View Full Version : Authority to view pilot licence.
Maoraigh1
28th Jul 2017, 12:30
Copied from UKGA CAA report.
"On his arrival there a visiting flying instructor was concerned that he had landed in poor weather conditions and asked to see his pilot’s licence"
While I believe the airport personnel have the authority to ask to see a Pilot's licence, I doubt that applies to a flying instructor, and I'd not be co-operative.
dsc810
28th Jul 2017, 12:36
There is a thread on the flyer forums on this one of which one post seems to know a bit more and says it was a visiting flight standards inspector from the CAA acting on a tip off
https://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=104761&start=45
PA28181
28th Jul 2017, 13:19
While I believe the airport personnel have the authority to ask to see a Pilot's licence
No more authority than a car park attendant asking for your driving licence.
Unless it's changed since I did my training 40yr now only a "Constable or other authorised person" were the the only people allowed to demand to see it.
Hawker 800
28th Jul 2017, 14:36
I know both the FI that reported the pilot to the CAA, and the pilot in question. The pilot in question is a lovely guy who obviously made a mistake. He has thousands of hours under his belt, and was the CFI of at least three flying schools himself in the past.
The FI who reported him is not the easiest person to get on with, if indeed it is whom I've been told it was. I believe the two persons involved may have had issues previously, on a personal level. The reporting FI is an older chap himself, head strong and 'always right'...
The pilot, Mr Andy Hart, used to run the airport cafe at Shobdon with his partner.
They got someone out of the sky that shouldn't be flying because his paperwork was out of date! whats the problem??
He wasn't qualified to fly, had no in-date documents, its like the idiots that think they can drive cars while disqualified & with no insurance!
If a flight instructor, CFI or airport authority asked me for my documents, i have nothing to hide, i would willingly show them!
Jonzarno
29th Jul 2017, 11:22
No more authority than a car park attendant asking for your driving licence.
Unless it's changed since I did my training 40yr now only a "Constable or other authorised person" were the the only people allowed to demand to see it.
It's quite common to be asked to produce a pilot licence in Europe when passing security at airports with commercial traffic.
piperboy84
29th Jul 2017, 12:12
If a flight instructor, CFI or airport authority asked me for my documents, i have nothing to hide, i would willingly show them!
I don't know, A long time ago back at my local field I had the misfortune of being the target of a young chap whose talents were completely squandered being a flight instructor, his repeated enquiries as to where I was going, what I was doing and did I have my paperwork (all of which were none of his business) married up rather well with the attributes necessary to be a concentration camp gaurd. Trying to appease him just seemed invite more annoyance with me eventually having to provide him with a specific instruction that involved both sex and travel, which brought future interactions to a halt. He never did get that airline job he was always yabbering on about, last I heard he was running a chippie in Fife. The aviation business seems to have a way of separating the wheat from the chaff.
Duchess_Driver
29th Jul 2017, 13:15
It's quite common to be asked to produce a pilot licence in Europe when passing security at airports with commercial traffic.
Usually in place of a boarding card... no problem with that.
Capt Kremmen
29th Jul 2017, 13:34
Aviation, unlike most other human endeavours seems to generate the most a###holes !
Maoraigh1
29th Jul 2017, 20:55
If a flight instructor, CFI or airport authority asked me for my documents, i have nothing to hide, i would willingly show them!
A "flight instructor, CFI" might be, but usually is not, responsible for the airfield.
If I land at PB84's strip, I'd see him or his representative as authorised to ask to see my pilot's licence. If we're both at Longside, it's none of his business.
If asked by someone, I'd first want to see their credentials.
Thread drift: about 60 years ago the story going round at Aberdeen Dyce was that the Airport Police had asked to see the licences of the BEA DC3 Pionair flight crew. As they were entitled to do, but it was an unprecedented occurrence.
funfly
30th Jul 2017, 20:31
Talking of CFIs...
I was on the radio at an airfield when a call came in from a student pilot on his cross country exam flight who couldn't find us. I tried to direct him to our overhead and thought he might like to land at least for a cuppa to steady his nerves as he seemed a bit shaken up.
The CFI, who was nearby, grabbed the mike from me and proceeded to instruct the student not to land telling him that he had obviously failed his exam and to make his way immediately back to Liverpool where he had started. Arrogant sod.
PA28181
30th Jul 2017, 21:13
It's quite common to be asked to produce a pilot licence in Europe when passing security at airports with commercial traffic.
The asking for licences is not the the point here. As in the OP it's who has legal authority.
Piltdown Man
30th Jul 2017, 21:54
Legal authority? Police and Flight Ops. Inspectors. Other people believe they have the right and may be able to prevent you getting to your plane, but it do not believe anyone else has the legal authority.
PM
Whopity
30th Jul 2017, 22:07
Power to inspect and copy documents and records
237. An authorised person has the power to inspect and copy any certificate, licence, log, declaration, document or record which the authorised person has the power under this Order, under any regulations made under this Order, under EU-OPS or under an EASA Regulation to require to be produced.
An authorised person will have a document clearly stating the limits of their authorisation.
Jonzarno
30th Jul 2017, 22:53
The asking for licences is not the the point here. As in the OP it's who has legal authority.
To clarify what I wrote: those "asking" to see a pilot licence are also those able to deny access to the aircraft in which the pilot in question wishes to depart. In those circumstances, your point seems a little bit moot......
chevvron
31st Jul 2017, 06:58
Power to inspect and copy documents and records
237. An authorised person has the power to inspect and copy any certificate, licence, log, declaration, document or record which the authorised person has the power under this Order, under any regulations made under this Order, under EU-OPS or under an EASA Regulation to require to be produced.
An authorised person will have a document clearly stating the limits of their authorisation.
Years ago, ATC Supervisors at large airfields were issued with 'Authorisation' cards; I remember when I was at Glasgow one of the supervisors was posted out and was asked to hand in his authorisation card before he left the unit.
Sir Niall Dementia
31st Jul 2017, 07:14
Just after high viz became the latest must have in aviation I got a call from my Flight Ops Inspector, he was completing a new FOI's training and wanted to use my aircraft, and me for the trainee's final sign off for ramp checks. The following day I landed at a large south of England airport and the fun started. New FOI asked to ramp check my aircraft, "Certainly, but its' in a mandatory high viz area." His high viz was in his car, so he was sent back half a mile to get it. It was a hot day and his high viz was one of the famous CAA anoraks. His trainer and I chatted about some ops manual amendments I had just sent in and a few things that were up and coming.
Trainee arrived back."Before we go out to the aircraft I have a right to see your warrant, and certificate of approval to carry out this check." He looked blank; "Show me your blue book, please." Trainee was now sweating from stress and the fact that on one of the hottest days that year he was in the full CAA high viz. Trainer was behind him, trying not to have hysterics. "My warrant is in the car." I was about to send him back to the car when his trainer asked for mercy, pointing out that the awkward squad always enjoy a ramp check.
The trainee passed that day, eventually he became my FOI and is a good friend, but everytime we met he produced his blue book, including at his daughter's wedding.
SND
SND - throughly enjoyed reading this. Pretty much everything else on PPrune seems to be people getting overly excited and judgemental about other's behaviour and all rather dull, where as this made me laugh!
Vilters
24th Aug 2017, 21:40
Being 58, nobody ever asked for my drivers licence (yet), and nobody ever asked for my pilot licence.
Aircraft books and papers? Sure. (In France).
Insurance? Sure. (In France and in UK).
But a pilots licence?
Ha-ha-ha-, the only time that thing comes out of its plastic bag if for its renewal. LOL.
john_tullamarine
25th Aug 2017, 09:01
Memory detail fades a little after the years, I'm afraid ...
Was attending a course of some sort (probably engineering or FT related) and the presenter's discussion got onto a well-known older pilot of note (a very senior OEM design engineer as I recall) who owned and flew an equally old aeroplane of equally well-known note.
Apparently, in discussion, the older pilot had observed that his aeroplane wasn't registered. When one of the folks in the discussion commented that such could affect his pilot licence, he observed that he had never had one of those ....
Much chuckling around by the assembled folks. Guess I'm not too sure just what the outcome may have been had the Gestapo requested he produce one or the other ...
Parson
25th Aug 2017, 13:22
I happened to look up the Shobdon incident. As well as being fined and paying the CAA costs, the pilot in question had to pay a 'victim' surcharge... What?!!
hoodie
25th Aug 2017, 13:27
What is the victim surcharge? (https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/about-sentencing/types-of-sentence/other-orders-made-on-sentencing/what-is-the-victim-surcharge/)
Victim surcharge: unintended consequences (https://www.lawgazette.co.uk/law/victim-surcharge-unintended-consequences-/71546.article)
Parson
25th Aug 2017, 13:30
hoodie - yes I know what it is, thank you. Barmy application of 'rules is rules'.... There doesn't appear to have been any 'victims' - and (God forbid) if there had been, 60 quid wouldn't really have helped.
hoodie
25th Aug 2017, 13:32
But as the Sentencing Council links says, it's not intended for the victim of that particular crime - it's for a pool to supposedly help all crime victims. There was no leeway NOT to charge it in this or any other case.
But then, as the second link indicates, it's a daft macho political posturing thing anyway. :*
Parson
25th Aug 2017, 13:35
It's just a bit blithe is this context when you read the CAA report.
Anyway, apologies for thread creep.