Looking for ATSA job

[-Me-]

Hi there,

I have just finished ADI,got ICAO level 5,looking for an ATSA job, does anyone knows if any airport is looking for an ATSA?
Info would be appreciated :ok:

Thank you!

[Andy Mayes]

First off, congratulations on passing your course. Did you do the course at Cwmbran?

Secondly, why not set your sights for an ATCO position?

Thirdly, usually the college get the nod on positions vacant, sometimes even before the unit managers know, did the college not know of any vacancies or offer you some suggestions!?

[-Me-]

Hi Andy,

yes,in Cwmbran.
Some people from the college try to help me,but it's not easy at the moment,since the market is very quiet.
I did send some applications (like 40 :8) but all the replies I've got was negative,whenever there is a position pops up,they are obviously looking for experienced ATCO...
And I'm visiting airports too..as much as I can...
This is the reason why I would rather start from the very bottom,I'm willing to take even part time position,rather than wait months for an ATCO position..so if you know anything :ok:

Have a nice day!!!

[chevvron]

Have you applied to NATS? Do you have a CAA licence? I heard (how true it is I don't know) that Cwmbran don't give you a licence which the CAA recognise.

[Andy Mayes]

Do you have a CAA licence? I heard (how true it is I don't know) that Cwmbran don't give you a licence which the CAA recognise.

I don't normally use such abbreviations but "WTF"?!

As someone who has CAA licences having trained there (and under it's previous names) I can categorically say, Cwmbran, or more appropriately, Resource Training Group Ltd, conducts training approved to European Union Commission Regulation (EU) 805/2011.

The three training establishments in the UK approved by the CAA to conduct ATC training can be found here: ATC Training Providers | Air Traffic Services | Operations and Safety (http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?catid=2004&pagetype=90&pageid=11299)

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Andy.. No need to get excited. I think Chevvron was suggesting that after a course at one of those places you don't come away with a UK ticket. When I came away from IAL many years ago I had an ICAO "ATC Certificate" which was accepted where I was working (abroad) but not in the UK, although the training course was approved and I subsequently sat the UK exams for my UK licence..

I accept that the courses are approved by CAA but don't you need an MER now before actually getting the licence?

[chevvron]

I fully accept that Cwmbran is approved to train for ATCO Licence exams, but what do you get at the end of the course that you can show to a potential employer? Is it a CAA recognised Licence or an ICAO recognised Certificate like HD was given by IAL?
I know of someone who passed the course at Cwmbran, then went to an airfield which was A/G, and the CAA wouldn't allow them to do A/G until they passed the AGCS exam and obtained the ROCC. I was the examiner, that's how I know! (Very pleasant and attractive Spanish lady she was too!)

[-Me-]

chevvron: It is a CAA approved license,we even had a training manager visitor from CAA during our training.
With the certificate we've got we can apply straight away for a Student ATCO license.
And yes,Resource Training Group is one of the best Colleges in the UK,I was 100% satisfied at the end.
Now I just need to get a job :cool:

[Andy Mayes]

I fully accept that Cwmbran is approved to train for ATCO Licence exams, but what do you get at the end of the course that you can show to a potential employer?

I think Chevvron was suggesting that after a course at one of those places you don't come away with a UK ticket.


Things have obviously changed quite a bit since chevvers and HD went through.

To clarify both chevvron's and HD's mis-understandings, these days trainees get given their "yellow peril" as issued by ATSSD on successfully completing their Basic and then their Rating Course (whether that be ADI/ADV/APP/APS), they also get a lovely photograph taken having it presented to them by Alan Moss*.:}

And for those who are suggesting the original poster applies to NATS. This is much easier said (or typed) than done. NATS only very very rarely recruit "experienced controllers". By experienced controllers I mean those whom already hold an ATCO licence (whether it include a ULE or not) and do not require ab-inito training. Apart from the Spanish division of NATS, I think the last time they recruited licensed ATCOs from the outside of their organisation was for the London LARS set-up (prerequisite for this was APS). That said, obviously I am not aware of all intricate recruitment that may or may not take place without any public adverts being placed in the press however, they do not accept unsolicited CVs!:rolleyes:

*Replace Alan Moss for the name of the person who does such presentations at the other respective colleges because I'm quite certain he doesn't tour the country just presenting licences!

[Andy Mayes]

I know of someone who passed the course at Cwmbran, then went to an airfield which was A/G, and the CAA wouldn't allow them to do A/G until they passed the AGCS exam and obtained the ROCC. I was the examiner, that's how I know! (Very pleasant and attractive Spanish lady she was too!)

Did she hold an ATCO Licence and did it contain a current ULE?

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<NATS only very very rarely recruit "experienced controllers">>

I know one that they did - me in 1971!

[Eric T Cartman]

<<NATS only very very rarely recruit "experienced controllers">>
Might be true as of today, but they've had 7 from Prestwick alone in the last 10 years, all ADC/APR rated with current ULE's .............

[On the beach]

I managed to sneak in under their radar too as an "experienced" controller with "God forbid" an Australian licence. :E

OTB

[reportyourlevel]

Interesting discussion and it might all come down to exactly what you study and maybe a little semantics.

Colleagues of mine have completed their basic and ADI/ADV courses at Cwmbran and received a CAA issued UK Student ATCO licence with the appropriate ratings and a yellow book, just as I did when I completed my ADI/ADV at NATS' college. On successful completion of the UTP you are awarded a "full" ATCO licence with appropriate ratings, endorsements and ULE.

I took my APP and APS courses at Cwmbran and upon completion of these I was awarded a BAE Systems (as it was then) certificate which the CAA confirmed was satisfactory to commence unit training. Upon completion of the UTP and satisfactory examination I was given a new page for my licence to add APP and APS to my existing ratings.

[slowclimber]

NATS only very very rarely recruit "experienced controllers".

You would think that the largest ANSP in the country would consider employing qualified and experienced ATCOs, but that would obviously be too logical. NATS' policy is not to recruit experienced controllers - if in doubt, make contact and see what happens. You either get a borderline rude brush-off, or no reply at all. Those few who manage to sneak in clearly know someone in the right position...

[Yahoo!®]

Even if their doubt as to other at training centres output had foundation, why would they discount one if their graduate ab initios from their own recruitment? Say for instance they needed area students. Back in the day, area students would already have done the aerodrome course and had made good inroads learning RT, met and other cross discipline skills and knowledge. This doesn't happen now and I don't know what effect that is having on the output from the college from the fast track courses they do now. But my point is nats would be fools not to recruit someone from one of the other centres as a lot of ground work would already be done.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<Those few who manage to sneak in clearly know someone in the right position...>>

Most definitely not in my case. I did three abroad with IAL, during which time I sat my UK ATC Licence exams and Aerodrome and Approach Ratings. On return to the UK I worked at a small non-State airport. I had my interview for the "Ministry" and was told that I would have to have a medical. I told them that I had only recently had my annual medical and they told me I had passed! They then said I would be joining an adult entry course. I told them that I had a UK Licence which was validated in both ADC and APC. I then had a phone call asking if I would likie to go to Heathrow, which I did, so they sent me on a six week Approach Radar Course. That course was at the same time as the Adult Entry Course and I met the people on it. At least two had UK Licences but had never queried what they had been told.

When I was at Heathrow a number of non-State ATCOs came straight in. If NATS are now turning away such people then that it new policy.

[Andy Mayes]

Most definitely not in my case.

When I was at Heathrow a number of non-State ATCOs came straight in. If NATS are now turning away such people then that it new policy.

HD, with the greatest respect, things have changed in HR considerably during the last 30+ years and whilst NATS recruited ATCOs from the outside back then, it is rare for them to do so now. Simiarly 30+ years ago it was possible to "have a go" at controlling and "doing the RT" before doing any formal exams to "see if one liked it", I even "had a go" in the jump seat of a Dan Air 1-11 on the way back from some bucket and spade holiday as an 8 year old, but it has all changed now.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

OK Andy. Things have changed, but then presumably changed back again. I was the first ATCO to enter the "Ministry" who had not undertaken the standard Primary Course. This didn't go down too well at Heathrow - some people were mightily upset and I had to work hard to prove that I was up to scratch. Oh yes, I only have two O levels and I got in purely on my past ATC experience which was in a foreign country. I don't follow why HR currently will not recruit similarly qualified ATCOs?

[Andy Mayes]

OK Andy. Things have changed, but then presumably changed back again. I was the first ATCO to enter the "Ministry" who had not undertaken the standard Primary Course. This didn't go down too well at Heathrow - some people were mightily upset and I had to work hard to prove that I was up to scratch. Oh yes, I only have two O levels and I got in purely on my past ATC experience which was in a foreign country. I don't follow why HR currently will not recruit similarly qualified ATCOs?

In my relatively short career in ATC training, I have found that the majority of trainees who progress through the college training and the UTP without problems back at their unit at a fast pace, are the ones who have a real strong interest and love of aviation but with only a minimal education behind them but with enough common sense and determination to do well.

Those who seem to have have fallen into ATC because of their excellent degree results after many years studying some unrelated subject at university do not always do so well. That said, this is not always the case and I work with one ATCO who has a fairly good degree result and some ATCOs who do not even possess one single GCSE/GCE or O Level!

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

That's how things have always been, Andy. When I left school at 17 I was a lowly CA in the Civil Service - by chance I was sent to MoA Tels HQ which also housed ATC and Ops people. The requirement for ATCA in those days was 5 O levels. I subsequently passed an exam to be a higher grade clerk and applied to ATC for an ATCA post based on the fact that the educational requirements for my new job and those for ATCA were the same. I visited the ATC people and they told me there was nothing they could do - it had to be 5 O levels. My love of aviation, ATC Cadet, etc, etc., had no effect.

So far as I recall, entry to the ATCO grade was 5 O levels and 2 A levels OR recent experience as aircrew or ATCO and that's how I eventually got in. I guess it's different now.

I trained a good many people during my 31 years in "The Ministry" and I agree 100% with your first para above.

[chevvron]

I often found those with degrees were far more difficult to train than those with just O and A levels. As Andy says, they didn't have the underlying keenness and interest as an enthusiast.
I knew a FISO who was 'ace' with about 6 in the circuit and others leaving and joining, but he only had 2 O levels, so couldn't even apply to become an assistant in NATS. I suppose the RAF would have took him, but service life doesn't suit everybody.