Norwegian B787 - LGW based

[mach85]

Jaxofmarlow

Luckily for you then you dont have to think on behalf of everyone else and wonder why they might be interested in a particular job. Clearly you are a skygod earning 20K£ a month for 500 hrs/yr. Lucky you but we are not all lucky enough to be in your privileged position :yuk:

Now if you could let the man provide us with the information we are looking for then that would be much appreciated.

Regards,

[JaxofMarlow]

Fair enough.
Done my time in sandpits and certainly no skygod, what ever that is. Love your figures - would be happy with that.
If you are still prepared to consider this company after what they did last year and are apparently repeating this then OK. With the worst conditions in the UK I think it is a fair question to ask. And as long as they continue to have a queue at their door I guess they will only go one way.
Didn't think I was stopping anyone from answering your question.
You should check out the other current Norwegian thread. Plenty of others for you to admonish there.

[Monarch Man]

Jax, and therein lies the heart of this issue, one mans rubbish is another's etc etc.
So long as people find this treatment acceptable, then there will be no shortage of takers.
Personally I just don't see it being a viable rate of pay for a new joiner with significant debt, I see it as a way for ex sandpit/Asia/and the occasional legacy driver to come home, or top off the pension.

[JaxofMarlow]

You are probably right Monarch Man. It is very sad. It is unbelievable to me that a company has the balls to continue to advertise for 787 drivers at the same time as laying off dozens of the same already recruited. It has been "explained" that this is because they do not actually want them for this winter and all will be wonderful for all next summer. Oh Yeah.

[fade to grey]

Jax,
This isn't like a large legacy carrier. You don't just apply between fleets and transfer - your probably dealing with different agencies, AOCs etc.
Not to mention the bond and selection.

That short haul don't need 36 73 drivers is not attributable to the long haul operation

[mach85]

Monarch man- I totally agree that the conditions, from what I can read on this thread in particular, are not what you would expect for such a position living in the South of England. This is definitely not in question.
However for myself and most others I would imagine, paying the bills and feeding your family rates higher than fighting this ever declining industry on your own. If i had no job and needed to pay the bills then i wouldn't hesitate to take the job even for the conditions mentioned on this thread.
Everybody's situation is different and hence you can't know the reason why they took the job in the first place.

Cheers

[A and C]

With the tax system in the UK asking about take home pay is likely to get the wrong answer for yourself ( it may be 100% correct for the person answering your question).

You need to know the gross pay and then do a bit of research on the HMR&C website ( income tax ) to enable an accurate answer for your personal tax position.

If you have other income you could slip into the 60% tax band.

[MyIDisthis]

Any truth to the rumours that long haul crew now have 10 days off instead of 8, and might get a 10-15% pay rise?

[fade to grey]

He's just a troll, ignore him.
amd I can tell you we have some great cabin crew trainers and generally a very good spirit de corps.

The pay rise and days off - this is correct. Those who have been here 3 years are now being shown the renewal conditions for when their contracts run out next year.

[MyIDisthis]

Thanks Fade to grey, so this is just for the guys who extend their contract? New joiners get same pay and still just 8 days off per month?

[Gypsy]

My thanks also but I would like to add a further question in addition to that from MyIDisthis.

When the Capts pay went up from roughly £88K to roughly £100K, did those already working get the increased pay or were they held to the conditions they had signed in their original contract?

[fade to grey]

Existing pilots were able to be based at lgw and be paid I pounds at a favourable exchange rate compared with the Actual situation for euros / pounds

The new contract is another slight rise, and will be based on a 65 block HR threshold, if you do more you get more. And days off paid at 1/10 per salary if you work them

[Gypsy]

Once again thanks for the info. So if a new improved contract comes in, will all pilots get it or will it only be for new joiners and existing pilots would have to wait for their contract renewal to get the new deal?

[fade to grey]

That, my friend, is a $64k question I can't answer.
Will they do three years on the old deal first ? I would doubt it.

It represents a monthly increase of £655 on basic.
£83 on per diems

It would seem.

[highfive]

I wonder what the current crop of 787 senior FOs think about Rishworth's unabated drive for DEC's?

I guess FOs sign a contract without any upgrade guarentee?

Will there be enough commands for all, or just the ageing & crusty brigade from EK and BA?

[Avenger]

Why would a company bother upgrading when they can get DECs? given the low cost business model time to command cannot be guaranteed or predicted. A colleague that went in 2012 as a RCA is still an RCA and he had 6000 PIC 737NG. Originally BKK "based" but it would appear the waters got muddied with the transition to LGW base and the plentiful supply of silver surfers..sorry, experienced wide body Captains. Go in with your eyes open and the marriage may not end in divorce..

[cucuotto]

Just had the pleasure of sharing a ( hotel/airport shuttle ) bus with a NLH crew. I read STEXUP now censored comments and I did not like the racial innuendo..still I must admit that the impression was not good. I think Norwegian is trying to prove that any one can be a cabin crew..and the level seems indeed pretty low.

[Kirks gusset]

And exactly what has this to do with NLH pilot recruitment and conditions?

[cucuotto]

How about someone is interested in having an idea of what the environment might be like .. not really interested only on the monetary side of the story ...you know..

[Kirks gusset]

Most of the threads about NLH from people that actually work there are positive, they enjoy "their lot" the major gripe trolled by people NOT actually working there was the money not being compatible with legacy carriers and what may be considered the norm for wide body Captains. Not one single comment related the the cabin crew other than a moronic posting by some troll. The working environment as you put it seems good with the caveats mentioned by others about pay and rosters. This latest attempt to kindle negativity, as all the other ones have now died should also be shot down in flames, it is considered very bad form by " experienced " pilots to mention our colleagues in the cabin in negative terms " experienced" being the operative word..and as for " low levels" I would take a gamble the CC english is superior to many on this forum

[cucuotto]

Kirk..what the hell.. Have you now abandoned THY and taken the paladin role for NLH? Looks like you really have some vested interest in screwing the category. And does it comes to your mind that many might be not mother tongue Irish like you or simply using an error prone handheld device? By the way hoe many other languages can you speak? The impression I got was not positive. Depressed looking flight crew and an heterogeneously esthetically and acoustically unpleasant " lot". May be the trolls are the pumpers here. Remember..McDonalds is about to go bankrupt....��

[highfive]

When are the US D.O.T going to release the results of their investigation?

If it goes against NLH , what might be the consequences be for future expansion, or lack of?

Now i know why the are only using an agency .

[Kirks gusset]

cucuotto, OK back to the thread.. No I didn't leave THY but I was considering it as I only have 10 years left and was thinking of coming closer to extended family in UK. Personally, I would not want to join NLH for reasons which to some may seem pathetic, namely, Cheap hotels and minimum down route time, Loss of Licence and Medical become more important proportional to age. One could argue we are a spoilt protected species, but I think after 20 years you deserve a descent level of support and comfort from any employer. As you remarked, its not just about money..My point was that the guys on the line seem to be happy enough, the management is without conscience. Maybe in the future things will settle down and conditions will improve. Even Ryanair now recognise that stability of pilot employees is fundamental and they are thinking of running their own cadet schemes..i.e make then loyal and green from an early stage! Oh, yes, 3 languages, 4 if you count Gaelic..

[Capt Cynic]

So does anyone know how many RCAs have actually been upgraded to CA ? It would seem counterproductive in the long term for NLH to continue recruiting DECs, as then who would join as a RCA or FO knowing they will keep being bumped down by newcomers going straight to the LHS ?

[Boeing operator]

Another 22 pilots are upgraded this August (that's 10 percent of all pilots).

Until now, more than 30 are already upgraded (or in process). All-in-all, 25 percent of all pilots have been upgraded within the first two years of operation. Having said that, the company has about 70 CPTs not upgrading...

Early next year it's another 20+ upgrades.

Upgrade is only based on seniority for everyone fulfilling the minimum requirements.

The company takes fewer and fewer direct entry RCAs and CPTs. Still they need to 'cause they cannot upgrade fast enough. When training dept. is up to speed, they will hire only FOs.

I believe the above is honest from the company's perspective, is impressive and fair for all.

[fade to grey]

Boeing operator is on the money....
I think we need to keep it in perspective as legacy carrier pilots wait decades for promotion possibilities,
And it's available fairly rapidly at NLH.

[polax52]

Boeing operator is on the money....
I think we need to keep it in perspective as legacy carrier pilots wait decades for promotion possibilities,
And it's available fairly rapidly at NLH.
Yes but it's better to be an F/O with a legacy than a Captain with an LCC.

[Boeing operator]

Yes but it's better to be an F/O with a legacy than a Captain with an LCC.

What ever makes you happy...

[quadspeed]

What ever makes you happy...

If I may offer some perspective from a buddy who's a chef.. He'd rather be cooking in a well established, respectable restaurant with demanding customers than doing (exactly) the same thing at some run down family joint with 2-for-1 chicken wings and tequila happy hour.

While the job once the flight deck door closes remains the same regardless of tail markings, there is a lot to be said for being associated with a respectable airline, brand and image. There may well be an elephant in the room regarding this, but many of us take pride in our company, customers and reputation.

Hence many (most?) will prefer FO at a legacy to a command at a LCC.

[Boeing operator]

@quadspeed

Exactly, whatever makes everyone happy.

However, what you're also saying is that some prefer flying as a CPT in a LCC rather than as FO in a legacy carrier. I am one of them. For me, the comparison is between Norwegian long haul and SAS since I live in Scandinavia. I would not change to a FO position with SAS :=

[Chesty Morgan]

Whereas I take pride in what I do and it doesn't matter what colour the fin is.

I'm not convinced that the reputation of your airline, whoever it is, rubs off on you as much as you like to think.

[quadspeed]

I would not change to a FO position with SAS

Completely understandable. Our choices are driven by motivation, and motivation varies Some like status. Some like being at home every night. Some like the size of their jet. And some just need to get the bills paid.

[quadspeed]

I'm not convinced that the reputation of your airline, whoever it is, rubs off on you as much as you like to think

Maybe not. But my passengers certainly believe they are getting something more than just a nice bottle of Merlot for that first class ticket. And perception goes a long way my friend.

[Chesty Morgan]

Yes, but that's different to you, as a pilot, being associated with whichever airline.

[quadspeed]

es, but that's different to you, as a pilot, being associated with whichever airline.

In my humble opinion, customers who pay 30,000 usd for a ticket come to expect something resembling the Company's profile also from the staff.. maybe especially from the flight deck crew. For some, being held to a perceived high standard is important. You may be surprised how many retired ex Legacy Captains find it hard to adjust to being just another Joe Blow. And that is all about you, the pilot.

[Chesty Morgan]

You are just another Joe Blow, doesn't matter a jot who you work for.

If one thinks that one isn't then one has an ego problem.

[quadspeed]

You are just another Joe Blow, doesn't matter a jot who you work for.

If one thinks that one isn't then one has an ego problem.

I"m sorry but you failed to get my point. We were discussing what motivates people. What your opinion is on someone else's motivation is irrelevant to the discussion.

[Chesty Morgan]

Huh? Discussing what motivates people but opinions on it are irrelevant. There's no discussion then is there!

[Sean Dillon]

And when have you experienced 'quality' Chesty?! 3 years only on Boeings in that 'Gutter' of the North - when you've been part of something special, a two-way employer and rewarded well, you'll get what Quadspeed is saying.

Don't forget to say 'Have a great Holiday'!

[quadspeed]

All I'm saying is that there is more to employment than just driving the thing.

Walking through the lounge and down the jet bridge I for one feel a part of something larger. From the beds in first class to the wine selection in business, our product is of a high standard and we price it accordingly. Our customers certainly appreciate our product , and I'm proud to be a part. I speak to our customers with pride in our airline, and know that they expect nothing less than excellence in return for their money.

Whatever way you choose to look at it, it feels good to be a part of it and I for one would rather sit there with 3 stripes than in some flying circus with four.

And if choosing otherwise, then I think we can discuss your mention of who's ego needs checking.

[Chesty Morgan]

Sean, been there done that and I'm not likely to spread my entire career history over pprune just for you. I'm now more than happy with my current choice thanks.

Taking you as an example - even now you're a bright eyed new boy at BA you're still the same noob as always.

By the way your use of single quotation marks to highlight your opinion is wrong.

You can take your vitriolic attitude and shove it.

[Chesty Morgan]

OMG quad speed, you've swallowed the huggy fluffy stuff.

Is your definition of excellence dropping engine parts all over North London. :D

[fade to grey]

It is of course, horses for courses.
But I've gotta say my roster is sweet. My leave is allocated. 10 days off a month contracted from November.

I don't have any major complaints

[highfive]

Hows that € rate coming along, £1 =€1.45 ?

10 days off per month, on long haul?

Good grief. But no " major" complaints so alls well 😜

[quadspeed]

OMG quad speed, you've swallowed the huggy fluffy stuff.

Is your definition of excellence dropping engine parts all over North London. :D

Perception, dear friend. Perception.

[Chesty Morgan]

Yeah, I know, but who's perception of who?

[captplaystation]

fade to grey "10 days off a month contracted from November." is an improvement from the "office workers" minimum of 8 you have had in your contract up to now, but, doesn't it cheese you off that the 737 drivers have 12 ? shome mistake shurely ? long haul used to be attractive for, amongst other things, more time off. . . .where did it all go wrong ?

[quadspeed]

Yeah, I know, but who's perception of who?

Oh, that's easy dear chap . The customers perception of who is flying their airplane.

I thought I made that clear. But not to you it seems.

The bottom line is that some pilots like to be associated with a particular brand. And everything that goes with that.

As for 'most', then the best we can do is look at the numbers going from legacy to lcc, or the other way around. And after that, just let the numbers speak for themselves. I've done both, believe me, and so has most of my colleagues.

[TowerDog]

. The bottom line is that some pilots like to be associated with a particular brand. And everything that goes with that.



Since everybody asked my opinion:
Been there, done that: Flying left seat on wide bodies for small carriers, pax and cargo.
Also flown right seat for big firms, worlds largest nowadays, 15,000 pilots.
Had more fun doing the smaller airlines, big fish in a small pond and all that.
Working for huge airline gets a bit dull after a while, everything is canned and too much Standardization. During a recent simulator check they had changed the procedures and call-outs. Instead of calling for speed, it was now speeds.
The instructor kept hissing in my ear speedsss, not speed, confused me while trying to climb out on one engine after a V-1 cut. I flew the jet fine and put it back on the ground fine, but got dinged for the speeds, or speed call, still not sure what the problem was.
Don't need the status and recongnition of a major airline, but the benefits are great.
That being said, more work, less pay with a smaller outfit, but more fun. More pay, less work with a big one.
Would like to have my cake and it eat too.
Or just retire early, been doing this too much anyways.
Carry on chaps, without me..

[fade to grey]

Capt,
Yes that's correct, short haul do get more and that is a bone of contention.

Euro rate is of no interest to me, paid in pounds now at a favourable rate.

[Chesty Morgan]

Oh, that's easy dear chap . The customers perception of who is flying their airplane.

I thought I made that clear. But not to you it seems.

The bottom line is that some pilots like to be associated with a particular brand. And everything that goes with that.

As for 'most', then the best we can do is look at the numbers going from legacy to lcc, or the other way around. And after that, just let the numbers speak for themselves. I've done both, believe me, and so has most of my colleagues.

How patently sad. Luckily I don't need that kind of affirmation to make my life satisfying.

[quadspeed]

How patently sad. Luckily I don't need that kind of affirmation to make my life satisfying.

I think that's wonderful and I wish you nothing but the best. If everybody wanted to fly legacy there would be nobody to haul sh1tfaced Scousers to ibiza for the weekend.

Different strokes for different folks. Pay me enough and I'll even haul rubber dogsh1t out of Hong Kong. Oh wait. I already do that.

[quadspeed]

Don't need the status and recongnition of a major airline, but the benefits are great.

And I agree with you TD that the status and recognition that comes with a major airline doesn't itself put food on the table or keep the neighbor out of my bed half the month.

But it does provide me with first class travel, a decent retirement cushion and a standard of operation that goes beyond the regulated minimums. I fly with colleagues who have chosen to be here as opposed to wishing they were somewhere else. The flying doesn't leave much to the imagination and the greens take me from the runway to the gate to the bed, but at the end of the day I'm left with enough time and cash to jump in the two seater parked in a hangar a short drive away if I ever feel the need.

You've tried both worlds and creds for choosing the glove that fits the hand. I know guys who have gone from legacy to lcc at their own choosing and never looked back. But let's be honest about it; they're the exception rather than the rule.

[Zapper27]

Gents,

I think we get a litte of Topic here. It is so simple, Not all of US have the choice.

There Are Pilots Out their, that have been employed with major carriers for a Long Time (Sabena for Example). Since the Company went bust, I know a guy who went through 7 insolvencies! So what, Are they worse pilots? of course Not!
but they just don't have the choice! What about if you have worked As a Cpt for Ten years and your Company goes titts up? You have nearly no Chance with the Major Airlines in Europe, it is more then great, that companies like Norwegian give you the Chance! Happy for everybody, who is in a Lucky Position, high seniority with a Legacy, or Major Airline, great, but Not everybody can choose, don't forget this!

I Miss some airmenship every now and then in this Forum!

happy Landings, to all of you

[zeddb]

Zapper,

You are barking up the wrong tree here mate. In the UK, anyone not in the upper echelons of a legacy seniority list is considered a lesser being and if they suffer redundancy, then it is exactly what they deserve for not being one of the chosen ones. Nothing to do with luck of course, the blessed ones were individually chosen by god to be superior to everyone else and it is their sacred duty to rub our noses in it.

You sentiments are appreciated and mirror my own.

Merci and bon chance.

[fade to grey]

If you want to join a legacy carrier then go do it, but make sure you are young.

We had guys join big airways from my last outfit on the clapped out 767 . As they know it's 400 years to a shot at command, big airways tries to keep them interested by coming up with courses for them with names such as ' diversity in the cockpit with applied shamanism ' or some such stuff.
Not only that their rosters are sh.....not good, as there are 120,000 pilots above them on the seniority list.

Can't see the attraction if you're over 30. But then again I never had much patience .

[Zapper27]

Gents,

Anybody nows the improvement on the Pay for RCA and FO's?

I guess the number that Fade to Grey poseted earlier was for CPT's!?

Cheers

[skyship007]

I was interested in this airline myself, BUT it's nuts to pay 30K up front to a company that might go bust. If they failed in a big way you could kiss that deposit goodbye.
I bet their financial chaps say it's in a secure but little known bank, that then turns out to be owned by guess who, so goes bust at the same time as the airline.

I've written a letter to the EASA medical folks saying that any new co-pilot that pays up front for a type rating should fail a class 1 medical on the grounds of insanity!

[fade to grey]

Really, do some research before you start talking sh.....rubbish .

The bank involved is one of the largest in the world .
It's not some conspiracy between the banks, Rishworth and aliens .

[Chesty Morgan]

So was the Royal Bank of Scotland.

[The Crew]

Fade, we appreciate your opinions on your experience of Norwegian. Even though you had little choice with your decision.

I don't share your vitriol agains being in BA, it was the place to be and may well still be.As conditions of service in BA have fallen, those offered by the rest have plummeted. Except in Asia.

Interestingly, we never hear of Virgin pilots leaving. They must now be considered No.1 :D

[fade to grey]

No vitriol.
I'm merely giving my impression of why it wouldn't be of interest . If your under 30 I imagine it would be.

I agree Virgin pilots don't seem to be unhappy with their lot

[fade to grey]

And of course , you always have a choice.
Especially when you are dealing with a large chunk of your own money

[Direct Bondi]

fade to grey quote:

"The bank involved is one of the largest in the world. It's not some conspiracy between the banks and Rishworth"

It is implausible in the extreme to suggest the above condition makes the Norwegian up-front payment scheme both ethical and legitimate, even less so due to the involvement of New Zealand based Rishworth, via their Sweden office and Crawley UK, broom cupboard affiliate.

[skyship007]

Direct Bondi has hit the nail on the head, as the whole situation is a tad Iffy, both in contract and financial terms.

The Rishworth sales dept fan fails to understand that some wanabees borrow money against their parents house, so if things don't work out as regards upfront or type rating bonds, they might all finish up on the street.
Many of them are in enough financial trouble already, without giving away more of their family fortune!

[fade to grey]

We are getting nowhere here.

/ I merely pointed out there is no shady deal between rishworth and a bank owned by rishworth . This is incorrect and into the realms of conspiracy theory . I offer no opinion on the ethics or anything else of the deal.

/ wannabes and their parents will not be on the street due to securing loans on their houses. We don't take wannabes, you need to be an experienced Boeing pilot ( or Airbus ) to go on the 787.

/ I'm not trying to persuade people to join , I don't care either way. I only posted here to r redress some of the bull being spoken as I am party to the actual reality.

[Direct Bondi]

The actual reality is a circumvention and misrepresentation scheme.

The Norwegian Airline Group recruits, interviews, hires, determines the base, roster, days off, vacation, promotion opportunities, layoffs and may also terminate pilots and cabin crew. By EU law definition, Norwegian is the employer.

Pilots and cabin crew working for Norwegian in the UK are not working under the UK Employment Act 2008. As such, they have no claim whatsoever against Norwegian in any employment dispute. Nor do they have the right to union representation or collective agreement with Norwegian.

Pilots and cabin crew in the UK employed by an agency, are working under the Agency Workers Regulations 2010. Although Norwegian may have misrepresented itself as the "employer" on crew airport ID badges and US visa applications.

Since the March 31, 2008 effective date of the EU US Open-Skies Agreement, 57 EU carriers have applied and been granted US Permits. The average time between application and granting the requests was 55 days. After 15 months, the longest time of any application, the DOT is no closer to granting NAI its permit. Serious concerns remain regarding Norwegian's circumvention of employment rights and principles.

Several weeks ago Kjos boasted in the Norway press that he did not need the US Permit - link:
- Vi kan fly til krampa tar oss med de tillatelsene vi har - DN.no (http://www.dn.no/nyheter/naringsliv/2015/04/29/1100/Norwegian/-vi-kan-fly-til-krampa-tar-oss-med-de-tillatelsene-vi-har)
* copy and paste to Google Translate

More recently, Kjos has written a begging letter to DOT Secretary Foxx pleading for the US Permit - link:
Kjos frir til Obama for å få trafikkrettigheter i USA - Aftenposten (http://www.aftenposten.no/okonomi/Kjos-frir-til-Obama-for-a-fa-trafikkrettigheter-i-USA-8042155.html)

In reply to the Kjos letter the Secretary of the European Transport Workers Union, Francos Ballastero, stated:

"In an attempt to pursue the policy stated in the employment agreement, the Spain based pilots have organized themselves under SEPLA, the Spanish pilots union, and have made repeated attempts to engage Norwegian or representatives of Norwegian, for the purposes of constructive talks. For the past six months these repeated attempts have been completely ignored by Norwegian. As a reply to these efforts made by the pilot representatives, Norwegian has stated it does not have any pilots in Spain, but an agency called OSM does"

Article 17 of the current US-EU Air Transport Agreement, Open-Skies, states: "The opportunites created by the Agreemnt are not intended to undermine the labor standards or the labor related rights and principles contained in the Parties respective laws"

Norwegian categorically does not meet the prerequisite requirement of Article 17. A US Permit cannot be granted.

[Avenger]

Aren't all the NLH crew now UK based? and if so, they will be subject to UK agency employment laws , in this respect, I fail to see what the 737 Pilots based in Spain have to do with the NLH DOT application, Incidentally, the Spanish are no blueprint for labour relations given their record of airline strikes and ATC strikes.. which brings me to the next point, if they are so unhappy in Spain, why don't they strike as usual.. answers on a postcard!

[Direct Bondi]

Agency pilots and cabin crew have no labor rights nor labor principles with their real employer, Norwegian - para 2 above (e.g. union representation and collective agreement).
If the Spanish agency pilots were to strike against Norwegian they could be summarily terminated without recourse. In a "direct employment relationship" striking pilots cannot be terminated without due process (recall the 600 directly employed pilots on strike in March). In the UK the difference between the Employment Act and the Agency Workers Regulations - right to strike vs immediate dismissal.
Kjos does not mind if agency pilots join one or ten unions, he has no obligation to communicate or even acknowledge any agency union, as evidenced by SEPLA's failed attempts.
The Kjos labor scheme circumvents the prerequisites of Article 17. Additionally, Kjos has stated in his application to the US DoT that agency crew are offered the same degree of job protection, terms and conditions as crew hired directly by Norwegian - they are not.

[polax52]

Avenger- the right to strike is a Human right in all western democracies. Circumventing the right to strike is a privalage restricted to Authoritarian states. Europe is currently going through a transitional phase which allows loopholes to emerge for unscrupulous employers to exploit. Fortunately the U.S. government are preventing this exploitation from being a commercial advantage.

[Avenger]

Polax, Bondi, I am not talking about the right to strike or instant dismissal for industrial action or anything remotely connected to that topic. My comments, in specific connection to the NLH thread are simply this: The vast majority of the crews seem happy with their lot, the LGW LH crews are not up in arms over pay and working conditions, that privilege seems to be reserved for observers that don't even work for the company, are vocal about never wanting to work for the company and seem to take the opinion that if they don't want to work there, no one else should either..The thread has been contaminated by reference to the Spanish operations and every other aspect of NAS working conditions, which has absolutely nothing to do with the original topic. The concept of obtaining a commercial advantage by effectively having " slave labour" is not supported by the positive attitude displayed by the workforce themselves, and to be honest, is starting to smell of sour grapes. The US DOT are past masters of putting fingers in everyone else's pies and perhaps should exercise some of the "freedoms" they seek so hard to protect..

The crux:

They and the U.S. airline-pilots union
accuse Norwegian of seeking to set up a low-wage operation with foreign crews that will create unfair competition. ( Nonsense, of course the crews are "foreign" all European airlines operate with a mix of crew, people have the basic human rights to live in their own country.)

The salaries and benefits of pilots in the Irish long-haul subsidiary are “substantially inferior” to those of its Norwegian-based pilots, ALPA claimed.( Really! not according to the published pay scales seen here and given the cost of living index UK vs Norway http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_countries_result.jsp?country1=Norway&country2=United+Kingdom)

A joint filing from American, Delta and United likewise argues
Norwegian’s application to operate as an Irish carrier is merely “a flag of convenience. to avoid Norway’s labor laws and lower labor costs … thus giving (Norwegian) a competitive advantage on transatlantic routes in direct competition with U.S. carriers.” What has Norways labour laws got to do with British based pilots?

[polax52]

Nice post Avenger but employing Pilots through agencies when they are clearly employed by one employer in a full time job is done unfairly and for a reason. The reason is to circumvent basic western human rights. Honestly it could not be more simple.

Even David Cameron, a Thatcherite conservative has spoken very vocally and clearly against this type of employment. Meeting DOT requirements is so easy.

[Direct Bondi]

Avenger:

The LGW 787 labor model and Spanish 737 labor model are identical, viz: the exclusive use of agency employed staff to circumvent labor rights and labor principles by the real employer, Norwegian.

It is entirely irrelevant if the vast majority of pilots are content (doubtful). The Kjos labor model does not comply with Article 17 - period. Both the EU and US negotiated and signed the Open-Skies Agreement.

The crux of the problem is that Kjos expects everyone to pander to him. The U.S. is having none of it.

In his June 1, 2015, letter to the DoT, Kjos states:

"It has been and will continue to be our firm policy to offer all pilots and cabin crew employed through agencies the opportunity to transfer their employment to a company in the Norwegian Group at the end of a transitional period"

The Kjos letter, Exhibit 1, can be viewed at the following link: Regulations.gov (http://www.regulations.gov/#!documentDetail;D=DOT-OST-2013-0204-0203) (ref: DOT-OST-2013-0204-0203, view NAI Motion, pdf attachment)

What plans are in place for the LGW 787 agency pilots and cabin crew to transfer their employment to a company in the Norwegian Group and when?

[furbpilot]

I just wonder how can the Gulf carrier operate to the US as those countries don't even contemplate basic human rights. Not defending NLH just trying to understand how is possible Emirates is not competing unfairly...

[essexboy]

furbpilot. Same as every u.s. policy. How much oil do you have?

[captplaystation]

Don't know if that is it entirely . . . . Norway has some of that stuff too if I remember.

[Boeing operator]

It seems like some people here like to direct the discussion into other areas than terms and endearment. To me it is a little surprising that they put so much energy into Norwegian under this section of PPRuNe when they clearly are not interested in the job.

Anyways, long haul is recruiting a lot at the moment. A friend of mine passed a couple of weeks ago. They need 100 pilots for next year. Conditions are improving. A new airline (as the long haul part of Norwegian should be considered) doesn't give the best market conditions from day one. But since they started pay has increased for LGW based pilots, and will increase even more after three years of service. Days off will increase from November, and when this new company learn how to optimize the roster it will increase more.

But no, no, no (to some of you out there that will quote this post and attack it), the conditions are not the best. They are perhaps not good in most pilots' mind. But they are improving. In two years a lot has happened, and it will continue. Either you believe it will or you don't.

[quadspeed]

But no, no, no (to some of you out there that will quote this post and attack it), the conditions are not the best. They are perhaps not good in most pilots' mind. But they are improving. In two years a lot has happened, and it will continue. Either you believe it will or you don't.

The crux of the matter is that by individuals accepting ever lower conditions at outfits such as NLH, *everyone* else eventually gets dragged down to the same unsustainable level. You say your conditions are improving, but as soon as they do some other starstruck wannabe comes along and undercuts you. Suddenly you've become expensive and looking for work.

Those of us who've been doing this a few decades know the price to be paid for long haul. Seeing your children grow up while you're watching reruns at 3am in some hotel half a world away, never being fully awake nor fully asleep. And we've fought a long fight for adequate compensation.

I'm not going to get into the other lcc issues; let the customers decide on those . But when you're threatening every other long haul colleagues income and few precious remaining days at home, it becomes a matter which certainly has its rightful place on these boards.

You're selling yourself way below what you're worth, and undermining everyone else in the process. Your conditions will not improve, everyone else's will deteriorate as you've just lowered the bar.

It's a battle we all should be fighting together as professional pilots. I'm at a loss how I can explain this any better and suspect you're ignoring the real issue.

[captplaystation]

quadspeed, IMHO your post is right on the money & NLH crew are guilty of what I (as an ex FR pilot ) was party to in the short haul world. . . . accepting less than my worth.

I don't have a solution, as sometimes at the time it is the best gig in town (or should I say the least onerous ) & certainly we all have bills to pay, & may not have the luxury of saying "no thanks" & taking our skills elsewhere.

What is indisputable however is that NLH has set the bar lower than ever for long-haul, of that point there can be no dissenting views worth listening to.

[Iver]

This thread is turning into a real soap opera... How about people NOT apply if you are not interested in the contract, schedule, etc.? Last time I checked applying to NLH was not compulsory...


There are other operators out there with better contracts - go apply if you meet their minimums and have contacts. Ryanair and Easy are hiring...

[JaxofMarlow]

I think it is fair to say Iver that those being critical of NLH in the main have not applied and are well aware of what else is available. That does not mean their comments are not valid as when one bar gets lowered the tendency is for others to follow.

[Alloy]

I totally agree with Quadspeed's comments and also feel much the same has already happened in the short haul market of Europe. Captplaystation has referred to the damage that FR and the likes have done as regards pilot's t&cs by pilots underselling themselves.

[BWSBoy6]

I was on the 787 on Tuesday from LGW to FLL. :) Lovely guys running the show, steered us round some chop, got us to Florida safely. Happy customer. :ok:

Just wanted to put in a positive note. My lad training in Jerez at the moment has his eye on a future with Norwegian too.

Mrs Bwsboy

[Wave off]

The crux of the matter is that by individuals accepting ever lower conditions at outfits such as NLH, *everyone* else eventually gets dragged down to the same unsustainable level. You say your conditions are improving, but as soon as they do some other starstruck wannabe comes along and undercuts you. Suddenly you've become expensive and looking for work.

Those of us who've been doing this a few decades know the price to be paid for long haul. Seeing your children grow up while you're watching reruns at 3am in some hotel half a world away, never being fully awake nor fully asleep. And we've fought a long fight for adequate compensation.

I'm not going to get into the other lcc issues; let the customers decide on those . But when you're threatening every other long haul colleagues income and few precious remaining days at home, it becomes a matter which certainly has its rightful place on these boards.

You're selling yourself way below what you're worth, and undermining everyone else in the process. Your conditions will not improve, everyone else's will deteriorate as you've just lowered the bar.

It's a battle we all should be fighting together as professional pilots. I'm at a loss how I can explain this any better and suspect you're ignoring the real issue.

100.5% right.

[TowerDog]

There has always been long haul pilots accepting jobs for less money than "Major Airline" LH pilots, ATA and Evergreen comes to mind among others.
Then again, Major LH pilots has also accepted huge pay cuts to stay employed,
Pan Am and TWA for example. :sad:

[Direct Bondi]

Its not just about the money. If money were the only issue Norwegian would have received a U.S. Foreign Air Carrier Permit months ago.

Although pilots flying for ATA, Evergreen, Pan Am and TWA all may have accepted lower pay, the fact remains they were directly employed by the respective airline with all associated direct employment labor rights and labor principles with the respective airline. As opposed to Norwegian's pilots, rented from a service provider/agency like cleaning staff, with no direct employment labor rights nor labor principles with Norwegian whatsoever.

To add insult to the injury of being a rented pilot, Kjos has declared in his letter to the DoT below, that his exclusive use of agency pilots is only for a "transitional period", after which pilots are offered to "transfer their employment" to a company in the Norwegian group.

Perhaps a LGW based, Norwegian 787 agency pilot, could provide details of what plans are in place to transfer their agency employment to direct employment with Norwegian ?


____________________________________________________________
In his June 1, 2015, letter to the DoT, Kjos states:

"It has been and will continue to be our firm policy to offer all pilots and cabin crew employed through agencies the opportunity to transfer their employment to a company in the Norwegian Group at the end of a transitional period"

The Kjos letter, Exhibit 1, can be viewed at the following link: Regulations.gov (http://www.regulations.gov/#!documentDetail;D=DOT-OST-2013-0204-0203) (ref: DOT-OST-2013-0204-0203, view NAI Motion, pdf attachment)

[SR71]

I find it hard to know whether to trust Kjos or not....

Would any Finnish Norwegian pilots care to comment as they were the litmus test of Kjos claim... Are Finnish Norwegian pilots employed by OSM? Did their contract improve significantly when subsequently employed by Norwegian Finland (if indeed they are employed by a local Norwegian franchise)?

[kungfu panda]

The crux of the matter is that by individuals accepting ever lower conditions at outfits such as NLH, *everyone* else eventually gets dragged down to the same unsustainable level. You say your conditions are improving, but as soon as they do some other starstruck wannabe comes along and undercuts you. Suddenly you've become expensive and looking for work.

Those of us who've been doing this a few decades know the price to be paid for long haul. Seeing your children grow up while you're watching reruns at 3am in some hotel half a world away, never being fully awake nor fully asleep. And we've fought a long fight for adequate compensation.

I'm not going to get into the other lcc issues; let the customers decide on those . But when you're threatening every other long haul colleagues income and few precious remaining days at home, it becomes a matter which certainly has its rightful place on these boards.

You're selling yourself way below what you're worth, and undermining everyone else in the process. Your conditions will not improve, everyone else's will deteriorate as you've just lowered the bar.

It's a battle we all should be fighting together as professional pilots. I'm at a loss how I can explain this any better and suspect you're ignoring the real issue.

That message needs to be repeated over and over. Nobody is doing themselves or anybody else any justice by accepting work with an outfit such as NLH. Quite rightfully guys outside of NLH need to make this clear.

[fade to grey]

Of course !
I should really go on the dole to protect your T&Cs, what was I thinking ?

Maybe I'll even move to Shenzhen ......

[highfive]

Rishworth still pushing the NLH jobs. This means that either
1) The current crop of candidates interviewed have fallen short of the mark
2) Those interviewed were so horrified that the T"s n C"s were no better than stipulated on Pprune, and ran off back to the desert.
3) They are just fishing.

Perhaps the pool of unemployed wannabes is drying up, and they have to deal with pilots who are able to make a choice. And that choice is ...

[FlyingOfficerKite]

Perhaps the pool of unemployed wannabes is drying up

... and maybe there will be a lower number of available 'starstruck wannabes' in the future - Ts&Cs reducing making a career as a pilot less attractive, widening gap between supply and demand?

If that is the case then Ts&Cs may, in the long-run, improve!?

[captplaystation]

"If that is the case then Ts&Cs may, in the long-run, improve!?"


Yep, and I also believe in the tooth fairy & father Christmas. . . . . Oh well, we can live in hope. :rolleyes:


"Hope for the best, prepare for the worst" would be my advice to anyone starting a career in this industry.

[porkflyer]

It's just up to anyone of you.

[quadspeed]

"Hope for the best, prepare for the worst" would be my advice to anyone starting a career in this industry.

Anyone considering a career at the pointy end should automatically be disqualified due to lack of judgement.

In the words of a recent article on automation;

"A senior executive at Airbus mentioned to me that in Britain and the United States the elites do not become airline pilots, whereas in France, as in less developed countries, they still do."

http://www.vanityfair.com/news/business/2014/10/air-france-flight-447-crash

[slr737]

Rishworth still pushing the NLH jobs. This means that either
1) The current crop of candidates interviewed have fallen short of the mark
2) Those interviewed were so horrified that the T"s n C"s were no better than stipulated on PPRuNe, and ran off back to the desert.
3) They are just fishing.

Perhaps the pool of unemployed wannabes is drying up, and they have to deal with pilots who are able to make a choice. And that choice is ...

Unfortunately I can tell you there was quite a lot of candidate at the NLH interview happening in Oslo this last few days... They are running the sim 8 hours per day for the last 3 days...

[tripulante521]

Too bad they don't pay for the hotel in Oslo anymore for the screening and if their flights are full you have to take care of your travel expenses as well ....they are becoming another ultra low cost airline .
This are the results of a Norwegian LH Pilots Survey:
80% considers the current terms and conditions unsatisfactory.
72% considers Norwegian HR services unsatisfactory.
47% is looking for another job.
54% would not recommend Norwegian to friends.
61% considers Norwegian not a long term airline.
54% says they are unsure or not fully aware of their tax situation and applicable taxation liabilities.

[The Crew]

... and 99%, when polled, said they wont be leaving for your sh1tty job in Asia or the desert :) :)

[TowerDog]

Kjos is a Lorenzo wanna-be.
Grow and sell cheap tickets at any cost.
He forgot his roots and his free flight training to become a military pilot without worrying about pay, benefits or job security: All taken care of by the Government, and my tax money. :sad:
Now he makes sure newbies has to pay for their own rating, then he kicks 'em back on the street but still demands payback for the training.
Lorenzo would be proud.:rolleyes:

[Direct Bondi]

If we are talking percentages..........

100% of Norwegian's LGW based 787 pilots are still employed with an agency rather than directly employed with Norwegian.

Does this fact make Kjos a 100% liar ?
___________________________________________________________
In his June 1, 2015, letter to the DoT, Kjos states:

"It has been and will continue to be our firm policy to offer all pilots and cabin crew employed through agencies the opportunity to transfer their employment to a company in the Norwegian Group at the end of a transitional period"

The Kjos letter, Exhibit 1, can be viewed at the following link: Regulations.gov (http://www.regulations.gov/#!documentDetail;D=DOT-OST-2013-0204-0203) (ref: DOT-OST-2013-0204-0203, view NAI Motion, pdf attachment)
___________________________________________________________

Kjos takes strike revenge by terminating a union delegate

Dagbladet Norway News reports that a union delegate active during the March strike has been terminated by Norwegian.
Both the NPU and PARAT are 100% behind the pilot and if necessary will take the matter to court.
A Norwegian manager stated they "respect unions and have a good relationship with unions since beginning in 2002".
During the strike Norwegian separated the Scandinavian division into three companies without any union consultation whatsoever. Norwegian continues to use agencies to supply its pilots and cabin crew, thereby preventing any union representation or collective agreement directly with Norwegian.
News Link: Norwegian har sparket hovedverneombudet under streiken - nyheter - Dagbladet.no (http://www.dagbladet.no/2015/08/07/nyheter/norwegian/luftfart/40523738/)
*copy and paste to Google Translate

[captplaystation]

DB, I see you were "deleted", glad to see you posted again. . . . Agendas Agendas, seems for pprune NAS has become the "new Ryanair" (or E****d? )

People should read/translate/weep after perusing the link at the bottom of your post . . . . . amazing how contacting the local CAA (after being ignored by your employer) to notify safety concerns should A - come to the attention of your employer, & B-result in your termination . . . . strange that, or maybe not in Norbabwe.

[Tahitimax]

Has anyone got a reply from the online tests last May yet ?
When are the interview going to be ?

[highfive]

Ive not heard. Im Not rated and to be honest have lost all interest.
Anecdotal evidence indicates that most guys they want have been interviewed.
Bizarrely they are still constantly advertising. Sounds like Korean !

[Direct Bondi]

Apparently, Norwegian's communications manager isn't having much of a summer break:

"Norwegian's London base slaughtered in shock report from CAA"

says Dagbladet Norway news, August 20 - Link: Norwegians London-base slaktet i sjokkrapport fra Luftfartstilsynet - nyheter - Dagbladet.no (http://www.dagbladet.no/2015/08/20/nyheter/lufttfart/norwegian/arbeidsliv/40666946/)

The report states the LGW base has been without any leadership and has only 30 square meters of office space for use by 158 staff.

Norwegian re-registered six of its 787's from Ireland to Norway to increase its US flights under Norway's established traffic rights agreement. However;

"Norwegian registered aircraft are considered Norwegian territory. Foreign crew (Thai/US) require resident work permit"

says lawyer for Norwegian Cockpit Association, reports Dagbladet Norway news, August 18 -Link: LO-forbund mener Norwegian flyr ulovlig - nyheter - Dagbladet.no (http://www.dagbladet.no/2015/08/18/nyheter/lufttransport/fly/norwegian/lo/40651033/)

Any news of 787 agency pilots being offered the Kjos promise of direct employment with Norwegian ?

[fade to grey]

Bondi,
Can you not get a hobby or something ? Your constant NLH knocking is getting on my nerves.

Of course, any airline with an office, doesn't have room to accommodate all their pilots and cabin crew at once, because they are never there at once are they ?

What axe do you have to grind ? Or have you really nothing better to do ?

[Direct Bondi]

fade,
Getting on your particular nerves is my hobby (mission accomplished).

If you translate and read the article, the report states Norwegian operates three independent airlines from the same 30 square meter office space; NAS, NLH and NAI. This does not comply with AOC regulations - but then, not complying does not seem to worry Kjos or his cronies.

[Greaserman]

The crew room for 158 crew members are for 2 flights a day and for the 787 operation only. The 737 and 787 crew have separate crew rooms in LGW.

[Direct Bondi]

Greaser,
"Wrong again"........oh really ?

Why not contact the CAA investigating official, then we will see who is wrong and who is right. The public domain contact details are:

Mr. Frode Lenning, Section Manager, CAA Norway - Email: [email protected] Telephone: + 47 95215899

In the link above, Dagbladet Norway news reports:

"CAA Inspection of Norwegian's LGW base on 28 May this year ended with harsh criticism. So bad were the conditions that the authority came to the following conclusion - CAA considering the base debarred"

"Since this is by definition two different airlines under two different authorities, NAS and NAI must have two independent bases for business. This requirement has been unfulfilled. IAA does not accept a common base"

But what positive news of any 787 agency pilots being offered the Kjos promise of direct employment with Norwegian ?

[Avenger]

Bondi.. there is a difference between " bases" and "offices". The IAA require that the facilities and resources to support the AOC are " in place" does not mean all in the same place, many airlines have remote locations for operational support and just a small crew room to collect and print off OFPs etc etc. As far as I can see there is no such legislation stating different airlines can't share the same facilities. Apart from you, who doesn't actually work for NLH I don't see anyone else complaining on such a trivial level. What's your beef with this Company.. the Devil makes work for idle hands I think!

[Direct Bondi]

Avenger:
"As far as I can see there is no such legislation stating different airlines can't share the same facilities"

Translate and read the report of the CAA inspection - Link: Norwegians London-base slaktet i sjokkrapport fra Luftfartstilsynet - nyheter - Dagbladet.no (http://www.dagbladet.no/2015/08/20/nyheter/lufttfart/norwegian/arbeidsliv/40666946/)

If you disagree, I suggest you contact the inspecting officer, Mr. Frode Lenning, Section Manager, CAA Norway: - Email: [email protected] Telephone: + 47 95215899.

As for idle hands, I hope this is not your new agenda.

I assume no 787 agency pilot, has so far been offered the Kjos promised, direct employment with Norwegian. Anyone know why ?

[captplaystation]

Cos he's a . . . kin liar ? ? :rolleyes: just a guess . . . . .

[POT NOODLE HORN]

So boring ......

[Avenger]

Bondi, the "report" to which you refer appears to be a tabloid selective write up and is hardly condemning evidence, anyway, it is somewhat irrelevant as the UK AOC is all but complete, Gatwick Gossip says Norwegian are about to sign for new offices and they are now advertising for 787 CP to "support the New AOC". The training and admin for 737 is moving to Dublin and they are seeking trainers and managers there also. The Norway CAA has a courtesy agreement with the UK and IAA and had its knuckles wrapped last year for being 2 months late in applying for oversight extensions, so it can hardly poke the finger! The LH crews we meet, whatever their reasons for joining, seem content and we should support their choices rather than try and bring the cards crumbling down,,give up your beef!

[Direct Bondi]

An informative response. However, you conveniently do not respond to my question; How many agency pilots have so far been transferred to direct employment with Norwegian, as promised by Kjos in his letter to the U.S. DoT on June 1st, this year ?

"It has been and will continue to be our firm policy to offer all pilots and cabin crew employed through agencies the opportunity to transfer their employment to a company in the Norwegian Group at the end of a transitional period"

The Kjos letter, Exhibit 1, can be viewed at the following link: Regulations.gov (http://www.regulations.gov/#!documentDetail;D=DOT-OST-2013-0204-0203) (ref: DOT-OST-2013-0204-0203, pdf attachment)

I note from the BALPA website that Norwegian pilots are now part of a 9,000 strong family. The word 'strong' has never been so misplaced.

"The British Airline Pilots Association (BALPA) has announced that pilots from West Atlantic Airlines and Norwegian Air Shuttle have decided to be represented at work and at a national and international level by the professional association for the UK pilot family"

BALPA announcement Link: BALPA | Norwegian Air Shuttle & West Atlantic pilots join growing BALPA pilot family (http://balpa.org/News-and-campaigns/News/Norwegian-Air-Shuttle-West-Atlantic-pilots-join-gr.aspx)

Surely a 9,000 'strong' family, would have no trouble bringing Kjos to task over his signed promise to employ their member pilots directly, rather than rent pilots from third-party agencies.

Meanwhile, if you walk along Bath Road, between the LHR aircraft noise, you will hear the sound 'ca-ching ca-ching' as Norwegian pilots union dues are deposited in the BALPA cash register.

[fade to grey]

Really ? Balpa ?
Must be for the short haul lot, long haul developing their own Union.

I was in BaLPa before and they were utterly useless, and according to some friends from GsS they were useless there too .

Still doesn't change the fact you need to go to the beach Mr bonds and forget your constant bear baiting

[Direct Bondi]

9/4 - Dagbladet News reports the Norwegian Cockpit Association believes Norwegian's use of American and Asian crew onboard Norway registered B787 aircraft is illegal, and their intended course of action next week:

LO-forbund politianmelder Norwegians bruk av asiatiske besetninger - nyheter - Dagbladet.no (http://www.dagbladet.no/2015/09/04/nyheter/norwegian/luftfart/40964582/)

copy and paste to Google Translate

[adolf hucker]

Bondi, for whatever reason you seem to have a generously-proportioned bug up your ass about the employment practises of Norwegian. I would take a guess that, despite your wishful thinking and tiresome contributions, Norwegian will continue to expand and prosper. In the course of that process, some pilots will, regrettably, feel that they have been exploited and choose to leave. However, rather more will find it more than tolerable to provide their services for the agreed remuneration - I know that must irk you but that's just how it is.

Please, no more lectures, no more links to tabloid articles and most of all no more patronising your colleagues. We're all big boys and girls.

[JaxofMarlow]

AH - I thought that the point of Terms and Endearment was to highlight and discuss the conditions on offer in the market place from current and potential employers. Yes, DB does have a bee in his bonnet about Norwegian but I am yet to see anyone show he is wrong.

[Direct Bondi]

Adolf,

Not sure who you are or what you are, however, it is apparent who you think you are. Similar to your namesake, a painter/politician with aspirations of grandeur, your pathetic attempt to intimidate has not, and will never work - quite the opposite. Despite your delusion of representing the purported contented masses, most pilots are blissfully unaware of the adverse realities of Norwegian's regime, receiving only the rose-tinted perspective from self-serving employment agencies.

This thread requests information on Norwegian's 787 recruitment and working conditions. I have provided some information and will continue to do so. The fact that the Norway media regularly reports on Norwegian's circumvention of laws, regulations and abhorrent treatment of staff, should be of serious concern to any prospective applicant. Ultimately, the pilots decide for themselves based on the information available - despite your spectacularly failed efforts to obstruct its dissemination.

Here's another news headline of Norwegian's shameful and intolerable treatment of crew for you to consider:

"Dream job in Norwegian was a nightmare" - "Feel exposed to witch-hunt from Kjos"

Link: Føler seg utsatt for heksejakt fra Kjos etter Norwegian-krangel - nyheter - Dagbladet.no (http://www.dagbladet.no/2015/03/03/nyheter/innenriks/utenriks/norwegian/bjorn_kjos/37978024/)

associated links in the article.

[adolf hucker]

Oops, I appear to have touched a nerve. Sorry, Bondi, I take it all back. Please continue your self.appointed campaign to educate us on a daily basis and protect us from ourselves. All highly entertaining and much appreciated. I would never have worked out that Norwegian has adopted the agency 'employment' model without the benefit of your insight.

Please don't stop posting.

[essexboy]

I see Rishworth have removed the advert for cruise captains. Can someone in the know tell me if they are no longer planning to take cruise captains in the future or is this a temporary thing.

[The Crew]

Has anyone been recruited yet for the NLH job @ Gatwick and actually got a confirmed start date?
You are Brave if you have given in your EK / THY / SQ / QR / KE / CX notice , based on what we read about NLH

[SouthoftheEqator]

Firm start dates have been given. As far as being brave, a few years in the sandpit, dealing with ever changing rules, constant influx of DEC, non-compliance with contractual terms when and where it serves companies agenda and a living environment where your family members are seen by the locals as slaves and subhumans, make your choice.

[Zapper27]

HI aviators,

I Passed the assesment for an RCA. Rishworth offered courses end of the year. Now I got a mail, that NAS Cpt take the Slots end of the year and possible Start Dates for me Are sometime in spring 2016.

Good luck to all of you

Zapper

[nitefiter]

Firm start dates have been given. As far as being brave, a few years in the sandpit, dealing with ever changing rules, constant influx of DEC, non-compliance with contractual terms when and where it serves companies agenda and a living environment where your family members are seen by the locals as slaves and subhumans, make your choice.

change "sandpit to sussex" and thats pretty much spot on for Norwegian Gatwick

[Boeing operator]

All recruitment is closed but they say should open soon again for the aircrafts coming next autumn. Hear they will only open for CPT and FO then and not RCA since they have so many in the holding pool and also upgrade from within. As well a factor is that they only need very few RCA for each aircraft. So if you are a narrow body CPT you must now join as FO, unless you have wide body PIC time.

My experience when I fly on the 787, is that most of them are quite satisfied with Norwegian long haul. Perhaps they don't visit this forum. But I believe they see how things have improved the last year, and how it constantly is improving. I know many of you that won't agree, and that's fine. Go ahead and say that I am an idiot. But I have also been there, in a five star airlines. We all have our reasons to go somewhere else and perhaps end up in Norwegian long haul. For me, I value the full package offered.

[Boeing operator]

Courses from October until January, about new 50 pilots. All filled up.

[RTO]

Direct Bondi is spot on as always, I would recommend adolf to shut up and read his posts, you might learn something.

[trigger21]

With the need for more pilots over the next few years I keep hearing that Norwegian LH will be improving the T&C's next year together with offering additional new bases in UK. Any truth in this?
How many days off on average does a Capt get each month in UK at home?

[Boeing operator]

The rumor is a 40% salary increase, not confirmed yet. Average days off is 12. BKK based less, UK based more. Rumor new crew base in ORY and BCN. New bases in UK is probably for 737 MAX that will fly long haul, but not for the 787 pilots.

[Arewerunning]

Bondi sometimes scare me: he is always right! Are you the devil?

Nevertheless, thx for the info you provide my Bondi! Is very very much appreciated

[trancada]

Boeing Operator, ORY and BCN will be new base for the 787?
Do you have any information about the A320Neo, still in their plans?

[737 Jockey]

A320 Neo are being leased out or sold on. There are no plans to operate a dual fleet in short haul, doesn't make sense.

BCN and ORY are rumoured to be new LH bases. BHX and/or MAN for SH.

[Boeing operator]

Looks like the recruitment is open again. Check norwegian.com. Only FO and CPT this time. Hear they have RCAs waiting to start. :ok:

[Kobus Dune]

Beware - the Rishworth website states that pilots are "employed by our UK crewing company" - an employment agency leasing pilots to other airlines, specifically, Norwegian. However, there is no reference to this so-called "UK crewing company" in the Contact Us section of the Rishworth website. I suspect it is a broom cupboard somewhere in Crawley.
All employment agencies in the UK are regulated by:- The Conduct of Employment Agencies and Business Regulations 2003. Any pilot engaging with Rishworth via their "UK crewing company" should be familiar with this legislation.

So it seems that the contend of the bond is unenforceable for the following reasons:-
In the UK registered unemployed are obliged to seek work or have their benefits reduced and in some cases stopped entirely (JSA - Job Seekers Allowance regulations). Therefore, if you are registered unemployed (even for a week), interview for a position with Norwegian and offered employment, you are obliged to accept employment at the first opportunity or have your benefits stopped. Effectively, you are forced to sign a bond against your will. If at some later stage you decide that the working conditions are not to your liking (much has been written about the shameful management etc.), and seek alternatively employment, you are prevented form doing so by virtue of the bond. This is effectively Indentured Servitude and illegal under the UK Human Rights Act 1998 and European Convention on Human Rights.

[JW411]

New callsign - same old drone!

[JaxofMarlow]

JW411 - But is it wrong ?

[Direct Bondi]

JW411:
There is only one Bondi and apparently, one plagiarist.

Kobus:
If you intend to quote any posts, kindly use quotation marks and reference the author. Alternatively, produce some original work!

Jax: I still believe the information in my original post to be correct.

With all this recruitment activity, does anyone have news of direct employment with Norwegian, as promised in writing by CEO Bjorn Kjos?

[tripulante521]

There is no sign of permanent contract with Norwegian on the horizon. Expiring contracts in 2016 with Rishworth will be replaced by new ones from OSM Aviation.

[Direct Bondi]

This is not good news and, if true, contradicts the Kjos letter to the DoT in which he promises "direct employment with a company in the Norwegian Group after a transitional period."

Being employed full-time with an agency and rented part-time by Norwegian, with no labor rights nor labor principles directly with Norwegian, could be a contributing factor why "half of Norwegian's pilots want to quit" - E24 Norway News 9/26 - Link:

Halvparten av Norwegian-pilotene ønsker å slutte - Jobb - E24 (http://e24.no/jobb/halvparten-av-norwegian-pilotene-oensker-aa-slutte/23531846)

The news report also states:

"The pilots in Norwegian are dissatisfied with their employment. A new survey shows that half the pilots did not see a future in the company"

"The survey, carried out among 800 pilots in the group, also shows that 30% say they are looking for jobs in other companies and 75% of pilots surveyed responded that they would not recommend Norwegian as an employer"

Any plans for the LGW 787 pilots to also join BALPA ?

[737 Jockey]

Yes. Norwegian Long Haul are joining forces with Short Haul and will be covered under the same BALPA recognition agreement with OSM. Shame it's not directly with the Organ Grinder though! :sad::{:mad:

[The Crew]

I finally received an email from Rishworth or NLG ( who knows) stating the position that i had applied for is now closed however i am invited to re apply for the same position ( but different). WTF. Its been 5 months and thats their response.
Good luck to all who continue to persue this option. Personally these arrogant agencies need a preverbial kick up the a$$.

[fade to grey]

I wouldn't say joining forces.
A lot of LH have long memories and bad memories of being in BALPA before, we want something different.

[Speedoneeighty]

I wouldn't say joining forces.
A lot of LH have long memories and bad memories of being in BALPA before, we want something different.

You do have something different. You have the worst conditions in the western world.

[twentyyearstoolate]

See Rishworth has emailed recruitment is now open, with a new application system. They must be gearing up for mid 2016 I guess.

Any more news on this 40% Pay rise, or just rumour BS?!

[737 Jockey]

Well fade to grey, you and your colleagues are gonna have to set aside any animosity or disappointment, because BALPA is the only show in town. We have a recognition agreement from OSM and are part of the wider Norwegian Pilot Group. Any alternative will just divide the Pilot workforce and water down an already delicate position we currently hold. Of course, we live in a democracy so feel free to suggest a viable alternative... Unless of course, it's the IPA :ugh:

[fade to grey]

737 jockey, whilst we want to be united, I was in BALPA before and they folded like wet cardboard when I needed them. Combined with them wanting 1% of my salary for the privilege of being useless, I think not.

Do you guys not realise they are really only interested in Big Airways.

I'd rather our own fledgling association took off.

Failing that it's TGWU for me, and Jeremy Corbyn will be my best mate.

[Direct Bondi]

737 Jockey quote:
"BALPA is the only show in town. We have a recognition agreement from OSM and are part of the wider Norwegian Pilot Group"

You are employed by OSM or Rishworth, however, Norwegian tests, recruits and rejects the applicants, provides uniform and equipment, assigns the base, determines the roster, days off, vacation and promotion, provides ongoing training, and can summarily terminate your contract. Effectively, Norwegian is your real employer.

What agreements do you have that are binding with Norwegian and CEO Bjorn Kjos ?

[fade to grey]

For Christs sake bondi,
Change the record or get a hobby FFS !

[Boeing operator]

Hear they might open up for RCA again soon. We'll see.

Regarding the contract it still buffles me to understand what options that are better within Europe if you want to fly pax long haul (no cargo)? This is not a retorical question, I simply wonder. Let's say that I don't want to go to the sandpit or China, and don't want to wait 15 years for my captain position on long haul, where should I go? If you want to fly short haul there are other options. What are my options in western Europe?

Norwegian offers, via agency at the moment, London base, almost ok salary (in my perspective, but could definately be better), a working pattern that gives me about half the month off in average, a health insurance (although I also have the one in UK since the company pays social taxes there), etc. Pension will come with regulatory changes in UK from 2017. Ok aircraft to fly (although that is not too important for me), good destinations with short stops. Very nice people to work with.

Please enlighten me (without being rude).

[The Crew]

Boeing, you are correct. For what you want , NLH is sufficient . NLH have offered a long haul job, with reduced perks and conditions, with the upside being you are DEC or DEFO straight on to long haul destinations, with good prospects.
As long as the company maintains a return on investment. If not , your pension pot you hope for may be significantly diminished.

Im curious why they are still recruiting? After so long, with so many qualified guys (especially from EK !)interviewed, or on the books, why all the re advertising?

How many guys actually have commenced training from this years recruitment drive?

[nilcostoptionmyass]

Boeing, don't do it, a long haul command for £7500/month gross ?

Someones laughing all the way to the Kontanter

Really ? :ugh:

[fade to grey]

It's not £7500 gross for a Captain, numb nuts

[twentyyearstoolate]

Silly calling someone numb nuts for quoting a figure that the agency is advertising.

Here is a copy and paste from Rishworth:

Contract terms
Gross Salary
Commander: £7470 per month.
Per Diem
£830 per month.




If you have anything worthwhile to add regarding something we don't know, I'd love for you to enlighten us :)

[fade to grey]

Sorry,
I'm the numb nuts, I was thinking of the OSM deal.
I apologise

[twentyyearstoolate]

Although I am/was keen on returning to Europe after many years overseas, this money is just hard to justify when you realise what you get after tax. I guess if they can fill the seats though, it isn't going to change.

[Direct Bondi]

It is unlikely the terms and conditions will change anytime soon. Despite the various pilot representative groups uniting and "joining forces" as the Norwegian Pilot Group, their recognition was dismissed by Kjos and his cronies.

In a letter to the US DoT on 10 June this year, the Secretary of the European Transport Workers Federation, Francois Ballestero, stated:

"The Spain based pilots have organized themselves under SEPLA, the Spanish Pilots Union, and have made repeated attempts to engage Norwegian, or representatives of Norwegian, for the purpose of constructive talks. For the past six months these repeated attempts have been ignored by Norwegian.
As a reply to the efforts of the pilot representatives, Norwegian has stated that it does not have any pilots based in Spain, but a company called OSM does".

Norwegian's Communications Officer declared in an interview with Dagbladet newspaper on 7 August this year, "Norwegian has respect for unions, and has had good relationship with unions since its inception in 2002, and we intend to continue".

Two of the most respected and highest circulation newspapers in Norway, Aftenposten and DN, have now joined E24 News to report "Half of Norwegian's pilots want to quit" and "75% of the 800 pilots surveyed would not recommend Norwegian as an employer" - Links:

Aftenposten - Halvparten av Norwegian-pilotene ønsker å slutte - Aftenposten (http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/iriks/Halvparten-av-Norwegian-pilotene-onsker-a-slutte-8180823.html)

DN - Halvparten av Norwegian-pilotene ønsker å slutte - DN.no (http://www.dn.no/nyheter/naringsliv/2015/09/26/0859/halvparten-av-norwegianpilotene-nsker--slutte)

E24 - Halvparten av Norwegian-pilotene ønsker å slutte - Jobb - E24 (http://e24.no/jobb/halvparten-av-norwegian-pilotene-oensker-aa-slutte/23531846)

Kjos was named 'Leader of the Year' by temporary staffing agency Manpower Inc.

[slr737]

Direct Bondi what you are writing is BULL**** !

The Spain pilot committee has just been elected last week, so HOW is it possible that they have made attempt during 6 months to establish a talk with Norwegian. They are just going to start doing it !

On the other hand, it's a 787 topic here.... the 787 has no spanish employee yet !

If you state something, maybe it is nice to confirm it is true and not just copy paste bull**** info.

Frankly GET A LIFE or a HOBBY or even a DOG !

[Direct Bondi]

slr737,

In reply to your ignorant post and to corroborate the facts;

It is irrelevant Norwegian's 787s have no Spanish pilots. The 787 and non-Scandinavian 737 divisions use the identical employment model to circumvent labor rights and labor principles. Kjos has stated his intention to open a 787 base in Spain.

Since 2014, SEPLA has represented over 80% of Norwegian's pilots in Spain. SEPLA first requested Norwegian to engage in mutually constructive talks on February 1, 2015. This is confirmed in the January 23, 2015, News Release on the SEPLA website - Link:

Sepla - Irregularities found in the hiring process of Spain-based pilots operating for Norwegian (http://www.sepla.es/en/sala-de-prensa/sepla-noticias/irregularidades-en-la-contratacion-de-los-pilotos-que-operan-para-norwegian-en-espana/)

In regard to the unilateral termination of contracts that occurred in late 2014, which may repeat, SEPLA reports in the release;

"In order to force the pilots into signing new contracts, the company [OSM] introduced aggressive tactics by establishing a deadline on short notice. Furthermore, pilots received written threats of contracts terminations if they chose not to comply with the imposed deadline".

Norwegian refused to recognize SEPLA, and in a letter to the US DoT on June 10 this year, the Secretary of the European Transport Workers Federation, Francois Ballestero, stated:

"The Spain based pilots have organized themselves under SEPLA, the Spanish Pilots Union, and have made repeated attempts to engage Norwegian, or representatives of Norwegian, for the purpose of constructive talks. For the past six months these repeated attempts have been ignored by Norwegian. As a reply to the efforts of the pilot representatives, Norwegian has stated that it does not have any pilots based in Spain, but a company called OSM does".

You may confirm these facts directly with Secretary Ballestero via his public domain email address, available on the European Transport Workers Federation website - Link:

European Transport Workers' Federation: The ETF Team (http://www.etf-europe.org/contact.cfm)

One final point, you are entitled to disagree with my posts, but please offer an intelligent rebuttal rather than expose your lack of intellect with profanity and adolescent remarks. That sort of conduct may be accepted within Norwegian, but it is not welcome here

[slr737]

Once again uninformed information taken from newspaper who have no clue on what is happening.

Yeah we have been a member in SEPLA since 2014. But a reduced member until lately since we had not full membership!
If you are within NAX, you would know that.
Since the NAX SEPLA committee has been established, we will now enjoy the full membership of SEPLA. But nothing happened much before, except a few letter from the SEPLA president which if we are not represented by an elected SEPLA board is useless.

Once again, direct bondi what you write is wrong.

[Direct Bondi]

slr737,

When comparing your recent post to mine, it is apparent you are unable to comprehend factual information, its origin and an alternative means of confirmation. In addition to the demonstrated lack of communication skills in your first post, these failings are all detrimental to flight safety. Readers may rightly question your competence in an aviation environment.

In consideration of the above, it is unfortunate you chose to identify yourself as a Norwegian crewmember on a public website.

[Gypsy]

DB - I have not been part of this debate (if thats what it is) but as an outside observer you really need to drop it and move on. You're display signs of an obsessive compulsive disorder so let it go. If guys want to join Norwegian - let them. It doesn't affect you. Get a hobby

[Chesty Morgan]

Conversely if someone wants to post about Norwegian, let them. It doesn't affect you.

[Gypsy]

Absolutely fair comment but my post was meant as friendly advice, not criticism.

[Viking101]

Would be awesome to fly the 787!

But there's always going to be a price. I think a bond for a TR is fair, kind of the old TRSS schemes years ago and that was up to 5 years.

A salary of £7500 is not good enough for the position and responsibility.

Problem is that every time an airline shakes the pilot tree there will always be pilots falling down and accepting t&c. As someone said before, some need to feed their families.

Norwegian is going through a tough time with unhappy employees, that will stay until conditions improve. If ever.

One can only decide what the price is worth to fly the 787 for a low cost carrier. And the risk of taking the job should the long haul have to stop operations.

[Nearly Man]

The recent rosters have just popped out and there's now positioning within the US included along with positioning in to and out of Scandinavia instead of flying out of your LGW base.
I don't know what their game is but they're pissing off a lot of their pilots.

[Kirks gusset]

Welcome to the world of low cost long haul!

[Boeing operator]

Yepp, guess you can say low cost. Few frequencies to some destinations. Instead of having guys three four days in Vegas or Frisco they position them to LA and fly home the next day. More days at home hopefully. It works for me but perhaps not for everyone commuting far to home. But some guys prefer being on the road :rolleyes:

[Avenger]

BO its a fair comment, you can't put a price on being in your own bed, cutting your own grass and in your own man-cave...

[highfive]

More time off ?
No company pays to position crew back to home base , to then let them enjoy some xtra RnR . Its not commercial. Expect to be back at work sooner .

Time in hotels downroute usually earns more time off at home when you return, well in carriers ive wirked for, not pisitioning asap.

But good luck with this . .

[Boeing operator]

Highfive; I agree. But what NLH is doing now is not positioning crew back home. Rather to a different city in US. I've been at airlines that do the same. The company saves production days and hotel costs.

A hotel in the US can easily cost USD 250 a night. Instead of having the crew there for - let's say - four nights, they positioning them with Southwest from Frisco to LA, and fly back home the next day. More days home (in my case).

A win-win situation. But of course, some always complain no matter.

[Direct Bondi]

At the risk of incurring the wrath of an unqualified pikey psychiatrist and an incompetent F/O for any criticism of Norwegian;

I assume the positioning of crew all around the US and Europe to save costs, is after full consultation with the pilot union, pilot committee, or whatever group the pilots believe may represent their best interests with Norwegian ?

[Gypsy]

DB. One doesn't have to be a qualified psychiatrist to recognise when someone isn't quite okay. As I said my post was meant as friendly advice and here is another snippet - it isn't necessary to 'win' every argument or discussion you get into. Say your piece and let others say there's. Accept that others may still have different opinions to you. Also its not necessary to insult people that have a different opinion to you.

Anyway, I'm sure you'll do your own thing. Its up to you.

Finally - in over 30 years, I've been fortunate to work for a couple of very large airlines and a national carrier and I've never known any airline consult the Union before deciding whether to position crew somewhere.

PS: Don't work for Norwegian and not planning to apply.

[111boy]

Sorry to slightly adjust the thread, but out of interest, has anyone else applied for Norwegian, completed " online tests " and then been told " You need to re apply " Then " if you have done the tests, they are valid for a year !" and then. sorry, but 2 days later.... please complete these on line tests ...

is the company better organised once you work for them ?

were there interviews in LGW this week ?

as an aside, as a British born, airline pilot of a few decades now. These tests, how the hell does anyone born elsewhere complete them, I struggled and I've been talking this language for quite some time. Good luck everyone

[Direct Bondi]

Pikey: One should not invent self-serving analysis of entirely appropriate responses to then falsely dramatize as insults. You may wish to self-analyze your first paragraph for its gross hypocrisy.

It is indeed most unusual for an airline to suddenly introduce a fleet policy of positioning crew to begin flights out of base. It is even more unusual to position crew from an overseas destination to another gateway for the return trip to base.

With the recent joining of forces of the various pilot groups into one united and "100% Norwegian" alliance, it is difficult to understand how this policy was introduced without any consultation. So much for recognition. What next, and for which group of the so-called alliance?

The NPG website suggests the alliance will take a proactive role. This has yet to be seen - Link: NPG | Norwegian Pilot Group (http://www.norwegianpilotgroup.com/)

[fade to grey]

dB,
It would seem your constant posting here, relies purely on information you have gleaned from pprune, as you have no insider information as you clearly don't work for NLH.

' don't believe everything you read on the Internet '.

Norwegian pilots are not as one - SH has BALPA recognised as negotiating partner. LH doesn't, and probably won't.

[Gypsy]

DB. Calling people by derogatory names is a kind of playground thing that most guys grew out of by the time they wore long trousers. Please think about that.

I must have worked for some pretty unusual airlines. In one well known and respected long haul operation, it was common practice to operate to one particular destination, then position to another and operate the next sector from there. It was also quite common for the first or last sector of a long haul pattern to be a positioning sector.

Its what sharp airlines do. As much as I've on other occasions enjoyed a week off at a particularly nice destination, it doesn't always work out that way. Its not a holiday club for us. The airline has to minimise costs so positioning can be part of that. Rather than DB's suggestion that Unions are usually consulted, it would in my experience be 'most unusual' for a Company to go to a Union and ask if it is okay to position crew somewhere.

Perhaps DB can give us some insight to his background. How many years as a professional pilot and how many airlines with lets say more than 30 jets has he worked for.

[fade to grey]

Well said gypsy,
I'd consider that sort of positioning entirely normal TBH.

It would be nice if they want to leave me in Vegas for five days,but they don't seem keen

[negativeclimb]

Hi guys I need of a suggestion.

I am flying in Asia as a fo the B747, net salary per month is around 7500$ but to get the upgrade to cpt I have to wait around 6 years and the problem is the family that I have left in Europe that is spoiling me to come back home.
Honestly also the quality of life in Asia is not so good in my personal opinion that's why I am considering to come back home and I have applied for this Norwegian 787 position.

Please could you give me some advices in terms of having a career here, if the salary is good enough to let my family have a decent life in uk (I am Italian) and the working environment ?

Ita ah important choice for me, thank you very much for your tips.

:-)

[Gypsy]

There are plenty of uk tax calculator websites to help you work out the take home pay.

To find out whats available for accommodation to buy or rent, you could use

UK's number one property website for properties for sale and to rent (http://www.rightmove.co.uk)

UK supermarkets are reasonably cheap compared to many european countries due lots of competition.

Petrol about £1.09 per litre of unleaded at the moment.

[essexboy]

Any truth in the rumour that they have placed another big order with boeing.

[fade to grey]

Yes,
Press release the other day, 19 more. I think that takes us through 30 in total.
Going to be much recruitment, and everyone's dreams will come true.....wanna be a TRI/E, LTC, capt whatever, they'll be plenty of room

[twentyyearstoolate]

wanna be the lowest paid TRI/E, LTC, capt whatever, they'll be plenty of room :}

[trigger21]

So...with all these planes coming, Where will they get the pilots from? Is there any package increase on the cards? They sure need it to attract the guys from the Middle East. Permanent contracts for a start.

[captplaystation]

ct 2015, 17:18 #440 (permalink)
twentyyearstoolate

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: A hemisphere
Posts: 159
wanna be the lowest paid TRI/E, LTC, capt whatever, they'll be plenty of room
Last edited by twentyyearstoolate; 24th Oct 2015 at 18:01.


Nail, hammer, head.

But you can sit in your (really ****ty, certainly in OSL ) hotel room & jerk off to the fact you are living the "Dream"liner . . . .feckin retards. . . . . .

[fade to grey]

ha ha,
Love it when t@ats like you take the bait.

[Cloud Chaser]

Could anyone provide an example of a typical roster for a LGW 787 FO, just in basic terms of days on/off (if there is any pattern to it)?
I've seen mention of 20 day trips, is that the norm or an extreme case?
Doesn't seem like much of a life from what I'm reading here, but I know people rarely post about the good things, only the bad. And from the outside, prospects look quite good compared to a legacy carrier.

[fade to grey]

It's entirely random, although the company is heading towards 8/6 as an aim to allow the commuters to commute.

Worst I've seen was 15-20 day trips, that seems rare now. I rarely go away more than 7 days in a row. 10 days off

[Avenger]

Fade considering your post, ıs commute to Europe possible with the current roster pattern or more likely in the future and is uk tax deducted at source and then left to individuals to arrange any dual tax agreements with say Germany or Holland? Also are you required to be at base 24 hrs before a duty? Thanks

[Cloud Chaser]

Thanks Fade to Grey, 8/6 sounds quite reasonable if that did ever happen. Guess as they get the crew numbers up it will get easier.

Is there any talk of permanent contracts? And if not any idea what happens after the three years are up?

[fade to grey]

Commuting is possible, and a lot of people do it.
Obviously it depends on where you are in Europe, as to how easy.

I'm not sure about the tax situation .

Rest wise, the normal rule applies of 12 hrs before duty.

[fade to grey]

I should mention of course, the possibility of different bases Europe opening up in the near future I'd think.

After three years with one agency, you are expected to move to another agency.
I don't believe th you ever be direct employment with Norwegian

[trigger21]

Any B787 Capt that could shed light on approximate take home each month? Living in UK paying UK tax?
Cheers

[Avenger]

Thanks, I am not too worried about direct employment and all that nonsense, more about keeping the tax affairs in order, especially with the purge on these so called Self employed pilots.. looking at the figures, based on between 10 and 11k Euro a month, converted to GBP it works out about 5k to 5.5 K a month after UK Tax, which, I think is reasonable, other astronauts may feel different, but that's their choice.

[twentyyearstoolate]

Any B787 Capt that could shed light on approximate take home each month? Living in UK paying UK tax?


I don't work there, but the take home pay will be 4960 pounds (for a Captain) if you are married. This was using a tax calculator online.

it works out about 5k to 5.5 K a month after UK Tax, which, I think is reasonable, other astronauts may feel different, but that's their choice.

If you think this is "reasonable" based in one of the most expensive cities in the world, then good luck to you. We're all entitled to our opinions. With a family, renting a house in any of the suburbs within reasonable distance will cost you a fair chunk of your net pay.

If you think I'm an Astronaut for wanting/thinking the package should be significantly more, well then, I'm Neil Armstrong. Because I think it should be more, a lot more!! I mean, it's not even a permanent job FFS :ugh: I'd get laughed at trying to get a loan. By nature, contracts should pay more due to the temporary nature/lack of job security.

No wonder the industry has gone to the dogs with what is considered as reasonable by some here.

Some guys on great pensions from legacy carriers I have met, always seem happy to "top up their pension" with some of these gigs. To them it's ok, as its "fun money". They don't give a rats about guys earning this money as their sole income. They have not a clue about reality for the younger guys that didn't catch the gravy train. :ugh:

Stay away from flight school kids!!!! My son decided to be an Electrician, and I'm just so happy he won't be joining this crap circus. Tradesman over a future as an airline pilot. Easy choice these days I think.

[beachbumflyer]

twenty, I agree with you.
Unfortunately there are a lot people like Avenger who are taking the industry
down the tubes.
I hope they pay good for it.

[fade to grey]

Hi,
It's three years with agency, then open ended contract with another.
Captain pay after UK tax / NI is around £5.9k

[highfive]

Big que to join NLH now . Most DEC ex Middle East or far east inc China. Oh And the ex legacy bunch just to add to the numbers.

Based on this , Pay could actually go down. Its how the industry has operated over the last 10 yrs.

6k take home is as good as you can get working for a uk based carrier , right?
Gatwick isnt London . And driving 30 mins puts you in some affordable and adorable parts of sussex .

[Avenger]

Very questionable attitude guys, play the ball, not the player..This is a forum, it does not mean everyone has to agree.. what is " acceptable" depends on individual circumstances, NLH seem to have plenty of applicants that know the score beforehand and one assumes they also find this " acceptable" . The pay is about 70 percent of my current pay, however, taking into account living overseas as opposed to a no mortgage house at home, not paying to store cars etc, it works out the same. With an existing FSP, anything above this is taxed at a high rate in any event. Of course, there are much younger skippers that need more money, but once again, personal choice. People like me to do "drag the industry standards down", in reality we probably raise them as our focus is towards professional standards and safe operations not simply pocket deep issues. Of course, I expect incoming flak, but I would rather fly with a contented lower paid individual than a flogged soldier constantly complaining about their lot. Personal sacrifices are made taking into account the big picture and I am happy to drive a 5 year old banger rather than the latest model BMW. Unfortunately, for some, success in this industry is not measured by what you have achieved, more by what you can buy..or afford to buy..helmet on!

[twentyyearstoolate]

Fade to grey: you say take home pay will be 5900 Pounds. How do you arrive at that figure, as I am putting in 7500 gross into an online tax calculator and its saying 4960 pounds. Admittedly each ones situation will be slightly different, but a thousand pounds is a lot? Are you including the per diem alowance? Or am i missing something?

[fade to grey]

I'm including the whole ball park in that number

[TurboTomato]

If you think this is "reasonable" based in one of the most expensive cities in the world, then good luck to you

Let's get this straight - it's not based in the city is it? And therefore does not come with the stratospheric cost of living well there in terms of property. You would have to be utterly mad to base yourself in central London for a LGW job. There are plenty of towns and villages in the Sussex/Surrey countryside where £5k+ take home would get you a rather nice property.

[trigger21]

You say affordable down near gatwick for £5k - £5.5k a month...but tie in the fact that there is no pension so you have to save for your future yourself. There's a chunk coming out every month before you've even started. £6k sounds like it would be ok, but any less than £5k isn't worth it, not for a non-permanent contract. If they had a pension scheme and a permanent contract, £5k a month might be ok (ish).

[back to Boeing]

Let's be honest. Most long haul FO's earn in the region of £5000 per month, many earning significantly more (and that includes a pension). For a captain to be earning that is derisory.

[twentyyearstoolate]

There are plenty of towns and villages in the Sussex/Surrey countryside where £5k+ take home would get you a rather nice property.

Yeah, it is an "ok" salary, but that is all. But for an experienced Airline Captain, your comment is ####### ridiculous. People like you make me shake my head in shame and see why the industry is, and has been well and truly F######! No pension and no permanent Job and you still think this salary is ok?! :ugh::ugh::ugh:

And by the way, how does one get a Mortgage for these "cheaper" areas exactly?? The Banks will not take to eagerly to a three year contract.

Bend over lads, smile and be happy to be paid to fly a new Jet ;)

[highfive]

The salary on offer, will be OK for expats who have a pile of cash in the bank, investments producing income and no mortgage on primary residence.This is the candidate NLH are trying to attract. And successfully so.

Its also ok for blinkered vision Fos who feel they can always get a job anywhere with a 787 rating.

I agree though, the salary hopeless if you don't have the 500K downpayment to allow you to get that mortgage on your dream residence in east sussex.

Terrace house in crawley anyone?

[nick14]

Bear in mind that the banks are stopping lending to contracts that are not in sterling this year, there is currently only 1 lender in the country that will but soon they will stop too.

[Mikehotel152]

£5k take home in London/SE is not a King's ransom given sky-high house prices in that part of the UK.

I live north of London and work out of STN. In this beautiful, uncongested part of the country house prices are 30% lower and my £5.5k as a youthful 737 skipper is tolerable.

But I've always said you'd have to give me at least a £20k pay rise to encourage me south of the Thames. Take away my stable family-friendly 5/4 roster and I'd want at least £30k extra.

Horses for courses.

[TurboTomato]

Yeah, it is an "ok" salary, but that is all. But for an experienced Airline Captain, your comment is ####### ridiculous. People like you make me shake my head in shame and see why the industry is, and has been well and truly F######! No pension and no permanent Job and you still think this salary is ok?!

Er hang on a second, please point out to me where I've said that £5k is just fine for an experienced airline captain?! Or anything other than what £5k take home might get you. I'm not in the industry. I was trying to make the point that citing the LGW base as a negative because you're based in one of the most expensive cities in the world is not true. Yes housing is more expensive in the SE but as I said you'd have to be mad to base yourself in central London for a LGW job. That was all. A little balance.

[twentyyearstoolate]

Er hang on a second, please point out to me where I've said that £5k is just fine for an experienced airline captain?!

Well as this is a Pilots Forum, and we're talking about the Captains salary, and they require experienced Captains. Therefore you have to be inferring it's an ok salary for an Experienced Captain.

A little balance

Compared to what?

[TurboTomato]

You have inferred that, I have inferred nothing. Come back when you've actually read my 2nd post as to what my point actually was.

Trying to balance histrionics with facts.

[twentyyearstoolate]

So you think 5k is ok to get a "rather nice property" in Surrey. Great, good for you. This is a Pilots forum, we are talking specifically about NLH package for a Captain. So if you are not inferring anything regarding the salary of a Widebody Captain, you're clearly in the wrong forum sight.

Pardon me for thinking you were referring to an Wide Body Captains salary in this forum, even though that's what we're talking about :ugh::ugh::ugh:

As to your "Histrionics", I've spent some time in Surrey, and let me assure you the cost of living is up there with the highest in the world (Real estate aside), so I don't think it's too Melodramatic to say it's a basing in one of the most expensive cities in the world.

[Chesty Morgan]

Implied, not inferred. ;)

[evyjet]

5k would be enough to get a rather nice property ?? Would that be for a Security Guard? A Plumber? A council worker? A Surgeon? A Lawyer? A Cleaner etc etc It would appear you are indeed talking about a Captains salary (one would assume on the forum you are in). Please correct me if I'm wrong. One would also assume because you think you can live comfortably (nice home) South of LGW that you think the salary for a 787 Captain is fair?

May I also add that any Captain would be restricted to renting only, unless he can purchase a property with cash, as I would Imagine in the current climate, it would be very hard for a Pilot on a 3 year contract to obtain a mortgage. Seems like a really reall S###ty deal to me.

Do you not find it a little bizzare that a qualified long haul Captain can't even get a Mortgage to buy a home should he desire?! I do.

Evy

[twentyyearstoolate]

Implied, not inferred.

Yup, that's the one.

As long as I don't mix up Circumcised and Castrated :}

[fade to grey]

Well,
It depends what you want.
If you want a large country house in the SE , £1.5m + is what you need, so you can forget being an airline pilot and getting one, unless your other half also has a highly paid profession.

This three year contract thing V a mortgage - the biggest issue is actually being self employed more than anything .

[Chesty Morgan]

I've just found a two bed, terraced house in Horsham. A bargain at £400,000. The whole row is probably populated by destitute Norwegian skippers.

Let's look somewhere nicer......Oooh a three bed bungalow in Pulborough.:rolleyes:

Living the dream huh? Nope, I want more than that, don't you?

20yearstoolate, :D

[Avenger]

Yes, the self employed status does tend to bugger it up, making enquiries most lenders want 3 years accounts and the lending is based on the retained profits, which are practically nil, so option B is to put a large wad down and then put yourself at the mercy of a broker, typically 2 percent of the loan but max LTV I could find was 60 percent. The other option is to use your wad to buy two smaller houses to rent out and use the income to rent in the SE, but the thought of retiring to a 2 up 2 down in Bedford student area and watching Karaoke at the pub is not so attractive. If one is prepared to travel a little further south you can get a reasonable abode for around 700K, which means raiding the pension or emptying the mattress in the ME. As mentioned, NLH do not seem to have too much problem attracting the people and at the moment they have no need to raise the bar. Mistakenly I thought the salary was to enjoy life, not to build a castle, no matter how big your house your grave will be the same size:ugh:

[fade to grey]

Jeez,
Even if you earn £150k clear as a skipper, you'd still not be able to buy a castle in the SE.

4 x salary is normal so £600k, plus any cash deposit.

Be realistic, your not Alan £&@ing sugar, just a pilot.

[Chesty Morgan]

Right, so what's four times the salary of a NLH skipper? 360-400ish equivalent before tax.

Welcome to your pokey little Sussex terrace captain.

[Avenger]

Fade, a reasonable property in leafy West Midlands, may even be your neighbour!

5 bedroom detached house for sale in Solihull Road, Hampton-In-Arden, Solihull, West Midlands, B92, B92 (http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-33002727.html)

Seems you do have to be Alan Sugar to live these days! I assume the company provide car parking at LGW, in which case, no need to live within the expensive 50 mile belt, slightly further north of Luton in Northants is good value and rentals are also reasonable: 5 bedroom detached house to rent in Bridge Meadow Way, Grange Park, NN4 (http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-to-rent/property-37036707.html) The point being we can all cut our cloth accordingly.

[fade to grey]

Ha,
That's funny avenger, reason being I used to actually live about 7 miles from there.....

I can't be arsed to argue with the others who have no intention of applying to NLH,
If you don't like the salary, stay in the ME or China .
If your a BA or Virgin skipper , well done, your sorted for wonga anyway.

That leaves the rest of us.

[HidekiTojo]

Just wait until the wonderful Norwegian decide that you would be better off in a different base or better still that they no longer need you.

[captplaystation]

Personally, I can't see the advantage of flying the "plastic fantastic" (jet-lag/no wifi / 8 ? or is it now 10 ? days off a month) in preference to the 738 (same money / wifi / if LGW based home most nights & contracted 12 OFF a month) am I missing something more relevant than penis size here :E ;)

[fade to grey]

Well, it's a bit naive to assume aircraft type comes into the decision of employer isn't it ?

" hey, fade, what ya wanna fly ?" - spoken in an airline interview, never.

There are no advantages or disadvantages ,
For me
- don't have 737 rating
- don't live near gatwick
- one sector days across multiple time zones , for me, marginally less tiring than multi sector stuff.

To be absolutely clear. I don't give a stuff what I fly. If a tiger moth paid the same I'm sure it's more fun !

[Chesty Morgan]

Actually I was asked in my last interview which type I'd like to fly.

[Direct Bondi]

The Norwegian labor model is like the plot of a low budget horror movie. Except in this instance the victims are inexplicably running toward the monster.

Fixed-term, full time employment continues to be offered only by an agency for temporary work with Norwegian at LGW. The agency may or may not find you alternative work if Norwegian summarily dispenses with your services. Individual agency contracts may indemnify the agency from any obligation due to decisions taken by their client airline, Norwegian. If applying for a mortgage always be aware:

"Mortgage fraud is a crime in which the intent is to materially misrepresent or omit information on a mortgage loan application to obtain a loan, or obtain a larger loan, than would have not been obtained had the lender or borrower known the truth" - this includes failure to disclose liabilities, such as a training bond.

Kjos promised direct employment in his June 1 letter:

"It has and will continue to be our firm policy to offer all pilots and cabin crews employed through agencies, the opportunity to transfer their employment to a company in the Norwegian Group at the end of a transitional period"

In respect of direct employment at the end of any LGW transitional period, Kjos has, so far, failed to honor his promise. The Norwegian Pilot Group declares on its website that direct employment is a main objective. Given the Kjos labor relations record, there may be trouble ahead in achieving or even maintaining this objective. The Scandinavian pilot group and their direct employment contract renewal, will be the tester for any 100% Norwegian, pilot unity (not just a shiny red badge, but a way of life):

"The Norwegian Pilot Group believes that cooperation and unity of purpose are essential to protect our collective professional interests in Norwegian and are committed to working together"

Good news:- from November 15, new EU legislation is enacted and includes specific terminology to protect Norwegian's agency crew, and others, if reporting safety matters. Previous legislation, EU 2003/42/EC, protected only "employees". Norwegian has summarily dismissed agency crew, via their agency, after they raised safety issues. EU 376/2014 protects both "employees and contracted personnel" - Link: https://easa.europa.eu/document-library/regulations/regulation-eu-no-3762014

Pilots can now make full use of the initiatives described in the Norwegian OM A, 1.4.1 and 3.4.2 also, 7.5, without fear of retribution. Any crew fatigued due to positioning to/from flights, are encouraged to submit the applicable report.

[negativeclimb]

Hi guy,
I have done the online tests 3 weeks ago and at the moment still no answer.

Do you know how long does it takes the procedure to get the invitation for the assessment?
And when?

Thank you

[negativeclimb]

any news? No answers for me?

[fade to grey]

Why don't you ask rishworth ?

[Boeing operator]

I hear you won't get any feedback in the process unless you fail any step. So, if you hear nothing after completing the online tests all should be fine and you await a possible invitation. Something like that it says in the email when you register the application.

It's an ongoing process. If you are current on Boeing it's a greater chance you'll get invited for interview and sim, less if Airbus rated, even less if rated on smaller aircraft. Heard it has to do with cost of training.

Hear they will recruit every month 2016. They just asked all pilots if anyone wanted to join the recruitment team. 30 B787-9 coming five years is a lot of pilots... :ok:

[highfive]

I understand they only interviewing B777 B787 guys predominantly from the gulf airlines. and Turkish . Will keep the recruitment people busy for a few months. No shortage of overqualified applicants both FO n DEC.

No idea how many guys have actually taken the leap of faith and left EK, QR and the unmentionable lot for NLH?

[Boeing operator]

Most pilots from Ryanair, Primera, SunExpress, ex KLM, ex Martinair, SIA, Privatair, Jet time, Jet2, Cargolux, Silkway and Norwegian short haul. Also some from Emirates, Etihad and Qatar, but not that many yet.

[highfive]

For DEC, they are asking for 1000 hours min widebody. Presumanly those from narrow body are taken on as FO?

[fullforward]

Check your PM please.

[viking767]

Personally, I can't see the advantage of flying the "plastic fantastic" (jet-lag/no wifi / 8 ? or is it now 10 ? days off a month) in preference to the 738 (same money / wifi / if LGW based home most nights & contracted 12 OFF a month) am I missing something more relevant than penis size here :E ;)



How does wifi/no wifi come into the picture?

[fade to grey]

Yes you are missing something,
Not everyone lives near gatwick - they don't do all out and backs anyway.

The money's actually a tad better.

Also SH don't offer the ability for unrated DEC on 737,

Those with enough command experience on small planes join as ' relief captain '

WTF you going on about wifi for ?

[uchy]

How is a typical monthly roster? How many days off?

[Boeing operator]

Minimum 10 days off per month, average is 11,5 days/month they say. Plus 28 days vacation per year. A few positioning days per month, a couple of blank days. If you live in Scandinavia or at LGW, for example, using your blank days and positioning days wise you end up with a few more days off per month.

They offer three choices; variable roster (variable amount of off-days, perhaps nice to them living close to LGW), two blocks of (minimum) 5 days off each, and one block of (minimum) 10 days off.

At the moment only direct entry CPT and FO, but hear they will open externally for RCA as well within days.

[Speedoneeighty]

"Why wifi"

Take a guess

[fade to grey]

I was rather hoping he want implying whether the aircraft has wifi or not is a selling point for beings it's bloody pilot.

Modern generation

[midnight cruiser]

I kind of get why a Brit 777 Captain from a hot and sweaty part of the world might want to do be a NLH Captain ...

but I really can't conceive of why an experienced A320/737 Captain would be interested in the crushingly boring role of cruise pilot - (A role most EU airlines just use standard FOs for, provided they have an ATPL).

[Speedoneeighty]

I was rather hoping he want implying whether the aircraft has wifi or not is a selling point for beings it's bloody pilot.

Modern generation

I am reliably informed that the older pilots are just as bad as their younger colleagues if not worse when it comes to the Norwegian wifi so stop kidding yourself.

[captplaystation]

" I am reliably informed that the older pilots are just as bad as their younger colleagues if not worse when it comes to the Norwegian wifi so stop kidding yourself."


You bet :ok:

Whilst it may not be a factor in your decision, it is nice to have (particularly if you are at a base with an average sector length of 4-5 hrs ) Amazing Boeing couldn't have sent the Screamliner out the door with it fitted as standard, so much for "modern". But, really, it is a sideshow to the main questions, which concern salary/employment model/rosters/duties/layovers/quality of hotels/quality of air. On that last note, I am jealous of your 6000ft cabin alt with no bleed air, and being able to hear yourself think without the 737 racket all the time, but, I still think the gig falls well short of what anyone could reasonably expect from a long haul contract, hence why I couldn't get excited about it in preference to a 737 contract with the same operator. (apart from at LGW base where the rosters seem to be useless on a magnitude possibly related to where they originate from )

[Mr Angry from Purley]

Good to see UK AOC has now been approved. Will any 787 go on the G reg now that EASA FTL offers a level playing field

[POT NOODLE HORN]

Eventually all 787 & 737's will be G reg opening up many new doors.....

[Direct Bondi]

Norwegian’s UK AOC:

Norwegian has made NO announcement of any date to employ pilots at LGW in 2016 or beyond.

Norwegian continues to source pilots on a temporary basis from various agency employers and may ‘return’ those pilots to the agency at any time, without reason, and without recourse. Any notice period is with the employer agency, not Norwegian. Additionally, contracts may contain a clause indemnifying the agency from any obligation, including a notice period, due to action by its client airline. This arrangement or scheme permits Norwegian to circumvent employment laws, labor rights and labor principles.

With the alleged expansion, now is the time for the Norwegian Pilot Group to be a force rather than a farce.

Unfortunately, in respect of pilot unity, it appears Norwegian’s long-haul pilots wish to separate from their short-haul colleagues. Compare the declarations from the respective websites:

https://nlhpa.org/public/news/pilot-association-founded-norwegian-long-haul-pilots (https://nlhpa.org/public/news/pilot-association-founded-norwegian-long-haul-pilots)

http://www.norwegianpilotgroup.com/ (http://www.norwegianpilotgroup.com/)

Apparently, the pilots are already divided, making any future conquering that much easier for Kjos.

[essexboy]

I received an invite to do the online assessments again. Anyone else?

[highfive]

I understand that the deal is 3 years contract?
Then what ? Is Bondi correct in saying they return you to the agency ? Makes no sense. Or do you sign another 3 year deal?

I was asked to re submit the online tests. But once i told them i had already done them they , eventually, acknowledged that I didn't have to do again .

I applied 6 months ago lol . Jokers.

So far no one person has been offered a LGW contract. Period.

[Boeing operator]

Highfive; I don't really understand. You write that no one got a LGW contract so far? About 150 Norwegian B787 pilots are on a LGW contract. The rest of them in BKK.

After three years you'll get offered a permanent contract with OSM Aviation.

It has been discussed here before if you must do the online tests twice. I suggest you read the invitation more careful where it should clearly say that if you have done the tests within a year you don't have to do them again. Quite simple.

[highfive]

The Norwegian guys employed are already in Norwegian. Im talking about new joining that are not currently employed by Norwegian wether Sh or LH.

Wonder what the reason is they dont send out the thanks but no thanks letter? Guess many are looking but not so serious as to leave EK when push comes to shove.

The layover hotels are only 3 Star. The crews are all asian gals. Good luck with those Asian night stops ;)