.

I often end up about 100ft above or below circuit height, or take a loooong time to get onto the correct crosswind heading.

Any tips would be much appreciated.

[scifi]

Apart from the fact that most circuits in the UK have a climbing crosswind leg, from 500 to 1000ft. The change from climb to level flight is done using the APT method...
A... Attitude.. Whilst climbing at climb speed, and 50ft before the required height, push on the control column to reach the circuit height (1000ft.)
P... Reduce power when you reach the cruise speed.
T... Trim off the force you are pushing on the column. (generally push about two knobbles on a Cessna trim wheel.)


To make the descent part of the circuit, it is just the reverse of what you have just done, but in the PAT order...
P... Power down for descent, usually 1700rpm for Cessnas.
A... Attitude.. Pull back to reduce your speed to the approach speed 70 knts.
T.. Trim off the control column forces (pull back those two knobbles)


If you trim out correctly you can loosen your grip of the column, and the aircraft will maintain the correct glide slope and speed all the way to the runway. Just add or reduce power as needed to reach the exact spot you want on the runway.


To make your circuit more hectic, you also need to do the pre-landing checklist, Radio calls to the tower, adjust the Carb-Heat, adjust the flaps, and keep a good look-out for other traffic.

[mary meagher]

A lot of detail about how to teach a beginner how to fly up, down, turns, left, right, descending,

AND NOT A SINGLE WORD ABOUT THE MOST IMPORTANT/VITAL ACTION BEFORE TURNING! ! ! ! !

LOOKOUT!

Of course power pilots (unlike glider pilots) don't need to look out, do they? they have all those fancy instruments, and they are talking on the radio as well.....

Just confirms my suspicions about the priorities of power flying....

(Glider pilots assume you guys NEVER LOOK OUT!)

[Talkdownman]

During ATC radar training (a very long time ago) I was specifically taught 'azimuth first':
"Turn L/R heading, climb/descend"
"Route DCT XXX, climb/descend"

I don't see anything laid down anywhere but for ATC purposes 'horizontal then vertical' makes sense to me.

[scifi]

Hi Talkdownman, I've just looked at FR24 and, for instance, there is an EasyJet doing Geneva to Liverpool that has been descending all the way from 38,000ft at Leicester, and doing several heading changes whilst descending, to bring it onto RW27 at Liverpool. However it is most likely that the bank angle has been very small in all of the turns.


Also you need to do climbing and descending turns whilst in the circuit, and the only safety aspect is that you don't exceed 15 degrees of bank angle whilst climbing. I think the reason is that you are near your stall speed in the climb, and if you bank too much, you load the plane with too much G which brings up your stall speed (as the square root of the G.) Also at slow speeds 15deg of bank will give you a small enough radius of turn anyway.
.
.
No-body has yet mentioned compasses, and what happens to them in a turn or climb... Maybe that's for another thread.
.

[fireflybob]

Also you need to do climbing and descending turns whilst in the circuit, and the only safety aspect is that you don't exceed 15 degrees of bank angle whilst climbing. I think the reason is that you are near your stall speed in the climb, and if you bank too much, you load the plane with too much G which brings up your stall speed (as the square root of the G.) Also at slow speeds 15deg of bank will give you a small enough radius of turn anyway.

At 30 degrees of bank the stalling speed increases by only 7%. I think the main reason for limiting bank angle to 15 degrees in a climbing turn in SEPs is that increasing bank angle above 15 degrees means the rate of climb is considerably reduced, assuming one is lowering the nose to maintain climb speed.

One important aspect to mention is spiral stability. In a climbing turn the aircraft has a tendency to over bank so one ends up "holding off the bank" with aileron opposite to the turn. (Think of the different spiral staircases the wingtips are following and the difference in airspeed and therefore lift). This can vary a little between types but in a descending turn one generally has to "hold on the bank".

The importance of a well flown climbing turn,especially for inexperienced pilots, is that the first one after take off is executed relatively closely to the ground - 500 feet ago minimum? It's near the ground that you are more vulnerable. A bit of over bank and airspeed below the best climb speed and throw in an engine failure and you have all the ingredients for stall/spin unless prompt action is taken.

[pilotmike]

shumway76 : "...Establish climb / descend then initiate turn Or turn, then climb / descend?"


Cazalet33: "It's a 3-d environment. You can do all three at once."


I must have skipped the lesson on 'simultaneous climbing, descending and turning'. No matter how hard I try, I just can't make the plane do all three at once!

[Crash one]

A lot of detail about how to teach a beginner how to fly up, down, turns, left, right, descending,

AND NOT A SINGLE WORD ABOUT THE MOST IMPORTANT/VITAL ACTION BEFORE TURNING! ! ! ! !

LOOKOUT!

Of course power pilots (unlike glider pilots) don't need to look out, do they? they have all those fancy instruments, and they are talking on the radio as well.....

Just confirms my suspicions about the priorities of power flying....

(Glider pilots assume you guys NEVER LOOK OUT!)



As a current power pilot and out of currency glider pilot I would take issue with that ridiculous, pompous, insulting generalisation.
Some of us do know where the front window is, how to stand on winch cables, fly over the launch point at 1000ft when wings are level etc.
And yes I am aware of your prowess with your Super cub.
I wish you would stop creating a "them and us" attitude between gliders and power.

[rarelyathome]

As a current power pilot and out of currency glider pilot I would take issue with that ridiculous, pompous, insulting generalisation.
Some of us do know where the front window is, how to stand on winch cables, fly over the launch point at 1000ft when wings are level etc.
And yes I am aware of your prowess with your Super cub.
I wish you would stop creating a "them and us" attitude between gliders and power.

I hadn't bitten as the OP had asked about the climbing/descending and turning bit not about the whole sequence. I did think exactly like you though!

[Crash one]

In fact I feel considerably more strongly about this gliders versus power business than I came across as.
Most, if not all of the separatist talk comes from the glider side.
Most power pilots couldn't care less about boasting of their expertise. Basic common sense such as looking out, and also listening out are so obvious that really don't need stuffing down our throats at every opportunity.
I once arrived at my local gliding field, met by a total stranger who asked "Do you need a briefing?". I watched and discovered he had been a member for about a month! They must get brainwashed at an early stage.
Mary's attitude to "us guys" has lowered my opinion of glider "guys" quite considerably.
They make the notion of landing at a glider field wearing a fan on the front is not worth the hassle, correction HASSEL(L).
Most power driven airfields welcome or certainly accept gliders when asked, including the 20 minute rope untangling and laying, tug lining up, glider pushing, waving of arms, by the required launch crew pre take off palaver.
No doubt they think that because we line up and throttle up in 30 seconds we are obviously not carrying out any checks first, and just blunder off in oblivion!
No wonder glider pilots stay up longer, they are full of hot air!
So much for fostering good relations among the various flying factions.