"You gotta be kidding me" - Dragon Air Pilot

[bhead]

This was what happened in an evening days ago in the east sector in HK FIR.

HDA A330 departed RCTP checking in ELATO FL340.
AAR (Asiana) Jumbo departed RCSI checking in ELATO FL380.
They are on top of each other in ATC perspective.

After passing ELATO, HDA was instructed to descend FL300 within 30 miles.
Upon reaching, HDA was instructed to reduce speed 250knots.

"HDAXXX, reduce speed 250knots"
"(a brief humiliating laugh) you gota be kidding me"

What a professional pilot from dragon air, role model of the industry.

I dono if anyone could or if it is appropriate to disclose specifics like callsigns or arrival time here.

Would share the conversation that follows after waking up from the world cup matches, lol.

[twotigers]

No worse than the constant whining of our own crews
In PEK or PVG when there's a delay.
All KA guys sit tight, while CX guys try and reinvent
Chinese ATC with there demands.

What number are we in sequence?
What is the reason for the delay ?
Why is the delay undetermined?
Don't you know we're Cathay????

[Lowkoon]

Bet he can fly a visual approach though! :ok:

Yes, Chinese and HK ATC are extremely frustrating airspaces to operate in. Yes, Boeings are faster than Airbus.

[twotigers]

;)

To be fair, it's almost a year since Asiana hit the pier.
One a year out of all the flights they do.. That's not bad

[nitpicker330]

I'd agree with the KA Pilots frustration. Normally if you are the lower Aircraft you would naturally get to be number one over an Aircraft above you at ELATO. That's what's happened to me many times when I've been the lower or the higher Aircraft.

So what if the Boeing is 20 to 25kts faster....it would still take way too long to get far enough ahead ( usually need at least 10 nm trail )

They should have asked Asiana to slowdown and KA to speed up a bit.

Letting the Aircraft above go first only creates extra separation issues for ATC involving off track headings for the lower slower Aircraft to obtain separation, speed difference isn't enough.

So basically the lower guy gets screwed around way more than necessary.

[8888]

Throw a hand grenade in the room and then piss off aye bhead? Perhaps he was making up time at .83 and was very aware of his greater speed compared to the other aircraft at Econ which wasn't factored into the equation by ATC? There's often a lot more to equation when outbursts are made.

[nitpicker330]

Maybe, but ATC can see GS on their display for all Aircraft.

[cxorcist]

When it's busy, 250 seems to be the standard no matter which direction you're coming from these days. I have gotten over it by just expecting it every time. I feel for the KA guys though. They gotta put up with it more than most at CX.

[crewsunite]

Perhaps u should spend less time watching soccer...

The higher A/C has a higher TAS, once more its higher possible IAS compounded by the TAS makes it a no brainer decesion for ATC.

Ok now lets read something important.

[Synchronize]

BHead,

You have no idea what the dragon pilot had to put up with that day . Technically and logically with similar speed aircraft the lower one should have preference but not always .
I have to admit that I have been guilty of venting frustration at HK ATC when they give seemingly ridiculous instructions .
ATC can you fly 320kt descent
Yes.
Okay transition to 320kts in descent
Not 2000ft into descent slow to 250kts . Followed by speed up, slow down, speed up again vectors and finally take up the hold
Frustration you bet ! so cut the dragon pilot some slack he wasn't rude, simply expressing his outrage at being the one to take the hit when clearly thought he should be number one

For all the others making joking comments about Asiana please consider how you would feel if it was your airline or friends that people were making fun of and edit your posts accordingly . It was a tragic accident and there but for the grace of God ....
We should be professionals here and not take cheap shots at other crew

As for BHead this post should never have been published every action has consequences

[bhead]

Result was, no vectoring needed, reducing the KA to 250knots at a lower level was already enough to create the spacing. Put the jumbo at higher behind an airbus at lower level requires lot more effort for the controller and the pilots.


And for all those delays for DOTMI traffic, screw the PRC it is nothing to do with ATC in HK.

And amazed to see professional pilot here thinking such a manner on frequency is ok or understandable.

Also amazed to see pilots think they know how to do ATC. Maybe that's why that pilot could make such an transmission on air and maybe thats also why some other pilots think it is ok.

Lucky majority of the pilot are nice and cooperative.

And Sync, oooh it must be very serious consequences, I am looking forward to it.

[Sqwak7700]

What number are we in sequence?
What is the reason for the delay ?
Why is the delay undetermined?
Don't you know we're Cathay????

All very reasonable inquiries.

Twotigers you are the only one I've ever heard defend the ineptitude that is Chinese ATC. That tells me, and everyone else reading, that you are somewhat clueless and inept yourself.

If Chinese ATC would be more proactive in giving you a sequence and reason for the delay they would not have to put up with such questions. This is required information in order to best make a decision, if they can't handle it, then they should be doing something else.

Next time I'm holding position on the runway in PVG and ATC clears me for takeoff I will tell them "standby, expect a delay". I'm sure they won't query me or ask for an estimate of when I will be ready for takeoff.

No worse than the constant whining of our own crews
In PEK or PVG when there's a delay.
All KA guys sit tight, while CX guys try and reinvent
Chinese ATC with there demands.

Always amazed by pilots afraid to query ATC. There are some pilots that are so afraid to ask questions or even keep ATC informed when they need to make a change. I've yet to meet a controller that agrees with that philosophy.

[Yonosoy Marinero]

It never ceases to amaze me how personally some of the guys around here take ATC instructions.

Who f*&king cares what your number is in the sequence? It's the one thing you're not accountable for. Enjoy it.
You're paid to fly, ATC's paid to tell you where to fly and someone else pays for gas and overtime.

It's either down to some serious god-complex issues, or some guys' life at home is way more fascinating than the cockpit chit-chat would let you imagine...

[twotigers]

SQUACK,

Actually it shows your ignorance.

They are NOT valid question when you're asking a party who doesn't know the answers. It's not up to the ATC you speak to. They have no idea.
The last thing they need are 30 airplanes calling every 10 minutes demanding updates.

Your attitude is an excellent example of the total ****** CX mentality that has got us here. You really are an exceptional example. :ugh:

[Sheep Guts]

Yes don't question ATC.

Even if they give the robotic instruction " Maintain 160Knots to 4 DME contact Tower now". When you are 3 miles behind the only Turbo prop in Hong Kong GOV J31/32 or what ever it is.

I'm with Yonosoy on this, just chill guys. Go with the flow, and if it turns into a doozy fill in the forms.

Don't blame the ATC guys either Mainland or Hong Kong they do it because it is written. Have a look at the Chinese AIP and read the routing descriptions. You will understand how black and white (ie. remain on the Airway A461) they are, and how it transcends into their daily operation.

[twotigers]

I'm saying delivery in China has Zero say or information
about delays. Zero. They have no idea

[Captain Dart]

China is basically a military dictatorship. Colonel Wong wants to fly his MiG copy for twenty minutes and half the country's airspace gets shut down. Their civvy controllers have little more knowledge of what's going on than we CX or KA heroes.

It astounds me how sometimes even FO's that I operate with get worked up about China and Hong Kong delays, speed control etc. I doubt very much if they, or the captains that get worked up, are substantial shareholders in their respective airlines.

I sometimes wonder about these misplaced feelings of outrage and 'ownership' when in the end, pilots are treated by their respective companies as contracted 'staff' on ever-decreasing conditions, and a necessary evil.

Who cares? Bring a good book, do the South China Post crossword, or think of the overtime.

[8888]

Is it really such a scornful attribute to 'care' about the frustrations of operating in and out of China??? I'm not saying it's wise or good for your health to care because so much of it is out of our control but as professional aviators when we see a clear and obvious, efficient and intelligent alternative that's denied time and time again occasionally there will be outbursts. I don't condone them but I can understand how they arise.

[Arfur Dent]

Ah No 8, you don't know the big picture - that's the problem. Maybe your intelligent alternative isn't that clever either. Do as your told and move on (I know it's hard but that's what we should do).
I have, in the past, called ATC and spoken to the controller who annoyed me and there was a good explanation for why he did what he did. Try that, maybe.

[twotigers]

Try that in China.

Calling ATC.. You are a douchebag

[riverr]

Guess this is a place for discussion and there's freedom of speech here...that's why some of u guys are enjoying joking and even playing drama here, and it's no big deal indeed.
But no matter what expectation the KA had..be it high speed and straight in, or delay and holding ( I bet no one really wants this including those who issue the clearance), saying such a comment on freq. was just unbelievable! ... from a professional?!
And, the lower one is usually number one in sequence?? Where does this concept come from? No wonder why the formula doesn't work...
Having a look, both OZ and KA checked in HK at the same time and the required spacing was achieved by only speed control, without any vector -- this created the LEAST workload for OVERALL traffic as well as to ATC...really, no kidding.

[twotigers]

Well sorry Dan,
But I'm sick of all this whinging.

We make things too hard.
Just go fly

Don't create stupid CX procedures, don't whine to ATC,
Don't narc on other guys.

When I arrived it was the long sleeved Brits
I was warned about. Years on, they were the best
guys. Just did the job.
That's beyond the ex Ansett lot, and other rule based Aussies that have
turned up in HK

[China Flyer]

It was a tragic accident and there but for the grace of God ....

Absolute bollocks!

Whilst I am not a god in the stick and rudder department, I will forever make fun of those "pilots" who could not fly a visual approach, in a serviceable aircraft on a fine day.

[Arfur Dent]

Well - let's all listen to the tiger. Sensible, level headed person.
( By the way, my phone call was OBVIOUSLY to HKG and not to China.)

[tadanohito]

had happened to be sitting next to the controller involved and overheard the initial verbal exchanges.

what really surprised me was that after an ATC instruction was issued to the pilot involved, there was definitely no readback of the clearance, and instead, a snide (or careless) remark was made on a frequency that was monitored by aircraft from at least three other airlines...not to mention there were a few other dragonairs in the air at that time.

i can definitely understand the need for pilots to verify an illogical clearance sometimes issued by ATC , for example a turn in the wrong direction (for i have been guilty of a few times myself...not very proudly). but to openly challenge an instruction that is so plainly part of a sequencing plan that was already in motion when both aircraft initially checked-in, just really highlights the unprofessionalism involved that day.

what i would like to understand is that, would the initial descent clearance to FL300 given to the dragon have been misconstrued as a clue to it being sequenced first? that may have explained his utter disbelief when he subsequently received a speed reduction? (we are all imperfect and we are all just trying to be better at what we do)

Secondly, what is the general take among pilots regarding such remarks on the frequency shared by many other airlines? would a silent controller after the remarks imply to other pilots that it is ok for them to make similar remarks to ATC in the future if the circumstances allow them to? and what if ATC were to make similar remarks to pilots instead, for example, "you really need to go back to school for that readback" or "captain, do you even have a map?'

i work all sectors of terminal, and believe me, i would very much love it if pilots were to call up after landing to verify or enquire why i did what i did. i will even enjoy it more if we can do it over a beer and a barbe

ta

[Al E. Vator]

I totally agree with the Dragonair pilot's comment! Surprised ATC didn't say descend to FL230 within ten miles and reduce speed to 250 kts.

But it's usually not ATC's fault, it's some folks not doing as they're asked.
Boeings might be slightly faster but there are three airlines in particular who routinely fly in from Dotmi at 230-250kts on descent, even when asked to maintain high speed. So invariably you end up doing 'S' turns behind them because dopey in front isn't comfortable flying at normal profile speeds.

Come the revolution, when I'm appointed head of HKG ATC I'm going to make a little area where I send those slow-pokes to linger at 250 kts while the those capable of operating normally zip on in with priority.
Then I'll make 'em do visual approaches.
Then I'll laugh as the second slow poke has to go around because the first guy has come to a full stop whilst trying to call Ground frequency, with his tail still protruding back into the runway.

Sorry, long day at the office.

[Gnadenburg]

Hi bhead,

On the face of it, I agree, it looks like rather an unprofessional outburst.

A very professional way to deal with it would have been to have the crew call ATC on arrival. I've done this a number of times over the years when ATC have erred, had a chat to a supervisor and asked them if they want any paperwork, which they seem to want to invariably avoid. Now, I'm all for a Utopian reporting culture, but sometimes I believe a reporting culture is enhanced when parties can sort out minor issues themselves without resorting to a dobbing culture. This just sees everyone on edge.

I had an incident myself once, called ATC, had a chat and told them what had happened and thankfully they didn't want any paperwork either. It was so minor but I wasn't in the mood to be lambasted by our Monday morning quarterbacks who can be rather disengaged from the realities of line flying.

Most Dragonair pilots should be able to execute a high speed descent that should extend the separation. Perhaps being a local carrier it could be procedural? It is very frustrating being put as number two to an aircraft you know will slow up early because they either can't fly jets very well or get paid by the minute! Just the other day I offered to maintain 340kts until 5 miles from River and this seemed to clear the separation issues quite convincingly.

So yep, I think we'd all rather deal with each other on minor issues over the phone. It's all so cordial and I think builds a better environment. Dragonair seems to sack a lot of pilots and something like this can be blown way out of all proportions. I'm not an apologist for this outburst, I just know there are better ways of dealing with this than what you've indicated.

[Molokai]

If the culprit was a real professional he wouldn't be in KA, would he? Possibly a CX reject?:ok:

[Gnadenburg]

You sent us an exchange chief pilot pilot once and he said stuff like that all the time. I thought he was joking and I admired his comedy routine. :}

I sit in a 5 mile trail behind you guys within 30 miles of the airport and you are 5000' lower on TCAS. What are you doing down there? We get hammered on fuel efficiencies so what's with your SOP of being thousands of feet below profile?

[Absolutely Fabulous]

for f**ksakes, we are not professionals :ugh:

the professionals retired long ago :rolleyes:

we are simply whinny, spoilt brats, that are God's gift to aviation with a great sense of entitlement, so get use to it :p

[giggerty]

Go Easy on the CX boys. You probably did more take offs and landings in the last year than many of the Long Haulers will do in their career with CX. When you are not as current you have to be conservative. You don't want to mess up the one landing you get this month.

Whilst I don't condone the KA pilots comments I can appreciate it. China is one hell of a frustrating place to fly in, so you kind of hope for good treatment back at your home port. This last week has seen China slip back to it's massive delays best. The closest I have come to being on time this week is 1 1/2 hours late. It's mostly weather related, but honestly the weather is not that bad. A few lines of CBs. The US and Europe would have minimal delays for the same weather.

ATC in China could really benefit from having exchanges overseas to see how real ATC is done. Being forced to leave your nice comfortably cruising altitude at 2500 ft/min to sit in the clouds at 18000 ft still 300nm from your destination does get a bit tiring. As far as I can see the only reason is because there is no coordination between sectors.

The thing is, there is absolutely nothing you can do about it. So you can either get all steamed up or lie back and think of England. It just depends on your personality.

[airdualbleedfault]

FWIW :
It doesn't help to think about overtime whilst being delayed in China as most airlines pay o/t on stick hours, so 2 hours delay amounts to diddly squat financially.
As for the higher aircraft having a better TAS (assuming not a great difference in VMO/MMO) then I guess it's back to school for me, here I thought that most jets best TAS is around FL280 :ugh:

[VR-HFX]

Two alternatives...PAN or DIAZEPAM. Recommend the latter as there's less paperwork involved:ok:

[White None]

airdualbleedfault

I agree with you wholeheartedly - let us know how your lessons go:D

[chards]

giggerty, although as Cx pilots we have many shortcomings, I can assure you that descending below anything other than a Vnav profile is not one of them. Just like you, in Hk we go down when told and not second earlier, not sure where you get you're sh-t from.

[chards]

Yeah and I forgot that Ka are the only Airline that know how to fly in China- it's really difficult you know.

[8888]

Well Chards, there's more than one way to 'go down' and not all of them involve getting to your lower level asap. Nobody here said flying in China was difficult. It's been said it's f&^(ing frustrating. There's a big difference.

[giggerty]

Hey Chards.
Didn't mean to offend. Was really just having a dig at molakai for the dumb comment. I have absolutely no doubt that CX crew are as professional as KA.
I have flown with several carriers and KA is probably the toughest standards wise. Talking to CX drivers I'm sure it's the same there. I really don't believe there is a great deal of difference, even if you don't do the sectors we do.

[Trafalgar]

Please. Can we close this rapidly becoming useless thread? Good grief, don't we have bigger issues to deal with?

[Gnadenburg]

Sort your own side out. What's with the weirdness and chip in the banter?

Moving on…. A phone call would be better in sorting issues like this out and a procedural high speed descent would be helpful too for KA. Especially the 320.

Also, it wouldn't hurt be if controllers were aware of descent profiles and the fact that many airlines seem to be guilty of descending well below profile and configuring early for whatever reason including the blind following of an FMGC profile. TAS differentials can exacerbate separation- it's not uncommon to be in trail with aircraft 5000ft + lower and I've seen one carrier whose name I won't mention ( due banter sensitivities ) being right at the lower extreme of TCAS criterion.

[The FUB]

A the end of the day the KA guy has just spoken what we are all thinking, and also keeping the rest on the frequency users amused. Some operators out there use 95% if their capacity to tx an RT call which is probably why ATC don't give certain call sign difficult instructions.

The end.

[White None]

Tosser.....

[airdualbleedfault]

Whitenone, stick to eating sandwiches and making bunks champ :D

[White None]

1) Hilariously incorrect assumption.

2) So Err... you're a TT Fan?? !

3) You never did get back to us about those lessons.....