Norwegian B787 - LGW based

[LH777]

Hi

Can anyone post some up to date information on terms and conditions for the Norwegian B787 drivers based in LGW?

Interested in salary (net or gross?)
Is Rishworth the only way to source a job there?
How are the rosters or is this a new base?

The last I heard they were basing pilots in Thailand.

I'm currently flying the B777 and wish to get back to the UK.

[Aluminium shuffler]

With the :mad:storms surrounding all employment aspects of all Norwegian operational subsidiary and shell companies, people are still interested. Unbelievable...:ugh:

[Avenger]

With just 7 aircraft and 3 scheduled this year why do they need 100 pilots?

[JW411]

Don't forget; in long haul operations, it normally needs 7 crews per aircraft to keep the aircraft moving efficiently. So each aircraft will need a minimum of 14 pilots to which you would have to allow for flights which need an augmented crew (3 pilots).

[Mr Angry from Purley]

JW more like nine-ten crews per aircraft depends on route frequency etc

[niss]

They need 23 pilots pr. Aircraft and 5 more coming

[Avenger]

Fleet average seems to be about 12 and this "old post" supported that:
http://www.pprune.org/flight-ground-ops-crewing-dispatch/513313-how-many-pilots-per-plane.html
Looks like Norwegian are going for a record!.. according to the Boeing site only 3 airframes due this year..of course that could be wrong...:roll eyes:
Deep pockets they must have:

[Ronand]

The contract for FO is 6000 eur/ month gross that includes all allowances. With apprx 35% tax in in the UK thats about eur 3900 with the current conversion rate 2850 GBP. So probably the lowest paid 787 job worldwide, and only 8 days off a month guaranteed. On top of that you need to give them 30.000 euro as guarantee that u won't leave in the first 3 years. They pay you back 10.000 eur/ year.

[Flying Clog]

I'm surprised there are muppets out there willing to sign onto that sort of cr@p deal.

Zero respect for the clowns that do.

[Deep and fast]

Simply supply and demand equation, don't supply to meet demand and the conditions will go up.

[TowerDog]

Some guys may be unemployed and need to feed their families.
That being said, I am no fan of Norwegians's out sourcing, she'll-games and the "race to the bottom" cheap long-haul.
(Didn't Laker try that? £100 across the water. Guess it did not work in the long run :sad:)

[AUTO/MAN]

Please do not take this in an offensive way TowerD, but not being a fan of Norwegian long-haul as you described, you still decided to buy a return trip with them when not able to swap buddypasses (according to your own account on another part of PPRuNe).
How does that put your money where your mouth is, so to speak?

Totally agree with you in general, have a couple of buddies who faced unemployment or the dilemma of joining, putting bread on the family table won for all of them. That said, many of them will eject as soon as possible, unfortunately only to be replaced by others.

Point being that as long as pilots frowning upon terms offered by companies decide to support the same companies business when traveling on own money, the chances for pilots trying to make supply and demand meet as described by D&F are somewhere between slim to none.
Making joe public understand the point is wishful thinking, why should they care as long as we who have some degree of insight in the business don´t either?
The fight starts from within, unfortunately with the dumbasses regulating the industry in the big common E today, 6k€ gross for an F/O and 10ísh K€ for a skipper still is regarded as good money, even in Scandiland and other corners west of the newest joiners of the free market. Sad but true.

[TowerDog]

Aye AUTO/MAN:

No, I never made it a secret that I bought a ticket on Norwegian Air.
Not that we are boycotting them, or that they employ strike breakers or :mad:
Can't remember my Union has said anything about it either, usually they are the first to ring that bell..:=
Can't bitch about the product before I try it.
Damn convenient, but lousy service and food (in Premium Class) so I won't go back and buy more tickets. I probably mentioned that before on the other forum, but maybe you missed it?
At any rate, the Race to The Bottom was more about accepting employment or a contract below Industry Standard Terms and Conditions, not about somebody buying full fare tickets on the competition.
(I would probably have used buddy passes on Norwegian in the future if I got hold of some, as they fly to the old country from an airport 10 mins from my house in the colonies. Don't think I will buy an expensive ticket however, but the lounge in OSL was nice...)

Perhaps the pilots on them Dreamliners make good money in overtime or are paid in some tax-heaven so that they doing much better than say, the non-sched freight dogs in the US who fly widebodies for 1/2 price, SkyLease, Centurion, etc.
Perhaps some Norwegian Dreamliner pilots would like to chip in...?

[Boeing operator]

One 787 was delivered this year. Pilots employed for that one already.

Four 787s coming in 2016. 23 crew per 787 (9 CPT, 5 RCA, 9 FO) gives almost 100 new pilots. All flights except JFK use 3 pilot crew.

Employment to start this autumn well in time for the deliveries in 2016.

[Shanwick Shanwick]

Regular resignations will ensure fairly constant recruitment on top of expansion. Perhaps not the best long-term choice of employer.

[Yorkshire_Pudding]

What's the deal with these new UK employment contracts they're advertising.. Same T&C as before?

[pudoc]

I was interested, but no allowance on night stops and 30k up front? I have more self respect than that.

[Boeing operator]

For every position you have a fixed allowance of EUR 1,000 plus phone expenses (EUR 50 or 100 depending on position).

[Elephant and Castle]

A company with a high risk of folding, a rock bottom salary and a history of not keeping to agreements. You gotta be pretty desperate. Is that what the pax want up front? A desperate guy that cannot get a job anywhere else?

[Shanwick Shanwick]

"Up Front" they're a great bunch of pilots and far from desperate.

Many saw it as an opportunity to extract themselves from low cost carriers, one in particular, for many others it is a way back to Europe and then there are those who were forcefully retired and need or want to extend their career.

It's not for everyone but it's an opportunity to gain a good, wide-body type rating with long-haul experience and the ability to move onto other things when the opportunities arise. Many are doing just that.

I don't think anyone joined for either the money or out of desperation. They may leave for those reasons though.

[fade to grey]

Some fantastic ignorance on this thread.
Shanwick appears to be on the money.

[Boeing operator]

Apparently Norwegian has today changed its recruitment tool, and they will only consider applications created in that tool.

Still you must go via Rishworth and register a profile with basic data, then click "apply" on the Norwegian job and you will be directed to another tool where you actually apply for the 787 position.

Screenings in July and August for courses later this year.

[Yorkshire_Pudding]

They also changed their requirements.

If rated on B777/787 but not current on the B787 there is now a 20,000 euro "training cost bond"

1,000 hours now required on a Boeing OR Airbus glass cockpit. Still 1500TT

If not 777/787 rated bond is 40,000 euro for airbus guys and remains 30,000 for other Boeing.

[victim]

A Captain at Norwegian on the 787 will net broadly the same as a 2nd yr f/o at B.A. (£4800 incl all pay and benefits)
An RCA about 20% less (£3900)
An FO about £3100.

All fluctuate due to the euro/sterling exchange rate.

Data correct as at 30/04/2015

[CaptainProp]

Now accepting non rated, airbus experienced, direct entry captains. Obviously not getting that many applications.

[twentyyearstoolate]

Well if the terms and conditions (salary) previously mentioned is true, I hope they don't get many applications. It's simply a disgraceful package for the Job involved.

This industry really has gone to the dogs. It's been very sad to see the demise of the profession, standards, and remuneration over the years. The industry has been ruled by bean counters and low cost companies, ever eroding terms and conditions. Crews working ever harder, with less and less in their pay and conditions. No job security, crap medical benefits and fatigue rife throughout the industry, yet with all the news recently with accidents they always spout the same BS, "Safety is our number one priority!" Same crap every time. Safety is a number one priority, as long as it doesn't cost money, and good conditions including Medical, Leave etc etc costs money.

Maybe a little off topic, but the Norwegian package really is a disgrace to our profession.

[airwjo]

hey guys

does anybody know the current terms and conditions
off days, net!!!! pay etc

there is so much non sense talk about this and that, nobody posted the real terms and conditions

[CaptainProp]

Did you even read the posts here? The oldest one is from 14/3 so shouldn't be that far off...

[victim]

Contract is 8 days off per month, 24 days leave. Norwegian FTL's (so no requirement to have a day off at home after 7 days). 20+ days away is common.

Frequent (3+ per month) roster changes.

Flight ops management generally a good bunch.

Upper management not so much.

On the whole a really good bunch of guys in the flight deck, so going to work is fun and a happy experience.

Everything else sucks!

[airwjo]

Thank you very much for the honest reply

Was looking for a window, to go to Europe, looks like no chance

And captain prop, I read all, this is the only interesting reply.

Good luck to all

Cheers

[polax52]

I can see the reasons for some guys choosing this option e.g. after a period of expat work, returning home. However this does otherwise strongly appear to be a back door P2F. You pay your 30k/40k bond get yourself 500 hours on a widebody at half the normal salary and then double or triple that salary going expat, losing the bond.

I guess there's nothing wrong with that but I hate to see this kind of management exploitation.

[Cliff Secord]

This is a jaw droppingly bad pay and terms. This really is less than driving a freight train for likes of DB Schenker. We have hit that embarrassing watershed point.


Less time off at home, less pension, less stability, more stress, you even have to give the bloody company an interest free loan to do the job. I can hear the barreling Norwegian laughter from here. They must be pissing their pants.

:mad: disgusting

[Boeing operator]

It is minimum 8 days off in the contract. If it helps, the average is more. Now close to 11 days and climbing, and they are rostered so not only 8 rostered and the rest standby. But, yes, the contract is still 8 days.

28 days annual leave, not 24 days (that was for BKK base which is not available anymore).

EUR9000 for CPT, EUR7000 for RCA and EUR5000 for FO. All positions another EUR1000 per diem.

Travel for free to and from work on Norwegian network if you commute. ID tickets on long haul only for you and family.

Hotels are very bad. Also transport to hotels.

Vacation rare. Roster changes frequent. Can earn some extra money to sell days off (10% of basic salary) when they change your roster. You must always agree when an off day is affected.

Great bunch of people working there, fun to go to work. People that leave, leave for the desert and some 787 operators in China, as well as Turkish. People come from Norwegian short haul, Ryanair, Cargolux, GSS (close of business), Jet2, Primera, Korean, the desert and many other places. Of course not from the major airlines.

The company can offert a quite fast upgrade to RCA if you have 5000 hours, and to CPT when you have some wide body experience. Upgrade on seniority.

Not for most of you guys. But for some it is an option.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

EUR1000 per diem?

[Boeing operator]

LSM, correct.

Regarding the bond, you need to provide EUR20000, EUR30000 or EUR40000 depending on which rating you have (what training the company must give you). You get EUR10000 back for each year you complete.

Or you can provide a bank guarantee if you don't have the cash.

[PT6Driver]

LSM
I guess that the €1000 per diem is for the whole month.

Now is that taxable?
Is that average for the whole year or just the best you can hope for during say the summer?

[C_Star]

@Boeing Operator

How long would an RCA with no previous widebody experience (but lots of NB PiC time) would expect to wait for an upgrade to full CA?

[Yorkshire_Pudding]

less pension

From what I read there's no pension.

Well, you're a contractor I guess. Still, you would have thought maybe some cash element provision for your own private fund. Still intrigued as to how the new UK employment contracts are set up. Are they paying your NI contributions for a state pension even??! According to their website you become a uk employee.

[Boeing operator]

@ C Star

Currently 500 hours wide body required (takes a year), and then on seniority. With the expansion to come the next few years (more than dubble the fleet to 17 aircraft within three years) it won't take long.

The Company says they want another 20 787s at least.

[donpizmeov2]

it's possible to have an example of roster pattern for a LAX flight?thanks

[C_Star]

Thanks Boeing Operator:ok:

What I wanted to know was if the RCA's were there to:
- keep the seat warm during cruise, or
- get WB/LH experience quickly and upgrade to the full CA...

Seems it's the latter...

[Boeing operator]

@donpizmeov2

You normally have 24 hours on all trips. That is, check-in on a Monday LGW-LAX, 24 hours stop (effectively like 20 hours in the hotel), flight back normally to Scandinavia and position to LGW on short haul same afternoon. 20 block hours in three working days.

Some trips have two nights' stop, rarely three nights.


@C_Star

RCA is a full captain in long haul. No difference in training or so. However, you are appointed as RCA. You sit in the LHS only above 20,000 ft, otherwise you function as a FO. The one that needs the landing is PF, so the RCA is not only the third guy. When you upgrade to "real" CPT, it's only a quick refresher.

[C_Star]

@B O

How about the upgrade process from RCA to CA, are there any interviews/assesments/command boards etc. involved, or is it 'automatic', based on experience and seniority?

[Boeing operator]

@donpizmeov2

Sometimes when you get to Scandinavia, you have one night there, go back to the US for another night and then back to LGW. 40 block hours in six days work.

Yes, minimum 8 days off per month, but in reality more. You do the math...

[Boeing operator]

@C Star

They have started an internal selection process. Technical test and interview, and last OPC good and references from company trainers and checkers.

[C_Star]

Thanks for the insight B O!:ok:

[airwjo]

Thanks for the perfect infos bo

9000 euros for a captain is not a bad salary to be in Europe, forget about major carriers, they will and have to change as well
This is including all allowances and before or after tax?

The hotel situation you talked about am not happy with that, hope they change that

Roster changes you have everywhere, especially on cargo

[highfive]

The Ad says operational base Gatwick on UK employment contract. Not Bangkok or Dar es Salaam !

There must be tax saving initiatives with this way of employment. for Norwegian , not you.

Its a great initiative from the company. Train an experienced guy onto the 787 then ask him to put up €30000 , incase he bails out after realising that those tax saving initiatives are illegal and take home pay is now under £4000 !

Yep its a bummer but where else to go for old guys marooned in the desert or stuck in the pollution?

[airwjo]

Well sounds familiar saw and seeing both

What you can do

Nothing nothing at all

[chinafly]

9000Euro for a captain is not bad? Wtf......

£6500 gross before tax for a wide body captain operating global etops long haul with a rating he's had to stump up Eur30k as a bond for - with no job security, no pension, no Ni and 25 days leave.

This industry is on its arse.......

[Cliff Secord]

Yep, I ran that through a take home pay calculator. Basic tax code of ten grand and called it 78k pa. A take home of £4380 plus about 500-600 on per diem after that's taxed if you're lucky. No pension paid so you'd have to take a fairly sizable chunk out of that to make up lack of company pension with a private fund. Say you wipe off 500 quid towards a pension. That leaves you with £3880 in your pocket plus the per diems.



Oh and 25 days leave of course. For a long haul Captain rewarded by crappy hotels and min rest night stops.

[airwjo]

i know, what are you talking about, believe me

especially what chinafly said

but there are no options in europe (they know that), only sandpit or lovely china, where they offer you 20000 dollars on 320 why hmmmmm

so guys, what you want to do? sandpit, china, or better stay in europe??

everybody has its own priorities, but believe me and i say again i saw both, and both is horrible, for a couple of years yes, but not for long

the golden times of aviation are over, yes still you can earn very good money, especially in china, but living there is another story, sandpit money wise the same except it got quite expensive

[Calmcavok]

What seriously insulting package. Unless you have no other option to put food in the table, why would you lower yourself, and the industry, by taking it?

Many other options for Europe, mainly commuting contracts, but at least with those you will get a decent stretch at home and not a minimum of 8 days (no matter what extra crumbs they throw at you) off per month.

[highfive]

That Korean job is starting to look attractive. and says alot about this Norwegian
nonsense

As stated before, a long term employee of the desert rat brigade, who has a couple of million in his bank can take it.

Its a steal , for Norwegian ;)

[lear999wa]

FYI: LGW based SH captains are on 2000euros more per month (gross) then the LH captains.

Says a lot about the company.

Oh and Sh guys also have a union and 12 days off per month and shortly a Lol.

[Boeing operator]

A small correction to you guys, it's 28 days of leave and not 25 days.

That doesn't change the pay.

However, it's quite simple. Go for the options or accept it. I believe the deal will change soon. They're loosing guys all the time and short haul has a better deal as someone wrote here. They will need to improve. There is a talk about a union as well.

[Direct Bondi]

"Oh and Sh guys also have a union" - "There is talk about a union"

Doesn't the LGW based, agency contract contain the clause "no claim as employee of the airline" - or similar?
Such a clause would prevent the formation of a legally recognized union as there is no direct employment relationship between the pilots and Norwegian.
If you recall, the main reason for the recent strike was for Norwegian to be the named employer, with whom a "union" has legally binding, collective bargaining rights.
Perhaps the term "pilot association" is more applicable (with no legal rights whatsoever).

[nosmo king]

Norwegian pilots please correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought LGW based SH pilots have voted for Union recognition with BALPA and OSM have accepted this position......

The union intention I believe is to get a recognition agreement signed by OSM by June.

[lear999wa]

@ nosmo king, that is my understanding as well.

[highfive]

So which what wide body Captain is going to apply?

Obviously no one from european legacy carriers, unless final salary pensioned retirees eg BA.

No one from 2nd tier european seniority based carriers, as it takes years to obtain a wide body command Eg Midland , Condor Tui etc

The money is similar to that paid at Turkish , which operates with EASA licensed captains.

There are however hundreds of wide body skippers employed by asian and middle eastern carriers who are financially independent , but who are not ready for full retirement.

EK , CX SQ have many such pilots , globally experienced guys, who's kids have left home, no mortgage, have substantial income from investments but who need a change.

Norwegian are trying to tap this little utilised pilot pool.
Most captains in this position are not unionised, are use to being employed as a contractor and have proven themselves as self sufficient employees, without a nanny union to run to when the company plays hard ball.

While not condoning Norwegian , direct entry european jobs
recognising none type rated pilots are few and far between and will never pay more than a bare bones salary from what was on offer 10-15 years ago.

[Avenger]

The money is similar to that paid at Turkish , which operates with EASA licensed captains.
Except at THY you will retain 95% of the Gross, at NAS LGW base around 52% ... Try renting a decent house/ flat near Gatwick for less than £1200 a month plus bills..as mentioned if you are retired on a FSP then it will work, or a young skipper with jet time, chomping to get a wide body command within 2/3 years. Another issue is security, with no "permanent contract" it is difficult to get mortgages and thus settle into a normal family life.. horses for courses!

[wiggy]

highfive

Obviously no one from european legacy carriers, unless final salary pensioned retirees eg BA.


Hate to mess up the recruiting plan but I think you need to change your airline post the "e.g.", seeing as at BA they no longer have a CRA of 55.

[polax52]

I think for Norwegian this model will work incredibly well. They are a training airline who will produce the LH pilots required by middle eastern and Asian companies. I'm sure they can count on new Captains to stay for a minimum of 500 hours. They then take from the bond and therefore produce an income.

[highfive]

The advert states an operational base of Gatwick, but you dont have to live in the UK, which would allow a significant tax advantage , depending on an employees position, residency and past or present ties to the UK.

[Direct Bondi]

Some LGW based pilots may be under the delusion union representation with their employer agency will ensure and protect any labour “rights” they believe they may have with Norwegian – wrong.
Remember, there are two very separate contracts: 1. Pilots with the agency, and 2. Norwegian with the agency to supply the pilots. Any recognition and collective union agreement between LGW based pilots and their employer agency, is not legally binding with Norwegian under the UK Trade Union and Labour Relations Act 1992, why? - because Norwegian is not the employer.
Before handing over union dues, I suggest pilots determine exactly what they hope to achieve by union representation with their employer agency that is legally binding with Norwegian. Furthermore, if you signed your agency contract that includes the “choice of law” as anything other than in the UK, you do not even have the right to an Employment Tribunal for any grievance you may have with your employer agency (union representation with the agency or not).
Once again, one of the main reasons for the recent strike was to have Norwegian as the named employer. Apparently, some of you do not appreciate the importance of this as it relates to UK and European employment/labour laws.
When the President of ALPA said that the use of agencies permitted the circumvention of labour laws, this is the type of scheme he referred to.
Note: DN Norway news reported today that PARAT filed a lawsuit this week against Norwegian, for the courts to rule that Norwegian is the real employer of the pilots. Link: Parat saksøker Norwegian - DN.no (http://www.dn.no/nyheter/politikkSamfunn/2015/05/04/1725/Norge/parat-saksker-norwegian)

[Avenger]

If your duties start in the UK you will be liable to UK tax and to avoid this you have to be outside the UK for more than 181 days a year and your duties would have to start elsewhere. With this LGW based contract it is impossible to avoid UK tax, ok if you live in Europe you may get a marginal advantage but most of Europe had a dual tax agreement with the UK do its just an offset and in some ways the UK can be cheaper overall especially with medical costs etc. Either way there's no way out of the tax burden . Living outside Europe and attempting a commute would cost more than the tax bill in flights and Hotels

[Shanwick Shanwick]

I hope no one takes the above to reflect the actual situation regarding taxation.

[C_Star]

So, what's the actual situation re. taxation?

[Shanwick Shanwick]

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/381705/rdr3_1_.pdf

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/381725/rdr4_1_.pdf

Obviously, the situation in the individual's country of residence will affect their overall liability.

[Avenger]

Shanwick, perhaps you would like to give us the benefit of your take on the position rather than refer us to an overseas work allowance that is not appropriate to a Uk based contract where all the duties start and finish from a UK base? agreed, the IR have a habit of making things complicated with phrases such as " non domicile" etc etc, but this LGW contract is a clear cut case, unless you can advise us otherwise?
Obviously, the situation in the individual's country of residence will affect their overall liability. as previously stated

[captplaystation]

Bottom line, not the renumeration package any self respecting Wide Body Capt would have expected up to now . . . . . and going forward ? well, the "market" (I.E how feckin dumb are we pilots :ugh: ) will set the new standards. Sign up for what you wish in the future, Congrats := :D

[wind check]

Low cost long haul pilots with ridiculous T&Cs, it was predictable!!!

[Shanwick Shanwick]

Avenger

Shanwick, perhaps you would like to give us the benefit of your take on the position rather than refer us to an overseas work allowance that is not appropriate to a Uk based contract where all the duties start and finish from a UK base? agreed, the IR have a habit of making things complicated with phrases such as " non domicile" etc etc, but this LGW contract is a clear cut case, unless you can advise us otherwise?

There are many pilots working for UK based airlines with UK based contracts but resident in another country doing just that. As every case is individual I could not begin to advise on every possibility.

I suggest you contact a specialist such as The Fry Group - Tax & Financial Planning for UK Residents & Expatriates (http://www.thefrygroup.co.uk/). They have considerable experience in the field and could give you accurate and personalised advice.

[victim]

LGW based haul pilots will, as of now, have their salaries paid in GBP. There will be a fixed exchange rate of 0.83 (approx £1:€1.2)

[captplaystation]

Similar to what was offered to the 737 guys employed in LGW through OSM. Certainly softens the blow slightly, and a useful little "bonus" to anyone based in LGW but living in €-land.

I believe the offer is the same amount, but a minimum amount of GBP guaranteed by setting a bottom-line exchange rate.

If (unlikely as it seems ) the € recovers that prevents a loss in the other direction for those whose life is conducted in € currency.

[swish266]

Hi Guys
If you are based in LGW and you commute, will you be able to pay tax elsewhere or Norwegian deduct UK tax automatically for LGW pilots?

:ok:

[tripulante521]

Very low terms and conditions in NLH: low pay,bad planned roster, cheap hotels.
Everybody is complaining , there are no trainers and it takes for ever to complete any training.
Hainan is receiving plenty of applications from NLH pilots.

[nick14]

Email through today after being ignored for over 8 months. We invite you to resubmit your application including cover letter etc.

I'm ok thanks.

[SR71]

The NLH contract was drawn up with a BKK base in mind.

I have no idea whether it's competitive with other contracts drawn up in BKK (the airline would presumably say "Yes"!) but if the airline then tries to entice you onto the same deal by notionally recruiting you for a LGW base it's hardly surprising its not competitive in Euroland!

It doesn't matter whether you're paid in GBP, EUR or bananas, this is pure off-shoring and I hope the Norwegian Governments' appeal to the EU gets the whole matter clarified, and ultimately, knocked on the head. In addition, I trust the US DOT also continue to dig in...

By all means, sign up, but the subsequent pain is all self-inflicted.

[highfive]

Did someone mention Hainan?
Good luck with this. 3 day medicals. 3 liters of blood. CT & MRI scan . Echocardiogram. Carotid Ultrasound. Lymph node examination. Full drug and achohol screening.

If you are out of the archaic medical tolerences set by the CAAC , kar pow. Off you go . Bye bye .

Norweegian are one of the few carriers to employ direct entry commanders in europe. Period.
Is it worth the 30-40000 euros deposited in Norwegians bank account, probably not.

But some will want to live the dream ( liner) . Maybe not here though.

[LNAV737]

so do have to give them 30000€ ?

[Shanwick Shanwick]

Yes. €20,000, €30,000 or €40,000 depending upon your current rating

[LNAV737]

No wonder they are hiring all the time ......who wants to put so much money in the bank especially if have a familly to support.:ugh:

[captplaystation]

Pilots :ugh: 20/30/40K to fly the carbon fibre toob, which gets you the qualif to fly the carbon fibre toob in . . . . Qatar :{ China :( what do we use for brains ? ?

[Direct Bondi]

Norwegian Bond unenforceable in the UK and rest of Europe

First, the Rishworth website states that pilots are "employed by our UK crewing company" - an employment agency leasing pilots to other airlines, specifically, Norwegian. However, there is no reference to this so-called "UK crewing company" in the Contact Us section of the Rishworth website. I suspect it is a broom cupboard somewhere in Crawley.
All employment agencies in the UK are regulated by:- The Conduct of Employment Agencies and Business Regulations 2003. Any pilot engaging with Rishworth via their "UK crewing company" should be familiar with this legislation.

I contend the bond is unenforceable for the following reasons:-
In the UK registered unemployed are obliged to seek work or have their benefits reduced and in some cases stopped entirely (JSA - Job Seekers Allowance regulations). Therefore, if you are registered unemployed (even for a week), interview for a position with Norwegian and offered employment, you are obliged to accept employment at the first opportunity or have your benefits stopped. Effectively, you are forced to sign a bond against your will. If at some later stage you decide that the working conditions are not to your liking (much has been written about the shameful management etc.), and seek alternatively employment, you are prevented form doing so by virtue of the bond. This is effectively Indentured Servitude and illegal under the UK Human Rights Act 1998 and European Convention on Human Rights.

[Avenger]

Bondi, probably if you were in a position to give a bond or cash you would not be in receipt of JSA in the first place, anyway, not withstanding that scenario and second mortgages, borrowing from relatives, etc etc. the Bond system is legal and enforceable..training costs are not limited to aviation and test cases tend to fall in favour of the contract: Example:A much more limiting clause was considered in the case of Strathclyde Regional Council v Neil [1984] IRLR 11. Here, a provision in the employee's contract required her to refund a sum calculated on the basis of her salary, course materials and examination fees if she left within two years of completing a study course paid for by the local authority.
This was a liquidated damages clause because it represented genuine loss to the employer, contemplated at the outset. The clause only sought recovery of the cost of training the employee and was proportionate to the unexpired portion of the two year period. The clause was upheld as valid. .
A clause providing full recovery of course fees even in the event that employee resigns, say 10 years later, would be a penalty clause. It would not seek to place limitation on the employer's right to recover damages for actual loss. The benefits of the course would have been realised in the years of employment following the course and the employer will have had that benefit. In this context NLH could reasonably argue that 3 years is a suitable period to recover the training costs and benefit from them.
Of perhaps more " concern" would a "contract " signed with NLH for training be enforceable when " employed through a third party" .. probably not..in this event the training costs would have had to been paid by the agency. Of course, no agency is going to stump up costs for pilot training and probably this case, if tested, would fail..

[fade to grey]

i don't consider the pay that bad now we are guaranteed a decent euro - pound rate, and of course it's a compromise you make if you can't face being dumped in the Middle East. In actual fact I'd rather be on jobseekers than go to that hole.

It is what it is , don't consider joining if you can't see that.

Oh, and maybe LGw based but still with a rishworth contract from Singapore so I'm not sure about all the bond stuff.

[Direct Bondi]

Notwithstanding my previous comment, Norwegian are legislatively required to provide training to the crews on the aircraft they operate. A training bond is NOT enforceable as the training is not voluntary, it is mandatory. Norwegian cannot recover a loss as none has occurred due to the mandatory requirement.
Furthermore, the agency is the employer and leases its employee crew to various airlines. If the airline, Norwegian, is required to provide training to the contractor, it is not the responsibility of the contractor to pay the leasing airline for that training.

[Avenger]

[Norwegian are legislatively required to provide training to the crews on the aircraft they operate.][/QUOTE]

No they are not! For type rated and current Pilots, Norwegian are only required to provide a company conversion course according to their part D manual and training as required to comply with their own SOPs. The " bond" refers to pilots whom require conversion training in order to be in a position to carry out their duties, under these circumstances, the bond is entirely enforceable as the pilots have the choice to except the employment under these terms or not according to the employment contract. My point regarding the agency you appear to have misunderstood. If an agency is providing pilots via a crew lease agreement, it is taken as read the pilots are already capable of performing the task required. In this case, the contract of employment is with the agency not the airline and as such any " additional training" given by the airline may be considered to fall outside of the contract. It would appear there must be two contracts here. 1) a training contract with the airline and 2) an employment contract with the agency. IF there is only one contract, with the agency, then the additional training carried out by the airline would have to be stipulated as an employment condition within the agency contract for the bond to be enforceable.

[Kirks gusset]

Basically, if you don't like it, as Mr Fade states, just stay away, simple as that.

[Monarch Man]

They obviously can't be short of applicants if they are now requiring 20k up front for 777 rated guys.

Merely a reflection on a fairly significant number of cashed up but disenchanted experienced 777 guys from the ME.
Given that my license says 777/787 on it, I'd be telling them where to stick it for anything other than a differences course and a sim session or two.
Typically its the dateless and desperate who look at this as a means to remain in, or return to the UK, what other games in town are there for experienced people down south? JET poo?

[highfive]

I hear a few B777 guys from turkish have applied and one or two 767 drivers from Japan. And a bunch of cargo 747. All overseas crew, no doubt sick to death of the sand or kebabs,

Last year, there was no mention of a bond for B777 rated crew.

So now they are inundated with qualified crew applying. If you are Airbus , no chance.

Expect conditions to significantly reduce next year.
( they will no doubt make a simulator available at €1000 per hour for crew to train for their interview profiles, payed for in advance, cashiers cheque)

And of course todays pilots will take it , boasting to their mates that they will fly the dream.

[fade to grey]

Yes, please do stay away.

[Monarch Man]

Gammon, don't rise to the bait, F to G, is merely reflecting the reality of the place.
My understanding is that just like the ME where I am, Norwegian is a place populated by misfits, refugees via redundancy, and lifestylers returning to the damp.
In any of those cases, there will always be those who seek to believe the BS and accept below market rates for their labour, leave them to it, and don't let the insipid remarks bait you into churlishness, F to G appears to want to personalise his reasons for accepting the Norewegian crumbs..or stinky fish etc.

[highfive]

Im not sure packing a case for 21-22 days away , to hack accross the atlantic sounds appealing. Im fascinated by this advert. Norwegian contact Rishworth, who set up another agency that then recruits for Norwegian. They ask all manner of questions, but ultimatly if you cannot deposit the required amount of dosh in their bank, its no go joe,

So why bother with the interviews, questions, aptitude tests. The first thing you should show at the interview, is a bag full of euros. Only then can you proceed. After handing it accross the table for safe keeping ;)

In days gone by, airlines recruited the best guys they thought were suitable for the job. Period. Then they would provide the training.
Now its show me the money, then and only then can we proceed with the formalities of an interview.

Typical interview question : Will you work for peanuts, no time off and inflexible rosters, have xxxx thousand hours of wide body, and are such a looser that you cannot hold down any other employment?

If the answers yes, then you clearly are not suitable to be a professional pilot.

[Direct Bondi]

On the presumption that no rated and experienced B787 pilot would leave a principled airline to fly for a fraction of his earnings with Norwegian, it is safe to assume that most, if not all, of Norwegian's B787 pilots have entered into bonded or indentured servitude (working for an employer for a number of years, before being allowed to freely seek other employment). I do not know of another airline where ALL the pilots of an entire fleet are bonded and, without any labour rights, standards nor principles to boot! In this respect, Norwegian is indeed in a class of its own. Those pilots signing on for such an arrangement have well and truly been "Kjossed", albeit voluntarily.

[fade to grey]

Well your understanding is wrong, monarch.

Can't find any misfits here - we have an excellent training department, populated by very experienced ex flag carrier trainers.

There is a tangible feeling of improvement. Paid in pounds , with a set rate that isn't bad. Roster just got a lot better. Planes nice, if that's your thing.bond money coming back on schedule no problem . It has massive potential.

as I've said before, you pays your money you take your choice.

As usual of pprune, lack of knowledge won't deter the self inflated from commenting on things they have no first hand experience of.

[3Greens]

Which Flag carrier have these trainers come from? Out of interest.
I ask as since 2006 to my knowledge, no trainer has left BA to train elsewhere. Also the default ICAO retirement age going to 65 would mean anyone would be mad to leave their own outfit to seek employment with Norwegian?

[gorter]

KLM adding letters as otherwise post isn't long enough.

[Monarch Man]

Sure F to G, so those good guys that sat down with me last week in blighty and explained about all the issues, rosters, money, rosters etc were telling porkie pies?
These are the same blokes who also spoke about the 3 categories of individuals as described previously and mentioned in terms they used themselves.
Without ACTUALLY working there, I've been given a pretty good snapshot. Of course as you say "you pays your money" etc, and I suppose thats the reality, but please don't sugar coat or polish a turd, the job is merely another example of the race south.
I'm in little better shape, 90hrs a month in a sandy furnace, but at least making about 3 times what I would at Norwegian softens the pain..a bit

[fade to grey]

Gammon.....stop going on.....it's not £4800 net anymore, and in last of cases it's more than 8 days off. Move on, you are out of touch with the recent improvements .

Monarch, well, the experience is somewhat variable still. Some with good rosters some less so. I'm not known for hyperbole, so all I can say is it is ok for me at present and I have no agenda.

[tripulante521]

The recent improvements are very small and they cost Norwegian almost nothing ...
NLH now mainly attracts European pilots working in Asia and in the Middle East who are ready to accept poor terms and conditions to be closer to home...

[deptrai]

It's simply a disgraceful package for the Job involved.

twentyyearstoolate, you (and others here) made headline news in a major Norwegian newspaper, quoted here (http://www.dagbladet.no/2015/05/18/nyheter/norwegian/luftfart/utenriks/arbeidsliv/39219226/)

( g translate version here (https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dagbladet.no%2F2015%2F05%2F18%2Fnyheter%2 Fnorwegian%2Fluftfart%2Futenriks%2Farbeidsliv%2F39219226%2F&edit-text=&act=url) )

:D

[fade to grey]

I don't fit in any of those categories.
I think you have to compare apples with apples - this long haul low cost is a new idea with a tight cost base.

If anybody abroad is expecting NLh to offer captains pay in line with a legacy carrier at pay point 25 to attract them, I think they are living in cloud cuckoo land.

As for the Norwegian short haul, they have there own deals. But not overlooking the captains will be voluntarily demoting themselves as we don't except narrow body capts direct onto long haul.

[Cliff Secord]

I can't see why Ryanair guys would see this as a useful rating to invest in over their 738 ratings. Where the hell are you going to go with a 787 rating?

Thomson? Union

Virgin? Forget that unless you flew a fast pencil, wore badges and had a name like "badger"

BA? Tenuous reason to spend the money. May as well stay on the 738, you'd still be able to apply if you wanted.

The ME/FE/ rest of world etc? Just apply directly to these companies with 738 time if you are hell bent on leaving the UK. The ME etc are all taking non rated.

[Cliff Secord]

That some are defending this package illuminates one of the reasons why this job is completely ****** as a future. "On my own, I can't do anything about it, it's the way terms are heading. You're all in cookoo land, accept it, that's capitalism".

I'm not even going to attempt to get into a bun fight over this. I've said my piece. It is the way it's going, but do I accept it? No bloody way. I'll fight to the end when I work out my escape, if not for me, for the next blind idiot. Because the bosses aren't getting poorer. If there was some magnanimous idea that even the owners were in ribbons of clothing perhaps, but they aren't. They picked this fight to undercut each other and reduce their prices. The squeeze went on their workforce. If there's no resistance then the squeeze goes on the workforce. Only us dimwits at the coal face defending their practices look like prize turkeys. Do the bosses drive Ladas? No they bloody don't. They go home at night the same as ever to their loved ones, enjoying the joys of life and good living and get to back slap each other at the business awards. Why the hell would I want to shorten my life span on **** longhaul under the modern terms- let's cut to the chase - to finance some management/ directors fancy lifestyle. Because that's all you're doing.

I'm getting out of this sorry industry when I can. I have worked many jobs outside flying and know the grass ain't greener money wise, but the lifestyle bloody is. You can't spend money in your coffin. And I'm downright tired letting some clown offer me a lifestyle that's putting me closer to that coffin just so he can turn a buck and own the next Porsche.

[highfive]

With regards statement above , this has been practiced for many years in another uk carrier, Virgin ! I cant think Branson's has ever resided in some terrace house, wondering about his mortgage repayments not been met because his rostered allowances are down this month.

The new way into uk avaiation in the next decade for wannabes will be as follows: Get 200 hr licence. Go overseas for 20 years. Earn enough to be mortgage free and , having already educated the kids, apply for a an allowances only flying job for your last 10 years before
retiring.
After all, who pays you to cut the lawn right? Might as well be flying for food .

[Direct Bondi]

However, Virgin crew are employees of the airline and treated accordingly. As opposed to Norwegian’s contractor crew who are treated shamefully with respect to labor rights.

Sadly for some defending this organization, Norwegian has become rather like a cult, headed by an individual who would make any James Bond villain appear compassionate. Similarly, there is an inner core of henchmen who crush any perceived criticism. Most notable amongst these cronies is ‘Doctor Spin’ in the form of a Press Officer. Spin defends and promotes his master’s global plan at every opportunity.

Within the Norwegian Airline Group at least two pilots are currently suspended for daring to speak out. Others have been summarily removed without any investigation for their perceived dissention after reporting safety matters. The FAA is currently investigating the precipitous termination of four NLH cabin crew based in JFK following a serious safety incident. Norwegian’s shameful attitude toward labor has been well reported, not by US unions, accused by Norwegian of only defending US jobs, but by their own countrymen, e.g. most of the media in Norway. The unsavory facts of this thread were reported on Monday 18th, in Norway’s Dagbladet newspaper. Link:-

Må betale 350 000 kroner for å fly for Norwegian - nyheter - Dagbladet.no (http://www.dagbladet.no/2015/05/18/nyheter/norwegian/luftfart/utenriks/arbeidsliv/39219226/)

As reported, when asked if it was true that Norwegian has no employer responsibility toward its 787 LGW based pilots, Spin replied:

“No this is not correct. Our Dreamliner pilots at London Gatwick has the same rights as all other workers in the UK”

Reality: No direct employer/employment relationship exists with Norwegian. As such, it is categorically impossible for a LGW Dreamliner pilot to have the same rights as all other workers in the UK. When asked if it was true that Norwegian’s conditions are outrageously bad and the worst paid in the world for Dreamliner pilots, Spin replied:

“This is wrong. Our Dreamliner pilots based in London Gatwick get competitive conditons”

Reality: Norwegian’s Dremaliner pilots are in fact the worst paid in the world and have no redeeming conditions.

NLH Dreamliner pilots are contractors not employees. Norwegian may dispense with contracted pilot services and/or change the terms and conditions with the agency at any time. Remember, Norwegian was easily able to separate the Scandinavian pilots into three divisions during the recent strike. The 90-days notice period is with the agency, not the lessor airline, Norwegian. The agency is lawfully permitted to put pilots on 90-days notice, but may not have any contracts/work other than with Norwegian - check the contract for the liability of the agency to find you alternative work. You are effectively terminated forthwith and, without recourse against Norwegian due to the complicated web of the employment relationship, masterminded from Norwegian's headquarters in Fornebu Norway, through their Dublin satellite office, via their business partner agency in New Zealand and their associated London subsidiary (probably a broom cupboard in Crawley). This is an employment law and labor rights circumvention plan worthy of SMERSH.

In addition to other matters of grave concern, no doubt the US DOT is now examining NHL’s blanket bonding policy. As previously commented, I know of no other airline where all the pilots of an entire fleet are bonded. Combined with the facts of Norwegian’s documented punitive actions against its staff, this poses a potential issue regarding voluntary safety reporting. Before some of you react to my assertion, there can be no guarantees that a pilot owing thousands in training bond, together with mortgage, school fees, car payments, alimony, etc., will not be reluctant to speak out and put their means to effect this substantial debt repayment at risk (yes, I am aware there are regulatory protections when reporting safety matters, however, while proving your constructive dismissal case, you will still be without income).

The NLH business model/scheme is an added cause of stress and pressure for pilots and potentially obstructs voluntary safety reporting. It has no place in aviation.

To put matters in perspective, a direct hire supermarket shelf-stacker has more employment law protection and labor rights than a LGW based, NLH Dreamliner pilot.

Bjorn Kjos was previously named ‘Leader of the Year’ by temporary staffing agency Manpower Inc. A leader indeed – to the bottom.

[SR71]

As reported, when asked if it was true that Norwegian has no employer responsibility toward its 787 LGW based pilots, Spin replied:

“No this is not correct. Our Dreamliner pilots at London Gatwick has the same rights as all other workers in the UK”

It's one of those non-answers politicians give...

Of course they've got "statutory rights" but they're not the "rights" in question.

:ugh:

[300-600]

To Answer an earlier post about ex legacy carrier pilots currently operating in the LHS of NLH 787s (these are just the ones I know personally....have only been there six months so this is just a cross section).
2 retired Cathay guys
2 retired Austrian TRI/TREs
double figure numbers of retired KLM guys
Most of the Training Department from GSS
1 ex BA guy (had a medical issue then returned to fly the line at GSS)
Close to double digit numbers of ex Korean guys
1 Ex Emirates trainer
1 Ex Qatar trainer
Haven't counted
4 Boeing LGW trainers gaining 787 line flying experience (including ex BA guys)
2 Ex Thomas Cook (recently promoted from the Relief Capt
Position-RCA).
1 Ex Cargolux
1 Ex DHL TRI/TRE also about to be upgraded to LHS
or one of the top trainers in the RAF with a huge amount of heavy civil experience (currently an RCA as he also didn't have 777 time).

Before my time I believe we had 30 odd Virgin guys who brought a lot of long haul experience to the operation for the best part of a year.

I have probably seen less misfits in this company than any of my previous....almost to a man this is a great bunch of people (undoubtedly the best thing about NLH)

Most of these guys here just were originally trying to avoid the sandpit / China...or top up their retirement income.

[tcas69]

I know the ex Austrian guys, they got in early and have VERY different contracts ;-))

[Direct Bondi]

NLH are very lucky to have obtained such an impressive mix of talent as listed above. No doubt NLH managers have made full use of their vast experience to ensure safety and regulatory compliance. Or maybe not;

On January 26 an NLH Dreamyliner, DY7006 (LNF), departed JFK-ARN and flew across the Atlantic without the required number of cabin crew - "Of course this was illegal" states Einar Schjolberg, CAA Norway Director. This occurred while the Captain was undergoing a Line Check! Again, this was not reported by any of those nasty people in the US trying to stop NLH, but by the Norway media, Link:-

Norwegian-fly underbemannet over Atlanteren: - Uakseptabelt, sier Luftfartstilsynet - nyheter - Dagbladet.no (http://www.dagbladet.no/2015/02/18/nyheter/flysikkerhet/norwegian/37782004/)

This event is very surprising given the experience on offer and the fact that Norwegian has a resident "aviation expert" in the form of a Post Holder, who regularly appears in the press to comment on safety matters and defend Norwegian's low cost business model and exclusive use of contract pilots.

[highfive]

As i hinted at before, Norwegian have, probably unwittingly, realised that there are heaps and heaps of massively experienced expat guys who are not interested in the money, but just want to keep their hand in for a couple of years before they retire, or ex legacy guys wanting to have a bit of fun. If they earn a salary while doing it, all the better.

The ex Korean guys are BKK employed and all were ex KE777.

The reality is that this pot of expat experience has no where to go especially if they want to return as commanders and be european based. There are no companies offering DEC in the UK on long haul, and employing none type rated to boot. A few tens of thousands of euros bond wont make much difference either way.


No doubt the first batch of guys who joined NLH (as mentioned in the post above) are burnt out and are approaching full retirement. Now the new contracts are considerably reduced, but the applications from the middle east just keep coming. Why would NLH offer competative salaries when the pot is overflowing with guys who will fly the plastic pencil for food ?

[Direct Bondi]

Thank you for clarifying that misunderstanding. When I realized the true cause of all the disagreement in this thread, you could have knocked me down with one of those convoluted NLH contracts.

I originally thought pilots were intentionally being exploited through low wages, no benefits, the circumvention of employment laws and labor rights by using third-party staffing agencies located in multiple countries of legal jurisdiction, the insistence that pilots sign a clause indemnifying the airline from responsibility as the employer and requiring an upfront payment of 40 thousand euro for the privilege of “employment” – commonly referred to as pay2fly.

Who would have believed the above is not an intended corporate policy, conceived, thoroughly planned and implemented by an unprincipled echelon of hypocrites, but rather a convenient business model occurring “unwittingly” and due entirely to a natural labor force phenomenon known as 'pilot overflow' (cancel the recruitment videos, agency gurus, tambourines and kool-aid).

You post “the new contracts are considerably reduced”. Let’s collectively, in a non-union sort of way, cross our fingers and hope the salary does not reduce to that of the CEO. Ref interview video - Link:-

VIDEO: Piketty hammers Norwegian founder on air - The Local (http://www.thelocal.no/20150317/piketty-hammers-norwegian-owner-on-air)

At 4.40 the CEO states:
“I am not among the highest paid in Norwegian. A lot of the pilots earn more than me”

Although at 5.20 the CEO is asked:
“What is your net worth and how much tax do you pay?” - the question is asked ten times, without answer.

However, an interesting ideology is stated by the CEO at 1.45:
“You should always have a system where you get return on the job you do. If you work very hard, you should have a return on it. If people do not have a return on it, they will not work very hard - it motivates them”

Based on the reported “new contracts being considerably reduced” and stated ethos of the CEO, it follows that a work slowdown at NLH is imminent. Will that be: 1. Collectively 2. Individually or 3. Not at all? - Answer on a postcard to CEO. First correct answer wins a direct employment contract with all associated employee benefits.

(Only NLH pilots permitted to enter. Prize is not transferable to NAS. Direct employment contract available only at Fornebue headquarters. Details of your entry may be kept on file and used to determine base, roster, promotion, contract renewal or workforce reduction. Other conditions may apply, but I’m not telling you about them. Only one entry per pilot allowed).

[Busbo]

The above two posts pretty much sum up the two sides of the argument to me.

Highfive makes the "supply and demand" case. Based entirely on cold logic but without what we, as the labour providers, like to cause morals and fairness.

Directbondi takes the "fair days pay for a fair days work" approach. Again with plenty of logic although this time with some added humanity.

However, what happens when we as the labour providers find ourselves with the proverbial boots on our proverbial feet?

I don't recall seeing a single comment suggesting we as pilots should cap potential earnings in the Far East. "Quarter of a million dollars per year? Absoloutly, seems reasonable to me. Well, there's a reason they pay so much, no-one would do it otherwise".....or something along those lines.

If, in some parallel universe, Europe did suffer the long predicted pilot shortage would we turn down telephone number salaries the airlines would beg to pay us?

Sounds like the other side of supply and demand to me. Whilst I acknowledge that some airlines are taking everything they can now, I'm not sure we would behave any better.

[adolf hucker]

Direct Bondi is clearly unhappy that NLH are exploiting a ready supply of willing and able candidates. He appears to be offended that some of his peers elect to supply their services to an employer he considers unworthy and is very keen to paint Norwegian in the worst possible light. I suggest that he is guilty of wishful thinking if he expects any employer nowadays to pay any more than the bare minimum required to recruit and retain pilots of adequate quality in sufficient numbers. That level of remuneration will differ between regions and between different companies in the same region. Norwegian happens to be the lowest paid wide body operator in their region but they would be crazy to pay any more than they have to.

We are all big boys and responsible for our own decisions. Don't like Norwegian? Then don't join. Want more money? Go to the Middle East or China. I really don't need anyone with an agenda to protect me from myself.

[TowerDog]

. Norwegian happens to be the lowest paid wide body operator in their region but they would be crazy to pay any more than they have to.

Uh, are you defending the race to the bottom?

Regardless, it IS supply and demand.
When I started in this business, flying big jets back in 1988, the pay as a new hire FO on the DC-8-73 for Evergreen on the Air India Cargo contract was pretty low, not horrible, just low.
I still took the job, needed the jet time and the training, as well as the job.
(No charge or bond back then)
After 3 months on the job with a Frankfurt base, German Air Cargo started up with the same jets, DC-8-73' and a Frankfurt base.
Half of the Evergreen guys, mostly Europeans, jumped ship and went to German Air Cargo.
A few days later we got a 35% pay increase. To keep more of us from leaving obviously.
Supply and demand indeed.

[Kirks gusset]

Out of the Blue, this arrived in my Mail..
Maybe they are reading PPrune too! " effectively a 15% pay increase" a leaf from the THY book me thinks...

Rishworth Aviation is pleased to announce improved terms for all Norwegian Long Haul B787 roles based at LGW. Contracts will now be paid in GBP - effectively a 15% pay increase.

If you have already completed your application you will also benefit from these new terms. There is no need to to reapply.

If you have not yet applied don't miss out, apply today!

Screenings will be held in Oslo in July, August and September with courses starting in October and the coming months into the first part of 2016.

Should you be successful you will be employed by Rishworth Aviation subsidiary company, Global Crew UK Ltd.

Invitations to the screenings will be sent out shortly by Norwegian. Complete your application now to make sure you don’t miss out!

Watch what pilots Captain John Woolfson, Relief Captain Matia Fracasso and First Officer Mubashar Kapur say about flying the B787 Dreamliner for Norwegian Long Haul as they show you around what your future office in the sky could look like!

[Direct Bondi]

"I really don't need anyone with an agenda to protect me from myself"

Oh dear, the “agenda” witless response. This website is full of threads with this last resort accusation, commonly used when no other defense of a contentious issue is possible.

My point is, and remains, the gross hypocrisy of a company that continually projects itself as a principled employer. Supply and demand always affects price – clearly the applications have slowed, as evidenced by the above post/advertisement. It does not necessarily follow that supply and demand should automatically create only third-party agency jobs, circumventing employment laws, rights, standards and principles, merely because of a labor excess. Such an abhorrent business model is intentionally man made:-

“Should you be successful you will be employed by Rishworth Aviation subsidiary company, Global Crew UK Ltd”

As if to add insult to the injury of this non-employment relationship with the airline, even more hypocrisy from their own website:-

https://www.norwegian.com/uk/about-norwegian/corporate-responsibility/working-conditions/ (https://www.norwegian.com/uk/about-norwegian/corporate-responsibility/working-conditions/)

“We place great importance on ensuring compliance with employees’ basic human rights as outlined in the International Labour Organisation's core conventions”

If such great importance is placed on ensuring compliance with an employees ILO rights, why does this airline do everything possible to circumvent them?

Agenda no, facts yes. Your right to choose, absolutely.

[highfive]

Just occured to me that whoever takes this job, sorry , fabulous opportunity, will feel such a berk walking accross the apron knowing that they are the low paid laughing stock of the long haul community.

There will be where to hide, might as well stamp "looser" on your forehead!

[pudoc]

Quote Tesco all you like, but the war is on between supermarkets as to who can be the cheapest/best value. Sound familiar to you? Yes, that's right. It sounds like our airline industry these days. Let's say Tesco is the equivalent to a flag carrier, huge and once making lots of money, now there is a rise of Lidl and Aldi, the LoCos if you like.

It won't be long, new Tesco graduates will eventually lose their company car, next it'll be their discount, salaries will go down etc. Then the old Tesco managers will moan on the Supermaket Manages Rumour Network.

Just open your eyes, we are going through a revolution of cutting costs, which is affecting every single industry.

Trust me, I don't wish for this to happen and would never join NAS or accept such conditions, but for my/your sanity it's important to realise it's not just us it's happening to. Doctors/Surgeons on the NHS for one.

[pudoc]

That's true. I've seen the figures myself. And that's all because they are taking advantage of the increasing number of people use their shops. They need the right people to build on that. Compare it to China, expanding massively over the years and offering a load of cash for any button pusher who will join.

[captplaystation]

john smith


"I'm afraid your analogy doesn't work. Aldi and Lidl are two of the highest paying graduate employers in the UK (Aldi is officially the employer with the highest published graduate starting salary). They pay their checkout staff more than the "established" supermarkets too. Why do they do it? Because they need to attract the best people. Again, there's absolutely no incentive for airlines to do so."


Not so many years ago Ryanair paid top shilling to attract pilots to go, and stay, there , rather than have them fleeing to the Orange Mob (at that time operating the same type)

If the career of Supermarket Manager becomes so attractive, more will want to do it, and more competition amongst potential employees opens the door to . . . . .? give it to someone who will accept less.

Sorry to say, but managing a supermarket is not rocket science. I know how much you seem to enjoy coming on here talking down our profession as "semi-skilled-labour" , but really, pray tell me how being a "rising star" in the league of supermarket managers pans out then ?
You are employed at a particular site , where is your influence there ? if it is well placed geographically fine, if not ? you going to have the new by-pass rerouted to pass the door ? I don't think so.
You stock the products that your marque chooses , any influence there then ? nope don't think so. People like the products you sell, prices you charge ? yes, you have a successful franchise under your mighty rule, no ? it flops.
I find it rather difficult to comprehend how being in charge of a one dimensional building, open only during civilised hours, in some way equates in any form to a shift in the vein of what Mr Gammon Flaps has quoted, but then, I wouldn't as I am not a Troll who spends his time on an internet forum titled "PROFESSIONAL PILOTS rumour network", talking down the profession of pilot, or are you just trying to accustom us (and yourself) to the harsh realities of the current world we live in, which will also affect your beloved high-flyers currently managing Supermakets in due course.

I guess that would account for our differing levels of comprehension in the responsibilities/risks of store manager versus aircraft commander :roll eyes: Or is all that matters to you how much the individual in charge of a superstore can claim (with as previously explained, very little influence /intervention on his/her part ) to have passed through the tills on a busy Saturday afternoon. If so, I suggest you hang up any jacket with stripes on the sleeves in your profession & swop it for a grey suit/grey personality.

[Flying Clog]

"...... Pilots as a group seem to have delusions of grandeur; airline captain is simply not a £100k+ a year job. The market recognises that and is applying downward pressure, such that the correct level will be found. I've said many times before that the correct level will be around £30-40k for a captain, with FO as a non-salaried (or recruit-funded) "internship" position."

That's all very well John_Smith, until airplanes start dropping out of the skies.

Which is INEVITABLE with the quality of captain's being promoted and new joiners at these :mad: airlines that pay bugger all.

As far as I'm concerned, FO salary should start at 30k and rise to 60+k, and CNs 50k up to 120k. As a minimum really.

Heck, my pay slip last month was 25,000 euros as a 10 year FO! So I'm alright jack!

(willy waving mode off, it feels good to air it though!)

It's all you muppets working for peanuts I'm worried about. I'll be sitting next to you soon, and I'm NOT happy with that.

Single pilot wide body ops is NOT my cup of tea thank you very much :ugh:

[skyflyer737]

Whether we like it or not, John Smith is 100% correct. It's supply and demand and I am astonished how few pilots understand this.

I have seen both sides to the story. I've been in suits earning a corporate salary 'adding value' at several blue chip firms as a graduate and I've been in the right and left seats of airliners and despite the responsibilities and anti-social hours, the flying job is by far the easiest and I agree that it is semi-skilled labour.

Our salaries and conditions are pure economics. I wish it were not true but it is.

[Cliff Secord]

You know where this idea of being a pilot is semi skilled labor comes from don't you? It because people have some notion that other jobs require far more intellect. Some higher gravitas must takes place elsewhere. That's tosh. A hedge fund manager can make a fortune and be good at it without talking about splitting the atom day by day, as can an MD of any company. It's not high science for these jobs. Even for (God forbid I suggest this??) Doctors. These things people are good at it, the same as flying in aviation you have to be a certain standard of good at it determined by level to not get binned in the sim or crash. The same as they have to be to not be sacked for poor performance.

As to suggest aviation is semi skilled as if running a company or being a vet is some sort of higher zen trait - what absolute rubbish. It's only because you've not done these things you view them in such high regard. It's like a lot in life, you train for some some stuff, you apply it and use judgement. Granted, there are some things that actually do require a true higher mental cognitive gravitas - research science, higher levels of medicine -musical composers. But these guys are rare in quantity often aren't highly rewarded.

Conversely and against the arrogant presumption that only intellect is a measure of higher human perception of what is asirational achievement there are some people in life who could be said by that defination display some truly higher human secretly silent wonder in a different regard who aren't highly paid. Special forces soldiers perhaps, or volunteer workers in Siria.

The one thing I'll agree with John Smith with (amongst all his highly simplistic shakey, broad stroke arguments) is that the aviation pilot role will deteriorate to a 40-50k (equivalent to this year plus inflation to future years) a year role for captain.

[wiggy]

Cliff

Well said.

But yes, like you I think JS is correct in his predictions of where pilot pay will end up.

[bex88]

What a depressing thought. Supply and demand will shape salaries? Hard to argue with that but responsibility and accountability or cost of an accident will also influence it. In my airline we are short, wages are good and they are struggling to find enough "suitable" candidates (whatever they mean by that). The answer seems for us is work harder for the same salary. Good will and motivation go a long way.

Semi skilled? I don't agree with that. I have seen a number of very clever cadets from various backgrounds recently who are way outside of their depth. I think we can sometimes underestimate our skills. Seeing someone who is inexperienced highlights that. Up until then I may have agreed. You can't just throw any human into an aeroplane and expect a safe, efficient operation.

Was it not Stellios that said "if you think safety is expensive then you should see an accident". Safety starts as a culture and ultimately is our responsibility"

[skyflyer737]

I agree with almost all comments regarding getting to a level of competence is the key to an easy life in most jobs and was wrong to say flying an aircraft is a semi-skilled labour job.

However, the thread is mainly about how poor a package NLH are offering widebody crews - and yet they don't seem to have a problem filling the seats with some very capable and experienced guys so why on earth would they pay more if they don't have to?

Supply and demand again kicks in if Rex is right and for £40-£50k no one will do the job. Salaries would then start to rise again as required to attract people to do the job.

Perhaps the reason for my over reaction calling the job semi skilled labour is down to two things: 1: former colleagues in the business world and former students I studied with earning £100k + as consultants / doctors / lawyers / accountants work ludicrous hours (often 100+ hours a week at anti-social times) have studied WAY harder in their professions than I ever did for my flying job and in my view work much harder than most of us as pilots. 2: I get fed up being told by colleagues in the flightdeck we should all earn more while they sit there drinking coffee, playing games on their ipad and later settling down for a 20 min snooze at FL380. I love doing those things too and I hope I can continue earning six figure sums doing but I don't expect that to continue for several more decades. Friends on long haul at BA are often bidding for their next month's work based on how good the golf / wine / shopping / beaches / nightstops etc are at their destintations while being paid £100k+ for the inconvenience. Good on them! I'm delighted but is it sustainable long term?

As for being in charge of a $200m highly complex aircraft with several hundred lives in our hands - yes, this is a large responsibility but there are large numbers of us out there able to handle that responsibility, especially now that these modern aircraft take much of the 'work' away from us in both normal and non-normal situations. Until airlines cannot get their hands on enough pilots, I'm afraid salaries and conditions will drop. Simple economics. It's a shame as the party was good while it lasted.

[vernonthevelder]

But yes, like you I think JS is correct in his predictions of where pilot pay will end up.

Why is that then?

I am sure there are more reasons for it but one part is surely the supply side of the labor where student pilots despite large sacrifices in money, time and distance away from home still sign up. Nowadays also knowing the long term reward is not what it is used to be.

The second and perhaps more interesting here on PPRuNe is the need for airlines to change pilots perception of what fair remuneration actually is. In order to shift the supply curve. (It´s the winner after all in economics isn´t it?) It´s possible to attempt trying to do that, free of charge, using forums like this writing perhaps manifesting itself as ”it´s a job for monkies", “similar to collecting garbage on the street”, “same as driving a bus”,"unskilled", “like a shift in a coal mine in the beginning of the industrial revolution”, "I think it´s a 40k a year job" etc etc...

[swish266]

Hi,
I got invited to do the online assessment yesterday. I did the 5 tests today.
Any ideas on how long before the next step? Will it be the sim?
Initially the "screening was supposed to take place in August-September".
Thanks.
:ok:

[Avenger]

The essence of this debate is "choice" if you are an old guy( or girl) wanting to return to the UK, cut your own grass and spend time at home for less than you've been used to, so what, if you can afford it, what's the problem? Now, on the other hand if you are clawing your way up the ladder with a ruck sack of debt and feel you need more pay ( or are worth a whole lot more), your perspective will be different. We cannot dictate our pay and conditions, as observed, if you don't like it don't apply. The " moral high ground" stance that we should be paid XXX and have XX contracts, the airline is an outrage and shame to the industry is subjective. NAS will only pay what they have to and at the moment they can afford to pay less than others. My daughter moved to a private school as a teacher and doubled her overall package, if she moves back to the state system she will accept a cut.. same job, same workload,,Choice..A quick calculation I made showed if I returned to UK, paid UK tax and lived in my own house working for NAS, allowing for not renting abroad, no second car, no commuting flights I would be just 10K a year " worse off" but I will die in my own bed! I am not defending their stance simply agreeing with others that we wake up and smell the coffee

[JaxofMarlow]

Every now and then JS introduces his rather extreme and negative view of airline pilots and every time he gets the same reaction. His views are not all wrong but they are simplistic.

Supply and Demand does not dictate everything. It provides a guide to the parameters of pay. There will be a point where the bottom is hit and the supply will dry up. Then artificial influences come into play. Just ask a train driver. Higher paid than most FO's, their job is easy by comparison. The thing is on rails so cannot get lost and does not go up or down. There is no shortage of people trying to be one and they go on strike again next month for more money, which they will get. Now let me try to work out what the difference is…

To get the thread a little more on track. The view that a CEO is only responsible for profit and that supply and demand is all that matters is very simplistic. If this were entirely true and were the only drivers we would be seeing prices of all goods and salaries of all employees flying up and down continuously. There are many other influencers at play and some of these are reasonableness, moderation and fairness. These are principles applied by all the best companies and best CEOs in the world as they recognise that shareholder return, albeit vital, is not the only factor at play. An unhappy workforce can cost a business millions and badly hit shareholder return. And that is why Norwegian seek to employ the way they do. They are trying to get the best of both worlds by smashing employee costs and removing the potential for the consequent unhappy workforce to do anything about it.

[Tahitimax]

I did the online assessment last week as well. No news since then.

Any one went through the sim assessment ?
Is is on a 737 simulator ?

[cucuotto]

JS...you are delusional. People will never be happy of just having a job ,they may put it with it for a while. Than they will start sharpening the guillotine..and it will be aristocract's head to fall....be carefull.

[JaxofMarlow]

JS - you are loosing the plot. Can only assume you are looking to amuse yourself on a wet sunday afternoon.

[zeddb]

Everyone knows the glamour is gone, now as soon as the pay is gone too do you seriously think people are going to be lining up around the corner to take out a £100k+ loan to do an unpaid internship for an undetermined amount of time (possibly over ten years) only to then end up with a salary of 40-50k working your ass off with unsociable hours and the total lack of any stability?I'm afraid that they will. Just look at the number of "cadets" lining up to pay vast sums to Ryanair or CTC or any of a number if these "schemes".

A lot of these spoilt little :mad: just want to be able to put themselves on arsebook or twitter wearing a pilot uniform. After two years they get bored then go and work in daddy's business when they realise that it isn't actually as glamorous as they think and that they might have to wait a while before being called captain.

Anyone who thinks there is little desire to do this job and little conception of what it actually entails should have a look in the "interviews and sponsorship" section. The lemmings are falling over themselves to give away their parent's money and if the rest of us get shafted as a result, what the hell do they care?

They don't and management are laughing all the way to the bank.

This should have been stopped about twenty years ago, but, as usual, pilots refuse to stick together, preferring to wave their :mad: around at each other and so nothing happened.

Fat too late now. JS is right to get the hell out. I wish I could.

[JaxofMarlow]

I already had in my previous post JS. But then you cap it off with "As they should be (management smashing the work force into submission). That should be one of the main goals of management. The days of companies striving for a happy, well motivated workforce are long gone. People now (and not just in aviation) are just grateful to have a job. Therefore, management would be mad not to do absolutely everything that they can to drive down employee conditions. A cowed workforce unable to fight for their conditions (and unwilling to do anything to effect change) is a wet dream for management and shareholders.

If you really think this is how successful companies are built then good luck to you. I hate to imagine what sort of "manager" you will be but I know with your attitude you will not survive.

There are many reasons for the decline in aviation as a satisfying and stable career and you quite rightly point out many of these. Top of the pile is greed followed closely by stupidity. But to claim that these are desirable characteristics of management today is frankly very sad for someone who is seeking a management career elsewhere.

I have first hand experience of a UK company where its management thought it was invincible and could do what it wanted. It rewarded greed and shut its eyes to the legality of actions for the sake of profit. At one stage not that long ago it was the biggest company in its field in the world. Now, it is an apologetic joke desperately relying on the loyalty of severely depleted staff to dig it back to acceptability.

[MonarchOrBust]

If, my aviation career started when I wished it had at 21, and I joined a low cost airline doing 4 sectors a day, 20 times a month, I too would be looking for a way out. As mentioned before JS, you're the product of too much too soon with no respite in between. We don't all have the same experience as you. Right now I'm in a job that has me flying 2 sectors 3 times per week. I thank the gods every night I didn't make easyJet. I'd probably end up like you. Self-righteous and completely clapped out. And do tell us, because we're waiting with bated breath, what exactly do you intend to do after aviation?

[Clandestino]

Every now and then JS introduces his rather extreme and negative view of airline pilots and every time he gets the same reaction.

In the days when Danny was the owner of PPRuNe, each and every page was graced with warning that folks posting here need not necessary be what they claim to be and there is risk of their main purpose being seeking reactions.

It would be very cynical of me to suggest that inflammatory posts and trolling are good for revenue from advertisements as they tend to attract clicks.

Oh well, I need to uphold my reputation of cynical :mad:, so there.

[fade to grey]

JS - I don't know if your a pilot or a troll, but to talk down your profession in such a way, makes you a disgrace to it.

[captplaystation]

fade to grey :D

[The Crew]

Ive received the email re : online assesment link. Anyone care to PM me some details of the actual test and if there is anything online that is useful prep?

Ive never had to do anything like this before, as ive not changed jobs for many years. Its was a face to face interview and sim check last time i applied for anything. Not sure what verbal reasoning proves for guys with 15000 jet hours !

Any info appreciated

[SR71]

Didn't the NLH package just get a 15% uplift?

:rolleyes:

Strikes me NLH have benefitted from a bunch of senior guys joining who are just looking for some pocket-money. Right place, right time. These guys don't need the money but they act as a brake on T&C's. Bit like when a previous airline took on a bunch of newly retired 55 year old BA retirees...

Is this "normal" supply and demand? Your call...

Southwest obviously pay their pilots peanuts and just happen to be somewhere where everybody wants to work. I'm fairly sure it is run by managers who understand the wisdom of JS.

I'm also pretty sure there isn't another industry in the world where there is downward pressure on T&C's.

:ugh:

[Avenger]

Agree with Fade to Grey here! A Troll invasion I'm not sure there is much
"Wisdom" in dragging the industry through the gutters

[EMB-145LR]

SR71, you couldn't be more wrong about Southwest, they are one of the highest earning pilot groups in the U.S. with arguable the best contract.

[captplaystation]

I believe he was being sarcastic/tongue in cheek :rolleyes:

[EMB-145LR]

My mistake. Note to self: read entire thread before commenting!

[The Crew]

Anecdotal evidence indicates that NLH are recruiting for a holding pool that will provide a base of pre recruited or potential recruits, who can be signed up, providing the airline gains greater access to the US market.

If this is not the case, then there will be nothing offered to the hopefuls.

Its been rumoured that training bonds will be taken from applicants before formal employment is offered. Therefore its possible that holding pool pilots
will be out of pocket by upto €40,000 while waiting.

It could be a costly and lengthy wait .

[Tahitimax]

100 pilots at 40.000 euros, that's 4 millions !!

[cucuotto]

Yeah..right..I have the money ready for transfer.. oh wait...I did not apply :ugh:
This profession is becoming a pathetic pantomime .. time to quit.

[essexboy]

The comments on here are becoming ridiculous. The bond is for the type rating not the job. You can't be asked to pay to go into a holding pool. These fantastical statements are becoming quite tedious. Useful constructive comments pleeeeaaaase.

[MASSH]

I am new here, but...

Is Rishworth the only agency for Norwegian?
As I understand that Rishworth works more for themselves/the-airline, than maybe another agency would?

[SouthoftheEqator]

MASSH,

These agencies are indeed a real "cancer" for this industry. However they only exist and survive thanks to the airlines they represent. The specificities of these agencies and their way of running their business have been discussed at length in the past but suffice to say that Rishworth is to be avoided like the plague!

[A and C]

I was contracted to Rishworth a few years back and found them very helpful, I would still be with them had things beyond the control of myself & Rishworth not forced an end to the contract.

It may help you to know that the other company acting on this contract was Parc, all the pilots contracted to Parc wished they had used Rishworth due to the problems they had with Parc.

A lot of pilots expect far too much from a contract agency and voice their dissatisfaction on these pages.

[OMAAbound]

as for the taxation policy in the UK with this contract, has anyone actually got any figures of how their tax has been? Has it been better than expected or worse?

And with the new £10,600 "tax free" allowance, will this not make its easier, plus if you wife, girlfriend, boyfriend, partner (whatever) doesn't work you are entitled to their £10,600 allowance to, this adds up to £21,000 "tax free" on your salary- obviously you have to got though the tax man for this but it is allowed.

Helps when my wife's a trained accountant!

[Gypsy]

I don't know where your wife trained as an accountant but in the Uk, your spouses tax free allowance is not transferrable to you

[OMAAbound]

As of this new tax year you can share your tax free allowance with your partners- I'm not 100% how it works but she was told by an ex-colleague that this is now possible. Especially those that are on low income, I'd guess you'd have to speak to an official tax advisor to get the "actual" ruling on This.

[Gypsy]

You are partly correct. As of this year one earner in a low income family can transfer up to £1060 of their unused allowance (tax saving £212) to their spouse provided that the spouse is not a high rate tax payer - so that rules most pilots out of that juicy £212.

I must add that I'm not a tax advisor but all this stuff is on the internet.

[OMAAbound]

That would make sense- when she told me I thought it sounded to good to be true, and with uk tax it normally is! Well the extra £212 will go towards my bar bill each month!

Either way I've applied for DEC is there anyone else who has applied lately, wat was the timeframe of them getting back to you?

[highfive]

Interesting we are now discussing tax rates for low earners in the NLH thread ! sums it up really.

Im pretty sure bonds will be paid up front before a type rating course commences. Otherwise a trainee could complete 95% then bail out and do the remaining simulator stuff himself. Not sure the point of this as its just a paper endorsement without flight time.

Ultimatly, Norwegian require a financial leverage allowing them to retain potential disgruntled pilots who may find its not quite the ball they were hoping for .

[fade to grey]

Clearly, they don't want people to up and leg it after the investment in training.
A lot of people have used a ' bank guarantee letter ' I believe, but in the UK, it's an unknown idea - or it was when I spoke to HSBC

[Griffin]

Why not treat people in a civilized manner instead, so they don´t WANT to leave... It´s just a thought, or more of a dream maybe.

[Cliff Secord]

Griffin

That is so last year.

[fade to grey]

Well, I don't think any airline doesn't bond except BA. And an acquaintance of mine left there after a year, thus proving the reason why airlines do bond ...

[Widebdy]

Plenty of airlines bond with a contract clause. Not many ask for cash to be seen upfront.

[Cliff Secord]

Fade to grey

Bond?? This isn't a bond at NLH. A bond if only. That was also so last year.

[bairni]

a promissory note was also accepted by the contracting agency instead of "sending cash" upfront :ok:

[Direct Bondi]

So last year indeed.

Rather like Norwegian’s US DOT, Foreign Air Carrier, Permit application, or was it the year before, it’s been so long now I can’t remember. An ultimate decision is sure to affect 787 recruitment or possible lay-offs! - how would that affect debt repayment of the 40K bond?

The Kjos “standing room only” (not enough chairs) Washington road shows, free ticket campaigns and cabin crew rally’s all seem to have stalled. One week Kjos arrogantly boasts to the US he does not need the Permit and the next, he is writing begging letters to DOT Secretary Foxx to ask for immediate Permit approval to provide US jobs. However, he conveniently does not disclose Norwegian's jobs do not comply with Article 17 of the current US EU Air Transport Agreement – ref links below:

"It really does not matter" - Kjos, DN news 4/29
- Vi kan fly til krampa tar oss med de tillatelsene vi har - DN.no (http://www.dn.no/nyheter/naringsliv/2015/04/29/1100/Norwegian/-vi-kan-fly-til-krampa-tar-oss-med-de-tillatelsene-vi-har)

Kjos requests speedy resolution - DN news 6/3
Norwegian lokker med flere jobber mot USA-lisens - DN.no (http://www.dn.no/nyheter/naringsliv/2015/06/03/0953/Norwegian/norwegian-lokker-med-flere-jobber-mot-usalisens)

Article 17 - "The opportunities created by the Agreement are not intended to undermine labor standards, or the labor-related rights and principles contained in the Parties' respective laws"
http://www3.alpa.org/Portals/Alpa/DeptPages/GovtAffairs/LegislativeSummit/2014/NAIATADOTStatute.pdf

[Daedalus737]

Are there any reports currently available about NLH Lifestyle?
Like how many consecutive days off are possible from from experience (not guessing, actual Situation)?
Those expats who are based in LGW, do they rent a flat or just arrive the same day from somewhere or the day before and stay the night in LGW?
How many "cycles" are to be expected?
(A cycle in my understanding is for example: A Pairing like LGW-JFK-OSL-ORL-OSL-JFK-LGW)

[fade to grey]

Cliff,
Did I miss something dear chap ? Am I released from my servitude....

Daedalus737, there's enough flying out of gatwick that W patterns only really apply now to the destinations that aren't served daily, such as Orlando.

3/4 of roster is gatwick, returning to gatwick .

[LNIDA]

Norwegian will be at the Paris airshow, rumour mill has it that an order for 20+ 787-9's will be announced......

[highfive]

€90000 per year for LHS, no doubt they can male a decent profit and order new planes to boot,

Paris ? Not a good place to order Boeings ...

[Kirks gusset]

Its their new business model, buying and selling aircraft no messy requirements for pilots etc etc !

[Daedalus737]

I've decided not to deposit 30.000€ with Norwegian and let the Dreamliner fly someone else. Social, isn't it?

[niss]

I did the same

[POT NOODLE HORN]

So I'm in the same situation, I have the opportunity to fly the 78 with NAS ....

Positives- good type rating and wide body experience

Negatives - lack of days off
Paycut
Bond
Upgrade time from RCA to 'full' cpt

Mmmmm decisions decisions

[kwaiyai]

I will stay where I am too thanks.

[Cliff Secord]

Fade to Grey

I may have mistaken you - apologies if I did - but I took it from the context of what we were talking about and your post that you viewed the NLH set up as a bond. If I mis read you, my apologies. If I did not, my point stands. Laying down a chunk of change is not a bond.

[The Crew]

Pot Noodle, have you tecently interviewed and been offered a poition with NLH? When did you apply? Im guessing not to the recent adverts?

[vernonthevelder]

Any truth to the rumour that BK has bought a server and placed it on a remote undisclosed island in the pacific ocean. Well guarded by local militia. Sources telling the sole purpose with the server is to use it mining Bitcoins at some point planning to start paying his staff that way instead of using cash money saving some money and the same time making air-travel cheaper and more available to the general public?

[Gypsy]

Please can someone in the know tell me what the arrangements are for the type rating and bond for a DEC on the 787.
Many thanks

[squarecrow]

@Gypsy likewise, If they are asking you to Pay up front with No Confirmed offer? On your head be it. If its with a written offer its not a bond its like a security Deposit. They don't have to spend Money chasing you over a bonding agreement which they may lose if its viewed as a Financial Penalty.
Basically if you go off before time they have nothing much to lose as they have your Cash already. Its been done before In a well known SE Asian Country before and others with Foreign Contract's. I Guess its here in Norwegian , I stand to be corrected but would like to know the lowdown also that's all.

[Direct Bondi]

Who is asking you to "pay up front" and to whom?
Norwegian's 787 pilots are all employed by an agency and supplied to Norwegian (like catering and cleaning services). Any agency employment scheme involving fees, may not comply with the Conduct of Employment Agencies and Employment Businesses Regulations 2003. The Employment Agencies Standards Inspectorate, EAS, should examine any "pay up front" revenue generator.

EAS information Link: http://www.acas.org.uk/media/pdf/p/r/Handout_BERR_Agency_workers_V2.pdf

[fade to grey]

If you need to know the bonding situation, speak to rishworth as they are solely engaged in this.
Basically the amount of bond varies dependant on what you've flown before.

For instance for previous 73/75/76 pilots €30k, more for those with Airbus only, less for 777 I believe.

Either have the cash, or bank guarantee letter. If it s cash it is deposited in a bank account. 12 months after you start the TR you get 1/3 back with any interest accrued, another year and so on. No one is asking you to commit to anything financially until you have a firm contract.

I've had €20k back so far with no problems

[Direct Bondi]

Why would you hand over a 30k cash bond as opposed to providing a bank guarantee letter? - I am not convinced a bank guarantee letter is an option as it does not generate revenue for the party concerned until bond default.

Is the B787 type rating fee/bond subject to VAT and if so, have you also received VAT refunds on any cash payment?

[Kirks gusset]

Bondi, some of your post portray a bitter and twisted person , akin to a barrack room lawyer, this is an aviation forum, not a human rights soap box. Your post No 11 (17/08/2012) " Norwegian did not pass Your assessment? " There is a world of difference between supporting the industry standards and derisory comments when guys are simply trying to work. As ventilated many times posts regarding VAT refunds, contract Law etc etc have little use when someone is trying to secure employment rather than stand on the ground gazing into the air..with respect a bit more balance would not go amiss. No one has the right to tell other people how to spend their money..Yes the NLH system appears to have flaws, but its a personal choice..If I believed half the stuff about THY I would have blown my own head off years ago, some complete and utter cr@p posted on these forums sometimes..

[essexboy]

Well said Kirks. There appears to be a lot of chaff on this thread and very little wheat. As I understand it the bond does not attract VAT because it is not paid to anybody. It is held on account and paid back annually. I don't know about any interest accrued but I do know from guys that are there that it is paid back on time.

[porkflyer]

Kirk you really an expert in communication. You sneak in on an unrelated thread to pump THY...ah ah ah you are the master !!!!
A bit sad as an attempt thou. Well above 90% of the thing you read on THY are 100% true by the way. The best European Airline is a pilot nightmare..not necessarily a expat pilot only.
Well I think you and your cronies managers and CFO/ CEO meeting at IATA to find ways to fill their pockets by screwing the lives and emptying those of professional pilots...and may want to think of this.
Times are changing man you will sure run of idiots to milk.

https://disciplesofflight.com/pilot-shortage-where-did-pilots-go/

[Gypsy]

fade to grey - thanks for the info above.

I would also like to know about rosters etc, days off, leave - how much and how difficult to get. Hotels - are they good etc. How long is the training. Anything useful to help with decision making. I know Rishworth have lot of this stuff but I'd just like to hear it from balanced first hand reports.

Post 187 mentioned a roster pattern but over how many days is that flown?

Many thanks

[7Q Off]

If you need to know the bonding situation, speak to rishworth as they are solely engaged in this.
Basically the amount of bond varies dependant on what you've flown before.

For instance for previous 73/75/76 pilots €30k, more for those with Airbus only, less for 777 I believe.

Either have the cash, or bank guarantee letter. If it s cash it is deposited in a bank account. 12 months after you start the TR you get 1/3 back with any interest accrued, another year and so on. No one is asking you to commit to anything financially until you have a firm contract.

I've had €20k back so far with no problems

So you need to pay the type rating plus the bond? 60 k aprox?

[bairni]

no, you make a deposit of 30k (or according your previous rating)
after 12 months it is reduced to 20k
after 24 months it is reduced to 10k
after 36 months the bond is fulfilled

[Shanwick Shanwick]

Gypsy

The big plus of the company are the people. You won't work with a better bunch of pilots. Perhaps as they're thrown together in less than ideal circumstances they just get along, very well.

Rosters - rubbish.

Leave - Request away but you won't get it. Probably bought at the end of the year.

Hotels - Rubbish. Mainly airport hotels due free transport.

To summarise, you wouldn't regret the move as the working environment is enjoyable but you may want to apply elsewhere one you have the rating.

[highfive]

What real use is the rating?
I want to pay a mortgage off not fly for just for fun.

How can a noisy airport hotel ever be fun?


At some point the lifestyle has to be more important than the rating. Chasing ratings is a mugs game
and will land you off in a far flung part of the world working with guys who dont give a flying f;(k who you are. Unless you convert to Islam. Or marry a chinese.

The rich will like NLH. The wannabes will love it .
Dunoo about the rest.

[Direct Bondi]

K Gusset/Essex lad:

“Well said” what exactly? No useful information was provided by your post, just a derogatory personal attack. I realize that enlightenment may sometimes disappoint, but do try and replace your unsavory objections to facts you refuse to accept, with constructive comment. Coincidentally, Kjos may not have considered the First Amendment at the time of his US Permit application.

The thread requests information on Norwegian’s UK 787 operation. Not only have I provided information, in most cases I have supported it with solid evidence. In particular, I hope I have enlightened many as to the true “employment relationship” with Norwegian and the reasons many find the Kjos, labor business model so objectionable – including 700 of Norwegian’s own pilots that went on strike last March.

I obviously touched a nerve with my reference to VAT. The fact remains, any type rating training provider in the UK is obliged to charge VAT. If pilots are being recruited by Norwegian and “charged” for their type rating, it is subject to VAT. Alternatively, if some other 30k or 40k payment is made to whomever and for whatever, it must be declared to HMRC by the recipient.

Guss, I fully support any pilot in their desire to obtain the employment of their choice. However, even you should see the irony in Norwegian’s 787 acquisitions:-

Built by a skilled workforce having government employment law oversight, labor rights and principles, including collective representation with their real employer.
Flown by a skilled workforce at an airline where none of these employment virtues are in place, allowed or dared to be openly communicated.

SAS and Lufthansa file new objections to Norwegian's business model, "A scheme that undermines Norway and European labor laws". Link:-

Kjos purret på Norwegians USA-søknad: SAS går til motangrep - Norwegian Air Shuttle - Børs og Finans - E24 (http://e24.no/boers-og-finans/norwegian-air-shuttle/kjos-purret-paa-norwegians-usa-soeknad-sas-gaar-til-motangrep/23469731)

[Gypsy]

Direct Bondi - can you provide answers to any of the queries I posted above please? I appreciate Shanwicks reply but I would rather read some info on rosters than just go with someone else's opinion that they are rubbish. When in the month are the rosters published? How many changes can one expect? How many days off between trips. How long are the trips?

How does the leave bidding work. Is there anyone here working for Norwegian who can confirm the suggestion above that it isn't possible to get all of the leave in and you end up selling it back?

Its obvious that many here are not fans of Norwegian but some info would be useful to help with decision making.

Thanks to all

[The Crew]

Gypsy, didnt you ask any of these questions during your interview?
Do they actually do face to face interviews?!

They want 1000 hours min wide body now, i understand over 35 B777 guys from the desert are on the books.

[Gypsy]

Haven't been for an interview yet. its an old fashioned thing of working out if I'm interested before applying to avoid wasting my time and theirs - hence the quest for info.

[essexboy]

1000 hrs wide body. Thats me out good luck to you all.

[Zapper27]

Hello everybody!

I really would appreciate infos about the Roster!

Typical Trip lenght, average days Off per month

Looking forward to your answers

[The Crew]

Wide Body time is for skippers only, think just jet time for FO

[The Crew]

If Norwegian Long Haul were to liquidate, for whatever reason, would those pilots having offered a bank guarentee to the company be better off than those who had simply deposited their 20-40000€ into the company's bank account?

[Avenger]

One can therefore assume if you go as a Cruise Relief Captain, ( Read FO) then you could expect to wait until 2000 hrs for the upgrade AKA Qatar system. They seem to know there are many many NG Skippers out there chomping at the bit to get LHS and are clearly focusing on these people to fill the seats, in the meantime taking DECs from the pits..

[fade to grey]

I think 1000 hrs wide body is for internal promotion from RCA to CPT.
I.e you have to do a little longer to be considered.

RE gypsys question.
Roster is released exactly 14 days prior to the next month. They have taken account our preferences as some want back to back trips with slightly longer days off and some want shorter.

Leave was an issue, but with the upgrading to the rostering team, I've had no problems booking it recently.

Disruption, tends to only occur with tech issues. Don't normally get a change - standard month is 8 sectors.

[POT NOODLE HORN]

I was under the impression that time from RCA to cpt was 500hrs ?

Have the goal posts moved ???

[adwjenk]

1,000hrs wide body is for direct entry captains.

I think it's 500hrs minimum for a upgrade from RCA to Captain, but it is seniority based, so if you do join as an RCA best not to expect an upgrade after 500hrs like its a God given right.

Time to command for RCA and first officer in Norwegian long haul will properly be quicker then most wide body carriers out there.

Learn the job and the aircraft make the most of flying the 787 and settle into the airline and see if it's for you and for the long run.

[bob777]

Does anybody has received any further info after on line test?

[Wireless]

Fade to grey. 8 sectors doesn't sound bad. Is there a lot of deadheading? There's a lot of vague talk on here, rosters rubbish, rosters ok but despite requests still no examples of what a roster actually looks like. Post it on here in typing format if needs be. With a job that offered minimal to nothing in the way of extras such as healthcare, benefits, pension, the roster and pay are about all that's left to form a picture. The pay has been covered but not the example of what you actually are doing on the line. Thanks.

[The Crew]

Bob, ive heard nothing since the online assessment.
Check your PM .

[SouthoftheEqator]

Same here, no further news since completed the online assessment.

[fade to grey]

Guys asking me via PM about roster.
I can't give you a typical roster, because it's infinitely variable.
This month I've had between 2-4 days off between trips, 4 trips of between 3-4 days duration.

Next month, more days off. I have averaged between 8-13 a month.

[fade to grey]

I don't do any deadheading at all, incidentally, unless there is disruption

[burnable gomi]

Fade: 4 trips of 3-4 days duration is 12-16 days of work. That leaves 14-19 days off a month, not 8-13. What else is on your roster other than your 4 trips?

[Avenger]

Burnable, give the guy a break! he's already said its not precise, but by my maths it adds up to a round 29 days, how many days are there in your months! Maybe "rest" or " "blank" or "STBY" account for the other 2 days:)

[tripulante521]

Don't bother to apply as Relief Captain there are plenty of internal 737 Captains who get priority....

[Zapper27]

Thank you Fade to grey for Sharing this Information about rosters with us.
Are you entiteled to ID Tickets other then Norwegian?

Best regards

Zapper

[Cariboo66]

Hi everyone.
Is it possible to consider commuting with that job ?
Does anyone commutes from continental Europe?
Thank you.

[captplaystation]

NLH pilots have free tickets to/from home base with NAS (but not vice-versa as of yet) so commuting to any destination served frequently from LGW by NAS should be both possible & free of charge.

If not, I believe Easy have "a few" destinations from LGW. :rolleyes:

[fade to grey]

Thanks avenger,
Yes, remember even if gatwick based a variable amount of those trips will start from
Scandinavia thus a four day trip becomes a five day trip for someone in the UK as you have to position the day before of course.

Simply put, imagine a worst month with 8 days off and the rest work or standby or open days.
Imagine a great month with 13 days off, a couple of trips and some standby..
There's your end markers.

The thing about nax 737 skippers given priority as RCas , I'm not sure that's relevant - not many have come as they are giving up a. Command and remember , with all these things, there is no guarantee of subsequent promotion, and the internal upgrade selection is quite a long process now it appears.

[The Crew]

Speculatiog about lifestyles, pay, time off is pointless if you dont even make it to the initial interview stage.
Apparently the plan to conduct interviews in July/ August has been scrapped.

Could it be the failure of NLH to order any new airframes at Paris last week?

[fade to grey]

No idea if that's true,
But whether we order anymore or not we still hav ' several ' coming next year.
I'm looking forward to having a go on the -900 !

[Boeing operator]

Average days off is about 11 at the moment (despite 8 in the contract). It is still a "start-up" and they are still learning, but the idea is to increase this to about half/half. Like in a normal long haul operation. NLH have 8 a/c at the moment. In three years they have more than double - 17 a/c. I am pretty sure that they will know by then how to schedule long haul crews, and that they have better flexibility with 17 a/c to schedule effectively. It will only get better, resulting in more days off per month. That's my guess.

It is a low cost company. They don't keep you on outstation longer than they need. Normally that is 24 hours. So, in three working days you do 20 block hours (average trip is 10 hours). Most guys fly a "W", four legs in six days clocking 40 block hours. You do that twice per month and you have your hours. A couple of standby days on top of that. This is how I believe it will look in a year's time.

A new contract will be out the next few days. The rumor is that the minimum off-days will increase. We'll see.

Upgrade based on seniority. But again, the fleet will more than double the next three years. And more orders on the way...

[Boeing operator]

Rishworth confirm there will be 9 days of screening in July and 3 days in August. 8 guys every day.

NLH need to crew 4 aircraft for next year. That's 100 pilots. The above is just for the two first.

Rumor is that the new sim scenario is in JFK... Do you know your Canarsie approach?! :rolleyes:

[The Crew]

I was on the understanding that sim checks/personal interviews were carried out by Norwegian HQ, and not by Rishworth? The July / Aug screenings must be pre checking out a candidates bank balance before they are allowed to continue any further. As such, I believe there are no final sim checks etc arranged for either July or August.

However, July is only a week away. Most of us have our rosters for July, so Rishworth (or whoever) are not allowing the guys who are hard at it much time to arrange a trip to wherever they decide to screen. Again, not showing much intent to get the best guys. Just them who's keen, retired or unemployed .
Perhaps this is their mission ....

[Boeing operator]

Sorry to say, but I just heard July is fully booked. Maybe your turn next time.

Candidates selected by Norwegian, and screened by Norwegian in Oslo. However, invited by Rishworth.

The crew, if you believe all is a set-up, enjoy the feeling while it lasts...

[fade to grey]

Hell no.
Missing out on the ' best candidates', really ?

Your definition , crew, And ours, may be at odds, if that is the case.

[The Crew]

Yes, really. Anecdotal evidence ...If an invitation is issued to a candidate who has a full roster, they either decline, ask for short term leave or go sick. Most would try re arrange for a future date. Therefore, another candidate takes this interview slot. They may well be less suitable, and for arguments sake, perhaps "between jobs" , they are more flexible (read desperate) to attend any date given. This being a LoCo operation, BA its not, then if the less qualified pilot turns up and passes the interview they should a least expect a place in the holding pool. Sometimes it pays to be unemployed, retired or a wannabe.

patience is a virtue. I still think its a BA hold pool scenario. Recruit as many into it as possible, and then offer positions as needed, to whoever accepts first. I believe B777 pilots are the cheapest to train, and therefore would take precedence. Im now on the big bird, and my 777 is long expired .

[essexboy]

I can only conclude that they have a pretty strong candidate base. 11k+ on smaller boeings and not a sniff of an interview. No idea how the online test went but I think I am fairly normal. Disappointed with the lack of feedback from Rishworth I must say.

[SouthoftheEqator]

Strong candidate database or not is not the issue. Airlines are totally entitled to pick whoever fits their requirements. However, I can only agree with you and your feeling of disappointment. Having also completed the online tests, my only expectation was at least to get a feedback in a "yes" or "no" form such as "your application is currently under review" or "thanks but we will no longer consider your application at this time". Unfortunately, Rishworth is not the only entity to be blamed for this lack of correction. Their lack of respect is not new and after all cannot be ignored by whatever organization asked them to handle the administrative side of the hiring process.

[essexboy]

Totally agree with you SotE that interviews should only be issued on merit as defined by the interviewer age, ratings, experience, inside leg measurement or what ever they choose. My point is that prior to interview it is a numbers game and there are clearly plenty of people with more numbers and boxes ticked than myself. It would just be nice to have an indication of where I stand.

[bob777]

Circa three weeks from on line test no info. Shall I assume a no go?
I think I performed fairly well beside some tech issues with my PC during multitasking...

[The Crew]

There are plenty of posts on PPRUNE regarding the unscrupulous and unethical behaviour of recruitment agencies. The employer in this case is not the agency, not the airline but a third party, set up by an agency whose reputation is allegidly under scrutiny. Enough said.

An earlier posting on this thread said that they finally received a reply from Rishworth a year after applying. Clearly Rishworth will be keeping their cards close to their chests, and as such will not say yay or nay until they need to. Gone are the days of social etiquette and communication. You are expected to Apply, wait, wait more , get frustrated, and hear nothing. Easy, Ryanair are no different. Its the modern era of don't call us.

This is not a P2F job. Its P2L (pay to leave). As such Norwegian are "giving" you the rating, and not deducting the usual fee of around euro 30,000 from your salary. In return you will cough up a returnable deposit. There are very few jobs allowing direct entry and offering a top rating in the process.

However, at the end of the day, many candidates are well paid expats, with kids at private schools, mortgages minimal. Rishworth have no idea how many will actually take the plunge and resign from Emirates, Ethiad, KE, Cx, SQ etc to join a newbie start up.

I suspect the Please F**k Off emails will never arrive.

[Boeing operator]

Rumour in the news is that Norwegian CEO will sign for another 17 Dreamliner the coming weeks. That is then 34 in total the next few years, however unclear how fast they will arrive

I hear 50 is the target.

Give it another two weeks and the terms and conditions have changed. Flight Ops has promised a new contract with improved conditions by the end of June. :ok:

[LNIDA]

My understanding is that OSM aviation, who employe the short haul pilots will in due course become the employer of the long haul pilots. Lets be clear this arrangement is very different from say Brookfield.

Pilots employed by OSM pay taxes and social insurance in the countries where they are based.

The long haul operation appears to be reaching a critical mass, with 8 in service and 4 more due in 2016, the loads are reported to be very good. The 787 is settling down nicely.

[Direct Bondi]

Hard to believe pilots still hand over 40k euro for this gig. The "P2L (pay to leave)" description is appropriate. Any airline participating in such a scheme is making a clear statement - and that statement is:- We have a history of poor labor relations, and have no confidence in our ability to retain you for a 3-year term without subjecting you to a severe financial penalty - (did someone say added stress and anxiety). However....

"a new contract with improved conditions by the end of June"

Crew are presently employed via a double circumvention of employment laws through an agency's broom cupboard affiliate. Any new arrangement may simply remove the broom cupboard element. The circumvention of employment laws will remain, as evidenced by the selective termination of four cabin crew by Norwegian, via instructions to their employer, OSM. Link:-

Flyvertinne slår tilbake mot Norwegian - avviser påstander om illojalitet - nyheter - Dagbladet.no (http://www.dagbladet.no/2015/06/22/nyheter/luftfart/norwegian/39787001/)

Use Google Translate and read all the associated links in the article. Once again, it is interesting to note that the biggest critic of Norwegian's treatment of staff, is the Norway media.

Hopefully, any new contract will create a positive, cooperative and energetic work environment, making the overall flying experience extremely pleasant for both customers and crew.

[Boeing operator]

Direct Bondi; I take it you didn't apply? Your posts are a little on the negative side. I'm curious where you get the energy and time from, writing on this thread so much and clearly doesn't want to join? ;)

Well, I am happy in the company. Far from all pilots are happy, but I would say many are. I believe the conditions will improve. If they don't, I was wrong.

Regarding results from the online tests, my friend was told when asked, that there will be no feedback unless you failed. Moreover, the recruitment process will last for months including several months' of screening. Until all is finished he wouldn't get any feedback.

[highfive]

Not a personal attack, but I gather both Fade to Grey and Boeing operator were unemployed immidiatly prior to signing for NLH, @ BKK base.
They were desperate and perhaps are now suffering from the Stockholm syndrome ?

I can understand this, but its all boils down to making your own luck and ensuring you dont join a company that lays you off or goes bust after a few years. Something that maybe deja vu for the two above, if the euro crisis rumbles on for a couple of more years.

I still cannot believe that this company does not pay any medical insurance , loss of licence, bonus , 13 th month ,
Adequate sick leave , dental cover, hotel allowances?

Can anyone not having hard times seriously consider joining?
Unless you got lucky at the lotto. lol

[JaxofMarlow]

Not often do I react to comments made on here but every now and then something gets stated that is just annoying.

Why write…………...

"but its all boils down to making your own luck and ensuring you dont join a company that lays you off or goes bust after a few years."

Bloody hell. Maybe today EJ, RYR, BA look nice and safe and are recruiting. But will they always be recruiting and when they are not where do you go ? I know your comment is aimed at NLH of which I know sod all except what is on this thread but pilot recruitment has not always been the happy playing field it is just at the moment. Look behind you highfive - there may be an XL pilot nearby.

[fade to grey]

Yeah, I was that desperate I was down to my last 30k....
Think about it.
What I was being offered was contracts in the wrong places, or God forbid the sand.

I was desperate not to go there.

[The Crew]

Give it another two weeks and the terms and conditions have changed. Flight Ops has promised a new contract with improved conditions by the end of June.
Boring , err i mean Boeing , hows your wishful thinking coming along? I think with the deluge of experienced guys queing up, i do hope they renew your contract with an increase to compensate for 3 years of inflation and some? :D

[Gypsy]

How do you know that there is a deluge of experienced guys applying?

Does Rishworth keep you informed?

[The Crew]

PM's . Info frm Middle east / Far east forum . Simple
And mates from KE / THY
Go figure . :D:D

[sia sniffer]

Interview in July. Im easa 787 TRI.
Many rated Skippers from Qatar and even LOT

B777 guys will be interviewed much later, unless you have a Tre tri badge.

If you on the buss, pack yer bags and naff off . No a hope in hell you will get an interview lol .

[Avenger]

Very odd post to say the least! anyway, Rishworth no nothing of moving to OSM, maybe LNIDA has some secret knowledge on this? in any event, i,m current 777 and they offered interview towards end of month, I can't make that and when they discovered I have 3 months notice they seemed less interested. Bond issue was not covered as it is common type, but they mentioned a " training bond" for conversion course? no idea what that means. Final decision is to stay where I am as the T+Cs not quite right at the moment taking into account LOL and Medical, Staff travel etc etc. Good wishes to the rest

[highfive]

A wise decision, Avenger.

Other than the many contractual shortcomings, the following is the reality

Monthly income €10000
equates to Yearly £87000
take home per month, after NI / std rate tax = £5300

My kids education is currently just under half that. And paid for.
Although obviously a basic state school would have to suffice if working for NLH, Plus a modest terrace house somewhere outta town.

My guess , many of the applicants are old n single, divorcees or young and dumb wannabes!

[fullforward]

You make a lot of sense. Congrats!
The T&Cs are just ridiculously outrageous.
It disonour our profession and the ones that gladly take it.

[fade to grey]

High five,
Your figures are wrong.
Your impression of who works here is wrong.
Your impression of my house is wrong.

You are wrong.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

I guess you're one of the luckier ones.

http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/563834-norwegian-last-36-pilots-not-needed-during-winter.html

[mach85]

Hi Fade to Grey.
You seem to be 'in the know'. Any chance you could post the correct figures as im struggling to find a post with the actual £ take home pay for the LGW based guys.

Many thanks,
85

[JaxofMarlow]

Given the apparent accuracy of the new thread confirmed by insiders why the hell would it actually matter what the correct figures are. Just cannot imagine why anyone gives them a second thought.