My dream - advice please (collective thread)

[Europeancitizen]

Hi Europeancitizen,
Here's the thing. Can you afford to throw away €60K+ on your dream and living on €25K for a few years after the training? If you can, great. :)
If you cannot, then think long and hard about spending that kind of money.
I see you have a Class 2, make sure you can get a class 1 with no issues otherwise, there's no point in continuing.
The cheapest way is modular, the best way is to get onto a tagged scheme whereby an airline will pick you up after training - assuming no issues. BTW - you'll still pay for every thing, just a lot more outlay from you.
Just curious, what "perks" are there?

Thanks for your reply. I could afford them with efforts of course, but I have some savings and loads of hope and motivation.
Starting salaries are one my main concerns if I achieve entering an airline somehow after getting all the required licences. I have been told that companies such as EZY or RYR pay more than that, but not sure though. The thing is that probably being a freshly licensed pilot with no prior experience nor TR of any kind, sounds too optimistic to find a proper job in the medium term from today, and in a short time period after graduation?
With perks, I was thinking about a daily life that albeit its sacrifices, I find it challenging and amazing (travelling, big responsibility, continuous study to be updated, best views possible from an office, dream of my childhood, etc...)

[Europeancitizen]

35 too old? 🤣🤣
So a 28 year career is not enough?
Have you never heard the expression 'buy the dip' - when exactly do you think the best time to get into the industry is? Hint: it's not when they're hiring like crazy.

Hi rudestuff,
I don't think a 30ish year career is not enough. What I am refering to is if airlines prefer 20 yo fresh pilots or 30ish fresh pilots with more life experiencie, both in terms of maturity and professional experience although in a different field.
I don't know the phrase buy the dip I'm afraid. You mean now is a good moment?
Thanks

[Europeancitizen]

Any help would be much appreciated!!

[redsnail]

Hi Europeancitizen,
"loads of hope and motivation" many many many people have had that. Hope and motivation will not pay for a mortgage or help you save for retirement. It's great that you have it but you do need to be very realistic. Eg, I can hope that the weather will improve for the arrival but If I haven't planned for a diversion, then I am in a whole world of bother.
Buying the dip is a reference to buying shares on the stock market. You buy when there's a dip or downturn in the market and sell when it rises.
There is one well known low cost airline in Europe that flies B737s that has a reputation for not employing anyone over 40.

Fair enough re perks. Here's a recent flight. LOWI

[Europeancitizen]

[QUOTE=redsnail;11246518]Hi Europeancitizen,
"loads of hope and motivation" many many many people have had that. Hope and motivation will not pay for a mortgage or help you save for retirement. It's great that you have it but you do need to be very realistic. Eg, I can hope that the weather will improve for the arrival but If I haven't planned for a diversion, then I am in a whole world of bother.
Buying the dip is a reference to buying shares on the stock market. You buy when there's a dip or downturn in the market and sell when it rises.
There is one well known low cost airline in Europe that flies B737s that has a reputation for not employing anyone over 40.

Fair enough re perks. Here's a recent flight.

Great flight!!
Thanks redsnail, I agree with your views. I am 35 now, and expect to finish everything by 37 so hopefully age will not be a problem? Let's see how things recover in 2 years time. I want to try my best in achieving this, and if something goes wrong, I can always return to my current profession.

[byrondaf]

Hi rudestuff,
I don't think a 30ish year career is not enough. What I am refering to is if airlines prefer 20 yo fresh pilots or 30ish fresh pilots with more life experiencie, both in terms of maturity and professional experience although in a different field.
I don't know the phrase buy the dip I'm afraid. You mean now is a good moment?
Thanks

airlines couldn't care less of your age, I've seen plenty of "older" FO's join our airline. The captains you fly with will probably appreciate that you've got a bit of life experience and more to talk about than just going to Uni and starting at CAE/L3 etc.

As far as a good time to train, who knows. Plan for the worst and hope for the best and you'll have a back up if **** hits the fan again anytime soon.

[alvocaviat]

Hello everyone,

I know there are a lot of similar threads like these, but some advice would be very much appreciated.

So here's my situation:

Currently 24 years old
Just before I finished high school (i.e. age of 18 in Europe) I applied for a flight academy and passed all the selection tests. I could have started, but I did not. Why? They told me that during that time the industry was having a hard time and I would probably had to fly in Asia (Western countries were saturated with pilots). Furthermore I met a girl during my last year in high school and was afraid this would put a lot of pressure on our relationship. We're currently still together and got a very stable relationship.
Started a 5-year engineering study after high school and graduated a year ago.
I have been working in an engineering company for around a little less than a year. I'm making good money, but I feel this kind of job is not my passion and not something I want to do for the rest of my life. (I already felt that way during my studies to be honest, but continued because I did not know what to study else).
Therefore I'm considering again to go to a flight school in order to become a pilot in a 2-year track.


Could you guys please advise me on the next questions?

Family life is important to me and my girlfriend made it clear that she does not want to move with me to another country assuming I would be an airline pilot, which I totally respect. I live in The Netherlands. Is it possible that you fly for let's say Lufthansa, you are based in Frankfurt, but live in Amsterdam and you would commute between these two cities? Is this something that occures frequently in Europe?
Is there at this time a good chance I can start flying in a country in Europe (and commute between the Netherlands & this specific country)?
Flying rosters like 5 days flying & 3 days off is fine. Are there also rosters (at e.g. low fair airliners) in which you depart and come back home at the same day?
Would my engineering degree (civil, not in aerospace) help getting hired at an airline? Or do airliners only care about the amount of hours you have flown?


Being an airline pilot is still my dream job and during my studies & current career I felt I should be flying and persue my passion. Yet as you have probably mentioned my family has priority and I don't think I would be able to move to another country which is 10.000km away, leave everyone behind and see them like once every 3 months. So you can be very honest to me: is becoming an airline pilot something realistic considering I would be able to commute, yet not move to another country?

I have been breaking my head around this for quite a while and some advice of people in the aviation industry would helpful ;-).

Cheers
Hey dude,

Here to help, up to you ultimately. I can relate to your situation as I was in your predicament YEARS back.

Q1: If family life is important to you have a think about this, depending on the airline, you will be away for xmas on a trip, won't get a swap for your loved ones birthdays/funerals. will work weekends and public holidays BUT you'll have a lot of time off because of flight time limitations during the course of the year, have a bidding system in your airline for those special days. Pilots do commute throughout Europe generally with their own airline where you will jumpiest for free so that won't be an issue.

Q2: yes of course you will probably be based in Europe.

Q3: In Ryanair you return to your home base everyday, some airlines you could be on overnights for 5 days throughout Europe and back to your home base on day 5. I think the question you are asking though for your case is lets say you are living in Amsterdam but based in Dusseldorf, can you commute everyday back to Amsterdam, technically you could but you will be very very tired and flights get cancelled, bad weather etc..... so no not possible.

Q4: No Airlines don't care what you have but invest in getting a good CV and covering letter done.

Pilot life is not really suited to families unless you are super lucky and get a base close to your home, its a very selfish occupation. Aviation Induced Divorce (AID's) is a real thing and I have seen plenty of marriages destroyed because flying/money is more important than kids and wife. if you start in Ryanair you will be based in STN/DUB or literally anywhere on the continent so expect to commute from there, Transavia or KLM well you will get looked after. Money is terrible and conditions are awful in the low cost airlines so don't expect more than 20k a year in the fist year.

I did the training and got a job, I'm close to home have kids now and wife still puts up with me but it did put a big strain on our family life for first 4 years. want to move companies now so I know there'll be a tough road ahead but that's aviation dude its always changing. you can get real lucky or get seriously ****** over, hard one to call.

what I would do is go for a cadet gig that's not a low cost airline while still keeping your engineering gig. Low cost is awful and a terrible way to start your aviation career.

would I do it again?? so far yes but its **** at the moment things will come good again.

im not going to tell you what to do your a big boy. best of luck ;)

[flyingdoctor357]

Adding onto the pile of messages, apologies if some or all of my questions have been answered already…
From the UK, have a good engineering degree and because of covid went for my ‘backup’ career and have started medicine, with 4 years to go. I have my medical and have kept it up to date just in case.

I have since realised after numerous conversations that following one’s dream is far more important, so have decided funnelling my funds into becoming a pilot is a better decision for me - I recognise the huge numbers of downsides of professional flying but I think I am past saving at this point as I do understand anyone sane would probably finish up becoming a doctor yet still want to fly even with the risks/pay/conditions (that being said, Id argue the NHS isn’t doing much better of late with the exception of me having a 100% job guarantee if I pass my exams).

A few questions really:

1) Will there be a job to get if I graduate mid-late 2024 given the aftermath of covid and the impending recession? I get very different messages as to what the job market is doing and is going to do, so if I’m genuinely going to ruin my future training now and not getting a job at the end, I’ll become a doctor then fund pilot training in my 40s as a consultant (even though I’d rather get going now).
2) MPL or fATPL? I was looking at generation easyJet at CAE since they seem to be open, and I’ve heard despite the rocky start for those trained during covid they are now employed. If not that, is FTEJerez still the premier institution that it was when I looked at it around covid times?
3) Can someone explain to me what tagging is in ATPL programmes? Companies don’t seem to clarify what tagging entails and whether it’s provisional employment or just an interview. And are any airlines actually tagging pilots in the likes of FTE training programmes at the moment anyway or just hiring the backlog of type rated pilots from pre-covid?
4) if everything goes wrong and there is no job market, what is the cost of upkeep of an fATPL (or MPL) whilst waiting and applying for jobs? I assume knowledge checks and flying hours are required - but again I’m not entirely clear on how many, and what kind of money I will need to earn to stop the initial 100k going to waste and keep my licences intact before employment.

I hope that was all clear - I’m writing this in a short period of time in a break at the hospital!

Thanks in advance to whatever poor souls deal with the endless stream of wannabes like me.

[G SXTY]

flyingdoctor357

I qualified in 2007 so other people will have more recent experience of flight training, but I’ll try and answer your points.

(1) The million dollar question. Who knows? Without a doubt the industry got rid of too many jobs as a result of COVID, leaving airlines and airports short of staff for the rebuild. My employer is a glaring and shameful example of that. All things being equal, there will be a need for some recruitment to replace pilots who’ve been made redundant or left the industry altogether. In the UK, BA, Virgin & Jet2 have all recently advertised pilot vacancies, which is a positive sign. However . . . All things being equal . . .

Russia turning the gas taps off is contributing massively to inflation and the cost of living crisis, not just in the UK but across Europe, and there is little chance of the situation improving anytime soon. There’s a good chance it will provoke a recession, and if that happens don’t expect much expansion / recruitment for the foreseeable.

If you’re impatient to start training (and we’ve all been there) then slow but steady would be my advice.


(2) fATPL, definitely. I assume you know that a MPL course ties you to a specific airline and type of aircraft? If that airline has second thoughts and stops recruiting, they can and will drop you and your course mates in a heartbeat. And it has happened. Your training school might then – without a hint of embarrassment - offer you the ‘opportunity’ to convert onto an fATPL course and pay for it all over again . . .

And if you go fATPL, don’t fall for the marketing hype and be aware you don’t have to go integrated to get into an airline. Modular gives you the same licence for less cash and – crucially in the current climate – allows you to train part time or slow down the pace of training to suit the job market. (See point 1 above). I cannot overemphasise the importance of qualifying when airlines are actually recruiting.


(3) I’m not familiar with the term, but assume it means some sort of link-up with the school and a possible job offer when you qualify. If so it could mean anything from a guaranteed job offer (very unlikely) to your CV landing on a smaller pile and giving you a better chance of an interview. Schools like to big-up their relationships with airlines, for obvious reasons, but in terms of the big picture, if airlines are recruiting there will be jobs out there, if they’re not then you’ll struggle to find work whatever the school’s marketing people tell you.


(4) An often overlooked point . . . The instrument rating must be renewed every year, and as well as the cost of the test, if you’re not flying regularly then expect to budget for some refresher training first to get you back up to speed. IR skills are very perishable, particularly with low hours / experience. As I said it’s a while since I trained, but back then the ball park was to work on £1000 p/a to keep the IR current. On top of that, airlines value currency / recency, especially for low hours pilots. My first employer wanted 50hrs flying experience in the last year, and Virgin’s recent advert wanted 200hrs flying hours in the last year as well as a type rating (not that I’ve checked). ;) That’s a reflection of the job market and shows they can afford to be picky.

If you’re paying to keep an IR current and only flying 10-20 hours per year, you will be at a significant disadvantage compared to someone with a newly issued licence. (See point 2 above).

Thanks in advance to whatever poor souls deal with the endless stream of wannabes like me.

Not a problem – we were all wannabes once! :ok:

[EmbraerAhoy]

Hello everyone!

This year, I'm finally going to take the big step and start my journey to achieve my dream of becoming a commercial pilot.
I've taken every precaution that I could have to mitigate the financial risks: I've just completed a degree in business law as an emergency backup option and have managed to build a secure career at the job that I started at the start of my degree. I've chosen a reputable ATO that's not far from where I live and can keep my job part time during my integrated ATPL.

I feel like with that I've built a solid base to start flight training, and now that I'm getting closer to my start date I'd like to ask for any tips that you would have liked to have given to yourself before you started your training, that you didn't know at that point. I just want to prepare myself as much as I possibly can before I get stuck in.
(I'm asking for anything you can think of, like for instance any small, helpful things about general life as a student pilot, learning the theory, the actual flying, maybe even things that made the transitioning to IFR easier for you)

I'd be really grateful for any input, thanks!

[redsnail]

Have you done a Class 1 medical? No point in starting all of this without getting that out of the way. If you don't want to go to the expense of the medical, find the EASA Med requirements and have a chat to your doctor and optician.
Best thing to do? Plan your time wisely and allow some "down time/relaxation". Flash cards are very useful for recalling lots of useless data. Believe me, most of the ATPL theory is useless data you'll never use. There are electronic ones around (eg Quizlet) but you are better off building your own sets as it will reinforce learning.

[EmbraerAhoy]

Thanks for that, making my own flashcards/summaries made my life a lot easier at uni too.
And yes, I passed my Class 1 last week. Wouldn't even have thought of starting without one and my ATO requires one before I even start training with them, which is a big green flag in my opinion.

[RichardH]

Hi EmbraerAhoy

I ​​​​ concur with redsnail's post.

​​​​​​You might be underestimating the amount of work on integrated course particularly during the ATPL theory phase. As redsnail stated mostly useless but it's a lot of volume in a short period of time & successful students (first time passes with good %) are the ones 110% committed to this with no distractions or emotional baggage holding them back. Though it would be good to continue to work part-time I am not sure you will be able to SUCCESSFULLY do both, as it's full-time day classes with most students doing several hours extra homework. You might find yourself getting (justifiably) annoyed with the standard of the exams but you need to treat it as an entrance exam to becoming a pilot, as said before most of which you'll never use/see again.

As a former ATPL theory instructor I found the biggest hurdle for most UK students was basic maths. I strongly advise you to spend your time getting used to transposing formula eg. distance/speed/time, interpolating graphs & tables of data, basic mental arithmetic (in 2020 EASA introduced mental dead reckoning into the general navigation syllabus). Also some knowledge of physics gas laws would be useful. GCSE/secondary school level should be good enough, you don't need differential calculus! Years ago ATOs often used the first week to revise all this material but no doubt due to cost sadly no longer.

Best of luck.

[rudestuff]

Mitigated the financial risk... by going integrated 🤣🤣

[Aviator172s]

Mitigated the financial risk... by going integrated 🤣🤣

Do airlines care about integrated vs modular way?
I guess they care more about overall marks and 1st attempt success?

[Christianb]

Hi, I have 18 years and I want to be an airline pilot but I have some doubts....
First of all I'm from Italy, near Turin, and I don't know how the school is determinant to find an occupation in an airline after the study, I heard that there is a school in Jerez where is more easy to get a job for example.
Also I don't know how is the routine in this job in EU, in the short and in the long haul, and if is really hard in term of social life.
I am still not sure if this will be my future also because I don't know if I really like aviation at the point of flying everyday, I read some pilots who said to try to fly a little plane in a school and see if I enjoy it or not, what do you think?
Thank you.

[richpea]

I read some pilots who said to try to fly a little plane in a school and see if I enjoy it or not, what do you think?
Thank you.

For sure do this before you commit massive amounts of your (or your family's) money to trying to launch an aviation career. What's the point if you don't even know that you enjoy sitting in the front of the plane being responsible for your own life! *^^* My personal advice since you're very young would be to do a PPL first and figure out if you want to keep going after that.

[rudestuff]

I want to be an airline pilot but I have some doubts....and if is really hard in term of social life....I am still not sure if this will be my future also because I don't know if I really like aviation at the point of flying everyday...
You either want to be a pilot or you don't. Just give up mate.

[Contact Approach]

Mitigated the financial risk... by going integrated 🤣🤣

Pass me the popcorn when you’re done! 😂

[flyingflamingo]

Greetings everyone!

Just a brief background about me, I am a 22M Indian, with a Bachelors degree in hand, I have always wanted to become an airline pilot and had intended to join a cadet pilot program as well, I have cleared all required ground theory papers, medicals etc. in India, But due Covid the Cadet pilot programs have been discontinued and does not look like they will resume anytime soon, due to this I am considering going abroad, probably Canada or the US for my flight training, But as I dig deeper, since obviously it is a huge investment, what are your takes on the job environment lets say in the next 2 years in both the canadian aviation market as well as Indian Aviation? Should I work for now and wait for the cadet pilot program to restart? If I do go conventional and train in Canada, theres a possibility for being a CFI over there and gaining hours as well as some money, woudl that open up the US market as well for me after say 1500 hours? whats the safest way to go about it?

[mystify2431]

Hello everyone. I'm 35 years young and am considering a career change. I'm in quite a fortunate position where I have enough savings and can finally pursue the dream of being a pilot.

It seems like every view suggests going the modular route and given I could carry on working while pursuing that it seems like a no-brainer. So I plan to do a trial PPL lesson and get a Class 1 medical booked in in the next few months and see how it goes from there.

I live in London, and would prefer to stay in the area both during the training period and ideally during a potential pilot career although I appreciate that being picky about jobs is probably not a liberty I'll have.

This brings me to my first question, related to Brexit, and how it is impacting opportunities for UK pilots. Jobs seem to be competitive enough at is, and I have read a few articles suggesting it had made it more challenging for UK pilots by essentially limiting them to UK aircraft based in the UK. Is this still an ongoing issue? It seems like it would be a huge challenge to get employed compared to being able to choose across an entire continent and it is something I am concerned about.

Regarding the medical, my main concern (at least that I'm aware of) is my eyesight is quite poor (I'm around a -7 in both eyes) and it looks like the requirements are for a maximum of -6 for short-sightedness although if I'm reading it correctly it seems that it could be passable if referred for further assessment. Does anyone have any experience of this or if this is a total non-starter then it would be good to know!

I'd also like to get a better idea of starting pilot salaries. I'm happy to take a paycut from what I currently earn but it would be good to know what sort of figures to expect so I can adjust my lifestyle accordingly. I do have a mortgage so there is a limit to have far I can go. I've seen everything from 30k to 75k suggested online for a fresh pilot.

Any advice on the above would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance!

[Alexjvb123]

Hi, I’m 15,16 this year and I am doing my GCSEs. I am going to be doing maths physics and chemistry at a level and am currently getting my microlight pilots license. I am wondering on the best option to become a commercial pilot as I love flying. I would like to get a uni degree in something physics based. I am also in the air cadets. I am looking for advice on the routes to go down and which one would be best for me. Thank you.

[rudestuff]

Work hard, get a job and keep flying. In fact get 2 jobs, or 3 if you can fit them in. Live at home with your parents, don't smoke or drink and definitely don't get anyone pregnant, and you'll be a commercial pilot by 21. That's literally all you have to do: You need 200 hours - it takes a long as it takes but do the necessary courses on the way and once you hit 200 you'll have a fATPL. Unfortunately microlights don't count, but have a look at getting your PPL on a TMG, they're cheap and your can convert to SEP easily, plus you can count 30 hours towards your 200.

[Hien Ngo]

Hi everyone, I'm from Vietnam and I'm graduating in this year and I'm looking for options to become a pilot. Should I join flight school all by myself and work my way to the airlines or pre-signing a contract with an airline first and join its training program? What are the benefits and drawbacks of both? I really need your opinion on this. Thank you in advance.

[Aleks93]

Hello!
You have several options:
Modular - better value for money, as you can pay for training with your own schedule and take it bit by bit.
Integrated - will require full financing, but will get you there faster. Some flight schools offer scholarships
MPL - straight away contract with airline, safest option, but need to check which airlines offer that.

Hope this helps.

[Aleks93]

Hey!

Pilot training and job requires a lot of dedication. If you have doubts before starting, you should think more. It is very intense training and afterwards job might require sacrificing some social life.

[J2wannabe]

Edited

[RichardH]

Hi J2wannabe

There are lots of commercial pilots out there with little or no school qualifications so I shouldn't worry too much, that said you are unlikely to be accepted on to an airline 'sponsored' or integrated flight course as you stand. Nobody gives a jot about GCSEs results once you are over 21 & holding what really matters - a frozen ATPL.

I shouldn't waste your time going back to school but just get on with the flying via the Modular route (Class 1 Medical first then PPL, ATPLs, hour building etc. etc.), with your job you should have some flexibility to earn & learn at the same time. Do not underestimate the work required for the ATPLs. Most are not technically difficult but it's the volume of mostly useless rubbish in time available that is the killer. You need to be 110% focused & committed preferably with no baggage & are prepared to put your social life on hold for the duration, so it's short term pain for long term gain - attitude is everything.

I was an ATPL theory instructor (TKI) for over 20 years and without a doubt UK students biggest weakness is their standard of maths. One school I instructed at one time actually did a week of maths & physics prior to starting the ATPLs, so get yourself back into maths as you need to be able to manipulate basic formula, interpolate data tables, read graphs & do simple gross error calculations in your head.

Feel free to PM if you wish.

RichardH.

[J2wannabe]

Hi J2wannabe

There are lots of commercial pilots out there with little or no school qualifications so I shouldn't worry too much, that said you are unlikely to be accepted on to an airline 'sponsored' or integrated flight course as you stand. Nobody gives a jot about GCSEs results once you are over 21 & holding what really matters - a frozen ATPL.

I shouldn't waste your time going back to school but just get on with the flying via the Modular route (Class 1 Medical first then PPL, ATPLs, hour building etc. etc.), with your job you should have some flexibility to earn & learn at the same time. Do not underestimate the work required for the ATPLs. Most are not technically difficult but it's the volume of mostly useless rubbish in time available that is the killer. You need to be 110% focused & committed preferably with no baggage & are prepared to put your social life on hold for the duration, so it's short term pain for long term gain - attitude is everything.

I was an ATPL theory instructor (TKI) for over 20 years and without a doubt UK students biggest weakness is their standard of maths. One school I instructed at one time actually did a week of maths & physics prior to starting the ATPLs, so get yourself back into maths as you need to be able to manipulate basic formula, interpolate data tables, read graphs & do simple gross error calculations in your head.

Feel free to PM if you wish.

RichardH.

hi mate thanks for your response and taking the time, yeah my thoughts where the airlines don’t require any formal grades aside from strong ATPL results.

However the only thing putting me back is I may not even make it past the CV stage. I’ve heard some outfits receiving over 7000 applicants. I feel it’ll put me out of the running at the first hurdle.

Modular has been done before and it can be done again

[rleungz]

Hi all,

I'm now in a position at the grand old age of 33 years old to fund my pilot training. I was so naïve back when I joined PPRUNE at 16 years olds - didn't realise the salary you need to fund such a dream.

I'm planning to start my PPL and obtain my class 1 medical. Being an professional pilot is a 2 - 5 year plan due to money, availability and family commitments.

However, would a PPL be a suitable test to establish if I am capable of getting through to fATPL and becoming a professional pilot? My maths/science isn't a subject I was strong at, but willing to work to refresh and train up the brain for this stuff.

Thanks,
R

[rudestuff]

None of it is particularly hard, it just takes perseverance. GCSE level maths. If you can drive a car then you can fly a plane. 2-5 years? If you've been saving until age 33, money isn't a problem so training should only take you a year give or take. As always, trial lesson aside, always get your class one medical before you start flying.

[redsnail]

Hello everyone. I'm 35 years young and am considering a career change. I'm in quite a fortunate position where I have enough savings and can finally pursue the dream of being a pilot.

It seems like every view suggests going the modular route and given I could carry on working while pursuing that it seems like a no-brainer. So I plan to do a trial PPL lesson and get a Class 1 medical booked in in the next few months and see how it goes from there.

I live in London, and would prefer to stay in the area both during the training period and ideally during a potential pilot career although I appreciate that being picky about jobs is probably not a liberty I'll have.

This brings me to my first question, related to Brexit, and how it is impacting opportunities for UK pilots. Jobs seem to be competitive enough at is, and I have read a few articles suggesting it had made it more challenging for UK pilots by essentially limiting them to UK aircraft based in the UK. Is this still an ongoing issue? It seems like it would be a huge challenge to get employed compared to being able to choose across an entire continent and it is something I am concerned about.

Regarding the medical, my main concern (at least that I'm aware of) is my eyesight is quite poor (I'm around a -7 in both eyes) and it looks like the requirements are for a maximum of -6 for short-sightedness although if I'm reading it correctly it seems that it could be passable if referred for further assessment. Does anyone have any experience of this or if this is a total non-starter then it would be good to know!

I'd also like to get a better idea of starting pilot salaries. I'm happy to take a paycut from what I currently earn but it would be good to know what sort of figures to expect so I can adjust my lifestyle accordingly. I do have a mortgage so there is a limit to have far I can go. I've seen everything from 30k to 75k suggested online for a fresh pilot.

Any advice on the above would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance!

Ok. No one appears to have answered your questions or offered their thoughts.
Your eyesight may present an issue. Your Class 1 medical will let you know soon enough.

If you only get a UK CPL/ATPL you'll be restricted to only flying G-reg aircraft. Unless the UK rejoins EASA, that will remain the case. If you want both licences, then you'll have to do all the exams effectively twice. Yes, it's nuts... Of course, when you have experience, you can apply to the Gulf states and they'll take care of the licence validation.

You've answered your own question about staying in London. You could be lucky, but I would bet on moving away from London for a good few years. I moved 10,000km.

New CPL salaries? As ever, it depends on what/how/where. Personally, I'd budget a salary from £25K upwards. If you start instructing, half that. Yes, it's that bad. This of course, assumes you get a job after you finish your training. If you don't, you'll have to budget to keep your Instrument rating and medical current. The IR skills deteriorate pretty quickly.

[ElegantArmor]

Considering US flight schools, but currently based in Scottsdale, AZ. I have a pair of degrees, no debt, and willing to take on my first loan to make this happen.
What are considered maybe the top 3 schools for quality of training and/or hiring potential & airline partner programs?
ATP and Aeroguard have come up often, both happen to be in AZ--do they make the cut? Skyborne in FL seemed tempting because of the Delta pipeline, but I'm slightly plartial to United or Alaska for personal reasons, but that doesn't matter if there's a clear choice for highest percent of working graduates.
Thank you!

[rudestuff]

In the US it really doesn't matter where you train. You can't go from flight school to an airline anyway. Your only choice is to become a Flight Instructor and get a job teaching for a year or two.

[CaptSackJarrow]

Considering US flight schools, but currently based in Scottsdale, AZ. I have a pair of degrees, no debt, and willing to take on my first loan to make this happen.
What are considered maybe the top 3 schools for quality of training and/or hiring potential & airline partner programs?
ATP and Aeroguard have come up often, both happen to be in AZ--do they make the cut? Skyborne in FL seemed tempting because of the Delta pipeline, but I'm slightly plartial to United or Alaska for personal reasons, but that doesn't matter if there's a clear choice for highest percent of working graduates.
Thank you!

Ask this in r/Flying (reddit) for a better response, but from what I know. US is PPL -> CPL MEP etc -> FI instruct for 1500hrs to get your ATPL. Where you train etc doesn't hold much to any value, after all you've just spend the past 2-3 years breaking your back instructing in a 172! Go to the cheapest and count yourself lucky that your country gets aviation. Good luck

[Unhinged_pilot]

In the US it really doesn't matter where you train. You can't go from flight school to an airline anyway. Your only choice is to become a Flight Instructor and get a job teaching for a year or two.

This doesn't seem to be such a hurdle in Europe, where we see people come out of an integrated ATPL(A) program and get FO seats with the airlines.
Why is that hour building such a crucial step in the US?

[rudestuff]

This doesn't seem to be such a hurdle in Europe, where we see people come out of an integrated ATPL(A) program and get FO seats with the airlines.
Why is that hour building such a crucial step in the US?
Because in the US you need an ATP to fly for an airline, in Europe you can be hired with a CPL.

[Unhinged_pilot]

Because in the US you need an ATP to fly for an airline, in Europe you can be hired with a CPL.

Doesn't an ATPL(A) in Europe include the CPL part as well?
Most integrated training programs I've seen for ATPL(A) include a CPL with flight hours.

[thegoosefeet]

I'm pretty sure it does

[rudestuff]

Doesn't an ATPL(A) in Europe include the CPL part as well?Correct. An ATPL includes CPL and PPL privileges. But you can't get an ATPL straight out of flight school (unless you spend £1M+ renting a multi crew aircraft for 500 hours, which isn't really an option for most people!). When you graduate flight school you have a CPL. Then you get an FO job. Then you get 1500 hours. Then you get an ATPL.
So I'm sorry but you've never seen an ATPL integrated course - because they don't exist.

[Pilot30]

Hi everyone,

So, I want to become a pilot and work for the airlines. I do have the means of funding through a mixture of parents and then financing the rest. I am looking at integrated vs modular and even the generation EasyJet programme (I know it’s not very popular on here but I am still considering it as an option due to the conditional employment)

However my wider issue- I am a law graduate and have a training contract secured at a big London firm (so that will be one year of law school (funded) followed by 2 years of training on a nice salary which would help me save up more of my own money). Now while I worked hard for this I don’t want to fall into the sunk cost fallacy.

I am wondering what others would do because I have always wanted to become an airline pilot which also offers a better work life balance than presumably 60hr weeks in London. But I’m also aware that this opportunity in London is a very good one and gives the fall back option. But I will be commiting myself to 3 years for something I don’t really want to do long term. In addition the SQE is also going to be quite intense study so to know I’m doing that for the sake of 2 years is a factor especially when the atpls are also very intense.

Would it be worth being patient? (I am also in the process of applying for Irish citizenship so In 2 years I will have the right to live and work in the EU)

[VariablePitchP]

Hi everyone,

So, I want to become a pilot and work for the airlines. I do have the means of funding through a mixture of parents and then financing the rest. I am looking at integrated vs modular and even the generation EasyJet programme (I know it’s not very popular on here but I am still considering it as an option due to the conditional employment)

However my wider issue- I am a law graduate and have a training contract secured at a big London firm (so that will be one year of law school (funded) followed by 2 years of training on a nice salary which would help me save up more of my own money). Now while I worked hard for this I don’t want to fall into the sunk cost fallacy.

I am wondering what others would do because I have always wanted to become an airline pilot which also offers a better work life balance than presumably 60hr weeks in London. But I’m also aware that this opportunity in London is a very good one and gives the fall back option. But I will be commiting myself to 3 years for something I don’t really want to do long term. In addition the SQE is also going to be quite intense study so to know I’m doing that for the sake of 2 years is a factor especially when the atpls are also very intense.

Would it be worth being patient? (I am also in the process of applying for Irish citizenship so In 2 years I will have the right to live and work in the EU)

Become a pilot. Law looks horrific in the city - 60 hour weeks? Try 80. And how many people actually get to sit there on £150K for very little work by 30 for a company that won’t work them outside their contact when practicing law?..

You’ll kick yourself forever if you don’t. Backup? Pfft, if you need a backup job because you can’t land one flying then that’s the time to get one. It’s unlikely you’ll need one. Spend three years doing law but get a flying job straight away and you’ve simply wasted three years staring at a computer screen researching articles that you care very little about. That’s three years not on the top payscale as a training captain.

[parkfell]

Hi everyone,
So, I want to become a pilot and work for the airlines……EU)

To all aspiring junior birdmen…….before you post here with your life history etc, obtain a CLASS ONE MEDICAL, then seek the advice.

8% of males will fail due to a colour deficiency.
Best to find out without undue delay, then think about plan B for those unfortunate individuals.

[PolomDrastiz]

Become a pilot. Law looks horrific in the city - 60 hour weeks? Try 80. And how many people actually get to sit there on £150K for very little work by 30 for a company that won’t work them outside their contact when practicing law?..

You’ll kick yourself forever if you don’t. Backup? Pfft, if you need a backup job because you can’t land one flying then that’s the time to get one. It’s unlikely you’ll need one. Spend three years doing law but get a flying job straight away and you’ve simply wasted three years staring at a computer screen researching articles that you care very little about. That’s three years not on the top payscale as a training captain.

Yeah...lots of insane advice on this sub, really hope you don't make such a bold decision consulting internet strangers who could be anybody with intentions you don't know. Go talk to real people for advice.

An internet forum can cloud your decision since you risk overvaluing internet opinions, not wise when a training contract at a London law firm is at stake. Lots of older folks here, or people who've never worked in high skilled roles, that are out of touch. Nobody here will be accountable for your decisions. It's your parents money, they will be in this risk with you and nobody here will.

[Specaircrew]

If you want to be a pilot and get trained without paying for it then join whichever air force your nationality allows you to! I too was a 15 year old wanabee pilot once. At 18 I joined the RAF, flew single seat supersonic aircraft when I was 20, was a 4 jet captain at 23, and have just completed my 50th year in military aviation(only in the sim these days though)! Of course if you want to just fly airliners from A to B then you'll need fork out a large sum of money unless you can get on an airline sponsored training program. Trust me, air to air combat or low level bombing is much more fun.

[VariablePitchP]

If you want to be a pilot and get trained without paying for it then join whichever air force your nationality allows you to! I too was a 15 year old wanabee pilot once. At 18 I joined the RAF, flew single seat supersonic aircraft when I was 20, was a 4 jet captain at 23, and have just completed my 50th year in military aviation(only in the sim these days though)! Of course if you want to just fly airliners from A to B then you'll need fork out a large sum of money unless you can get on an airline sponsored training program. Trust me, air to air combat or low level bombing is much more fun.

If you want to be a military pilot then do the above.

Sadly the above is as relevant as a BOAC 707 captain from Hamble extolling their cadet path. It’s really cool what you were able to do, but good luck being front line before 30 in today’s RAF… Get 1500 hours before 35 and you’re doing well. Again, if you want to be a military pilot that’s still fab. But the whole join the military then crossover thing to save some training cost just doesn’t hold water any more.

[cadmium101]

One thing you should figure out is if your potential law job will adjust for inflation or not, or if you are competent enough to put your savings into a reasonable investment that protects you against this. You don't want to end up wasting many years saving only to realize that training cost has increased by 50-100%.

[ShrannyToon]

Hi everyone,

So, I want to become a pilot and work for the airlines. I do have the means of funding through a mixture of parents and then financing the rest. I am looking at integrated vs modular and even the generation EasyJet programme (I know it’s not very popular on here but I am still considering it as an option due to the conditional employment)

However my wider issue- I am a law graduate and have a training contract secured at a big London firm (so that will be one year of law school (funded) followed by 2 years of training on a nice salary which would help me save up more of my own money). Now while I worked hard for this I don’t want to fall into the sunk cost fallacy.

I am wondering what others would do because I have always wanted to become an airline pilot which also offers a better work life balance than presumably 60hr weeks in London. But I’m also aware that this opportunity in London is a very good one and gives the fall back option. But I will be commiting myself to 3 years for something I don’t really want to do long term. In addition the SQE is also going to be quite intense study so to know I’m doing that for the sake of 2 years is a factor especially when the atpls are also very intense.

Would it be worth being patient? (I am also in the process of applying for Irish citizenship so In 2 years I will have the right to live and work in the EU)

Hi Pilot30
Well done on securing the law job first of all.
I'm on a similar track as to what you describe - but about 2 years ahead (I have 2 years of work experience done out of 3 year training contract). I work in finance (insurance/risk management). So far I've really enjoyed it - most importantly I've made friends for life (I am going to one of their weddings' next year!), I'm studying towards a professional qualification, and am getting lots of experience in an extremely challenging role.

Graduate roles like this in finance/law teach you a lot of things which fresh-faced cadets leaving secondary school and going to a flight school won't have or experience. Learning how to work in a team, work under stressful conditions, deal with commercial pressures and how to stand up for yourself are all extremely desirable characteristics for a pilot in today's CRM-focused world.

If you couldn't tell already - my view is that it would not be a waste for you to do the training contract and save money. I'm going modular and about halfway through my PPL, timing finishing my PPL with my professional exams so that I can hour build and take a loan out to accelerate the CPL/ME/IR/APS-MCC portion all in one go.
Whilst people (rightly) say you will miss out on 2/3 years of "training captain salary" - you will have enough years under your belt of flying by the time you retire, even if you are in your late 20s by the time you're in the flight deck.

Nowadays people our age want instant gratification etc. - I've satisfied my "craving" and FOMO by doing my PPL on the side every other weekend... It's very doable.
I don't think you'd regret doing your training contract - you might regret rushing into aviation so soon though. If you know you're going to get into it eventually, doing something else for a while will only make you a more attractive candidate (IMO).
My only piece of advice is to appreciate how difficult it can be to actually save money working in an expensive city like London/Dublin when you're young and enjoying yourself. But it sounds like all in all you've given the journey a good bit of thought.
Hope this helps a little :)

[PolomDrastiz]

Hi Pilot30
Well done on securing the law job first of all.
I'm on a similar track as to what you describe - but about 2 years ahead (I have 2 years of work experience done out of 3 year training contract). I work in finance (insurance/risk management). So far I've really enjoyed it - most importantly I've made friends for life (I am going to one of their weddings' next year!), I'm studying towards a professional qualification, and am getting lots of experience in an extremely challenging role.

Graduate roles like this in finance/law teach you a lot of things which fresh-faced cadets leaving secondary school and going to a flight school won't have or experience. Learning how to work in a team, work under stressful conditions, deal with commercial pressures and how to stand up for yourself are all extremely desirable characteristics for a pilot in today's CRM-focused world.

If you couldn't tell already - my view is that it would not be a waste for you to do the training contract and save money. I'm going modular and about halfway through my PPL, timing finishing my PPL with my professional exams so that I can hour build and take a loan out to accelerate the CPL/ME/IR/APS-MCC portion all in one go.
Whilst people (rightly) say you will miss out on 2/3 years of "training captain salary" - you will have enough years under your belt of flying by the time you retire, even if you are in your late 20s by the time you're in the flight deck.

Nowadays people our age want instant gratification etc. - I've satisfied my "craving" and FOMO by doing my PPL on the side every other weekend... It's very doable.
I don't think you'd regret doing your training contract - you might regret rushing into aviation so soon though. If you know you're going to get into it eventually, doing something else for a while will only make you a more attractive candidate (IMO).
My only piece of advice is to appreciate how difficult it can be to actually save money working in an expensive city like London/Dublin when you're young and enjoying yourself. But it sounds like all in all you've given the journey a good bit of thought.
Hope this helps a little :)

Impressive, the people I know who've secured training contracts are cut from a different cloth. To do that on top of flight training sounds incredibly tough.

I don't think it's bad having a few years experience in a high skilled role either.

How many pilots actually end up as training captains commanding salaries of £200k+ in reality though? Trying to jump ship quickly as possible to maximise career earnings when it's so far into the future that other things could bring to a stop is another thing to consider. You're not guaranteed anything.

[VariablePitchP]

Impressive, the people I know who've secured training contracts are cut from a different cloth. To do that on top of flight training sounds incredibly tough.

I don't think it's bad having a few years experience in a high skilled role either.

How many pilots actually end up as training captains commanding salaries of £200k+ in reality though? Trying to jump ship quickly as possible to maximise career earnings when it's so far into the future that other things could bring to a stop is another thing to consider. You're not guaranteed anything.

But if the end goal, which is the important bit, is to be a pilot. Why bother?

Why not spend 20 years becoming a qualified surgeon. Why not 35 years, then get a licence and first flying job at 58?

Once you establish that what you genuinely want to do is fly aircraft for a living, I just don’t see why you would want to throw away years getting a bit of paper to put up in the hallway, which is likely all it’ll ever be used for.

As to your question about cash, training captains at most carriers will get close to that, it’s a well paid profession. Get that position at a BA/Virgin and you’ll be well North of £200K. Unless you spent 15 years building up a knowledge of litigating planning permission infractions, then you won’t have the time to get there.

[ShrannyToon]

But if the end goal, which is the important bit, is to be a pilot. Why bother?

Why not spend 20 years becoming a qualified surgeon. Why not 35 years, then get a licence and first flying job at 58?

Once you establish that what you genuinely want to do is fly aircraft for a living, I just don’t see why you would want to throw away years getting a bit of paper to put up in the hallway, which is likely all it’ll ever be used for.

As to your question about cash, training captains at most carriers will get close to that, it’s a well paid profession. Get that position at a BA/Virgin and you’ll be well North of £200K. Unless you spent 15 years building up a knowledge of litigating planning permission infractions, then you won’t have the time to get there.

I understand your view - but the "why bother" part for me isn't an option. I need a high-paying job to accelerate my earnings. If I could work in Tesco or work in a large insurance company in a corporate setting, I wouldn't ask why bother but instead, why not. My post centered around those for whom financing (loans, equity release etc.) aren't an option - ie. if you need to save yourself, you might as well make it a useful experience for you.

[Alanga1991]

Hi everyone,

So, I want to become a pilot and work for the airlines. I do have the means of funding through a mixture of parents and then financing the rest. I am looking at integrated vs modular and even the generation EasyJet programme (I know it’s not very popular on here but I am still considering it as an option due to the conditional employment)

However my wider issue- I am a law graduate and have a training contract secured at a big London firm (so that will be one year of law school (funded) followed by 2 years of training on a nice salary which would help me save up more of my own money). Now while I worked hard for this I don’t want to fall into the sunk cost fallacy.

I am wondering what others would do because I have always wanted to become an airline pilot which also offers a better work life balance than presumably 60hr weeks in London. But I’m also aware that this opportunity in London is a very good one and gives the fall back option. But I will be commiting myself to 3 years for something I don’t really want to do long term. In addition the SQE is also going to be quite intense study so to know I’m doing that for the sake of 2 years is a factor especially when the atpls are also very intense.

Would it be worth being patient? (I am also in the process of applying for Irish citizenship so In 2 years I will have the right to live and work in the EU)

Easy answer. Take the training contract. Those are HARD to come by so well done. Complete your training via the modular route while training. Time modular training with training contract and only quit your high paying law job when you secure your first job. Yes it’s your dream to fly but also don’t be stupid. No guarantee on how long it’ll take you to find a job after training. As someone who’s missus just completed their training context, do the smart thing. Also aviation is very cyclical. You may get made redundant at some point. You have the backup profession to do contract work until you get another flying job. Take the training contract

[Careerchanger3]

I am considering a career change from my current profession working at a bank. Due to the cost of the training we were told about at school, becoming a pilot was never an option. I am 30 now, and have sufficient cash to pay for modular training. It seems it will be max £70k, but there could be a number of ways to save if careful.

How much risk is there involved for a career changer in terms of not being able to get a job at the end of the training (up to 24 months after starting)?

I have a degree from a top uni, have had decent reviews all the way through my career, so no competency or personality issues that could prevent me getting a job. How difficult is it out there to land your first role?

I would always be able to get a contract role, but could look very stupid if i have spent all the money and time retraining and there being no jobs. This is the only thing holding me back currently.

[VariablePitchP]

I am considering a career change from my current profession working at a bank. Due to the cost of the training we were told about at school, becoming a pilot was never an option. I am 30 now, and have sufficient cash to pay for modular training. It seems it will be max £70k, but there could be a number of ways to save if careful.

How much risk is there involved for a career changer in terms of not being able to get a job at the end of the training (up to 24 months after starting)?

I have a degree from a top uni, have had decent reviews all the way through my career, so no competency or personality issues that could prevent me getting a job. How difficult is it out there to land your first role?

I would always be able to get a contract role, but could look very stupid if i have spent all the money and time retraining and there being no jobs. This is the only thing holding me back currently.

There is always a risk, ultimately. But looking at your background it’s lower.

Genuine life experience, presumable a pretty solid work ethic to have done at least relatively well in banking, good academic foundations etc. You’re not just another 18 year old that daddy has sent through a pilot factory.

If you had a licence today you’d be able to join one of quite a few airlines. You’d have Jet2, Ryanair, Wizz, BA, Loganair all open to you. If nothing cataclysmic changes in the world within the next two years it looks like the picture will only get better. But there is a non-zero chance of something cataclysmic happening. But even those who graduated in April 2020 are more or less all employed now.

The real risk to me would be not doing it. Could you get through the next 30 years starting at P/L spreadsheets in an office without trying the flying gig, and still be truly happy. Or will you get to 55, the point at which it does become too late, and be furious with yourself for not following the path?

[PPRuNeUser0203]

If you had a licence today you’d be able to join one of quite a few airlines. You’d have Jet2, Ryanair, Wizz, BA, Loganair all open to you.



I thought Jet2 and Loganair wanted some commercial experience and won’t just hire someone with ME-IR-CPL-UPRT-APS-MCC (at least officially)?

[VariablePitchP]

I thought Jet2 and Loganair wanted some commercial experience and won’t just hire someone with ME-IR-CPL-UPRT-APS-MCC (at least officially)?

J2 pilot apprenticeship. Loganair seems to be as and when but definitely a first airline job for a good number of people.

[4lek5]

Hello,
I am almost 18 and i am set on becoming a pilot. I have spoken to many people and i have been told to take so many different routes its overwhelming.
Right now i need to decide whether i should go for my RPL because i have heard that you cant get a Cadetship if you have previous flying training. I am looking at applying for the REX and Qantas cadetships mid next year. (Virgin and Jetstar are not offering at the moment)
These are the pathways im looking at:

get a cadetship
if i don't get a cadetship get my CPL and then get a job in Alice springs or darwin doing charter OR become a flight instructor and get the hours up until i can apply for a commercial aviation job.
if i don't get a cadetship apply for an apprenticeship in aircraft maintenance and while i am doing the apprenticeship get my CPL and once i finish then get a job flying

Also i spoke to someone who recommended the Bush Pilot pathway then once you hit 1500 hours apply for the cargo airlines in the U.S. Wondering if this is a good route?
Also is the Griffith Uni aviation degree worth it? Does it help me get a job?
I am really stuck deciding and i with option 3 i dont really want to spend 2 years doing a diploma, spending $50k in training then spend another 2 years on the apprenticeship then on top of that its another $130k for my CPL. I definitely want a backup in case the industry falls like it did in COVID
Also my long term goal is to do long haul flights for an overseas airline such as emirates
any advice is appreciated and thanks

[P40Warhawk]

Hello,
I am almost 18 and i am set on becoming a pilot. I have spoken to many people and i have been told to take so many different routes its overwhelming.
Right now i need to decide whether i should go for my RPL because i have heard that you cant get a Cadetship if you have previous flying training. I am looking at applying for the REX and Qantas cadetships mid next year. (Virgin and Jetstar are not offering at the moment)
These are the pathways im looking at:

get a cadetship
if i don't get a cadetship get my CPL and then get a job in Alice springs or darwin doing charter OR become a flight instructor and get the hours up until i can apply for a commercial aviation job.
if i don't get a cadetship apply for an apprenticeship in aircraft maintenance and while i am doing the apprenticeship get my CPL and once i finish then get a job flying

Also i spoke to someone who recommended the Bush Pilot pathway then once you hit 1500 hours apply for the cargo airlines in the U.S. Wondering if this is a good route?
Also is the Griffith Uni aviation degree worth it? Does it help me get a job?
I am really stuck deciding and i with option 3 i dont really want to spend 2 years doing a diploma, spending $50k in training then spend another 2 years on the apprenticeship then on top of that its another $130k for my CPL. I definitely want a backup in case the industry falls like it did in COVID
Also my long term goal is to do long haul flights for an overseas airline such as emirates
any advice is appreciated and thanks

Hi there,

You answered a few questions yourself already.

Go for a Professional Diploma and or a USEFUL degree.
Many of us who did not have a proper pre education ended up doing unskilled labour during Covid as a Pilots License is not recognized as a Skilled worker diploma.

If you wanna work in the US, you need a Permit to live and work in the US, but Aussies such as yourself have a kind of way to get the E3 Visa relatively easy as there is a certain agreement about that between Australia and the US.

Once again, have a backup plan. That doesnt need to be Uni, but can be professional bachalor as well.

I dont know if in Australia there is a scene of Glider Flying. That could be a great option to do in the meanwhile 😄.

Good look and Happy New Year 😄✈️

[sow.amadou2003]

Hey , this is my first time posting here and have a question
i wanted to be a pilot my whole life and i live in italy .
I can apply for EU citizenship in 5years and right now i only have EU permanent residence ( unlimited residence right ) and i was wondering if can work for let's say Ryanair wizz air or any regional airline without citizenship when i graduate flight school.
I would love to know before i embark on this aviation journey or go to university instead.
Thanks for reading :)

[rudestuff]

You're in an enviable position. As an Australian you can do all your training in the US and in 2 years be flying a Jet. The cheapest and controversial option is don't bother with CASA training - get an F1 visa and get all your FAA certificates, work in the US as an flight instructor then stay on an E3.

[AD27]

Hello everybody!

I'm 28 and from Hungary. I'm currently doing my PPL with around 30-ish hours, and have been working inside and close to the aviation industry for a long time now.
I would like to finish my PPL and after that my dream is to be flying biz jets (Or the Ryanair/Wizzair route is fine by me as well). I will soon have around 30.000 EUR of funds availabel for me.
I wish to ask for your advice on my next steps.

I have an option to take an integrated post-gradual school with Govermental funds (interest free) which can be started to be paid back when I'm working.
It costs around 63.000 EUR and the funds can be payed fully with this governmental fund.
The School is Airwin Budapest, which is close to where I live now. It provides 239 flight hours with AUPRT+APS MCC. Of course no type rating.
The second option is of course the modular route for which I will have around 30.000 EUR. I have read it is not enough for the whole PPL to cockpit route

My questions are following:
Is it possible to land a job in the EU for a biz jet with around 240 Hours fresh out of integrated school?
If not, how much money would I need to have for a 737 type rating, or is it possible to bond with RYR another airline in the EU?
I know it's not this thread but if you wish you can share your 2 cents, if you think it's possible for a PPL to cockpit route modula from 30.000 EUR.

Thank you in advance,
Adam

[redsnail]

Is it possible to land a job in the EU for a biz jet with around 240 Hours fresh out of integrated school?
Unless you either know someone, namely the person who owns the jet, or you can bring something else to the table, it is practically impossible for a low houred pilot to get a job on a bizjet. Usual numbers are a min of 1500 hours, 500 multipilot, ATPL and in many cases, experience on type or similar operations.

Looking around Europe at the moment, most jobs involve A320 series of aircraft. Boeing's having a bit of a time at the moment. Buying a rating does come with it's own pitfalls. They are very expensive to keep current...

[AD27]

Looking around Europe at the moment, most jobs involve A320 series of aircraft. Boeing's having a bit of a time at the moment. Buying a rating does come with it's own pitfalls. They are very expensive to keep current...

Thanks for your answer! Do you think a lot of companies offer bonded or financed type ratings?

[320_]

Hi guys,

I’m 17 years old, I’m from Poland and I’ve been really doing research about flight schools, ways of becoming a pilot etc. I’m planning on going the ATPL integrated in an airline academy program (I’ve got some choices) once I graduate high school but my question is, because I don’t want to do anything else in life and never wanted should I go to university/college? I mean I guess you don’t need a degree to be a commercial pilot and it sure does provide some stability and a plan B but im technically guaranteed a job.

[redsnail]

AD27 It depends on what you're bringing to the table. If you have extensive relevant experience etc, you might get bonded. It does depend on the company. If you're a freshly minted CPL, then there's a good chance you'll have to finance the rating either up front or with a reduced salary for a while. Companies that historically have a higher turnover of staff tend to expect you to finance the rating.

@320
Will the university or college degree saddle you with debt? If so, don't bother. A degree with no experience is pretty useless after a couple of years. Being able to drive a forklift or a semi trailer is probably more useful than a degree as a back up plan.

[rudestuff]

Hi guys,

I’m 17 years old, I’m from Poland and I’ve been really doing research about flight schools, ways of becoming a pilot etc. I’m planning on going the ATPL integrated in an airline academy program (I’ve got some choices) once I graduate high school but my question is, because I don’t want to do anything else in life and never wanted should I go to university/college? I mean I guess you don’t need a degree to be a commercial pilot and it sure does provide some stability and a plan B but im technically guaranteed a job.
You're lucky. You have rich parents. Get the degree as well.

[African_TrouserSnake]

Unless you either know someone, namely the person who owns the jet, or you can bring something else to the table, it is practically impossible for a low houred pilot to get a job on a bizjet. Usual numbers are a min of 1500 hours, 500 multipilot, ATPL and in many cases, experience on type or similar operations.

Looking around Europe at the moment, most jobs involve A320 series of aircraft. Boeing's having a bit of a time at the moment. Buying a rating does come with it's own pitfalls. They are very expensive to keep current...

Hey matey, just weigh the risks of each option and do as you please. There are a lot of factors to take into account though.

What I can say is that many people your age are unsure about their career paths; it's part of growing up. Dreaming of being a pilot might seem like a way to avoid choosing between unexciting career options, but most of us have probably faced the same dilemma.

Unfortunately, only a fortunate few land a job shortly after completing flight school. For the others it can become a real challenge and take a while. Some even end up completely outside of aviation. In between, it can be a long, tough grind, both mentally and financially, especially if you wind up in a low-skilled job.

Remember, there are no guarantees in aviation. I've seen it firsthand. People get turned down during initial training, type rating, OCC, LIFUS, you name it, for various reasons—poor performance, airlines shutting down, or industry shifts. Just imagine being told, "Sorry, your OCC is canceled; we don't need flight crew right now." (I've seen it!) And that example is a few years ahead, while you're just starting out.

We all tend to believe that those things won't happen to us, and perhaps they won't happen to you. But it's definitely something worth considering.

So, here's my advice (aside from finances): take some time to mature, think about what interests you beyond aviation, and consider pursuing a degree in that area. At 17, even if you only earn a Bachelor's degree, you'll still be just 20. That's quite young to start flight training.

[African_TrouserSnake]

@320
Will the university or college degree saddle you with debt? If so, don't bother. A degree with no experience is pretty useless after a couple of years. Being able to drive a forklift or a semi trailer is probably more useful than a degree as a back up plan.

I agree that the depth is something to consider. However, in Northern Europe, having a degree, even without experience, can pay off. Many entry-level white-collar jobs require candidates to have a bachelor's degree, so not having one could put you at the bottom of the pile. It could be especially beneficial if you live in a country that has a considerably bigger pay gap between white-collar and blue-collar jobs. I don't know if that holds true for Poland though.

Looking ahead, I see having a Plan B as a long term, and not just a short-term solution. If you never land that flying job, working as a forklift driver might not offer much in terms of career advancement or mental stimulation, unless, of course, driving a forklift is your true aspiration..

Personally, I'm biased for getting a degree. I did it myself before starting flight training and it worked out great. It gave me a nice paycheck, valuable experience, a strong CV, and the peace of mind that if I lost my job in the deck tomorrow, I'd be back in an office next week.

[320_]

You're lucky. You have rich parents. Get the degree as well.
I'm not "My parents gave me 61k for flight training" rich (or at least not the full price). I was thinking about financing the integrated training with a loan or for example a another route, going to the Wizzair academy program or something simmilar if even exists which takes away from your paycheck to fund it, as far as I've read.

No degree and with a loan, that already sounds pretty bad.

[redsnail]

Hi African_TrouserSnake My caveat with the degree is the "no experience" bit. Sounds like you got a job relevant to the degree. Great. That's ideal especially if you can pay off the student loan (if you needed one). I got both my degrees while working ;) I haven't missed student life as I worked at a university for 8 years paying for my flight training. Fun times indeed.

[+TSRA]

Personally, I'm biased for getting a degree. I did it myself before starting flight training and it worked out great. It gave me a nice paycheck, valuable experience, a strong CV, and the peace of mind that if I lost my job in the deck tomorrow, I'd be back in an office next week.

I tend to agree. More education is never a bad thing, and you never know where you can put your degree skills to use in aviation. Many pilots end up in the office at some point in their career, where suddenly those stats and creative and technical writing courses begin to make more sense. For some, like me, education becomes a hobby in its own right, so having a degree or two is nothing more than the end result of that hobby. I'd argue that in many ways it's a pretty cheap hobby compared to others, but I digress.

Not all degrees are created equal if you are looking to simply pad your resume. Just because you have a degree in a field does not mean you can immediately return to that field should you find yourself an out-of-work pilot, which is what most suggest is the reason for getting the degree. Many degrees are useless after only a few years if you don't continue to study or work in the related field. Therefore, my typical suggestion is to get a generalized degree that you could build upon in the future, but not so specific that you may as well not hold that degree later five or ten years later. Alternatively, you could mix your passions. We have two pilots at my airline who hold doctorates and who split their time 50/50 between flying and research, and many more who have built a business around their education or who continue to study so they can use their degree later on.

[African_TrouserSnake]

Not all degrees are created equal if you are looking to simply pad your resume. Just because you have a degree in a field does not mean you can immediately return to that field should you find yourself an out-of-work pilot, which is what most suggest is the reason for getting the degree. Many degrees are useless after only a few years if you don't continue to study or work in the related field.

Yeah, I partially agree. In fields like STEM, having recent or enough past experience matters. But it's not as black-and-white as some make it out to be. Having a degree doesn't just become useless after a few years.

You've likely come across vacancies that read requirements like: "Bachelor’s/Master's degree or equivalent practical experience," without specifying the area of study.
Institutions awarding BSc or MSc degrees stick to established procedures and undergo audits to ensure their programs meet certain standards, both nationally and internationally. As a result this allows employers to get an insight of your abilities, whether the company is from Norway or China.

Unfortunately, being a pilot doesn't usually count as equivalent experience. Many pilots w/o a degree have voiced complaints about this on LinkedIn following the pandemic, being limited by such requirements, despite being fully capable of performing the work. Though anecdotal, it might be worth considering in your evaluation.

[Bebir]

Hello guys i have been looking at schools from all the world but its a bit hard to choose.Thats why i made this threat i really need help or someone just giving me advice where and what school is the best and fast to take your INTEGRATED ATPL.I have no experience in aviation but i really wanna become a pilot and learn everything.My budget is around 80.000€ or a bit more country doesnt matter i just have a quality school with good flying hours and hoping to finish it in 2 years or 2 and half.Thank you guys in Advance

[Htm_737]

Hi guys, what do you think of training in Poland ? Do you recommand ?

[fulltrottel]

go for it! To my mind with the salaries you will eventually end up getting the risk in your situation is fairly low. Otherwise you might regret not having tried it before it´s too late.

All aircraft manufacturer predict massive pilot shortages for the upcoming decades. Someone has to fly all the aircraft that are being ordered. Additionally the baby boomer are retiring. All good arguments you will get a job one day.

[Alex.Marius]

Hello, short question- This is the only thing that it keeps me on hold.
After I finish fATPL with 200 hours and I will not have the money for type rating, I have any chances to get an airline jobs with a paid type rating and a bonded period to airline company( in Europe)? Also, a FI in Europe ehat salary have?

[Karim.29]

Everyone on Reddit told me to come here so here I am. I have just finished my gcses and I have a 2-3 month holiday now and I want to get some flight lessons and experience in. I first looked at biggin hill flight lessons but they are extremely overpriced, 5 hours being around £2250. After looking and researching a bit more I have arrived to the conclusion that redhill offers a decent price. It’s also near me, it’s around 220 for 60 mins on a two seater. As I want to get some hours in and the fact that I have no prior experience and I want to know more about piloting is this a good way to go about it? Fortunately for me money isn’t really a big issue, I would just like to know what I can do this summer to get as much flight experience that will benefit me in the future and ofc have some fun. But are there better alternatives? Btw I am planning to go sixth form and flight academy after. I’ve got many questions about this as well but since it’s quite early I don’t think excessive research on this is necessary right now. I suppose I am going to be 17 soon in a bout 4 months, is it time for me to look at flight schools?

[paco]

It's a good opportunity to see if you and flying like each other (and the school - try others as well) , but before you do any serious training get a Class 1 medial. Be wary of doing integrated training (you mentioned flight academy) - DO NOT pay the fees up front. Treat it like any business decision, use due diligence, the way you will have to when flying anyway.

[RichardH]

Karim.29 Go and do a trial lesson at your potential flight school (these hours count) & see how you get on with school/club, your instructor & aircraft. Assuming you are happy then CONSISTENCY is key you need to be booking ideally 2 lessons per week as several will end up being cancelled due weather etc. Choosing a relatively local airfield is a good idea as you know the area, less tired travelling, weather likely to be similar to home.
You will need a Class 2 medical before you go solo but as paco says get a Class 1 if you are thinking of going commercial eventually.

In theory with 2 to 3 months available you could be well on course to your PPL by September if you booked a lesson everyday or even two. When I started 50 years ago I took 2 weeks holiday from work & flew twice a day (subject weather) to get consistency during the circuit phase. However you seem to be saying you just want to try it and get a few hours in? but then might stop? If this is the case other than a trial lesson or two you would be wasting your money as you will almost be back at square one with a significant break. So either fully commit or don't do it until you are certain.