Shut Up Baldrick!

[ShotOne]

I see Baldrick has put himself into the front line having a pop at the Education Secretary for his comments about teaching First World War history. This shouldn't be a surprise given Mr Robinson's background as a long-time Labour supporter but does this qualify him as a historical authority? Blackadder has long been one of my favourite tv series. But if it's allowed to become a historical reference that's surely a cause for concern?

[A and C]

The reason that Black Adder was more than just another TV comedy was that it captured the black humor that was likely to have been the standard response to life in the trenches and the views was of those fighting under such appalling conditions.

It would have been very hard to maintain a wide historically and politically accurate view from a trench in Flanders.

Mr Grove is looking at the wider picture, Baldrick is firmly stuckin the trench ( as was my Grandad )

[FrustratedFormerFlie]

For the record, it was Gove who fired the first shot, criticising teachers for being overly-accepting of a version of events peddled by loony lefties in such as Monocled Mutineer, Oh What a lovely War and Blackadder. Gove failed to note that one of these was based on The Donkeys by that well know loonie lefty Rt Hon Sir Alan Clarke MP (Conservative).

Sir Tony Robinson's response that Blackadder was not a rewriting of history but a satire on events did not impress Gove, whose office elected to ignore Sir Tony's honour in their response that "Tony is wrong"

I attended a school with a proud history of preparing young men for (among many other things) service in the armed forces. At school, I took pert in a production of Oh What a lovely War in the school's great hall - the walls of which were hung with literally hundreds of photographs of former pupils who had been killed in WW1 and WW2. And after rehearsals I went out on the parade square with the resty of the CCF unit.

My school did not share the Secreatary of State's paranoia about the discussion in school of varying perspectives on events - indeed it encouraged it. Study, analysis and discussion were among the things the school taught best. Maybe our education system would be better served if we had a Secretary of State who shared those priorities, rather than this one's obsession with (Tory-approved) 'facts, facts, facts'.

[NutLoose]

I'm just suprised we haven't rewritten the history of the First World War so that the Germans won, to prevent us offending them, such is the rush to be PC in this Country.


.

[teeteringhead]

I'm just suprised we haven't rewritten the history of the First World War so that the Germans won, Well they're getting close!

Good piece by BoJo in yesterday's Torygraph refuting the (apparently!!) current view that the Hun didn't start WW1 (!!) and it was all the fault of Serbia and Turkey.

Don't think it was them that went into France through neutral Luxemburg and Belgium in accordance with the 1905 Schleiffen Plan - don't think Schlieffen was a Turk either ..........

[Molemot]

In France, all the commemorative plaques which used to read "Fusillee par les Allemands" now read "Victimes de la barbarie Nazie"...so NutLoose isn't far from the truth.

[Pontius Navigator]

WW1 was such a huge canvas that the battles and loss of life on the Western front dominate most thinking of the conflict.

It is a while back since I studied it but I believe it was Austro-Hungaria that wanted to suppress the Serbs, they needed a guarantee that Germany would stop Russian interference. The Kaiser more or less turned a blind eye. The Russians began to mobilise which essentially was a mass troop movement from north to south.

Once fully mobilised the Russians could have turned west and using mass swept through Germany. The Schlieffen Plan required that Germany defeat France and then attack Russia thus avoiding a simultaneous war on two fronts.

The main premise was that Russia could not be allowed to mobilise with France as a potential aggressor in the west, the plan's main flaw was that it was an offensive plan rather than defensive.

Another factor was that France had just increased its conscription for 2 years to 3.

Equally the British had started in 1911 to increase its Army through recruitment of a Territorial Force. Remember also the naval arms race with Britain building battleships faster than Germany.

The world in the early part of the 20th Century was not the peaceful state we are led to believe.

[Willard Whyte]

I don't give a stuff whether lefty Tony Robinson has been knighted. Such an honour is utterly devalued by giving it to sportspeople and others of equally no particular note.

[Pontius Navigator]

WW,

You get the honour because it goes with the promotion - either the job or the media.

The unknowns get a gong too because they were nominated.

Nice to look at the list but I agree, just because you can act, or have a good back-hand, does that merit a knighthood.

Roll on Jeeves. Wonder why that footballer hasn't got one. For sportsmen they should have an age limit, no K before 50-55. In fact give out the gongs at the same age (rank) level in the Services/CS. That Tennis player should only have had an MBE and got the O this year.

[ShotOne]

I agree, Pontius although the issue is less the detail of how it started, rather what happens to anyone who dares contradict the left-wing agenda that it was all pointless buffoonery

[satsuma]

Willard - who should knighthoods be restricted to then? Just corporate, governmental and military elite? Do tell.


Lots of complicating factors but I think Austro-Hungary felt that a brief suppression of the Serbs would be a quick slap on the wrist that would take no longer than the Balkan wars of the preceding two years. Didn't turn out that way though because of the LEAVE MY MATE ALONE aspect.


Gove really shouldn't have opened his mouth. Totally unnecessary and likely to lead to more bigoted anti-European sentiment that UKIP will just lap up.

[ShotOne]

Satsuma, points one and two, agree totally. Point three, Gove is the Education Secretary. He is absolutely entitled to voice an opinion on how history is taught. If you don't like his opinion, vote him out. Nobody voted for Baldrick!

[sitigeltfel]

I don't give a stuff whether lefty Tony Robinson has been knighted. Such an honour is utterly devalued by giving it to sportspeople and others of equally no particular note.

Very true.

When you look at the duties a Knight was traditionally expected to perform in deference to his liege lord and sovereign, the current lot of title holders cast a sorry shadow on those who were the original bearers of the rank.

Can you imagine, in the time of conflict, the likes of Beckham, McCartney, Elton John, Robinson et al, rising to the defence of their country? I bet most of them would scarper off to their tax exile homes until it had all blown over.

[satsuma]

sitigeltfel - It's 2014. What are you on about?


ShotOne - he was trying to score unprovoked political points over subject matter so serious and tragic that it left a very sour taste in the mouth. Tristram Hunt rightly put him in his place although I doubt you'll have read that article.

[Basil]

IMO Gove is absolutely correct to demand that comedic satire is not presented as history. By all means show film but let's make it documentary footage of the real thing.

[Pontius Navigator]

Curiously, down in what was left of the weeds, the reality was often at odds with collective perception.

What of the Chinese trench and grave diggers?

Aside from the major battles, troops might spend only a week at a time in the trenches.

One relative (wife's grandfather) was requested to accept overseas service whilst in the Territorial Force. After his one year contract in France he was invited to extend his service - he declined.

It was not like WW2 where you signed up for the duration.

[Heathrow Harry]

Pontius - both my grandfather and Mrs Harry's served in WW1 and I have their signing on papers - they were open ended but you did have to sign that you would serve overseas in the first place

This was relic of the old Militia who wouldn't serve overseas during the Napoleonic Wars

[ORAC]

It is a while back since I studied it but I believe it was Austro-Hungaria that wanted to suppress the Serbs, they needed a guarantee that Germany would stop Russian interference. The Kaiser more or less turned a blind eye. And I studied it at University in December, and you are incorrect.

The German's were incredibly afraid of Russia and it's industrialisation, they had to go to war but their experts told them they only had a window between 1914-1917 before it would be too late. Their battle plan required they defeat France before turning on Russia - and also involved going through Belgium to do so.

They tried twice to instigate a war between 1910-1914, this was their third attempt. They effectively forced the Austrians into the war with Serbia by insisting of draconian conditions and guaranteeing full backing. Even at the last, when the Kaiser yet again had cold feet, the Chancellor changed the text of his cable to the Austrians to force the war. Upon the declaration the German foreign office celebrated.

The German's started the war, coldly and deliberately.

fritz Fischer - Germany’s Aims in the First World War (http://husky1.stmarys.ca/~wmills/course520/fischer.html)

[woptb]

Its not satire presented as the truth. Its one view of the Great War thats used to encourage debate,as in "how truthful is the picture of the Great War as portrayed in Blackadder".
Gove is utterly wrong about this, as someone might well be who has never stood in front of a class, except for some PR stunt.

Someone who has never had to inspire or engage in the classroom. You use all the tools at your disposal,if watching Blackadder starts a debate,job done.

I suspect most of the comments are a 'kneejerk',because Lord Baldrick happens to be a lefty.

[Pontius Navigator]

ORAC, agree, but I wouldn't agree that I was quite wrong.

[airpolice]

Orac

And I studied it at University in December, and you are incorrect.

The German's were incredibly

What a shame that you didn't study English as hard as you seem to have studied History.

[glad rag]

Is December a German town?:ooh:

[Canadian Break]

ORAC/PN. You are both correct, there were a multitude of long and short term causes, not the least of which was Germany's assertion that they too had the right to a place in the sun. Although ORAC chooses to suggest an author to lend weight to his argument the are lots of others who would question his choice - rightly so, just as all the others should be questioned and not taken a face value. CB sends

[langleybaston]

Quote:
Equally the British had started in 1911 to increase its Army through recruitment of a Territorial Force.

The TF was formed in 1908 "from" the old Volunteer Force and neither were intended for other than home defence. Far from increasing the size of the army, both Regular, TF and Special Reserve recruiting and retention were on a slow downward path caused by many factors including poor army pay and a slow improvement in the lot and education of the working class man.

GB was in a very defensive posture ["what I have I hold"] and there was great reluctance to embark on a continental war, knowing that our forces were, although professional, very limited, and conscription unthinkable.

Whoever else started it, we did not. Whoever else lost it, we did not.
Sound familiar?

[ORAC]

Although ORAC chooses to suggest an author to lend weight to his argument the are lots of others who would question his choice - rightly so I deliberately selected the German historian who intensively delved into the original German source material.

[Shack37]

airpolice


Orac
Quote:



And I studied it at
University in December, and you are incorrect.

The German's were
incredibly
What a shame that you didn't study English as hard as you seem to have
studied History.


Which bit didn't you understand?

[satsuma]

Back to school Shack 37.

[Shack37]

Back to school Shack 37.


5/10, no gap between Shack and 37.;)

[BARKINGMAD]

Try reading "Losing Small Wars" and see how the "Donkeys" are still leading the "Lions" in our current misguided efforts, latterly Iraq and currently A'stan.

And above them are the "Dinosaurs" at Mod, responsible for even more cockups including strategy and wasting money on procurement of crap kit.

Gove should have kept his ghastly mouth firmly shut on the topic, especially as quoting Blackadder only serves to highlight that series' satirical take on how conflicts were run through the ages.

If Gove is so smart, how come the "Free Schools" now in trouble were signed through on his watch? Maybe more concentration on education and less on how the Establisment's arrogance is punctured and brought low by a TV series, would show him to be a man of intelligence and not a newspaper headline chaser like the rest of the Commons' shysters!

[NutLoose]

http://www.zerkelmotorwerks.com/stuff7/litcat.jpg

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

I find it frustrating that things are so, black and white, simplified. The first lot wasn't a simple, single, event. there was a shed load of history behind it, not least the Franco Prussian War and Bismark's unification. The holes in the cheese lined up and we did what we do best; made a fist of it. Oh to be a 1SL or CIGS under democratically elected (dependent) Government.

How many lessons did we learn from the 2nd Boer War and America's Civil War? I suspect very little as we didn't understand the significance of what we were looking at. Cue the 2nd lot.

[woptb]

Whilst not wishing to characterise all journalists as low life scum bags,Michael Gove was a journalist before becoming a Tory MP - happy to put most politicians in this category.
Gove has an English degree (one up from a Desmond),has never worked in or studied education.In my opinion, he is not only eminently qualified to give an opinion on the conduct of the reat War,he is also (evidently) a gifted educationalist,huzaaaaah!

[Canadian Break]

ORAC - a noted Revisionist, but are you sure you got the right one?

[Airey Belvoir]

And above them are the "Dinosaurs" at Mod, responsible for even more cockups including strategy and wasting money on procurement of crap kit.


The dinosaurs were the cadets that were going through the system when I was a flt cdr. During that period there was a huge push to graduate aircrew virtually no matter what their failings, on the grounds that flying training would rub off the rough edges. From that time they rose through the ranks having done both operational and staff tours. Most of the decision making is, and has always been, done by the much lauded 2-winged master race. So, for blame for crap decision making try looking in the mirror.

[Basil]

there was a huge push to graduate aircrew virtually no matter what their failings
Thank f**k! Got ME a career :}

[Canadian Break]

ORAC - my apologies, for some reason I recalled him as Hans Fischer, not Fritz. However, my other comments still stand.

[thunderbird7]

Of course Michael Gove knows all about schools - he went to one!!!

[Heathrow Harry]

Gove's problem is that he can't ever, ever shut up and pass by on the other side

I suspect he starts arguing when he sees himself in the mirror in the morning

Kids these days know more about WWI than we did in the 50's & 60's - they support the Poppy Appeal and are always ready to listen to veterans - they CAN tell the difference between a comedian and Baldrick

[Lonewolf_50]

My grandmother's first husband, father of her first daughter (my oldest aunt, RIP) lived with her in the northern part of Serbia (Vojvodina region) when the Austro_Serbian bit of the Great War began in earnest. When Serbia were at last beaten, a number of men like him were conscripted by the Austrian Army (Austro-Hungarian Army?) who needed more troops to fight the Russians.

He ended up serving on the Eastern Front. He was in a battle where gas was used. He died of it. As my aunt told it, he was at home in the village when he finally died, but he had arrived in terrible shape after being discharged. :mad: That gas be some nasty stuff.

My grandmother was now a widow (in a village that is no longer is found on maps of that part of the world). She ended up, in 1919, taking her five year old daughter to Trieste (grandma was one of the few people in her village who could read and write), getting on a ship (steerage class) and heading to America. A distant relative had wired her money for the passage from the US.

She hit New York, went past the Statue of Liberty and to Ellis Island, and ended up on a train to Western Pennsylvania, settling a bit north of Pittsburgh. Steel country.

There she met my grandfather, another immigrant from over there. They married, had two kids (my father and his sister, the younger aunt who is still alive) and did OK until he died of pneumonia in 1938 (before penicillain was available).

Grandma had a hard life, but she was a tough cookie. She raised her kids to be Americans, no hyphen, and made them learn good English and use it. (Her English remained heavily accented her whole life, per my aunt's telling of her childhood). She was strict about them doing well in school. (The Viet Namese emigres from after VN war that I have met are strikingly similar, in the patterns and priorities, to my grandma.)

Where I am and who I am is due, in part, to The Great War. It had a profound ripple effect, eh?

Jan Bloch, a Polish industrialist, published in 1898 a lengthy analysis of modern fire arms and warfare. His analysis on the state of arms versus armies was pretty much spot on. (A small group of us had to read, and present on, this massive work of his while I was at staff college). The summary in Wikipedia gets it about right. (I wonder if Bloch lived long enough to read Rommel's book about WW I infantry fighting, called "Infantry Attacks").
Bloch argued that: New arms technology (e.g. smokeless gunpowder, improved rifle design, Maxims) had rendered maneuvers over open ground, such as bayonet and cavalry charges, obsolete. Bloch concluded that a war between the Great powers would be a war of entrenchment and that rapid attacks and decisive victories were likewise a thing of the past.

He calculated that entrenched men would enjoy a fourfold advantage over infantry advancing across open ground.

Industrial societies would have to settle the resultant stalemate by committing armies numbering in the millions, as opposed to the tens of thousands of preceding wars.

An enormous battlefront would develop. A war of this type could not be resolved quickly.

The war would become a duel of industrial might, a matter of total economic attrition. Severe economic and social dislocations would result in the imminent risk of famine, disease, the "break-up of the whole social organization" and revolutions from below.
Lessons learned? Right. :p

It's 2014. Gas, for example, is still being used, as it was between Iraq and Iran, and most recently in Syria. Iran used, it is reported, human wave / mass infantry attacks during their war with Iraq.

The Great Powers still pursue their ends, and occasionaly used armed force to do it.

Nothing new under the sun.

ORAC, you source intrigues me, I'll need to have a look. One of Bismarck's talents lay in his diplomatic intrigues and deals. One of his aphorisms was, roughly, "where there are five powers, make sure you arrange to be on the side of the three, not of the two." He had some success in achieving that after the Franco Prussian war of 1870-71. By the time Kaiser Willie the Deuce (Dunce??) got involved in power politics, the Kaiser and his various governments were unable to apply that dictum, which led to the strategic imperative often cited about having to get France put down quickly to deal with Russia and avoid a two front war.