Acting as a safety pilot and logging hours

[number1pilot]

Hello

Iv been thinking of a situation and hope someone can answer it- There are 2 pilots one who is qualified to fly the c152 and one pilot who flies the PA-28. The pilots are planning to fly to Carlisle Airfield in the c152 and both pilots are only PPL qualified. The C152 pilot flies to Carlisle but can the pilot who has never flown the cessna fly it home and the cessna pilot act as as a safety pilot and log both trips as PIC time?

[BackPacker]

A "safety pilot" doesn't log anything, ever, in a single pilot aircraft. Not even when he's an "official" safety pilot because the PIC is required to fly with a safety pilot for medical reasons. (And if I'm not mistaken that's the only context in which there is a definition of 'safety pilot' in the first place.)

[Talkdownman]

The pilot who is qualified to fly the C152 would have an SEP rating and therefore qualified to fly a PA28. (Whether that pilot is permitted to fly the PA28 is an entirely different matter and down to the owner or operator of the PA28. It has nothing to do with Flight Crew Licensing.)
The pilot who is qualified to fly the PA28 would have an SEP rating and therefore qualified to fly a C152. (Whether that pilot is permitted to fly the C152 is an entirely different matter and down to the owner or operator of the C152. It has nothing to do with Flight Crew Licensing.)
Both the C152 and PA28 are Single Pilot Aircraft (ie. they require only one qualified pilot)
There can be only one PIC at any one time. Who is PIC when is determined before the flight takes place.
The 'other pilot' is not a member of the Flight Crew because it is an SPA.
The 'other pilot' is merely a passenger.

Now if either one of you is an FI or an FE then that would be a different matter...

Cue 'the rule-benders'...

[Pace]

Wow a 152 and PA28 ? pretty sure they need separate type ratings ? :ok:
As long as you do not crash the thing and do not both log P1 log it left or right!

Pace

[FlyingStone]

Wow a 152 and PA28 ? pretty sure they need separate type ratings ?

Don't forget HPA theory :)

[Level Attitude]

No1P

You say you are a PPL - would I be correct in thinking you've only recently
obtained your License?

Do you think a Flying Club/School would be happy allowing one of their aircraft to be flown
by someone who had never flown that make before
(even if they knew you were sitting next to the pilot in order to "advise")?

Two, low hour, PPL holders in the same aircraft with the PIC totally
unfamiliar with it, and hence having to rely on advice from his passenger,
sounds like a recipe for disaster and, I would suggest, is also illegal, given
that before flight it is the captains responsibility to ensure the intended
flight can be conducted safely.

You've posted a few times on "Can I do this?". If you're just shooting the breeze then fine;
but if you are actually contemplating doing these things I suggest you also ask yourself
"Should I do this? Is it a good idea?"

[thing]

As has been pointed out, a safety pilot doesn't log anything in a SEP. Most clubs would want you to do a high wing and low wing check out at least. Especially in the case of a 152 'cos when you turn the steering wheel something actually happens.

PS Also as an aside make sure you check the W+B. Some 152's don't like two well built gentlemen on board and a tank full of petrol. Not suggesting you are both well built of course but just in case you are.

[Pace]

LA

And to think they sent newly qualified pilots up in Spitfires with barely any hours!
A Cessna 150 to a PA28 now that is some going? :ugh:
If they are both basic PPLs they can legally log the hours depending on who is the handling pilot left or right.

PS Also as an aside make sure you check the W+B. Some 152's don't like two well built gentlemen on board and a tank full of petrol. Not suggesting you are both well built of course but just in case you are.

Most training flights are illegal in the 150 but the training organisations do not seem to care and have never done!

Pace

[thing]

Yeah but they sent young men up in Spitfires with low hours out of neccessity. A lot of them died and not through enemy action. A typical 28 does fly differently (OK land differently in different crosswind conditions) to a typical Cessna product, so what's wrong with spending 20 minutes in the cct with an instructor just to get the gen? It's not like it's a conversion onto a 747.

Edit: I know most 150/2's probably take off overweight on training but that doesn't mean it's OK. How many accident reports have you read where the pilot fills a 28 to the gunnels, puts three pax on board and promptly gets caught out by the laws of physics? Because it's always been 'OK' before?

[Pace]

so what's wrong with spending 20 minutes in the cct with an instructor just to get the gen?

Nothing at all is wrong with 20 minutes but neither is 20 minutes with a guy familiar with the the type.
Sadly the training organisations will fleece you out of a few hours to jump from one very basic simple aircraft to another.
for who s benefit?

Pace

[thing]

I see your point, but then I would say 20/30 minutes and half a dozen landings in a brisk crosswind would be enough. You get familiar with it by flying it around, but the flying around is much the same in a Piper as a Cessna.Certainly where I fly from that's what happens. Oval circuits get more landings in as well. Can't speak for the fleecers of whom I'm sure there are plenty. I fly 152/172/28 variants and can't say I felt under trained after a few landings.

[taybird]

Our club checkout for different (simple) SEP types such as C152, PA28-160, C172 can range from 30 minutes to as much as is needed by the student to handle the transition.

One thing not yet mentioned is the insurance side of things. While both parties may be SEP rated, and therefore technically legal from a licensing standpoint, are they both insured on this aeroplane?

If the aircraft is a club one, they will probably insist on a club checkout, in which case flying as P1 without the checkout will probably invalidate the insurance and is therefore illegal from an operations perspective. If the aircraft is privately owned, most (not all) are run on the basis of named pilots. information on the number of hours on type is usually requested, and an appropriate checkout with an instructor is often advised.

For the sake of a relatively short amount of time, it's really not hard to get a check on a different type. Would the PA28 pilot know where to find the fuel pump on the C152? And would the Cessna pilot know what do do with the flaps in the event of loss of power on a PA28? And vice versa in each case? (Both trick questions, obviously, but if you don't know the answers the you can see how 30 minutes with an instructor is a good idea.)

[md 600 driver]

Pace

Why do you say most training flights in a 150 are illegal ?

[mad_jock]

Because its very rare that instructors do W&B

It would be better to say that most flights after filling with fuel are outside M&B unless they are operated from known tight airfields eg Neitherthorpe.

Or you have a 60kg instructor.

[Pace]

MD

If you do a weight and balance calc on the 150 you would be surprised at the amount of training flights which go off overweight.

You see instructors and hefty students climb into a tanked 150 and those flights are illegal but blind eyes turned.

Infact you would be shocked at how little can be legally carried in a 150!

Pace

[mad_jock]

its also amazing what they can get off the ground with.

Saw a long range tanked C152, full fuel, a rugby playing pilot, a fat chuffer photographer, his big bag of kit, bag of tescos, two bags of over night kit load up on the apron and taxi off with the gear noticably bending.


Must have been over 100kg over weight.

[proudprivate]

A "safety pilot" doesn't log anything, ever, in a single pilot aircraft. Not even when he's an "official" safety pilot


Hold on a second : Under FAR 61.51, if the safety pilot is a required crewmember, and he is responsible for the safety of flight, he does log PIC time. The example that springs to mind is the safety pilot when the pilot in the left hand seat is doing instrument approaches or holds under the hood.


...or you have a 60kg instructor.


I've always preferred the 60 kg instructors. They never shouted at me, and they were fun to look at.

[mad_jock]

Hold on a second : Under FAR 61.51, if the safety pilot is a required crewmember, and he is responsible for the safety of flight, he does log PIC time. The example that springs to mind is the safety pilot when the pilot in the left hand seat is doing instrument approaches or holds under the hood.


If the poster has said it was a FAA question you would be correct.

As I am pretty certain this will be couple fo EASA PPL's doing the trip its not going to change things.

[BackPacker]

The FAA system is indeed different and there are situations there where no less than three people can log PIC/P1 simultaneously. But as the OP is in Scotland, I have assumed that the question would refer to EASA rules.

(How do you make an in-flight decision with three Pilots In Command on board? Do you vote? Or is there a Super-Pilot-In-Command role as well?:confused:)

[mad_jock]

more to the point which one gets there backside nailed if things go wrong.

[mhoeltken]

Hi,

Because its very rare that instructors do W&B

I won't be too sure about that. After all, the 150/152 is a two seat aircraft and with the instructors' weight being mostly constant, he just has to do w&b once to know the airplanes limits and start from there. I am just stepping up to the C150 (i.e. making my FI-Rating) and was supprised as how much that bird can haul, legally. In case of our Clubs 150, this adds to 240 kg payload. Put in an 85 kg instructor and you can load 130 kg student and 36 liters usable fuel, witch longs for an hour of traffic circuits and half an hour reserve. It's not the usual overweight microlight or powered glider. Most instructors I know have made these calculations and act that way. Besides, it is a valuable lesson for the student to do the calculations once more and present it to the instructor.

I am sure, there is much neglect to w&b, but this will be independent of the use of a specific aircraft or flying mission. And mostly, this isn't done by instructors (or aerospace engineers for that matter), but by those kinds of pilot who tend to be careless in all matters of flight. Usually that kind of pilot, who thinks GAFOR would be a sufficient weather briefing.

many happy landings,

[B2N2]

Saw a long range tanked C152, full fuel, a rugby playing pilot, a fat chuffer photographer, his big bag of kit, bag of tescos, two bags of over night kit load up on the apron and taxi off with the gear noticably bending.


Must have been over 100kg over weight.

Did you notify the authorities?

[mad_jock]

Well if you fly out of Merzbruck I am not suprised you work it out. Especially in summer.

And most schools in the UK fill it because its a royal pain in the backside getting fuel. And they usually fill up on the way back in without a clue what the next flight has on.

Alot of schools also have over 1000m of tarmac as well.

Full tanks is about 70kg Which then brings you down to 170kg so max 85kg per person.

Long range you have a 100kg onboard.

Quite alot of students haven't seen 85kg since they were teenagers same with the instructors.

Doesn't help when quite a few examinors who are well over 100kg will quite happily declare 85kg request full tanks then when the student states they are still over weight by 4kg declares that they have just been for a dump so the student can remove 4kg from the declared weights.

And those weights are for the manufactures dry weights most if not all old cessnas will be 20-30kg more than that.

[mad_jock]

I most certainly did not B2N2 because the CAA would do nothing about it.

They would have almost certaily replied that they required proof that it was overloaded.

And watching the bowser stick over 100 ltrs onboard then watch two chunky blokes get on with baggage and abundance of pies and juice does not make it evidence.

And the event happening Scotland will mean they won't touch it with a barge pole.

[chrisN]

BackPacker posted that the only bit of law relating to safety pilots is in relation to medical issues. (“A "safety pilot" doesn't log anything, ever, in a single pilot aircraft. Not even when he's an "official" safety pilot because the PIC is required to fly with a safety pilot for medical reasons. (And if I'm not mistaken that's the only context in which there is a definition of 'safety pilot' in the first place.)”

Re definition of 'safety pilot', not so, I believe.

From a paper I wrote in 2000, having researched safety pilot issues for the BGA:

--------

I have considered the following two situations recognised as involving safety pilots;

 The only case referred to Rules of the Air, as far as I or the CAA could find, is for simulated instrument flying. Rule 6 of “Rules of the Air” (see section 7.1 of BGA Laws and Rules) does not require a safety pilot in this situation to be an instructor, or to be P1; only to have an adequate field of vision, to have access to dual controls, and by implication to be able to assume temporary control should that be needed to avoid conflict with other aircraft etc.

 The other well-recognised situation is the need for a safety pilot in the case of a degree of incapacity for medical reasons. I am advised that such a safety pilot need not be designated P1. If the safety pilot is there only to be a better set of eyes or limbs, there is no need for an instructor’s rating, provided that no element of instruction or supervision is required - it is akin to mutual flying. Even if the safety pilot has an instructor’s rating, but no element of instruction or supervision is intended at the outset of the flight, the instructor would not be on duty as an instructor, whether or not P1, . . .
--------

I agree with others that only one can log P1/PIC time and the other cannot. As to which, that has to be determined before the flight.

Chris N

[Wageslave]

I agree with others that only one can log P1/PIC time and the other cannot. As to which, that has to be determined before the flight.


Quite. As for the poster above who said the two pilots can log time according to who was handling I can only assume he never studied Air Law or has forgotten it. Better go back to the books friend!

[ExSp33db1rd]

Wow a 152 and PA28 ? pretty sure they need separate type ratings ?

NZ doesn't have SEP etc. each and every 'difference' is a new type rating, e.g. I needed two type ratings for a C-152 with manual flap ( i.e. you pulled the handbrake type lever ) and then one with an electric selector, then two ratings for a PA 28 140 HP and the next one with 180 HP engine ( different 'power plant')