C206 UK

[Flashheart II]

Hi

Does anyone know where you can get some flying time on a C206 in the UK or Europe?

Thanks

[Sam Rutherford]

Yes, try https://www.facebook.com/saltenfly/

It's a floatplane, but:

1. Just fly on land and no seaplane rating needed.
2. Get your seaplane rating at the same time - lots of fun!

Fly safe, Sam.


PS UK or Europe? :-)

[Duchess_Driver]

It's a floatplane, but:

1. Just fly on land and no seaplane rating needed.



Really...??? I asked a seaplane examiner that very question and the definitive answer was NO, you can’t.

His reasoning, perfectly sound to me, was that once it floats it is no longer an SEP(land) and you don’t have a class rating for SEP(sea).

Be interested if you can point to chapter and verse under the EASA regs to prove one way or another?

DD

(I do like your thinking, though!)

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Really...??? I asked a seaplane examiner that very question and the definitive answer was NO, you can’t.
I would hope not for an amphibian, which I find rather a frightening concept (I do have SEP(land) and SEP(sea)), although admittedly that's because of the number of people who kill themselves landing wheels down on water rather than any dangers on land.

[NorthSouth]

There are 18 C206s on the UK register (http://publicapps.caa.co.uk/modalapplication.aspx?appid=1). Most of them are in use for paradropping so probably not available for hire. But no harm in asking

[Sam Rutherford]

You can fly an amphib 'on land' without any seaplane rating.

Definitely.

[Pilot DAR]

If a single engined propeller plane has wheels under it, it's an SEP. The fact that the wheels fold into floats does not take away from that, nor invoke the need for an additional rating - unless you want to land on water.

That said, using an amphibian version of a Cessna is a less good (and probably more expensive way) to gain experience on type. The landing visual cues will be very different. If the jump outfit can put the dual controls and right seat back in, they'd probably love the revenue from some type training...

[The Ancient Geek]

What is your real objective ?.
If you want a significant number of C206 hours, for example to get a bush flying job in africa, work for a parachute club for a year or so to build the hours.

The C206 is not difficult, it is just a bigger 182 with a few peculiarities.

[Duchess_Driver]

Definitely

...again, chapter and verse in the regulations please! It's all very well saying you can, but where does it say that.

I can just imagine the sharp intake of breath when, at the board of inquiry, I stand up and say "but Sam said it was legal".

[flybymike]

Definitely

...again, chapter and verse in the regulations please! It's all very well saying you can, but where does it say that.

I can just imagine the sharp intake of breath when, at the board of inquiry, I stand up and say "but Sam said it was legal".

The law does not specify what is legal, only what is illegal.

A more appropriate question might be "where does it say that you can't"

[Duchess_Driver]

Annex 1 from 965/2012, definitions....

(72) ‘landplane’ means a fixed wing aircraft which is designed for taking off and landing on land and includes amphibians operated as landplanes;


(106) ‘seaplane’ means a fixed wing aircraft which is designed for taking off and landing on water and includes amphibians operated as seaplanes;


So it seems the examiner was not exactly telling the truth.

[Sam Rutherford]

'not exactly telling the truth' is a touch harsh.

He made a mistake. If you're able to feed this thread back to him he should appreciate the correction.

[S-Works]

I am a UK Sea Plane Examiner. Sam is wrong Duchess driver is correct.

[Sam Rutherford]

Hm, how do you square this:

(72) ‘landplane’ means a fixed wing aircraft which is designed for taking off and landing on land and includes amphibians operated as landplanes;

with being wrong?

[Homsap]

As someone previously mentioned, contact a local parachuting club with a C206, I would have thought they would be grateful for the money for dual flying, and some parachute drop pilots as I was, were qualified instructors. It might be worth checking if the aircraft have dual controls, although from my experience on three types in the parachute dropping role all did, not that I was happy with the potential of a parachutist snagging on the starboard yoke.

[Pilot DAR]

The fact that an aircraft may have additional equipment, which broaden its capabilities, does not mean that those capabilities must be used, nor that the pilot, who would like to fly the aircraft in it's simple form, requires additional qualification for the broader capabilities that the aircraft could have. Every IFR equipped aircraft I have known could still be legally flown VFR, by a non IFR rated pilot, and no one was offended, why would floats be different?

[Sam Rutherford]

Or a machine that is perfectly capable of flying at night, only flown during the day.

[ddoth]

You could then say that an aircraft with retracts can be flown by a non endorsed pilot, so long as they leave the gear down.
(I read those regs as saying if it has wheels AND floats that you need a rating for both)
If in doubt, call up your local regulator and ask.

[Sam Rutherford]

Hi ddoth,

I think that probably is the case as it happens. It's also possible you can fly a wiggly prop without a complex rating if you don't wiggle it...?

I think we're rather getting off thread (without an off-thread rating!) but it's an interesting discussion.

[ChickenHouse]

Wasn't it Papua New Guinea or Botswana all these 206ers went? According to Youtube ...

[The Ancient Geek]

The 206 is increasingly being replaced in Africa (and probably indonesia) by the GA8 but that is a harder type rating to find. The 206 will still be around for some time though.
Either way you are looking at 500 hours total time to be considered.

[S-Works]

The fact that an aircraft may have additional equipment, which broaden its capabilities, does not mean that those capabilities must be used, nor that the pilot, who would like to fly the aircraft in it's simple form, requires additional qualification for the broader capabilities that the aircraft could have. Every IFR equipped aircraft I have known could still be legally flown VFR, by a non IFR rated pilot, and no one was offended, why would floats be different?


Because the landing techniques and skill for operating a float variant are different from a land variant in amphibious mode. So our regulator has deemed it appropriate to draw a line....... Not saying I really have a view on it either way but as an examiner I am expected to follow the guidance.

[Pilot DAR]

Because the landing techniques and skill for operating a float variant are different from a land variant in amphibious mode.Hmmm, Bose...

A pilot could be qualified and suitably experienced to fly a C206 wheel plane, we all agree about that. That same pilot could then continue onward to qualify and be rated to fly the C206 as a float plane. In doing that, that pilot might never fly an amphibian version of the 206. However, As I understand it, they would be entitled to, by virtue of having the land and sea ratings associated with their qualification, to fly a 206 amphibian. Is there an additional "amphibian" rating to add to the land and sea ratings for those types (commonly single Cessnas) which may be configured as amphibious floatplanes?

I would be delighted to think that amphibian wheel plane flying privilege was considered worthy of the training in its own right, as the amphibian version of any wheel plane is very different to fly, and warrants additional training. In Canada, these fine distinctions are not made in licensing. (We don't even have a tailwheel endorsement!). It really becomes the insurers who dictate that a pilot might need additional training.

[S-Works]

You are preaching to the choir. I am not defending it, just telling you how it is. Feel free to get it changed...... ;)

[Gertrude the Wombat]

You are preaching to the choir. I am not defending it, just telling you how it is. Feel free to get it changed...... ;)
I don't think anyone would rent you an amphibian if you'd never flown one? - if you want to buy your own and wreck it that's another matter I suppose.

[Sam Rutherford]

Hi Bose-X - not sure who is 'our regulator' in your statement.

The EASA position (posted earlier in short and here https://www.easa.europa.eu/system/files/dfu/Air%20OPS%20Easy%20Access%20Rules_Rev.09_May%202017.pdf in 1918 glorious pages!) is very clear that an amphib is a legally a landplane for on land operations.

So, no water rating required.

[S-Works]

Hi Bose-X - not sure who is 'our regulator' in your statement.

The EASA position (posted earlier in short and here https://www.easa.europa.eu/system/files/dfu/Air%20OPS%20Easy%20Access%20Rules_Rev.09_May%202017.pdf in 1918 glorious pages!) is very clear that an amphib is a legally a landplane for on land operations.

So, no water rating required.

UK CAA. The type of amphibious gear has a bearing on whats acceptable to them.

[Sam Rutherford]

Blimey, so as far as the UK CAA are concerned, when operated purely on land, some amphibs are land planes and some need a rating? Is there a list?

[S-Works]

Blimey, so as far as the UK CAA are concerned, when operated purely on land, some amphibs are land planes and some need a rating? Is there a list?

Dunno, I would have to look but a bit busy flying the jet at the moment. I will look when I get home.

[Sam Rutherford]

I asked the UK CAA the question, and got the below reply (email redacted). So it seems that differences training MAY be required - but no need for a seaplane rating.



Hi Sam,

Firstly, please accept our apologies for the delay in responding to your query.
Nigel Davis has retired and the email bounced around a bit and I thought it had been answered, but I can do so now via Dave Evans, our Inspecting Officer for Aerodromes and Facilities.
He has said that it's ok to fly an amphibian from land, and as long as you don’t operate from/to the water, it’s a landplane -with the caveat that differences training may be required depending on pilot experience/aircraft configuration (Similar to flying an aerobatic aeroplane without doing aerobatics)

I hope this answers your question, but if you require further assistance please contact us at [email protected]

Kind Regards,

Adam Leen

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