US vs. Singapore (or Asia)

[sport08]

I'm not sure if this belongs to the North America or Asia forum since it involves both regions. Does anyone know if there are better opportunities in the US or Singapore for females to be hired by the airlines? Also, which country has a higher demand for airline pilots in the near future? I have to choose between US or Singapore citizenship (I'm not allowed to have both), and would like to have some insights on both countries' aviation industry. Thank you.

[loveflyingalways]

In US you will live like a slave. You will be flying small jets most of you're life by the time you get to a major (Boeing or Airbus) you're definitely going to run out of black hair. Pilots in regionals are treated really bad.
Singapore currently has few jobs but in near future it's going to open up big and most importantly Singapore license is as good as JAA/EASA. In Singapore you have a really good chance of getting you're first break directly into a major airline

[N5748E]

Go to USA, I was in your exact same shoes. The SG citizenship is actually a weight slowly pulling you under.

If you need more info just PM me.

[itsbrokenagain]

Remember in the USA there is more to life than the mundane world of airline flying, lots of corporate jets work brings in good money and just like in the airlines sometimes a nice lifestyle.... its pretty rare to get a corporate job in Singapore

[Metro man]

Singapore Airlines don't employ female pilots, Silk Air, Tiger, Scoot and Jetstar do.

[Plastic fantastic]

Just try and take your Singapore Licence to EASA or any Euro Operator and you will soon see what they think of it!

[captjns]

Sport08, what are your credentials at this time? Where are you in your career? Your citizenship? If you are at the beginning, can't predict what the situation will be 5 years from now.

[Droste]

(1)
There are some Singaporeans holding dual citizenships. (I am no kidding, holding two passports).

Hidden loop hole, to go around.

(2)
1. Singapore aviation industry does not favour the locals.
2. CAAS license is good to use in Singapore and Malaysia only.

(3)
In U.S., there are many flying jobs to build hours. Whereas in Singapore, got flying job for you meh?!

(4)
Singaporeans can't wait to get out and you are coming in? Do you know that every year there are many Singaporeans migrated? Singapore Gov't dare not to release the figure.

[sport08]

captjns, thanks for asking. I have FAA commercial single engine land, multi engine land, and single engine sea certificates. I have about 400 hours now, about 53 of which are in multi-engine aircraft. Unfortunately, I do not have any turboprop or jet time. I would have to convert my licenses to the CAAS ones if I want to work in SG, and the conversion process is long and expensive. I'm currently in the US doing my Masters in Aero Engineering, and graduate in Dec 2013. I was initially leaning towards staying in the US, but felt that the percentage of pilots who get an airline/corporate position is not that different from in SG. But I don't know enough about both industries to make comparisons, and so am trying to get other people's opinions.

Droste, I tried to find loopholes. But the SG govt said that they want to see proof of my US citizenship renunciation, so I can't find a way around that.

[Droste]

Believe it or not, Singapore is the only country in the whole world that gives permanet residency to foreigners like water. There is no other country like Singapore! Do some research, you'll know.

If you were to give up Singapore Citizenship, you still can get a blue i/c one day. Singapore Government mentioned that it has tightened the immigration. Bull****. I have reliable news from top ICA. The number of people getting blue/pink ic never changed. Foreigners are still swamping in like mad till this stage.

Your US Master Degree in Aerospace is demanding. Any coy in seletar will grab you. By the time, you want to apply for S'pore PR, don't tell me that difficult.

U.S recently relaxed it's immigration policy. Master Degree holders and above can apply for H1B visa. The USCIS rules begin to change. It is tough to get greencard/citizenship in the past but not difficult as it used to be.

There are vast of flying job opportunites in US. You can easily rack up the hours! For Singaporeans to build hours not easy unless you got an airline job. If you are a Singaporean and can't get airline job, you are grounded forever and you can't go back to the States again. By the time US Govt requires you to find a sponsor for your H1B visa.

[bigduke6]

US allows dual citizenship, so do both and don't tell the Singaporeans.

[sport08]

bigduke6, i didn't tell the singaporeans. somehow they managed to track me down and are pretty persistent..

[SFC172N]

In the us and most other countries, having a local cpl makes it easier to get a flying job. Though the pay may be low due competition for jobs.

In Singapore, trying to land a jet job without experience (jet hours) and type rating is almost impossible. Getting a instructing gig also impossible. You are better off without a license or with a ppl for airline self sponsored direct intake.

[sport08]

How about corporate pilot jobs in SG? Is it a feasible career option?

Additionally, are there any people who volunteer as pilots in SG? For eg. in the US, there's Angel Flight and Civil Air Patrol, is there something similar in SG?

SFC172N, yes one of my concerns is the pay for pilots in the US. I found out that the average pay is about 18-20k for regional pilots who already have many flight hours.

If regional pilots are getting that amount, I'm assuming that the pilots who are trying to build those flight hours must earn even less? I don't mind that since I get paid doing what I love, but I'm trying to understand how they support their families.

[N5748E]

Regional pilots? I know a guy who flies by day, and by night he works in a bar, and on his 2 days off he works as a tradie (construction worker). So much for minimum rest, FDP, etc.

Anyway, corporate jet jobs in sg are almost non-existant. In my whole time in WSSL all I saw is 2 old learjets with 9V on it. The rest of the jets had PK on them so they are probably Indonesian tycoons in sg shopping along Orchard Rd or going to the casino, ops, I mean integrated resorts.

[SFC172N]

And the 2 9V belongs to ST, pilots are probably 99% ex airforce or people with connections to land that job.

[burnable gomi]

Sport,

My opinion would be to stay in the US. yes regional jobs pay crap as an FO but they're not too horrible as a captain. With the mass retirements coming up, if you pick the right regional you could be a captain relatively quickly. Regionals are also not the only option. There are lots of options. Some pay better than others, some have better lifestyles than others, some are better for career advancement than others, it all depends what you want. You don't have those options in Singapore. You've either got the SQ family, Tiger, or Jetstar Asia. Do SQ even take people who aren't ab initio cadets? While the pay is certainly better at those airlines than at US regionals, it is still low by international standards especially when considering the high cost of living in Singapore. Not to mention the lifestyle at those airlines is not ideal. Singapore is not exactly a bastion of employee and labor rights.

If you can figure out a way to keep both passports, at least for a few years my advice would be to try to get a job with Tiger/Jetstar in Singapore for a few years and then go back to the US. That should allow you to skip the US regional step and jump straight to a major or LCC in the US. If you're forced to give it up ASAP I personally would stick with the US. It might suck early in your career but you'll have far more options as you gain more experience. Starting out as a pilot is difficult and not very rewarding anywhere in the world right now, but at least the US has plenty of opportunities once you do have experience. Not to mention if you really do want to work in Asia in the future there is plenty of demand for experienced expats, sometimes even in Singapore.

Were you born in the US? If so I would think that even if you gave up your passport you should be able to get it back again later. That's just a guess though.

[sport08]

burnable gomi, Thanks for your opinion. I didn’t realize lifestyles at airlines in SG are not ideal. I always have the impression that the pay is good and the crew gets sufficient rest between flights as compared to what pilots in the US have. Additionally, aren't airlines in SG trying to dilute the foreign workforce? I thought that was why SQ was letting foreign pilots go. And yes I was born in the US.

By the way, out of curiosity, are there any civilian test pilot jobs in SG? If changes are made to an aircraft specifically for an airline either before or during its service period, do they get test pilots to conduct flight tests or is everything brought back to the aircraft’s original manufacturer?

[wonderland]

Civilian test pilot jobs in sg? Well, nope. None

[wonderland]

Oh and sg will never do away with foreign pilots, the local systems do not have the ability to provide local pilots to meet the demands of all the airlines in sg.

[highflyer40]

the citizenship thing is a red herring. No country can make you give up citizenship. whether you turn in your passport or not the fact you were born in the US means you are a citizen for life. So jump through whatever hoops SG wants you too then turn around an get a new US passport.

[N5748E]

Easiest thing to do, talk to you embassy. They deal with this dual citizen issues on a daily basis. They were most helpful when I had the same problem when I was 21.

[sport08]

Yeah I already did that. The US side said that they can't do anything and the SG side insists on keeping the dateline, so I'm trying to find an attorney who has dealt with this before to find out if it's possible to get my US citizenship back if lose it.

Thanks for everyone's advice though. Seems like US is still the place to be if I want to minimize the effects of the worst case scenario, at the minimum there's still general aviation and I get to fly.

[Geebz]

The US is by no means perfect. And our global imperialism and invasion of countless sovereign states almost drives me to regularly consider giving up my own US citizenship (watch "Dirty Wars" Jeremy Scahill). It disgusts me what our tax dollars go to pay for some times.

But for all our errors and misgivings as a nation, we are, IMO, still the best deal out there. Sure some Nordic and Western countries get higher ratings but I don't do cold!!! I don't care how beautiful Sweden or Finland is. Those are places I visit, not work/ live out of. And most countries tax their citizens way more than ours does. The fact is, there is no utopia as a nation on our planet as yet but the US offers the best all-around opportunities to it's citizenry vs most other nations. Sure some nations have better "this or that" but cherry picking your data when decision making leads to ominous results. Giving up your US citizenship for SG would be, in my opinion, a huge mistake.

The US is so vast and with that comes plenty of opportunity both in and out of aviation. And this job isn't only about the planes we fly, it's about lifestyle. Isn't it more ideal to be in a region where there are plenty of options outside flying? In SG you options are limited, at best. I've been there dozens of times. It's a nice place. I wouldn't want to live there though.

As far as which country is a better career path, the US for sure. So what if you have to teach flying for 1,000 hrs, then fly turboprops and regional jets for another 5,000. We've all done it. THAT is how you build experience. Experience is what makes a good pilot/ captain, not necessarily flying skills. The fact is, we all have the skills. Sure some are better than others but we all land the planes at the same runways and shoot the same RNAV/ ILSs to the same airports. Yet it's the years of building that solid experience that allows you to have a database to reference for judgement when problems arise.

But the US pays off for more reasons than the aforementioned.

I am at a point in my career where I get more than half the month off and gross $250,000+ in an average year PLUS another $40,000/ yr in retirement contributions paid for by my employer. I get mostly free travel, and I can live anywhere in the world if I'm willing to commute. Or I can live in domicile and chose West Coast, East Coast, North or South. You don't get that in Singapore. So I've got a pretty good career. But it took me 20+ years (since college) to get here. I had over 8,000 hrs by the time I was hired by a major carrier. That's probably about average these days. Sure there are some minorities and/ or women who get in with a bit less hours. But even they have at least 5,000 hrs, save for the occasional "son", "daughter" "intern". Those are the exception. For me, I didn't have any connections so I went the way 90% of us do, long hard slog to gaining all that experience. But it was fun the whole way as I was learning and building my hours. The point is, it can be done... regardless of how hard anyone says it may be.

I speak with a lot of younger aviators these days who are trying to figure out why their career has stalled out. Somehow they compare where they are to where I am. That's like a med school student comparing himself to an established physician with a mature medical practice. Some are disillusioned because of what they've been told, that they can go from zero hours to A320/ B737 cockpit in a year. Some get duped by the pilot training mills of the world. Well, what can I say? They are victims of a highly unregulated business (the so-called pay-for-training schemes). Some just never envisioned spending 5-10 years flying smaller planes before they can get a job at an established major carrier. But that's not a reason to give up. In this business, only the one who keep pursuing their goal make it. That and the heavily connected. But unless you're in the latter category (most of us aren't), you must maintain the drive to keep striving for that next level in aviation. Do that and, I promise you, eventually you will "make it".

I was sitting on the jumpseat of a 70-seat RJ a few months ago. Both the Captain and FO were marveling at where I am in my career vs where they are. They were telling me how hard it was to fly for a US regional vs a major. Of course, having flown for a regional for 9 years, I sympathized with their position... until I began quizzing them. The Captain was 25, the FO was 26. Both were flying a 70 seat RJ. Both were wondering why no major had called them up yet. Duh! They hadn't the competitive experience yet. They were probably competing with candidates who had 5,000 more hours and 5-7 years more experience. One hadn't yet applied to any major (how can you complain about not getting hired if you haven't even yet filled out the applicaiton?). The other only applied one month prior. In vast contrast, I have a buddy who has been flying for the same US regional airline for 17 years. He is college-educated, has a flawless flying record. He has nearly 15,000 hrs and over 9,000 PIC jet. He has interviewed at SWA, Alaska, United, and Delta. His father was a Captain for Continental, his uncle a Captain for United and other uncle a Captain for American. He has everything going for him but still hasn't been picked up by a US Major/ Legacy carrier yet. Now he has plenty to bitch about. Yet he keeps plugging along filling out app after app to every US carrier he can think of and keeps a pretty good attitude about it all along the way. He's enjoying the ride of his career and he'll ultimately be better off for that than for being bitter about it.

Soooooo... in a nutshell, it can be a long way to flying big jets at a major but your life in the US will be better than in SG or anywhere else in Asia. This coming from an aviator who has actually lived and worked throughout Asia. Don't get me wrong, I love Asia. Live there now. But the opportunities in the US are vast indeed.

[sport08]

Just a thought on something I read today: If the US has so many opportunities, why are pilots leaving for jobs in Asia, South Africa, etc.?

[Wannabe Flyer]

If you were born in the USA then you can get your citizenship anytime, however if SG terms dual citizenship as illegal no matter what hoop you jump thru if caught you will be in trouble. The other angle to look at is taxation. IF you are a US citizen you have to pay taxes on your global income. IF you have dual and in SG you will be in trouble with either the IRS or the SG govt. when you ask for your tax relief certificate.

If you are not getting your USA citizenship by birth then think again about giving it up. Also the US govt frowns on people who give up citizenship to avoid taxes and chances of you getting it again will be costly and painful. Look up the FB guy who gave it up, if he ever wants to get it again he needs to pay all his back taxes......

In the end in my opinion with a US passport you stand a chance of working in SG within or outside of flying but with a SG passport doubtful you will get a job preference in the USA.

For better or for worse keep the US passport and give up SG if illegal as you do not want to be on the wrong side of the law in the profession you have chosen.....

[highandlow]

First of all have a good read of the rplies of Bornable Gomi (? Sorry spelling ) and Geebz, really good realistic facts from both of them . If I may say .... First of all , you and only you should think or know what you really want ! I mean do you really want , enjoy to be a pilot !!!! Do you enjoy being in an airplane , do you enjoy seeing your office with an everyday change of view ( which is super , as my office gives me everyday new views ) but do you want to fly or is it just ooooh it seems cool ? Only you can answer this ! Also , what I mean is do you only want to live in Singapore or can you / or willing to live abroad ?
To answer your question , from my side and pls read again the other two mentionned guys/ girls..... If you want to fly with an airline .... Stay in US , and yes I am not American or Green Card holder , but USA gives you so much more options at your level . Singapore only few airlines as SQ , Scoot etc .... So You dnt have a Sing license why would you spent time and money on this licence better get any real flying , and I hope you are not " good" enough to do the simple flying .....meaning take any flying hour you can grab cause this is gold! Especially in USA just go around your area, you probl hv a few airports , myb just start talking to anybody who is walking towards or around an aircraft and yes why not use that female smile , why not ! ( hey guys no need reactions but life is life ) .....
If can get few hours turbo , and keep sending CV , you know in Asia there will be plenty of opportunities in the many coming years .....ok you will need jet ....but still many good jobs in Asia without the need of jet . But these airlines want to see some real flying time , even just twin/ turbo which still can bring you in the seat of a nice jet ..... Believe me , but most of the recruiters like some attitude , have the passion !
And I was too one day in your shoes , and now I am happily flying ..... And yes happy in Asia .....
For me ....just stay in USA and get some real flying and you will have realistic opportunities in Asia to fly nice jets or even in the States .....
And PS believe me SQ is not that great employer , many much better ones giving better benefits .
Many years ago , me too thinking SQ must be great , only SQ good for pax but not staff ! Just check out their staff ID travel ...... They have any ????
There is more besides SIN ....
Once again have a good read of Geebz and Bornable Gomi ......
Good luch and if you really enjoy flying just go for it and do not think too much !

[highandlow]

Just a quick reply on your last post .... Why pilots leaving for China , SouthAfrica( this country ?) . Yes China , here jobs with good money on paper for captains .... What I think , most of captains go China cause they lost the job back home or big pay increase but believe me, they are there cause they have too ! With all respect for China the country and the people of China but the flying in China is quiet stressfull and the living in the cities ....as a foreigner ..... Needs a lot of adjustments ......
Same and even better packages still avail outside China .... Once again ....what do you want !

[CodyBlade]

''Yet it's the years of building that solid experience that allows you to have a database to reference for judgement when problems arise.''

You can fly my kids over the Pacific anytime.

[expat400]

sports08

burnable and Geebz have summed it up pretty well. And, as Highandlow says; Asia is a place to go for experienced captains, not for aspiring pilots.

Good luck with your career!

[Flyboat North]

Both Tiger and Jetstar Asia (through CTC & Oxford) have cadetships which will take you from never having flown to A320 FO in around 18 months, only open to Singapore Citizens and permanent residents (check PRs) so there is another use for your Sing passport - 100% self funded. Still competitive but nothing compared to competition for now defunct SIA cadetship due funding requirement.

[richard III]

Well,,,,they just DID away with the 83 expat pilots left in SQ......nevertheless being Singaporean why don't you just apply to Tiger and Jestar and see after the interview? If you make it, the conditions will be better than in the US

[sport08]

richard III, I wanted to do that but was told to convert my FAA license first (at least for Jetstar Asia) before applying, and I can't do that since I'm still studying in the US and the SG citizenship dateline given is in a month with no option of extending.

[Flyboat North]

Interesting position you are in.

I would be thinking the US citizenship for most people has much more value than a Singaporean, largest wealthiest economy etc, significant engineering and aviation opportunities. Guess it depends where you want to live.

My instincts would be regarding passports - just do nothing, don't act, giving up US citizenship would be a big call. Pretty cheeky (IMHO) to be demanding to see proof of renouncing US citizenship - but they are a sovereign country and can ask for whatever really. I just smell a bluff.

But if it isn't a bluff and they take away your Sing passport, it isn't that hard to live and work in Sing if you have good quals.

Doste not sure you are correct , hardly an expert here but I am thinking that us Australians are pretty much the gold medalists in the immigration stakes.

For a country of 22 mill we allow around 250,000 immigrants per year , pro-rata is there anyone that beats that ? Of that total I think around 20,000 are for refugees - again on a pro-rata basis I would be thinking we get another gold there.

[N5748E]

When I was living in sg, they too demanded proof, just tell ICA that they don't give such documentation and the embassy wants you to contact them directly, that's what a consulate is for.

They normally can't be bothered, smallest dogs normally bark the loudest.

[Metro man]

A US passport is a considerable burden, you will have to file tax returns with the IRS and possibly pay tax for the rest of your life even if you leave permanently and never set foot in the USA again. A small but growing number of people are renouncing their citizenship every year, 1130 in the third quarter of this year, up from 254 in the same period last year. You will have difficulty opening a bank account with a US passport in most countries because of IRS reporting requirements, basically it's too much trouble for the banks so Americans are declined.

Also the US is $17 trillion in debt, increasing every minute, with no plan to deal with the problem. The party has to end some time and it's going to be a massive crash when it does.

IF you can get into a good airline in the US, conditions aren't what they used to be pension plans have been shred to pieces, pay and conditions have been cut. A jet first officer in Asia can take home more than a Captain in the US on the same aircraft.

In the US you will have a long ladder to climb with low pay and heavy competition at every stage. In Singapore IF you get lucky you can be in the right seat of an A320 at 200hrs and in the left at 3000hrs however there is little else available below that level.

Most of us have had to struggle a bit at some stage; first job, first twin, first turbine, first airline, first wide body or upgrade to Captain.

[sport08]

Do Jetstar, Tiger, or Silkair hire Junior FOs who have about 300-500 hours? Or do they only hire people with either close to zero hours as ab initio cadets, and those with the minimum hours for direct entry as FO? Even if I have an A320 or B737 type rating, I don't know how/where to get the 500 hours minimum required in type to qualify for direct FO unless I'm already flying for an airline (but every airline seems to have the same requirements). Additionally, I see salary data for Junior FOs, FOs, and Captains, but can only find applications for the last two and not for Junior FOs.

Metro man, do you know if the competition at each stage in Singapore is comparable to the US? I don't mind the struggle, just trying to figure out which country provides a higher probability of ultimately flying with an airline.

[N5748E]

$5680 sgd for JFO. Fixed salary minus sgd$1000 a month for CPF contribution. That's for a major LCC in singapore

[Geebz]

Metroman,

your statements are totally erroneous.

Pensions have been re-worked, not shredded. Even if I don't contribute 1 penny to my pension this year, my employer will be putting $40,000... in MY name. Something I will own even if the carrier files for Chapter 7 liquidation tomorrow. I also contribute an additional $11,000, PRE TAX, on top of that, which will also serve to lower my taxable income by that amount.

No FO in Asia gets the kind of compensation that a US Legacy airline captain makes. And, by contrast, my FO today told me his hours for the month. A quick calculation shows he is making more than me. He's still getting half the month off and is nearly 4,000 numbers JUNIOR to me. So even as a Narrowbody FO, you can still make a good living. It's not at all uncommon for me to fly with FOs who are way junior to me and who are maikng $4-5,000 more that month than I am. I don't like to fly all that much any more, they do. So they can far exceed basic Captain wages if they're willing to put in the work.

As far as taxes, it is what it is. Everyone pays taxes, save for certain countries in the Middle East and maybe a few others. Sure we spend way too much on wars but our military also does a lot of good, like peace keeping, diplomatic negotiations (only taken seriously because of our military might) and humanitarian aid, such as the Typhoon Hayian relief efforts going on right now. I am proud to pay my fair share of taxes in that regard.

When I worked in India, as an example, I paid far more taxes than I ever will in the US and with almost no tax deductions to lower my taxable income. Yet they as a society get almost nothing for it. The country leaves most of it's citizens to fend for themselves despite the high tax rate. It rarely, if ever, contributes to the global aid community, and puts off mass amounts of pollution from its un-regulated factories who dump untold amounts of chemicals into rivers and streams that flow into the world's oceans. Hence, there wasn't much to be satisfied about when it came to paying taxes.

IMO, you pay or you pay or you pay. In TX there is no state income tax but they get you in high electric bills and huge property tax rates. Whereas in California you pay (up to) 10% in state income tax far less in property tax and almost nothing in electric. In the US you get infrastructure for your taxes paid. What do you get in, say, India, as an example? Where the top tax rates are just as high. Most of our government institutions require some form of initial taxation to function, like the State Dept, Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, FDA, USDA, FAA, FBI, CIA, EA, FEMA, NTSB, DOE, DOT and, dare I say, IRS, NSA, DHS, TSA, and the DOD. And while every citizen seems to loath big government, and perhaps prefers to perpetuate broad-brushed sinister conspiracy theories as to how or why each institutions came to be, the fact of the matter remains that good government requires such infrastructure to be in place in order to work and function properly. So the taxes are what the taxes are. The society functions as it should because of the taxes paid. Sure Singapore pays less in income taxes but there are plenty of hidden taxes that the society must pay. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely HATE paying taxes and I am a firm believer in the flat tax system of say 9% coupled with much smaller government. But there are counter arguments to the claim that the US tax system is too burdensome. It is, to be sure, but we get some things for it.