Norwegian B787 - LGW based

[Speedbrakes Up]

I have heard from friends inside Norwegian that lots of changes are happening to the basing situation.

Could be interesting to see what happens.

[Bunkbastard]

I think he is trying to save a few good men and woman making a wrong decision in joining an agency who is employing contractors to operate Norwegian planes. Either under Irish, UK or Norwegian registration. If you speak up a bit about anything (20 days away from home in a row? Bad sick pay? Floating bases? Clowns in management bending the rules to upgrade themselves ahead of the group, and changing the rules after their own upgrade) within the company you are thrown out after your 2-3 year contract.

UK based longhaul pilots not paying tax to the HMRC?

Hey , it's all hearsay, but from good sources.
I work at Bondi´s favourite airline.
1) I am not away 20 days in a row. Minimum trip 3 days, maximum 7. Unless you commute from a less accessible area of the world.
2) 30 days sick leave. Do you need more?
3) Base policy changing to a mix of bidding between fixed, floating or gateway.
4) Clowns in management! Sure there are. I just haven´t met them yet.
5) Everybody gets their contracts renewed. We need them.
6) Taxes payed in UK or your country of residence.

So far I have only encountered nice and friendly and easygoing people. Every scheduling request has been awarded. Just the few usual complaints.
I am very happy with my choice. If you feel repulsed by my airline, try and take a wild guess at what my advice to you would be!

[Luibar]

Bunkbastard,

3) Base policy changing to a mix of bidding between fixed, floating or gateway.

Is it possible to choose not being based in LGW but to a have specific gateway to start your duty? So it means you can commute?

6) Taxes payed in UK or your country of residence.


Connected with point 3) above? No based at LGW you pay taxes on your home base?

Thanks

[Bunkbastard]

The new base policy has not been finalised yet, but this is what we expect. Should make it much easier to commute.
Regarding taxes, you will have to talk to someone more competent than me.

[Direct Bondi]

everybody whose 3year contract ended got a new permanent contract with OSM

The “permanent” employment contract with Orient Ship Management is for a temporary and precarious indirect position with Norwegian (any notice period is with your employer agency, not Norwegian). Moreover, due to clauses indemnifying the agency, that “permanent” contract may not be so permanent – READ IT!

A shelf-stacker employed by a UK supermarket has more employment rights than a LGW based 787 or 737 pilot flying for Norwegian.

Here’s some of what the European Commission has to say in their 310-page report, Atypical Employment in Aviation, when describing novel and complex labor models, as used by the smiling rock ape:

"It has been noted that oftentimes the individuals concerned are no longer incentivized to organize themselves, as this may have detrimental repercussions upon their employment relationships in an already highly competitive environment"

The full report can be downloaded at (large file):

https://www.eurocockpit.be/sites/default/files/report_atypical_employment_in_aviation_15_0212_f.pdf

Have you read the report Violeta?

[Parkbremse]

You see Bondi, when you want your opinion to be taken seriously, you should at least be precise in your argumentation. What you do however, is taking quotes out of context to undermine your point and just hope that nobody checks up on your "facts" because the report has 310 pages.

Your quote is on page 65 of the report in a paragraph about the situation of trade unions in the aviation sector specifically in germany. It has no connection to the situation in Norway or in Norwegian Airlines. If you want some background, i guess (a little bit of speculation on my part, i didnt write the report) what they refer to is the situation in germany that by german national law, pilots are specifically excluded from establishing a works council (according BetrVG) and the only option they have to establish one is to get their employer to recognize a union and establish a collective agreement, granting the pilots and theier work council the same rights as every other employee in germany already has. Of course, it all depends on the good will of the airline and there have been several cases in germany where the airline outright denied the pilots union recogniton and fired (or at least threatened to) the pilots trying to organize it. So yes, naturally these "...individuals concerned are no longer incentivized to organize themselves, as this may have detrimental repercussions upon their employment relationships in an already highly competitive environment". This is of course made worse by forms of non direct employment, however in germany, these types of employment are rare.

Also, while the report has financial support from the European Commission, it is neither from the EC nor is it their position. It is the work of four scientists from Ghent University and it is their position and opinion alone. The disclaimer is actually very specific on this, read it up in your document.

[Direct Bondi]

It has no connection to the situation in Norway or in Norwegian Airlines
It is absolutely applicable to Norwegian. You might review post #656 of this thread:

Officially there is freedom of association in NLH but the truth is quite different.
Of the three pilots who were selected to represent their colleagues, two of them a week ago received an email by management explaining that their 3-year contract which expires at the end of 2016 will not be renewed.
Here is another extract from the EU Commission funded report, absolutely applicable to Norwegian:

“Civil aviation legislation does not take into account the prevalence of different forms of atypical employment and outsourcing in the rapidly changing civil aviation industry. Moreover, social legislation is not able to tackle the new phenomena, leaving room for elaborate subcontracting chains and elaborate social as well as fiscal engineering. As a result, the competition nowadays is a true race to the bottom, which affects fair competition and worker’s rights as well as raises important issues in the field of safety and liability.

It need be noted that lacking general transparency and oversight in the aviation sector by labor inspection authorities render it highly difficult to distinguish between the legal reality and the de facto conditions crew members are subjected to. Moreover, mindful of the transitional nature of contemporary airline employers and the establishment of bases and subsidiaries across and outside Europe, in conjunction with free movement provisions enshrined in the Treaties, it is becoming increasingly more difficult to verify compliance with European provisions of the employment conditions of crew members. The lacking oversight and subsequent enforcement not inconceivably – further prompt lower compliance and abuse of the lacunas in European aviation law”

Bottom line:

A shelf-stacker employed by a UK supermarket has more employment rights than a LGW based 787 or 737 pilot flying for Norwegian.

I urge all those applying to Orient Ship Management or Rishworth for an indirect, temporary position with Norwegian, to read the EU Commission funded report and a copy of the respective agency employment contract:

https://www.eurocockpit.be/sites/default/files/report_atypical_employment_in_aviation_15_0212_f.pdf

[Luibar]

@Bunkbastard

Thanks.

[trancada]

See the latest interview:

https://skift.com/2016/10/06/norwegian-air-ceo-interview-regulators-and-airlines-are-afraid-of-us/

[7Q Off]

just curious, I read that for captain they require X amount of hours as widebody or narrow body in long haul ops? what they consider long haul in a narrow body? Flight of more than 6 hs in a 757/737/A320??

for what I understand is that they require 2500 hs as pic on efis aircraft and 1000 hs in long haul in wide body or narrow body but they dont require to be as PIC. I am correct?

[Pontius]

Hi 7Q,

I know I'm not much help but there does seem to be a difference between the requirements of Rishworth (for the LGW-based crews) and those of OSM (for the FLL crew). The LGW requirements do not mention narrow body in longhaul operations. From the Rishworth brief:

Minimum experience required
Commander: 6,000 hours total time, 2,500 PIC hours on any EFIS commercial jet aircraft. 1,000 hours on a wide body aircraft.
Current type rating in EASA license.

Given this, I would suggest that no PIC on a wide body is required but, no doubt, I'm sure they would prefer that over narrow body experience.

I think only the agencies can answer your specific question (which I think is a good one), so why not give them a quick call/email and ask them directly.

[7Q Off]

rishworth changed the req

http://www.rishworthaviation.com/Opportunity/3667/b787-captain-norwegian-type-rated-and-non-type-rated.aspx

I was just curious, I dont have an easa licence to apply right now.

[smiling monkey]

If and when the US bases eventuate, will the aircraft be N registered?

[Jonnyknoxville]

Any news on the new and better contract they are offering ?

[pilot hans]

Are there rosters available?

[captplaystation]

jonnyknoxsville,

here it is (just joking, but this is the level they should be at , with renumeration/roster etc. . . it is a long-haul operation isn't it ? )


https://jobs.flightglobal.com/job/1401449788/fly-b787-ntr-captain-role-available-/?TrackID=225115&BatchID=1753&cmpid=EMP%7CJOBS%7CFGJOB-Jobsbyemail#sc=jbe&me=email&cm=2016-11-02

[VanDeures]

Any news on the new and better contract they are offering ?

Hi Jhonny,

I heard 5250 euro base pay and 1100 euro Per diem plus some for the phone. So around 6390 euro I guess for a FO position.

I have this information as the third link, from a NAX pilot.

It has yet to be confirmed officially...

[Luibar]

Since Norwegian is recruiting for another bases than LGW how is it going to work? Are the pilots based in Barcelona, Amsterdam, Paris and Gatwick or they will be using some kind of Gateways in order to get pilots rostered from the various bases?

It will be interesting to see what the new pay proposal is for all positions, captain, cruise captain and first officer.

[Meester proach]

PlayStation,
The Chinese carriers pay more for obvious reasons - month on month off .
You wanna go touring that long ?

[captplaystation]

Meester proach,

I am not there , so cannot vouch for it, but there was a period that the time away from home was reported to be fairly considerable, & roster stability appalling, at NAI LH.

I don't know how it is now, but the guaranteed days off are nothing special.

[Fletner007]

Dear All,


After completion of the online tests, how long does it take to be replied?


Thank you.

[Direct Bondi]

Read the next post then carefully ask the third-party agency employer.

[Direct Bondi]

Apparently, the promised Dreamyliner lifestyle is not as advertised and no one wants to post roster details.

Those daring to ask OSM or Rishworth to explain protracted recruitment procedures, provide more information on work patterns or other "employment" concerns, may trigger additional screening – the solicitation of “answer all your questions” a possible tactic to reveal those who might later reject the Kjos Kool-Aid. Be very wary of pledges from Norwegian’s inept managers seeking to masterfully hammer home a purported ‘open door’ policy.

The BA announced saturation of specific US routes may damage Norwegian. In many instances the superior BA all inclusive ticket price is less than Norwegian’s a la carte, high costs total. This, combined with the DOT refusing to budge on NA UK’s permit application following a recent EU-US meeting, makes for a not so smiling rock ape:-

“In response to a question from the European delegation regarding the timing of the DOT review process, the U.S. delegation did not provide any deadline or estimated date for further DOT action on the application, noting that it would be inappropriate to speculate on a pending regulatory matter”

With proposed variable bases and the associated multiple employment law jurisdictions, Norwegian’s circumvention employment model will become more novel and more complex. Don’t expect a DOT decision on the NAI or NA UK Foreign Air Carrier permits anytime soon.

Meanwhile, the Scandinavian reputation for quality of working life and trust continues to be willfully eroded.

[Jonnyknoxville]

I got 3 months worth of rosters from a friend of mine , about 12 months ago now , apart from the insulting contract , this was reason enough not to apply .

[sealear]

The contract is disgraceful. Then again, P2F exists so.........

[Luibar]

According to Rishworth site the new package is a 5% pay increase and the availability of new bases. Is there anytinhg else?

[samca]

So what are exactly this improve conditions? A part of pay for a new type rating...

[samca]

I heard that improve conditions seems to be 300 Euros moré per month...😲

[Falck]

Two questions for somebody who might know.

What is the job prescription of a relief Captain in Norwegian? What do you do?

And how do you log these hours in your logbook?

[WTON]

Above 20000ft you may be the Captain, should the PIC has taken his rest on long haul flight.
So usualy you keep the right seat, in the event of depressurization, you will act as Commander.
At the sim you should received the appropriate training.

[Push to talk]

Incorrect WTON, I understand the captain on the norwegian flights is still in command, regardless of being in the crew rest or not. He is not off his duty and is the PIC the whole time, unlike airlines to the likes of Emirates. He just deligates the controls of the aircraft. So no logging of PIC time for the RCA! Would also be fraud if the RCA would log it as such as more people log PIC at the same time otherwise.
And the RCA position with Norwegian is more like that of a senior First Officer who can sit in the left seat. Just the name of the position includes the word captain. The actual role is not!

[gtaflyer]

Guys consider them if u desperate but I found both NW and RW to be bunch of time wasters unprofessional and well u can find out yourself just go to one of their roadshows...

[salamaleikum]

It is the same in Emirates, and as far as I know in every company in the world. Each flight has ONE designated commander, wether he is in the cockpit, taking a piss or in the bunk...

[Direct Bondi]

The US DOT has linked the Norwegian UK permit application to the “Ireland based” NAI application. The permits affect the long haul ambition of Kjos. Most recently the EU has appointed Giorgio Sacerdoti as its arbitrator in the ongoing NAI matter:

https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/arbitrator-appointed-on-cork-to-us-flights-deadlock-431867.html

“Under arbitration, the EU and US will each name an arbitrator, while a third arbitrator will be appointed by mutual consent”

A new DOT Secretary has yet to be appointed:

http://ttnews.com/articles/basetemplate.aspx?storyid=44013&t=Trump-Team-Evaluates-Candidates-for-DOT-Secretary

Those supporting NAI appear worried the new administration of President elect Trump may decide to review the NAI application. Ireland South MEP, Deirdre Clune, has written to DOT Secretary Foxx asking that he “swiftly conclude this matter within the time frame of the current US political administration”:

http://www.irishcentral.com/business/case-for-cheap-norwegian-air-flights-from-cork-to-us-to-settled-by-arbitrator

It may not have been prudent for EU Transport Commissioner, Violeta Bulc, to notify the DOT that not granting NAI a US permit could affect trade agreements. Given the rhetoric of President elect Trump, Bulc’s communication is likely to hinder rather than assist the NAI and NA UK applications.

The Irish Times published a letter from the Irish Airline Pilots’ Association President, Captain Evan Cullen, regarding Norwegian’s Irish venture, in which he states, “The objection is purely on the undermining of EU-US labor standards that the Norwegian proposal represents”:

http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/opposition-to-norwegian-air-international-s-plan-1.2749410

In an interview with Kjos, Norway’s VG newspaper reported that; ”Norwegian boss is crystal clear that he is not at all interested in negotiating the pilots demands for connection to the parent NAS - This will eliminate our ability to finance the 240 planes. With such a model we would not have gotten the funding of the banks to operate”:

http://www.vg.no/nyheter/innenriks/kjos-om-pilotenes-hovedkrav-uaktuelt/a/23408996/

Article 17 of the EU-US Air Transport Agreement (Open Skies) does not permit an undermining of labor standards, labor rights and labor principles by the participating parties. This may include using novel and complex labor models to circumvent direct employment relationships. Particularly if doing so would provide an unfair competitive advantage over those participating parties fully complying with the Agreement.

[SR71]

In an interview with Kjos, Norway’s VG newspaper reported that; ”Norwegian boss is crystal clear that he is not at all interested in negotiating the pilots demands for connection to the parent NAS - This will eliminate our ability to finance the 240 planes. With such a model we would not have gotten the funding of the banks to operate”:

Kjos om pilotenes hovedkrav: ? Uaktuelt - VG (http://www.vg.no/nyheter/innenriks/k...lt/a/23408996/)


This is a staggering admission.

One wonders what exactly it was that Kjos told the banks about the relationship between his employees and their airline?

:=

[Direct Bondi]

Last Friday, 25th, a Norwegian 737 slipped off the hard surface at Umea, Sweden:

“The landing went well, but the aircraft came off the runway”:

http://www.vk.se/1869794/flygplan-gled-av-landningsbanan (http://www.vk.se/1869794/flygplan-gled-av-landningsbanan)

I hope the crew is directly employed with trade union representation. In the past, agency crew without trade union representation were summarily terminated after an occurrence, but before any official investigation to determine cause (ref JFK).

In an unrelated incident:

“I was so angry I was shaking when I saw the ugly treatment dogs got”

http://www.dagbladet.no/nyheter/hundeeier---jeg-ble-sa-sint-at-jeg-skalv-da-jeg-sa-den-stygge-behandlingen-hundene-fikk/65365847 (http://www.dagbladet.no/nyheter/hundeeier---jeg-ble-sa-sint-at-jeg-skalv-da-jeg-sa-den-stygge-behandlingen-hundene-fikk/65365847)

I doubt the dogs’ owner will be voting Norwegian ‘best in show’ after their rough treatment.

[scifi]

I think that begs the question...


'Why is that Baggage Handler required to lift heavy objects above his head?'


Must be a Health and Safety violation by Management.
.

[A and C]

Got to take my hat off to you Bondi very few dogs will hang on to a bone for this long.

[JW411]

I have to agree with you A and C.

I have met the odd character in my long aviation career who wanted to conduct a life-long grudge about something or other but Direct Bondi definitely deserves some sort of special accolade.

Regardless of how badly I think I might have imagined I had been treated by persons or persons unknown, I would have given up a long time ago.

As a retired outsider he appears to me to be getting nowhere, for the airline seems to be getting bigger and bigger as the years go by regardless of his input.

Perhaps I could recommend him for the PYNWBG award?

(Picking Your Nose With Boxing Gloves)

[Direct Bondi]

JW411,
Regardless of how badly I think I might have imagined I had been treated by persons or persons unknown,
Do try and make some sense man.

Apparently, you support Kjos and his labor model race to the bottom. Perhaps you could also recommend him for an award. I suggest the accolade;

Complete, unequivocal, Norwegian talent.

[adolf hucker]

Although Bondi's campaign seems slightly crazed and is certainly tedious, perhaps he feels he is exacting some sort of retribution against an organisation which he clearly feels has screwed him. I can sympathise to a point but would suggest that, as he clearly failed to address his grievances while in Norwegian, he might be better served by putting it down to experience and moving on. Then again, perhaps he feels he really is making a difference with his contributions. If his aim is to tarnish the company and discourage others from joining, he might be more effective if he added some balance and came across a bit less 'rain man'.

[Direct Bondi]

campaign seems slightly crazed and is certainly tedious“campaign” – not at all.
Objections and responses to ongoing reports relating to Norwegian’s abhorrent labor model. You may not be aware that others also object, including the six million members of the AFL-CIO federation of unions and; ALPA, IALPA, ECA, European Transport Workers Union ETF, Southwest Airlines Pilots Association SWAPA, Association of Flight Attendants AFA, the list goes on.

“crazed” – hardly.
Perhaps if posts were written unintelligibly and without supporting evidence in the form of factual reports, mostly with direct links to the source.

“tedious” – then read something else.

Conversely, I doubt you apply your criteria to those perpetually supporting the Kjos regime.

If his aim is to tarnish the company and discourage others from joining, he might be more effective ifhe added some balance and came across a bit less 'rain man'.Norwegian is highly proficient at tarnishing themselves and discouraging applications without any assistance from me.

Balancing the scales of labor rights and labor principles, you will find at Norwegian it is firmly tipped against the crew member (read my posts).

The new DOT Secretary, Elaine Chao, is a former Secretary of Labor and former Deputy Administrator of the Maritime Administration. She will be familiar with 'flags of convenience' and may be sympathetic to union concerns regarding Norwegian's labor model:

http://www.theverge.com/2016/11/29/13777014/elaine-chao-transportation-secretary-trump-administration (http://www.theverge.com/2016/11/29/13777014/elaine-chao-transportation-secretary-trump-administration)

After almost three years, Norwegian still does not have its US Permits. News from Washington would suggest it may be raining on Norwegian's application for some time:

http://centreforaviation.com/analysis/president-trump-and-us-aviation-a-likely-reversion-to-protectionism-312463 (http://centreforaviation.com/analysis/president-trump-and-us-aviation-a-likely-reversion-to-protectionism-312463)

[sprite1]

Direct Bondi is an admirable poster who can back up what he says. He's as negative about Norwegian as some here are positive.

I wouldn't fault someone who continues to be a thorn as such in Norwegian's side for as long as Norwegian keep their current tack regarding contracts, pay levels, etc.

All's fair in love and war, as one manager once said to me during a dispute.

[NEDude]

Elaine Chao has never been sympathetic to the cause of labor. There is absolutely no reason to think she will start now.

[JaxofMarlow]

I would have more sympathy with the Bondi detractors if just once one of them could put up a reasoned argument against all the points he makes. But no, this never ever happens. As it is the labour model employed by Norwegian that occupies the central tenant of his argument I do wonder why anyone on here would support it, which is probably exactly why there remains radio silence. If you want him to quieten down, then put up a case for the defence please.

[Parkbremse]

You see, I could take him more seriously if he was actually just reporting facts but that's not what he's doing. He quotes from reports out of context or uses anecdotal forum posts to support his position, like he did with that labour report or latest with that CAPA analysis, which goes much deeper than a simple suggestion, "that it might be raining on Norwegians application", which the report neither explicitly says nor implies.

So what are the facts? Norwegian employs contracted pilots through agencies. Certainly not ideal but also neither new nor abhorrent.

Terms and Conditions? I think some people need to have a serious reality check about terms and conditions outside the legacy carriers on offer nowadays and I would ask anybody to point to any operator in Europe, where you can enter directly with some experience as a Relief Captain and earn a 100k€ (total package)

[Monarch Man]

Parkbremse, ermmm define exactly what you mean by out of context? A quick review of Bondi's efforts reveals very little in the way of contextual license, moreover the opinion offered is merely a reflection of the facts as they are presented.
For me Bondi has had a direct and positive influence on my decision making process thanks to me being able to ask the various contracting agencies specific questions relating to the various issues highlighted, in every case I've received at best a vague bit of waffle about nothing in particular which has convinced me to steer well clear of this sh1t outfit.
Sadly, there is always a % of koolaid drinkers everywhere, perhaps you are one of them Parkbremse? or maybe you are one of the koolaid providers?

[JaxofMarlow]

Parkbremse. What tosh. Contracting is supposed to be used by proper employers as a means of managing peaks and troughs in demand. This way the majority are paying proper tax and social security (NI in the UK) payments and make required NI contributions - along with a lot of other labour and worker protection benefits. Norwegian do not do this.

[Parkbremse]

Yeah right...

Everybody with Base LGW (and also Norwegian) will pay full NIC in the UK independent of their place of living as this is european legislation (educate yourself) and tax according to the bilateral agreement between UK and the country of living. So don't give me that BS about social security evasion...

Workers rights, yes that is better with a direct employement. Like i said, contracting work is certainly not ideal. How much that really matters when things get bad... well, i can quote a handful of examples from my home country where direct employement and supposedly very good workers rights have not mattered one bit and protected the individuals when things with the company for various reasons got bad. So ideal, certainly not like i said but abhorrent? A lot of practices in this industry are abhorrent, independent of contracts or direct employement and whether we talk about the EU or the US, if you wanna fight that, yeah more power to you but thats a totally different battle altogether.

[JaxofMarlow]

Parkbremse. So, you think Norwegian re paying employer NI contributions for their self employed contract pilots. Hmmmmm. Education is a wonderful thing.

[Parkbremse]

This is getting ridiculous...

Pilots in Norwegian are not self employed :ugh:

[JaxofMarlow]

Ok.... so I may have misunderstood the modus operandi of OSM/Rishworth. I obviously do not work for Norwegian, but then, clearly, nor does anyone else.

[NEDude]

Who really cares where your official employment is, as long as the paycheck comes in. As someone who has lost three direct employment jobs in this industry I can assure you that direct employment is not secure either. The simple fact is if the airline is doing well, the paycheck comes in, if the airline is not doing well, the paycheck is in danger of stopping. How your employment contract is set up does not matter. Two of the jobs lost were union jobs and that did not matter either.

[nosmo king]

I certainly care about who my employer is and the need for having a clearly defined relationship, as this is the corner stone as to my rights as an employee.

That relationship has got nothing to do with the profitability of the company and its likely longevity.

Ryanair, Ezy and now Norwegian are killing our profession by allowing the workforce to be employed on ever lower T&Cs, how are they doing that? primarily by employing pilots as individuals rather than as one workforce, thus allowing them to introduce a million different contracts.

[Parkbremse]

Where was the public outcry when Lufthansa outsourced longhaul holiday charter (US and Carribean and SE Asia) via Eurowings to Sun Express Germany, who pay for a Captain on A330 85k€ a year? At least Norwegian pays 100k€ for a RCA, 125k€ for a Captain (including allowance) which is not super good but really not that bad for europe. EW got DOT approval right away with no opposition from US Airlines or Unions, so all this talk about terms and conditions and lowering the standards is hypocritical, with the true reason being protectionism and fear of competition of an Airline, who seems to do it right and grows rapidly. Every company has the right to make maximum use of the available legislation to cut their costs and before anyone now explodes, think of the immense benefits that all major US airlines are reaping now after they took advantage of Chapter 11 restructuring.

And again, contracted work is not ideal but i still fail to see how this contract differs in any way from other contracts that are offered through Rishworth (or your favourite broker) which pilots have happily accepted for years everywhere in the world. And talking about Terms and Conditions, I invite anyone to point me to another job opening in the EU, where you can actually earn that kind of money with a similar career perspective and the ability to live where you want (in the EU)?

To summarize, a way one can see the Norwegian contract is that it's much like a chinese lunch buffet. It's not super good, but it's not as bad as it looks ;-)

[CaptainProp]

Not only LH/EW but also CityLine opperating 340s, that was as much dumping of T&Cs as anything else we see today in the industry. Isn't AF/KLM also starting long haul low cost airline with different T&Cs to mainline crew?

[ExDubai]

NAI got the approval from the DOT....

EXCLUSIVE: Norwegian Air granted licence paving way for first ever direct routes between Cork and US - Independent.ie (http://m.independent.ie/business/exclusive-norwegian-air-granted-licence-paving-way-for-first-ever-direct-routes-between-cork-and-us-35264435.html)

Didn't expect that, thought the decision would be done by the new Administration

[INKJET]

It was only a matter of time before NAI would be granted DOT approval, of course the Donald may overturn it, but that is unlikely, in any event the US pilots and various union groups backed the wrong horse and contributed massively to Clintons campaign.

Next up is NUK and that should be an even more straight forward case.

Direct Bondi

DC is clearly an articulate contributor and from the outside much of what he/she writes makes some sense, however from the inside whilst acknowledging the factual elements, it does rather comes across as agenda driven, especial given the huge amount of content and research & time DC puts in, which rather begs the question as to why? (there are far worse airlines out there)

I belive DC briefly worked for a agency on behalf of Norwegian, so has some knowledge and no doubt a few contacts, but much as changed, so there needs to be balance.

I enjoy reading his posts but they have become more bitter over time.

When i joined Norwegian I was never offered direct employment with Norwegian, i was offered the potential of permanent employment after 2 - 3 years, which came to pass, in the early days there were issues over NI and in some cases tax, but that is history, all SH are employed by OSM (outside of K area) OSM is now 50% owned by Norwegian and pay local NI in country base and tax.

So there is no non compliance with tax/NI regulations.

The roster are tough and depending on base you will work close to the 900 hour limit.

For me after 5 years it works well, i live close to where work, get (well) paid every month, its not perfect but who is these days?

I know next to nothing about the long haul set up but position their crews around a lot and sometimes stay in the same hotel, most are happy, but again roster are an issue.

[Direct Bondi]

“ALPA is considering all options to reverse this action” - Link:

News Room - ALPA (http://www.alpa.org/news-and-events/news-room/2016-12-02-ALPA-blasts-DOT-norwegian-air-international-decision)

Norwegian continues to declare on its website that it complies with the International Labor Organization core conventions with respect to workers rights - it categorically does not:

http://www.norwegian.com/uk/about/company/corporate-responsibility/human-worth/

[Popgun]

Lets hope ALPA is successful in applying pressure to the new Trump administration and getting this decision overturned.

The sooner this kind of sleazy setup is halted the better.

[INKJET]

The DoT have had THREE YEARS to find cause to reject this proposal, they have had the best lawyers money can buy and the advice that came back is that the application is lawful and meets the requirement under open skies for grant of traffic rights.

Trump may of course overturn the ruling but I think thats very unlikely, even if he did so, then you are back to arbitration and simply saying no without just cause will simply result in the EU taking retaliatory action.

This result is so Brexit like, with people who have campaigned strongly for their position being unable to accept a verdict that does not accord with their position.

Trump will see this dispute for what it, protectionism, to protect a cosy club of mainly American airlines and a few inefficient European ones (AF/KLM, SAS & Lufthansa) wanting to maintain high prices across the pond as a money tree to prop up their loss making European short haul operations, Interestingly IAG supports the application as do many airports and regions in the US that benefit from inward tourism.

Norwegian probably need to move further with its employment methods and based on the changes to SH i suspect they will.

With oil prices on the rise again the economics of the 787 will get stronger with $ increase, by this time next year there will be dozens of flight a week from the US East coast to the west coast of Europe on the MAX in and out of smaller regional airports.

I would expect to see a raft of route announcement before Xmas

[ExDubai]

Let's see how this will end.....
Bipartisan Bill Introduced to Stop Short-Sighted DOT Decision to Allow Norwegian Air Operations in the U.S. | House Committee on Transportation & Infrastructure (http://democrats.transportation.house.gov/news/press-releases/bipartisan-bill-introduced-stop-short-sighted-dot-decision-allow-norwegian-air)

Washington, D.C. – Today, Representatives Peter DeFazio (D-OR), Frank LoBiondo (R-NJ), Rick Larsen (D-WA), and Lynn Westmoreland (R-GA), introduced H.R. 5090, legislation that would prevent the U.S. Department of Transportation (DOT) from permitting a foreign air carrier to operate between European countries and the United States unless the carrier complies with basic, fair U.S. or European Union labor standards. The legislation was introduced in response to the DOT’s tentative decision to grant a permit to Norwegian Air International (NAI). NAI established itself in Ireland, where labor laws permit the airline to hire its pilots and flight attendants on individual employment contracts under non-European law in order to cut costs. NAI’s overt practice of labor forum-shopping violates our Open Skies agreement with Norway and the European Union and gives it an unfair competitive advantage in the transatlantic market.

“Consumers may purchase tickets on Norwegian.com and they may board planes marked Norwegian in big bold letters, but this airline is ‘Norwegian’ in name only. The DOT record shows that Norwegian Air International is headquartered in Ireland and employs contract crews based in Thailand to circumvent Norway’s fair and strong labor standards. It’s a virtual airline set up to undercut competition by exploiting cheap labor. Our bipartisan legislation sends a strong message to DOT—we must stop this race to the bottom, and protect the open and fair transatlantic aviation market,” said DeFazio.

“Norwegian Airlines has sidestepped the bedrock labor agreements that are the foundation of the US-EU Air Transport Agreement. In so doing, they have compromised the competitiveness of American air carriers. There has been long-standing opposition in Congress to permitting this to go forward. The U.S. Department of Transportation must reconsider its position,” said LoBiondo.

“My colleagues and I have been clear with DOT that strong labor standards must factor into NAI’s air carrier permit decision. Today we are introducing legislation that would prohibit DOT from issuing a permit to NAI if doing so would undermine labor standards,” Larsen said. “Granting an air carrier permit to NAI would say to the world that the U.S. rewards other countries that break their commitments to protecting workers. Our agreements with other countries are only as strong as our ability and willingness to enforce them, which is why I am pushing hard for the U.S. to hold other countries accountable for their end of the deal,” said Larsen.

Article 17 bis of the U.S.-EU-Iceland-Norway Open Skies Agreement states that “[t]he opportunities created by the Agreement are not intended to undermine labour standards or the labour-related rights and principles contained in the Parties’ respective laws” and further requires that these “principles . . . shall guide the Parties as they implement the Agreement.” With the decision to grant temporary approval, DOT has decided provisions in the U.S.–EU Agreement that address labor are not, on their own, a sufficient basis for rejecting an otherwise-qualified applicant.

The bipartisan legislation introduced today would require the DOT to find that a permit is consistent with article 17 bis before issuing a permit, maintaining the competitive balance in the transatlantic aviation marketplace.

In 2013, NAI applied for a foreign air carrier permit to permanently operate in the United States. DOT granted tentative approval on April 15, 2016. Behind the NAI application is a global outsourcing business model that will put U.S. airlines and their employees at a competitive disadvantage. U.S. and other European carriers rightly adhere to the high labor standards created through decades of hard work and commitment to a sustainable and socially-responsible aviation system. The point of Open Skies is to create an environment that fosters competition, not flags of convenience.

Yesterday, DeFazio, LoBiondo, and Larsen sent a letter urging the Department, in the strongest possible terms, to set aside the flawed tentative decision on Norwegian’s permit application and to deny the application.

[Popgun]

"Norwegian in name only". Indeed.

Nice to see some politicians standing up to the sleazy and deceitful business model that is Norwegian.

[Direct Bondi]

Before the US election both Sanders and Clinton made statements opposing Norwegian’s race to the bottom scheme. No doubt this was to ensure workers votes. It is ultimately an Obama, workers betrayal. Considering the reaction to the misguided DOT decision, you may expect an uprising of opposition unprecedented in the airline industry. In a press release the Transport Trades Department of the AFL-CIO posted (12/3);

“Given the disgust with our trade policies expressed loudly by American voters on November 8, it is especially galling that the Administration has ignored the wants of the American people in favor of a rogue, foreign airline. We urge Congress to take whatever action is needed to undo this decision and prevent NAI and similar business models from poisoning the trans-Atlantic aviation market”

http://ttd.org/news-and-media/press-releases/approval-of-norwegian-air-international-permit-a-betrayal-of-u-s-aviation-workers/

Southwest Airlines Pilot Association also posted a press release (12/2);

“Captain Weaks noted that the NAI subsidiary and its use of contract workers hired by a foreign staffing agency also poses potential serious safety risks. Crewmembers working under employment contracts with no direct line of communication to airline management often lack the ability to highlight potential safety oroperational issues. Clear and open communication between frontline operators and airline management is critical to running a safe and efficient airline."

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/swapa-condemns-dot-approval-of-norwegian-foreign-air-carrier-permit-300372453.html

There are specific examples of the adverse safety affects associated with Norwegian’s labor model, involving extensive use of multi jurisdictional agency crew with no direct employment relationship to the airline. The most publicised being Norwegian's flight DY7006, JFK-ARN. Following an illegal flight across the Atlantic, some of the agency crew were summarily terminated before Norwegian conducted a proper and thorough internal safety investigation, as legislatively required by their AOC. The crew were quickly rehired after the Norway CAA became involved;

“As part of the work the company does, they should carry out all the employees who were involved to conversations and interviews, says CAA operational director - Einar Schjølberg”

http://www.dagbladet.no/2015/02/18/nyheter/flysikkerhet/norwegian/37782004/

Of course, “conversations and interviews” are difficult to accomplish when some of the crew were immediately fired and no longer with the airline;

“I was told that I had been fired and the decision had been taken at the very top”

“A week later she suddenly got a new message that she was not dismissed, but suspended with pay while an independent investigation was ongoing”

“Feel exposed to witch-hunt from Kjos from Norwegian argument”

http://www.dagbladet.no/2015/03/03/nyheter/innenriks/utenriks/norwegian/bjorn_kjos/37978024/

http://www.dagbladet.no/2015/06/23/nyheter/norwegian/luftfart/39793427/

A labor model where crew members “feel exposed to a witch-hunt” from the airline CEO, and/or punitive action taken against them after reporting safety concerns, can only be described as abhorrent and should be outlawed. Incidentally, the Captain involved had previously written a letter to the DOT in support of NAI and, to my knowledge, was not summarily terminated.

Norwegian has a history of silencing crew they perceive as critical of the regime;

“Norwegian has kicked [sacked] senior safety representative during strike”

http://www.dagbladet.no/2015/08/07/nyheter/norwegian/luftfart/40523738/

Norwegian later agreed to a settlement, however;

“Reprehensible issues came up during the trial on Monday and Tuesday that makes NPU need to see concrete changes of the company”

http://www.dn.no/nyheter/politikkSamfunn/2015/12/04/1220/Norwegian/norwegian-inngikk-forlik-med-hovedverneombud

The purveyors of Norwegian’s “employment” snake-oil and insatiable consumers of Kjos Kool-Aid are no doubt expecting further sales and licking their lips after the recent DOT decision. But it was only in late July this year that 90% of Norwegian’s Spanish cabin crew surveyed were so disillusioned with their treatment by Norwegian, they were ready to strike;

http://www.dagbladet.no/nyheter/her-er-norwegians-ukjente-ansatte-feider/60311265

Late last year 30% of the 800 Norwegian pilots surveyed were looking for a new job and 75% would not recommend Norwegian as an “employer”;

http://www.dn.no/nyheter/naringsliv/2015/09/26/0859/halvparten-av-norwegianpilotene-nsker--slutte

Even the Norway press refers to Kjos as “The boss and spin doctor”;

http://www.dn.no/meninger/2016/07/08/2122/Uten-filter/kjos-flymaskin-og-spinneri-ltd

Strong stuff that Norwegian “employment” snake-oil, and may even remove paint – in addition to removing labor rights and labor principles.

[SR71]

Incident: Norwegian B738 at Kristiansand on Nov 4th 2016, "racing start" (http://www.avherald.com/h?article=4a1ae8c4&opt=0)

Norwegian 738 incident. Go2Sky Pilots "contracted" in?

Connect the dots.

[skull]

Comair Flight 5191, marketed as Delta Connection Flight 5191.... Dots connected SR71. There is a laundry list available if needed.

Pathetic

[SR71]

skull,

I'm sure there was a question mark in there somewhere...

But you're right. No one has a monopoly on stupidity.

Well done.

[maximus610]

Green Light for Norwegian | Airliner World (http://www.airlinerworld.com/2016/12/green-light-for-norwegian/)

[Parkbremse]

Nothing will happen. Denying NAI the approval on grounds of article 17 bis without any legal basis will undermine the credibility of the open skies agreement, which, in case of a sure retaliation of the EU, would eventually deliver a big blow to the US airline industry as the US big 3 are among the main profiteers from said agreement. Not being a fan of Trump, but he and especially his advisors are intelligent enough to see through this. And this is not even accounting for the positives that increased travel will bring to the US economy.

So you and your union friends can cry and moan as much as you like, eventually the new reality will sink in.

Here is an excellent and factual analysis from earlier this year:

http://centreforaviation.com/analysis/norwegian-airs-nai-awaits-final-approval-of-us-rights-credibility-of-us-eu-open-skies-is-at-stake-283001

Some quotes:

"It seems that one of the side effects of US consolidation has been to concentrate considerable political power (in addition to market power) in the hands of the three major legacy airline groups. The US big three have benefited hugely from consolidation and from the US-led open skies movement, which provided the context for the anti-trust immunity of the powerful North Atlantic joint ventures that dominate that market.

Now faced with a new competitor developing a new business model, they have joined forces with their own labour unions and are seeking to shut the door on competition"

and

"In its analysis of 17-Mar-2016, DoT's General Counsel stressed that no public interest analysis was necessary, but "it would be very difficult to construe promoting the competitive position of United States carriers as a compelling reason to outright reject a fit foreign competitor"

Its analysis added that "it would be entirely novel and legally unsustainable" to find that this and the labour issue outweigh all the other public interest factors supporting NAI's application, including:


the availability of low-priced services;
maximum reliance on competitive market forces;
avoiding unreasonable industry concentration;
freedom to offer prices corresponding to demand;
elimination of operational and marketing restrictions;
opportunities for foreign carrier services in exchange for comparable rights and
action consistent with international agreements
"

Says it all really...

[JaxofMarlow]

Parkbremse. "So you and your union friends can cry and moan as much as you like,"

Nothing like nailing your colours to the mast.

And, by the way, "Trump and his advisors are intelligent enough to." This is the man who does not think that global warming is man made and has appointed an environment secretary who is best friends with the fossil fuel industry.

[Parkbremse]

Scaremongering. And that ad nauseam repeated "flags of convenience " argument is pathetic, if it were true than no carrier with an Irish AOC and fully compliant to the regulations of the IAA could fly to the US :ugh:

The US Big 3 control 38% of NAT Traffic, Norwegian, although growing rapidly, has just 3% of ASK and on a lot of their routes, they don't even have an American competitor. NAIs narrowbody ops out of Ireland to the east coast will be completely new, as there is no US competition at all for these kind of flights. That Norwegian is singled out as the devil in person which will destroy the complete US Airline Industry with the over and over repeated half-truths or simply false statements is not only totally crap and unfounded, it shows that the whole argument against them is agenda driven (protectionist and anti competitive) and not based on the facts at hand. And the facts show clearly that not only the Norwegian operation is legit, but also that the competition from Norwegian has a minuscule impact on the US big 3, is creating jobs in the US and has a positive effect on the economy and therefore does not actually warrant such a strong reaction. I refer again to the link I posted earlier of the in my opinion excellent analysis on the subject, if anyone is really interested in a factual discussion.

[Parkbremse]

Is that your way of telling everyone that you either aren't capable or wiling to engage in a facts based non polemic debate? I would love to hear a facts based argument as to why NAI, an EU registered airline which is fully compliant to the rules of an EU member state, should not be awarded US foreign air carrier rights under the US-EU open skies agreement. The DoT would to hear one too, as they and their brigade of lawyers actually spend three years looking for one, without success (big surprise).

[JaxofMarlow]

There would seem to be 42 pages on here for starters and you are pretty much the only one defending. Wonder why.

[Direct Bondi]

The DOT did not issue Norwegian’s US permit for almost three years, while most permits are issued within weeks following application. Ultimately, the DOT may have had no choice in the matter.

Obama has made no secret of his dislike for Putin and last week ordered a full investigation of any Russian influence affecting the election outcome. In a move that would anger Putin, the US wants a submarine base in northern Norway, and:-

“it must be treated politically”

http://www.dagbladet.no/2016/05/28/nyheter/politiske_partier/forsvar/krig_og_konflikter/politikk/44371919/

But what news from my union chums, the ones held in such contempt by the German based Kjos mouthpiece and purveyor of Norwegian snake-oil;

December 8, AFL-CIO union, TTD – Press Release:

http://ttd.org/news-and-media/press-releases/transportation-unions-ready-for-new-congress-trump-administration/

“WASHINGTON, DC — Transportation union leaders across all sectors gathered today for their post-election meeting to assess the landscape in Washington and lay the groundwork for a unified effort under a Trump Administration.

“Our discussion today was focused on boosting investment in transportation and protecting the rights of working people against a torrent of political attacks designed to weaken unions,” said Edward Wytkind, president of the Transportation Trades Department, AFL-CIO(TTD).

“We also vowed to defend against assaults on labor and safety protections in our laws, and work with those who want to change American trade policy so it aligns with the economic interests of American workers.”

The Executive Committee took aim at the wrongheaded decision (http://ttd.org/news-and-media/press-releases/approval-of-norwegian-air-international-permit-a-betrayal-of-u-s-aviation-workers/) by the U.S. Department of Transportation to approve the controversial application of Norwegian Air International (NAI) for a foreign air carrier permit.

“Transportation unions were clear today in their resolve to stop the first-ever job-killing ‘flag-of-convenience’ airline sanctioned by our government from destroying U.S. airline jobs. We will continue urging President Obama to intervene and reverse the NAI decision,” Wytkind said”

[testpanel]

transportation unions were clear today in their resolve to stop the first-ever job-killing ‘flag-of-convenience’ airline sanctioned by our government from destroying U.S. airline jobs.

"Europe" should step up as well, and KILL the US freight-dogs (fedeks&Uhhps) operation in europe, destroying european airline jobs, the dogs even live in europe:yuk:

[NEDude]

Yeah, that FedEx has a base in CGN, and runs internal EU operations using N-registered aircraft, really disgusts me. I am a dual US-EU national, so I have split loyalties. But I know for certain if an EU cargo company set up a US crew base and flew internal US operations using EU registered aircraft, the US unions would be screaming bloody murder.

[testpanel]

if an EU cargo company set up a US crew base and flew internal US operations using EU registered aircraft, the US unions would be screaming bloody murder.

"we" are simply not allowed to.

When we (europe) land in de USofA we can fly to another US base but we CANNOT take extra freight from "B" to take to "C"...(not 1 kg..)..:mad:

[captplaystation]

Never thought I would admit to having something to learn from the Americans, but, it seems we do. . . . . .

[g-code]

Yeah, that FedEx has a base in CGN, and runs internal EU operations using N-registered aircraft, really disgusts me. I am a dual US-EU national, so I have split loyalties. But I know for certain if an EU cargo company set up a US crew base and flew internal US operations using EU registered aircraft, the US unions would be screaming bloody murder.

The EU isn't a single country and FedEx isn't doing it with crew operating as contractors under a rediculous training bond and disgustingly low pay and work rules either.

The EU and US carriers both have 5th freedom rights so if any carrier wanted to open a US base with European crew they are more than welcome to fly to Canada, Mexico, any other nearby country.....just like FedEx does.

The argument from us isn't over those rights. It's over NAIs flag of convenience model and in regards to flight crew.

2nd year FedEx FO pay and benefits blowNorwegian CAPTAIN pay out of the water. So I don't know why you would bemoan a company that keeps flying "in house" and pays pilots exceedingly well compared to almost every other company on the planet. Instead come negotiation time I would take their contract and slide it across the table.

[A and C]

You seem to have a lot invested in this thread and this begs the Question why ?

Have you worked for a part of the Norwegian group ?

Did they ask you to leave ?

As I said on a previous post not a lot of dogs hang on to a bone this long and you motivation interests me as much as the content of your posts.

[speed_alive_rotate]

I too would like to know the answers to A and C 's questions Direct Bondi. And before you get defensive I am not disagreeing with you , I would just like to know why you have such an invested interest....
There are other LCC within the EU who have much much worse pay conditions and some make there pilots pay for their own uniform- so why not take a shot in that direction also?????

Regards,
SAR

[Direct Bondi]

Not much of a defense for the Norwegian regime A and C.

With your 5,885 posts it is apparent you spend a vast amount of time on this website. It is neither my concern nor interest why. Similarly, the causes I choose to pursue, or not to pursue, is none of your concern.

Unfortunately, the Norwegian bone has a never ending supply of meat. Reports of Norwegian’s operational incongruities and “labor relations” issues appear regularly.

Readers can decide for themselves any relevance and value from my contributions to this thread.

[directmisbi]

Regarding pay on Norwegian LH. Lets say you started out as an FO 3 years ago on LH. You just upgraded to captain on the osm contract year 1. Monthly pay :
Basic 8125 £
Per diems 913 £
Lets assume 89 hrs for the month and 4 unused standby duties : 4091 £
Total : 13129 £ plus pension comes in at 5 percent.
Assume a 4th year FO who failed his upgrade and on a OSM contract : Monthly pay 7852 £ plus 5 percent pension..
On initiating contract you provide a bank guarantee(ie no money up front) and are free to walk after 3 years
Im no Kjos apologetics, but is this really such a bad pay that the airline should be denied a permit?

[chocolateracer]

No it is not. I have heard that their finance rates are much much higher than the average because they haven't been around for long enough in LH to warrant decent rates. This plus the rising oil price and weakening economy should put a stop to them.

Excellent news all round.

[SK1]

Regarding pay on Norwegian LH. Lets say you started out as an FO 3 years ago on LH. You just upgraded to captain on the osm contract year 1. Monthly pay :
Basic 8125 £
Per diems 913 £
Lets assume 89 hrs for the month and 4 unused standby duties : 4091 £
Total : 13129 £ plus pension comes in at 5 percent.
Assume a 4th year FO who failed his upgrade and on a OSM contract : Monthly pay 7852 £ plus 5 percent pension..
On initiating contract you provide a bank guarantee(ie no money up front) and are free to walk after 3 years
Im no Kjos apologetics, but is this really such a bad pay that the airline should be denied a permit?

5% pension...?? I don't think any pension is included in the package.

[CaptainProp]

There are other LCC within the EU who have much much worse pay conditions and some make there pilots pay for their own uniform- so why not take a shot in that direction also?????

Very true! Agreeing that NLH pay is not the best around, there are some really atrocious contracts around that deserves much more attention, for all the wrong reasons, than the NLH contract. Wow, SmartLynx, Avion, Wizz, Germania, Small Planet etc etc etc.

[Fletch]

Lets assume 89 hrs for the month and 4 unused standby duties : 4091 £
Total : 13129 £ plus pension comes in at 5 percent.

So a year 1 Captain (UK based) grosses over £13k a month?
How do you get to £4091 for flying pay?

Genuinely interested. Cheers

[R T Jones]

I am thinking that per diem is the figure for the month as opposed to day. That £913 would be your flight pay for the month.

[PTU738]

I got the contract from Rishworth and there is no flightpay at all.
Just basic plus per diem.
Basic minus 35% tax, that is what you get.
Very curious how you get to £4000 flightpay?

Cheers

[Parkbremse]

He talks about the OSM Contract which you will get after 3 years. So year 1 OSM will be year 4 in total

[SK1]

Does the contract change and improve after 3 years then?

[Parkbremse]

Yes your contract will change , you will get a permanent contract with OSM after three years with improved conditions.

[Fletch]

So on promotion to Captain, in their fourth year of "service", a UK based line skipper on an OSM contract based at LGW can gross £13k in an average month? Is that right? Thanks

[directmisbi]

That is correct.

[Fletch]

That's a lot more than I thought. Many thanks for the information:ok:

[Tricia Takanawa]

How are the rosters at NLH at the moment?

And if one joined as a "relief capt", how long is the current time to become a proper captain? And what is the selection criteria? Seniority?

Thanks

[Dualbleed]

I am working as captain on the 787, and a little curious of this Norwegian adventure for my last couple of years. Currently I am on a final salary pension scheme and wonder what Norwegian could offer.? Obviously anything less than 28% in a purchase scheme would be very bad and a joke.

[The Crew]

BA ( et al) final salary pesioned pilots were the scurge of the industry for years. Thankfully, retirement ages have increased and therefore the market saturation of type rated experienced guys willing to take a pittance for their endeavours has shrunk.
Contract jobs are a plenty now, and rates have increased.

Why would Norwegian employ a pilot on full pension knowing that they will run for cover if things are not to their liking ?
The contracts are 3 years btw .

[A and C]

Thank you for your reply,

I don't think I have ever before had such an evasive answer on these forums.

It begs the question why ?

[Bus Driver Man]

-So what are the terms and conditions for the OSM contract for FO, Relief Captain and Captain?
Any annual salary increase included?

-Rishworth is announcing AMS and CDG as bases starting next year. Any info regarding taxes? UK tax since it's a UK contract? Or tax in Netherlands or France?

[SK1]

I'm also confused by the two different contracts on offer.
Are you guaranteed to be moved to the (better?) OSM contract after spending 3 years on a Rishworth one?

[Direct Bondi]

Yes, you may be moved to a different contract:

“Pilots are threatened with losing their jobs if they did not move to OSM”

http://www.dn.no/nyheter/naringsliv/2015/03/04/0647/parat-piloter-forskt-rekruttert-til-osm

“In order to force pilots into signing the new contracts, the company introduced aggressive tactics by establishing a deadline at short notice”

“Pilots received written threats of contract termination if they chose not to comply with the imposed deadline”

http://www.sepla.es/en/sala-de-prensa/sepla-noticias/irregularidades-en-la-contratacion-de-los-pilotos-que-operan-para-norwegian-en-espana/

[Bus Driver Man]

Why is there a reluctance to accept the OSM contract, if it's supposed to have better conditions than the initial 3 year contract? What's the catch?
I know that the OSM contract looks suspicious, since you're not directly employed by Norwegian, but so is the temporary 3 year contract. So what are the terms and conditions for the OSM contract?

[directmisbi]

There is no "catch" on LH, and no shortage of quality applicants either. On SH there are still several issues to be resolved with OSM, not so much about the pay but more to the administration side of things, but that is another matter.
The links provided by direct bondi refers to SH and are outdated. As to why he keeps putting up smoke and mirrors for his colleagues is beyond me. This forum is about helping/informing each other and possibly sharing some gossip..

[flywithme007]

I have a Screening with Norwegian... >>US pilot, any info

[ExDubai]

Even, R J co-pilots, first year, now get more than $ 60,000 + $ 35,000 bonuses !

Which US regional pays their co pilots 60K plus bonus?

Endeavor pays 60K incl. bonus..

[trancada]

Nowergian plans to expand to Singapore

Flygtorget » Flygnyheter » Flygnyheter » Norwegian planerar linje till Singapore (http://www.flygtorget.se/Aktuellt/Artikel/?ID=11895&KatID=1)

[Dualbleed]

Of course Norwegian will not be far behind matching or even surpassing these t&c.

[Ascoteer]

Any current UK Norwegian LH guys on here that can answer questions about take-home pay, rosters, allowances etc?

Everyone else, don't worry, I have my eyes open!

[Yorkshire_Pudding]

Lets say you started out as an FO 3 years ago on LH. You just upgraded to captain on the osm contract year 1. Monthly pay :
Basic 8125 £
Per diems 913 £
Lets assume 89 hrs for the month and 4 unused standby duties : 4091 £
Total : 13129 £ plus pension comes in at 5 percent.
Assume a 4th year FO who failed his upgrade and on a OSM contract : Monthly pay 7852 £ plus 5 percent pension..

On the OSM, are you actually an employee of OSM or a contractor and liable for employee AND employer taxes, NI, etc. etc. Is it a permanent employment contract in the UK?

And whats the deal for the first three years with NLH. Are there any up to date figures around?

[Direct Bondi]

Is it a permanent employment contract in the UK?
The word ‘permanent’ cannot be associated with Norwegian’s atypical labor scheme.

The 3-year fixed term contract is for employment with an agency. Pilots are required to sign a clause that “no employment relationship exists with Norwegian”. Income tax and social contributions are deducted by the agency. Norwegian rents the crew member(s) from the respective agency and may cancel the individual Service Provider Agreement (rental agreement) of the crew member without notice, reason or recourse. A shelf-stacker directly employed by supermarket has more labor rights and labor principles than a 787 agency pilot flying for Norwegian.

Following the recent DOT decision Norwegian may believe its ‘flag of convenience’ scheme has succeeded and opposition crushed. A December 20 letter to President elect Trump by over 100 Members of Congress suggests otherwise:

“We strongly urge you to correct the Department’s mistake. We urge you, on Day One of your presidency, to start the process necessary to revoke or suspend Norwegian’s permit”

The letter may be downloaded and read in full via the following link:

http://democrats.transportation.house.gov/news/letters/over-100-members-congress-urge-president-elect-trump-protect-american-jobs-and-security

ALPA is “considering all action” to reverse the DOT decision. The Association of Flight Attendants, an affiliate of the AFL-CIO federation of unions, has already acted by distributing leaflets last week at several major US airports. The leaflet has the heading “Who is crewing your plane?”

https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/afacwa/pages/530/attachments/original/1482345812/0943N.pdf?1482345812

http://www.afacwa.org/flight_attendants_urge_the_flying_public_to_deny_norwegian_a ir_international

Norwegian’s US based cabin crew, after winning a legal ruling that Norwegian must recognize and negotiate with their union, appear to have encountered resistance:

“However, the Company wanting to “conduct an election” to select representatives to “be the liaison between management and cabin crew” bypasses the Union’s status as the bargaining representative of the cabin crew”

http://cabinassociation.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/NCCA-11.08.2016.pdf

The first 100 days of the Trump administration will be interesting for the smiling rock ape regime.

[Iver]

Will these pilots be paid BA-level wages?

http://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news/51897-iag-to-enter-longhaul-lcc-market-in-late-2q17

[Popgun]

Very illuminating. Thanks for posting DB.

While I'm no Trump supporter, here's hoping he follows through on his campaign rhetoric to protect American jobs from sneaky, dishonest flags of convenience such as this sham of a 'Norwegian' company.

Also great to see there is such widespread support for stopping it in Congress.

[Wireless]

Given things race down in this industry, not up Iver I suspect it's a case of will BA ever try to pay Norweigian wages?

[ExDubai]

Will these pilots be paid BA-level wages?

IAG to enter longhaul LCC market in late 2Q17 - ch-aviation.com (http://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news/51897-iag-to-enter-longhaul-lcc-market-in-late-2q17)
Sure, they will get the full package.... :cool:

[pinasse33]

Hi, everybody,
Anyone could be send me his previous or current roster on PM please of LGW base to see how does Norwegian work for.
i'm wondering what roster base they used, i hears of 5 up to 8 days ON before to get 4 days off next.

[marvelman]

JAN 13, 2017

Unions representing 100,000 aviation workers have asked a federal appeals court to overturn the Transportation Department’s decision allowing Norwegian Air International to fly to and from the U.S.

The case filed Thursday at the U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia, which hears appeals of administration decisions, means the long-running dispute with Norwegian will continue a while longer.



---- U.S. Aviation Workers Sue Obama Administration to Reverse DOT’s Norwegian Air International Decision

JAN 12, 2017

WASHINGTON––Organizations representing more than 100,000 aviation workers filed a petition today in the U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit as a first step in a drive to overturn the Obama administration’s decision to permit Norwegian Air International (NAI) to fly to and from the United States under a business plan that runs counter to U.S. Open Skies agreements and threatens U.S. jobs.

Filed today by the AFL-CIO, the Air Line Pilots Association, Int’l, the Association of Flight Attendants—CWA, the Transportation Trades Department, AFL-CIO, and the Allied Pilots Association, the petition calls for review of the U.S. Department of Transportation’s (DOT) determination late last year that approving the NAI foreign air carrier permit was consistent with U.S. aviation statutes and the U.S.-EU Air Transport Agreement (ATA).

U.S. aviation workers and others have been clear that the NAI application and business model, which is designed to undermine labor standards, run counter to the ATA and that the airline should not gain the access to U.S. markets that the agreement provides. While today’s legal action is focused on the Obama administration’s failure to uphold the labor provisions of the ATA, U.S. aviation workers pledge to continue the fight against NAI and its business model until the decision is reversed or the business model is changed.

“The Administration’s decision to allow Norwegian Air International to operate in the U.S. is disappointing and undercuts key protections in place for working men and women,” said AFL-CIO President Richard Trumka. “The labor movement is united and ready to fight to overturn the decision, as evidenced by today’s action.”

“U.S. aviation workers need a U.S. administration that enforces our nation’s trade agreements and safeguards fair competition for U.S. companies and their workers,” said Capt. Tim Canoll, president of the Air Line Pilots Association, Int’l. “Since the Obama administration didn’t enforce the U.S.-EU agreement, working men and women in the aviation industry have no choice but to take legal action to safeguard our jobs against unfair foreign competition.”

"The DOT NAI decision is green lighting outsourcing of aviation jobs to nations with the lowest labor standards. This is a violation of a contract with American workers and the millions of travelers, communities and businesses who depend upon a strong U.S. aviation industry," said Sara Nelson, president of the Association of Flight Attendants-CWA. "We will hold the Obama administration accountable and enforce the agreement that is predicated on maintaining good jobs in the United States and the European Union. Yes, we can have vigorous competition and good jobs!"

“The DOT’s wrongheaded decision on NAI’s permit application rewards a rogue airline for bad behavior,” said Edward Wytkind, president of the Transportation Trades Department, AFL-CIO. “When our government permits foreign airlines to game our trade rules and refuses to enforce worker protections it negotiates into trade agreements, not only are good jobs and a vital industry at risk, but the public interest is in harm’s way.”

“Norwegian Air International is a blatant flag-of-convenience scheme that, left unchecked, will destroy a huge number of middle-class American jobs,” said Capt. Dan Carey, president of the Allied Pilots Association. “While we are disappointed that the Obama administration has thus far not enforced the U.S.-EU agreement, we are optimistic that we will succeed in protecting the interests of the many hard-working men and women who keep our nation’s airlines flying.”



JANUARY 13, 2017

The Southwest Airlines Pilots´ Association (SWAPA) is partnering with the NetJets Association of Shared Aircraft Pilots (NJASAP) to urge President-elect Trump to reverse the decision to grant Norwegian Air International a foreign carrier permit, the Southwest association said.

The two groups will meet in the nation´s capital for a rally for US aviation jobs on January 24.

In the final days of his administration, President Obama granted Norwegian Air International (NAI) a foreign carrier permit. This permit allows for Norwegian to establish an Irish subsidiary in order to take advantage of Ireland´s labor, tax, and social laws.

[smith]

I never heard the yanks trying to block Norwegian buying 200 737's and 100 787's.

[marvelman]

First, the correct official 787 Norwegian / Boeing order is:

Total 22, 3 Delivered / 19 Unfilled.

Second, Not any more financing / loan guarantees to Norwegian,
to buy Boeings, thru Ex-Im Bank USA,
bankrolled by US Taxpayers and Guaranteed by the US Government.
This is Over.

Furthermore, Wow Air, already started a few days ago to sell $ 69 USD Fares
to the US West Coast, for flights starting from January 15.

Wow Air --- Congratulations !

From Los Angeles and San Francisco to
Stockholm; Copenhagen; Bristol, England; and Edinburgh, Scotland.

And, will add two new U.S. destinations later this year, adding service to Miami in April, and to Pittsburgh in June.


"Other airlines have been talking about offering these fares," ----- "But Iceland's WOW air is actually doing it."

WOW's just-announced $69 fares came after Norwegian Air officials spent much of the holiday season on a European media blitz promising $69 fares between Europe and the United States " sometime in 2017 ".

WOW Air's California routes are serviced by three new Airbus A330 aircrafts,

​----- Fantastic !

.

[captplaystation]

Ah, but the passengers will prefer to fly transatlantic from EDI with a 737 MAX. . . . . won't they ? :rolleyes: that well known spacious wide-bodied long haul aircraft ( &, I won't mention the poor Serfs in the front )

[Direct Bondi]

I never heard the yanks trying to block Norwegian buying 200 737's and 100 787's.
Notwithstanding the incorrect order number, the entire Boeing work force and their IAM union do not support Norwegian’s flag of convenience;

“The Machinists Union applauds yesterday’s decision by the DOT to deny Norwegian Air UK (NA UK) a foreign air carrier permit exemption”

https://www.goiam.org/news/territories/transportation/nais-sister-airline-norwegian-air-uk-denied-foreign-air-carrier-exemption/ (https://www.goiam.org/news/territories/transportation/nais-sister-airline-norwegian-air-uk-denied-foreign-air-carrier-exemption/)

“Norwegian Air International’s business model exploits the “flags of convenience” model used in the maritime industry. The “flags of convenience” model allows an airline, for example, based in Norway to create a subsidiary on paper only in another country to take advantage of lax labor, safety and tax regulations and circumvent such laws in its home country”

Has anyone seen an Ireland employment contract applicable to crew flying for “Ireland based” Norwegian Air International?

[back to Boeing]

Notwithstanding their union's objection not one of the mechanics will refuse to work on an aircraft destined for Norwegian.

[maxpeck]

Are they trying to buy more 737s and 787s?

[marvelman]

.


--- 787 --- Boeing / Norwegian --- Total Order 22. --- ONLY 3 Actual Boeing Deliveries, to NLH.


The other 8 in NLH, and, 1 in NUK , are lsf -- From:

DP Aircraft, AerCap, MG Aviation, CIT.



--- 737 --- Boeing / NAS --- LAST Delivery Aug 2015.

Boeing / NAI --- Sep 2015 - Dec 2016 : 20 Boeing Deliveries to NAI.


The other 27 in NAI, are lsf --- From:

AerCap, BBAM, Doric, JSA, Amentum Aircraft Leasing, SKK Corp., SMBC, Macquarie Air Finance, AWAS, CIT.


.

[JW411]

I reckon that DB and MM would make a wonderful pair of bookends.

[Direct Bondi]

Orient Ship Management is seeking to employ US based pilots to be rented out to Norwegian, what do you “reckon” to the statement from OSM to the Norwegian Cabin Crew Association, NCCA, that;

“Under the governing laws of the RLA, until there is a collective bargaining agreement (CBA) in place with the NCCA, there is no obligation to maintain the status quo which means the employer may unilaterally change policies and introduce or expand programs, or make other changes to the status quo terms and conditions of employees”

Perhaps your reckoning is limited to superficial remarks of no consequence or value.

[CaptainProp]

So when wow air is flying low cost, long haul flights in / out of the US its ok, but when Norwegian does it's not? Have you seen the wow contracts?!

CP

[ExDubai]

First, the correct official 787 Norwegian / Boeing order is:

Total 22, 3 Delivered / 19 Unfilled.

Second, Not any more financing / loan guarantees to Norwegian,
to buy Boeings, thru Ex-Im Bank USA,
bankrolled by US Taxpayers and Guaranteed by the US Government.
This is Over.

Furthermore, Wow Air, already started a few days ago to sell $ 69 USD Fares
to the US West Coast, for flights starting from January 15.

Wow Air --- Congratulations !

From Los Angeles and San Francisco to
Stockholm; Copenhagen; Bristol, England; and Edinburgh, Scotland.

And, will add two new U.S. destinations later this year, adding service to Miami in April, and to Pittsburgh in June.


"Other airlines have been talking about offering these fares," ----- "But Iceland's WOW air is actually doing it."

WOW's just-announced $69 fares came after Norwegian Air officials spent much of the holiday season on a European media blitz promising $69 fares between Europe and the United States " sometime in 2017 ".

WOW Air's California routes are serviced by three new Airbus A330 aircrafts,

​----- Fantastic !

.

Did you ever had a look to the WOW T&C's?

[Gulf Julliet Papa]

Did you ever had a look to the WOW T&C's?

Also note there has been no mention of Vuelings T&Cs yet no doubt they will be given DoT approval without any comment from the American unions

[marvelman]

.

--- If you think education is expensive, try ignorance. These words have been attributed to Derek Bok who was a President of Harvard University ...


.

[NEDude]

I have to ask, why the hostility towards Norwegian while giving a free pass to all the other airlines out there who pay less (Eurowings for example) or who make use of contract pilots (WOW Air, Brussels Airlines, and Aegean for example)? Just curious what you (Direct Bondi and marvelman) see is vastly different between Norwegian and the others.

[Enzo999]

I have to ask, why the hostility towards Norwegian while giving a free pass to all the other airlines out there who pay less (Eurowings for example) or who make use of contract pilots (WOW Air, Brussels Airlines, and Aegean for example)? Just curious what you (Direct Bondi and marvelman) see is vastly different between Norwegian and the others.

I would imagine it's because of their size and ambition! While other companies might offer slightly worse Terms (although I fail to see how) no other company has 130 operational aircraft with 260 others on order. They have somehow through what can only be described as "magic" built a massive company that many see as a threat to the whole insustry, they are at the forefront of the race to the bottom.

Also many people myself included feeling very uneasy about the "magic" that has got them this far, a company that has lost hundreds of millions of dollars through the years finds the money to buy 400 aircraft, how does that work. The cost of these aircraft seem to be instantly written off, I keep reading they are able to offer tickets to NY for 56 pounds because of the fuel efficient 787, but fuel is cheap and the 787 is extremely expensive, BA and Virgin have 787s but they are not flying people for 56 quid, I wonder why? Also last time I checked Norway were not in EU so how have they managed to worm their way in to the open sky agreement, I will tell you how by being under hand and devious, Irish airline my arse hole!!

All this in no way excuses any of the other bottom feeding airlines in the world taking advantage of its staff or bending employment rules just to make a bit more money, it's just Norwegian are the current kings of it taking over from Ryan a feat many thought impossible.

[NEDude]

You are aware that Norway (and Iceland) are covered under the 2012 amendment to the Open Skies treaty correct? Norway and Iceland are also part of the EEA and Schengen agreement, so their inclusion into another EU associated treaty is not all that far fetched.

If you have not seen worse terms and conditions, you clearly have not been looking very hard. There are FAR, FAR worse terms and conditions available out there, even in Europe.

[Enzo999]

You are aware that Norway (and Iceland) are covered under the 2012 amendment to the Open Skies treaty correct? Norway and Iceland are also part of the EEA and Schengen agreement, so their inclusion into another EU associated treaty is not all that far fetched.

If you have not seen worse terms and conditions, you clearly have not been looking very hard. There are FAR, FAR worse terms and conditions available out there, even in Europe.

Oh right, then why all the EI regs? And why have they spent the last 3 years convincing US authroities they are an "Irish" company?

Anyway you seem to be missing my point, yes there may well be worse terms around but non on the scale of Norwegian. If you are happy with what's on offer and can't get in to an airline without stumping up 30 grand then go for it, I just hope your willingness to accept **** does no affect my employer in the future.

[FlipFlapFlop]

Well said Enzo. There are worse out there (pay) but nothing like the scale of Norwegian. If by cheating their way into a market that hurts those that play by the rules then they deserve nothing but derision and those pilots that defend them should be ashamed of themselves.

[NEDude]

I am just curious why it is okay for some airline companies to use contract pilots, to pay less, and have multiple AOCs in various countries.

For example Thomas Cook has AOCs in the UK, Belgium, Denmark and Germany (branded as Condor). Their combined fleet is 94 aircraft. They also regularly use sub-contracted airlines who employ contract pilots which pay far worse than Norwegian. In the summer season 2016 they used Avion Express which employed pilots on short term contracts. All of the Thomas Cook AOCs have U.S. DOT Authority and have it with zero controversy. Why is that? Is it because they have less than 100 airplanes? Is that the magic number?

WOW Air also employs pilots on short term contracts and have used, and continue to use, sub-contracted airlines to operate some of their routes. Why has that not caused controversy? Is it because they are too small?

So why the past three years fighting with U.S. authorities? Perhaps it is because every other airline that uses multiple AOCs in multiple countries, sub-contracted employees, has lower pay rates, and is nearly the same size, have received the U.S. DOT authorisation with ZERO issues.

As for the EI regs and using Ireland to set up an AOC? Well it is not because they need it for access to the U.S. as Norway, and the NAS AOC are covered under the Open Skies Treaty (In case you haven't noticed Norwegian has been operating into the States for several years now - certainly they did not need the NAI certificate to do that). They also did not need it for the outsourced contracts, or for having a base in BKK, as that has also been done under the NAS AOC, which is based in Norway. So they did not need the NAI certificate for access to the States, and they did not need it for outsourcing contract employees, which have been the two main arguments ALPA has been using in their 'Deny NAI' campaign. So their must be another reason for setting up the NAI certificate. I wonder what that could be...

[Parkbremse]

Oh right, then why all the EI regs? And why have they spent the last 3 years convincing US authroities they are an "Irish" company?

Anyway you seem to be missing my point, yes there may well be worse terms around but non on the scale of Norwegian. If you are happy with what's on offer and can't get in to an airline without stumping up 30 grand then go for it, I just hope your willingness to accept **** does no affect my employer in the future.

I certainly didn't pay 30grand and I'm pretty happy earning a 100k€+ as a relief captain (senior fo), which is next to impossible for me to earn as a first officer in germany. Considering that Eurowings pays an A330 captain 85k€ I do think its quite ok...

[Enzo999]

I certainly didn't pay 30grand and I'm pretty happy earning a 100k€+ as a relief captain (senior fo), which is next to impossible for me to earn as a first officer in germany. Considering that Eurowings pays an A330 captain 85k€ I do think its quite ok...

Sounds good, what's the pension like at Rishworth?

[Parkbremse]

Sounds good, what's the pension like at Rishworth?

No pension but i guess you know that already. Never said everything was perfect and there is no room for improvement. Then again, the longhaul division exists for four years. Taking this timeframe, a lot has already improved, step by step and how anyone can expects that a company operating for four years has contracts similar to legacy carriers or airlines operating for 20 years+ is beyond me. Didn't have a pension at my previous airline either.

[3Greens]

It's people that think that kind of remuneration is ok that are what's wrong with the industry today.
What's the pension?
What's the lol?
What's the sick pay?
What's the increments every year?
How much did you pay to get in?
If there's no pension then what the hell are you going to live on when you retire?

[3Greens]

100k€ isn't far off what BA pay new first officers on LH. Except you also get pension, lol, IHP, sick pay, increments every year.
Oh, and they pay for your type rating too.

[JaxofMarlow]

and you actually work for BA as opposed to an agency.

[Blackcoffeenosugar]

Norwegian was founded on the remains of Busy Bee in 1992. B737 operations commenced in 2002 and B787 operations.... well that is a question of definition, but generally speaking four years ago. The pilot union had a scope clause, but unions are bound by legislative borders and as there were no bases within "reach" of the union. Therefore they were bypassed. NAS had an AOC called Norwegian Longhaul (NLH) which in turn received an exemption from the CAA in Norway in order to operate EI registered ac until Norwegian could set up an Irish AOC. This allowed NAS to bypass labour laws in Norway. As most know it took a long time for the Irish AOC, NAI to get DOT approval.
Meanwhile NLH received an extended period of exemption. When that finally expired NAS transferred most all of short haul to a new daughter company with a new AOC (NAN) and brought Longhaul on to the NAS AOC and received a exemption for NAS to pick up where NLH were "stopped".
Then new crewing companies were created to which the pilots were divided. Fortunately the person responsible for the CAA exemption accepted a position with one of the new subsidiaries in NAS and left the CAA.
And the saga continues-
I think we can agree that the top management in NAS is extremely clever and visionary. Critics say that they do not play by the rules, but I strongly disagree. They make their own rules.
They just re-write, re-route, adapt and prevail. Like it or not, there is nothing anyone can do to stop them. So join up or move along 😉👍🏻

[NEDude]

If there's no pension then what the hell are you going to live on when you retire?

Ummm, good question. I never thought of that before. Wow, I sure wish there was a way I could save some money for my retirement. Maybe that will be my new business and I can leave aviation. I am going to start a company where people can invest and manage their money for the long term. Very surprised nobody has ever thought of doing that before...

[macdo]

NEDUDE said
'For example Thomas Cook has AOCs in the UK, Belgium, Denmark and Germany (branded as Condor). Their combined fleet is 94 aircraft. They also regularly use sub-contracted airlines who employ contract pilots which pay far worse than Norwegian. In the summer season 2016 they used Avion Express which employed pilots on short term contracts. All of the Thomas Cook AOCs have U.S. DOT Authority and have it with zero controversy. Why is that? Is it because they have less than 100 airplanes? Is that the magic number?'

Firstly, the German, UK, Scandi and Belgium AOC airlines are all long established as independent entities and despite efforts at integration, still operate as such. There are some t&c differences, but largely a TC pilot is well looked after.
What is not OK and causes much concern among the tc workforce, is the increased use of 3rd. party operators, such as SmartLynx, Avion Ex and Air Tanker. Expansion of this type of operation is resisted by BALPA, sometimes with success, sometimes less so.
However, since the 3rd party penetration into our company has been resisted, we have been able increase our own workforce and increase command oppotunities for people on proper contracts with good t&c's.
It's always going to be a fight though, because I'm sure that our management look enviously over to the likes of Norwegian and wish they could treat us the same way.

[macdo]

BLACKCOFFEESUGAR said
'Like it or not, there is nothing anyone can do to stop them. So join up or move along 😉👍🏻'

Assuming that this comment is not tongue in cheek, yes, there is something you can do about it. Get Unionised and grow a pair!

[Direct Bondi]

I think we can agree that the top management in NAS is extremely clever and visionary. Critics say that they do not play by the rules, but I strongly disagree.
I think we can agree they are incompetent, short-sighted and break the rules:

After thousands of passengers are left stranded, distraught and their travel plans in ruins:

“Norwegian Air’s boss apologizes for chaos”

http://www.newsinenglish.no/2016/07/06/norwegian-airs-boss-apologizes/ (http://www.newsinenglish.no/2016/07/06/norwegian-airs-boss-apologizes/)

Norwegian’s staff begin to reject the vision of an airline “unemployment” labor model:

“We will not accept to negotiate with NAR ES, a staffing company, since this is not consistent with the [Spanish] labor laws, says USO [Union Sindical Obrera] representative Ernesto Inglesis”

“Spanish unions threaten Norwegian strike” – DN News 10/1/17

http://www.dn.no/nyheter/2017/01/10/0832/Arbeidsliv/spansk-fagforening-truer-norwegian-med-streik (http://www.dn.no/nyheter/2017/01/10/0832/Arbeidsliv/spansk-fagforening-truer-norwegian-med-streik)

A Norwegian 787 flies across the Atlantic illegally without the required number of cabin crew. Norwegian’s DFO informs a Norway newspaper that the number of flight attendants is based on the number of passengers - the rules state number of seats:

http://www.dagbladet.no/nyheter/norwegian-fly-underbemannet-over-atlanteren---uakseptabelt-sier-luftfartstilsynet/60837640 (http://www.dagbladet.no/nyheter/norwegian-fly-underbemannet-over-atlanteren---uakseptabelt-sier-luftfartstilsynet/60837640)

Labor relations forecast: Spanish uprising

[FlipFlapFlop]

BLACKCOFFEESUGAR said
'Like it or not, there is nothing anyone can do to stop them. So join up or move along ������'

Good god. What a view. You have a company whose strategy is clearly to put others out of business so they can reap the rewards and that is OK ! How the hell do Norwegian afford all these shiny new jets ? They pay their pilots a fair amount of dosh even if it is through an agency so these pilots have no labour protection. They use the same airports so have the same landing costs. They use the same fuel efficient aircraft as BA and Virgin. So how do they undercut the pricing so much ? And why ? Answer is they make huge great losses and someone somewhere as bank rolling this. And the only reason for such a strategy is ultimate market domination.

Pilots on here defending Norwegian simply are supporting the devil from within. It beggars belief that ostensible intelligent people cannot see what the end game is and what that would mean for them. Norwegian have taken on eJ and Ryanair on short haul and are not winning. These two know how to play the game and may have pushed Terms downwards to cut costs. But at least they play by the rules. Now they are turning to long haul and if they succeed the price will be paid by Ba and Virgin and the stupid crews who have helped them do it.

Question...... where has Norwegian got all the money from to do this ????

[Enzo999]

BLACKCOFFEESUGAR said
'Like it or not, there is nothing anyone can do to stop them. So join up or move along ������'

Good god. What a view. You have a company whose strategy is clearly to put others out of business so they can reap the rewards and that is OK ! How the hell do Norwegian afford all these shiny new jets ? They pay their pilots a fair amount of dosh even if it is through an agency so these pilots have no labour protection. They use the same airports so have the same landing costs. They use the same fuel efficient aircraft as BA and Virgin. So how do they undercut the pricing so much ? And why ? Answer is they make huge great losses and someone somewhere as bank rolling this. And the only reason for such a strategy is ultimate market domination.

Pilots on here defending Norwegian simply are supporting the devil from within. It beggars belief that ostensible intelligent people cannot see what the end game is and what that would mean for them. Norwegian have taken on eJ and Ryanair on short haul and are not winning. These two know how to play the game and may have pushed Terms downwards to cut costs. But at least they play by the rules. Now they are turning to long haul and if they succeed the price will be paid by Ba and Virgin and the stupid crews who have helped them do it.

Question...... where has Norwegian got all the money from to do this ????

Absolutely!! Good post!

[Ryanairpilot]

[QUOTE]These two know how to play the game and may have pushed Terms downwards to cut costs. But at least they play by the rules./QUOTE]

Hahahahahahahaha....jesus.....hahahahahaha......call an ambulance....... hahahaha......completely split.......waist to armpit..........hahahahaha

[Enzo999]

[QUOTE]These two know how to play the game and may have pushed Terms downwards to cut costs. But at least they play by the rules./QUOTE]

Hahahahahahahaha....jesus.....hahahahahaha......call an ambulance....... hahahaha......completely split.......waist to armpit..........hahahahaha

I think the reference to "playing by the rules" refrers to the fact Ryan has always made money, it started small and built a very successful business built on income and profit, it has never racked up multi million pound loses year in year out with the sole aim of undercutting and bankrupting its competitors! I am no fan fan of Ryan Air and they defiantly don't play by anyone's rules when it comes to employee rights but it does not survive on a "magic money mountain"!

[FlipFlapFlop]

OK Ryanairpilot. Glad you find me such a joke. Enzo is right. I was particularly referring to laws relating to funding and subsidising of airlines. I am acutely aware that the other two will do what they can to gain cost advantage. Any cash mountain held by Ryanair has been gained through trading. Norwegians certainly has not.

[slam_dunk]

Guys/girls

I'm interested in the work schedules they fly at Norwegian. May be it was posted earlier on in the thread? Please point me to that if i overlooked it.

Thanks! Sd

[marvelman]

-----


THE EASY RIDE IS OVER ----

NOT ANY MORE ANY !


Financing / Loan guarantees to Norwegian, to "Buy" Boeings, with Boeing "in the middle" to "Sell",

BUT TO BE Bankrolled by US Taxpayers , Ex-Im Bank USA. and, Guaranteed by the US Government !




In the past, the U.S. Export-Import Bank has supported more than one billion dollars in financing for Norwegian's short-haul and long-haul aircraft. All of Norwegan's B-787s have received U.S. government financing support. In addition to the direct financing cost savings, Ex-Im Bank support allows foreign airlines like Norwegian to purchase new aircraft that are more fuel efficient and attractive to customers, compounding the economic advantage they receive from the U.S. government financing -



In January 2012, Norwegian placed what was then the largest civil aviation order in
European history, including 122 Boeing 737 aircraft (at the time Boeing’s largest ever European deal).

When asked whether Norwegian would have trouble financing this immense purchase,

---- Norwegian’s CEO answered:

“The order is financed through Exim (Export-Import Bank of the United States) and through state guaranteed loans, so I’m NOT worried about that at all.”



In the case of Norwegian, the airline is seeking additional Ex-Im Bank financing while at the same time pursuing efforts to serve the United States via an Irish subsidiary called Norwegian Air International (NAI), which is based on a business model that seeks to avoid tax and employment laws and circumvent international agreements to gain an unfair competitive edge against U.S. airlines and their workers in the global marketplace. -


"The Ex-Im Bank must conduct the economic review Congress requires and ensure that U.S. industry and jobs aren't compromised by its response to financing requests such as this application from Norwegian Air,"


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Weaken / Bust the Unions in your Home Base of Norway, by all means available, and, hire Cheap / Underpaid Non-union employees elsewhere, anywhere.

And, Overwork them, After, they pay Upfront 30 or 40 K for their training cost bond.


OSM itself was established as a spin off OSM maritime, an agency supplying crews to shipping companies.

OSM statement: “International Aviation will go the same way as shipping".

And, not by coincidence, Norwegian's CEO was a maritime lawyer, for twenty years.


--------

[Parkbremse]

[quote=Ryanairpilot;9643886]

I think the reference to "playing by the rules" refrers to the fact Ryan has always made money, it started small and built a very successful business built on income and profit, it has never racked up multi million pound loses year in year out with the sole aim of undercutting and bankrupting its competitors! I am no fan fan of Ryan Air and they defiantly don't play by anyone's rules when it comes to employee rights but it does not survive on a "magic money mountain"!

How about you go to Norwegians website and download the annual report 2015. Read it. Then read it again. Google the terms you dont know. Then read it again. That should answer your questions...

[JaxofMarlow]

So where has NOK 17,131,000,000 of debt come from ?

[marvelman]

----

----- FINANCE / DEBT :

2015 - 17,131 Million NOK

Estimates in Million NOK - Source : 4-traders - Thomson Reuters

2016 e - 22,016
2017 e - 33,695
2018 e - 43,416
2019 e - 57,611

------


The stock price continues in Steady Persistent Decline.

MINUS - 30 % - From Last April 2016.

MINUS - 11% - From two weeks ago, January 2017

Last April 379 / January 302 / Now 268 again .



Norwegian faces MANY challenges,

Overcapacity - Overexpansion / Increased Volatility / Rising Debt / Rising Financing Interest Rates / Rising Intense Competition / Escalating Fare Wars / Rising Fuel Prices / Underpaid - Overworked Labor Force.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Just a few remarks of today :


".....Andrew Lobbenberg, who follows Norwegian for HSBC in London, said he was concerned about the carrier’s substantial number of future aircraft deliveries, which he said placed “considerable burden on its balance sheet.”


“.....There is the risk of overexpansion and fuel prices skyrocketing,” said Henry Harteveldt, travel analyst at Atmosphere Research. Budget airlines appeal to very price-sensitive travelers, he noted, “and if something bad happens to the economy, these travelers will be most affected by the downturn.”

" ...Discount carriers like WOW Air, Condor, Thomas Cook Airlines U.K. and Eurowings (a subsidiary of Lufthansa) have been able to muscle their way into the trans-Atlantic market because of a decade-old revision of the “open skies” pact, which eased various restrictions on routes and fares.

...Naturally, the behemoth legacy carriers are not sitting idly by as the upstarts gnaw away at their market share.

This year British Airways will begin flying between Gatwick Airport and Fort Lauderdale and Oakland, routes served by Norwegian.

BA’s parent company, the International Airlines Group, plans to start a long-haul, low-cost operation out of Barcelona this summer, also to compete with Norwegian.

And Air France KLM recently said it would begin a long-haul operation that would be “simple” and “innovative.”

In the United States, JetBlue is considering entering the European market. Philip Stewart, a spokesman, said that the airline had the option to take delivery of Airbus A321LR aircraft and that the plane “could potentially fly to Europe from the East Coast.” He said Europe suffered from a lack of competition and high fares, “and that is certainly an environment that JetBlue competes well in.”

American carriers that already fly to Europe are focusing on new in-flight products to challenge airlines like Norwegian, which offers a “premium” in-flight service with more legroom, meals and airport lounge access, along with three different economy fares. Condor also offers flights with three classes of service.

The president of Delta, Glen Hauenstein, said last week that by next year the carrier would fully roll out its “basic economy” fare — for which seats are assigned at check-in and the ability to make changes or cancel is prohibited — on international flights.

In addition, starting this year Delta will begin offering a higher-priced “premium select” service on Airbus A350 and Boeing 777 aircraft, with improved seat pitch and upgraded meals, among other amenities.

For its part, American recently began offering a “premium economy” service on 787-9 Dreamliner flights from Dallas to Madrid and Paris, and will eventually introduce it on all international wide-body aircraft."

------

[Enzo999]

[quote=Enzo999;9643906]

How about you go to Norwegians website and download the annual report 2015. Read it. Then read it again. Google the terms you dont know. Then read it again. That should answer your questions...

Don't remember asking a question! But I am sure their 2015 figures are simply spectacular. I am slightly too busy at the moment reading an update from my union (maybe you can google that!) regarding my pension and benefits (again if your confused by those words please refer to your friend google)!

[Parkbremse]

So where has NOK 17,131,000,000 of debt come from ?


Quoting an absolute debt figure without context, without a balance sheet and without looking at asset structure is just showing off lack basic of business knowledge :ugh:

Here is again a report by SEB Bank of NAS i posted earlier which is publicly available:

https://webapp.sebgroup.com/mbs/research.nsf/alldocsbyunid/CD0FD8856587EB75C1257F56004F564C/$FILE/NAScredit110216aqw.pdf

They give an explanation for their solid B credit rating with stating strength and risks of the corporate structure. If you google a little further, you will notice that in an aviation context, a solid B is about average and considering that they are aggressively expanding gives a hint that financial institutions are actually seeing that this company is build on solid grounds while also acknowledging the risks that go along with such an expansion.

Another good source is the official annual report 2015, which as well publicly available. That will give you more information on the asset and liability structure and also an overview of some key financial figures from the last 10 years.

People here get always annoyed when they read an article or report in the media which shows no understanding of aviation at all or quoting out of context figures, like when there has been a crash or when a there is a labour related conflict between pilots and management (and the public opinion is swayed against pilots by just quoting wrong figures) but have on the other hand no problem at all, and have taken it with Norwegian to the extreme, to do the exact same thing, jumping to conclusions from hearsay (contents and structure of contracts) or out of context figures without having background knowledge ( do you know without asking google what tangible assets are, do you know how to properly read a balance sheet, do you know about the reporting standards of a large corporation) and showing a confirmation bias that would make an awesome case study in every CRM class.

Its all about emotions not about facts here anymore. Post factum world par excellance.

[Direct Bondi]

financial institutions are actually seeing that this company is built on solid groundsHow will the Spanish uprising affect the foundations?

“Spanish unions threaten Norwegian strike” – DN News 10/1/17

http://www.dn.no/nyheter/2017/01/10/0832/Arbeidsliv/spansk-fagforening-truer-norwegian-med-streik (http://www.dn.no/nyheter/2017/01/10/0832/Arbeidsliv/spansk-fagforening-truer-norwegian-med-streik)

Spanish crews reject airline “unemployment” labor model:

“We will not accept to negotiate with NAR ES, a staffing company, since this is not consistent with the [Spanish] labor laws, says USO [Union Sindical Obrera] representative Ernesto Inglesis”

[INKJET]

In other news BA staff are/have walked out, easyJet pilots threatened strike action, Virgin pilots work to rule and on it goes, pilots threatening strike action seldom happens, at least outside Norway.

Unfortunately for some they will only be happy if Norwegian goes bust or has a crash, for the real anti Norwegian trolls, preferably both, this illustrates more about them than it does about Norwegian

Bondi has been at it for years and thus far has be wrong about 99% of his assertions.

No one pretends life in Norwegian is perfect but it's what it is, if people don't like it they are free to leave, all join voluntarily, not drafted.

All of Norwegians pilots pay tax and social insurance in their country of work, deducted by the employer mainly OSM

UK pilots have a union agreement with OSM, Bondi will tell you it's worthless, but it has managed to gain a 3 year pay deal, private health cover, pension and changes/improvement to the hotels used.

I have worked for a few airlines in my time and Norwegian meets my needs, I work more than I did in some ( now bust) but on the flip side I earn way more than I did in any of the previous ones that had a more conventional employment set up.

I don't pretend to be an accountant or understand debt ratios, but I do understand that you need scale in this business to be profitable, you also need full aircraft, Norwegian have both, this is an airline that will have 21 B 787 dream liners by year end plus over a 100 B738.

Ryanair is pulling away from easyJet and Norwegian is closing the gap on easyJet

Just need to avoid crashes and going bust ��

[marvelman]

---

--- Debt - financial consequences :

---- Just a few Financial FACTS --


"...In particular,

the group's net debt has ballooned

from --- NOK4.4 billion at the end of 2013 --- to --- NOK18.7 billion ( EUR 2.0 billion ) at the end of 3Q 2016.

This has coincided with the addition of long haul aircraft to its business model, but also reflects expansion of its narrowbody fleet. "


"... Norwegian's profitability suffered after its long haul launch, falling into loss in 2014 and returning to profit in 2015

–-- mainly thanks to lower fuel prices.

It is likely to report another increase in profit for 2016, ... ---- but again mainly due to lower fuel prices:
at the 9M 2016 stage its ex fuel unit cost was up by 3%

--- and unit revenue was flat. "

"...Norwegian plans to accelerate its ASK growth from 18% in 2016 to 30% in 2017, driven by a 60% increase in widebody capacity and a 20% increase for narrowbody routes.
This is likely to place more acute downward pressure on unit revenue, while help from lower fuel prices may not be as strong as in 2016."

"...Moreover, Norwegian expects its capital expenditure to double
from --- USD 1.0 billion in 2016 --- to --- USD 2.1 billion in 2017 as aircraft deliveries step up significantly.

"This points to a further increase in net debt. " ..... " but debt must be repaid one day. "


----- FINANCE / DEBT :

Source : 4-traders - Thomson Reuters

Estimates in Million NOK -

2016 e - 22,016
2017 e - 33,695
2018 e - 43,416
2019 e - 57,611

-------------------


The stock price continues in Steady Persistent Decline.

MINUS - 30 % - From Last April 2016.

MINUS - 11% - From two weeks ago, January 2017

Last April 379 / January 302 / Now 268 again .



Norwegian faces MANY challenges,

Overcapacity - Overexpansion / Increased Volatility / Rising Debt / Rising Financing Interest Rates / Rising Intense Competition / Escalating Fare Wars / Rising Fuel Prices / Underpaid - Overworked Labor Force.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The sensitivity-analysis showed us that our model is highly sensitive to the fuel cost and the currency combined due to high volatility and sensitivity towards the cost of debt.
The sensitivity towards the cost of debt is driven by NAS having a high debt to equity ratio."

A debt to equity ratio of 5 means that debt holders have a 5 times more claim on assets than equity holders.

A high debt to equity ratio usually means that a company has been aggressive in financing growth with debt,
and, often results in volatile earnings as a result of the additional interest expense and a driver of stock performance / risk.

S A S AB's Debt to Equity Ratio (Quarterly ) : 0.00 for July 2016.

Norwegian Air Shuttle Debt to Equity Ratio (Quarterly): 5.83 for Sept. 2016.

Norwegian Air Shuttle Debt to Equity Ratio ( Annual ) :

Dec09 Dec10 Dec11 Dec12 Dec13 Dec14 Dec15
0.99 > 1.38 > 2.19 > 2.28 > 2.37 > 6.30 > 6.61


Norwegian Air Shuttle And Companies / Investment Rating = Baa3

Investment Grade: Aaa → Aa1 → Aa2 → Aa3 → A1 → A2 → A3 → Baa1 → Baa2 → Baa3

Long-term Corporate Obligation Ratings are the relative credit risk of fixed-income obligations with an original maturity of 1 year or more.
The ratings reflect both the likelihood of default and any financial loss suffered in the event of default.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Busbo]

3 year pay deal, private health cover, pension

Certainly not doubting you but this is in contrast to what was said at a recent open day (yesterday).

The heads of recruitment were asked directly about pensions and health care and the answer was definite no. Apparently a pension scheme was being "looked at". There was also no mention of any pay deal.

The open day was specifically for 737 although the terms for the 787 were also gone over.

Perhaps the deal you refer to isn't applicable to new joiners?

[Direct Bondi]

99% of the rhetoric by Inkjet and his kind is heavily influenced by Kjos Kool-Aid. The fact that Norwegian’s Spanish crews are rejecting the airline “unemployment” scheme and recently announced they are prepared to strike, speaks volumes.

Here’s what the Norwegian Pilot Group posted on facebook regarding your prospective employer, Orient Ship Management, OSM:

“In our opinion, OSM Aviation has already inflicted damage upon the reputation and finances of our company and Norwegian would be improved by disassociation with a company who's agenda seems to be focused elsewhere”

https://www.facebook.com/norwegianpilotgroup/posts/1398607800149526 (https://www.facebook.com/norwegianpilotgroup/posts/1398607800149526)

(if a sign-up window appears, click 'not now' to remove)

[INKJET]

What i state is 100% correct for LGW based crews and that includes new joiners

Bondi, why don't you tell everyone why Norwegian is your obsession, it would amuse and enlighten

[Enzo999]

What i state is 100% correct for LGW based crews and that includes new joiners

Bondi, why don't you tell everyone why Norwegian is your obsession, it would amuse and enlighten

So just to clarify if I were to join Norwegian today on the 787 based in LGW I would be employed by Norwegian on annual salary in pounds with all my tax deducted through PAYE, with a pension, Health insurance and LOL insurance and I would not have to pay 30k up front for the type rating. Just want to make sure because this is far from what I was led to believe.

[FlipFlapFlop]

INKJET. I am dying to know more about the pension, health insurance and licence insurance. None of this was mentioned to me a few months ago when I was fleetingly interested. And is all this with Norwegian or OSM and if the latter how the hell does that work for the pension ?

[GA F15]

So just to clarify if I were to join Norwegian today on the 787 based in LGW I would be employed by Norwegian on annual salary in pounds with all my tax deducted through PAYE, with a pension, Health insurance and LOL insurance and I would not have to pay 30k up front for the type rating. Just want to make sure because this is far from what I was led to believe.

Maybe someone can correct me if I'm wrong (I'm sure they will!), however I believe you are getting Norwegian SH and Norwegian LH agencies confused.
Norwegian SH operate using OSM and have the benefits INKJET mentions, whereas NLH use Rishworth and don't have the pension, LOL etc.

Is that correct?

[marvelman]

--

-- If Not Current Rated 777 / 787,

-- Pay Upfront 30,000 EUR, if Boeing Current , OR, Pay Upfront 40,000 EUR, if NOT Boeing Current

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


-- EU Commission - report:

----------------- Case M.7949 – NORWEGIAN / SHIPHOLD / OSM AVIATION


On 21 April 2016,

the European Commission received notification of a proposed concentration pursuant to Article 4 of the Merger Regulation and following a referral pursuant to Article 4(5) of the Merger Regulation by which the undertakings

Norwegian Air Resources Holding Ltd ('NARH', Ireland),

controlled by Norwegian Air Shuttle ASA ('Norwegian', Norway),

and

OSM Aviation Group Ltd ('OSM Aviation Holding', Cyprus),

controlled by Shiphold Ltd ('Shiphold', Cyprus),

acquire within the meaning of Article 3(1)(b) of the Merger Regulation joint control of the whole of the undertaking OSM Aviation Ltd ('OSM Aviation',
Cyprus) by way of purchase of shares3 .

NARH and OSM Aviation Holding are collectively designated hereinafter as the 'Parties'.


MARKET DEFINITION

OSM Aviation acts as an intermediary between crews (pilots and cabin crew members)

and

AOC holders and provides temporary and permanent employment services and related HR management services to AOC holders.


THE PARTIES

NARH is a resource company providing,
through its subsidiaries,
crew and crew management services exclusively to its parent, Norwegian Air Shuttle ASA (Norway), and its affiliates (together 'Norwegian').

--- Norwegian's operations are separated into,

---a commercial airline group with the appropriate Air Operator Certificate holders ('AOC holders'),
---an asset group,
---a resource group
---and other activities.

OSM Aviation Holding is a holding company controlled by Shiphold.
Shiphold is a group mainly active in (i) maritime services, (ii) aviation services, and (iii) ship owning.

OSM Aviation offers a full range of crew management services to AOC holders
including provision of personnel, recruitment, planning and re-planning, wage payment, training and HR.


THE TRANSACTION

The Transaction consists in the indirect acquisition by NARH of 50% of the shares in OSM Aviation from OSM Aviation Holding.
OSM Aviation will after the Transaction be jointly controlled by its current parent,
OSM Aviation Holding (and indirectly Shiphold), and by its new parent, NARH (and indirectly Norwegian).

Additional transactions are due to take place on 1 July 2016, on the day when the joint venture is planned to become operational (the 'operational closing'). Those transactions include the transfer of 100% of the shares

in one of NARH subsidiaries, Norwegian Air Resources Asia Pte. Limited ('NAR Asia'),

from NARH to OSM Aviation.

Pursuant to the Shareholders' Agreement between NARH and OSM Aviation Holding, NAR Asia will be jointly controlled by the Parties.


-------15 pages --- link --- http://ec.europa.eu/competition/mergers/cases/decisions/m7949_400_3.pdf


---

[7Q Off]

which hotels you use in FLL, JFK and LAX? thanks

[JW411]

Surely you do not seriously expect anyone to post that sort of information on pprune?

[INKJET]

So is this guy on anti Kojs cool-aid ? this from the CAPA site.

Some opponents claim safety concerns arise from NAI's employment practices

An argument put forward by Captain Stephen Coleman, whose filing said that he had worked at two separate airlines in the Norwegian Group, was that 'atypical' employment practices undermine safety standards and, "European regulators are unable to competently oversee the Norwegian Group".

'Atypical' employment refers to employment on terms other than an open-ended employment contract; these include self-employment, fixed-term work and work via temporary work agencies, as well as zero-hour contracts and pay-to-fly schemes.

[Direct Bondi]

Inkjet;

Page 55 of the EU Commission funded, Atypical Employment in Aviation Report, defines atypical employment as:

“Atypical employment in the European aviation industry generally manifests itself as fixed-term work, part-time work, fixed-term work via work agencies, (bogus) self-employment and/or zero-hour contracts”

https://www.eurocockpit.be/sites/default/files/report_atypical_employment_in_aviation_15_0212_f.pdf

As you know, Orient Ship Management agency is fractionally owned by a distant, non-airline, Norwegian asset/holding/resource group. OSM employs pilots and flight attendants and rents them temporarily to a Norwegian AOC airline. Crews may be returned to OSM by the respective Norwegian airline, without notice reason or recourse.

This airline “unemployment” shell game is clearly an atypical labor model, previously described by the DOT as “novel and complex”. The scheme permits Norwegian to have favorable financing from the banks. As confirmed by Kjos to VG News:

”Norwegian boss is crystal clear that he is not at all interested in negotiating the pilots demands for connection to the parent NAS [the AOC holder] - This will eliminate our ability to finance the 240 planes. With such a model we would not have gotten the funding of the banks to operate”:

http://www.vg.no/nyheter/innenriks/kjos-om-pilotenes-hovedkrav-uaktuelt/a/23408996/

The hypocrisy of the Norwegian regime never ceases to amaze. Kjos wrote to the DOT on June 1, 2015, testifying;

“Norwegian has regularly utilized the services of employment agencies for the recruitment of temporary provision of crews for a transitional period of 24-26 months in connection with the opening of new bases”

Is the statement by Kjos honest or dishonest?

https://www.regulations.gov/document?D=DOT-OST-2013-0204-0203

(open pdf file and scroll to letter)

[marvelman]

January 03, 2017


US DOT​

​....​ request of Norwegian Air UK_Limited (“NAUK”) for “expedited processing ...… of December 21, 2016
​ ​​
--- ​ Motion of Norwegian Air UK Limited for Expedited Treatment

For the reasons we have previously stated in this docket, ​

involving NAUK’s corporate affiliate Norwegian Air International,

​ ​however,

the Department should propose to deny

As it stands, NAUK’s application raises serious questions about whether its business plan is consistent with the requirements for issuance of a foreign air carrier permit set out in the aviation statutes (49 U.S.C. § 41302) and with Article 17 bis of the U.S.-EU Air Transport Agreement. Because of these concerns, the Labor Parties have asked DOT to seek additional information from NAUK in order to clarify the carrier’s staffing plans for its services to the U.S.

Norwegian Air UK’s application ---- unless NAUK commits to ensure ---- that the pilots and flight attendants who will operate its transatlantic flights will be based in the United Kingdom or the U.S. and will be employed by UK or U.S. employers on Contracts --- Governed by UK or US Law.........


NOTE:
​​
" .......Contracts --- Governed by UK or U.S. ​L​aw...... " :​


- O . S . M. Orient Ship Management - Cyprus / Asia

​-​ ​PLUS​ ​

-​ 26 Twenty Six ​"Norwegian " Subsidiaries =

= The Definition of Shell Gamesmanship with​ multi complex jurisdictions

[INKJET]

marvel man for gods sake change the record man...

This is old new and utterly meaningless, there is no requirement for NUK to employ only Brits or Yanks, although it does and Norwegian employs more American nationals than any other airline outside of the USA.

So the clock is ticking and lets see if Trump rejects NUK application or revokes NAI approval

[marvelman]

Very Amusing ! These "Stubborn Facts" are JUST the Only Facts.

INTERVIEW - The Sunday Times

Freddie Laker of the fjords in a dogfight with Americans

The transatlantic expansion plans of former fighter pilot Bjorn Kjos rest on defeating the US foes of his budget carrier, Norwegian Air Shuttle.

Bjorn Kjos prods the table with a meaty finger. An expression between a grimace and a smile furrows his face.

“It’s bull****,” says the chief executive of Norwegian Air Shuttle. “This is either political or somebody has a private agenda.”

The boss of Europe’s third-biggest budget airline is warming to his favourite theme: his battle to break into the most lucrative sector of the aviation industry — transatlantic travel.

The “bull****” is the accusations made by rival carriers, including the allegation his plan hinges on using cheap Asian workers.

“They say we are using Bangkok crew. We don’t have any Bangkok crew or Asian crew in Ireland or in other places. ......."


Link----- http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/norwegian-stands-its-ground-in-cut-price-battle-for-the-skies-mgtcf6bj9

AND AGAIN :

In a recent letter to EC Commissioner for Transport, Norwegian's CEO writes:

....." With respect to the facts," ......
... asserts .... " Norwegian bases many crewmembers operating transatlantic services in Bangkok "....... "This is simply false".....!

.....signed......Bjorn Kjos, CEO, Norwegian Group.

https://www.regulations.gov/document?D=DOT-OST-2013-0204-15120

AND--- THEN, THE "STUBBORN" REALITY:

Norwegian / London - Las Vegas flight - maiden voyage, PICTURE...WITH ...FULL Bangkok cabin crew :


http://imgur.com/a/il7sj

http://imgur.com/a/il7sj

Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet
Norwegian Air fantasy, for the " Baghdad Bob Award " .

" Baghdad Bob Award " :

Named after the Iraqi information minister who dispensed ludicrously false reports at the beginning of the Iraq War. Remember, Baghdad Bob (Mohammed Saeed al-Sahhaf) gained celebrity status by making up incredible and wholly imaginary victories for the Iraqi forces and ignoring facts (e.g. the U.S. and allied forces were routing Iraqi troops) that were blindingly obvious and instantaneously supported by video evidence.

Furthermore:

F Y I - Trump is NOT the Only Way !

This is an Ongoing - Never Ending "War" , and, in the End , Norwegian's B K will Lose !


aviation statutes (49 U.S.C. § 41302) and with Article 17 bis of the U.S.-EU Air Transport Agreement.

involving NAUK’s corporate affiliate Norwegian Air International,

​​unless NAUK commits to ensure


NAUK.......Contracts --- Governed by UK or U.S. ​L​aw......

AND--- THEN, THE "STUBBORN" REALITY:

- O . S . M. Orient Ship Management - Cyprus / Asia

​-​ ​PLUS​ ​

-​ 26 Twenty Six ​"Norwegian " Subsidiaries =

= The Definition of Shell Gamesmanship with​ multi complex jurisdictions

[Avenger]

The title of the tread is "Norwegian 787 LGW based" not " a lecture in corporate structures and finance" can we stick to the core of " terms and endearment?

[A and C]

Do you think your evidence to the USA DoT will be taken seriously ?

[Direct Bondi]

Here’s another post the DOT, media and traveling public may wish to consider as evidence regarding Norwegian’s “agency employment/airline unemployment” shell game and associated labor troubles, that may seriously affect its 737 and 787 services:

“People want to strike, because they are very tired of Norwegian and their attitude during the negotiations”

“Norwegian delaying collective labor agreement negotiations as much as possible - Norwegian in full dispute with cabin employee unions in the United States and Spain”:

http://www.dagbladet.no/nyheter/norwegian-forsinker-tarifforhandlingene-sa-mye-som-mulig/66770816

A spokesman for the Spanish union, USO, said, “It is most important that the crew be recognized as workers for the airline and not a staffing company”.

The International Labor Organization guide, Regulating the Employment Relationship in Europe, Section 2, Determining the existence of an employment relationship, page 38, - indicates there is an "employment relationship” between the crew member and the Norwegian AOC airline.

The ILO guide may be downloaded at:

http://www.ilo.org/wcmsp5/groups/public/@ed_dialogue/@dialogue/documents/publication/wcms_209280.pdf

Remember; Kjos wrote to the DOT on June 1, 2015, testifying;

“Norwegian has regularly utilized the services of employment agencies for the recruitment of temporary provision of crews for a transitional period of 24-26 months in connection with the opening of new bases”

Temporary and transitional, indeed.

[Busbo]

can we stick to the core of " terms and endearment?

I think that was a no

[Fratemate]

Marvelman and Direct Bondi,

Please stop your constant de-railing of this topic. Besides your ridiculous formatting (both of you), which makes it almost impossible to read your posts, you are not contributing anything to the terms and endearments of Norwegian 787 based in LGW. Your constant vendettas are boring and this is not the forum for your soapbox postulating. If you wish to spout forth on all things union etc with NAS then open your own thread in a different section so others don't have to have your constant interruptions on the Ts & Cs of this airline. You've both got some sort of bug to bear with the company (although from New York and Sydney I can't really see the connection to LGW and you've both refused to say why constantly dip your oars in) but your sniping at every turn is ruining the thread for everyone else.

All pilots should be very aware of the pros AND the cons of any airline and I am not, for one moment, saying that the poor pay, lack of days off, absence of pension etc should not be promulgated. What I am saying, however, is your constant news links to union news or what's happening in the USA with Trump etc should have their own subject heading, so that we might ignore your tedious rants and concentrate on the subject.

[Fratemate]

This topic is much better now I've 'ignored' Marvelman and Direct Bondi but that does mean I have to log in, instead of just lurking. It's a shame there's no moderator to rid this thread of extraneous nonsense and irrelevant chest pounding from copy and paste 'experts'.

[JaxofMarlow]

I have to say I disagree with the last couple of posts. Norwegian is by far and away the most controversial European employer around. There are very many who consider them as the vanguard of future decimation of our terms and conditions and if they do end up using asian cheap labour on european registered aircraft then god help us all. Yes, DB and M posts are a bit repetitive but they are still better than the regular requests for sample schedules by the tempted few.

[OldCessna]

I think POTUS Trump will be bringing Norwegian to a screeching halt this week.

New DOT Secretary just sworn in.

U.S. Airline Pilots Rally at White House: Will Ask Trump To Block Obama's Export of White-Collar Jobs - Breitbart (http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2017/01/23/obama-exports-us-airline-jobs/)

[Fratemate]

JaxofMarlow,

I'm not saying that M and DB are wrong or that their arguments do not have merit. What I am saying is this is not the place for their soapboxing. By all means, create a thread elsewhere and discuss the rights, wrongs and politics of Norwegian, Trump, unions etc etc etc but ELSEWHERE and not in the Terms & Endearments thread. Their constant bitching does nothing to enhance the knowledge base here, especially when neither has admitted to having any, actual, experience of Norwegian other than what they've read or heard about elsewhere. Their 'facts' are merely repetition of others' words.

I will not add any more comments as I'm well aware that I am derailing the thread and can be accused of doing exactly what they are doing......albeit to a far lesser extent.

Back to Norwegian 787....LGW...terms & endearments.

[macdo]

If Mr Trump stops their long haul ambitions, perhaps their won't be much in the way of T's&C's to discuss !

[INKJET]

You rather miss the point, even if Trump were to revoke NAI Dot approval Norwegian will still continue to operate to the US under European skies through their Norwegian AOC.

With Brexit looming he is very unlikely to block NUK application, the Uk being his NBF

Ironically it is the fact that the DoT have held approval for so long that has forced Norwegian to fly to mainly the US because it works better with the restrictions than without them, otherwise Norwegian could utilise the crews in a better way for non US long haul destinations

[annakm]

Mr Trump, better than anyone, understands that money and business are God. It's not just us on this side of the Atlantic that benefit from discounted flights - the Yanks are pretty savvy and cost conscious too. I don't think there'll be any patriotic loyalty to their own airlines if there is a better deal to be had with Norwegian.

[gdbz]

Hello, everyone,

With an interview scheduled as RCA, reading this post at length trying to find more information about terms and conditions, and also about "how it is" to actually work there.

I know about the low pay... I'd be taking a paycut for sure, but then, reading :

Lets say you started out as an FO 3 years ago on LH. You just upgraded to captain on the osm contract year 1. Monthly pay :
Basic 8125 £
Per diems 913 £
Lets assume 89 hrs for the month and 4 unused standby duties : 4091 £
Total : 13129 £ plus pension comes in at 5 percent.
Assume a 4th year FO who failed his upgrade and on a OSM contract : Monthly pay 7852 £ plus 5 percent pension..

and the fact that this is under the OSM contract that you sign after 3 years...

Seriously, I don't understand it... this is decent pay really... so:
- why would norwegian do that ?
- why don't they talk about it properly to attract more people ?
- is this really true ? This could be the make or break for me

On another note, they sent me some rosters, hotels are on there, I checked, its not that crap, and most layovers to california seemed to be 48h...

I would love to get more insight about all this...

Info about the OSM contract, and how it really is to work for NLH. How's the training ? The command course for an RCA. How long to the upgrade btw ? How's the atmosphere ? Are people happy at work ? How are the other pilots to work with ? How is the relationship with direct management, training, ground staff, the crew ?

Thanks :-)

[JaxofMarlow]

Do not forget that figures quoted are for LH captain after you have spent 3 years as FO.

I guess the questions you should be getting answers to are...

What's the pension ?
What's the lol ?
What's the sick pay ?
What's the increments every year ?
How much did you pay to get in ?
What are your employee rights as you work for OSM ?
Which union will you be a member of ?

If you do not actually know from them what the salary actually is have you wondered why?

[gdbz]

I guess I would very much like answers to your questions as well as mine :-) and preferably from pilots actually working at Norwegian Long Haul.

My reason for coming back are family related and I know it won't be ideal. But then not being with my family is not ideal either. I'm weighing the 2 that's all.

If you have answers to some of your or my questions pls don't hesitate :-)

[orvillenwilbur]

Not sure I would want to be a passenger knowing my pilot had to pay to get his job.

[Direct Bondi]

Fratemate:

This topic is much better now I've 'ignored' Marvelman and Direct Bondi but that does mean I have to log in, instead of just lurking. It's a shame there's no moderator to rid this thread of extraneous nonsense and irrelevant chest pounding from copy and paste 'experts'.
Not only have you failed (spectacularly) in your attempt to moderate and censor this thread, you conveniently overlooked the title of this forum, copied and pasted below for your review:

Terms and Endearment (http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment-38/)
The forum the bean counters hoped would never happen. Your news on pay, rostering, allowances, extras and negotiations where you work - scheduled, charter or contract.

Like the majority of my detractors, you are unwilling or unable to address the content of my posts, entirely applicable to the forum prerequisites above. Sadly, you can only provide witless responses or invent false criticism, such as my necessarily using facts “copied and pasted” from supporting official publications and media reports.

My recent post references Norwegian’s Spanish and US based cabin crews rightly seeking to obtain a Collective Labor Agreement directly with a Norwegian airline, rather than a distant Norwegian Resource Group, fractionally owned, staffing agency, OSM:

http://www.dagbladet.no/nyheter/norwegian-forsinker-tarifforhandlingene-sa-mye-som-mulig/66770816

Perhaps you can review the International Labor Organization Guide to the Employment Relationship in Europe and provide a reason why Norwegian’s agency employed, LGW based pilots, some represented by BALPA, have bizarrely chosen to accept a collective labor agreement with a staffing agency, despite their “employment relationship” meeting the legal criteria for a CLA and union representation directly with the Norwegian airline:

“In the United Kingdom, a mixed approach comprising statutes, regulations and case law is used to meet the challenge of new types of work [atypical employment]. In some cases judges have demonstrated a degree of judicial creativity to imply a contract of employment between, for example, a user undertaking and a temporary worker. For instance, in Dacas v. Brook St Bureau [2004] ICR 1437,the court found that “as a general (but not invariable) rule for employment law purposes a temp supplied by an employment agency to an end-user client [a Norwegian airline] will be an employee of the client and will be neither self employed nor an employee of the agency itself”.

http://www.ilo.org/wcmsp5/groups/public/@ed_dialogue/@dialogue/documents/publication/wcms_209280.pdf

Norwegian declares on its website that it complies (allegedly) with ILO conventions. There should be no issue for Norwegian to accept the direct employment criteria detailed in the ILO Guide above:

http://www.norwegian.com/uk/about/company/corporate-responsibility/human-worth/

Norwegian’s agency employed pilots should follow the lead of the flight attendants and seek a CLA and union representation directly with the Norwegian airline.

BALPA continues to deposit pilot union dues for representation to a staffing agency.

[Direct Bondi]

Inkjet;

I had no idea you would respond when I stated my detractors are unwilling or unable to address the content of my posts. Please add; “or too ignorant” to the aforementioned traits.

Why do you think Norwegian refused to change the roster of two union representatives to allow them to attend a collective bargaining meeting with the airline? - Link:

http://cabinassociation.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/Mediation-Request-Letter.pdf

Is it possible Bjorn Kjos and his parent airline only welcomes union representation when they are not party to any agreement? – as with Norwegian’s LGW based pilots.

[INKJET]

Bondi the reason no one responds is that you have lost all objectivity in your 'red mist' anger against Norwegian, as the company has continued to grow, win awards, modify its labour practices, pay its social and employment taxes you continue to drive down a peninsular screaming from the roof tops about how bad they are.

I can well understand that some of our American friends feel threatened by Norwegians growth (but its a fraction of the Gulf states into the US) and complain about in the main misleading reports of labor practices suggesting that all the crews are on doggy contracts based out of Bangkok, simply not true..but we have listened to and read your output of cut and paste for well over two years now.

In December you relished gleefully that Trump would stop Norwegian dead in its tracks, by revoking NAI DoT approval, without acknowledging that even if he were to do so it would not stop Norwegian flying to the US as it has done since introducing the Dream-liner.

Your childish Kool-aid and Rock ape comments only serve to further detract from your credibility.

Sully waanbes on the steps of congress seeking protection having backed the wrong nag (Hillary) is just so amusing.

No one pretends that working for/on behalf/through an agency call it what you like is perfect, but its much better than the ** semi self employed Irish Ltd company scheme or the P2Fly of Germania model or Wizz air pay rates, or Eurowings 330 rates and many other across Europe let alone the far East

[Direct Bondi]

Inkjet;

Your lack of a direct response to the content of any of my posts may be categorized as; 1. Unable 2. Unwilling 3. Too ignorant.

Based on your comment in post #945:

sell your children, rape your wife, hang your mother??
I’m going with option 3.

Still curious why Norwegian’s LGW based pilots sought a Collective Labor Agreement with a staffing agency when their “employment relationship” meets all the legal criteria for a CLA directly with the Norwegian airline, particularly when BALPA and its resources could have pursued the matter:

http://www.ilo.org/wcmsp5/groups/public/@ed_dialogue/@dialogue/documents/publication/wcms_209280.pdf

Here’s what the Norwegian Pilot Group thinks about OSM and “modified labor practices” - copied and pasted from their facebook page:

“Whilst we welcome his [CEO, Espen Hoiby] admission of many management failings since this project was started, we do not share his optimism for the future. In our opinion, OSM Aviation has already inflicted damage upon the reputation and finances of our company and Norwegian would be improved by disassociation with a company who's agenda seems to be focused elsewhere”

https://www.facebook.com/norwegianpilotgroup/posts/1398607800149526

http://cabinassociation.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/Mediation-Request-Letter.pdf

[INKJET]

I'd probably go with option 3 also...

Thing is, most English folk are fairly pragmatic, BALPA is recognised by OSM, there is a functioning crew council that meets with the AOC holder on a regular basis to resolve issues, thus far they have agreed 3 year pay deal, a pension scheme with a employer contribution of 5%, a private medical insurance with BUPA, sector pay for positioning flights, duty pay for sim sit in duties, changes to the quality and location of hotels.

Now of course we could have engaged in all out conflict, but whats the point ? what would it achieve? your fixation of employment with Norwegian is irrational, you seem to believe that at a flick of a switch our contract could be terminated, well yes with 3 months notice that is correct, but that is true of any company and why would an airline that is desperate to recruit new pilots want to randomly sack 1 or more of them? your argument just doesn't make sense.

You have dedicated your life to cutting and pasting abstract articles about employment practices within Norwegian which frankly no one else seems to care about.

It is their train set and they choose how this wish to run it, so far you have suggested economic meltdown, air safety issue, false employment, non compliance with tax laws, tried your level best to support the american airlines and pilots in its attempt to deny DoT approval all to no avail , you have failed in everything and every point you've tried to make.

Perhaps if you had just got on with your job as a pilot instead of behaving like a teapot sprouting forth froth, you wouldn't feel so bitter and twisted.

[Chesty Morgan]

A whole 5%?!

[Deep and fast]

2% more than I'm getting now chesty!

[Enzo999]

So can someone actually answer the question, what is the OSM salary for a LGW based FO, SFO and Captain? I would like base anual salary plus details of any flight pay or duty pay.

[Direct Bondi]

Enzo999;

Hopefully, someone can provide those details for you. But why is your prospective employer, Orient Ship Management, refusing to answer your questions?

"OSM will answer all your queries relating to the contract, employment and training cost bond” - [email protected]

You may read details in my posts that OSM will not provide you. Good luck.

Inkjet;

In keeping with the modus operandi of the Norwegian regime, you dedicate your posts to making grossly misleading statements regarding the precarious employment relationship with OSM and the guaranteed “unemployment” relationship with the respective Norwegian airline.

BALPA is recognized by OSM
What does this recognition give you with any Norwegian airline? Answer: Nothing.

Norwegian’s LGW based pilots have neither a Collective Labor Agreement nor union recognition, including a token gesture Crew Council, with which Bjorn Kjos and his parent airline must recognize and comply. Any consideration given by the airline to the contract terms and conditions between OSM and their employees, including a purported seniority list, is entirely at the whim of the airline’s incompetent management. Pilots are rented from OSM by the respective Norwegian airline to provide a service and may be retuned to OSM at will.


you seem to believe that at a flick of a switch our contract could be terminated, well yes with 3 months notice that is correctNorwegian’s LGW based pilots DO NOT have a 3-month notice period with any Norwegian airline. The notice period is with the staffing agency employer, OSM.

So yes, at the “flick of a switch” any of Norwegian’s LGW based pilots may be returned to their employer, OSM, without notice, reason or recourse. Moreover, OSM may be indemnified from any obligation to find their employee(s) alternative work based on any action by their client airline, Norwegian. There may be no notice period, or payment in-lieu-of notice, whatsoever. Read the contract!

These fragile employment circumstances create a job security fear culture, as detailed in publicized safety related incidents surrounding Norwegian.

Now of course we could have engaged in all out conflict, but what’s the point? what would it achieve?It would achieve employment law protections and compliance, additional labor rights and labor principles, a CLA and union representation DIRECTLY with the Norwegian airline. A shelf stacker employed by a UK supermarket has more employment rights than a LGW based, 787 or 737 pilot flying for Norwegian.

The UK is a signatory to International Labor Organization conventions. The ILO Guide to the Employment Relationship in Europe clearly indicates all legal criteria is met to permit Norwegian’s LGW based pilots to have union representation and a CLA directly with the respective Norwegian airline. Given that Bjorn Kjos declares he complies with ILO conventions, there should be no “all out conflict” in securing the aforementioned objectives:

“We place great importance on ensuring compliance with employee’s basic human rights as outlined in the International Labor Organization’s core conventions” - Link:

http://www.norwegian.com/uk/about/company/corporate-responsibility/human-worth/

The next time LGW based pilots pay their union dues to BALPA for representation to OSM staffing agency, I suggest they include the ILO Guide to the Employment Relationship in Europe below, and ask BALPA to explain why they are not representing them directly to the Norwegian airline - Link:

http://www.ilo.org/wcmsp5/groups/public/@ed_dialogue/@dialogue/documents/publication/wcms_209280.pdf

The US and Spanish based flight attendants are pursuing union representation directly with the respective Norwegian airline. Why?

[Avenger]

Having been a member of both BALPA and the IPA i would loose no sleep in NOT HAVING any union representation. And as for Trump overturning the DOT decision...not a cats chance in hell .. Looking at the package offered by NAS, about 10000 euro a month, its not the best, but its surely not the worst..as long as the pay cheque arrives on time, to be honest, who cares where it comes from..

[Enzo999]

I have no intestest in working for OSM but I am interested in what the pay is, this thread is 49 pages long and not once has anyone given exact salary details. Lots of arguing but no actual details, how hard is it to say what the salary is?

[Avenger]

Different tax codes will result in different incomes, however, based on Captain salary with per diem and 60 block hrs it works out £5925 after tax and FO again 60 block hours £3957 after tax for non-married UK tax payer. Plus or minus say £100 for married allowances.

[captplaystation]

As Bondi says


So yes, at the “flick of a switch” any of Norwegian’s LGW based pilots may be returned to their employer, OSM, without notice, reason or recourse. Moreover, OSM may be indemnified from any obligation to find their employee(s) alternative work based on any action by their client airline, Norwegian. There may be no notice period, or payment in-lieu-of notice, whatsoever. Read the contract!


This applies to any OSM employee in any base (ask me how I know :hmm:) at least until the Norwegian fish squirming on the hook is finally forced to accept a proper CLA in Spanish bases.


Not interested in anything with a Red Nose these days, but I find the figures quoted by Avenger shockingly underwhelming for a wide body Capt position.

Even 737 Capts in EuroBases were netting €7000 a month without spending weeks away from home in 3rd rate hotels , with jet lag etc as the cherry on the top.

[SADDLER]

Hello folks
If Norwegian start flying from Ireland to the States, will they have pilot bases in these places ?

[DutchExpat]

Sooo if my counting is correct 60 days have passed and the approval is final or am I missing something?

[Enzo999]

So what is the anual salary? Not monthly net figures! It's an easy question BA year one salary is £55,150 plus £10 per hour flight pay plus £3.25 duty pay. Everyone keeps defending Norwegians terms and conditions but Nobody will give a straight answer as to what they actually are and I don't understand why!

[Avenger]

Enzo, why don't you just look at the PPJN site, the figures are updated and accurate. The Uk tax regime is dependant on earnings. Its easy to work out based on average 60 hours, 70 hours etc etc. Take the month salary and multiply by 12 ( twelve) to get an annual salary.. Its an "easy answer"
Norwegian pilot jobs news for airline pilots and aviation schools (http://www.pilotjobsnetwork.com/jobs/Norwegian)

[Avenger]

Yep Dutch, is looking that way..

Release #: 17.01
Date: January 03, 2017

ALPA to DOT: Deny Norwegian UK Application Now

WASHINGTON—In a filing today with the U.S. Department of Transportation (DOT), the Air Line Pilots Association, Int’l (ALPA) and other labor organizations did not oppose a Norwegian Air UK (NAUK) request for expedited processing of its application to fly to and from the United States, but the union continued to maintain that the DOT must reject the application because it fails to explain how the airline’s crews will be employed or how its business model will affect U.S. jobs.

Looks like NLH by committing to use US Pilots and Europeans has snuffed the candle on ALPA and all the " reasonable objections" have been removed. All this nonsense on labour practice etc etc is of no interest to the decision makers at DOT, these are " local issues" and a playground spat.

[FlipFlapFlop]

So, according to PPJN, Capt 787 at Gatwick is £103,000 gross including per diems and block hours at 60pm. Correct ?

[Enzo999]

Right so you are paid by the month, not annnually? So I am confused people seemed to be saying you were employed by OSM but surely you can't be an employee Without an anual salary, does that not make you a contractor? What happens if your sick or pregnant do they still pay you this monthly amount? How do they pay you a 5 percent pension if there is no reference salary to pay it against. Also everyone keeps saying based on 60 hours a month, if you work more than 60 do you get extra money? And if you work less do you still receive your full monthly pay.

[FlipFlapFlop]

God knows Enzo. PPJN is not very clear but then nothing about OSM is.

If they are full time permanent contracts with OSM then why is an annual gross salary so difficult to source. Surely it would be quoted by numerous individuals who would come on on here and say so.

It has been mentioned on here that OSM deduct UK Tax and National Insurance and if this is the case then individuals would appear to be employees of OSM but what these individuals do if Norwegian don't like the individual I just don't know. What if an OSM pilot joins BALPA? What would Norwegian do? Return the individual to OSM ? I am assuming that Norwegian are OSMs only airline "customer".

[Avenger]

(Right so you are paid by the month, not annually), guess this must be true then for all the monthly salaries quoted on PPJN.. Emirates, Qatar, Supnexpress, etc etc..Normally pension contributions are levied at x% of the " basic" for all companies, if O/T is based on block hours, it's just that.. can't see what the confusion is.. regarding getting sick.. in 24 years I've never known a company that pays your salary ad infinitum until you get well...after a period of grace you rely on temporary loss of licence insurance.. So.. Salary is based on BASIC+PER DIEM+BLOCK HOURS.. if you fly no hours you still get a BASIC.. guess that means your not a " contractor".. I don't pay my painter if he doesn't paint my ceiling ..OSM have several clients as an " agency" they recruit for other airlines, not just Norwegian

[Enzo999]

And what is the BASIC?

[Avenger]

Norwegian pilot jobs news for airline pilots and aviation schools (http://www.pilotjobsnetwork.com/jobs/Norwegian) god helps those that help themselves and time spent on diagnosis is rarely wasted!

[Direct Bondi]

Don’t worry too much about being an employee of OSM staffing agency, being rented out and having no labor rights or labor principles directly with the Norwegian airline. This is only a temporary solution – allegedly:

Norwegian CEO, Bjorn Kjos wrote to the DOT on June 1, 2015, testifying;

“Norwegian has regularly utilized the services of employment agencies for the recruitment of temporary provision of crews for a transitional period of 24-26 months in connection with the opening of new bases”

https://www.regulations.gov/document...2013-0204-0203 (https://www.regulations.gov/document?D=DOT-OST-2013-0204-0203)

(open pdf file and scroll to letter)

Perhaps Norwegian’s pilots based in Spain and LGW, still employed by a staffing agency after "24-26 months", can tell us if the statement by Kjos is honest or dishonest?

[Avenger]

And the point being ? As you point out after 36 months, if they don't like it they have had ample opportunity to make up their own minds and vote with their feet. We don't need to lecture them on life choices, its a rather arrogant stance to take, almost insulting to be honest.

[Direct Bondi]

Read the Kjos letter to the DOT.
I am interested to hear if you believe it to be misleading with respect to agency sourced crews and the expectation of eventual direct employment with a Norwegian airline.

[Avenger]

Why would I want to do that?, I don't care if Kjos says he's Batman, with Trump in the hot seat we have more to worry about globally than corporate spin. Kos has cleverly bought time by recruiting pilots and crew in the US and that has spiked the guns over there, now, whether or not these are direct employees, agency staff, part timers of ad-hocs doesn't matter to the unemployed guys taking the jobs or those seeking a change of airline. Pilots fly planes not desks and contracts .

[JW411]

It is indeed going to be interesting to see what our unpromising hysteric will have to say about SAS taking out an AOC in Ireland and opening bases in London and Spain.

[A and C]

Those pilots in the U.K. Are employees of OSM, they pay PAYE tax & NI and have the same employment rights as any other person employed in the U.K.

The result of Norwegian not likening someone and wanting them off the contract ( as some on this forum like to suggest) would be interesting as without grounds for dismissal OSM would likely find themselfs in an industrial court with BALPA and the law on the employees side.

OSM recognised BALPA some time back so union membership is not a problem.

[Enzo999]

So their basic pay must be in pounds? The PPJN web site that I keep getting directed to quotes all monthly basics in euros but the flight pay and per diems in pounds is this correct. Surely you can't pay taxes to the UK inland revenue in euros? Also what is a per diem? It appears to be a fixed amount so why is it not just included as part of the basic?

[Avenger]

Enzo, you don't appear to understand the concept of pay and per diems or that companies can publish pay in any currency but usually pay in local currency. Cathy publish pay in HKD but pay UK staff in GBP. Just convert the Euros to pounds using an exchange rate tool for an approximate salary as some companies fix the exchange rate in advance

[Enzo999]

No I don't understand it which is why I am asking for someone to explain it to me. maybe I am just stupid but this seems like the most complicated arrangement I have ever heard, paid half in euros half in pounds, taxes paid to the inland revenue in a forgiven currency, employed by one company and rented to another! I just fail to see how anything so confused and converluted can be to the benefit of the employee. Anyway if your not willing to explain then I won't loose too much sleep over it, providing you happy with what the deal is then crack on.

[aless85]

@Enzo999

I think people are getting you confused and mixing a lot really in this Thread with SH and LH.

Salaries in Pounds TRI 9.587 CAPT 7.844 RCA 6.101 FO 4.358

I do not have exact figures in Pounds for Per diems but around 1K extra independent of the position.

As far as I know there is no pay for Flight Hours. Basic + Per Diem PERIOD.

For the first 3 years is a Rishworth Contract After that is an OSM contract.

Apparently OSM contract is much better but have to wait the 3 years and do not know the figures of that one either.

[Direct Bondi]

A and C;

Those pilots in the UK are indeed employees of OSM, pay tax, NI, and have employment rights with OSM only, NOT with the Norwegian airline.

The Norwegian airline does not have to “dismiss” anyone, because they do not employ anyone. They simply return the rented pilot(s) or cabin crew(s) to their employer agency, OSM, without notice, reason or recourse.

Agency contracts for the provision of crews to a Norwegian airline contain the clause that “no employment relationship exists between the employee and the present lessee airline” or similar. Read the contract.

A UK Employment Tribunal will only hear disputes between an employer and an employee. Therefore, a LGW based 787 or 737 pilot having a dispute with a Norwegian airline has no legal recourse. BALPA represents pilots to their employer, OSM, not to a Norwegian airline.

I cannot fathom why Norwegian’s LGW based pilots continue to fill BALPA’s coffers with union dues for representation to a staffing agency, when the legal prerequisites exist for representation directly to the Norwegian airline. This is the option Norwegian's US and Spanish crews are pursuing via International Labor Organization guidance:

http://www.ilo.org/wcmsp5/groups/public/@ed_dialogue/@dialogue/documents/publication/wcms_209280.pdf

But yes, I agree, there are far worse options. My dispute is with those who would misrepresent the OSM employment and the Norwegian airline “unemployment” circumstances.

[Avenger]

Why would you even bother with this thread as a BA pilot? BA is a legacy carrier, nothing NLH could offer could come remotely close to a BA career..

[Enzo999]

@Enzo999

I think people are getting you confused and mixing a lot really in this Thread with SH and LH.

Salaries in Pounds TRI 9.587 CAPT 7.844 RCA 6.101 FO 4.358

I do not have exact figures in Pounds for Per diems but around 1K extra independent of the position.

As far as I know there is no pay for Flight Hours. Basic + Per Diem PERIOD.

For the first 3 years is a Rishworth Contract After that is an OSM contract.

Apparently OSM contract is much better but have to wait the 3 years and do not know the figures of that one either.

Thanks for that, nice to get some exact figures! So let me get this right as a new employee with Norwegian I cant work for OSM anyway? I will have to start on a Rishworth contract for 3 years before being allowed to join OSM? Now without opening another can of worms what is the employment status with Rishworth? Contractor I would guess reponsible for paying your own taxes and why would you want to convert to an OSM contract after the 3 years (better rates of pay?)

[Avenger]

CEO Espen Høiby: ?We offer pilots and cabin crew long-term and secure jobs? | IceNews - Daily News (http://www.icenews.is/2017/01/16/ceo-espen-hoiby-we-offer-pilots-and-cabin-crew-long-term-and-secure-jobs/#axzz4XSxrmcRH)

http://www.enewswire.co.uk/2016/06/22/osm-aviation-reaches-agreement-with-the-british-airline-pilots-association/

[A and C]

If as you put it Norwegian "returned" a crew member to OSM then the crew members dispute would be for OSM to resolve as they are the employer and will have to ( in this case ) abide by UK law.

They could not expect to go to court and say we fired the crew member because a customer company did not like them, they would have to have grounds to fire the crew member or the courts would award compensation to the employee.

In terms of employment protection it matters not who foots the compensation bill but that a crew member has the leagal protection afforded by UK law.

[captplaystation]

Can't speak for UK law & the "likely" protection offered (which regrettably has been known to fall short of ones expectations) but, we will see on 29th March how Spanish law views it. . . . . . . . .

[Direct Bondi]

This is a very interesting article:

http://www.icenews.is/2017/01/16/ceo-espen-hoiby-we-offer-pilots-and-cabin-crew-long-term-and-secure-jobs/#axzz4XSxrmcRH

“The agreement will contribute to the best possible collaboration between unions and the company [OSM] including not only adherence to International Labour Organization (ILO) core conventions on freedom of association, organising and collective bargaining, but also the guarantee of regular meetings between unions and management and the inclusion of grievance and arbitration procedures”

Unfortunately, the reality only confirms the gross hypocrisy of the Norwegian regime:

http://cabinassociation.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/Mediation-Request-Letter.pdf

“OSM wrote to the NCCA on December 15,2016 stating that they were cancelling the January 18th meeting due to a scheduling conflict affecting two (2) members of the NCCA bargaining team and would evaluate if the March 1st was still feasible.
The NCCA wrote several emails to OSM asking for the conflicting assignments be pulled so the NCCA can attend the previously agreed to bargaining session on January 18th with a final attempt being made on December 28, 2016. OSM denied all requests for the assignments of the NCCA bargaining team to be pulled”

So much for Norwegian's idea of labor relations.

[captplaystation]

The agreement/implementation of a CLA between SEPLA & OSM/NAR is dragging its heels interminably . . . . mainly due to an attempt best described as "Union Busting" to pick over/ disagree/question every word in the proposed document by the NAR "Sharks". . . they really don't want to do it, and are dragging it out as long as possible whilst trying to avoid any scope clauses that may prevent them closing NAR ES & opening NAR ES #2 the next day with no CLA in place to question the "revised conditions". . . bunch of :mad:

[Jetkopite]

Greetings guys,,

I wanted to ask about info with regards to commuting with Norwegian on the B787 out of LGW? Is it possible to do this to and from the Eastern Mediterranean for example? Is there commuting rosters or set patterns that allow this?

Im currently a skipper on the B777 for the last 6 years and looking to move back to Europe.

Any help or advise would most welcome.

[MikeHoncho]

Hello Jetkopite,

Where do you live? It is possible you travel for free on the NAS network to and from work. Not all duty starts at LGW can also be one of the three big Skandinavien cities, Charles de Gaulle or Barcelona. You have a minimum of 10 days off a month and you can request the off pattern for ex 5+5 or 6+4. The 10 days is a minimum but can also be more not less. Almost everybody commutes so it is possible.

Hope it helps!

[Jetkopite]

Hi Mike thanks for your reply..

I am hoping to base myself out of Larnaca, Cyprus. When you say you can request blocks of 5/5, 6/4 how easy is this to achieve?? Also to achieve this can one expect to work 7 days on in a row with back to back trips??

Also would love to know how the pilots see the airline in terms of atmosphere and being respected by management.

Thanks once again :-))

[yoland]

Are Norwegian finding it difficult to find crews for the 787 considering how poor the contract on offer is and the uncertainty of the operation. A 3 year contract speaks for itself.

[INKJET]

Please elaborate on uncertainty of the operation or stop trying to be a smarty pants

[JaxofMarlow]

Or point him at the other identical thread currently live.

[downwindabeam]

Almost everybody commutes so it is possible.

How realistic is it commuting with Norwegian to work? and where are people commuting from? Does the LGW contract too have only pass rights on the long haul routes only?

for ex 5+5 or 6+4

Does that mean a typical roster is 5 on 5 off or 6 on 4 off? can anyone post a typical 787 roster?

[Luibar]

Does that mean a typical roster is 5 on 5 off or 6 on 4 off? can anyone post a typical 787 roster?

I think it means you can chose to have 2 blocks of 5 days off or one block of 6 day off plus another of 4 days off.

[yoland]

INKJET
I happily stand corrected but a 3 year renewable CONTRACT on offer isn't exactly enticing. Just my view but i guess nothing is certain in this world except one thing.

[captplaystation]

4 things no ? death, taxes, nurses, and an ex. . . . . . . ;)

[Meester proach]

Just to be clear on this, as it keeps coming up.

It's a three year contract with rishworth, after which it's an open ended contract with OSM.
You have to swap. That's the deal .

[Jetkopite]

Whats the difference between the 2 agencies?? They offer the same deal??

[Meester proach]

No they don't. Pay is better after the switch.

There's whole threads on this

[FlipFlapFlop]

Sort of been waiting for clarification/conformation of new starter FO on this thread.

I think we are saying....

Years 1-3 with Rishworth on contract to Norwegian ? Figures in NOK on PPJN apply.

Year 3 onwards with OSM. Better figures (again on PPJN in Euro and NOK) but still no direct contract with Norwegian.

So never any direct relationship with your actual employer.

The question I have, and I still believe it perfectly reasonable to ask and yet I cannot see it has ever been answered, is if Norwegian take a dislike to you (wear your hat incorrectly, upset a management type, are late to report a couple of times) and they "return" you to Rishworth/OSM, what happens and what recourse do you have under UK employment law?
As far as I can see you are then left in "dispute" with an agency with absolutely no chance of satisfactory resolution. My understanding of agency contracts is that the ultimate employer can return individuals to the agency for any reason they choose and do not have to justify why they no longer want an individual on their flight decks.

And do Rishworth pay UK taxes and National Insurance on behalf of the agency pilots they place with Norwegian or are they self employed?

[Dreamflight1]

Anyone waiting +1,5 months for results of the online assessment?

[ExDubai]

Sooner or later a judge will give you the answer. And that's the problem...