Private airspace

[flylowtoo]

Hi,Im new here, what hight do land owners own above their property?
Can I fly unlicensed, unregistered aircraft above private land.

[mad_jock]

You will have to make sure you say which bit of the world you are in.

I presume your american.

In the UK the land owner has no rights at all about the air above there land.

I am 99% certain america is the same.

The licensing and what your allowed to do is sitpulated by your national aviation authority in your case FAA.

And the aircraft and the pilot both need to have some sort of license/cert to be able to fly. There are regs which allow you to fly tethered up to a certain height with some forms of heavier than air devices and also lighter than air with out licensing but I don't have a clue what those regs are.

[MrAverage]

He's in Western Australia...

[mad_jock]

Be better to go down to the Australian forum then.

[Halfbaked_Boy]

mad_jock, that's not strictly correct.

Ever noticed how utility lines never pass over a house? To do so would require an easement which requires the owner's permission. This applies to anything intended to be built or carried over the owner's land, that could reasonably cause obstruction/harm/cause an eyesore, etc.

So whilst the owner does not technically 'own' the airspace above their homes, they do have certain rights to it.

[fujii]

Owners don't own any airspace. Go to casa.gov.au and look up CAR157.
Halfbaked, not so. The owner has the land but the utility has the right to access the easement which the owner can't refuse. In fact if the owner wishes to build over the easement, he/she requires the utility's permission.

[mad_jock]

If the installation is on your land you get rent money from it.

If the wires just hang over your land you get nothing for it. Ask any farmer.

The cables over the top of your house is more planning restriction and also issues with cable breaks.

You basically have no rights but if someone then affects you life by using that airspace you have remit to go to the courts to prevent them using it.

There must be thousands of court cases per year about tree overhangs and the like and it doesn't always go in the favour of the land owner.

[Halfbaked_Boy]

As you can see, I'm no lawyer! But this is from experience (fair enough, of a singular case) where local contractors hung a cable that, when translated vertically to ground level, encroached over our land. I approached the contractor directly (the boss hasn't overseen this specific piece of work) and he saw enough possible red tape to get his guys to shift it about five metres away, citing the reasons I quoted above.

So perhaps 'twas in fact a misunderstanding on both our parts that led to the result I wanted?! But he looked totally uncertain when I could see him initially considering refusing my request.

[mad_jock]

If you had even started donw the path of complaining they would have had to start the ball rolling with safety assesments and then the job would have been delayed, cost alot more etc etc.

Can we move it 5 meters and the person stops moaning an there isn't any change to costing or time scale? yes

Move it 5 meters.

If they need to get it across they will do and if you try and remove it you will be done for criminal damage. The old telephone cables used to create a load of problems when they started rolling them out but its not common now as most new builds you buy with the cable either under ground or the cable is deployed before you own it. If anyone kicks up a stick it usually means they have to bury the cable these days. Which is proberly why your bloke was more than happy to move it 5 meters.

There was a case a few years ago where a high voltage line was put in quite near housing and an enterprising local stuck a huge inductor in his roof and powered some heating off it. Went to court and he claimed it was his air in his roof and around his property and he could use any magnetic fields that were imposed on him against his will. He got done.

[John R81]

I think Half-baked boy is right. I have a farm with electricity wires crossing one part, but no pylon on my land. I am pestered by firms offering to act for me in seeking compensation. I dislike the "ambulance chasing" culture and it would be hypocritical for me to seek compensation for something that was there when I bought the farm.

See here Can I get compensation for the adverse effect of electricity power lines (http://www.propertycompensation.com/compensation.htm)

Compensation could be available without a pylon on your land, it seems

[Pull what]

In the UK the land owner has no rights at all about the air above there land.


I think the MOD & the British Nuclear Industry would probably disagree with that statement.

[mad_jock]

You can get compensation for it but you can't actually stop them putting them over your land.

We maybe getting into differences between Scottish and English law mind you.

[Pilotage]

If you own land, almost anywhere in the world, you own it from the centre of the earth to the edge of the universe.

However, there are also, almost anywhere in the world, laws that permit other people to fly aeroplanes and spaceships in your airspace, without paying rent or asking permission. It doesn't stop that space being yours, but it's pointless ownership except that you can build into it.

Under your land, you can mine it. That is easier to enforce. Anybody who wants to mine under your land, needs your permission, and you can charge for that.

Reference.

P

[mad_jock]

I couldn't remember the term used but found it now.

Its an implied Easement which basically means any utility or goverment body or public service can impinge on your property and have a right of access. And they have it until you object to it and get a court order to prevent them.

Its been years since I had any dealings with this but a job I was doing was some fittings for a pumphouse and they need to get in 3 phase and data connection. Three landowners in my opinion got well humped with the power cable and fibre line going in. Absolutely nothing they could do to stop it. They got 100 quid a year per pole on thier ground and 500 quid each for disruption. And if at any point the power cable goes wrong the whole lot will get dug up again.

[md 600 driver]

on my paddock we have a pylon and wires on it we get paid for the pylon from the utility and also there is a additional cable running over the top of the pylons we get paid for that too

steve

[fujii]

Mad jock, both the original poster and I are in Australia and you're not. There's no compensation involved. The question was about aircraft, not power lines.

[mad_jock]

I know I did say I realised we wern't talking about the UK in the orginal question.

But i suspect the CASA will have even more regulations than the UK when it comes to things getting airborne.

[Legalapproach]

The 1978 case of Bernstein -v- Skyviews established that in the UK a landowner does not have unlimited rights over the airspace above his property. The interest is only sufficient for the ordinary use and enjoyment of the land. The case involved a property owner trying to sue an aerial photography company for trespass. The landowner lost.

The original question asks whether you can fly unlicensed and unregistered over private property. The answer is not legally. The relevant legislation will regulate aviation within the airspace of country concerned and will be applicable to all airspace (unlike road traffic law that relates to the use of vehicles on public roads).

Can I murder or rape someone on my own property or take illegal drugs? Err No.

[fujii]

No, CASA and regulation in general is fairly free here if you know what you are doing. Last weekend I flew from just north of Melbourne to Evans Head. About 600 miles. Didn't need a plan. Through RAAF airspace. One controlled airport enroute. No restrictions at all. On the ultralight side, they are governed by their own federation with very little CASA involvement. As are gliders, skydivers, sports aircraft and hang gliders. It's a very big, uncrowded sky here.

[taxistaxing]

Interesting question. From a quick trawl of wikipedia (I promise I don't do all my legal research on there :} )

Air rights - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_rights)

Originally you did have rights over everything above and below your property, but this has been watered down (since the advent of the aircraft) to only that airspace which you can reasonably make use of. Therefore if I fly an aircraft at 10,000 feet above your property, you would have no ability to stop me from doing so and I wouldn't be 'trespassing' in the ordinary meaning of the word.

I imagine the position is similar in the UK and other common law jurisdictions.

Interesting point made in the article that the 500 feet rule (the US version looks very similar to the UK version) appears to trump 'air rights', by allowing you to fly as low as you wish, so long as you don't fly within 500 feet of any person or structure, unless you are taking off or landing.


Ever noticed how utility lines never pass over a house? To do so would require an easement which requires the owner's permission. This applies to anything intended to be built or carried over the owner's land, that could reasonably cause obstruction/harm/cause an eyesore, etc.



Yes but this is getting into the territory of planning permission, covenants, easements etc. i.e. rights and restrictions over the land rather than airspace. It's unlikely that utility wires would be high enough off the ground to be outside the airspace you could reasonably make use of.

[mad_jock]

For the most part its the same in the UK Fujii.

And long may it continue.

[mostlytossas]

I'm not joining the bush Lawyer debate on who owns what above an owners property but in Australia you cannot fly an unregistered aircraft or fly unlicenced over private land. Ultralights have simular rules I believe.

[mad_jock]

I am pretty certain you can fly tethered without a license or the thing licensed in the UK. The nutters that do home built helicopters do that and also some balloons.

But as Fujii says big big country and as long as nobody see's you.

But I add the next clip as a point of warning.

Microlight trike Crash!!! - YouTube

[Pull what]

Pilotage



However, there are also, almost anywhere in the world, laws that permit other
people to fly aeroplanes and spaceships in your airspace, without paying rent or
asking permission


Not quite correct(ask Korean Air!)

Chicago Convention Article 6: (Scheduled air services) No scheduled international air service may be operated over or into the territory of a contracting State, except with the special permission or other authorization of that State.

[cockney steve]

But as Fujii says big big country and as long as nobody see's you.
That there's the Gotcha !
Some years back, I read an article in an Aviation Mag. concerning an Aussie pilot, out in the Bush, transiting a remote property. Looking down, he saw an odd-looking light aircraft flying low and somewhat erratically. "high-flyer " noted it had a Registration and copied it...... the upshot was, the aircraft had been written-off and sold as scrap. Mr Outback bought it and grafted in a Rover 3.5 Litre V-8 car -engine, cooling -system and ancilliaries.....nail a prop on it Cobber, and she's good to go ;)......Except "high-flyer " saw and reported his unexpected encounter and poor old Mr. Outback was "done" for it.....some would say he was saved from himself, but the Wrights got away with it, and look where that's led us!

[horizon flyer]

In England since the battle of hastings in 1066, when William 1st stole the country from the people, only one person owns all the land, the Crown. All anyone owns is the freehold of the land surface, which means the minerals and air are ownered by the goverment. So if the goverment says you can fly through it you can.

[FlyingKiwi_73]

I think you chaps have missed the point here: OP said "Can I fly unlicensed, unregistered aircraft above private land. " The answer is NO and NO not legally (even test flights need a permit) Even if your Aircraft was kosher, the are minima you need to consider especially if you don't own the land,.. that is (in NZ anyway) 500ft above structure (car, tractor, boat, house, picnic table) and 500ft either side. I have known two chaps be busted for this so watch out, if they have a camera and or video, get a lawyer or get hold of AOPA. In any case what the OP was asking is slightly alarming, but hey either way the Wright brothers win, or Darwin does.

[fujii]

Re the "can" part of the question. Yes you can. The same as murder, you can but is is illegal. Secondly, what type of aircraft, the question didn't say. It could be a para glider with a motor. Not registered and there is not a licence as such.