BA Recruitment

[u0062]

BA assessment With CTC in January I know there has been info on here before However does any one have any information on what to expect.
Thanks in anticipation

[Narrow Runway]

Expect a thorough examination of, and dig into, both your resourcefulness and punctuation skills.

[wiggy]

Narrow Runway..:E:ok:

As an act of kindness to the O.P:

http://www.pprune.org/interviews-jobs-sponsorship/499246-british-airways-future-pilot-programme-2013-a-19.html#post7572317

[Wirbelsturm]

Good job the ability to search a forum isn't a discussion point!
:E

[Callsign Kilo]

The use of one's initiative definitely featured during the assessments. I would buckle down and do a lot more research whilst you still have the time. The competition is unbelievably high, irregardless if its DEP or FPP positions.

There is a lot of hoop jumping however unfortunately jumping through each one doesn't guarantee a position. A number of potential DEPs were informed 'bad luck, not this time' fairly recently. More an end result of the bmi merger than the recruiters getting it entirely wrong. My thoughts would be that the FPP won't suffer from the same headache. Best of luck.

[u0062]

Useful information would be good !!!!!!!:ugh::ugh:

[Callsign Kilo]

u0062

Get off your ass and find it yourself. I think that appears to be the general consensus of this thread. A number of current BA pilots have dropped this hint, some have suggested that a go get it attitude is a prerequisite. You were even given a link to the FPP thread on another part of the forum. If you believe this is a career for those who expect everything on request then I wouldn't even bother my backside showing up at CTC in January. They'll see through you in an instant. No point in wishing you luck, maybe a personality adjustment would be more appropriate. Better add it to your list to Santa!

[747 Downind]

u0062,

There's loads of data on this forum, even a google search I'm sure will lead you here eventually, there is extensive and I'm sure accurate data out there. I wouldn't bank on any recent information being relayed over the last recent assessments. To my knowledge, many went through all the hoops, some including the sim, only to be told to sod off as they now want cadets. I'm sure you can understand their disappointment and annoyance..of course BA have done this before so no surprises there!!

Maybe your thread would be better suited in 'interviews, jobs and sponsorship' section..this forum (in my opinion) tends to be more geared towards the interests of experienced pilots

Regards, do the research, good luck

[ALLOW]

Any chance of some last minute DEP recruitment next summer for the last of hold poolers hanging on...
I see some extra 777's will be arriving in September and October......

[bylgw]

doubt it. over crewed on the jumbo and littlebus right now

[BitMoreRightRudder]

Yep unlikely. Word from the inside is nothing until around October 2013, and that will almost certainly be the first group of FPP cadets.

[ALLOW]

Pity......very disappointing for the 90 or so hold poolers and of course second time swimmers from 2010.

Maybe next time we might make it.

3rd time lucky (for some)

[Globally Challenged]

u0062

Save yourself the expense of the petrol, it will be a total waste for you as you will be wheedled out within seconds of walking through the door with an attitude like that.

[u0062]

Thanks for your interesting posts. Found all the info !!!:ok:

[Kempus]

I drowned in the pool last week. DEP's if any will be FY 2014, 12yrs+ to command and a contract which will bear the same headers but little else. Oh and all in a declining industry in the UK due to government greed and overspending.

A lot of us worked our backsides off to drown unceremoniously. If you put the effort in it pays off.


Sometimes.

[Wirbelsturm]

Kempus,

There is alot of infighting going on at the moment over the draining of the pool and the ludicrous position of having pilots who have successfully completed the selection process being cast off again.

The fight is between the recruitment department who want to retain those selected and HR who are insistant that that is the BA way.

Only time will tell the outcome. :ugh:

[Fat Dog]

Lets home common sense prevails and the HR 'bods' are overruled...

[2 Whites 2 Reds]

Would someone PLEASE inject some common sense into the airline's and dispand the HR Mafia......let Pilot's get back to selecting people and put an end to Math's Test's, Psychometric Test's, Verbal Reasoning Test's, Group Exercise's, Spatial Awareness Test's and everything else that they can dream up to make themselves feel important in between.

I didn't apply to BA DEP last time and while that was perhaps a mistake (isn't 20/20 hindsight wonderful!), I can't help but think I just might have ended up as another swimmer recently drowned in the hold pool. I feel for you folks, hopefully DEP will open up again in the next couple of years and we can all jump aboard the school bus to the pool once again!

Evening All.

[overstress]

In keeping with the postings above, spelling and punctuation are important, 2 Whites, I have seen the essays being marked! Good luck, (check your apostrophes though).

[chocolateracer]

12+ years to command?

[overstress]

At least 12.

[Callsign Kilo]

I hope and pray that the recruitment chaps at "The Rivers," the guys that actually understand the perquisite skill-set that a commercial pilot must have are able persuade Human Resources that times have moved on. It is extremely unlikely that a commercial pilot in constant practice with continuous training and assessment is going to be any different than the one who walked out of Cranebank 18 months previously. If anything they should be a better product.

I have nothing against how BA assess their DEPs. However the 12 to 18 month rule is a killer and seems to bite the airline in the rear when a bit of a swerve ball is thrown into the mix. The irony here is that BA could require DEPs in the not to distant future. It is a heart wrenching fact, especially when you've put everything into something that offers a great deal and then watch it all crumble away at the last minute.

I really hope a particular pilot recruitment manager wins this battle of common sense.

[Al Murdoch]

Since when has common sense had anything to do with anything at BA?

[ALLOW]

Thanks for the info Wirbelstrum!!! Your inputs are greatly appreciated and more often than not seem to hit the nail on the head!
Good to know LC and company are still fighting for us. Thanks!!! I hope you succeed!!
I can accept the HR view to an extent but surely an informal interview in LHR would be sufficient to prove our commitment and extend our time a little longer. Dare I say it but this will save BA an awful lot of cash.....
Not only that they will have a very experienced and varied group of pilots ready to start at short notice.
A win win no??

[Pontius]

irregardless if its DEP or FPP positions. :yuk:

So, does that mean 'regarding' then?

Pilot's get back to selecting people and put an end to Math's Test's, Psychometric Test's, Verbal Reasoning Test's, Group Exercise's, Spatial Awareness Test's

An excellent example of what not to write :ok:

There was a time when the pilots on the selection team were more involved with the written tests and actually got to mark the essays. I abhor aberrant apostrophes and this sort of thing would have gone straight in the bin.

Funnily enough, this helps to explain some of the reasoning behind the tests. Every man and his dog that applies for DEP has an ATPL and a shed-load of hours. Most of them can fly, although I was surprised at some of the efforts in the sim :eek: So it comes down to other tests to weed out the small number of pilots who are selected versus the number that apply; hey presto, a bunch of other hoops through which to jump.

You'll be surprised to know the pilot selectors actually work closely with the HR people and help design and modify the selection procedures. HR do not dictate the way things are done and are actually a vital part of the set-up to ensure everything is done legally and according to best practice etc. Yes, those are mealy-mouthed words but in today's litigious society it's important to have people that are experts in the field and help keep the amateurs (pilot selectors) on the straight and narrow. No, I'm not HR. Yes, I was a selector. No, I don't think the holding pool times are long enough.

[shaun ryder]

In keeping with the postings above, spelling and punctuation are important, 2 Whites, I have seen the essays being marked! Good luck, (check your apostrophes though).


WTF has this got to do with flying aeroplanes?

Good at grammar gets you in it seems? A few questionable types make it through with limited hand skills for sure. But great at writing essays. :ok:

[bylgw]

Maybe it has something to do with being able to interpret the OPS manuals?

No system is perfect. Thomson's is/was similar to BA's, but you still end up with the good, the bad and the ugly. Take all the HR bull' out, just have a nice chat and sim check, and you still end up with the good, the bad and the ugly. No system is perfect.

[NigelOnDraft]

WTF has this got to do with flying aeroplanes?Not a lot, but then this thread is about BA recruitment, not being a Test Pilot.

BA's requirements "assume" you can fly an aircraft to the required (which is not exceptional) standard, and BA will provide the training to maintain / improve that.

The assessment / application process is designed to find those individuals who meet BA's requirements which include leadership, representing the company, going the extra mile, potential for training / management etc. Such matters as taking the care, and having the education, to write well are pretty fundamental to that.

[Full Left Rudder]

Wirbelsturm,

Just in case any of us holder poolers could be harbouring false hope from your post, do you know if the current in house discussions between recruitment and HR are regarding the current hold pool or is it with respect to future recruitment?

[Iver]

Going forward, what are the likely fleets that will require staffing with new joiners? Let's assume you meet the qualifications with room to spare - not on the lowest end. In the coming years, will new delivery aircraft like the 787 and even A380 (SO) options? Are former BMI pilots primarily assigned to short haul or are they being spread out among the fleets based on vacancies/seniority?

Should a potential newhire expect a Bus/737 slot over the next few years as newer aircraft arrive and existing pilots bid them?

Cheers

[Callsign Kilo]

The campaign from Oct 2010 saw type streaming due to number requirements/training capacity. A few unrated guys went to the 744.

Not totally sure about the campaign ending in 2008, however i believe it was mostly shorthaul.

In 2005 quite a few went to the 777.

The FPP scheme ensures cadets are prioritised to shorthaul. BA pilots are entitled to bid across fleets after a number of years, however a bid doesn't guarantee acceptance. I suppose no one really knows what the fleet requirements will be going forward. It would depend on too many variables. It probably doesn't matter to most people attempting to join BA anyway

[overstress]

shaun ryder, NoD has eloquently answered your question.

It's all about getting into BA. They assume you can fly an aircraft and operate as a crew member.

Iver, if you use phrases like going forward, non-sentences like In the coming years, will new delivery aircraft like the 787 and even A380 (SO) options? and descriptions such as potential newhire you could do well in BA management... :ok:

[Craggenmore]

Back in the 1980's, BA employed a chap called Robin Acton. He served as the head of pilot recruitment for many years. He was also largely responsible for the process that you have all undergone since.

At recruitment time he would write to his selectors beforehand with guidelines to be followed.

One letter that I have of his from the mid 1980's states........

"...it is strongly advised at this moment in time to avoid selecting married pilots..."

So firstly, if you we're a married pilot who failed selection in the mid 1980's, now you know.

And secondly, do these practices still exist within BA?

[2 Whites 2 Reds]

Pontius.....

Apologies for the poor grammar in my previous post. Clearly it bothered you but in my defence I had just woken up and was still a bit jaded to say the least. The patronizing tone is rather uncalled for though. The amount of effort I put into my CV etc is far greater than the effort I put into posting on PPRUNE. I'm sure you're the same.

I do understand the importance of attention to detail and therefore why you would throw an application in the bin if it turned up on your desk with poor spelling and grammar etc. Frankly it says alot about the person if they can't be arsed at such an early stage......but just bear in mind that a well placed apostrophe won't save you when an engine goes bang after V1!

Enjoy the rest of your weekend and back to the topic at hand.....BA Recruitment.

Cheers

2W2R

[Count Niemantznarr]

The Future Pilot Programme is a very poor deal compared to the old Cadetship.

Also the FPP's will never earn the money the DEP's earn, whereas before the Cadets would meet the DEP payscale at paypoint A5.

[Cough]

Count,

Please provide the reference for your statement...

Also the FPP's will never earn the money the DEP's earn, whereas before the Cadets would meet the DEP payscale at paypoint A5.

Thanks! I believe this to be rubbish, but happy and willing for you to prove me wrong!

[fade to grey]

It never ceases to amaze me that people apply, pass, hold, kicked out....go through it all again and again.

At what point do you say "'I'm not being treated this badly" and decide to not bother again. I mean, you really must have no self respect to be shafted more than once.

Now I understand BA offers the best pay, good rosters eventually, poor upgrade opportunities and an absolute bucketload of PC and incomprehensible management w£&k speak. But really...

[Abbey Road]

12+ years to command?At least 12. That is just the way it is, I'm afraid. The situation is likely to be made worse by the BMI integration. Just another fact of life, but it doesn't mean the job is an unpleasant one!


The Future Pilot Programme is a very poor deal compared to the old Cadetship.

Also the FPP's will never earn the money the DEP's earn, whereas before the Cadets would meet the DEP payscale at paypoint A5. Count Niemantznarr, your point is ....... what? There are still an overwhelming number of applicants for the program because the pay, conditions, opportunities and route structure are still notably better than other UK and European employers. Your pronouncements indicate shallow knowledge and point to an underlying issue - you don't like pilots, particularly those in BA? Previously you have spouted such as this:
BMI cabin crew are not going to join the Legacy crew, that is for sure. There has been very little information about what will happen to the BMI cabin crew, but I feel there is a surprise coming.

Two things may happen; either they will end up on Mixed Fleet, or they will be the nucleus for BA Express. Mixed Fleet is being pulled off of the PHX route now after losing ATL. The future for this fleet due to 900 hour rule, is shorthaul and short longhaul.Talk about highlighting your shortcomings! Got all that wrong, didn't you? Perhaps your time would be better spent spinning your untruths amongst your militant cabin crew colleagues? They might believe you. :hmm:

[Libertine Winno]

As far as I know, FPP'ers will equate to the same salary as DEP FO's once the 7 years of bond repayment (£1,000/month)...?

[Callsign Kilo]

Fade to grey

People aren't being treated badly. Personal experience testifies that the recruiters have been both forthcoming and approachable throughout the duration of the hold pool. The pool 'officially' hasn't been closed (a la 2008) even though it has been explained in no uncertain terms that DEP recruitment isn't anticipated in 2013. There has been much 'behind the scenes' suggestion that debate still exists over what can be done for those 80 odd people that have been through selection. Only time will tell on that one, however it's probably correct in not hoping for too much. Anything else is a bonus, right?

BA are no different than anyone else. They are just a business whose primary function is to transport people from A to B in a tin can with wings. They are part of the same ****ty industry that makes people redundant, messes with peoples lives, raises their hopes and dashes them. They make no promise to offer enployment after passing selection and make this extremely clear with a big red disclaimer at the bottom of the application for their DEP program. In my experience they treat people differently than a lot of the airlines that I've experienced. Maybe that's why people go through selection, in the hope that they might get somewhere where they are treated that little bit better.

[chocolateracer]

Abbey Road,

I think the BMI integration would lower the time to command. At least that's what BALPA have been saying!:P

[Stocious]

FPP payscales join the DEP payscales at year 8.

By my sums, if you count the extra £12000 p/a 'bond repayment' payments during the last few years of that scale, FPP cadets will actually receive more money p/a than equivalent year DEP. Over the course of the 7 years they will of course receive less overall, but it's not a huge amount overall.

[chocolateracer]

Stocious,

You're right there. Due to only paying income tax on the published GROSS salary from the FFP payscale chart. The £1000 per month is worked out similar to a mortgage repayment plan. Over the 7 years the £1000 per month is made up of an INTEREST and an CAPITAL REPAYMENT amount. Both totalling £1000.

In month one the ratio goes something like this:-

Interest payment -> £506.00
Captial repayment -> £494.00

In month 84 it's like this:-

Interest payment -> £15.00
Captial repayment -> £985.00

You pay no tax on the capital repayment portion (as it's your money coming back to you). However, you don't pay the full income tax on the interest payment only a "withholding tax" of 20%.

So as you rightly say although your gross is less the net figure is slightly higher.

[Tay Cough]

I think the BMI integration would lower the time to command. At least that's what BALPA have been saying!

If all goes according to plan, it should reduce the time to a longhaul command. In theory, this will also reduce the time to a shorthaul command as well as folks move across, although as shorthaul slots will progressively be given over to longhaul flying instead so this may not be quite as clear cut.

[Abbey Road]

I think the BMI integration would lower the time to command. At least that's what BALPA have been saying!:P As Tay Cough points out, it may lower time to a longhaul command, but I think that will only be for a very brief period, and only for a few people. Of course, longhaul commands take substantially longer to achieve than the shorthaul commands.

I think BALPA have got it wrong. Airbus shorthaul is now overborne - due to the BMI integration, BA now has too many Airbus captains, and is offering limited voluntary redundancy to them (along with the 747 skippers) because there are too many of them. Very few are likely to take it up (and at least one man on the BA Company Council, who should have a good feel for this, believes that too!).

Why will this affect time to command? Because the ex-BMI skippers will likely sit on the Airbus for a long time, so there is a substantial portion of the fleet that will not 'move on'. The much-mooted (and yet to happen .....) longhaul expansion will be largely a one-time thing, but once the fleets stabilise from this expansion it will all be back at square one. The overarching influence to all this is the age-legislation and the taxation monster, which means that many skippers are staying on longer than even many of themselves thought they would. They want to put more value in to their pension pots, but they have to prevent the taxman getting his hands on substantial amounts too. It produces a strange dynamic which, when tied to their position at or near the top of a generous payscale, means they stay longer than they are prepared to publicly admit.

When the dust has settled, I do believe that BALPA's predictions will be well wide of the mark. There may be a very short-lived but modest acceleration to command, for some (a few) but when the concrete sets it will be back to the very long waiting for the vast majority. IMHO.

[Wirbelsturm]

The entire premise behind the BMI integration was to enable the use of the BMI shorthaul slots for the more profitable Long Haul routes. As the current market for LH hulls is a little full with a couple of middle eastern airlines taking up much of the production line the ability to procure LH hulls is going to be a long one.

As the slots migrate across then the requirement for both RHS and LHS increases with the necessity for extra crewing per hull. BA envisage a substantial increase in pilot requirements leading to a reduction in time to command. Also the generated commands are not give 1:1 BA:BMI they are distributed at 10:1 BA:BMI due to the BMI pilot workforce being approximately 1/10th the size of BA thus increasing the potential command opportunities for BA SFO's.

We WILL NOT SEE INSTANT RESULTS! These transitions will take time. The biggest question is what is the time scale. Whilst the economic slump continues nobody knows. When the economy picks up the BA (under IAG but seperate from IB) will be in a position to expand its LH operations, for example to China where a new route has been announced today. There have been times in BA where pilots went direct from 2 rings to 4 and times when commands have taken 17+ years. It all depends when you join and the demographics of the airline.

We are just coming to the end of the 10 year retirement age increase and subsequent drag on the seniority system. Change will occur I would just challenge anyone to give a timescale on it.

Good luck!

[overstress]

the ability to procure LH hulls is going to be a long one

IB have a lot of long haul hulls not making much money... :}

[Wirbelsturm]

IB have a lot of long haul hulls not making much money... http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/badteeth.gif

Very true!!!! I would suggest that if Keith Williams sees the 777 as 'old technology' then I would love to see what his comments on the A340 would be!!!!:E

[Charlie Pop]

I think the BMI integration would lower the time to command. At least that's what BALPA have been saying!

Abbey Road has it on the money. There'll be a one time brief window of opportunity for those nearly in the frame for a long haul command but everyone else is screwed. It was clear early on that BALPAs sums didn't add up, hence their refusal to explain their working on the matter. In typical BALPA fashion the deal was given the hard sell, opposition to it was shouted down and belittled, and now they are coming up with endless excuses about why things aren't working out as they said they would. My favourite was 'Dear Leader' saying that he now regretted saying 'No BA pilot disadvantaged', the very axiom on which the deal was sold to members! Perhaps be should have said no BALPA rep disadvantaged?

[FANS]

If BA's time to command was 25 years, people would still queuing around the block....

The one certainty is that those joining today will be on much worse T&Cs when they become a captain compared to today's captains.

[Full Left Rudder]

That's an interesting perspective FANS. Thinking like that may make the changes at BA easier to swallow, but I think it hides the true facts. BA is on the slide towards the Ts and Cs of it's competitors, as is the mentality of the management.

Whilst BA is doubtless an interesting prospective employer, the sad reality is it is far from head and shoulders above the rest these days. There are companies out there where you will earn more across your career, have better job security, be home every night, much shorter command time, work less etc etc (and I don't just mean outside the UK).

Of course people want different things, but for a lot of people BA is not the ultimate goal anymore because it no longer ticks most, let alone all, of the boxes.

[FANS]

FLR - BA has to have some alignment with its competitors, but it's still head and shoulders above almost all. I think its lastest FPP is still fantastic vis-a-vis what other UK based airlines are offering in today's climate.

BA should not be thought of as a dream job, and won't suit all individuals but for someone joining an airline today and wanting to be in the UK, it's the best place to be.

[chocolateracer]

I agree FANS. Best job security going. Best variety of flying. Best pay in UK. Best rostering. Excellent staff travel packages worth a gross figure of at least £50,000 if used for long haul trips. OK pension. Excellent infrastructure and a good operating philosophy.

[Charlie Pop]

Excellent staff travel packages worth a gross figure of at least £50,000 if used for long haul trips

What a peculiar and arbitrary comment. Do you think there are many people in BA doing a £1000 equivalent flight per week on staff travel?

[Charlie Pop]

Well they're not really firm and they're not really Club or First class. You can still be offloaded, and if the premium cabins are full you will be down the back. If you don't have any nominees to travel with you you'll see far less benefit. If you have ten children you might see far more benefit. If you don't use your tickets to fly to long haul you'll benefit less perhaps? £50000 is a figure plucked out of the air and incorrectly equates an uncertain standby ticket in economy class with a firm commercial ticket in a premium class. What you are receiving is a very different service from that which the commercial passenger has paid for. You can guarantee that if staff travel really was worth £50K gross then you'd be paying 40% tax on that value to HMRC.

[Wirbelsturm]

I can say that last year I used ST alot for the family and the total, when reckoned using full fare tickets, was in excess of £50000. However, that must be tempered with the reality that you might not get on and if the flight is full it becomes a ST lottery!! First class returns to SFO, HND, EZE, PVG and SIN. All confirmed, all on time and well looked after. Not once bumped.

However, 99% of the downroute hotels welcome family guests and offer fantastic discounts to BA staff when travelling on holiday and the route network encompasses most major cities world wide. Growing as we speak.

All told, not a bad benefit.

[Full Left Rudder]

I don't mean or want to be confrontational, but saying BA "won't suit all individuals but for someone joining an airline today and wanting to be in the UK, it's the best place to be" does seem somewhat contradictory??

Other airlines (including in the UK) offer things that BA can't offer, simple as that. It may be heads and shoulders above the rest for you, based on your own set of personal career wishes, but I would be careful to subscribe to the idea that your personal wishes are shared universally.

Chocolateracer, I agree with some of what you say but not all -

Best job security going - looking at the financial histories of said companies it would be very easy to argue that the likes of the middle east airlines and even easyJet have better job security than BA (granted I ignore the Flexicrew issue at easyJet). I doubt there has been anytime at all since the formation of these companies that permanent employees have feared for their job security. That can certainly not be said for BA.

Best variety of flying- agreed.

Best pay in UK - on paper, but most probably not in reality under the new 34 year paypoint scheme when considered across a whole career. Granted it depends on several uncontrollable factors, least of all being time to command.

Let me prefix this back of a fag packet calculation argument with the assumption you make captain in 5 years at EZY. It is also only a comparison of short haul pay, which seems fair as someone choosing to fly for easyJet over BA would not be likely to have long haul flying at the top of their wish list.......
As a new joiner in BA you would need to be a captain with 19 years in the company to reach the same level of pay as a newly promoted captain with the orange brigade. Similarly an EZY captain with 10 years loyalty bonus earns the same as a 21 year captain at BA. At this point the EZY pay doesn't increase any more, so from year 21-34 you earn more at BA, but only an average of circa 12000 a year more for that 14 years. The average amount less earned in the preceding 21 years will be notably more (for example, a year 5 FO at BA would earn over 40,000 less in just that year than a 5 year captain at EZY).

The point here is not to try to be quantitative with numbers, because there are always going to be variables, but simply to be indicative in showing that BA is not necessarily the best paid job in the UK. In fact it is unlikely to be so. Similar although less compelling arguments could be made for Monarch with their rapid expansion and consequent relatively short time to command.

Best rostering - as long as you are senior. Debatable as a junior. Some
prefer bidding systems where seniority isn't the be all and end all, but a fairness system is used. Other airlines offer this and have happy employees as a consequence.

Excellent staff travel packages worth a gross figure of at least £50,000 if used for long haul trips - enough said by others on this, but doubtless a great package.

OK pension - agreed. Still pretty good by UK standards, but I am told that the pension deal at Virgin is better.

Excellent infrastructure and a good operating philosophy - agreed.

Like I said, I don't wish to be confrontational. I just think it is evident that whilst BA is still a great job it is not the stand out job it used to be.

[Wirbelsturm]

FLR,

Money isn't everything! I would rather have a few years more in the RHS and less in the LHS on a LH fleet with BA then 5 years RHS, 40 LHS flying the Orange grind on the same routes in the same jet! Irrespective of the money!

As you say, horses for courses and doesn't affect me now anyway ;-)

[FANS]

FLR - I genuinely am intrigued and do not wish to be confrontational....

If you were to join a UK airline today on its current T&Cs, where is better than BA if you don't mind being based in the SE?


No one is saying it's the same job it was, but the industry is very different from 20 years ago anyway.

Let's not spend all night discussing staff travel merits or undertaking a verbal reasoning assessment:

won't suit all individuals but for someone joining an airline today and wanting to be in the UK, it's GENERALLY the best place to be" does seem somewhat contradictory?? word GENERALLY INSERTED

[Full Left Rudder]

Wirbelsturm, I agree entirely. Hence why I wait patiently (but to no avail it would seem) in the BA hold pool despite having said prospects at easyJet.

Nonetheless, if I were given the chance to move to BA it would definitely not be the "no-brainer" decision that it used to be. That's all I am trying to say.

FANS - I think you missed my point. Airlines other than BA offer things that people are interested in, including several things BA can't offer. So for people wanting those things any airline can potentially be better. My point was the gap between what BA offers and what other airlines offer is not the chasm it once was, and consequently many people would be better suited elsewhere.

[chocolateracer]

FLR,

A great post.

[FANS]

FLR , you re right, I don't understand your point. In the uk and particularly the SE, for airlines that have recently recruited why would "many people would be better suited elsewhere" ? Which are these airlines ?

[4468]

FLR

Many people outside of BA don't completely understand the remuneration package, nor the associated lifestyle options available. That's entirely understandable. An important point to make is that very many BA pilots choose not to live in the SE of England (many don't even live in the UK!) though of course our job is based there.

Combined with the excellent staff travel package, fleet choices, and our worldwide network, the lifestyle and tax options are virtually limitless!

I cannot believe anybody looking at forty plus years of four sector days could view such a prospect as anything other than a stepping stone.

For that reason alone, the opportunities BA offer are ABSOLUTELY head and shoulders above anything else in the UK. The pilot retention figures are staggering for a reason!

The only caveat I would add, is that it does depend on one's age, and how much time one has 'invested' in another airline. Also, if you are happy to work in the desert/far east for bosses of a different culture, then by all means fill your boots. You'll earn the money.

[OBK!]

FLR

Got to say I agree with others. Prior to coming here I looked at the finances and was expecting to see quite a large cut in net take home (was a 6yr SFO in a larger charter company before hand). Quite the opposite has happened and compared to the charter airlines' summer, I'm working a whole lot less on average.

I've already racked up the retail equivalent of £15K in flights...and have had nothing less than club/first to date. ST is amazing. Long may it continue. I can easily see how it's worth upwards of £50K per year if you're in to travelling the globe in comfort.

Fair point though, other airlines have some great offers. My previous company offered part year working for only a small cut in salary which was excellent. It was a hard decision to leave (I initially forced a pessimistic view of BA's Ts & Cs on myself to be absolutely sure) but having been here this long, it's clear it was a good decision. Gutted for those who joined after PP34 and after 450 seniority numbers, and even more so for those waiting in the pool. I hope the recruiters manage to keep the holdpoolers longer than 18 months.

[Full Left Rudder]

Fair enough. Thanks for everyone's thoughts. It is never a black and white issue with things like this.

Merry Christmas to everyone.

[4468]

Just to link this to the BA pilot volountary redundancies: The terms of those redundancy payouts would require no pilot being taken on prior to Oct 2013, in order for the payments to make sense. Frankly that will be a struggle, because we have no overall surplus of heads at the moment, we just have people sitting in the wrong seats!!

[Bengerman]

Two questions for Full Left Rudder:

1. How many pilots have voluntarily left EZY in the last 10 years to join BA?

2. How many pilots have voluntarily left BA in the last 10 years to join EZY?

[Full Left Rudder]

1. Lots
2. Not many

But I am talking about now, not the past. If we could jump on 10 years from now and then re-ask these questions I suspect the chasm would be considerably smaller. I say this in light of the new 34 point pay scale, being shoved behind a bulge of some 400 odd places in the seniority list by the BMI deal, the increased workload recently imposed on BA pilots, the unfortunate position of now bring tied at the hip with a money pit of an airline in the form of Iberia etc.

Again, BA is still a good prospect. But not leaps and bounds ahead of the rest anymore for people considering joining the company.

[zzz]

Fifteen years ago I did the sums. I was a Captain in a regional airline owned by KLM. After lots of deliberation I accepted the job with BA and joined on the 777. I thought I would take a pay cut to move but was pleasantly surprised to see that, with all the extra bits and pieces, I was soon taking home more than I had done previously. After five years I took a command on the 737. Big pay rise and fun flying. After a couple of years of that my circumstances changed and I moved abroad. When my 737 freeze expired I thought what now? How about the jumbo. Back to the RHS and a small pay cut but now quite senior. Cape Town and Hong Kong every month. Fantastic. Four years later. Bored with the RHS. How about go part time and get a command on the Airbus. Huge network, loads of interesting nightstops or shorter day trips if preferred.

That is one of the beauties of BA. so many opportunities. Whatever you want to do, long haul, short haul, management, training, full time, part time. Live anywhere in the world, it's all available.

[bad bear]

being shoved behind a bulge of some 400 odd places in the seniority list by the BMI deal,

There were only 332 BMI pilots at the time of the merger and not all chose to transfer.Some took redundancy rather than move. I would guess less than 300 will eventually stay. It is possible some will take the VR that is on offer.

[Callsign Kilo]

If you are talking about the collective combination of the bmi pilots and new DEP joiners you are possibly talking about 400 places on the seniority list since time of application and stage one assessment. Plus a move from PP24 to PP34 in this time. Recollecting the recruiters buzz phrases of 'seniority is everything in BA' and 'seniority equals lifestyle,' I can understand where FLR is coming from. Not that it matters now for those in the pool anyway.

Happy Xmas to all my fellow swimmers. :ok:

[SkyRocket10]

The latest info to come from company management suggests that the 90+ FPP's that will join BA from Q3 2013 through 2014 will provide all new entrants for this period. Following this, the 70 or so additional FPP's that are about to be selected will start joining the airline from early 2015 onwards. It is envisaged that these recruits will make up approximately 50% of the new entrants, with the remainder to come from DEP. Therefore as things currently stand recruitment for DEP's will re-commence late 2014 at the very earliest.
Beyond 2015 retirements will begin to pick up, and there is also the expected growth in LH hulls. With any luck this will be the time when recruitment really starts to kick in.

[SpGo]

Full left rudder:
with the assumption you make captain in 5 years at EZY

Next year 50 commands are planned, with 1000+ F/O's it will take a new joiner 20 years to command. A bit pessimistic probably, but I would count on at least 10 years.

[FANS]

Everyone should know that BA is not some oasis, but I'm struggling with where all of these people think is so much better in 2012.

[thunderbird-1]

Well, I don't think EZY will stick with 200 airframe. The expansion may have stop for now but unlike BA,AF,LH, easy has the potential to double its size. Ryanair has over 300 planes and I think ezy will match at least that.
20 years to command would mean ezy has financial problems which is quite the opposite right now. 10 years is Unrealistic. Unlike BA, easy has no seniority system. If you join has an experienced FO with enough hours you can join the queue for command straight away. If you join as a cadet it will take at least 4-5 years before having the hours to join the queue. So if you were referring to cadets, yes, it may get close to 10 years for now, but 7-8 more likely.
How many FO's are in BA? How many FO's eligible for command are in EZY?
You will find more people's leaving than the national career and still some retiring.
Anyway, both are different but excellent airlines to work for.
I would personally choose BA as a cadet and easy as an experienced FO, but hey, we are all different :rolleyes:

All the best for 2013 :ok: