RAF Poseidon - Not too long to wait?

[Jackonicko]

RAF Poseidon - Not too long to wait?

Reports suggest that the first of nine P-8A Poseidon being built for the RAF (ZP801, line number 6560) has been spotted on the flight line at Renton, waiting it's first flight. Seasoned Boeing-watchers have estimated that the aircraft should fly in mid to late October.

Previous Boeing commercial derivative aircraft destined for military use – like the Boeing 737 AEW&C were built as normal commercial airframes, and were then delivered ‘green’ to a completion centre where the necessary modifications (including structural cut outs and apertures for antennas, etc.) would be made.

The P-8A is built differently. For the Poseidon, Boeing has introduced “in-line production,” process, meaning that all aircraft modifications unique to the P-8 are made in sequence during fabrication and assembly. All of the necessary structural changes are incorporated as the airframe is being built, in other words, rather than afterwards. This removes the time and cost of building an aircraft, tearing it down, and then rebuilding it.

And though the P-8A looks very similar to the Boeing 737-800 upon which it is based, there are a host of major structural differences. Quite apart from the weapons bay installed in the aft lower fuselage and the hardpoints for weapons pylons under the wing, and the cut-outs for two large observation windows, the P-8A is built using a significantly thicker guage of aluminium skin. The Poseidon’s fuselage and wings incorporate additional stringers, frames and fasteners, while the normal apertures for passenger windows are missing.

This all means extra work for the fuselage and wing production lines at Spirit AeroSystems in Wichita, Kansas and Renton respectively, where components for the P-8A are built using the same assembly jigs as those destined for commercial 737 airliners.

To allow it to produce P-8 and 737 fuselages on the same line (despite the significant differences) Spirit has created a down-stage sub-assembly position where the weapons bay and auxiliary fuel tank will be integrated before they are installed on the line. Completed fuselages are shipped from Wichita to the final assembly line at Renton by rail.

Although P-8A final assembly could have been performed on one of the two existing moving 737 assembly lines at Renton, Boeing decided to create a third, ITAR-compliant line for the Poseidon. This meets the Pentagon's security requirements and allows for slightly stretched flow times (which are necessitated by the P-8A’s extra wiring harnesses and cargo-bay auxiliary fuel tanks, for example), but could still be used to assemble commercial 737s if Boeing needed extra capacity.

Boeing says that by implementing established best practices and common, commercial production-system tools, it has been able to reduce flow time and cost while ensuring quality.

Following final assembly and painting, each P-8A leaves Renton and Boeing Commercial Airplanes and makes the short flight to Seattle’s Boeing Field for mission system installation by Boeing Defense, Space & Security.

After arrival at Boeing Field, each P-8A is moved across East Marginal Way South to the old Thompson building (where the first few 737 airliners were built, back in the early 1960s). The move is made by night, to minimize disruption to the traffic!

Because the Thompson building isn’t quite wide enough to accommodate a Poseidon, the aircraft’s raked wingtips are removed and then reattached when it emerges from systems installation, before final testing and customer delivery.

Those with an eye for such things may notice that the RAF’s P-8As have been assigned appropriate but slightly out-of-sequence registrations ZP801 to ZP809.

The UK announced its intention to order nine P-8 aircraft In November 2015, as part of the 2015 Strategic Defence and Security Review. The US State Department approved a proposed Foreign Military Sale to the UK for up to nine P-8 aircraft and associated support, at an estimated cost of $3.2 billion in March 2016, and the UK Government committed to the purchase in July 2016.

The British aircraft will be manufactured as part of three larger production lots, and the first two British P-8s are expected to arrive at RAF Lossiemouth in Scotland (where £400m is being invested in new support infrastructure for the aircraft) in 2019. The next three aircraft will be delivered in 2020 and the final four will follow in 2021. This schedule is reportedly dependent on the pace of construction of infrastructure and may slip by between six months and a year.

On Thursday, 13 July 2017 Sir Michael Fallon, the Defence Secretary, revealed that the nine new P-8A Poseidon Maritime Patrol Aircraft will be operated by No.s 120 and 201 Squadrons from RAF Lossiemouth in Moray. No.120 Squadron will form under Wing Commander James Hanson from April 2018, with No.201 Squadron following in 2021.

There are a number of questions about the UK’s P-8A procurement, but the RAF and MoD have proved remarkably unwilling to answer many of these. Comparisons between the P-8A and the ill-starred Nimrod MRA.Mk 4 are discouraged, and there is an absolute refusal to talk about the essentially uncompleted nature of the selection of the Poseidon, and about any alternatives to the P-8A that may have been considered. Nor does there seem to be much appetite to talk about the P-8A’s performance, nor about the troubled Multistatic Active Coherent system upon which the P-8A’s ASW capabilities are to be based, while detailed discussion about the practicality of conducting ASW from high level seem to be similarly frowned upon.

Aerospace Analysis and Insight will return to these issues soon, however!

https://www.facebook.com/aerospaceanalysis/posts/756462504559910

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

Sounds promising...but at what point will the (British) Poseidon programme become guaranteed to continue? I would suspect we're still some distance from that point...

[Jackonicko]

The first aircraft about to fly, squadron number plates and COs announced, much political capital expended…. I'd say that that point has already been reached, TotD

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

I absolutely want you to be right, for several reasons, but we had got further than this last time :{

[163627]

With eight Globemaster and (originally) seven Sentry aircraft only apparently requiring one operational squadron per type is two operational squadrons for just nine airframes really justified? Or is it a little political "smoke and mirrors" in order to give the UK an apparently larger capability than it really has; are we soon to reach the stage of just one or two aircraft per squadron?

[VinRouge]

Probably to do with crew size per aircraft. Only 2 OJARs and 3 SJARs typically to write per frame on Air Mobility force!

[ORAC]

With eight Globemaster and (originally) seven Sentry aircraft only apparently requiring one operational squadron The E-3D are/were operated by 3 squadrons at Washington - 8, 23 and 54(R).

[Roland Pulfrew]

The E-3D are/were operated by 3 squadrons at Washington - 8, 23 and 54(R).

Is that Tyne and Wear, DC or state?

[Davef68]

The E-3D are/were operated by 3 squadrons at Washington - 8, 23 and 54(R).

But only 8 and 54(R) now.

I'd imagine the P8s are going to be pretty busy, you might even have one crew coming off, a quick refuel and tea and cakes refresh then back out with a new crew

[aw ditor]

Bit like Ryanair?

[Davef68]

Bit like Ryanair?

Why else use a 737? :-)

[MATELO]

Is that Tyne and Wear, DC or state?

I Haven't seen anything at "RAF Usworth" since a flyover by the Vulcan.

[ORAC]

Bloody auto finish and correct........ :suspect:

[Fonsini]

Basing a maritime patrol aircraft on a civilian jetliner - if only someone had thought of doing that before :E

[Heathrow Harry]

at least three times - two worked one really didn't

[The Old Fat One]

Jacko,

There are a number of questions about the UK’s P-8A procurement, but the RAF and MoD have proved remarkably unwilling to answer many of these. Comparisons between the P-8A and the ill-starred Nimrod MRA.Mk 4 are discouraged, and there is an absolute refusal to talk about the essentially uncompleted nature of the selection of the Poseidon, and about any alternatives to the P-8A that may have been considered. Nor does there seem to be much appetite to talk about the P-8A’s performance, nor about the troubled Multistatic Active Coherent system upon which the P-8A’s ASW capabilities are to be based, while detailed discussion about the practicality of conducting ASW from high level seem to be similarly frowned upon.

There are any number of reasons why this would be the case, but steering well clear of any sensor performance areas (of which thankfully these days I know absolutely nothing :)) there are a couple of interesting and quite separate rocks you might want to peer under...

From a political perspective the guy who ultimately chopped the MRA4, and the LRMPA role from the RAF, was Liam Fox (then Defence Secretary) A little work with Google will throw up some of his quotes from the time, which now in the light of history and the decision to reinstate the capability thru' the P8, look a tad embarrassing for a politician who has not long returned from the wilderness.

Out with politics, but directly related to the decisions made in 2010/2011, most of the focus has been the aircraft, with a little left over for the (seedcorn) aircrew. Cost and manpower wise, they are but the tip of the iceberg...save for a few dozen aircrew, and the basic NCO aircrew training (needed for other types) pretty much the whole capability (2000 to 3000 odd posts) were scrapped and the savings trousered. Even vastly "leaned" a whole ton of capability and resource has to be re-established, ten years down the road from when it was all canned.

And we are talking ASW here, possibly the single most perishable skill in the modern military (which is exactly why the RN will need to feature heavily in the re-introduction of the capability).

Off the top of my head I can think of two very simple reasons why there would be reluctance to discuss any of this, outwith the aircraft and soundbite press releases:

One is simply many challenges arising from the re-establishment of the capability will yet to have been fully resolved, and the other, equally simple, is the impending presence of some very ugly costs.

[Davef68]

From a political perspective the guy who ultimately chopped the MRA4, and the LRMPA role from the RAF, was Liam Fox (then Defence Secretary) A little work with Google will throw up some of his quotes from the time, which now in the light of history and the decision to reinstate the capability thru' the P8, look a tad embarrassing for a politician who has not long returned from the wilderness.



To be fair to Fox (Not something I really want to do) there was a little publisised interview with Radio Scotland the day after the MRA4 cancellation, where he said that the capability was needed, but the MRA4 wasn't the platform to deliver it due to the fact that no-one could say when it would be in service and how much it would cost. He strongly hinted that this would be something they would look at again once the financial situation was better.

[The Old Fat One]

To be fair to Fox (Not something I really want to do) there was a little publisised interview with Radio Scotland the day after the MRA4 cancellation, where he said that the capability was needed, but the MRA4 wasn't the platform to deliver it due to the fact that no-one could say when it would be in service and how much it would cost. He strongly hinted that this would be something they would look at again once the financial situation was better.

Indeed, I am aware...but then he also said this...

...We are mitigating the risk incurred by using other capabilities, such as Frigates, Merlin helicopters and Hercules aircraft. Operations in Afghanistan are not affected by this decision and we will continue to cover long-range Search and Rescue around the UK with a number of aircraft that can fulfil this role...

Which you will know is something of a "distortion". Although I'm not a fan either, I would point out that I'm not having a cheap pop at Fox, who was just fufilling his political function like any other, I'm just pointing out that as his star rises again, he won't want a controversial (and very short) period as defence secretary being exposed to the spotlight, any more than his weird "arrangements" with Adam Werritty (now that is a deliberate cheap shot ;))

[tucumseh]

I, too, tend to be fair toward Dr Fox. Ministers and staff are seen to speak with one voice, but he clearly wasn't comfortable with the official party line. One must remember that in this period Ministers were being serially lied to by senior MoD staff, over Nimrod XV230, Chinook ZD576, Hercules XV179 and more. On an almost daily basis these lies were being publicly exposed and Fox was one of a few Tory "grandees" to buck protocol and criticise their briefings. (Rifkind, Major and Howarth, for example. Howarth wanted BAeS in the dock over MRA4, but when presented with the truth stepped back). The culmination was Fox convening the Defence Council to get round Graydon's machinations, and accepting Lord Philip's recommendations.

[ETOPS]

Not seen this pic previously...........

https://ukdjstatic-b4d.kxcdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/DEmwEUjXoAMzAA--1021x580.jpg

[pr00ne]

What is the roundel doing there?

[Heathrow Harry]

What is the roundel doing there?


it's not a roundel - it's the push switch to open/close the door.................. that size so you don't have to take off your leather-backed gloves..............

[Frostchamber]

Don't want to rain on anyone's parade, but that's a photoshopped image from earlier this year: https://twitter.com/RoyalAirForce/status/885432395335438336

I don't think any of ours are quite off the production line yet, but happy to be corrected.

[Heathrow Harry]

And it doesn't have the

"Join up today https://www.raf.mod.uk/recruitment/"

painted down the side in the manner of every other 737 operated by a LCO I've seen......

[Yellow Sun]

It’s clearly a photoshopped image. The RAF would have paid extra to have the airstairs removed.

YS

[glad rag]

So what radar will the RAF version be equipped with?

[Shackman]

ASV21 of course, and a noise generator inside to make everyone mid tone deaf.

[Wander00]

Isn't that a slightly odd position for the RAF roundel, or am I just out of date

[Wander00]

Oops, sorry, posts before mine appeared after I posted - how odd. Probably s@dding Microsoft

[YellowTom]

That’s a very narrow door for all the food that’ll need to be loaded! No lessons learnt from the sliding cargo door on the RJ although that can still struggle with everything the champion eaters need.

[TwoTunnels]

Shouldn't there be a large US NAVYesque "RAF" on the rear fuselage like the RJ's bastardisation of the US AIR FORCE markings? (must have saved a couple of quid on stencils etc when changing US to ROYAL).
Don't understand why we didn't go with a more fitting "Royal Air Force" on the forward fuselage as other large aircraft.

[thunderbird7]

Because under the latest cost saving initiative, they will be operated by Ryanair under a pfi that will cost squidlions in years to come and the pilots will all be Russian or eastern European...

[ancientaviator62]

And Ryanair will have first call on them in the holiday season and be allowed to remove the kit without the contract requiring them to put it back.

[Wander00]

And the AEOp will sell the scratch cards for charity....

[Lyneham Lad]

Article on Flight Global this week. (https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/boeing-secures-25bn-order-for-19-p-8-maritime-patr-455306/)

snip:-
Boeing received a $2.5 billion foreign military sales order for 19 P-8 maritime patrol aircraft for the US Navy, Royal Air Force and Norway.

The USN is ordering 10 aircraft, the UK is ordering four aircraft and the government of Norway is ordering five aircraft.

Thus far, Boeing says it has delivered 78 P-8A Positions to the USN, eight to the Royal Australian Air Force, and eight P-8Is to India. The RAF is scheduled to receive its first aircraft by the end of 2019, says Boeing.

[Saintsman]

4 Aircraft.

2 new Squadrons then...

[Lynxman]

4 Aircraft.

2 new Squadrons then...
That’s four more for UK making a total of nine. There are 15 serial numbers allocated.

[Davef68]

4 Aircraft.

2 new Squadrons then...

120 and 201 (Maybe they bought a job lot of door numbers :-) ) - 201 CO announced this week.

Delighted to announce that Wg Cdr Ads Smolak will be the Boss of the second ⁦@P8A_PoseidonRAF (https://twitter.com/P8A_PoseidonRAF)⁩ Squadron - no 201. Based at ⁦@raflossiemouth (https://twitter.com/raflossiemouth)⁩ alongside 120 Squadron, whose people have already started training with ⁦@USNavy (https://twitter.com/USNavy)⁩ this month ⁦@RoyalAirForce (https://twitter.com/RoyalAirForce)⁩ ⁦



https://twit https://twitter.com/Ian_Gale/status/1089125587967533056

[melmothtw]

The latest contract notification mentioned "...engineering change proposal 4 SilverBlock for the government of the UK". Anyone know what this means?

[Asturias56]

someone pressed the Bulls*** RandomWord Generator in Word by mistake?

[RAFEngO74to09]

Just out of interest, does anyone have good gen on how the aircraft is looking in terms of introduction to service?

Is the aircraft based on CS25 airworthiness standards throughout with a good solid CAMO, or have we engineered some means to assure a PT/MAA/Boeing/1 Gp 4-way scrap into the next few years?

You can see how many ECPs there are here and the progress of OT&E on them - but not the content of each. At least those that have an interest can Google future reports.
http://www.dote.osd.mil/pub/reports/fy2017/pdf/navy/2017p8a.pdf

Also found this in a similar document:

"In April 2016, USD(AT&L) approved a revised Navy P-8A acquisition strategy which incorporated all P-8A Increment 3 capability requirements into the baseline P-8A program. These capabilities will now be developed and delivered as a series of ECPs designated as ECPs 4 through 7. They include implementation of significant open system architecture changes, ASW capability enhancements, communication system upgrades, radar and electronic signal sensor upgrades, and AGM-84 Harpoon 2+ anti-ship missile integration. Navy development of a comprehensive Test and Evaluation Master Plan (TEMP) and test schedule for the new P-8A ECP capability releases has been delayed due to evolving capability requirements, potential budget reductions, and schedule uncertainties."

[GlobalNav]

The P-8 is derived from a Part 25 (CS25) compliant airplane (aeroplane), but the P-8 design is not certified under Pt 25. I would be surprised if the British version of the P-8 could be certified under CS25. It would be a needlessly expensive, if not impossible, effort.

[Jackonicko]

http://www.dote.osd.mil/pub/reports/FY2018/pdf/navy/2018p8a.pdf

FY2018 rather than 2017

[weemonkey]

"P-8A operational suitability has declined since initial fielding in 2013. P-8A ECP 2 OT&E data and fleet-reported metrics show consistently negative trends in fleet-wide aircraft operational availability due to a shortage of critical spare parts and increased maintenance requirements.

Despite negative fleet availability and reliability trends, forward-deployed P-8A units currently report relatively high mission capable rates when sufficient spare parts, expedited logistics supply support, and priority maintenance support are available.

However, prioritizing support for forward-deployed units frequently reduces aircraft availability and increases part cannibalization rates at other fleet operating locations."

[Jackonicko]

"Despite significant efforts to improve P-8A intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance (ISR) sensors, overall P-8A ISR mission capabilities remain limited by sensor performance shortfalls."

Slightly concerning?

The Navy did not complete the planned Multi-Static Active Coherent (MAC) wide area ASW search sensor testing during the ECP 2 OT&E period due to submarine target unavailability. As a result, OPTEVFOR submitted a separate operational test plan to complete remaining MAC ASW test events during future operational test periods.

My understanding is that there is a real shortage of coherent (as opposed to impulsive) active buoys, and that the failure to complete MAC testing is as much down to this as to the lack of targets. Either way, it's clear that MAC - the baseline capability underpinning the claimed superiority of the P-8 in the ASW role, remains unavailable.

High Altitude ASW Weapon Capability (HAAWC) testing remains incomplete, too. How does the P-8A manage to engage targets from FL nosebleed without it?

[KenV]

High Altitude ASW Weapon Capability (HAAWC) testing remains incomplete, too. How does the P-8A manage to engage targets from FL nosebleed without it?Clearly, it doesn't. Like it's predecessor P-3, it would seem the P-8 would need to descend to engage a submerged target with conventional weapons.

[Jackonicko]

It's by no means clear which buoys are fielded as of now.

[golder]

The latest contract notification mentioned "...engineering change proposal 4 SilverBlock for the government of the UK". Anyone know what this means?
I think that's removing the Foreman grill and the name of the pie warmer replacing it.. All part of the UK mods.

[golder]

Clearly, it doesn't. Like it's predecessor P-3, it would seem the P-8 would need to descend to engage a submerged target with conventional weapons.
You may find that there is going to be more work on a standoff, delivered torpedo option. It's getting too dangerous for close, low level stuff.
The P-8 Poseidon Will Get Winged Torpedoes To Kill Subs At Long-Range - The Drive (http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/3582/the-p-8-poseidon-will-get-winged-torpedoes-to-kill-subs-at-long-range)

[Jackonicko]

Though the P-8 can operate at low level, it isn't optimised for that environment, and was supposed to use MAC and HAAWK to allow it to operate from higher altitude. Neither have yet completed testing and neither are operationally available.

[golder]

This is the latest I've seen
https://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/longshot-a-swooping-haawc-for-torpedos-03340/
January 11/19: Boeing tapped for HAAWC integration on P-8A The US Naval Sea Systems ...Boeing a $9.3 million contract modification for the integration of the High Altitude Anti-Submarine Warfare Weapon Capability (HAAWC) (https://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/longshot-a-swooping-haawc-for-torpedos-03340/)on the Poseidon P-8A (https://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/p8-poseidon-mma-longrange-maritime-patrol-and-more-02980/) submarine-hunting aircraft. The High Altitude Anti-Submarine Warfare Weapon Capability (HAAWC) provides an all-weather, anti-submarine warfare (ASW) weapon system capable of high altitude launch of the MK-54 torpedo from the P-8A Poseidon. HAAWC consists of a modular, Air Launch Accessory (ALA) kit that attaches to the MK-54 Torpedo. the ALA transforms the MK-54 into a precision-guided glide weapon wich operates in either GPS-aided or GPS-denied environments. Back in June the the US Navy announced, it intended to award Boeing a contract for full rate production of the HAAWC Air Launch Accessory for use in launching the MK 54 Torpedo from the P-8A Poseidon aircraft from high altitude. Work will be performed in Missouri and is expected to be finished by May 2020.


awarded (https://dod.defense.gov/News/Contracts/Contract-View/Article/1727817/) https://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/images/icons/ui/external.png
(Boeing Co., St. Louis, Missouri, is awarded a $9,276,687 modification to previously awarded contract N00024-13-C-6402 for the Air Launch Accessory (ALA) and ALA shipping container for the ALA of the High Altitude Anti-Submarine Warfare Weapon Capability in support of the P-8A integration efforts. Work will be performed in St. Louis, Missouri, and is expected to be completed by May 2020. Fiscal 2019 weapons procurement (Navy) funding in the amount of $9,276,687 will be obligated at time of award and will not expire at the end of the current fiscal year. The Naval Sea Systems Command, Washington, District of Columbia, is the contracting activity. )

[tucumseh]

The latest contract notification mentioned "...engineering change proposal 4 SilverBlock for the government of the UK". Anyone know what this means?

Don't know what SilverBlock is.

A Change is 'an alteration to the design which does not affect cost, interchangeability or performance characteristics, and which is not intended to be applied retrospectively, either by the Services or the contractor'.

An Engineering Change Proposal may or may not result in a modification. (A Change is not a modification, but a modification is a change).

That is the decision of the person who controls the design. i.e. If MoD, the Technical Agency.

That definition comes with a health warning. In 2015 MoD withdrew the mandated Defence Standard without replacement.

If it means ECP #4, that is quite impressive. But it could mean MoD has drawn a firm line, which would be unwise if using the above definition.

The important thing, for the audit trail, is that the ECP number must always be tied to any resulting modification number. Again, the Technical Agency ensures this, or the mod cannot be approved.

[Lyneham Lad]

Recent article on Flight Global: (https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/picture-uks-first-poseidon-takes-shape-in-renton-458014/)-
Boeing has mated the wing and fuselage of the UK’s first 737NG-based P-8A Poseidon, as the Royal Air Force (RAF) advances preparations to restore its lapsed maritime patrol aircraft capability.

Posting an image of its lead aircraft on Boeing’s final assembly line in Renton, Washington on Twitter, the RAF on 7 May said that its Marshall Aerospace-produced long-range fuel tanks will be installed “in the coming weeks”.

https://www.flightglobal.com/assets/getasset.aspx?itemid=77366

Crown Copyright

The RAF announced in April that its first Poseidon MRA1 was on schedule “to conduct its first flight this summer”.

Nine Poseidons are on order for the UK, with the modified narrowbodies to enter use with 120 Sqn from RAF Lossiemouth in Scotland from late next year. The adapted 737s will reintroduce a fixed-wing anti-submarine and anti-surface warfare capability lost with the retirement of its British Aerospace Nimrod MR2s in 2010 and cancellation of BAE Systems’ Nimrod MRA4 programme.

Meanwhile, preparations for the Poseidon’s introduction are gathering pace, with a three-bay hangar in construction at RAF Lossiemouth and personnel from 120 Sqn undergoing training in the USA.

[betty swallox]

In case you missed it!

ZP801, the first Poseidon MRA Mk1 flew for the first time yesterday. An epic moment for the UK’s MPA Fleet.

[SASless]

Sorry....but the "epic moment" was when the RAF got out of the MPA business when they binned the Nimrods.

[Asturias56]

SAS - I think you've got it wrong - if ever a programme was "self-binning" it was the Nimrod saga :(

[TBM-Legend]

That green on acft #1 is much more in tune with today's rainbow armed forces than hemp!

[safetypee]

For the ‘reggi spotters’, ZP801 MRA Mk1; or a sense of ironic history from a MOD minion.
The Nimrod prototype was the HS type / design number 801.

[weemonkey]

What knock on effect of the expanding investigation into legacy 737 flight control emergency drills?

Destined to sit on Tarmac until that gets sorted out?

[Davef68]

For the ‘reggi spotters’, ZP801 MRA Mk1; or a sense of ironic history from a MOD minion.
The Nimrod prototype was the HS type / design number 801.

I say co-incidence, they wanted them all to be ZP8**

[Bigpants]

Please tell me that just for once a major MOD project can be delivered on time, on budget and on spec.....btw did they pay for the "does not dive into the ground" option?

[weemonkey]

Please tell me that just for once a major MOD project can be delivered on time, on budget and on spec.....btw did they pay for the "does not dive into the ground" option?
I believe they are based on something called NG and as such does not have the dnditg system.
However, as I stated earlier the 737 line up is also under the looking glass re recovery procedures that do not or cannot work....

[TBM-Legend]

RAAF P-8's and E-7's are operating just fine...no talk of anything negative about them. NG's are not Max model..

[Union Jack]

For the ‘reggi spotters’, ZP801 MRA Mk1; or a sense of ironic history from a MOD minion.
The Nimrod prototype was the HS type / design number 801.

Or perhaps even a deferential nod towards 801 Naval Air Squadron....😁

Jack

[Asturias56]

Please tell me that just for once a major MOD project can be delivered on time, on budget and on spec.....btw did they pay for the "does not dive into the ground" option?


"The MOD has decided that as the Poseidon will operate largely over water that great savings can be made by NOT buying the extremely expensive and complex "DNDIG" option... we would of course consider a DNDIH2O option but this is not available at this time"

[betty swallox]

Sorry....but the "epic moment" was when the RAF got out of the MPA business when they binned the Nimrods.


Thank you Sasless. I think we all understand that. But it’s hard to disagree that this was a very good day for the UK MPA Force.

[Asturias56]

It was THE stupidest decision taken in that series of cuts

lets just say better a reformed sinner etc etc

[Not Long Here]

In case you missed it!

ZP801, the first Poseidon MRA Mk1 flew for the first time yesterday. An epic moment for the UK’s MPA Fleet.




Congratulations on the start of the road to getting a capability back on track. The UK has a great team in the US.

We shouldn't be that far behind you.
Cheers, NLH

[betty swallox]

Cheers! Looking forward to it!!

Asturias. Yes. But there we go. All well covered in detail here over the years since 2010. Time to move on.

[Asturias56]

I know, I know... still doesn't make it any better TBH................

[tucumseh]

"It was THE stupidest decision taken in that series of cuts"

Not if you understand why. The stupid decsion was to carry on after the end result was predicted in the mid-90s.

[Asturias56]

Lets not go down THAT story Tuc .................................... it's all too awful ................

[betty swallox]

All. This has been done to death before.

This thread is about P-8/Poseidon MRA Mk1.

[Chugalug2]

Lets not go down THAT story Tuc .................................... it's all too awful ................

Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it! THAT story needs repeating until it is accepted and finally acted upon. Otherwise it won't just be an MPA fleet we are short of but an entire air force!

It wasn't cuts that grounded the Nimrods but unairworthiness. The only cure for that is an independent Regulator and Accident Investigator, both of the MOD and of each other. The lack of which cost UK Military Aviation the ability to ensure its airworthiness, and it goes on costing both in lives and treasure.

[tucumseh]

Asturias56

I posted because this is the second thread currently running that is revising history on the reason for Nimrod MRA4 cancellation. I agree it's about P-8 and, despite this being a rumour site, there are certain facts that need reminding given a few recent posts.

[Asturias56]

I know, I know and I agree with you

But we don't need to repeat the whole horrible story (MRA4, Hadden Cave, HSE................ a disgraceful record even by the low standards of the UK MoD) over and over - it comes up every 3 months or so on here so it isn't forgotten

[Chugalug2]

All. This has been done to death before.

Over 100 at the last count. It is as though a third officer on the Titanic, in charge of a promenade deck, derided talk of a bunker fire raging since the ship was delivered and seriously compromising the vessel's structural integrity. "Never mind about all that, I've got deck chairs to rearrange!".

The first P in PPRuNe stands for Professional. We really should be doing better, shouldn't we?

[A and C]

Please tell me that just for once a major MOD project can be delivered on time, on budget and on spec.....btw did they pay for the "does not dive into the ground" option?

Any pilot flying a Boeing 737 variant needs to be aquatinted with the “Rollercoaster” it is the only way of dealing with massive out of trim condition that can occur if the stabiliser trim runs away.

[Wander00]

Sounds like early days of the Canberra and trim runaway

[RandomBlah]

Any pilot flying a Boeing 737 variant needs to be aquatinted with the “Rollercoaster” it is the only way of dealing with massive out of trim condition that can occur if the stabiliser trim runs away.

Not true. All the pilots need to do is recognise the situation and then complete the Stab Trim runaway memory items that are taught on any NG type rating. Even if the trim runs away at the higher of the e trim speeds available this happens relatively slowly and allows more than enough time for recognition and action.

[SASless]

Is this what you are referring to when you say "Roller Coaster Ride"?


737 Runaway Stabilizer Procedure (http://www.b737.org.uk/runawaystab.htm#qrh)

[Lyneham Lad]

Some good news! Article on Flight Global (https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/pictures-uks-first-poseidon-mra1-makes-flight-debu-459664/?cmpid=NLC%7CFGFG%7CFGFDN-2019-0724-GLOBnews&sfid=70120000000taAm).


The UK’s first Boeing P-8A Poseidon maritime patrol aircraft made its flight debut on 12 July, with company test pilots completing a short transfer from the manufacturer’s Renton final assembly site to Boeing Field in Seattle, Washington. Online flight tracking sites show that the debut sortie lasted 47min.

Following the installation of military-specific equipment, the adapted 737-800 (ZP801) in October will be transferred to the US Navy’s NAS Jacksonville site in Florida, where a first batch of Royal Air Force (RAF) aircrew and engineers have already received instruction.

https://www.flightglobal.com/assets/getasset.aspx?itemid=78216

Boeing

The RAF expects to declare initial operational capability with its new Poseidon MRA1 fleet during 2020, with its lead example to arrive in the UK “in early-spring”.

https://www.flightglobal.com/assets/getasset.aspx?itemid=78217

Boeing

“All nine aircraft will be delivered by November 2021, with full operational capability [to be] achieved in 2024,” the service says. The type will be home based at RAF Lossiemouth in Scotland, although runway resurfacing work at the facility will require flights to be performed from nearby Kinloss during 2020.

[weemonkey]

https://www.moonofalabama.org/2019/05/boeing-737-max-crash-reveals-a-severe-problem-with-older-boeing-737-ngs.html

[TBM-Legend]

Nice looking kite. Love the transgender pink and baby blue national markings with daffodil yellow door and exit surrounds...

[pr00ne]

You see toned down national markings on a Royal Air Force aircraft, of the type common since the gloss white V-force and toned down tactical era, and you think "transgender pink?" Weird...

[AnglianAV8R]

Humour... One of those resources that is wasted on some.

[jindabyne]

Anglian,

Possibly. But a strange choice of humour, given that the markings have been in use for many years now. Kiddie stuff.

Nice to see the aircraft progressing.

[stilton]

Nice looking aircraft but I’m a bit puzzled by that picture


The USN P8’s have a noticeable ‘blister’ on the side of both engine nacelles, I believe this is to accommodate larger and / or additional electrical generators


Not apparent in the photo of the RAF aircraft

[Asturias56]

crew have exercise bikes with generators fitted in the fuselage and will pedal while working..............

[ftrplt]

generator blister is on the left side of both engines

[c52]

no winglets?

[rattman]

Nice looking aircraft but I’m a bit puzzled by that picture


The USN P8’s have a noticeable ‘blister’ on the side of both engine nacelles, I believe this is to accommodate larger and / or additional electrical generators


Not apparent in the photo of the RAF aircraft

Might also be part of the military equipment to be installed, the plane is built in renton, then flown to seatle where the 'military' equipment is installed

[melmothtw]

no winglets?

P-8 doesnt have winglets, but has racked-back wingtips instead. They both do the same job, but winglets would be prone to iceing at some of the non-airliner altitudes the P-8 operates at, and while the racked-back wingtips make the wingspan slightly longer compared to winglets, lack of space isn't an issue on the military airfields they operate from.

[N707ZS]

Amazed the MOD hadn't bought the 737MAX version, you know where that would have got us.

[c52]

Thanks for your response.

[BEagle]

When it was decided that our VC10Ks should be repainted in 'John Major Grey' rather than hemp, ZA149, the first one to be repainted, looked awful with a wedgewood blue cheat line, including along the engine nacelles. The 'blue vein' as it became known.... The aircraft also had white lettering and 'they' were told to try again! So the blue vein and white lettering were changed to dark grey, which looked far better!

Presumably the grey paint was the result of there being far fewer of Pusser's war canoes to paint, so the MoD had sheds full of grey paint going cheap?

[CAEBr]

generator blister is on the left side of both engines

Correct. The port engine cowling bulge can be seen below.

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1360x906/img_0264_6e3f02d7fdcd0e38f922dd58703ed4b8584b4cd1.jpg

CAEBr

[weemonkey]

Amazed the MOD hadn't bought the 737MAX version, you know where that would have got us.

Don't be so sure about that, yet. What size/area is the horizontal stab?

[TBM-Legend]

Both USN and RAAF P-8A's have the door and emergency exits with dark grey not yellow????

[weemonkey]

P-8 doesnt have winglets, but has racked-back wingtips instead. They both do the same job, but winglets would be prone to iceing at some of the non-airliner altitudes the P-8 operates at, and while the racked-back wingtips make the wingspan slightly longer compared to winglets, lack of space isn't an issue on the military airfields they operate from.

How are they Anti-iced?

And how do they load the weapon bays or have the legs been extended?

[melmothtw]

How are they Anti-iced?

And how do they load the weapon bays or have the legs been extended?

How are the racked-wingtips anti-iced? They're not - their shape means ice doesn't build-up in the same way as it would with conventional winglets. Not sure I understand your weapon bay question.

[Vzlet]

Bleed air anti ice for the full leading edge:
https://live.staticflickr.com/6203/6134977804_f0fc7f5c57_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/am8nao)

P-8A Poseidon 167952 (https://flic.kr/p/am8nao) by Mark Carlisle (https://www.flickr.com/photos/vzlet/), on Flickr

[Lyneham Lad]

And how do they load the weapon bays or have the legs been extended?

Same methodology as Blue Steel Victors... ;)

[melmothtw]

Bleed air anti ice for the full leading edge:
https://live.staticflickr.com/6203/6134977804_f0fc7f5c57_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/am8nao)

P-8A Poseidon 167952 (https://flic.kr/p/am8nao) by Mark Carlisle (https://www.flickr.com/photos/vzlet/), on Flickr

I stand corrected, thanks (every day is a school day).

[Meester proach]

Nice looking 73.
shame non are going to be based at St Mawgan like the old days, there would be no shortage of takers

[Asturias56]

Given the frosty meetings between Boris and The Sturgeon and Ruth Davidson yesterday they may be in Cornwall sooner rather than later..............

[alwayslookingup]

Given the frosty meetings between Boris and The Sturgeon and Ruth Davidson yesterday they may be in Cornwall sooner rather than later..............
Doubt it. Given the level of investment at Lossie I think BoJo will be gone long before St Mawgan is resurrected.

[Asturias56]

The RAF may not have an option if Scotland goes independent........................

[weemonkey]

The RAF may not have an option if Scotland goes independent........................

And did you know more people in Scotland voted LEAVE than for the SNP?

No?

OK.

[Asturias56]

That was pre Boris - I understand the good people of Scotland (including Ms Davidson) don't like him... can't understand why -

[weemonkey]

Same methodology as Blue Steel Victors... ;)

I doubt it. That would require foresight, imagination, and naturally, extra infrastructure investment in drainage, water treatment/isolators.

[melmothtw]

And did you know more people in Scotland voted LEAVE than for the SNP?

Also true that more people in Scotland voted INDEPENDENCE than for the SNP.

[Davef68]

And did you know more people in Scotland voted LEAVE than for the SNP?

No?

OK.

And yet voted Remain overall

[weemonkey]

That was pre Boris - I understand the good people of Scotland (including Ms Davidson) don't like him... can't understand why -

Davidson is a defender of the Union.







The European Union.


Aaaanyway, b on t, is it an option for any other 737 types to have bleed air derived LE anti ice ??

[woptb]

Looks like the engine is a 7BE,last iteration of the CFM56, before the LEAP. I would guess the engine fan cowl bulge is for additional generator blast cooling ,rather than to accommodate a ‘physically’ larger IDG?

[tdracer]

Looks like the engine is a 7BE,last iteration of the CFM56, before the LEAP. I would guess the engine fan cowl bulge is for additional generator blast cooling ,rather than to accommodate a ‘physically’ larger IDG?

IIRC, they added a second IDG - not a larger IDG - and the bulge is for the second IDG.

[woptb]

Different to the USN Poseidon then? They have 2 times 180kva IDG/generators,a huge cost,if true!

[RAFEngO74to09]

Ex-Nimrod mission crew wanted as rejoiners - Pilot / WSO / WSOp - fast entry up to age 57:

https://twitter.com/rejoiners/status/1158686687066767360

[RAFEngO74to09]

Opportunities on the ground for rejoiners as well per AOC 1 Gp:
https://twitter.com/AOC_1_Group/status/1158778123028242433

[sandiego89]

Sorry if already mentioned, but it sounds like the P-8's radar could be quite handy for overland tracking, if say you find your MPA operating over some sandbox for example, never happen would it? ;)

Like a mini- JSTARS. "It is said the sensor is so sensitive that it can even pick up a formation of people moving over open terrain," Tyler Rogoway in 2014 wrote (https://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/exclusive-p-8-poseidon-flies-with-shadowy-radar-system-1562912667) about the APS-149. "Also, the speed of the system's double-sided [electronically-scanned] array allows for multi-mode operations at one time with near-360-degree coverage, meaning that scanning, mapping, tracking and classifying targets can all happen near simultaneously, resulting in massive amounts of data for multiple platforms and decision makers around the theater and beyond to exploit"

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/us-navys-p-8-poseidon-patrol-plane-has-neat-feature-tracking-land-targets-51537

[Not Long Here]

Sorry if already mentioned, but it sounds like the P-8's radar could be quite handy for overland tracking, if say you find your MPA operating over some sandbox for example, never happen would it? ;)

Like a mini- JSTARS. "It is said the sensor is so sensitive that it can even pick up a formation of people moving over open terrain," Tyler Rogoway in 2014 wrote (https://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/exclusive-p-8-poseidon-flies-with-shadowy-radar-system-1562912667) about the APS-149. "Also, the speed of the system's double-sided [electronically-scanned] array allows for multi-mode operations at one time with near-360-degree coverage, meaning that scanning, mapping, tracking and classifying targets can all happen near simultaneously, resulting in massive amounts of data for multiple platforms and decision makers around the theater and beyond to exploit"

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/us-navys-p-8-poseidon-patrol-plane-has-neat-feature-tracking-land-targets-51537

The standard radar for the P-8A is the APY-10 which has been derived from the long family of airborne maritime radars fitted to the P-3. The APS-149 is an externally fitted sensor in a "canoe" beneath the aircraft and is not fitted on a day to day basis.

[Lyneham Lad]

A very speedy introduction into service for Poseidon plus news on the E-7. Article on Flight Global. (https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/raf-targets-april-2020-for-maritime-patrol-resumptio-459994/)

The UK Royal Air Force (RAF) is on track to restore its lapsed maritime patrol aircraft capability within the next nine months, according to Air Commodore Rich Barrow, senior responsible owner for the service’s Boeing P-8 and E-7 acquisitions.

Speaking at the Royal International Air Tattoo on 19 July, one week after the RAF's first P-8A Poseidon airframe had made its flight debut, Barrow said: "From 1 April next year we are going to have UK maritime patrol capability operating from UK soil for the first time in a number of years."

The UK's first two P-8A Poseidon MRA1 crews have already completed training at the US Navy's (USN's) NAS Jacksonville site in Florida, while other members of its personnel have retained maritime patrol experience via Project Seedcorn placements with the USN and other nations over the past decade.

The UK's first aircraft is now having its mission system equipment installed at Boeing's Tukwila site in Washington, having been transferred from the manufacturer's nearby Renton final assembly facility. After supporting initial training at Jacksonville from later this year, the asset will be flown to RAF Kinloss early in 2020, ahead of being moved to its home base at RAF Lossiemouth, following the completion of runway resurfacing work.

"When we get those aircraft we are going to be using them as soon as we possibly can," Barrow says. Missions will include providing protection for the Royal Navy's continuous at-sea deterrent force of Vanguard-class nuclear attack submarines.

The RAF has lacked a dedicated maritime patrol aircraft capability since 2010, when the last of its BAE Systems Nimrod MR2s were retired.

Meanwhile, the service is also making early preparations for its future use of the E-7 Wedgetail airborne early warning and control system aircraft from RAF Waddington in Lincolnshire. Its 8 Sqn will transition onto the 737-based type from the Boeing E-3D Sentry, with initial operational capability planned for the second half of 2023.

Describing the five-aircraft deal – confirmed earlier this year – as a "really pacey programme", Barrow notes: "We couldn’t hang around – it's not a capability gap you can afford to take."

Barrow says the UK's plan is to "stay in lock-step" with lead Wedgetail operator the Royal Australian Air Force with regard to future updates to the E-7 system. "It's a lot smarter if we work together with them and effectively co-fund stuff going forward," he says.

"The capabilities that we will be able to build onto that platform going forward, and the capabilities that its [Northrop Grumman Mesa active electronically scanned array] radar has inherently in it are absolutely huge," Barrow says.

[weemonkey]

Opportunities on the ground for rejoiners as well per AOC 1 Gp:
https://twitter.com/AOC_1_Group/status/1158778123028242433

On top of everything else Boeing...[I ain't going]
https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/624377-boeing-code-leak-exposes-security-flaws-deep-787-s-guts.html

[rattman]

Barrow says the UK's plan is to "stay in lock-step" with lead Wedgetail operator the Royal Australian Air Force with regard to future updates to the E-7 system. "It's a lot smarter if we work together with them and effectively co-fund stuff going forward," he says.



Oh god please dont, our RAAF does an OK job of not screwing up procurement to badly. Last thing we need is the RAF whiteanting in their ear with their track record of screwups.

[sandiego89]

The standard radar for the P-8A is the APY-10 which has been derived from the long family of airborne maritime radars fitted to the P-3. The APS-149 is an externally fitted sensor in a "canoe" beneath the aircraft and is not fitted on a day to day basis.

Thank you for the clarification Not Long here. Sounds like the APS-149 would be a handy extra to have.

[Davef68]

Thank you for the clarification Not Long here. Sounds like the APS-149 would be a handy extra to have.

Has been rumoured as a possible Sentinel replacement

[weemonkey]

:hmm:


"



the manual trim wheels were reduced in size from Classic to NG, making them harder to turn (less mechanical advantage)

the trimmable horizontal stabiliser size was increased from Classic to NG, but the elevators were not proportionally increased, reducing the relative authority of the elevators; and

the information about the 'bunt and wind the trim wheel' trim recovery technique disappeared from documentation and training syllabi for the NG



The Classics were properly certificated as safe, by the standards of the day"


from


https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/621879-max-s-return-delayed-faa-reevaluation-737-safety-procedures.html


the questions no one dares consider is just what is the lineage of the Poseidon and what changes have been made to produce it considering the ongoing cf the 737 is turning into..

[betty swallox]

What are you on about? Why are you insistent on comparing the P-8 to the MAX? A little research shows that the trim system is completely different.

I’m failing to see your point. It doesn’t have MCAS. Not even close.

The aircraft has a 737-800 body with -900-like wings. The stabiliser trim system is commensurate with the CG and trimming requirements.

[weemonkey]

What are you on about? Why are you insistent on comparing the P-8 to the MAX? A little research shows that the trim system is completely different.

I’m failing to see your point. It doesn’t have MCAS. Not even close.

The aircraft has a 737-800 body with -900-like wings.

The stabiliser trim system is commensurate with the CG and trimming requirements.

Boeing have tried this to the extent of falsifying the certification for the latest series.

Below is a link to the STATS for 737 series.

The differences are clear. Especially the size of the horiz stab compared to the elevator.

What is less so is when the series outgrew the capacity of the manual trim to regain control even using the "yo-yo/unload" technique.

I find it interesting [but not surprising] that there is no information available for the military versions what with their structural changes and various augmentations.

Oh, and I believe mcas is used on the frankentanker, albeit with dual aoa inputs.

So who knows what else Boeing have incorporated. Or not.


Boeing 737 Detailed Technical Data (http://www.b737.org.uk/techspecsdetailed.htm)

[The...Bird]

Surely because the P-8's are all new builds from scratch at the factory, won't Boeing be fitting them all with the 'Latest and greatest tech' ?

[Duncan D'Sorderlee]

Mate, are you suggesting that the P-8A may have MCAS fitted but the USN (and consequently the RAF) have not been informed? Apologies if that’s not the case, but that’s how I read the intimation in your post.

Duncan

[2805662]

Surely because the P-8's are all new builds from scratch at the factory, won't Boeing be fitting them all with the 'Latest and greatest tech' ?

Configuration management should preclude that.

[sycamore]

Lesson 1 at Test Pilot School ;"Do not believe what a manufacture tells you about their product.. You have to prove it.."
or as `Uncle Roger ` would say `Too much time with Rollo Freelunch`.......

[Stiff Under Carriage]

P8's don't have MCAS. MCAS was fitted to compensate the larger engine fitment position on the 737MAX which was developed to compete with that A320Neo.

P8 = 738.

[Easy Street]

P8's don't have MCAS. MCAS was fitted to compensate the larger engine fitment position on the 737MAX which was developed to compete with that A320Neo.

P8 = 738.
Forget MCAS: the point being made is that the MAX accidents exposed issues with the manual trim system, which is similar on both NG (ie P8) and MAX. The R&N thread is well into hamster-wheel territory now, but in the dim and distant past I recall seeing it mentioned that EASA had specific questions over the reduction in diameter of the manual trim wheel from Classic to NG, and the consequent effect on the strength required to operate manual trim under mis-trimmed conditions. It's also fair to say there are questions over the FAA's processes and the 'grandfathering' of airworthiness through the successive generations.

It'll be interesting to see what comes out of the final reports into the MAX acidents, but despite all that I doubt it will affect P8 much - if only because the NG has not been subject to airworthiness action yet, and even if it were to be in future, the so-called "roller coaster" recovery from a mis-trimmed condition could be added back to the flight manual of a MPA without controversy (maybe not true for an airliner!)

[RAFEngO74to09]

"Our next Rejoiners Event is Wednesday 9th October 2019 at @RAFLossiemouth (https://twitter.com/RAFLossiemouth)! We are seeking ex-military personnel for P8 Poseidon mission crew opportunities. See the advert below for details. #NoOrdinaryJob (https://twitter.com/hashtag/NoOrdinaryJob?src=hash) #RAFRejoiners (https://twitter.com/hashtag/RAFRejoiners?src=hash) "

https://twitter.com/RAF_Rejoiners/status/1176827357950349312

[oxenos]

Is there an age limit? (Oxenos, aged 76 3/4, but with lots of maritime and 737 hours)

[chopper2004]

Caught this on Instagram :) Reds posing in front of our first P-8


https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/750x1334/1cdd0a36_2a87_44fe_9c53_40ed24bfc579_ee8a6129e27b2f459c8755d 9ce438cf0651a911a.png

[MATELO]

Is there an age limit? (Oxenos, aged 76 3/4, but with lots of maritime and 737 hours)

57 apparently.

https://www.raf.mod.uk/recruitment/media/3684/20190729-poseidon_crew.pdf

[oxenos]

57 apparently.
What a shame.
Why would a bunch of people who generally fly in formation take an interest in a grey maritime aircraft? Is there a plan afoot to recreate the Grey Ladies (now, sadly, a closed thread)?
If it meant increasing the order to 24, I would be all in favour. Of course that lot would have to bin the gaudy flying suits and wear proper grey ones. With D'Artagnon boots

[stilton]

Surely because the P-8's are all new builds from scratch at the factory, won't Boeing be fitting them all with the 'Latest and greatest tech' ?


I think two of them are being sourced from
used airframes

[Mil-26Man]

I think two of them are being sourced from
used airframes

You're referring to the E-7 buy. The P-8 buy will all be new-builds.

[weemonkey]

https://komonews.com/news/local/exclusive-unexpected-cracking-found-on-critical-boeing-737ng-equipment



just the bits that hold the wings on. That's all.

[Bing]

https://komonews.com/news/local/exclusive-unexpected-cracking-found-on-critical-boeing-737ng-equipment



just the bits that hold the wings on. That's all.

They do say it doesn't affect the P-8 or the 737 Max. Although in the case of the latter I'd imagine it's hard to develop fatigue cracks in something that isn't being used.

[pr00ne]

Bing,

"...​​​​​​it's hard to develop fatigue cracks in something that isn't being used."

Oh I don't know, they found fatigue cracks in Valiant main spars in store that had never been used during the Valiant grounding.

[weemonkey]

If they are saying that Max doesn't have pickle forks that's quite a change....P8 etc-military- doesn't matter until wings start coming off ???

[betty swallox]

Different bits, dear chap.

[weemonkey]

I certainly hope so, but having read the "pickle fork" thread and the revelations within, I wouldn't be quite so smug re boeing supplied product information at the moment...

[Nige321]

Roll up, roll up...!

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x2000/eftunsnw4aahdr9_cd94f15b48456a0aa8e0755e337d18a3ffb83f1d.jpg

[betty swallox]

Wee Monkey. Oh please. There’s no being “smug”. I quote a bare fact. If you know otherwise, please do tell.

[Chris Kebab]

Roll up, roll up...!

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x2000/eftunsnw4aahdr9_cd94f15b48456a0aa8e0755e337d18a3ffb83f1d.jpg
.....anyone know if there's free food?

[BlackIsle]

anyone know if there's free food?

Bowls of Honkers Stew perhaps......

[weemonkey]

Wee Monkey. Oh please. There’s no being “smug”. I quote a bare fact. If you know otherwise, please do tell.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_P-8_Poseidon

derivative of 737-800 ERX (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_P-8_Poseidon)


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_737_Next_Generation

What is your information?

[betty swallox]

You keep quoting the NG. The P-8 is not an NG. The centre section is completely different. If you care to do some research, available on open source, this is readily apparent. The “pickle fork” is completely different. You need to stop putting false facts on a public forum with wrong information. It’s irresponsible in my opinion, and factually wrong. I think you may be putting folks against the P-8 for no reason at all.

[weemonkey]

You keep quoting the NG. The P-8 is not an NG. The centre section is completely different. If you care to do some research, available on open source, this is readily apparent. The “pickle fork” is completely different. You need to stop putting false facts on a public forum with wrong information. It’s irresponsible in my opinion, and factually wrong. I think you may be putting folks against the P-8 for no reason at all.

Oh I see.
OK. I'll take your word for it then.

[stilton]

Curious to know the reason behind not installing a MAD boom ?

Especially as the Indian Navy P8’s have them

[sturb199]

Curious to know the reason behind not installing a MAD boom ?

Especially as the Indian Navy P8’s have them

It's an Indian developed boom and as the UK aircraft are an FMS purchase from the US, I guess it wasn't an option.

Furthermore the operational altitude of the aircraft means that a MAD Boom is ineffective.

[RAFEngO74to09]

1st RAF aircraft handed over today.

https://twitter.com/AOC_1_Group/status/1189281356007825410

[Chugalug2]

BBC piece on first RAF P8A here :-

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-50233941

[Avtur]

Good luck Kippers, and safe flying.

[Bob Viking]

Well done and congratulations. How refreshing it is to read a reply that is both positive and encouraging.

I really am not being condescending. It is a breath of fresh air.

All the best to those that get to fly the beasts.

BV

[NutLoose]

You would have thought they would have done interviews all over the country, Lossie is a bit of a haul to find you cannot park... says parking limited ;)

Good luck to them :)

[RAFEngO74to09]

C/S "Poseidon 1" airborne on its delivery flight to Jacksonville, FL for CXX Sqn.

https://twitter.com/UKdefUS/status/1189610811376971778

[OilCan]

Look forward to seeing you home CXX. :ok:

Fly safe.

[chopper2004]

https://www.forces.net/news/raf-receives-first-p-8-poseidon-aircraft


https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/800x450/raf_new_p_8a_poseidon_aircraft_at_nas_jacksonville_after_its _delivery_301019_credit_mod_0_2f28ef388c08c3dabadce02eea5937 446103fbb3.jpg

[RAFEngO74to09]

Comments from AOC 1 Gp:

https://twitter.com/RoyalAirForce/status/1189820733645639680

[RAFEngO74to09]

Video - arriving at NAS Jacksonville, FL and the handover signing onto the UK MAA register. Looks great !

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWE_wWDMwbs

[5aday]

No smoke then ?

[Jackonicko]

It's an Indian developed boom and as the UK aircraft are an FMS purchase from the US, I guess it wasn't an option.

Furthermore the operational altitude of the aircraft means that a MAD Boom is ineffective.

1) The MAD boom is not Indian developed, it's a CAE AN/ASQ-508A - same as used on the C295 and P-1.

2) Fly lower!

[dixi188]

Why no escape slide on the door?

[OvertHawk]

Why no escape slide on the door?

I would guess because it's a military aircraft where those on board can reasonably be considered to be fit enough and properly trained to evacuate using emergency ladders / ropes etc.

This saves the weight, cost, complexity and risk of door slides.

I could be wrong.

[Mil-26Man]

Looks great !

Looks like an airliner.

[taxydual]

So did the Nimrod.

[Mil-26Man]

The Nimrod looked as much like an airliner as the E-3 does.

[taxydual]

Maybe, apart from the revolving roof rack..............

[Roland Pulfrew]

Just in time by the look of it:

Russian Deployment (https://thebarentsobserver.com/en/security/2019/10/russian-northern-fleet-massive-submarine-show)

[sturb199]

1) The MAD boom is not Indian developed, it's a CAE AN/ASQ-508A - same as used on the C295 and P-1.

2) Fly lower!

Whilst the kit may be CAE AN/ASQ-508A the task of adding it to the P-8A and therefore the task of certifying it fell on the Indians as they are the only ones that wanted it!

Fly lower?? The air frame/engine isn't optimised for it, simples!!!!

[Davef68]

Whilst the kit may be CAE AN/ASQ-508A the task of adding it to the P-8A and therefore the task of certifying it fell on the Indians as they are the only ones that wanted it!

Fly lower?? The air frame/engine isn't optimised for it, simples!!!!

Does the Indian Neptune have the same senor suite as the US/UK/Aus ones? Or is it an 'export' version?

[pr00ne]

Davef68,

Neptune?

[Headstone]

I suppose Dave F68 was possibly referring to this healine in an Asian area newspaper "The Diplomat"India Approves Procurement of 10 More P-8I Maritime Patrol Aircraft

The Indian Ministry of Defense reportedly greenlit the acquisition of 10 more P-8I Neptune sub-hunting planes

Not that I know owt about coastal.

[ASRAAMTOO]

Once upon a time all maritime patrol aircraft had a MAD boom. Now the main players dont seem to think its a requirement. Have other sensors improved sufficiently that specifying an aircraft that can fly low enough to use a MAD is superflous or is it just down to cash ( or plastic submarines :-) )

[Yellow Sun]

Once upon a time all maritime patrol aircraft had a MAD boom. Now the main players dont seem to think its a requirement. Have other sensors improved sufficiently that specifying an aircraft that can fly low enough to use a MAD is superflous or is it just down to cash ( or plastic submarines :-) )

Maybe there's a clue in the fact that Autolycus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autolycus_(submarine_detector)) is no longer fitted either.

YS

[Davef68]

Davef68,

Neptune?

The Indians call the P-8I Neptune

[Mil-26Man]

Once upon a time all maritime patrol aircraft had a MAD boom. Now the main players dont seem to think its a requirement.

I'd suggest it's the main player (singular) that doesn't think it's a requirement (or at least didn't when the requirement was drawn up). The rest (UK included) have just had to go along with it as they are buying US kit off the shelf. We certainly saw it as a requirement when we developed the MRA4.

[Radley]

MIL26-MAN, I think you need to read between the lines of previous posts for your answer.

[Nomad2]

I've seen operational Indian Navy P-8s with Harpoon missiles on underwing pylons.
Are the RAF aircraft similarly equipped?

[VinRouge]

I've seen operational Indian Navy P-8s with Harpoon missiles on underwing pylons.
Are the RAF aircraft similarly equipped?
with 1553 and some development cash, it could probably do stormshadow too. Not much chance of that with the 1 Gp mafia though!

Imagine Libya without a single AAR bracket and the ability to make yourself a brew and take a p1ss in a toilet on the way home?

[ASRAAMTOO]

Maybe there's a clue in the fact that Autolycus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autolycus_(submarine_detector)) is no longer fitted either.

YS

Not really, I know subs can run deeper now but lots of folks still use diesel subs.

[pasta]

Not really, I know subs can run deeper now but lots of folks still use diesel subs.
Bit of a guess (I have no professional expertise in this area) but how important would MAD be to you if some of your targets weren't made of steel?

[Davef68]

with 1553 and some development cash, it could probably do stormshadow too. Not much chance of that with the 1 Gp mafia though!

Imagine Libya without a single AAR bracket and the ability to make yourself a brew and take a p1ss in a toilet on the way home?


Like this but replace with Poseidon?

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1024x585/mra4_storm_shadow_13ba382f846e13bf98456d55c4b43b77e6b26d1a.j pg

[TBM-Legend]

RAAF will acquire 15 P-8A's plus Harpoon and new generation weapons with 11 external hardpoints under fuselage and wings plus a weapons bay. It has in-flight refuelling capability.
FRom RAAF website:
The P-8A is built specifically as a military aircraft. It is based on the proven commercial designs of Boeing's 737-800 fuselage, but has been substantially modified to include:

a weapons bay
under wing and under fuselage hard points for weapons, and
increased strengthening for low level (down to 200ft) operations and high angle turns.

The P-8A aircraft has an extensive communications system including radios and data links across VHF, UHF, HF and SATCOM.

An internal fuel capacity of almost 34 tonnes allows the P-8A to conduct low level anti-submarine warfare missions at a distance of greater than 2,000 kilometres from base. The P-8A will be compatible for air-to-air refuelling with the KC-30A MRTT.

​​​​​​​

[scorpion63]

Once upon a time all maritime patrol aircraft had a MAD boom. Now the main players dont seem to think its a requirement. Have other sensors improved sufficiently that specifying an aircraft that can fly low enough to use a MAD is superflous or is it just down to cash ( or plastic submarines :-) )

Only ever saw one Shackleton with a MAD boom and that belonged to ASWADU

[golder]

You may find that both MAD and a sniffer isn't needed on the P-8A There are said to be sound reasons for this. I guess one of which is that the P-8A standoff sonar system and weapons. As well as working with the MQ-4 etc. Those that know why there isn't a MAD, are comfortable with the idea.

[chevvron]

Temp Danger Areas in the Dover Straits for drones carrying out 'Maritime Surveillance' until Mar 2020; is that when the task will be taken over by Posiedons?

[Richard Dangle]

^^ I don't mean to sound patronising Chev, but I think it is pretty obvious what type of "maritime surveillance" is being conducted by drones in the channel, and I doubt the Poseidon would be the optimum platform (cost etc) for that type of close inshore role in the future. I would imagine/conjecture that a number of the roles us old jack of all trades Nimrod chaps/chapesses used to do, will now be conducted by other platforms - including drones - going forwards and thank **** for that frankly as some of those jobs were as boring as ****.

Given the number of aircraft/crews, I would again speculate that the P8 will stick to its core LRMP roles and training for them.

[Party Animal]

With the original heading of RAF Poseidon - not too long to wait, I am delighted to see that the first flight of the first RAF P8, exclusively by an RAF crew took place yesterday as part of the aircraft acceptance programme. All looking good at this stage for arrival at Kinloss (Lossiemouth bolthole) in Feb 20.

[Surplus]

MAD on the P8, why have the Indians got it? Have they got less of an 'acoustics suite', do they not have the 'hush-hush' non acoustic sensors that make it obsolete? Don't they have Multi Statics or are they 'just not as good as us?' Was it a political/cost decision to exclude it from our aircraft? I'm not going to give away my background, but the step from the Mk1 Nimrod to the Mk2 ON DAY ONE was an improvement (apart from the CAMBS!). The step from my last platform to the P8 was several decades back. Nothing to do with politics or company spiel, just an operator. Stand off sonar? Are we talking Littoral or 'Blue water', cos I'd love to see your clear RF channels in the Littoral environment at altitude!(even if they occupy 50% of the original bandwidth.) Please forgive me if you think that I'm not glad we're getting the P8, at least this is a foot in the door and the seedcorn guys have got something to go back to. As for the Sarbe/Autolocus switch argument... grow up.. I doubt many of you were around on the MK1 days to have even seen it! And if you were :ok:

[bigsmelly]

Lots of interesting public domain info out there:

https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/navy-ships/a28724/submarine-sonar-soks/
https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2017/08/quantum-magnetometer-arrays-for-magnetic-detection-of-submarines.html

[Surplus]

You may find that both MAD and a sniffer isn't needed on the P-8A There are said to be sound reasons for this. I guess one of which is that the P-8A standoff sonar system and weapons. As well as working with the MQ-4 etc. Those that know why there isn't a MAD, are comfortable with the idea.
Sorry, 37 years in ASW and I can't think of a single 'comfortable' idea! Autolocus, yes, that was a suspicious premise on day one of my first OCU. The Indians have deemed that MAD is necessary, 'Those that know'. what a wonderful phrase that is, it assumes that any contrary view is null and void, not worth looking at. I can't go into my background, but I'm really getting hacked off with people who should know better. I can understand if you've taken 'the company $', but please, leave the rest of the Kipper Fleet out of your justifications.

[Asturias56]

"MAD on the P8, why have the Indians got it?"

Perhaps because they have different challenges to the RAF in the N Atlantic - their "targets" are (maybe) afew, noisy, Chinese SSN's and whatever Pakistan, Iran and Burma have as submarines.

Slightly different from the challenge faced by the UK I'd have thought

[Surplus]

Sorry but a sub is a sub, oceanography is oceanography, noisy Chinese SSN, Pakistan and Burma, sorry Bud, but I've spent more time on top of Russian nucs than you've had hot dinners. An acoustics operator

[MFC_Fly]

Sorry but a sub is a sub, oceanography is oceanography, noisy Chinese SSN, Pakistan and Burma, sorry Bud, but I've spent more time on top of Russian nucs than you've had hot dinners. An acoustics operator

My hero...
:rolleyes:

[Countdown begins]

My hero...
:rolleyes:
You have a sheltered life. My money is that the UK wanted off the shelf, the cheapest ticket to the show. Subs are mainly made with steel, so hot or cold water they are exactly the same, but saving a $m or 2 is my guess.

[Asturias56]

Possibly to keep as similar a fit as possible to the US? They don't bother with MAD on the P-8 - I seem to remember some discussion at the time it first flew on this but they answer seemed to be it wasn't going to spend much time at low level IIRC.

[chevvron]

So did the Nimrod.
But Nimrod could shut down 2 engines to loiter; try that with Posiedonhttps://www.pprune.org/images/icons/46.gif

[Shackman]

ISTR it was tried with all four engines shut down ;)

[aw ditor]

Thought it was three?

[tdracer]

But Nimrod could shut down 2 engines to loiter; try that with Posiedonhttps://www.pprune.org/images/icons/46.gif

Shutting down an engine on a modern jet hurts fuel burn and time on station. If you shutdown all engines, fuel burn is impressive but time on station becomes horrid.

[golder]

Sorry, 37 years in ASW and I can't think of a single 'comfortable' idea! Autolocus, yes, that was a suspicious premise on day one of my first OCU. The Indians have deemed that MAD is necessary, 'Those that know'. what a wonderful phrase that is, it assumes that any contrary view is null and void, not worth looking at. I can't go into my background, but I'm really getting hacked off with people who should know better. I can understand if you've taken 'the company $', but please, leave the rest of the Kipper Fleet out of your justifications.
'Those that know' was a new US personnel to the P-8. I have no reasons to doubt him. He clearly stated this on a USN forum. If you had a classified brief on the P-8. You are welcome to call him out.

[golder]

Lots of interesting public domain info out there:

https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/navy-ships/a28724/submarine-sonar-soks/
https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2017/08/quantum-magnetometer-arrays-for-magnetic-detection-of-submarines.html
The first link mentioned laser. Some 20 years ago the Aussies mounted their depth sounding laser on a US P-3. It would be interesting to see where this tech has reached.
https://www.dst.defence.gov.au/innovation/laser-airborne-depth-sounder-lads
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1000x621/final_flight_lads_0c2052dfaffe89956a39f2e18c107cce94bea35a.j pg

[betty swallox]

Party Animal! Great post. Lovely to see some positivity on here.

The first flight took place at NAS Jax on Wednesday. A mix of 54 Sqn and CXX aircrew. I heard that the flight went swimmingly, with no issues. Fantastic to see an RAF roundel on an MPA again!!

[Asturias56]

God knows we've waited long enough to see that idiotic policy finally laid to rest..................

[Duncan D'Sorderlee]

Great effort, mate. Back in the game!

Duncs 👍

[Mogwi]

Party Animal! Great post. Lovely to see some positivity on here.

The first flight took place at NAS Jax on Wednesday. A mix of 54 Sqn and CXX aircrew. I heard that the flight went swimmingly, with no issues. Fantastic to see an RAF roundel on an MPA again!!


SWIMMINGLY is possibly not quite what one needs from an MPA!

[MFC_Fly]

You have a sheltered life.
I was being sarcastic :rolleyes:

[Dan Gerous]

First RAF P8 arriving at Kinloss on the 4th Feb between 13.00 and 15.00, according to a post on Fighter Control.

https://www.fightercontrol.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=76&p=1156031#p1156031

[bobward]

One is due for the show at Fairford, according to todays press release.

[Lonewolf_50]

For Surplus:
Let me offer you a couple of ideas on why the US P-8 might not have a MAD boom on it.
They are going to leave the MAD (or other) hunting circles to the helicopters, under the operational theory that the open ocean or GI/UK gap scenario that we grew up with in the Cold War (when you had all of that contact time) isn't how the requirements document for P-8 was written.

FWIW: the MH-60R does have MAD. (The MAD reeling machine's on the starboard side of the helicopter, just as it was on the SH-60B and the SH-60F).
MAD is a localization tool more than a search tool.

I have some friends (P-3 guys) who used to loved to do MAD traps in a P-3; but in a combined force ASW op, rather than "one plane by itself", they tended to leave low level stuff to the rotary wing assets.Better air space deconfliction that way, and for that matter the P-3's tended to try and stay ahead of the problem ... with their on station time/range/speed advantage over ships and helos, they could.

So why would the Indian P-8 have MAD?

I'll take a SWAG on that: their operational concept includes more frequent instances of the P-8 as a solo ASW platform who needs that localization tool for the mission environment that the Indian Navy envision. And maybe some of the (other) stuff isn't in their equipment suite just yet.
As I am not in the Indian Navy, the above is a guess.
There could be other reasons.

Decision by UK in that regard have already been covered.

[oxenos]

First RAF P8 arriving at Kinloss on the 4th Feb between 13.00 and 15.00, according to a post on Fighter Control.

So after all that, it is going to be operated by the Army????

[Lomon]

So after all that, it is going to be operated by the Army????
No, it is going to use Kinloss until Lossiemouth is ready to accept the aircraft later this year.

[Ddraig Goch]

BBC reports the first Poseidon arrives at Kinloss today.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-51356381

[NickB]

Now appeared on ADSB radar site - to the west of Scotland... ZP801

[Asturias56]

This marks the end of a very sorry period in British Military History - thank God!:ok:

[TEEEJ]

https://www.radarbox24.com/data/registration/ZP801/1386357883

[TEEEJ]

Videos and pics on RAF Lossiemouth Facebook.

https://www.facebook.com/RAFLossiemouth/

[FantomZorbin]

But where's the AAR probe?

[sycamore]

FEZ,the Nimrod ones are in `stores` ...somewhere.. it`s got `plug`n play in the roof..

[Trumpet trousers]

Birds Eye better start upping the production of DCS soon then!

[nosmo king]

DCS yum, yum.

At last, the return of the mighty muncher

[cessnapete]

So the RAF Voyager cannot refuel an RAF P8? So who refuels it on a mission if required?

[pr00ne]

cessnapete,

The RAF Nimrod MR force managed perfectly well with no AAR capability up until 1982 when it had to go a little further south. How often does a MR aircraft need to refuel in mid air?

[junior.VH-LFA]

So the RAF Voyager cannot refuel an RAF P8? So who refuels it on a mission if required?

Maybe a RAAF MRTT, seeing as they bothered with the boom :E

[cessnapete]

PrOOne

Dunnno, I must ask my relative who was a TriStar/Voyager AAR pilot.
Just seems bad planning for your own AAR assets unable to service your own fleet. Presumably penny pitching on the RAF Voyager spec?

[Lyneham Lad]

In The Times today. Article, photo & diagram.

RAF’s new Poseidon sub hunter flies in to thwart Russia (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/dc874a1e-4778-11ea-a5b7-24df8ee7a872?shareToken=e5ee5ce133115ac815eba7efba17a231)

[Davef68]

PrOOne

Dunnno, I must ask my relative who was a TriStar/Voyager AAR pilot.
Just seems bad planning for your own AAR assets unable to service your own fleet. Presumably penny pitching on the RAF Voyager spec?

Hindsight is 20:20 - how many boom equipped aircraft did the RAF have when the Voyager spec was drawn up? ( 6 (+1) E-3s and 4 C17s, one of which was also equipped with a probe and the other envisioned as a airport to airport airlifter.) I believe the boom was in the early draft for FSTA but taken out as a cost saving.

[Dan Gerous]

PrOOne

Dunnno, I must ask my relative who was a TriStar/Voyager AAR pilot.
Just seems bad planning for your own AAR assets unable to service your own fleet. Presumably penny pitching on the RAF Voyager spec?

I think this is a similar deal as happened with the C17, and all sticking to the same spec. Otherwise if they do their own thing and Boing come up with improvements, any AF that has deviated from the fleet spec will have to do all the testing/certification for any mods on their own.

[Sandy Parts]

I see the Times article explains how MAD works and has drawn a MAD boom on the back of the aircraft......:ugh: Did they out-source the article to their Indian Defence Correspondent?

[tucumseh]

In The Times today. Article, photo & diagram.

RAF’s new Poseidon sub hunter flies in to thwart Russia (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/dc874a1e-4778-11ea-a5b7-24df8ee7a872?shareToken=e5ee5ce133115ac815eba7efba17a231)

Disappointing that the Times perpetuate the nonsense that Nimrod was cancelled due to a 'cost-saving decision'.

[Lyneham Lad]

On Flight Global.

US Navy plans to arm P-8A with cruise missiles, bombs, sea mines and decoys (https://www.flightglobal.com/fixed-wing/us-navy-plans-to-arm-p-8a-with-cruise-missiles-bombs-sea-mines-and-decoys/136533.article)

Article intro:-
The US Naval Air Systems Command (NAVAIR) is soliciting potential contractors to integrate the Boeing P-8A Poseidon with Long Range Anti-Ship Missiles, as well as several other weapons.

NAVAIR is also interested in outfitting the maritime patrol aircraft with 500lb to 2,000lb-class bombs fitted with Joint Direct Attack Munition guidance kits, Mk62/63/65 Quickstrike sea mines, Raytheon’s gliding Small Diameter Bomb, as well as Miniature Air Launched Decoys, according to a notice posted online 28 January.

[Mil-26Man]

4 C17s, one of which was also equipped with a probe and the other envisioned as a airport to airport airlifter.)

A C-17 with a probe? That's news to me - you have a link or an image of that?

[Rhino power]

A C-17 with a probe? That's news to me - you have a link or an image of that?

I suspect Davef68 is referring to the fact that the RAF's E-3s have both a probe and receptacle, not that any of the C-17s had a probe...

-RP

[cashash]

cessnapete,

The RAF Nimrod MR force managed perfectly well with no AAR capability up until 1982 when it had to go a little further south. How often does a MR aircraft need to refuel in mid air?

Yes, but we had around 35 MR2 airframes in 5 Squadrons compared with just the 9 airframes of the Poseidon. So if you want to keep a permanent watch on station during a heightened alert then you are quickly going to run out of aircraft if you cannot do AAR. Out of 9 airframes you will probably lose at least 3 to serviceability issues and scheduled maintenance.

[aw ditor]

This is a 737-800 ish' Airframe and Engines combo. As long as the engineers don't keep pulling it apart to see if it is working' OK , should attain almost airline servicebility'.

[Lonewolf_50]

On Flight Global.

US Navy plans to arm P-8A with cruise missiles, bombs, sea mines and decoys (https://www.flightglobal.com/fixed-wing/us-navy-plans-to-arm-p-8a-with-cruise-missiles-bombs-sea-mines-and-decoys/136533.article)

Article intro:-They decided to hang Harpoons on P-3s in the 80's, so why not hang a missile or two on the next MPA aircraft?
Seems a rational option to want to have.
NAVAIR is also interested in outfitting the maritime patrol aircraft with 500lb to 2,000lb-class bombs fitted with Joint Direct Attack Munition guidance kits, Mk62/63/65 Quickstrike sea mines, Raytheon’s gliding Small Diameter Bomb, as well as Miniature Air Launched Decoys, according to a notice posted online 28 January.
And why not? It is a war plane. :ok:

[SASless]

Russian Sub activity in the Atlantic on the increase?

East Coast USA no longer a safe haven for US Ships and Subs due to new Russian capabilities?

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/32087/admiral-warns-americas-east-coast-is-no-longer-a-safe-haven-thanks-to-russian-subs

[Asturias56]

How many active Subs do the Russians have?

The last numbers I saw were 12 SSBN's - but only 3 of those are post 1985 & around 16 SSN/SSGN - only 1 of which is post 1986 & 21 SSK only one of which is a post 1981 boat

They have 4 SSBN & 4 SSN on order - these are delivered spasmodically and spend a long time working up

They are spread across the Atlantic and the Pacific navies

Hardly a vast fleet knocking on the door TBH

[golder]

So the RAF Voyager cannot refuel an RAF P8? So who refuels it on a mission if required?
They would contract it out. Anyway, even if it could. You only have Voyager every other Tuesday, as it off doing private work. Your decision makers are so clever. :eek:

[golder]

How many active Subs do the Russians have?

The last numbers I saw were 12 SSBN's - but only 3 of those are post 1985 & around 16 SSN/SSGN - only 1 of which is post 1986 & 21 SSK only one of which is a post 1981 boat

They have 4 SSBN & 4 SSN on order - these are delivered spasmodically and spend a long time working up

They are spread across the Atlantic and the Pacific navies

Hardly a vast fleet knocking on the door TBH
A few nations aren't Russian centric. They have the economy of Italy. What they do have is the corrupt practice with western corps and politicians. That magnifies their power.. Trump isn't the only one they own.

[Timelord]

They would contract it out. Anyway, even if it could. You only have Voyager every other Tuesday, as it off doing private work. Your decision makers are so clever. :eek:

I am no great fan of the PFI model either, but that is not quite how it works!

[golder]

I am no great fan of the PFI model either, but that is not quite how it works!
Aussies are clever too. We sold Omega our B707's, contracting them to refuel us.