Election choices based on defence.

[Jayand]

If defence were the main issue for you in this upcoming election (For some it will be) which party do you trust to best serve the nations interests of Defence?
Which party will spend what you want it to? MPA, Trident replacement etc etc.
Or are they all as bad as each other as I suspect lol

[smujsmith]

OK, I'll have a go, though I doubt this thread has a great deal of relevance to many military aviation subscribers.

This lot seem to offer at least some understanding of the needs of a nations armed forces. Defence is covered on Page 64. Compelling enough for me to buy a years membership.

http://issuu.com/ukip/docs/theukipmanifesto2015?e=16718137/12380620

At 62 I reckon I've had enough of the yo yo politics practised by the Tories and Labour for the whole of my life. Only to find that my real political leaders all operate from Brussels. I know they won't win, I know they probably won't even improve their current seats in parliament, that's a fault of the system.

Smudge :ok:

[mmitch]

The local Kent on Sunday newspaper asked readers to put in order their list of priorities. Defence came bottom with 1%
I don't agree with it but there is.
mmitch.

[BEagle]

Monster Raving Loony Party - at least they're honest enough to admit that they haven't the faintest idea about anything in the real world, whereas all the other parties pretend that they do!

[etimegev]

Purely on defence issues it would appear that UKIP are the only ones who have clearly stated intentions to maintain a 2% funding.

Having had a quick look at the Monster Raving Loonies a lot of what they are proposing seems to make an awful lot of sense .... or maybe I'm getting more loopy with advancing years.

In any event I'm thankful I don't have to make decision - we've got more than enough political problems back in Oz to worry about.

[ShotOne]

Unfortunately it's not close to the top of any party's manifesto. If defence is the only concern, it has to be whatever party you feel will generate the strongest economy. The 2% commitment, or any %, is meaningless if the economy tanks. Pretty much every conflict in history has been won by the side with most money.

But in terms of honesty and general appeal, I'm with Beagle for Monster Raving Looney!

[Al R]

The Daily Politics Show Defence & Security debate is on BBC2 now.

[theonewhoknows]

None of them. They are all amateurs in their understanding of international relations and the importance of deterrence - not just nuclear.

[Melchett01]

If you missed it, Radio 4's The World Tonight did a good programme from Chatham House last month looking at Defence. As I recall it, it featured General Wall, Lord Hennessy, Lord Robertson plus one more.

When asked what constituted the biggest threat to UK security they all said Putin etc apart from Lord Robertson who said our own complacency and refusal to take defence seriously.

An interesting listen if for no other reason than hearing what Lord Hennessy has to say which is always interesting: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b055jslv

[pr00ne]

etimegev and smujsmith,

Your promotion of UKIP as "the" party of defence conveniently ignores the fact that whilst Labour and the Tories have both committed to a continuous at sea deterrent force of 4 submarines, the LibDems AND UKIP have not and would examine whether the force could be reduced to 3 submarines.

Hardly the stuff of a party that "seems to understand the needs of a nations armed forces" eh?

[engineer(retard)]

I watched the defence debate yesterday and it was mostly depressing. The only one who demonstrated any degree of honesty was the Lib Dem bloke who said that there would be a shortfall with no idea how it could be filled. Both Labour and Tory ducked the funding question like Ali in his prime.

The other 2 provided some great comedy moments, the lady from the Greens who personally disagreed with her party policies and could only see climate change as a real threat. The top moment was the SNP rep trying to explain the threat from the North with the commentator trying to pin down if he meant Greenland, Iceland or Canada. Perhaps he was confused with the plot for the Game of Thrones.

[FantomZorbin]

Judging by the response of our sitting MP when he came canvassing for the Cons ... they're NFI :mad::ugh:

[Not_a_boffin]

Just listened to the link Melchett posted. I'd forgetten what a good SoS Robertson was (wouldn't trust anyone currently in that party though) - his point on complacency was absolutely c0ck-on. As was Peter Wall stating that putting western BotG in the ME now would only worsen the situation.

The moonhowling Prof from LSE who thinks that you can deal with world events by improving governance in failing states (method completely unspecified) is unfortunately part of the problem. Obviously if force / deterrence is unacceptable, harsh language is out as well - maybe a bribe and some lentil soup would work instead.....

[papajuliet]

Did anyone pick up, on the BBC challengers' debate a couple of weeks ago, that Nicola Sturgeon, whilst opposing Trident, said "we're a maritime nation and yet we don't have a maritime patrol aircraft - how ridiculous is that?"
On the face of it, she seems to have put more thought into defence issues than the others.

[Not_a_boffin]

Did anyone pick up, on the BBC challengers' debate a couple of weeks ago, that Nicola Sturgeon, whilst opposing Trident, said "we're a maritime nation and yet we don't have a maritime patrol aircraft - how ridiculous is that?"
On the face of it, she seems to have put more thought into defence issues than the others.

To be honest, regurgitating a soundbite she's probably been fed does not mean she could answer the question - "so what is a maritime patrol aircraft for"?

[Sandy Parts]

if Ms Sturgeon was so incensed about the lack of an MPA - she could have made it a Scottish Govt priority instead of the free university tuition, free prescriptions and free bus-passes for the elderly. A couple of s/hand CN235s would have been affordable and a starter for 10. However, as mentioned, I suspect it was a comment fed to her by Angus Robertson prior to the show

[[email protected]]

Admiral Lord West made the most valid point today on BBC news - he highlighted that all the other election topics, NHS, welfare state, education, economy were all meaningless unless your country had long term security.

He also reminded the BBC that reviews of our deterrent had been made several times in recent history and kept coming back to Trident as the best in terms of value vs capability. Well said!

[Pontius Navigator]

Now Pre-Blair/Brown, from a light blue perspective, I would have opted for Labour.

Now I am not absolutely clear on chronology but Labour gave us nuclear weapons, having cancelled TSR 2, the Buccanner, the Phantom, the Herc, Nimrod C17 and no doubt a fair number of others.

Apart from screwing the aircraft programme in 1957 there were the Nott cuts and the peace dividend from the Tories.

I know it can be argued that Labour left the finances in such a state, but to counter, in doing so the RAF got the kit.

[theredbarron]

Please tell me Sandy Parts why the Scottish Government should purchase MPAs out of their limited budget when the Scottish taxpayers already pay Westminster to provide all UK defence assets? Incidentally, the Scottish Government (through Marine Scotland) operate the only dedicated and equipped surveillance aircraft flying over UK waters right now, on fishery patrol duties.

And yes she probably was briefed by Angus Robertson, as it is normal for any party leader to be briefed by their specialised spokespersons on all subjects.

[Jimlad1]

"If we managed with 3 R-class bombers that could suggest 4 V-class was luxury unless there were other issues."

We always had 4 R Class, and there was planned to be a 5th.

3 is fine right up until they get old, start breaking and then need emergency repairs etc. Then you are in deep deep trouble.

[Wander00]

Election - "defence" - clearly we need a megalomaniac dictator with aspirations to take over the world, or perhaps not - I am with Adm West though, if the nation cannot defend its borders and overseas responsibilities, the rest does not add up to a row of beans

[T28B]

Election - "defence" - clearly we need a megalomaniac dictator with aspirations to take over the world, or perhaps not - I am with Adm West though, if the nation cannot defend its borders and overseas responsibilities, the rest does not add up to a row of beans
Questions (as I live west side of the mid-Atlantic ridge):
a. Does the public mood in the UK advocate reducing overseas responsibilities?
b. Do you have any of the neo-isolationist sorts that we grow over here in random crops to produce die hard Libertarians? (Ron Paul being the foremost but not only example).
c. MPA evolved in our Navy into a multi role platform. The P-3 deployments in the 00's were not like the P-3 deployments of the 70's and 80's and 90's, in terms of equipment and mission. I will guess that Nimrod's roles likewise evolved. Is there another means available to achieve the end of surveillance necessary for the British Isles? (If that's not appropriate for public discussion, please advise me by PM that an answer won't be forthcoming).

Our special relationship will hopefully survive the lack of enthusiasm our current President has for all things British.

[Pontius Navigator]

T28B, I think Joe Public does think overseas aid is money wasted. Now our aid is guaranteed and ring fenced. Quite where it goes is less than transparent to most people with many thinking it ends up in Swiss bank accounts or is used to displace domestic expenditure so they can spend money on armaments. I think India was a case in point.

I make the point that this is what people think, not necessarily the truth

[Hangarshuffle]

Back on thread, I think probably the Labour party will be better for the welfare of the UK armed forces. Say what you like, last time around the standard of living accommodation on many bases improved massively for one thing alone, in my experience. Perhaps Labour are or were just politically a little closer to the troops/ratings/cannon fodder and cared a little bit more about them (whatever you may think of Labour)? Certainly its the Labour constituencies that are consistently asked to supply the majority of the players.
But I concede defence is not on anyone's radar this time around except probably SNP's (scrapping or rather removing Trident from the Clyde being I think a firm pledge).
Conservatives no longer seem to be the party of the armed forces the way we traditionally thought they were. They have been most savage in their slicing up of the serviceman's salami.

[Courtney Mil]

Really? You imagine that some spending on infra, etc, had anything to do with a particular government or any decisions it took?

As that government's cuts and those of the more recent one have bitten, infra spending has almost stopped. Don't confuse that with government decisions.

[kintyred]

I had a long chat with my labour candidate yesterday. I asked about Trident replacement and he said it was important to retain our independent nuclear deterrent because of the uncertainty created by groups like IS (honestly!). He also said that the deterrent enabled us to have a greater say in international affairs and to 'punch above our weight'. So there you have it, according to Labour a status symbol which has a secondary effect of deterring some radical terrorists (or vice versa). I'm waiting to quiz my Conservative candidate on his views and will report back soon!

[Sandy Parts]

kintyred - better be quick. In 7 days time the politicos will be scuttling back to Westminster (or not) and won't be at all interested in talking to the general populace / great unwashed for another 5 years! :p

[Not_a_boffin]

Careful what you wish for....

Vote labour, get this

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c0/Sturgeon_SB3.jpg

Which admittedly is more than we have now....

[kintyred]

SP,

That's precisely why I want to speak to the Boy Wonder now! If he can't be @rsed to call me he won't get my vote!

[Melchett01]

You're lucky getting to speak to one of the candidates. We haven't seen any of them let alone talk to them. Other than a single leaflet from each of the Con, Lab and UKIP candidates, nothing. Zilch. Nada. No posters, placards or signs, nothing. In fact you'd barely notice there was an election on here.

With such dedication to their potential constituents, why on earth should anybody bother voting. At least UKIP put the effort in to getting names and addresses so their leaflets were addressed to a named individual. Useless the lot of them and they'll all cock it up for Defence in their own unique manner.

[Hangarshuffle]

Really? You imagine that some spending on infra, etc, had anything to do with a particular government or any decisions it took?

As that government's cuts and those of the more recent one have bitten, infra spending has almost stopped. Don't confuse that with government decisions.


Its just something I noticed in the years 1997 to 2010. A lot of the bases I worked or transited through really did improve a lot under Labour. Co-incidence? Maybe Labour are closer to the troops welfare, where as the Conservatives like to think they represent only the Officers? Or want to associate more with the Officers?
Certainly the emphasis in the upgrade in accommodation at Culdrose was aimed at JR level first (in this time period). The young officers got a really bum deal out of it (last to get upgraded). *Didn't Dennis Healey visit Culdrose when SoSfD and describe it as a slum, in the 1960's? And triggered the first rebuild (botched totally by Laings?).

[Hangarshuffle]

The polls at present seem to indicate no one party forming up a majority, so maybe another coalition forming up. The legacies of two opposing heavyweights seem to have hung over this election and almost cancelled each other out (Thatcher and Blair). We are in for a multi coloured jigsaw piece of an electoral map to emerge, and maybe in a way, in these very different days, that's not too bad a thing?
Because y'know outside of the Defence Communities as I call them, ordinary people look up and they don't see the Nazi planes coming over the horizon, or even see Reds under the bed anymore, possibly they feel the Islamic threat over-hyped, that the recent almost continuous warfighting was just a waste of money and blood,and perhaps that's why defence just isn't an issue this time around.

[Biggus]

Hangar,

As a general rule it goes something like this.

When there is money in the system to improve military accommodation, the first to be upgraded is that of the junior ranks, then that of the SNCOs, then they run out of money before they finally get around to the officers accommodation.

20 years later, when there is money.................

20 years later, when there is money..............

[ShotOne]

+1 to hangarshuffles post (the one above, not his earlier one telling us to vote Labour!)

[Hangarshuffle]

Yep, I think your right there Biggus. The officers accomm. at Culdrose was an utter disgrace for years. Yeovilton's was rebuilt and better if a bit basic but apparently not enough of it, still.
The lads was always the first/best, which is hard to begrudge of course.

[Pontius Navigator]

Other than a single leaflet from each of the Con, Lab and UKIP candidates, nothing. Zilch. Nada. No posters, placards or signs, nothing.
In my local town all 7 candidates lined up for a photo. The sitting MP with a comfortable majority should be a shoo in for the new person. Maybe the others are standing for form rather than hope.

What a sorry lot, shabby jacket, belly over waist, skinny jeans, nice dress and flip flops, Tattershall shirts and gillet. The last wore a Sun hat, cravat, blazer, fkanel slacks and umbrella. He was the only one with any charisma.

His party?

Monster Raving Loony Party.

[Hangarshuffle]

Shot I hope not, I wouldn't dare tell anyone to do that, who to vote for. probably in the past I used to lean over to Labour and even the Liberals as a tactical anti-Thatcher vote, but I'm totally baffled who to vote for this time around. If a credible one nation intelligent fiscally savvy Tory party ever stood up again I would even dare have a look at that as well, but dear old Margaret did for them/that concept years ago. Leave it to you all, we get what we deserve. I spend most of my time abroad these days anyway.
Singapore seems to have had the best leaders in recent times someone was saying on the telly-from cheap manufacturing coolies to a University educated class living in a super city in 40 odd years.....how come?

[ShotOne]

Singapore LeaderS ? Only one Lee kuan yu. Your friend Mrs T loved him!