BA/bmi merger (was Virgin & Balpa - bmi next ?)

[upandoffmyside]

Seems bmi mainline CC having a challenging time in negotiations with BACC over possible "integration", if EU allows purchase to go through.

Many bmi Balpa members may eventually have to considering the role of Balpa HQ in this and their future options for membership of, and support from alternative pilot associations in the UK.

While there are a lot of "ifs" still, it seems from the current crew room murmurs that if this process carries on in the same direction then there could well be a few hundred bmi mainline members leaving Balpa to find alternative representation.

Given the feelings about Balpa in Virgin - is there still a move towards an alternative association - rumours about a link up with Unite, or a stronger and growing IPA ?

This could be something of a major breakpoint for Balpa and its association with the "Independents", but from the complete silence from HQ they don't seem to get it .....

[Super Stall]

I hope you've read the recent posting from the BACC chairman on the Balpa general members forum.

BA have stopped recruiting. If the EU allow the merger then the slot cost is looking to be far higher than anyone expected. It may make the proposition unworkable.

Either way there 'aint enough seats to go around and the one thing everybody has been trying to avoid (the dreaded R word) is not just looking likely but an almost certainty.

and still people demanding seniority.:ugh:

BA are taking a huge hit by buying BMI and supporting the ongoing losses.
BA pilots have taken a hit in productivity and other areas (not entirely altruistically) to support the buying of BMI.

What have BMI pilot's given up?

and still people are demanding seniority.:ugh:

If you join you will likely have the opportunity to fly great aircraft to great places or you can stay put and maintain your current seniority. Doesn't seem a bad deal to me.

But stamping your feet and threatening to leave a union which has membership in the 90%'s in an airline which you're about to join and somehow suggesting it could lead to the downfall of Balpa smacks of 'toys out the pram' and cutting your nose off to spite your face!!

[BUGS/BEARINGS/BOXES]

Blimey, looks like I just woke up 20 years ago in 1992! Same story today it seems, as was the case with the 'lucky' DAN-AIR few, who happened to be on the right fleet at the right time. Many ex-DAN crew left BALPA and found alternative representation. much to the dislike of the BA hierarchy at the time. History it seems, does have a habit of repeating itself.

[Super Stall]

Actually upandoffmyside, having re-read your post I cant decide whether you are a genuinely interested BMI pilot or one of the disaffected Virgin guys who hasn't yet got around to reading the independent reports that drew a line under that very unsavoury episode instigated by a number of the Virgin CC.

I hope you are the former and you weren't just trolling. There are peoples jobs on the line.:*:*:*

[Max Angle]

and still people are demanding seniorityActually in the last 3-4 airline take overs or mergers it is BALPA HQ and their lawyers that have pretty much demanded that whatever process was used peoples seniority was largely preserved. The reason given was that to do otherwise would likely lead to a legal challenge to the whole basis of the seniority system, something that BALPA did not want to contemplate.

Now the airline involved is BA the tune seems rather different. Are we surprised?

[Super Stall]

...and name one of those mergers (by the way this is integration) where the buying party gave the decision on whether to merge to the pilots by way of a vote. The outcome of which was binding and the terms (no BA pilot disadvantaged) stated by the buying company (note the company NOT balpa).

Nope, didn't think so.

[4468]

upandoffmyside:
While there are a lot of "ifs" still, it seems from the current crew room murmurs that if this process carries on in the same direction then there could well be a few hundred bmi mainline members leaving Balpa to find alternative representation.


To reduce this to your level of debate...

If the BACC are obliged to accept a solution with which they are less than satisfied, a few THOUSAND BA members could leave BALPA and form THEIR OWN union! Taking 50% of BALPA's entire subscriptions with them.

So can I suggest we 'park' your rather naive line, and discuss the factual basis of the situation facing these two pilot groups????

PS: Yes I accept you're just a troll!

[Count von Altibar]

If the BAcc forge ahead with their current plans the whole thing will almost certainly lead to a court case challenging the very basis of seniority. The likelihood of seniority standing up to scrutiny with current UK/EU labour laws apparently tends toward zero according to recently sanctioned legal opinion. The lawyers also expressed surprise that nobody had done so to date. We can see where all this is going and it won't be good for any pilot community who's lifestyle depends heavily on the current system. The more the BA pilots try to create a leper colony for bmi pilots post integration, the more they're going to secure the end of what they currently enjoy in terms of control of lifestyle and excellent remuneration. It won't happen straight away obviously, but it won't be far off. All of the above plays into the hands of IAG management. We're on the run as a group of employees, it's better to work together than divide ourselves and all share in the obvious plans for expansion that will arise. No discriminatory seniority lists within seniority lists.

All this could be immaterial come 30th March of course!

[Super Stall]

Count with all due respect, do you think BA/Balpa get this far into the process without having gone through every detail/permutation with the lawyers.

There will be no court case I assure you.

May I suggest you look at the Balpa general members forum to see where we are really at as opposed to where you would like to be at.:rolleyes:

[Count von Altibar]

From what I've heard the BAcc have consulted the BALPA lawyers quite some time ago and chosen to ignore their advice reference the MSL. If the integration (which doesn't equate to shoving all the bmi pilots to the bottom of the list, that is clearly NOT integration. Any decent dictionary will clarify this) is unfair and doesn't respect the bmi pilots continuity of employment, there will be a legal challenge, the plans are already in place from my understanding. We'll see what unfolds in the upcoming talks which could all be irrelevant come the 30th...

[Super Stall]

My final comment on the subject.

During the Cityflyer merger there were 'plans in place' for a legal challenge. There were legal slush funds. Legal representation was sought.
The fact of the matter is the lawyers will tell you whatever you want to hear, it makes no difference to them whether you win or lose. They will still take your money.

In the end it was decided you've got to be in it to win it, and the Cityflyer pilots are now firmly established in the BA community.

But if you want to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory then be my guest...

Whatever the outcome I honestly wish the BMI guys and girls all the best in what may be uncertain times.

[Max Angle]

If the BAcc forge ahead with their current plans the whole thing will almost certainly lead to a court case challenging the very basis of seniority. Agreed, plans are already being laid. If the rumours of what is being planned by the BACC are true then a court case against BA is pretty much inevitable. Of course it will only come to court if BA bother to contest it and why would they? I am pretty sure that most senior BA managers won't be shedding too many tears if seniority were ruled illegal.

[skip.rat]

Super Stall

"Final comment", etc. acknowledged.

Notwithstanding that this all becomes irrelevant if the EU blocks the deal;

In the end it was decided you've got to be in it to win it, and the Cityflyer pilots are now firmly established in the BA community.

- Couldn't agree more.

I would have thought that when most CityFlyer pilots were tagged onto the bottom they still enjoyed a pay rise. Let's leave aside the absence of a whole bunch of LHR slots being brought in. I could be wrong, but it appears that the choice being offered is to be ring fenced, salary frozen (for most for between 10-20 years) & with very little opportunity of enjoying any of the benefits of being "fully" intergrated, or go to the bottom of the list & work up;- the isssue is that for many a large (circa £20-30K) pay cut being the price for that privilege. Given that choice I don't think many could justify that sacrifice to themselves, let alone their families.
I don't think many would argue that the 'ring fenced' option remotely resembles being (as you described) "in it".

(once again, this could all become irrelevant.)

I would be genuinely interested in your choice & the reasons for it given the above.

[no sponsor]

All BMI pilots should log into the BALPA forums and have a look at the posting from the chairman of the BACC.

The general concern at the moment, rather than bickering about the MSL, is the real threat of redundancy for some BMI pilots due to the reduced slots BA is able to take in the merger.

[Juan Tugoh]

It may be that the legal challenge will be more about the legality of LIFO as a basis for redundancy than one about seniority.

[Young Paul]

... seems a bit silly to require loss of slots, since BA will still have fewer than (say) AF at CDG, DLH at FRA, KLM at AMS, Iberia at MAD .... (I am saying this as an independent - these days, this is the competition, not Virgin who are simply too small to make any difference).

... and it seems a bit shortsighted to make people redundant, since new slots are really wanted for longhaul development, which will require far more pilots per slot than shorthaul.

... and it sounds bloomin' absurd to imply that BA is even thinking of acquiring bmi as an act of charity to the employees!! When they are even prepared to treat their own employees as badly as they treat the cabin crew on the new contract, are they really likely to care two hoots for those in another airline??

[flying macaco]

May I interject on a slight tangent. I appreciate that seniority is a concern for you BMI mainline guys. But some of you need to find an ounce of tact and pinch of perspective when others within your group are faced with pretty much certain redundancy come April even if the deal does go through March 30th. I'd take the ba job bottom of the list anytime over my current situation. The number of times I've been next to a bunch of mainline guys loudly discussing their "woes" of seniority. Seriously, take your heads out your backsides and see what other people (your colleagues) are facing you tactless, short sighted eeeeediots.

[tp320777]

I like most that I have come across in my short time in BA want to welcome the bmi pilot group with open arms! We are all colleagues at the end of the day and I know most of my friends in bmi see the 'Big Picture' and are just happy to have a job. I DON'T take the view that BA are doing bmi pilots 'a favour' by buying the company, IAG would not be doing so if bmi didn't bring real opportunities for BA to grow etc. I want to add my support for the bmi pilot group in these uncertain times and would hate to see any of them loose jobs.

However when it comes to seniority I made a choice to come to BA for more reasons than just the pay packet or to stay in the UK. I know several colleagues in bmi who have been to the BA selection and haven't been successful. Now I'm not suggesting that they are any better or worse than I am but why when I made a commitment to leave my seniority in my previous company should everyone from bmi jump ahead of me... Ultimately bmi is a 320 Short/Medium operator (with a couple of 330's knocking about Saudi), no jumbo's, no 777/787 or 380's, no bid line etc. So why are bmi pilots entitled to this when you don't have it in the first place. I should have this first as I was here first.

TUPE (quite rightly) protects your pay, position and T&C's you currently enjoy. This means the bmi Pilots are NOT disadvantaged by coming across to BA which I whole heartily agree with. But if the bmi Pilots go ahead of me I AM disadvantaged in the short/medium term, I find myself with 300 more or so above me blocking my chance to grow in my career that I chose and got selected to do. As full BA employees in the medium/long term you will get to enjoy all that BA has to offer but don't disadvantage guys and girls like myself in the process. That is only fair.

This post is not designed to upset or annoy anybody but purely to voice my position. Please don't bite my head off, I'm sure many from bmi will read my post and disagree but you have to look at this from all angles and see everyone's position. I really hope this gets sorted quickly and amicably, I want us all to be united as one and not spilt. I echo again whats been said on here already that the bmi Pilots should visit the BALPA forums, I think you'll be pleasantly surprised by how much support you have from the BA community. I wish you all the best for the future, from one colleague to another.

[xwindflirt]

In the event that this whole thing clears the regulator, IAG has agreed to purchase bmi by means of a share sale. At this point an agreement has been reached between BA and her pilots to integrate rather than face the prospect of ba light. In order for this to be achieved BA and bmi need to be merged together. After which the law kicks in in regards to the merging/integration of workforces covered mostly by tupe and various other relevant employment law statutes and case law precident. A lot of the options being offered up would be seen as being highly prejudicial towards the bmi workforce. This will lead to legal challenges as there is "nothing to lose" by not doing it. Tupe is a minimum that can be achieved any other variation must be done with mutual consent between employer and employee/elected representative. Some of the proposed integration scenarios as set out on the rumour mill and being aggressively pushed forward are not necasarrily compatable with tupe protections and current governing law.

[skip.rat]

Tp320777
I know of no Bmi pilot who wants to disadvantage any BA pilot; they would just like the opportunity to share in the expansion should it happen. If the TUPE option is taken they would be ring fenced for the rest of their careers & unable to do so; if not the financial penalty for many would be untenable.
Head firmly out of my arse, I am merely commenting on the particular aspect of this topic under discussion at the moment. I hope that does not offend any colleagues from bmir.

[Jockster]

BMI pilots will join at the bottom of the BA seniority list in the order of their BMI date of joining. BMI Captains and FOs will continue to be A320 Captains and FOs in BA....BUT....when a 'former' BMI Captain vacates his / her A320 command (in BA) then a former BMI FO will have first call on that command in BMI FO seniority order provided that the FO has remained on the A320 fleet, i.e. not changed fleets. It's the only way to ensure TUPE is preserved for BMI crews AND no BA pilot is disadvantaged which is what was assured prior to the recent vote.

[No walkover]

Let’s get things straight here, tidy some facts up here. I don't know whether some of the BA folk here are trolling or really that naive? Most of the ones that have spoken to seem a really nice bunch but there are a few that seem to be stuck on the "No BA pilot will be disadvantaged" mantra.

First and foremost, this whole situation has become shambolic, period! Communication is fast becoming a safety risk. I fly with some people that are clearly stressed by the situation, such that I wouldn't be surprised that it is affecting their sleep, lives, families and potentially their thought processing. The respective Companies should be pushing out memos, stating the same facts at the same time. Rumour, conjecture and gossip is rife at this time. This is not helped by the fact that BA cannot talk to BMI CC, yet BACC can talk to their employer, meanwhile BACC are pushing for a conclusion with BMI CC when BMI CC are reliant on BACC to pass on the necessary facts. Talk about pi$$ ups in breweries.

Now I cannot go any further without wishing ALL Baby and Regional pilots and staff the best for the future. I truly hope that resolution can be found that sees all gainfully employed in a company that they are happy with whether that be at BA, Granite etc. There is never a good time to be unemployed (I am aware of that personally). So for those that have overheard conversations by Mainline guys in the LHR CRC (or elsewhere for that matter), I apologise on their behalf. There would definitely be no intent to cause offence, just plain old insensitivity and high blood pressures. However, what follows is now going to be just one Mainline pilots impression of things from their shoes regarding the BA integration, so I do appreciate that it may sound like someone fighting their corner because unfortunately it needs to be said.

Let me start by saying that I am keen to join BA. I have no chips on my shoulders as to wanting to work for the best or especially fly heavy metal (although this will be revisited later). I would consider myself an average pilot who has invested a a considerable number of years in to my career and witnessed first hand the degradation of Ts & Cs over the years.

I do not know who first came up with the "No BA pilot will be disadvantaged" BUT it makes my blood boil when I hear this. It's such a throw away one liner and yet it has been elevated to as I put earlier Mantra status. We do not know the true context it was meant in or whether the individual that said it actually has the full authority to say it. It is divisive and demeaning to anyone else who is not a BA pilot. What should have been said was "I would expect that ALL BA pilots will benefit in one way or another during their careers from this acquisition." With the original statement there is no timeline therefore any individual can say that they are being "disadvantaged" over the most trivial of issues and completely out of context of the original statement. Where did the original spokes person expect the line to be drawn? From where I'm sat and I am trying to be unbiased, the only tenuous link for a BA pilot being potentially disadvantaged would come from someone who has left BMI to join BA, thereby surrendering their seniority to join the bottom of BAs. This I understand but can honestly say that it is a case of making your bed and lying in it. IF BMI (mainline et al?) were to merge maintaining their DOJ then I would say that this is a gamble that Mainline pilots took. Many have considered leaving BMI to BA, many have availed that opportunity and some have decided to remain. Today if any former BMI pilot at BA had their choice again, would they gamble everything and stick it out at Mainline with the potential risk of redundancy in order to possibly join BA MSL slightly higher up the list - I didn't think so. So, you make your bed and you lie in it, knowing you made the best decision you could have at that particular moment in time. I mean no ill to those that have, just that you can't cry after spilling a few drops of milk, especially as you would have enjoyed all the benefits that we are informed BA offers over the Midland coal-pit package.

WRT those that quote CityFlyer, Danair and any other takeover performed prior to the mid-2000's, they are all antiquated. They can't even be used for statitical purposes. These historic mergers were not enshrined by the many new laws that have recently been legislated, many coming from our favourite friends in Europe under European Courts of Justice that have been slowly been absorbed into UK Law. BMI mainline went through a redundancy process that a few years ago and I believe for the first time in Mainline's history the decision could not be based on seniority as LIFO, despite what our contracts said. Other criteria had to be imposed. Despite the Union stressing that LIFO would be simpler and received by probably all the pilots the HR department insisted that it could not be used, lest they be taken to a tribunal for "unfair dismissal". This is the real world as of today. If the BACC and/or BA say that BMI pilots must go to the bottom of the MSL, they are essentially signing the death warrant of seniority with the UK airline industry as we know it. From what I can tell, at all levels in the BMI camp, there are many that believe this to be the only way forward. If not, then they are prepared for Armageddon that will probably ensue. When BMI integrated BMed, we were specifically and unequivocally told that it MUST be done by DOJ by BALPA HQ or else there could be a legal challenge to the seniority system. This was done and despite a number of Senior F/Os moving down the combined seniority list, even I believe they would say that they were not "disadvantaged".

In terms of the BA pilots, what are the areas of concern regarding a combined MSL? Presumably, as has been mentioned in the past on various forums, we have the subjects of lifestyle, command/type and salary as the normal commercial pilot objectives from their jobs.

We all know that BA want BMI purely for their slots. Nothing more, nothing less. In order to protect the slots they will need immediately aircraft, crews and some ancillary staff. We equally all are aware that BA need to use these slots for long haul operations where they are currently being utilised for predominantly short haul schedules, together with a number of medium haul and long haul routes. BMI are running incredibly lean at the moment, regularly I am called to ask to sell days off as there aren't enough pilots to cover the schedule. If BMIs slots (even given the fact that 14 may be negotiated out of the deal) were to become BA's, within a short time there would be a requirement for the recruitment of further crews in order to accommodate the increased crewing requirement for the long haul routes.

Returning to the previous point, lifestyle should not change other than to improve within BA as more routes become available. Salary would not be influenced other than the improvements or concessions that BALPA make along the way. Type/Command, this area should open up as more long haul becomes available requiring a higher crewing ratio per long haul airframe than the existing BMI or BA short haul fleet. Personally, I would like to fly to further afield, I joined a company that had aspirations of long haul and I wish to maintain that lifestyle. With the former BMed routes and a roster preference for longer trips, I would prefer not to be flying 319's to day stop on the aircraft at MAN and return back to LHR, which I get every-so-often. Size doesn't make a difference to me but flying 6+ hours with a minimum of 2 nights in a hotel does. This therefore would mean a long haul bid would be my preferred option. I have been flying Airbuses now for more years than I have any other type. I do not think that it is appropriate to be type frozen in BA, as I am not type frozen in BMI. I appreciate that if I chose to resign from a company and start afresh in a new company that had no former simulator or training notes about me, I would consider this reasonable but BA MAY be inheriting this if the integration is approved. I should hasten to add that speaking to my colleagues and peers in the crew room, I am in a significant minority on this point. There is a significant number that can't think of anything worse than embarking on a new type rating, in fact the mere prospect of changing car parks is a significant cause for them to question whether now would be a good time to exit UK flying. The attraction of EK DEC and/or contracting is quite tempting to some.

If you take into account some of what has been said above you should soon see that there is great potential for significant upset by forcing the bottom of MSL at all costs attitude. I have seen the posting by the BACC on the General forum and there is some that makes sense but there is a lot that I find both offensive and scare-mongering.

I agree that BA have the larger number of members within BALPA than BMI. That does not mean that they can bully through everything they like. Trying to score pot shots at the BMI CC is childish and appears to ridicule the BMI CC. Whose team to BACC are still part of BALPA the last time I checked, BALPA stood for "to use all available resources to protect and enhance the terms and conditions of our members". I personally think that until we see a MSL with both companies merged on DOJ, together with some forecasts for airframes/commands/fleets etc, then this back biting will continue with little sign of let-up. Viewing a combined DOJ would at least let the individuals see that there is very little to be disadvantaged by a merged MSL and everything to be gained.

Of course, I could be collecting DHSS payments in the near future but I am personally confident that the EU will see that there is no great cause for concern on the monopolised routes, as Lufthansa have now applied the necessary pressure to reinforce the fact that BMI may not be in competition with BA on these routes for long anyway. i.e. fait accompli, in that BA will be the sole provider on the route no matter what EU's decision. I can't think of another carrier that would want to carry the losses of the LHR domestics. Nor does another operator have the national permissions to operate the Cairo route if BMI were to step off pre-agreed.

I think that the opening poster "upandoffmyside" was not necessarily trolling but actually putting forward a valid question. I'm sure many would question their BALPA membership based on the recent BALPA HQ statements regarding integration within BMI of BMED and the now current dictate of BACC regarding how they see the land lies. My experience of BALPA has been actually very good at CC level within BMI. However, I think that BALPA HQ are the weak link and should be working night and day to arbitrate this fairly and not down to membership numbers. As the opening poster seems to be alluding, the ramifications of not being seen to be fair, has far reaching consequences within other airlines.

In summary, I really think that all parties should start with a clean sheet of paper and most definitely scrub the idea of "no BA pilot will be disadvantaged" from the history books. Let's start with how BA and BMI pilots will be "advantaged" because I really fail to see how (if integration goes ahead) such a small number of BMI pilots (many on part-time and those that don't go to pastures new), will cause such a catastrophic collapse of the existing pilots welfare and benefits!

[NigelOnDraft]

BMI pilots will join at the bottom of the BA seniority list in the order of their BMI date of joining. BMI Captains and FOs will continue to be A320 Captains and FOs in BA....If your statement is based on knowledge / insight, rather than guesswork ;) where will bmi Capts stand in the monthly bidding process?

[Shaman]

where will bmi Capts stand in the monthly bidding process?

a lot better off than they are now!:ok:

[Jockster]

BMI captains and FOs will be at the bottom of their respective fleet lists. They can submit a bid (IB1) like everyone else. They may get a trip line (a line of work spread out over the month) or they may get a blind line (more likely) until they gain more seniority within the company.

A blind is a line of work constructed by ops once the two bidding processes are complete. Blind line holders can submit a preference prior to line construction, e.g. late day-trips or 4 day tours preferred or anything you like. Ops will try to accommodate preferences so long as the work is covered. About 3 weeks prior to the start of the month your roster is published. This is exactly what BMI crews get now so no loss of TUPE,

Its actually better than the current BMI situation in that you can swap trips with the overtime list or other crew. You can add trips as overtime. You can discard trips (with loss of credit / cash) using a system called eMaestro. Again BMI crews are not any worse off than their current situation and NO BA pilot is disadvantaged by a BMI pilot bidding ahead of them......WINNER, WINNER, CHICKEN DINNER.

[one day soon]

Whether it is BA or BMI flightdeck, lets hope the views of the few don't spoil it for the benefits of the many!
:ok:

[Fir Tree]

When BMED was purchased by bmi why were the BMED pilots merged into the bmi seniority list based on their BMED D.O.J.?

Presumably BALPA were party to this?

[1033]

Fir Tree

I think that was answered in No Pushovers lengthy but informative post earlier, to quote:

When BMI integrated BMed, we were specifically and unequivocally told that it MUST be done by DOJ by BALPA HQ or else there could be a legal challenge to the seniority system. This was done and despite a number of Senior F/Os moving down the combined seniority list, even I believe they would say that they were not "disadvantaged".

So to me it would appear that Bath Road BALPA were the ones who were behind this motion. Perhaps some more posters can confirm/deny?

[Nevermind]

As a BA pilot myself, I'd say that Jockster's post about seniority within fleets has no actual basis in fact.
We are still at the stage where the BACC and BMI CC are discussing various areas and no agreement has been reached as yet.
Speculation - yes, plenty, but no facts.

I'd gladly give you my speculative opinion but it would add nothing to the debate.

Yes, there will be time and opportunity to debate these things, but consider

(a) There is no guarantee that it will go through given the European Commission's potential slot demands

(b) And if the slots demanded are accepted, IAG may end up having an excess of pilots and aeroplanes

(c) As the chairman of the BACC said elsewhere, what about the careers and BMI Baby & Regional pilots?

I would have hoped that was the picture we currently need to focus on.

[73addict]

Just to flip your comment to add a pinch of fairness.

You repeatedly comment on "you make your bed and you lie in it". Here is one line for you you joined BMI NOT BA you made your bed now lie in it!!!!! :}


On a serious note I hope all of this can be resolved, I will certainly not be confrontational or off hand with any BMI pilot that joins our ranks.

Just remember the rumour network is rife in this industry and amazingly only ever leads to let down, depression and a reduced positive outlook. Yes keep your ears open but take nothing as gospel until you see it in black and white with a section for your signature.

I pay no attention to rumour anymore as I swore never to again after the demise of a previous company. It only served to take the fun out of a job I love for the few months leading up to the end and an end I could not have changed anyway. I am sure we, for the most part, still love the job so don't let hearsay and conjecture ruin your life and suck the life out of you.

Listen by all means and even prepare yourself if needs be but don't let it take over your life. Life's too short as it is to be grumpy all the time.:ok:

[Jockster]

Hello Nevermind. Please "speculate" on any other scenario / outcome where a BA pilot would not disadvantaged - anything at all? Any scenario which disadvantages a single current BA pilot would have to be rejected by BALPA because the whole acceptance of the BMI integration by the BA pilot workforce is based upon this.

[Nevermind]

Jockster

I think your interpretation of "disadvantaged" will be different to every other pilot in BA.
The BACC will never be able to ensure that no one in BA is disadvantaged.
They will reach the best compromise they can that will meet with the satisfaction of the majority of us that voted for integration.

Speculation IMVHO adds nothing to the debate at this moment in time.
Can I assume you are confirming that your posting regarding seniority is just that?

I can only add that during my career in BA, those airlines that have come into the fold have brought their slots and aircraft.
The pilots initially stayed on the fleets they were on for a few years - with grandfather rights - and were given a seniority number based on DOJ of BA.
These are simply facts as best I know them.

[Tay Cough]

When BMED was purchased by bmi why were the BMED pilots merged into the bmi seniority list based on their BMED D.O.J.?


Because it was a merger of approximate equals. It doesn't matter how much anyone wants to portray things otherwise, this is a takeover of a failing company and thanks to an affirmative vote by current BA pilots agreeing to £10m of savings, BMI is being gifted by IAG to BA.

All future recruitment will be to BA mainline on BA terms and conditions which protects the future of BA mainline pilots. BMI pilots will hopefully become some of those very pilots in the near future, subject to the EU removing its finger from its elbow. However, BMI pilots will effectively be given a choice of remaining as a separate entity on their current T&Cs versus the mainline pilots, in which case as a group, they will wither as they progressively retire, with the FOs only having the option of moving to those former BMI command positions and the prospect of flying with new FOs recruited onto mainline. Alternatively, they will join the mainline seniority list more than likely at the bottom with BA T&Cs and appropriate protections, and have the same rights of movement as existing BA pilots.

Interestingly, wherever they join on the list, unless they choose to draw straws they will join in BMI seniority order, which unfortunately for them recognises the principle of seniority and its importance within a company. Therefore, any challenge to the BA seniority list won't hold much water in court I would have thought. :confused:

As one of the earlier posters said and especially now that the EU have started interfering and compulsory redundancies may be on the table, all BMI pilots must please read the post by the chairman of the BACC on the BALPA forum.

BA pilots want you all on board. None of us want to see any of you with a P45.

[4468]

Any scenario which disadvantages a single current BA pilot would have to be rejected by BALPA because the whole acceptance of the BMI integration by the BA pilot workforce is based upon this.

But of course this is not correct is it?

For example BMI pilots will have staff travel based on their DOJ BMI. Also should redundancies be required it will be BA pilots in the frame, and not BMI pilots.

The mantra is meaningless, and unenforceable?

[Count von Altibar]

Haven't got a lot of time to read the preceding posts but I get the feeling that the BAcc is trying to blackmail the BMIcc into accepting their terms of integration pre the sale going through thereby negating need for direct BMIcc negotiations with BA management. The question has to be asked as to why? Are the BAcc trustworthy and out for the interests of the BMI pilots to such an extent that securing a deal now is so imperative? I think not...

I'd rather take my chances and let the deal go through first (hopefully!) and then see what's on the table that can be hammered out within the confines of UK/EU employment law etc. There's a detectable air of desperation from the BAcc to secure a deal asap in this game of seniority poker. I smell a rat...

PS The last comment is not a reference to skip.rat above!

[Flaperon75]

For example BMI pilots will have staff travel based on their DOJ BMI. Also should redundancies be required it will be BA pilots in the frame, and not BMI pilots.

Why would redundancies come from BA? If the deal with the EU regulators includes a reduction of slots, one would assume that only the corresponding number of pilots would come over from BMI (obviously everyone is hoping it won't come to this). Surely you are not suggesting that BA pilots currently towards the bottom of the MSL would be made redundant to allow all of the BMI pilots to come over because their DOJ is earlier? I can't see that one getting very far......

[4468]

Surely you are not suggesting that BA pilots currently towards the bottom of the MSL would be made redundant to allow all of the BMI pilots to come over because their DOJ is earlier?Google is your friend:
Continuous service means working for the same employer without interruption.
Changes of employer normally breaks continuity, which means that employees must start all over again to qualify for rights

However, there are exceptions.

A trade, business or undertaking or part of an undertaking is transferred to another employer

[binsleepen]

As I understand it IAG are buying BMI before it is merged with BA. Between the purchase date and the merger date BMI would continue to be a separate company within the IAG group.

Should the number of slots that IAG aquire with the aquisition of BMI be less than anticipated, due to EU pronouncements, then any reduction in personel and aircraft required to service those reduced slots could be made before the merger with BA i.e. all reductions could be made from within the BMI workforce without any reference to BA.

[overstress]

BA pilots have voted to accept £10m worth of cuts to their T's & C's so that BMI pilots can be integrated.

Had BA pilots said no then BMI pilots would be staring Vueling T's & C's in the face. All legal.

As it stands now, thanks to the EU some BMI pilots face redundancy. Yet some are quibbling over seniority and freezes?

[Count von Altibar]

BA pilots have accepted £10m worth of cuts to allow integration. Did they do this to save the BMI pilots out of charity, I don't think so.

They did this to prevent an attack on their T&Cs in the form of all future expansion through a standalone within the IAG group that would be formerly known as BMI and become to be known as BA Express perhaps.

I believe the BAcc are nervous as to what actually happens post-purchase, when the BMIcc negotiate directly with the BA management. Only then will a truer picture emerge of the intentions of the IAG group as to what happens. The BA pilots may have voted to accept concessions as the lessor of two evils. That doesn't preclude some surprise from WW and the boys at IAG. It's a potentially messy situation in my opinion, and not something any of us can truly predict. Bring on the 30th...

[Nevermind]

I would suggest that all BMI pilots consult with their CC to ascertain exactly what is meant by "negotiate" with BA. I do this not to cause trouble but to simply ask the people who represent you to be honest about what you can expect when BA "consults" with you - a very different word.

Aside from my earlier (and more relevant) point about the difficulties associated with the deal actually going through, BMI pilots need to be fully aware of what the takeover means for them.

Otherwise there may be much resentment and anger ahead. Simply because the BACC is doing it's job - representing the interests of it members.

In an excellent fashion over these last difficult few years I might add.

I hope the BMI CC have been as informative in their comms as the BACC have. They had be, to get us to vote in favour.

Google can provide you with plenty of info that you WANT to read, but I would suggest it it is the job of your reps to tell you what TUPE actually means. Or the Veuling type alternative mentioned earlier.

Again, I emphasise that I am not trying to wind anyone up. Just ask everyone to be fully informed by their Reps, so that unrealistic expectations do not lead to anger and resentment - and yes,that applies to both sets of crew.

[pint'alfempty]

I suggest BA take on the baby guys instead; much more likeable bunch of chaps/gals.
Quite unbelievable the amount of bitching and moaning from the mainline fraternity when they should be grateful for the opportunity of retaining their jobs. Best of luck BA, you're welcome to them.

[sudden twang]

BA pilots have a history of taking reductions in Ts and Cs to prevent redundancies.
It would be a hard sell by the BACC to BA pilots after what's been written here and elsewhere.
As for court cases including ones about seniority BA are pretty good at winning them or dragggging them out for years. Deep pockets will be needed.

[On the Straight and Level]

Here's another thought......

If the EU drag their feet any longer on this or require ridiculous concessions with regard to slot divestment. Could IAG simply say, ok rather than incorporate BMI into BA, we'll go with plan B and set BMI up as a BA Express, despite what the BA pilots voted on.

I know its certainly far from what BA pilots want but in terms of people's jobs and futures, it would probably mean that with the ensuing expansion within a BA Express, all BMI Group pilots could be employed rather than some/all facing possible redundancy?

I know many within the BMI Group (but mainly outside of Mainline) would rather be on Vuelling terms than unemployed.

As far as I see it, just because KW has given the BA pilots the option of a vote on the potential future, does not mean that U-turns can not be performed as the IAG management deem fit.

If this was to occur would there need to be any slot divestment whatsoever as the new Company and slots would be in IAGs portfolio and not BA's, therefore meeting the EUs monopoly concerns. After all, we don't count Iberia's slots within BA's do we.

As I say, another way of skinning this cat while it's still worth something!

[babybaby]

TUPE applies if BMI is to be TRANSFERRED into BA. TUPE does not apply if the 100% share ownership of BMI is taken up by IAG, and IAG leave BMI as a stand-alone, and do NOT TRANSFER BMI into another company.

The information we have is that IAG will take 100% share ownership of BMI and that BMI will at that point become ..... BMI. As the day before it when it was under Lufthansa ownership. As when it was owned by Bishop and was taken over by Lufthansa. There is no link with BA at all, apart from maybe the brand in due course, until BMI is TRANSFERRED into BA.

In the meantime BMI is a stand-alone company owned by IAG, with employees employed on BMI contracts. I'm puzzled as to how IAG can simply scrap a BMI contract and exchange it for a Vueling type one? What's to stop them then issuing BA pilots a Vueling type contract? Or Iberia pilots an Iberia Express type contract?

[Tay Cough]

I would suggest that all BMI pilots consult with their CC to ascertain exactly what is meant by "negotiate" with BA. I do this not to cause trouble but to simply ask the people who represent you to be honest about what you can expect when BA "consults" with you - a very different word.

For clarification, the legal requirement is for BA to "consult" not "negotiate". I'm not saying I necessarily agree with it but that's the legal position.

[Fuzzy112]

Why don't bmi pilots put together a business plan to propose that IAG set up BA Express at LHR. I am sure the T&Cs would be industry minimum but as the business expands the only way will be up. No BA pilot would then be disadvantaged as there would be no merger and no scope issues either. Simples

[Mabbs9]

IF the integration goes ahead and I hope it does, the timescale for BA to start using the former BMI slots for LH is going to be a a number of years rather than immediatley. This means the idea of the new larger BA being short of pilots (due to a LH slot requiring more crews per hull) immediately is incorrect.

I'm in BA, I have my fingers well crossed for a good outcome for all.

[lamina]

Nevermind wrote-

"Otherwise there may be much resentment and anger ahead. Simply because the BACC is doing it's job - representing the interests of it members. "

And why then the objection to the bmicc trying to represent its membership? Why the rush to get the bmicc to agree to terms before any contact with their potential employer?

[sudden twang]

Some facts draw your own conclusions...
The BACC know BA management well.
BA does not want strife with its current workforce.
BA wants the slots.
BA would if it could source pilots for those slots from the FPP
Reduced slots equals reduced number of pilots needed.
If BA allow a merge of seniority, it leaves them open for increased Ts and Cs above TUPE.
And finally,
The BA the BMICC will be consulting with are generally pilots of medium seniority about LH SFO on the MSL.

[Nevermind]

LAMINA

I am not objecting in any way.

I am simply suggesting that people be aware of the cards that the company councils have been dealt by this process. Be informed, not just demanding.

If people have unrealistic expectations of what can be achieved, then who do you think they are going to blame when it doesn't come to fruition?

The same colleagues they are going to be flying with for the rest of their careers.

I would hope that the "silent majority" in BMI and BA will come together amicably.

[lamina]

Nevermind

"be informed", and therein lies the problem from the bmi pilots perspective. There has been no communication from any parties to the bmi grunts, nothing, zip, etc etc. And for very good reason as the purchase is currently in limbo.

Whilst I understand the BA pilots perspective, I would appreciate the same sense of understanding from the BA community, not just thinly veiled threats from a vocal minority ( that also applies to the small minority of bmi hot heads!)

It's been a long six months and hopefully one way or another we will know more in the comming weeks.

[Nevermind]

LAMINA

I wholeheartedly agree about the vocal hotheads. On both sides.

They sort of attract each other, while others try to choose their words more carefully.

Personally I try to post while bearing in mind we could be flying together soon.

I know it's a distracting time for everyone, particularly in BMI.
But once the dust has settled, I would hope that we can work together without resentment, and the potential distraction that can bring.

[BusDriverLHR]

All this talk of the BACC trying to blackmail/trick the BMI-CC is a complete load of rubbish.

The BACC honestly believe that if agreement cannot be met between the two CCs then the BMI-CC will not fare well at all when they have their 'consultation' with BA management post merger.
There is certainly no attempt to trick BMI pilots into some sort of quick deal in order to benefit/protect BA pilots.

If you believe the BACC have it wrong, that's entirely your decision. But please make it an informed decision. Listen to everything both CCs have to say before dismissing it. I have frequently not liked reading the contents of the BACC's messages (due to the fact that they have altered my ideas/aspirations in line with reality) but I have yet to see them proven wrong. While they have certainly stated 'no BA pilot will be disadvantaged' (bar Staff Travel & LIFO), they still have a vested interest in ensuring the best possible deal for BMI pilots that doesn't disadvantage current BA pilots.

Good luck to all and fingers crossed redundancies (throughout the BMI group) can be kept to an absolute minimum.

[BusDriverLHR]

If the takeover of BMI by IAG fails due to too high EU anti trust requirements, will the agreed concessions of (mostly future) BA pilots still stand?

In the short term, no.

In the long term, BA will still need BA-SH to become profit making and the 24-point payscale will still be an issue. So there would most likely be another negotiation, the results of which would be anyones guess.

[Tay Cough]

If the EU drag their feet any longer on this or require ridiculous concessions with regard to slot divestment. Could IAG simply say, ok rather than incorporate BMI into BA, we'll go with plan B and set BMI up as a BA Express, despite what the BA pilots voted on.

I know its certainly far from what BA pilots want but in terms of people's jobs and futures, it would probably mean that with the ensuing expansion within a BA Express, all BMI Group pilots could be employed rather than some/all facing possible redundancy?

It's extremely unlikely. Given the BA pilots' vote and the way IR works between BA and the BACC, I would suggest that purely in a financial sense, it would cost IAG an awful lot more to renege on the deal than to continue with it. I dread to think what it would cost BALPA if this happened. Half their membership and probably two-thirds of their income would probably be a fair bet.

If it were to go ahead, "BA Express" would not be on anything vaguely resembling BMI terms. I have heard figures of 40% being bandied around as the levels of cuts compared to the current BMI position. This would eventually carry through to BA mainline and ultimately to every remaining airline in the UK as, like it or not, BA sets the national benchmark conditions to a certain degree.

From a personal point of view, I would rather leave the industry. :{

[LHRPony]

So let me get this straight. BA has to sub BMI £60 mil during the competitions process to keep it going (albeit secured on slots). At the moment BMI is mainly a shorthaul airline with only a preference system for bidding.
So under tupe BMI can’t be discriminated against, and rightly so.
Hypothetically you join at the bottom (in BMI seniority order) you have recognition for their length of service in BMi. Captains will keep command rights, BMI fo’s will get a proportion of BMi commands. You will be on blindlines, a preference system.
Your pay can only increase in this deal by coming onto the BA seniority list having BA T&C’s. You may even get bidding rights based on your BMi DoJ which is a massive increase in your lifestyle with triplines.
What am I missing here? I would love to fly Concorde and a Spitfire as much as some BMi people want longhaul commands and seniority, but because I want it doesn’t mean its going to happen.
About wanting to share on the expansion the slots will bring, you will benefit, more recruitment and that will push you up the list. But be under no illusion, you don’t own the slots, BMi do, soon BA will. BA will do with them what they want, BA pilots will fly them, which is only good for all BA pilots. The fact that they used to be BMi slots or who evers is irrelevant.
Under the above situation you have not been discriminated against, they have an improvement in their T&C’s and have a better rostering system with eMaestro.
Go and ask your colleagues from BMi baby and Regional and some people in the dole cue and see what they think, do you really think you have a bad deal?
For the record it is not a merger, BA is buying it from Lufty before they pull they plug. It is a take over. I know this wont be popular but some people (on both sides of the fence) seem to be living in their own little worlds banging tables with their fists shouting “I want I want I want” then putting their fingers in their ears and singing “la la la” when they hear something they don’t like.

[BASSAwitch]

Just heard from a very reliable source from within the Commission that stage 1 approval has NOT been granted and the purchase is off.

Lufty are saying officially to the EU that they will ground the airline end of March. IAG have ownership of 24 slots but don't have to fly them til the winter season.

You heard it here first folks.

[Count von Altibar]

For the record IAG applied to the EU regulators to 'merge' BA and BMI LHRPony so it is fairly certainly a merger. The BAcc wishful thinking that they can 'stitch-up' the pilots coming from BMI pre-merger will fall foul of their expectations once the deal is approved. Maybe the EU won't approve the merger and then your headache is over? However, post the merger being approved it's going to be a whole different gambit. All the fantasy outcomes of the BAcc will be considered and most probably swept aside by BA management who will be the deciders in all of this wrangling. They'll go with their legal advice and the most sensible business solution with regard to pilots. There's an urgency amongst the BAcc to clench a deal pre-merger that will arouse suspicions amongst any serious thinkers. Here's hoping on a positive result on Friday, it'll be for the good of IAG and all pilots who fly for them.

[BusDriverLHR]

For the record IAG applied to the EU regulators to 'merge' BA and BMI LHRPony so it is fairly certainly a merger.

BA is making decent profit and BMI is making (for it's size) phenomenal losses. Part of the proposal made to the IAG board by the BA board was that the purchase of BMI would be 100% funded by BA (and hence profits BA pilots helped make). This is a successful airline 'taking over' an unsuccessful airline that is for all intents and purposes, bankrupt. How this should affect the relative negotiating positions of the two pilot groups is perhaps up for debate but any notion that this is a 'merger' is ridiculous.

The BAcc wishful thinking that they can 'stitch-up' the pilots coming from BMI pre-merger will fall foul of their expectations once the deal is approved.

Again, the BACC has no hidden agenda and is not trying to stitch anyone up. I would strongly suggest you will fare out better by heeding their advice. However, that is a choice you will have to make. If you/BMI-CC choose not to listen to the BACC and things do not work out as you had wished, I hope you remember the advice that was offered and ignored.

[Callsign Kilo]

Out of interest, why was the decision over the purchase of bmi extended from the 16th March to this Friday? Was this surrounding the EU's requirement for IAG to surrender a greater share of the proceeds ie the slots. I understand IAG have offered an additional 14, which the EU suggest is not likely to be enough. Any more concessions and IAG state that there is little economic viability left in the purchase due to the losses that bmi currently operate at. Does anybody else think that if there can't be some sort of agreement here then IAG will back away and Lufthansa will wash their hands off the whole affair? It's unlikely to come to that, right?

[MrBenip]

Quote "It's unlikely to come to that, right?" - Wrong!! The EC's decison on other airlines proposed mergers/take-overs in the past is not a pretty one and Lufty's profits are hurting.

Perhaps IAG could revert to the stand alone option without EC interference but otherwise curtians I think.

[BusDriverLHR]

Does anybody else think that if there can't be some sort of agreement here then IAG will back away and Lufthansa will wash their hands off the whole affair? It's unlikely to come to that, right?

Like MrBenip says, some knowledgeable people seem to think this is a distinct possibility.

Perhaps IAG could revert to the stand alone option without EC interference but otherwise curtians I think.

Perhaps, but at a guess I'd imagine the EU have a limit on how many slots IAG can have - so it would be irrelevant whether BMI was left stand-alone or integrated. Just a guess though.

[BitMoreRightRudder]

[QUOTE]The BAcc wishful thinking that they can 'stitch-up' the pilots coming from BMI pre-merger will fall foul of their expectations once the deal is approved. /QUOTE]

Stitch-up? Really? If you read the balpa general forum the BAcc chairman has made it clear their single motivation is to find a solution that is as fair as possible for every pilot involved and see's no one group disadvantaged. I admit this will be nigh-on impossible for such a large group of pilots each with differing aspirations and their own idea of "fairness", but the belief displayed by some Bmi folk that a fair solution is they stroll into BA with their Bmi d.o.j dictating everything, while riding rough-shod over many hundreds of other pilots is not helping the situation. This is where the BAcc are keen to align misconception with the reality of TUPE. A fair solution lies in-between full d.o.j and the bottom of the BA msl.

The urgency being displayed that you seem to find "suspicious" is down to the belief that any further delay/complication will give rise to the very real prospect of job losses. My sympathy lies with the Bmir and Baby pilots and crew who must be really enjoying watching some of their mainline colleagues, heads firmly entrenched in sand, argue about which cakes from the BA table they feel their seniority entitles them to.

[MrBenip]

Surely if stand alone, IAG would own BMI just as Lufthansa did and there should be no problem as it would just be an ownership change, but hopefully run in a different way! After all this did appear to be the option for IAG until WW persuaded IAG that BA/BMI integration would be a better way of doing things - as I understand it anyway.

The trouble is it would seem Lufthansa is losing whatever patience it had with BMI and would now choose the speediest option to cut the losses if no approval.

I hope Wolfgang has got a letter stating Lufthansa's intentions prepared for next Monday morning at the latest if this does not get past the EC, as rumours will be rife and nerves very frayed I'm sure.

[MrBenip]

BitMoreRightRudder - The tone of your post is most unsavoury indeed. What are you worried about? If you were in the BMI camp would you not want a decent deal for your experience in aviation. We are not looking to ride "roughshod" over any BA pilot and I don't see DOJ doing that - please explain your fears in a balanced informative fashion instead of the mud slinging.

You guys were presented with 2 evils to vote on by your company, you voted for integration so bring it on! You could have voted the other way for a stand alone but you didn't. Frankly I find it absurd that pilots of another company are looking to control our destiny. I am sure in the end it will be your management that will decide and that decision I WILL respect.

P.S. I do however think it's fair to have a lengthy fleet bid freeze so as not to "disadvantage any BA F/O". especially if long haul is their aspiration.

[look you]

Perhaps if the BACC (and BALPA) spent less time talking about degrees of disadvantage and more time explaining the advantages of a merger and how they could shared equitably among the combined pilot group, the debate would be a little more constructive.

Who thinks 98.5% to 1.5% is a fair way to share the spoils?

[MrBenip]

look you; Good post

[SinBin]

I'm sorry to say it but it looks more and more doubtful anyone from bmi will be sharing any spoils. As an ex bmi bod myself now on the other bus, so to speak, it saddens me that this could happen as i have fond memories of flying with my former colleagues there. However, arguing about what bidlines bmi guys will get should be the least of their worries. Food on the table would be my biggest concern.:uhoh:

Even at my place on the BA juniority list, I bid for what I want and have only had one blindline since joining. Reserve months are another thing. But being junior on the Airbus ain't so bad! Good luck y'all!

[BusDriverLHR]

I'm sorry, but BMI is an A320 operation with a tiny A330 section. It's also a financial disaster. If ex-BMI pilots get to maintain their current pay structure, keep their commands and have 'dead man's shoes' access to commands previously held by BMI pilots, then your T&Cs haven't worsened. The loss of the minimal amount of A330 flying can be offset by the fact that your new company has a future. Hopefully you will also have a decent bidding system, roster stability and a huge staff travel network.

I've heard BMI pilots argue 'our slots will be used for longhaul so we should get to fly longhaul'.
The slots do not belong to BMI pilots. BA are buying those slots, BMI is just part of the deal. The slots are being bought with profits which BA pilots (through increased productivity and paycuts) helped make. If you want to allocate ownership of the slots to a pilot group, then they will belong to BA pilots.

The notion that an engagement freeze negates the negative affect of a DOJ merger on BA pilots is also unfounded. From the point the freeze ends, you would have access to fleets/seats/lines of work ahead of pilots who have already served many years in BA. I don't think you'll find many non-BMI pilots who feel this would be reasonable.

If ex-BMI pilots want to enjoy the vast longhaul network the BA has to offer, they'll have to join the back of the queue like everyone else.

I appreciate that this is very blunt and I'm sure some will 'find the tone unsavoury' but there's no point in sugar coating it. I wish all BMI pilots the very best, but to expect your service in a borderline-bankrupt shorthaul airline to allow you leapfrog pilots in the company that is buying you is entirely unreasonable.

[Callsign Kilo]

I wish all BMI pilots the very best, but to expect your service in a borderline-bankrupt shorthaul airline to allow you leapfrog pilots in the company that is buying you is entirely unreasonable.

And in conclusion, IAG/BA hasn't bought anything yet. Some on here believe that if the EU procrastinate any further, IAG will say 'sod it' and Lufty will say 'no more.' The premise of this deal relates to slot allocation and from what I can tell, the EU aren't exactly making it easy for either party. Fortunes must have already been dedicated to making this purchase happen, however there must only be so much either IAG or DLH will concede.

I've heard BMI pilots argue 'our slots will be used for longhaul so we should get to fly longhaul'.

I find it hard to believe any bmi pilot with half a head would be say this now. I should believe their thoughts concern the preservation of income, not on what f'in aircraft they get to fly and to where. If the deal doesn't go ahead or doesn't go ahead as proposed, they are in the sh1tter. End of!

[lamina]

Please spare us all the "food for though", or "food on the table" quotes. Bloody unimaginative and becoming frankly, quite boring.

We seem to have the same boring merry go round here as on the BALPA General forum, and no doubt the same contributors.

Friday is not to long to wait, although some of you do appear to love the sound of your own voices and will no doubt get your posting numbers up by then.

Before anyone says it, I'm out of here for another couple of years!

[BusDriverLHR]

I find it hard to believe any bmi pilot with half a head would be say this now. I should believe their thoughts concern the preservation of income, not on what f'in aircraft they get to fly and to where.

I'm assuming you haven't been reading the BALPA general froum then.

[Callsign Kilo]

I'm assuming you haven't been reading the BALPA general froum then.

Alright, so I haven't parked up at La La land just yet? Is there not wood to be seen for the trees here? There is no deal yet? No terms of any deal have been published? How can you have an argument over entitlement when the basis of what you believe you are entitled to hasn't even been decided. I'm getting very confused here. Surely it's that simple?

[BusDriverLHR]

Is there not wood to be seen for the trees here? There is no deal yet? No terms of any deal have been published?

We're all painfully aware that the EU may scupper the deal. What's being discussed is what would be a reasonable outcome for both pilot groups should the EU allow the deal to proceed in a manner that is satisfactory to BA/LH (i.e - can BA retain sufficient slots to make it worthwhile).

[Callsign Kilo]

EU's Almunia: mulling new IAG concessions for bmi
Wed Mar 28, 2012 3:23pm BST

BRUSSELS (Reuters) - EU regulators are assessing extra concessions offered by British Airways owner IAG (ICAG.L) to gain approval for its bid to buy Lufthansa's (LHAG.DE) British unit bmi, after initial proposals fell short, the EU's antitrust chief said on Wednesday.

IAG wants to buy bmi to boost its share of runway slots at London's Heathrow airport to about 52 percent from 43 percent, allowing it to launch lucrative new long-haul routes.

EU Competition Commissioner Joaquin Almunia said IAG submitted additional concessions on Tuesday, on top of others offered earlier this month.

"My services are analysing these. I have a meeting with the legal services and the chief economic team this afternoon. The opinion of the stakeholders consulted was negative, we take this very seriously," Almunia told a news conference.

He was referring to comments from IAG rivals and consumers during a market test of IAG's proposals.

"I very much hope these additional proposals will change our assessment," he said.

Two people familiar with the matter said IAG had initially offered to cede 10 slots for some domestic and non-domestic routes at Heathrow but has now increased the number to 14.

The Commission is due to decide by Friday whether to clear the deal or open an in-depth investigation that could take up to four months.

Rival and failed bmi bidder Virgin Atlantic VA.UL has called on antitrust regulators to block the deal, saying it would harm competition and push up prices.

[Say again s l o w l y]

Dear god...

What an absolute load of tosh. If this deal doesn't go through, then bmi will cease to exist. That's pretty obvious given the losses and lack of support from Lufty.

This is total nonsense.

[BitMoreRightRudder]

MrBenip

I'm not worried about anything thanks, quite happy in BA and looking forward to the Bmi guys (hopefully) joining in due course. Which of my comments do you find unsavoury? That I don't think you should join with your Bmi d.o.j fully intact? Like I said the fair solution lies in the middle.

[QUOTE]We are not looking to ride "roughshod" over any BA pilot and I don't see DOJ doing that/QUOTE]

If you really don't see the problem in each Bmi pilot bringing their d.o.j with them then it is pointless discussing this any further. There are several thousand of your future colleagues in disagreement with you on this inevitable sore-point.

As you said, the management will decide. I hope the solution is as fair as possible for everyone, including the other pilots within the Bmi group.

[QUOTE]You could have voted the other way for a stand alone but you didn't. /QUOTE]

True, and I'm not going to claim for one moment that this was some act of altruism, but I would hope any Bmi pilot would feel they are better off as part of BA mainline than a low cost off-shoot? If not then you clearly haven't worked for a loco!

[BusDriverLHR]

What an absolute load of tosh.

Care to elaborate on what part of this is 'a load of tosh'?

Yes, we are discussing the details of a take-over which may not happen, in which case the discussion is moot.

But there is a distinct possibility that it will happen, in which case the discussion will become very relevant. There are two groups of pilots that have very differing views on how a (reasonably likely) integration should take place. Is it a crime to discuss the potential mechanics of such an integration before we are certain it's going to take place??

[Say again s l o w l y]

Care to elaborate on what part of this is 'a load of tosh'?

Not this discussion, the fact that the EU are making such a horlicks of this.

[Danger_Mouse]

Apologies Say-Again, I misunderstood. Completely agree with you. It's a bloody disgrace that a bunch of eurocrats could see so many people lose their jobs.

[ScotPilot]

Going back to the original posting which started this thread, have the guys from Virgin who left BALPA been able to source a suitable alternative flight crew association?

[Count von Altibar]

I think some of the Virgin peeps have joined the Unite union as an alternative. Sadly the whole thing plays into VS management hands as they've no got a more divided representation amongst pilots. The spotlight is on BALPA big time over this BA/BMI case. They shouldn't be backing BA just because they make up the majority of union subs. It'll all end up in a legal bun fight at this rate.

[Threethirty]

Everything connected with the European Union is a complete bureaucratic mess. Whoever thought that ceding power to a bunch of eurocrats was a good idea is surely lamenting the decision now. We have effectively lost the sovereignty of this nation and this BA/BMI case speaks volumes on the sad state of this nation, we have become a vassal state of Brussels.
If this deal fails to go through then I will be lost for words, bearing in mind that AF/LH have a far greater percentage of slots in their home ports. :ugh:

[BusDriverLHR]

Apologies Say-Again, I misunderstood. Completely agree with you. It's a bloody disgrace that a bunch of eurocrats could see so many people lose their jobs.

* Previously posted on a mates computer (and hence his account) in error

[moo]

Looks like it's on, this just in an hour ago from Reuters:

BRUSSELS (Reuters) - British Airways owner IAG is set to win EU regulatory approval to acquire German group Lufthansa's British unit bmi after offering to give up additional airport slots, a person familiar with the matter said on Thursday.

IAG had initially proposed to cede 10 slots for domestic and non-domestic routes. But it increased the number to 14 after rivals and other parties told the European Commission the concessions were not sufficient. It was not clear at which airports the 14 slots are located.

Antoine Colombani, a spokesman for the competition unit at the Commission, declined to comment on the case. Both IAG and Lufthansa also declined to comment.

The European Union executive was due to decide by Friday on the deal, which is worth 172.5 million pounds ($273 million).

IAG trumped rival bidder Virgin late last year in the race to acquire loss-making bmi, which has coveted slots at London's Heathrow airport, Europe's busiest.

IAG currently has a 43.1 percent share of the take-off and landing slots at Heathrow. Together, IAG and bmi have a combined share of 53 percent of the airport's slots.

Virgin has urged EU regulators to block the deal, saying it would harm competition and push up prices.

[sudden twang]

So
Pilot A joins bmi 1st April 1992
Pilot B joins bmi. 10th April 1992

Pilot A leaves bmi 1st April 1993 joins BA.
Pilot A is pencilled in for his A380 command in 2013

Is it fair that Pilot B gets the 380 command before Pilot A due to a merged MSL on DOJ ?

[Count von Altibar]

There will always be winners and losers in merged seniority lists. That's the problem with the system of seniority that's peculiar to the aviation industry. There needs to be a vehicle that respects everybody's position to the best degree, as somebody said elsewhere, 'an agreement that leaves the least number of p****d off people'!

[sudden twang]

The least number peed off that's easy, all bmi to the bottom = 3300 content 320 pee'd off.
We can close the thread now that's sorted

[Jockster]

Morning Count. The wording on the agreement is that NO BA pilot will be disadvantaged not MOST BA wil not be disadvantged otherwise the BA pilots would have to be re-ballotted on the 'new' arrangement. Sorry bmi guys - its the bottom of the list for you with 'grandfather' rights for skippers on the 320.

[SkyRocket10]

The BACC have confirmed on a number of occasions that 'NO BA pilot will be disadvantaged', they have also stated that the seniority number of no BA pilot will change. These statements were the reason a number of people voted to integrate BMI and I find it highly unlikely the CC or BA will renege on these promises.

BMI pilots will be offered two choices-
1/ a seperate A320 subfleet, which retains all existing T&C's. No more, no less!
2/ a voluntary transfer to the bottom of the MSL with grandfather rights on a new contract. This will gain BMI pilots access to BA mainline T&C's on the 34pp scale.

A simple choice and more importantly completey legal.

Something else that hasnt been mentioned is that due to the reduction of slots, IAG will have a surplus of pilots PRIOR to integration. Inevitably there will be redundancies in BMI mainline prior to integration, how these are handled by BMICC will be an added challenge.

Good luck guys!

[Count von Altibar]

Jockster what about the IFALPA guidelines that BALPA should be sticking to, they're not just as simple as everyone to the bottom of the list. What about employment rights, nothing written into law about seniority, is it all going to stand-up in court should it be challenged? IAG/BA might not find the BA company council plans too palatable if it isn't respectful of the current UK/EU laws. I cannot think of a situation where the BA CC will be issuing contracts to BMI pilots, I guess BA already have departments that look after all of that, like any other company in the real world. I'm not to sure what you signed up to but it might not be what you thought it was.

[BusDriverLHR]

IAG/BA might not find the BA company council plans too palatable if it isn't respectful of the current UK/EU laws.

Count & onedollar,

are you familiar with the requirements of TUPE (i.e. current UK/EU law)?

I'm not, but the BACC are. And they are confident that TUPE can be adhered to (and even bettered from a BMI pilot point of view) without disadvantaging any BA pilot.

They also believe that the BMI-CC's chances of securing a deal that is better than the basic requirements of TUPE would be much higher with the help/advice of the BACC. The BMI-CC seem to disagree. Rumours are that EU approval is (thankfully) forthcoming, so I guess we'll soon see which CC is right.

[Yellow Pen]

IFALPA-schmalpa. I hardly think a voluntary code by IFALPA is going to effectively influence the outcome of the debate in any way, shape, or form. Equally, BALPA are not going to persuade the BACC to accept a shafting for BA pilots. I doubt they'd even try lest the biggest membership group walk away from the organisation.

[ScotPilot]

IFALPA-schmalpa. I hardly think a voluntary code by IFALPA is going to effectively influence the outcome of the debate in any way, shape, or form. Equally, BALPA are not going to persuade the BACC to accept a shafting for BA pilots. I doubt they'd even try lest the biggest membership group walk away from the organisation.

I actually agree with most of what you have written. I don't think they will try to act in the interests of any members other then BA. It is clearly a re statement of BALPA as the British Airways Line Pilots Association. Ignore your IFALPA responsibilities at your peril. What has to come out of this is a new Flight Crew Association in the UK which can speak on behalf of the majority of the pilots who are outside BA. It is also another reason why the FTL campaign is doomed. We are incapable of acting as a collective group. That is why I wanted to find out whether or not the guys from Virgin had made any progress. I am hoping for an organised mass exodous from BALPA if this goes the way it is looking from where I am standing.

[wiggy]

"We are incapable of acting as a collective group"......" I am hoping for an organised mass exodous from BALPA if this goes the way it is looking from where I am standing".



I'm not sure I follow your logic.

[MrBenip]

"I'm not sure I follow your logic." - Really? How strange.

[MrBenip]

Yellowpen Quote "Equally, BALPA are not going to persuade the BACC to accept a shafting for BA pilots." So is it an unbiased union with equal representation for all pilot members or BA's union? Hmmm.

[Callsign Kilo]

Something else that hasnt been mentioned is that due to the reduction of slots, IAG will have a surplus of pilots PRIOR to integration. Inevitably there will be redundancies in BMI mainline prior to integration, how these are handled by BMICC will be an added challenge.

So there will be redundancies post purchase but prior to integration? Is this an 'official' consequence of IAG agreeing to surrender 14 of bmi's slot pairs rather than 10? Does BA mainline not have a recruitment requirement? I understand DEP hire has been suspended, however I was led to believe that the priority of integrating the bmi guys was largely the reason behind this?

[Hand Solo]

Scotpilot & Benip - You can churn out your theories about the British Airways Pilots Association til the cows come home but you are ignoring the inconvenient truth that BA negotiates with the BACC on behalf of BA pilots, not Big BALPA. Big BALPA can dictate whatever solution it wants to the BACC but they are not obliged to accept it, nor do they have a mandate from their constituents to accept it. The BACC are BA pilots negotiating collectively on behalf of BA pilots. They are not NEC stooges elected to jump when big BALPA says so. I expect the BACC to seek the best solution for BA pilots, not disadvantage their 3000+ members simply to placate others.

[BusDriverLHR]

From IAG:


REGULATORY APPROVAL FOR BMI DEAL
The European Commission (EC) has today given regulatory approval for International Airlines Group's purchase of bmi from Lufthansa.

Some technical conditions need to be finalised before completion, which is anticipated to take place around April 20, 2012. Following completion, it is intended that bmi mainline will be integrated into British Airways during the coming months.

IAG has offered the following commitments to the EC as part of the regulatory process:
· Seven daily slot pairs to be used between Heathrow and either Edinburgh and/or Aberdeen.
· Five daily slot pairs to be used between Heathrow and the following destinations - Nice, Cairo, Riyadh, Moscow, Edinburgh and/or Aberdeen.
· Two Heathrow daily slot pairs will be leased to Transaero for use on flights to Moscow.
· Other airlines can apply for seats on the integrated BA/bmi short and midhaul network for their transfer passengers, on normal commercial terms.

IAG chief executive Willie Walsh said: "We're delighted the EC has given competition approval for our acquisition of bmi. Their decision follows a thorough review during which the views of key stakeholders have been taken into account.

"This is great news for Britain. Over time we will launch new longhaul routes to key trading nations that are currently not served from Heathrow while supporting our shorthaul network. This is good for UK business and UK consumers. We have already announced that British Airways will re-start flights from Belfast to Heathrow, maintaining important economic links.

"Expanding our longhaul network also helps Heathrow grow as an international hub airport despite its infrastructure constraints.
"This deal will maintain high quality jobs at bmi and create similar jobs when we expand. More British jobs will be saved than if bmi had closed. British Airways will consult with bmi staff and their unions as soon as possible.

"We plan to operate bmi's summer schedule and will update their customers once the transaction has been completed".
The acquisition cost of bmi is unchanged at £172.5m in cash, on a debt-free, cash-free basis, but is subject to significant price reductions if Lufthansa does not opt to sell bmi baby.

IAG's Heathrow slot portfolio, excluding the commitments made to the EC, will increase by at least an average of 42 daily slot pairs. The transaction is still expected to be earnings accretive by 2014 at the latest. The commitments do not affect IAG's plans to increase its 2015 operating profit target of €1.5 billion by €100 million and its target of delivering a 12 per cent return on capital employed. IAG estimates that restructuring costs related to the integration of bmi will be around £100 million spread over three years with the majority in year one.

[lamina]

Hand Solo

Hear, hear.

You will undoubtably have no problem with the bmicc attempting to get a resonable deal for their members then.

[Count von Altibar]

Quite right ScotPilot, the eyes will be on BALPA over this BA/BMI merger. They have a golden opportunity to act in a fair and balanced way or side with the ones who make up the majority of their membership. Their choice and they'll deal with the consequences as an organisation if they get it wrong. They've been publicly quiet on the whole issue up to now.

[Super Stall]

They've been publicly quiet on the whole issue up to now.

No they haven't. Balpa's view via the IRSC (Industrial Relations Sub Commitee) is available for all members to read on the Balpa forum's general members area. The IRSC is made up of pilots and Balpa officers who are not connected to either BA or BMI.

[Van G]

And more importantly than seniority, I wonder what they will do to help the regional and baby pilots...

[Count von Altibar]

What have BALPA's legal people said about it Super Stall, that wouldn't fit well with the shove everybody to the bottom of the list brigade. The truth is that it isn't down to the BA company council, it'll be the BA legal people and their HR department etc. that oversee all of this. I'm not trying to wreck your seniority list or career aspirations, just pointing out the reality of the situation.

[Hand Solo]

It would appear that BAs view is that either the bmi pilots go to the bottom of the list to keep the peace, or if theres any prospect of unrest from them they go on a standalone, TUPE-protected dying fleet. BALPAs view is that the bmi cc wont get any sort of deal out of BA without the assistance of the BACC, and the BACC have made it clear their members will only tolerate bmi joining on the bottom of the list. As has been said before, TUPE doesnt guarantee you anything beyond what you have right now.

[BusDriverLHR]

For anyone who hasn't seen it, the BALPA IRSC recommendations (as posted on the BALPA forum) make for interesting reading.

[Nevermind]

Count

I think what you need to be aware of is that the agreed savings from BA pilot community to allow BMI to join our airline were tied to the BA CC being satisfied with the seniority arrangements.

So there is much incentive for BA to ensure that happens.

[Human Factor]

What have BALPA's legal people said about it Super Stall, that wouldn't fit well with the shove everybody to the bottom of the list brigade. The truth is that it isn't down to the BA company council, it'll be the BA legal people and their HR department etc. that oversee all of this. I'm not trying to wreck your seniority list or career aspirations, just pointing out the reality of the situation.

Count,

The IRSC report on the BALPA forum will answer most of your questions and you're right in that BA legal have a large say in the matter. There are many reasons detailing why the final outcome will go broadly in the direction indicated by the BA posters.

[Fir Tree]

The recent precedent set by the BMED integration into the bmi seniority system seems to only attract aggression coupled with weak defence of an apparent u-turn of legal interpretations.

Let`s hope the employers interpretation results in a fair compromise for all.

[look you]

I'm baffled. You are on the brink of what is widely acknowledged as a once in a lifetime growth opportunity in BA that should provide opportunity for all beyond what they could have imagined a few months ago. The BACC want bmi pilots at the bottom of the MSL with augmented rights, so bmi pilots aren't unfairly disadvantaged. The bmi CC want an integrated list using one of a number of methods recently employed by BALPA in other mergers, with mitigation to ensure the existing BA pilots aren't unfairly disadvantaged.

Assuming that 'augmenting' one group is broadly the same as 'mitigating' for the other, am I right in thinking that there is about to be an almighty fallout over what 'number' you are and who gets the most sweets? Really? If my kids were having this row I'd bang their heads together and tell them to grow up and share the opportunities offered as if they were actually part of the same Association in a profession with a supposedly noble history. Can't any of you move away from focussing on 'disadvantages' and celebrate the advantages? Honestly, I've seen more sensible discussions over the toys in a sandpit at nursery school.

[Walnut]

As a former member of the BACC/NEC I am accutely aware of the in fighting that is about to take place. There have been many past integrations of pilots into BA. ie the joining of BOAC & BEA the Cambrian pilots Dan Air Caledonion etc. To make the airline work in a harmonious way it is necessary for all to work in a constructive way. If you produce a lop sided agreement then resentments will develop. I remind everyone that the ratio of bmi pilots to BA pilots is about 1 to 11. The advantages of having say 20 new longhaul routes with the opportunities they will give must far outweigh any petty squabbles re seniority.
A type freeze of the joiners for a period to allow the current BA pilots to move to a position/fleet of their choice before the merging of the seniority lists is a sensible way to go

[LHRbound]

So theres my hopes sounding dashed. I understand that people are frustrated. I really am sick of hearing all of the moaning from BMI pilots about joining the bottom of the BA list. That is exactly the place I want to be, I applied and passed the selection and I am now waiting for a start date in the hold pool. I am in this position due to redundancy and I came out to the middle east, where by the way there are plenty of jobs!! But to be at the bottom of the list of a successful and strong company is much better than one which always has uncertainty. If all you want is a quick command and to fly the 380 then come to middle east, however I would happily trade places with all of you.

But please bear in mind that there are those of us who hope for a quick solution and continued expansion just so that we can continue our careers. And we are all more than happy to go behind all of you on the seniority!

[xwindflirt]

Lhr pony,
You claim to have knowledge of impending redundancies amongst the bmi mainline fo's. Aside from the fact that the current slots need to be flown, are you suggesting that the specifics of the redundancies were determined prior to the approval of the purchase, which was only announced yesterday? Justifying such redundancies in light of walsh's explicit assertions, that bmi slots are to be converted into long haul operations, seems highly doubtful. This, compounded with ba's current, and recent, recruitment drives, suggests that any pilot redundancies, especially any predetermined redundancies, are unlikely to be lawful in the specifics of the ba/bmi merger.

[LHRPony]

All recruitment (short haul and long haul) was stopped a few months ago when it was clear the takeover was going ahead (do you think Ba waited until y'day to start planning the integration?) and apparently became clear that flight ops would be significantly over crewed, in the same way a lot of the back office roles are also over crewed. Combine this with Mr Walsh being very clear y'day that there will be reduundancies.
Do you think being a pilot means you will be treated any differently to your ops, marketing, engineering etc when it comes to redundancies? or will they do what the did during the Dan air takeover and say we need 90 ish pilots, the rest were not given contracts? I know one of the guys who was let go during that affair, he's now in Ba as a dep fo many years later, flying with his former dandair fo colleagues who are now long haul capts.
The expansion that everyone talks about with long haul is years away, we can't just rock up and grab a few 777's off the shelf.
No conspiracy or am I claiming to have access to info that isn't already out there (check the balpa forum), but that's what happened before and that's probably what will happen again......meanwhile everyone is bitching about seniority and missing the bigger issue.

For the record I would hate, absolutely hate to see any pilot without a job, baby and regional included.
Maybe the Bmi guys should be putting there energy into that rather than deciding how to cut up the cake without realising the cake just got a lot smaller.
Xwindflirt as unappealing as it would be it would be completely legal for Ba to say we only need x amount of pilots, in exactly the same way Ba can say we longer require the services of baby or regional pilots, why do you think Bmi is a different special case?

[Callsign Kilo]

xwindflirt

Yes, bmi's slots need flown, but there is now 14 less slot pairs to actually fly as a result of yesterday's deal. I also accept that IAG purchased bmi in order to obtain their slots for longhaul expansion, however this won't be an overnight job - this is something that will take YEARS. BA for one don't have the airframes to do so and you unfortunately can't do a Rangoon and back in a bmi A319.

IAG will fulfil bmi's summer schedule and slowly wind it down until you have one big BA. The last thing I think that they want is another loss making SH operation. They already posses one! God knows how they plan to do it, however having 14 less slot pairs to initially worry about may actually do them a favour; who knows?

As for BA's recent recruitment drive, I can tell you something from experience. As soon as the plan to acquire bmi was announced, the buoyant level of recruitment slowed down to a trickle. At the beginning of the year it was announced that it would be suspended come March. Anyone awaiting a course date from BA would subsequently have their tenure in the hold pool extended from a standard 12 months to 18 months. Their potential employment would be pending developments largely external to BA. So in terms of legality, you have little to worry about. BA hasn't been making anyone offers whilst the decision over the purchase and integration of bmi was being made.

So if there are to be redundancies in mainline and of course baby and regional, then I'm not at all surprised. As horrible as it will be for those affected, Walsh will always stick by the arguement that if IAG hadnt been permitted to take bmi then bmi itself would have ceased to exist. Branson could have huffed and puffed all he liked about how he would have re-engaged in negotiations, however all he wanted to ensure in all of this was that IAG and BA didn't get bmi. After all, what would Virgin Atlantic have done with it?

[Walnut]

I for one will stick my neck out and suggest that there will be no pilot redundancies. Why because shorthaul a/c are crewed with 5 crews per a/c whereas longhaul need approx 10 crews per a/c, Now if it is BA's plan is to start up to 20 extra longhaul services then that will absorb a lot more people. I suggest the long term plan is for the LGW 737s (17 a/c) to be phased out and be replaced by an equivalent number of bmi 320s, That leaves most of other 10ish bmi a/c to operate the ex BMED routes. Such a plan is how the shorthaul slots will become longhaul ones. The tricky part will be how the 737 LGW pilots (a lot unwilling) will be handled.
What I have sugested is very contentious but with goodwill could be managed. It just makes sense that the BA shorthaul fleet is one type, most of the 737s at LGW are oldish and also fuel inefficient

[No walkover]

Callsign Kilo & LHRPony

Both of you are way overreading this situation, whether by choice or through mistake. Xwindflirt is quite right, the slots immediately need to be flown.

The big picture you are missing is the fact that 12 slots are potentially up for grabs on select routes only, whilst 2 are being 'leased' to Transaero.

Firstly, we do not know how long this lease is for? The details have yet to be announced of this but there is potential for these to return to BA at some time in the future far as I can interpret the press release.

Secondly (and this is far more important and relevant), what airlines do you already know of that are going to jump at the opportunity to fly the shorthaul domestic routes from Scotland to LHR? If no one comes forward to operate them, then by default IMHO, they return to BA. If so, who do you think will be needed to operate them? Oh no, I forgot, you already made them redundant in your ideal scenario!

The other consideration is that BA lease some longhaul airframes to utilise these slots asap. That's not before even considering the fact that there is potentially 2 airframes (according to rumours at least) that may be replacing BD's current A330s, when the current ones get returned to the lessors. As BD already have current type rated pilots, together with engineers, there is also potential for BA to damp lease other 330s which are equally ideal aircraft to operate start up routes initially, until BA can wheel out the real big guns inline with their existing orders or moth-balled ones.

Rather than worrying folk unnecessarily, I would suggest that we wait to hear facts rather than speculative negativity, unless your objective is to try and unsettle people to accepting a place at the bottom of the MSL without fair discussion?:=

I have already spelt out my position on this matter earlier in this thread and why there should be fair and accurate discussion on the bringing together of the two airlines. The 'so called' independant report drafted by the Union is farcical and this matter I believe is being reviewed, as there are considerable errors and ommisions throughout.

BALPA have almost used up the last of their lives on this mistake and already people are considering options from the IPA to group representation with funding from individuals. BALPA NEC should take note that some hold them personally responsible if they renege on the legal stance that they insisted was the only avenue open at the time of the bmi/BMED takeover, if a similar line is not strongly suggested to the BACC too. If this is the case, they could find themselves having to answer some very difficult questions.

The real discussion point though should be about how to make Baby and Regional attractive options to potential purchasers or even to BA in order to minimise job losses. I also believe that it should only be fair that a suspension of holdpoolers 'time in pool clocks' should be frozen until this whole complex matter is fully worked through. After all, why should they also be disadvantaged by a situation which should be seen as a long term 'advantage' for everyone.

[Callsign Kilo]

Much prefer your opinion, No walkover, and I apologise to those who I may have pressed additional anxiety upon - bad form on my part.

Mods, close this thread and remove all others that are similar. They are f**king with people's heads unnecessarily. It's best to await the official synopsis, as No walkover suggests.

[No walkover]

Fair play Callsign Kilo and from your posting, I can see that no harm was intended on your part.

Fingers crossed this can all be worked through swiftly and as previously mentioned by looking at the fact that there IS potential for a huge medium to long term ADVANTAGES to many and not focussing on the very subjective and transient DISADVANTAGES to a few.

Now that LH and IAG can take a deep breath after the EU news, both parties but espcially LH should be looking at serious options for Baby and Regional. These companies have REAL potential. Lufty need to really pull out all the stops to consider every possible option, rather than resting on laurels now that the LHR deal is secured.

Perhaps they have been working hard behind the scenes, if so they need to be communicating this more regularly with the staff. These are loyal hardworking professionals who have maintained the exisiting BMI reputation as a major UK player in the airline industry and they deserve better.

[Hand Solo]

One might say life isn't fair. The BA response to a threat of legal challenge to seniority will be a standalone ex-midland fleet, Carmen rostered, no right of transfer, grandfather rights to command. Exactly what TUPE promises. It's not in BAs interests to get involved in a legal battle to bring you benefits beyond those which TUPE requires. You are pointing an empty gun at BAs head and they know it.

[Flying Wild]

Fair play Callsign Kilo and from your posting, I can see that no harm was intended on your part.

Fingers crossed this can all be worked through swiftly and as previously mentioned by looking at the fact that there IS potential for a huge medium to long term ADVANTAGES to many and not focussing on the very subjective and transient DISADVANTAGES to a few.

Now that LH and IAG can take a deep breath after the EU news, both parties but espcially LH should be looking at serious options for Baby and Regional. These companies have REAL potential. Lufty need to really pull out all the stops to consider every possible option, rather than resting on laurels now that the LHR deal is secured.

Perhaps they have been working hard behind the scenes, if so they need to be communicating this more regularly with the staff. These are loyal hardworking professionals who have maintained the exisiting BMI reputation as a major UK player in the airline industry and they deserve better.

Let's face it. DLH had ample opportunity to fight the BMI corner once they took the group on. Radical changes were required at the outset to stem the massive losses. Nothing substantial was done and now look at where we are. DLH only have their own interests at heart now, as do IAG. They are out to do the best for their shareholders, they couldn't give a damn about the people working for baby or regional. The bottom line is profit. Losses interest nobody.

The real discussion point though should be about how to make Baby and Regional attractive options to potential purchasers or even to BA in order to minimise job losses.

Bare in mind that this isn't a sale of baby. Prospective suitors will be paid to take the company on! Nobody seems to be jumping up to take baby, even though this is the case. The last communication from the MD of baby was certainly of a very neutral tone compared to his previous upbeat, "it'll happen next week" e-mails. As negative as it sounds, sadly, I think it is fairly indicative of where things are going. If a winter schedule isn't on sale for baby soon, then there is going to be a massive loss of confidence in the airline and I think the future will be pretty clear. I for one would love for the future to be rosy.

Time for me to polish off that CV...

[Nevermind]

No Walkover

Am I the only one to be slightly disturbed by your message to BALPA and the NEC, and supposed strong suggestions to the BACC?
The BACC are our reps - ie they represent the views of the vast majority of the BA flight crew.
And, as I pointed out earlier, we agreed to the £10M pa savings to allow the integration to be achieved.

The key point is that these savings are subject to the BACC, ie the representatives of the BA flight crew, being satisfied with arrangements regarding seniority.

Would it be easier for you if we simply referred to the BA flight crew instead of the BACC? Then your posting reads

"BALPA NEC should take note that some hold them personally responsible if they renege on the legal stance that they insisted was the only avenue open at the time of the bmi/BMED takeover, if a similar line is not strongly suggested to the BA flight crew too."

[Count von Altibar]

I fully agree with Walnut. The fruits of expansion that will come with the purchase of BMI will be significant and can be enjoyed by everyone. The way to penalise the new arrivals is through a significant type freeze, perhaps 5 years. That way the BA pilots can get a massive head-start on the expansion and disadvantaging the bmi pilots. But after a period of time it must become a level playing field.

[160til4]

Count,
Whilst agreeing the potential for significant expansion, we all know that this cannot be guaranteed.The expansion may be substantial, but for any of us long enough in the airline world for seniority to matter, there is a huge difference between what might happen and what often actually does. For example, according to the "predicted substantial growth" when I joined my present airline, I would have had a longhaul command 6 years ago rather than being at least a few years away from that even now. So all it would take is any one of an seemingly infinite source of potential external shocks for the industry, and the "massive expansion" so often talked about could easily evaporate overnight. So while talk of a 5 year freeze on BMI guys to give BA pilots a "head start" may sound reasonable, it could easily result in that freeze ending just when any expansion actually does start. For those so convinced of the "huge expansion" the BMI slots will bring, then should they as a group be given a BA doj from the date of integration/merger, surely by their own argument they won`t have to wait long to be moving swiftly up the BA master seniority list?

[take_that]

My gut feeling is inline with Walnut's.

We should all be grateful for the bounty that this can bring the two groups. I honestly believe that the two groups can bring forward a synergy that was all but impossible before yesterday for both groups.

I therefore share No walkover's positivity and understand their sentiments. Both groups have much to gain, can we not look forward rather than viewing things purely in the immediate short term.

I do also understand why there is a certain dissatisfaction with regard to lack of BALPA HQ acting as a facilitator to bring a united front but having said that, I think it may just be that they do not want to waste energy prior to yesterday's announcement. It will be very interesting though how they act and the message they portray.

I understand that BALPA has a massive revenue stream from the BA folk and why it would be in their interests to come down on this side of the debate. From a BMI perspective, I can completely see why No pushover and others would feel aggrieved if this were the case by BALPA after the previous merger.

Ultimately though, I think that the only fair and honourable position BALPA can take, is the one that protects themselves from contentious issues following their advice. To that end, it may not be a decision that either BA or BMI pilots actually want to hear and quite possibly completely different or in between the two CCs.

I personally do not think that there should have to be a type freeze. What would be interesting would be to see how many bmi pilots actually would want to change fleet. For sure some may want to, e.g. some of the remaining BMED staff would have joined a company with expectations of flying longer distances and the respective lifestyle issues. Then again some of the BMI staff may not have chosen to apply to BA/longhaul because they were happy flying around Europe and returning home more regularly.

I think that some of the BA pilots maybe surprised at the percentage of BMI pilots that may wish to jump ships. In fact, we do have a fleet bid form somewhere, which would show how many actually requested to transfer fleet if the option became available.

[BusDriverLHR]

The way to penalise the new arrivals is through a significant type freeze, perhaps 5 years.

People need to realise that an initial freeze is a temporary measure that solves nothing.

There were guys that were a month or two ahead of me in Oxford who joined BMI shorty before I joined BA. I'm (significantly) more than 5 years away from a long-haul command so by your logic the BMI guys who join BA today get a shot at a long-haul command on a 747/777/787/A380 before me. As anyone in BA knows, a few places in seniority could mean literally years (no exaggeration and not that unlikely either) in the wait for a seat/fleet.

You may find that acceptable but I know about 3300 people who absolutely do not.

The current career prospects of BMI pilots will be protected (with the exception that their new airline isn't on the verge of bankruptcy). But a BMI-DOJ based place on the BA-MSL isn't going to happen. The BACC/BA will see to that and they'll do so entirely within the confines of the law. If the BMI-CC are interested, the BACC will help them get good a deal as possible. But not one that disadvantages BA pilots. Everyone needs to have a serious look at what their career prospects were a year ago and factor that into what they expect them to be a year from now.

If you have issues with the fact that thats not how BMI/BMED was handled then I suggest you take it up with the BMI-CC/BALPA.

[Artie Fufkin]

Looking in from the outside (I'm neither BA or BMI), the thing that seems obvious is that from what I hear, on day one at BA you are indoctrinated with the mantra "seniority is everything", which is proven to be true every day of your entire career at BA.

It seems somewhat naive of the BMI pilots tothink that the BA pilots would allow any threat to the very fundamental of their working life.

One can only imagine the fallout if a BMI pilot took the matter to court and, in doing so, destroyed the seniority list at BA...

[Hotel Mode]

One can only imagine the fallout if a BMI pilot took the matter to court and, in doing so, destroyed the seniority list at BA...

BALPA took the holiday pay claim to court 8 years ago and arent finished yet. How deep are the fictional BMI pilots pockets? BALPA won't be paying.

Realistically the only people seriously bothered are the Bmi captains. Most of the FOs will hopefully take the view that the long term career is worth a short term loss.

A lot of Captains from Cityflyer voluntarily bid for RHS longhaul anyway. I think Bmi might be the same. Big basic pay cut, moderate allowance improvement coupled with a lifestyle no other airline on the planet allows.

Come on in, the waters lovely.

[xwindflirt]

You are most likely right. That would however leave balpa exposed to a breach of contact with every none ba member in the country. A dilemma that must surely be weighing on their minds.

[Hotel Mode]

You are most likely right. That would however leave balpa exposed to a breach of contact with every none ba member in the country. A dilemma that must surely be weighing on their minds.


We all had exactly the same thoughts when the unprofitable BA absorbed us profitable Cityflyer types. I was months away from a 146 command and here I am stuck in the RHS of a 747. However, I earn more than I would have, I have a lifestyle pretty much everyone would desire and I love my job.

I think most of the anger will dissipate once everyone realises how good BA is.

[sudden twang]

If bmi had 9 747s 9 777s and 9 320s rather than 27 airbus a/c do you think there would be an issue?
One only has to look at the seniority of longhaul v shorthaul to realise there is a massive preference for LH.
Personally I don't see a judge siding with a bmi pilot who chose not to join BA over a pilot who joined bmi a week earlier and then left bmi for BA .
It just doesn't pass the fairness test so frequently quoted here.
So far the only response has been ' there are winners and losers'.
Well in this particular game we all had a choice back BA or back bmi.
Why should bmi pilots be the winners and BA pilots be the losers?
The 5 year freeze doesn't cut it because when it ends it still affects bidding rights.
If bmi pilots challenge seniority BA will fight it and if they don't BA pilots will. If you destroy the seniority system what would you have in place? Meritocracy for command ? Based upon what? Last 3 sim cx scores ? Minimum fuel carriage? Daren't go sick? Old boy network? Ability not to say boo to a goose?
And if many bmi pilots don't want LH why all the fuss you can more or less do what you do now with exactly the same opportunities.
The crux of the matter is opportunities in LH.

[Human Factor]

That would however leave balpa exposed to a breach of contact with every none ba member in the country. A dilemma that must surely be weighing on their minds.

Unlikely. It has nothing to do with non-BA BALPA members other than those in BMI. In practice, BALPA has to represent the best interests of it's overall membership (BA and everyone else) therefore it is unlikely to take a position to avoid any issues from either side.

Remember however that if anyone from BMI challenges the BA seniority system, it will actually be BA/IAG who they take on, not BALPA. If you think you need deep pockets to take on BALPA, you ain't seen nothin' yet.

[xwindflirt]

I think you might not have recognised that there are two separate issues. If balpa chooses not to represent a group of its members simply because 3300 ba members won't like the outcome, then that flies in the face of their mission statement "to represent all uk pilots".
I do agree though that bmi pilots expecting to come in with their doj intact in respect of seniority is a non starter. It is also a non starter to expect those same bmi pilots to come in at the bottom to start again, especially when that position is not supported in law.
Balpa members all pay a substantial contribution and expect to be represented in a consistent and fair manner.

[sudden twang]

Xwind flirt

It is also a non starter to expect those same bmi pilots to come in at the bottom to start again, especially when that position is not supported in law.

I Don't think you know that with any degree of certainty. Many believe it not to be the case. We may find out in time.

[Propellerhead]

There's so much rubbish being written here. Just wait and see what the 2 CCs come up with and I think everyone will be pleasantly surprised.

I'm sure 3800 pilots can absorb any pilot surplus, esp with a lot of over 55s and 60s in both airlines.

No BA pilot will be disadvantaged in terms of status or seniority, and bmi pilots will FINALLY get a stable secure future with one of the biggest airlines in the world with some of the best terms and conditions, the strongest union who achieve a lot through sensible negotiation, fantastic career opportunites - long haul, short haul, training FO positions (which bmi never had), great staff travel, STABLE ROSTERS (yes, really - plus access to the best lifestyle bidding system there is) a pay rise over time (including access to much better flying pay and allowances, especially as BA enjoy more generous tax breaks on them).

I don't think many bmi pilots will feel hard done by once the dust has settled. There are lots of options being explored to negate the effects of being at the bottom of the seniority list, not least the right to commands in the future which bmi are bringing into the mix (ie no bmi pilot will have to wait longer for a SH command than had they stayed as bmi). Believe me a negotiated settlement between the 2 cc's will be far better than if BA simply do it.

LIFO will be preserved so bmi pilots will no longer have to worry for their jobs, and will keep their DOJ for staff travel.

No one in BA wants to see a fractured work force, a combined united workforce is essential for the future challenges we all face (ie EU FTLs in case anyone has forgotton). bmi pilots will be welcomed with open arms into the fold and will be integrated fully into the community.

[xwindflirt]

"you don't know that with any degree of certainty"

With all due respect, my aforementioned certainly is based on information and knowledge which is readily accessible for those who choose to access it. Current employment law statutes are pretty explicit in terms of protections for employees and procedures. Any areas which are open to interpretation have previously been posed to the Courts, producing precedents.

Any decision taken unilaterally to take a different path to that which is deemed lawful, in light of clear statute and precedent, is likely to give rise to a challenge.

[sudden twang]

Xwindflirt
That would quite possibly have been the most arrogant posting
on a forum ever ,if you'd quoted correctly.

[Count von Altibar]

The hopeful outcome of the BAcc where all bmi pilots are put to the bottom of the master seniority list is flying in the face of recent company mergers overseen by Balpa. It also completely ignores the IFALPA guidelines for such scenarios. The whole thing will go legal if this isn't resolved and if Balpa don't fund it, there are other sources that will. I'm not issuing threats, just my observations with my knowledge of what's in place.

[Juan Tugoh]

So, if there were to be a legal challenge, what would the likely outcome be? The destruction of the BA MSL? Actually BA would love that, it would kill Bidline stone dead and all other seniority based bidding. So the BMI guys would probably not get those LH commands they want as it would cost BA money they would not need to spend, also they would not get Bidline and the lifestyle improvements it represents. Commands would be at BA's discretion - upgrades could easily become dependent on how good your golf score was when you last played with the Chief Pilot.

All the above is deliberately overdramatic, but when entering into a legal dispute it is important that one has a very clear understanding of where it will take you. Often the only winners are the lawyers and the end result is seldom the panacea being sought.

[Hand Solo]

I do love this one! They're gonna sue BA because they haven't been given something they're not legally entitled to? Nice one! The first sign of trouble and BA will stick them all on a standalone, basic TUPE fleet to whither on the vine. it really won't be worth BAs trouble to offer anything more.

[Justin Cyder-Belvoir]

To resolve the differences in aspirations BALPA arranges a meeting between the BACC and the bmiCC: they act as brokers / intermediaries.

The negotiations go to and fro: BA want the bmi crews in at the bottom of the list: the bmi crews want integration based on seniority.

Outcome: the BA view prevails and the bmi pilots all go on to the bottom of the list with the proviso that a fleet change for an existing bmi Captain means a seat change and re-role as an FO.

Except that, the bmiCC get the transfer to the fleet they want, in their current rank and keep it sine die.

BALPA sign up the whole shebang and announce everyone is happy with the concluded negotiated position. :ok:

[ScotPilot]

The first sign of trouble and BA will stick them all on a standalone, basic TUPE fleet to whither on the vine. it really won't be worth BAs trouble to offer anything more.

This view demonstrates breathtaking naivety. Having bmi pilots stuck on a standalone TUPE fleet will generate very significant problems for BA and BA pilots. It will also build in massive extra cost for BA as they will have to maintain a very different contract of employment with a very small working group. You can be sure that any disgruntled group such as this will organise themselves. Maybe they could offer BA a 40% reduction in the crew cost across the long haul fleet. It would be a massive thorn in the side of BA pilots. Believe me, no BA pilot in their right mind should wish for this outcome. :ugh:

[Megaton]

BMI crew on a standalone basis might be a thorn in the side of BA pilots but how do you think BA will recover the costs associated with the purchase of BMI? Standing alone with no protection from TUPE, the ex-BMI pilots will be bending over and waiting for the cricket bat before you can blink.

[CAT3C AUTOLAND]

Amazing 140 odd posts, and the majority of us Bmi guys are just happy to be employed, nothing more, nothing less.

[Jumpjim]

:ok::ok:

Welcome to the company.

[Hand Solo]

Completely incorrect ScotPilot. BA already operate one 'standalone' fleet of circa 300 pilots, our Gateick operation. No massive costs there. A Bmi standalone operation would simply be adding 300 blind line holders to an administrative sub-fleet at LHR - cheap and easy. The decision to integrate the Bmi assets has already been taken by IAG. That means all the flying comes under the BA Scope agreement. BA have agreed to that because they know they'll never make enough savings by running BA-light to justify the cost of the unrest from their major pilot group. Park the idea that Bmi will start growing within BA, it's not going to happen.

[Walnut]

Just as I predicted both sides are at each others throats. With 20ish new L/H routes thats about 200 extra L/H commands needed (10 crews per a/c) That is about 2/3rds of the potential joiners, (some of the joining Capts I predict will leave. when terms are explained) some sense of the potential benefits for all needs to be considered. I just hope the two CCs can reach a sensible understanding. To produce a thorn within BA would just play into managements hands, We all saw what happened at EOG and the years of debate that took place. Bidline was only saved by making a separate fleet with a unique scheduling process. I was on the BACC at that time & realise now we could have played it better. There is only one true enemy, & its not your fellow pilots.

[Hand Solo]

Are you sure about your numbers Walnut? 20 new LH routes not only seems much higher than BA are estimating (only 20% of bmis original 56 slots were considered suitable for longhaul expansion), but they'd be literally years away and dependent on a favourable economic climate. Also you may require 10 crews for a long haul airframe but you've already got 5+ crews for the existing shorthaul airframe. Talk of huge expansion in pilot numbers is premature and they may never materialise.

[Tay Cough]

(only 20% of bmis original 56 slots were considered suitable for longhaul expansion)

True. However, BA already has a large number of slots which it currently uses for Shorthaul which can be used for Longhaul. Some rearrangement of the schedule will generate up to 20 more Longhaul services.

[pre3l2s]

If the completion date happens on 20 April, when will the bmi pilots DoJ be...the same date?

Thanks chaps

[max nightstop]

The bmi pilots' DoJ will be the same as it is now. Under a TUPE transfer there is deemed to be continuity of service so the DoJ remains unchanged.

[BusDriverLHR]

The bmi pilots' DoJ will be the same as it is now. Under a TUPE transfer there is deemed to be continuity of service so the DoJ remains unchanged.

I believe you are wrong. One of us will be disappointed.

[Say again s l o w l y]

Do you know what. I get the feeling that the BA crews are getting an awful lot more wound up about this than everyone in bmi.

As already said, most bmi crews are more interested in continuing to pay their mortgages rather than exactly where they end up in a damned seniority list.

[londonmet]

I agree Say again slowly. That said BA pilots are just wanting to maintain their place on the MSL which will happen but you know...people like a moan and a grumble!

[Cattivo]

Surely the DOJ for the BMI guys would be day one of their BA conversion courses like everyone else. Are they 'BA pilots' before the course? A genuine question btw.

[horatiobrowne]

I rarely post but read occasionally for entertainment, the bullets are certainly flying aren't they? The comments so far appear to suggest a rather toxic undercurrent

[max nightstop]

The BA MSL is not in DoJ order in a number of areas for a number of reasons. DoJ and seniority are not inextricably linked. The bmi pilots who join under a TUPE transfer will maintain their bmi DoJ for anything that uses a DoJ for reference.

The question referred to DoJ, so that answer was given. Unfortunately, some people seem unable to focus on anything other than their position on the seniority list, regardless of what it brings them. This is rather unimaginitive, rather short term and rather sad.

[Hand Solo]

Bmi pilots will retain their Bmi date of joining for TUPE purposes. That relates to severance, maternity pay, statutory rights, etc etc. Seniority lists are an entirely different proposition. Seniority lists are entirely unrelated to TUPE. TUPE protects, it doesn't enhance.

[look you]

...and it is worth noting that TUPE only applies to the new guys. It doesn't protect existing employees in the slightest.

[Cattivo]

Max Nightstop

Can you elaborate on which areas for those not in the know. The DEP contract states seniority position is based on your credited DoJ. I'm not disagreeing with you, I genuinely would like to know. I don't understand your pot shots at those interested in seniority position however, it dictates your quality of life. Ask the guys who've stagnated at the bottom of lists for the past 4 years.

[look you]

Cattivo,

I think different contracts have existed in the past and there are anomalies that exist for a number of reasons. If you ever see an MSL with DoJs on it, you'll see what I mean. It is no big deal, and all above board. It is possible that bmi pilots may end up at the bottom of the MSL, way above my pay grade, but their DoJ will remain their bmi, or indeed BMED DoJ.

The point about seniority numbers is that your actual number isn't terribly relevant. What counts is where you are relative to other people, how quickly that position changes and what it actually gives you.

For instance, would you rather be 50 out of 100, or 80 out of 200?

What about if the role of preference for you was at 30 in both airlines? Or you moved up 10 places a year in one and only 2 in the other? Then which would you choose? Your actual number means very little.

If a solution was found that increased your number by 50 places (ie
Downwards), but left you in the same, or higher, position as a percentage of the whole and moved you a few years closer to your goal, wouldn't that be a good thing? Where would it sit on the 'disadvantage' test?

Merging bmi's operation into BA, adjusting fleet profile and route network will adjust all the variables. There is so much more to look at than 'what number am I?"

Stagnation is a terrible situation for seniority based systems, with the retirement changes and lack of expansion it has affected several airlines badly. This merger, combined with the impending easing of the retirement bubble, should ease both of those stagnators.

[Count von Altibar]

There are complicated employment laws which need to be adhered to. As the companies are being merged together, the law requires the employees DoJ their original company to be respected as continuous service. Just like if BA merged into the Iberia pilot seniority list. They wouldn't expect to be shoved at the bottom like the BACC are planning here would they!?

When Bmed was merged with BMI the lists were merged together on DoJ with BALPA's direction.

[Super Stall]

Count, you can keep banging your drum over and over again but the reality of the situation is this is a BA/BMI integration. It has nothing to do with BMED/Iberia or any other merger that has gone before.

But you are correct on two counts: the law will be adhered to, BMI DOJ will be respected.

The BMI guys (whom I welcome wholeheartedly :D), will take their place at the bottom of the MSL. Their only choice is whether they do this 'with benefits' or without.

There will be no legal challenge!

Happy to re-visit this thread in a couple of weeks.:E:oh:

[757_Driver]

There are complicated employment laws which need to be adhered tocorrect, and most of the posts on here indicate a complete lack of understanding of what those laws are. Also most people also don't seem to understand that these issues are not black and white either.

As the companies are being merged togethernope, they aren't. The parent company of one company is buying the other company who would otherwise go bust within the month.


the law requires the employees DoJ their original company to be respected as continuous service.it probably does require that, and if it does I'm sure it will be respected where it needs to be, for statutary issues such as pensions, maternity, redundancy etc.

the rest of the stuff such as Seniority lists, contractural t's and c's, salary scales have nothing to do with DoJ and will be negotiated by both CC's.

[Count von Altibar]

No legal challenge, that's funny because it's ready to go at the sniff of ignorance to current employment laws which in recent years have changed significantly. Maybe you're not that up to date with what's come into force?

Anyhow, I'm not aware of union company councils making the contracts, that's what the BACC lead you to believe pre the 31st Jan vote. It'll be BA that'll be writing the music, not the union.

Whether the company would have gone bust or not and the timescale is no more relevant than the average daily maximum temperature in the Pitcairn Islands. Off to watch Newsnight, it's more interesting...

[Nevermind]

Count

The BA cc didn't lead us to believe anything back in January.
As I have mentioned to you previously, and you have chosen to ignore, the £10m savings pa given by BA pilots to make the takeover viable are subject to the BAcc being satisfied with the arrangements regarding seniority.

Do you think that we would have simply just taken a chance on it?

As Paxman might say, please answer the question.

[sudden twang]

Count you've yet to justify leapfrogging an ex bmi pilot who has an earlier DOJ bmi than you but a later DOJ BA.
How many pilots have left bmi to join BA at significant personal cost?
You cant compare Bmed/ bmi with bmi/ BA simply because it's not fair for a bmi pilot with a doj Pre 1989 taking an A380 command.
When you can justify this on this forum I may believe you can justify it in court.
If BA give you seniority on DOJ would they not also have to give you the comensurate payscale. Can you have number 100 on the list on less basic pay than number 101? I reckon this is what BA will think and will do everything to avoid it by finding an alternative solution.

Peculiarly by a strange quirk of fate the advantages to me of DOJ seniority v bottom of the MSL outweigh the disadvantages but I support what is fair.

[BusDriverLHR]

No legal challenge, that's funny because it's ready to go at the sniff of ignorance to current employment laws which in recent years have changed significantly.

If you think that 1) BA will endorse a solution that leaves them open to legal challenge and/or 2) that you/BMI pilots/BMI-CC have the financial resources to take them on even if they did, you're being a bit naive in my opinion.

Just like if BA merged into the Iberia pilot seniority list. They wouldn't expect to be shoved at the bottom like the BACC are planning here would they!?

If Iberia bought BA, and SEPLA wanted to stick me at the bottom of the Iberia MSL but offered me protections to maintain my current career prospects, I wouldn't have a problem with that. In fact, if BA was on the brink of bankruptcy and Iberia was merely interested in slots at LHR, I'd be delighted with that outcome.

[Count von Altibar]

Sudden twang. It is also irrelevant that somebody left BMI to join BA a few years ago and now might be 'leapfrogged' on the list. You pays your money and takes your choice as they say. It's not fair by any shape or means but with respect to IFALPA guidelines on seniority lists and mergers it doesn't bode well for them. I see where you're coming from, I had BMED pilots leapfrog me when BMI bought their operation which was also on the verge of bankruptcy. It initially makes you feel hard done by but with thought, I could come to terms with the collective benefit.

Reference Iberia and a potential bankrupt BA merger. It's also irrelevant the financial state of BA in this hypothetical situation with respect to the seniority outcome of the merged lists. You wouldn't be put at the bottom of the list just to be a grateful pilot to have a job. It's the law folks, if you'd bought BMI for £1 after it become insolvent it would be different. Times have changed since the Dan Air debacle, you must learn to adapt.

You will benefit in terms of shortened time to command, increased prosperity for the company in turn leading to better job security and a share in the fiscal dividends. Why the draconian attempt at a one-sided pre-nuptial? It's doomed to fail. As I've mentioned before, the man that uttered the phrase 'no BA pilot will be disadvantaged' wasn't thinking straight. It's simply not possible with the merger of airline seniority lists.

[moo]

and so what then, Count, if bmi pilots are zipped into the BA seniority list would THEY be sacrificing? Bearing in mind they would therefore be joining a solvent company with decent prospects, full staff travel with original DOJ, protected pay, commands, private healthcare, access to 747/777/A380/787, one of the largest and most diverse route networks of any airline, a bidding system that affords amazing life control, an increasing payscale, an LHR base, a market leading pension scheme, a bonus scheme that pays out, a pilot only share reward scheme, an electronic rostering system that allows trip swaps, sector swaps, trips to be dropped, overtime to be picked up with the click of a mouse, etc etc etc

In fact, would there be any sacrifice at all on the part of the BMI pilots? The BA pilots are 10 million down.

It's just that if the above were the case, you would be having penny and the bun, and bizarrely, that doesn't sit too well with around 3300 people.

[bad bear]

Seems to be a bit of thread creep here !

However, I am curious as to what is being offered to the BM pilots.
Can anyone who actually knows post it here? Not just the headlines the details.
ie When will the 10-15 year F/Os get commands?
How will their short haul bidding be protected ?
Where will they fit in to bid line?
Where will they join the pay scale and how do they progress up the pay scale?
Will BMI captains and F/Os continue to fly long haul as they do at present?
If the A330 fleet is retired and replaced by another type will BM pilots retrain on to the new type
Will BM pilots be paid as medium haul pilots?
Will they retain the 56 max 28 min days roster notice?
Will they still get leave based on length of seniority?
Will they still know their leave for Xmas in May?

In fact has anything at all been offered or is it just floating ideas at this stage with nothing solid on offer?

Back to the tread, should BALPA change its name to clearly reflect the pilot groups it represents and distance itself from the letters BA...

[Hand Solo]

As I've said to the Count a number of times, park the Bmi pilots on a standalone sub-fleet and there's no legal challenge. The law is complied with and if they choose to throw their own money down the drain trying to sue BA for something the law doesn't entitle them to more fools them.

[sudden twang]

Count,
Yep they paid their money and made a choice as you say.
Have a quick perusal of the transcript of BASSA v BA and rethink the ex bmi guys being irrelevant all sorts of factors came out.

It's time to pay YOUR money and take your choice again then to verbalise that stance to BA. All the information , advice , advatages and risks are on here for you to do that. :ok:

[Airclues]

Hand Solo

The danger of a standalone sub-fleet is that IAG might decide to form a standalone airline ( "British Airways Express" ?). Being on a lower cost base they would then only recruit into this new airline and gradually transfer routes to it.
IAG would then have two disparate groups of pilots that they could play off against each other. Allowing the Bmi pilots onto the MSL with a fair, negotiated, agreement between the two pilot groups would give you a much stronger position in any future disputes with IAG. To force the Bmi pilots to join at the bottom would cause years of resentment and infighting which would play into the hands of the IAG beancounters.

[gatbusdriver]

one lot without hats maybe?

[Hand Solo]

The IAG/BA-light decision has already been taken. It wasn't the BACC who lobbied IAG to integrate bmi, it was BA. The BACCs concessions merely helped BA win the argument at IAG board level. BA management don't want a cuckoo in the nest either. To force the BA-light option back on to the table the bmi employees would have to convince IAG they had a better business plan than BA! Bmi will be integrated into BA. All that's up for discussion is the degree if integration, or not, of the Bmi pilots into the BA MSL. The Bmi integration can take place, delivering all the benefits to BA, without ever integrating the Bmi pilots. Non-integration of pilots is the cheapest and preferred option for BA. The Bmi CC can work with the BACC to drive for integration or they can carry on kidding themselves that they'll be able to negotiate anything other than a bare bones TUPE from BA, with disastrous consequences for any Bmi FO with command aspirations.

[xwindflirt]

So you freely admit that if bmi pilots don't do it your way they will be prejudiced in any merger scenario?

[Hand Solo]

No. They'll keep what they have now, which is precisely what TUPE requires. TUPE doesnt protect widebody fkying or command aspirations.

There are too many people here who don't know where the battle lines have been drawn. There are also too many people who haven't realised what a precarious position bmi and its staff are in, how little protection the law will provide them, and how determined BA are to stick to their promise that bmi's cost base will not rise post-merger. They need to either get with the program and pursue economies of scale, or stand alone and be exposed to BA's cost-cutting zeal.

[Hand Solo]

The bmi/BMed merger is not relevant. You are entirely missing the point that BA is not obliged to merge the two pilot seniority lists. It can easily run the bmi list as a standalone fleet. I doubt bmi could do that with the BMed merger. BA can run this whole show without any input from BALPA whatsoever. See the wood, not the trees.

[757_Driver]

read what hand solo said again.

BA do not HAVE to merge the lists. BMI can operate as a standalone fleet, with TUPE allowances and not a penny more.

The previous BA / BACC ballot had 2 very strong red lines. BA said "NO COST INCREASE FROM BMI CURRENT COST" - that means you ain't gonna get teh BA paypoint or senioroity. thats a clear position from BA and IAG, not from the BACC.
BACC said "no ba pilot to be disadvantaged", thats a bit more nebulous, but fairly clear too - and the 10 million savings get thrown back off the table if thats not met.

I have no idea about employment law, and neither do 99.99999% of people on here. I would imagine that if you forced a merger of the lists, you would probably have to do it in an equitable manner - but thats not gonna happen. My view is that either BMI DECIDE to join that list at a negotiated and agreed position, or they don't join it at all, there is going to be nothing forced about it. Thats a completely diffreent kettle of fish from previous positions.

[Human Factor]

So you freely admit that if bmi pilots don't do it your way they will be prejudiced in any merger scenario?

First, it is not "our" way (I presume you mean the BACC), it is IAG's way.

Second, the future of BMI pilots will not be prejudiced in any way. The least the BMI pilots will get is TUPE which legally guarantees they will not be disadvantaged in any way. Incidentally, this is the same TUPE which legally guarantees that existing BA pilots will not be disadvantaged either, which will no doubt be why the BACC chairman continues to refer to the phrase.

However, if the "least" is all that BMI pilots wish to see (current BMI T&Cs on a ringfenced fleet), please don't engage with the BACC. If you want more than that, start talking. ;)


...and be exposed to BA's cost-cutting zeal.

Believe me, having been through many years of this, they're very good at it.:eek:

[Megaton]

BALPA isn't perfect but we've seen how our more militant colleagues in BASSA/Unite have fared over the last few years and it hasn't been pretty. Even if some BMI pilots do leave BALPA in a fit of pique over their new terms and conditions, the effect will be much less than 3000+ disaffected BA pilots. Join RMT by all means and watch your Ts & Cs wither.

[Human Factor]

A lower cost outfit operating side by side, that is pandoras box for BA pilots!

No.

That one has been taken care of by the binding vote taken by the BA pilots who have agreed to make efficiency savings to ensure this won't be a threat. In return for those ongoing savings, BA have agreed that there will be no further recruitment to the BMI entity, therefore Pandora's box is permanently closed.

The unrest and costs generated by reneging on this deal would be significantly greater than those saved by expanding the BMI entity. As a result, I don't believe that the £10m figure is arbitrary.

[stormin norman]

'Will they still know their leave for Xmas in May?

Spare a thought for those BMI staff who will have no job at all at the end of this process, never mind leave.

[skip.rat]

[QUOTE]The previous BA / BACC ballot had 2 very strong red lines. BA said "NO COST INCREASE FROM BMI CURRENT COST" - that means you ain't gonna get teh BA paypoint or senioroity. thats a clear position from BA and IAG, not from the BACC./QUOTE]
The bit about Paypoints has been understood, in my opinion; the bit about seniority seems a little less clear - how would (assuming an agreement between the CCs was reached) it matter one jot to BA/IAG? It's been quoted to death on this forum that seniority & DOJ are not as closely related as some might think - why would there be an implicit cost to the airline if Joe Bloggs was No. 100 or 1000 on the list?

Also, with reference to the post above from Bad Bear, I would echo the desire to know the details of the two options that the bmi pilots will need to choose between (if the many posts on this subject on this & the BALPA forums are correct).

Some of which are:

The 'joining the bottom of the list' option -
What would be your DOJ?
What would be your PP? (would existing salary be maintained until your PP caught up?

The 'Ring fenced' option -
Does the 'ring fenced' group move up over time w.r.t. position on the MSL for bidline, etc?

[Super Stall]

I honestly believe this whole episode could have been avoided with a little bit of expectation management.

This could have been presented to BMI pilots as a huge win for all (financial secure airline, fleets, bidding, rock solid rostering, dodging the job loss bullet). Instead, for reasons I cannot fathom, somebody somewhere in BMI has raised expectations to stratospheric levels.

This realigning of perspectives is causing some anger and foot stamping but to be honest your CC should have begun this process earlier.

Trust me, the BACC is VERY proactive in bringing BA members down to earth when needed. We don't always like the message but it needs to be said all the same.

BA do not make idol threats. They will not hesitate in sidelining a group of employees at the first sign of trouble (look no further than BASSA). They can do without the agro and will be absolutely certain on their legal position.

I suggest the BMICC take the helping hand offered before they enter the lions den.

[Human Factor]

The bit about Paypoints has been understood, in my opinion; the bit about seniority seems a little less clear - how would (assuming an agreement between the CCs was reached) it matter one jot to BA/IAG? It's been quoted to death on this forum that seniority & DOJ are not as closely related as some might think - why would there be an implicit cost to the airline if Joe Bloggs was No. 100 or 1000 on the list?

I would imagine that if the legal position would mean that if a BMI pilot were to join at 100 on the seniority list, therefore reflecting BMI length of service, BA would therefore also have to recognise that from a pay point of view, which is what they want to avoid. This is largely moot anyway as TUPE does not require this.

Also, with reference to the post above from Bad Bear, I would echo the desire to know the details of the two options that the bmi pilots will need to choose between (if the many posts on this subject on this & the BALPA forums are correct).

Some of which are:

The 'joining the bottom of the list' option -
What would be your DOJ?
What would be your PP? (would existing salary be maintained until your PP caught up?

The 'Ring fenced' option -
Does the 'ring fenced' group move up over time w.r.t. position on the MSL for bidline, etc?


Unfortunately, all of the above will also be moot unless the BMICC and BACC engage before talking to BA. If common sense comes to pass, what is likely is something akin to the following. Please do not take this as gospel:

Your DoJ for seniority purposes will be an arbitrary date. For example, 1st June 2012. Your BMI seniority will reflect the order in which you "join" on this date. i.e. the most senior BMI pilot will be top of the pile.

You will notionally be on pp1 for your seat however, your will retain your current BMI pay (TUPE) until your BA paypoint overtakes it.

The "ring fenced" option as discussed here is your worst option. In essence you will retain your BMI T&Cs related to TUPE and that is it. You will not be on a MSL "in order to progress upwards upon over time". This is why you need to engage with the BACC.

There are a number of points which can be negotiated upon (for example, perhaps monthly bidding rights or access to "BMI commands") but that relies entirely upon BMI reps having a sensible discussion with BACC reps before they go together with a plan to BA.

Does anyone see a pattern forming here? :ooh:

[Super Stall]

Skiprat,

how would (assuming an agreement between the CCs was reached) it matter one jot to BA/IAG? It's been quoted to death on this forum that seniority & DOJ are not as closely related as some might think - why would there be an implicit cost to the airline if Joe Bloggs was No. 100 or 1000 on the list?

Because the 'no BA pilot disadvantaged' position enabled BA to secure £10m in savings from the pilots. That and the fact it doesn't want to anger 3,300 employees.

[Say again s l o w l y]

If anyone needs proof of the self-serving nature of pilots and the "I'm alright jack" attitude which has decimated the T and C's of everyone thanks to PTF and other such awful things, just read this thread.

There's some interesting things here, but an awful lot of vitriol and rhetoric bubbling beneath the surface.

It doesn't bode well.

[Count von Altibar]

Sadly for you guys the BMICC isn't taking the helping hand before they enter the den, they'll be talking directly to BA management as they've got virtually nowhere in negotiations with the BACC. This mess will be sorted by BALPA head office/BA management hopefully with a more reasonable BACC.

[stakeknife]

It looks like another American West / US Air Battle of lists.

[Super Stall]

'There are none so deaf as those who will not hear'

Back in two weeks.

[BitMoreRightRudder]

Sadly for you guys the BMICC isn't taking the helping hand before they enter the den, they'll be talking directly to BA management as they've got virtually nowhere in negotiations with the BACC

I'm going to predict you will be very disappointed with the outcome. Good luck all the same.

[160til4]

Just as a thought to all who (quite rightly in my view) say that BALPA should represent all pilots equally. Well if the views, rights, aspirations and expectations of each pilot were given equal weighting regarding the resolution of BMI/BA seniority lists post integration/merger, then would not the wish of the many (3000+) naturally outweigh those of the few (300+)? If the wishes of the 10% rode roughshod over those of the 90%, then where is fairness, equal representation and union democracy? Just making the point, as some seem to have the view that if they don`t get what they want, then BALPA must be biased towards BA pilots when in fact they may be demonstrably treating all equally? Ten to one is a big ratio to balance!
Also, as the threat of legal action is being raised by some, could someone please tell me if the seniority system per se has ever been challenged (successfully or otherwise)?

[skip.rat]

Because the 'no BA pilot disadvantaged' position enabled BA to secure £10m in savings from the pilots. That and the fact it doesn't want to anger 3,300 employees.
Jeez, trying to extract facts here is like trying to pull teeth!

-Read the post! the thrust of that statement assumed an agreement between the CCs. I'm not approaching this from an emotive stance, I merely would like to form a picture of the two scenarios likely to be offered. Whichever option is chosen needs to be done with a full spread of the facts, which are sadly lacking. Is it any surprise that emotions will start to run high in an information vacuum? (oh, and another question - will it be an individual or the whole pilot group that chooses, or votes for whichever option?)

[stakeknife]

This has been looked at by Balpa and a MSL is open to legal challenge in any company in this scenario. No guarantee of either side winning but I do know the NEC will probably have to make the call on what is deemed 'correct' and not on what favours what group.

Btw, I am not involved in either group but hv bn involved in looking into such scenarios. Good luck to all involved.

[9 minutes to landing]

Everyone keeps talking about TUPE, but the one thing that has not been mentioned is that the Transfer of Undertakings may not apply if a company can prove an Economic or Commercial reason why it should not apply.

Don't assume TUPE will be a part of this merger - i wouldn't put it past the world's favorite to use either clause!

[Jumpjim]

Stakenife, if you replace the word "Seniority" with "Loyalty" and BA now have a master loyalty list reflecting employees dedication to the company over the last few decades, with their "Loyalty" number reflecting time served, I think you'll find it is entirely ALLOWABLE under current employment law, and a legal challenge would be dubious at best.

BA's MSL, or MLL if you prefer,doesn't discriminate on age as we have all age groups at every stage of flying within BA. What legal basis would you have for challenging it?

[Juan Tugoh]

Steady on City Flyer this thread is not a place for calm reasoned thought!

[Anton du Flasheart]

City Flyer
You obviously are not someone with 24 years employment with the same employer, being transfered to another and being told that you have the same worth a a new joiner. Or, possibly being told that you will NEVER have another pay rise in your remaining career ( which could be another 20 years ).
It can look a lot like constructive dismissal from another angle.
Furthermore, the subsequent company will be a COMBINATION of the 2 merged companied NOT just BA. BA must consider aspects of bmi valueable, because they have made an effort to obtain it - they were not being charitable - therefore whether some gave loyalty to one part or another of that combination, it was still LOYALTY to the combined company. Why should some have their loyalty completely ignored?

[Juan Tugoh]

Furthermore, the subsequent company will be a COMBINATION of the 2 merged companied NOT just BA. BA must consider aspects of bmi valueable, because they have made an effort to obtain it - they were not being charitable - therefore whether some gave loyalty to one part or another of that combination, it was still LOYALTY to the combined company. Why should some have their loyalty completely ignored?

If all the above is true, what of the loyalty of the Regional and Baby Pilots? they are surplus to requirements, as far as BA is concerned, so is their loyalty to BMI now an irrelevance?

The fact is that the slots are valuable to BA nothing more. BA is only taking over a company losing £200million a year for the potential in the slots, not because a small proportion of the workforce, of a failed competitor, has some intrinsic value to BA. BA are certainly not being charitable - nor do they need to start being so now by increasing the expense of a group of workers from a failed rival.

This may be dressed up in many ways but it is a takeover, the BA name, brand and ethos will continue and BMI's name, brand and failed ethos will be consigned, like BCal and Dan-Air to nostalgia. It will not be a combined company, it will be BA with some new workers that have to come to terms with the BA way.

I am not sure how your loyalty to a competitor has any relevance to BA and in fact rather than it justifying a mergers seniority list it tends to add weight to the argument that BMI pilots should go to the bottom of the BA MSL. Length of continuous service is not a matter of debate as it it clearly protected legally.

You will need to come up with some clearer and more cogent argument than the one outlined above.

Perhaps it would be more worthy of us all if we were to concentrate on what happens to our colleagues in Regional and Baby, rather than this childish and unseemly jockeying for petty personal advantage.

[Hand Solo]

Anton - you seem understandably disappointed, but perhaps you should reflect on the fact that your disappointment is caused by your employer being broke and unable to fulfill your career expectations. That's harsh, but it's also life. BA/IAG don't owe you anything, and they are buying bmi for the slots and the slots alone. Expecting to carry on as if nothing has changed is denying reality.

[160til4]

I answer to Anton`s concern ;-
"Or, possibly being told that you will NEVER have another pay rise in your remaining career ( which could be another 20 years )"
Correct me if I`m wrong, but I understood BMI had a 12 year payscale. So if a Capt for 12 years (which I guess you must be after 24 years in BM/BMI?), then how were you ever going to get another incremental paypoint rise at BMI? The most that you could have hoped for would have been a general RPI type of pay rise, for the rest of your career. However, given the dire financial state of the company, it is more likely that you would have had a paycut imposed! So in what way, in regards of pay, are you being disadvantaged by joining a relatively secure company on a 34 point payscale, with your present salary protected until reaching the equivalent on that scale, then rising with it? And a much more realistic prospect of at least RPI increases in the meantime?

On a different note, concerning your view of your "worth after 24 years continuous service" in comparison to a "newcomer" . Many "newcomers" to BA also have extensive careers prior to BA, often as Capts, TRI`s, airforce standards instructors etc. How on earth can you make a judgement on your "worth" compared to theirs? Your 24 years in BMI is mainly a measure of your loyalty to that Company combined with choice or circumstance precluding a move elsewhere.

[Anton du Flasheart]

Well... it seems that I provoked some controversial comments!!!
I was countering CityFlyers comments not expressing a fully coherent opinion of my own ( I'm not a 24 year long employee of bmi ) - if you want that it will take more than the space here.
However to start with....... Fundamentally I think that flightdeck are their own worst enemies by clinging on to the bizaar system of Seniority lists in the first place. It restricts mobility of employment and market place values being reached and many other negatives ( not least the ability of employers to manipulate ).
BA is not Gods gift to pilots and bmi was never a cess pool - pilots are pilots and employers should pay and respect according to the value of the service they are purchasing. Employers are generally callous money grabbers nowadays and would happily dump the most loyal if the thought they'd gain a buck.

[Ancient Observer]

If this takeover does lead to legal challenges about "Seniority" I believe that it will form the first realistic challenge to the whole seniority house of cards in Aviation.
Bring on the challenge. Seniority is a disgraceful con used by lazy TUs and even lazier managers.

[160til4]

Hi Anton,

I fully agree with what you say. The seniority system is clearly flawed, but as many others have said, with what system would we replace it?
Regarding IAG`s purchase of BMI, the harsh reality is that they only wanted the slots to enable expansion at LHR. As a business their aim is simply to generate the highest revenue from the use of those slots whilst keeping the cost side as low as possible.And they have clearly stated that "BMI unit costs will not be allowed to increase".
That said, the point remains that on the issue of pay, then there will be no disadvantage whatsoever for the ex BMI guys. More a much better chance of future pay increases. So complaints of "no pay rise for the rest of my career" are clearly baseless in fact.

[BusDriverLHR]

And here we have yet another tedious recurrence of the 'seniority's not fair, it must be illegal' rant. The basic premise of seniority is perfectly fair. There's also a very good chance that it would stand up to scrutiny in court. It would certainly take very deep pockets to even attempt to prove otherwise, with absolutely no guarantee that the outcome would be in your favour.



What has become clear over the past 12 pages is that we will never reach agreement on what a 'fair' integration of BMI pilots into BA should look like.

It is also clear that BA pilots/BACC feel that the best result for BMI pilots can be achieved with agreement between the two CCs and a joint approach to dealing with BA management.
The BMI pilots/BMI-CC (unhappy with proposals tabled by the BACC) feel that they can negotiate a better deal if they 'consult' with BA on their own.

It appears that no amount of debate here is going to change the viewpoint of either side.

Will the BMI-CC will be in for a rude awakening when the come to 'consult' with BA management or will they come out with a better deal than the BACC proposed fighting for?

We shall see soon....

[160til4]

In reply to onedollar`s comment "good and fair management" Well therin lies the problem, Such an ideal is sadly a rarity! No other business or industry has the same system as in some ways aviation is unique. There are a minimum of two pilots in a commercial aircraft. One Captain, one First Officer. Both have the same qualification for the job. So how is it decided who has which seat? And aircraft type, bases etc?
Just to hope for "good and fair management" to resolve these and other issues is very optimistic at best.

[Anton du Flasheart]

RE: what other way is there?
How do Doctors manage? We are tested again and again and again ( sometimes with less than absolute objectivity ), so we ought to have, at least, a base line!

[Hand Solo]

It's all well and good complaining that seniority isn't fair (I might even agree) but it won't be germane to this debate, which will be settled long before anyone from Bmi see's the inside of a courtroom.

Likewise, people can grumble about BALPAs advice re the bmi/BMed merger but it has no bearing on the BA/bmi takeover. You can gripe with BALPA about it, it won't be influencing the BACC or BA pilots.

[757_Driver]

RE: what other way is there?
How do Doctors manage?

doctors manage the same way as all other professions - their promotions are based on sucking up to the head honcho, what your golf score is and how much you are prepared to 'go the extra mile'.

Ive spent 15 years in a previous career where that was the case, and 5 years in an airline where you were expected to "do a favour" for the company in order to get anywhere. I don't want to go back there, so I quite like seniority thank you very much. As I expect do most people who have actually experienced the alternative.

A previous poster had it bang on - BMI need to get their stuff together and work our where the wriggle room is and what really can, and needs, to be negotiated, rather than banging on about a seniority pipe dream thats not going to happen.
The best lawyers / negotiators / salespeople / bankers etc are the best because they don't ask for things they are clearly not going to get, they know where the negotiating battlefield is and they know where they can and can't push.

As for the legal challenges - well good luck. I have no idea what the outcome will be, however I can pretty much guarantee that I will be retired by the time its resolved (and i've got 23 years left to go!), and those challenging it will be broke. . Even fairly obvious black and white employment law issues take 5 years to go through the system.

[Max Angle]

It would certainly take very deep pockets to even attempt to prove otherwise,Only if the company you challenge over it decides to defend the action, it is entirely possible they wouldn't.

[Anton du Flasheart]

Or perhaps we could all work for the common good rather than selfish self interest....... oh did really say that? I must have been dreaming - sorry :-D

[757_Driver]

What, in this situation, would you call "the common good"?

Certainly, what you think would be great for the BMI pilots, would be a huge disadvantage and a kick in the teeth for me - so why should I defend that?

Everyone will, by nature, defend their own interests, people who talk about "the common good" usually only do it to defend their own position.

[Say again s l o w l y]

There will be winners and losers on both "sides" (it pains me to call it that, but it seems as if the battle lines are already being drawn) in any solution to this.

The best result is that both sides feel slightly miffed, but not put upon. Pragmatism dictates that you don't want to thoroughly annoy either "side."

All it requires is for both the BACC and bmiCC to be adult about this and not act like spoilt children. However, going by some of the responses on here so far, I'm not so sure that will happen...

[bad bear]

757 driver, in a list of 3300 pilots, where do you fit in? (within 10%) and why do you think all the BMI guys and girls should fit in below you and not even a percentage above you? Surely moving 360 places up a list that grows to 3660 is slightly greedy?

[Bengerman]

I have been in BA for 24 years, I see the benefits that I get from that, lifestyle, pay, an element of control over my work etc as reward for my contribution to the current success and future prosperity of the company. For this reason I do not see a seniority list integration as an option.

I have no doubt whatsoever that BMI pilots are as professional and committed as any, I am sure that they will enhance the operation at BA, I hope they will enjoy the benefits that working for BA can bring, I also hope that they go on to give sterling service to BA and reap the rewards for that, but up to now they have served BMI, not BA.

The veiled, and otherwise, threats of legal challenges will have the lawyers rubbing their hands with glee, but will do nothing to assist ANY pilot from ANY workforce.

It has been said before on this forum, and in other places, the real problem will be the management of expectations from those who believe their future employer is going to present them with a world of long haul fantasy when you are going to be in the world of shorthaul reality.........whatever seats you are used to.

[757_Driver]

try right at the bottom (within 10%). I'm merely stating my "selfish self interest view" as it was called in a post above. BMICC are pushing their view and BACC are pushing their view.

Had BA not bought BMI any growth in the company would be below me on the list- 100% of BMI pilots have a BMI DOJ significnatly above me. So personally I would be screwed by them all jumping onto the list - that's my view and my position.

I am of an age where the only command I will see at BA will be shorthaul so even if all 300 people only go onto the airbus in DOJ order it still affects me greatly an I really don't see why I should be ashamed of defending my own interests. The only difference between me and alot of other people is that I am happy to openly and publicly defend my interests and not engage in a bunch of backstabbing and politics.

I wish all BMI pilots well and I hope they all get good job security out of all this, but they are legally entitled to join BA with their TUPE entitlements - which absolutely does not include any right to be on the MSL at all, let alone in their DOJ position, or with any rights to any of the other bidline stuff, bidding for other fleets etc etc. anything else is all subject to negotiation - The BMI guys will state their reasons for wanting what they want, I, and everyone else in BA will state theirs. A balance will be found with some winners and some losers. Every group of people will be more or less affected by some elements of the takeover - being at the bottom of the list I am hugely affected by the seniority issues. Even the TUPE issues of LIFO and staff travel affect me - as I will be below all the BMI guys for LIFO redundancy calculation in a company that is significantly more at risk than it was last week, having just taken on a 200 million pound millstone.
Medium to long term I think we can all see the benefits of this, but short term there are some issues that need to be resolved.

[Anton du Flasheart]

757,
Pleased to a little more balanced view coming out. :D

One thing I don't understand though......the prevailing BA view seems to be that all bmi pilots will want to chase LH seats, why? I know that the middle east is too far for many of them - they will not threaten a LH seat in any way.
Not everyone regards 747 LH as the pinicle of a career. I think that there may be an easier middle ground than some think if only there can be some mutual respect.

[BA_Baracas]

I don't believe that for a second.

A load of the Cityflyer guys said the exact same thing Anton, and most (I'm guessing about 80%ish, but willing to be corrected) are now co pilots on LH.

It remains to be seen, but I'd be willing to bet the same thing will happen with the bmi guys despite what you say. Most of the bmi guys I'm guessing won't have done much LH, and it's safe to say that BA longhaul is very different to what the others will have done in bmi.

[160til4]

Anton,

If the majority of BMI guys don`t want a longhaul command at BA then why all the fuss and veiled threats of legal action if they are not parachuted into the msl in a postion to be eligible for such commands? You can`t have it both ways.!
Another way of looking at a seniority list is as a queue. Many of us have waited many years in BA for our "turn" to come. Why should, in all fairness, that be put possibly completely out of reach for me in my remaining career with BA (and all that means for take home pay, pension etc), by several hundred ex-Bmi guys effectively queue-jumping ahead?
And the oft quoted mantra of "all sharing in the future growth" may make a good soundbite, but it is expectation only at this time and several years away at least from realisation. Of course, any shock to the airline industry could see such expectations pushed many more years from fruition. Way past my retirement freeze window.
So yes, of course I expect the BMI cc to do the best for those it represents. But let`s be honest. There is no solution that will suit everyone, or pass each individual`s personal "fairness" test.
One more point. Talk of being"stuck at the bottom of the list" makes as much sense as saying "being stuck at BMI". ie a perfectly good position to be in dressed up as "unfainess".

[Airclues]

Could the purchase of BCAL by BA provide a precedence? In 1988 BA paid £250m for BCAL. The MMC and EU insisted that BA gave up 5000 annual slot pairs at LGW (approx 14/day). The seniority lists were combined, with the BCAL pilots slotting in to the BA list using their BCAL DOJ.

[757_Driver]

Anton. With all due respect to my BMI colleagues. Flying a narrow body, wheezy A321 to a ****hole in africa or the near east to stay for 48 hours, is NOT longhaul.
I think i'm in 7th heaven on the 767 but even that isn't real "BA" longhaul. Once the BMI guys see what is on offer at BA LH lifestyle-wise you will get flattened in the stampeed to join the LH fleets. And if they don't want longhaul then why all this fuss to join the top of the list?

I really think BMICC are better off negotiating the details around resonable expectations, rather than following a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. Lets not forget in the mean time that BMI are pissing 1 million A DAY, down the toilet, so IAG aren't going to sit around negotiatig details for very long. Its in everyones interest that this is solved quickly and reasonably.

[Say again s l o w l y]

Ahem. It's 1/2 a million a day.

Don't worry though, once we're all part of BA, we'll have the place licked into shape soon enough. No need to thank us.

[Anton du Flasheart]

Well I hoped that there was a little moderation! I was trying to hold out a friendly hand and you just bit it!
To make it clear - I, for one, have flown as long haul as you can fly. It is NOT all it is cracked up to be, and there is no agreement for service that could change that.
To correct another mis illusion - when bmi started flying BMed routes there was extreme negativity - it soon changed - min night stoppers soon changed to max just for the chance to go to a '**** hole'. Mid haul is a best kept secret - make no mistake.
If you hate them so much perhaps you could arrange a danger money bonus for me to continue flying to '**** holes'. Problem solved!
"And if they don't want longhaul then why all this fuss to join the top of the list?" is indeed my point.
I am by no means an exception. Although I accept that there is a significant proportion who would appreciate LH, it is a long long way for ALL.

[babybaby]

Flying a narrow body, wheezy A321 to a ****hole in africa or the near east to stay for 48 hours, is NOT longhaul.


And beyond!

Longhaul has many definitions.

Moscow might seem an odd one to bmi pilots. What were the BHX-JFK and GLA-JFK 757 ops classed as? And if the A321 is a "wheezy narrowbody" what do you call a 32 seater A318 doing 7 hour transatlantics?

An A321 may seem an odd plane to take long distance but it burns a fraction of the wide-bodies. Look how many American carriers now regularly use 757s out of Heathrow.

Not intended to fan the flames but to fly from London to the border of China, nightstop 24h or 48h, and do the return is hardly a shorthaul op is it?

[ScotPilot]

It would certainly take very deep pockets to even attempt to prove otherwise, with absolutely no guarantee that the outcome would be in your favour.

I am not advocating it goes down the legal route but I do not think it would take very deep pockets to make the legal challenge. It will only take one person, BALPA member or not to have a punt at it. Most people have legal protection on their house insurance. I would bet a fiver that it would be good enough to get the legal ball rolling.

[Narrow Runway]

What is a "mis illusion"?

Is that another load of :mad: Rather like the "Big Society Bank" (free hand outs to housing societies and lesbian child minders)? Or "Negative Equity" (debt)?

Just wondering. Or is it quoted in the BMI Ops Manual Part "A"?

[Sygyzy]

There's no moderation needed. BMI is bankrupt, skint, an ex-parrot, bought for the slots it owns-nothing more. The BA pilot force have given all they should (£10million in savings) to stop BMI being fed to the wolves. BA management are a clever bunch. BACC know this very well but have always taken the middle ground and told the pilots it represents the (sometimes) unpalatable truth. Consequently BA still has the best lifestyle/rewards around.

If BMICC don't heed these warnings and take their wish list to BA they'll soon find out that in this game BA own both the bat and the ball.

Bcal in '88 were integrated into the MSL on the ratio of the pilots they brought in. What a whining lot they turned out to be-even though captains stayed on salary but were in the RHS and the F/O's were able to bid onto anything they wished for.

757Driver has it about right. If one pilot joins above him on the MSL he's being disadvantaged in large measure by virtue of the seniority system that rules BA pilot's lives. More joining above however 'democratically' adjusted simply makes matters worse . He's already going to lose out in the staff travel arena if original BMI DOJ applies without shoving the broom even further.

BMI should be thankful they're still employed and if they don't like the new Terms & Conditions, perhaps they could discuss it with their colleagues at BMIr or BMIb and see if anyone would care to swap positions.

[757_Driver]

Anton - don't get stressed, my tongue is firmly in my cheek.
I was merely making the point that you said that many BMI pilots won't want LH as their current MH is not their cup of tea. BA LH is a world apart from BMI MH and most, if not all, will jump at the chance to do it. Why do you think there are many 747 FO's in BA who could have an A320 command right near the top of the list?

I've also flown to many of the BMI Sh**tholes in my previous airline and there are a few of them I never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever want to see again!

Longhaul isn't just about distance. I've done the BMI "border of china" route in a 757 and it is a "long" flight. However the operation is a world apart from BA longhaul. I'm only just getting to grips with how good it is flying Longhaul in BA and what I get on the 767 is a fraction of whats available.
And FWIW I will hapily give you danger money to keep those routes! And I'll keep mine thanks! :ok:

[gatbusdriver]

quick question from a lurker.

is the £10m often quoted, partly due to pp34 or independent of?

[BusDriverLHR]

What is basically happening here is BMI pilots are coming along and saying "Hello, we've just arrived and we'd like to skip the queue for LH, is that ok?". The reply from BA pilots is " sorry, No, that's not going to happen". The result - we're being branded as selfish/childish/unreasonable etc...

Let's be brutally honest. This takeover is only possible because BA is a profitable, successful company. One of the fundamental reasons that is the case is that (through an intelligent, reasonable and realistic BACC) we have taken one cut after another to our T&Cs to ensure OUR company is in a strong position going forward. A significant number of pilots at BA have left good jobs at other companies (BMI included) to enable them contribute and hence be a part of BA's successful future and all that that holds.

What's being proposed here is an opportunistic attempt from BMI pilots to secure career progression that they never could have dreamed of had their company actually been financially viable. I know quite a number of people who have worked for companies that were far more successful than BMI, yet they were made redundant and have ended up scattered all over the globe. BMI pilots work for an absolute financial basket case of a company yet they are being allowed to retain their current T&Cs and career prospects at a London base. I don't begrudge them this but they need to realise that they are very lucky to do so. We have a hold pool full pilots (many with decades of experience) who have busted their asses to try and join BA SH PP1 - yet BMI pilots are going to join ahead of them and potentially see them time-out in the hold pool. There are quite a few people who would see that as unfair.

There will ultimately be new opportunities generated when BA converts some of the ex-BMI slots to longhaul - but those opportunities will have been earned and paid for by BA pilots. Hence BA pilots will have first bite of the cherry.

Sorry to be blunt but this 'hard done by' attitude being portrayed by some of the luckiest pilots in the UK is ridiculous.

P.S. - if given BMI DOJ, 95%+ of ex-BMI pilots would be bidding for 777/747 ASAP. Pretty much fact.

[gatbusdriver]

fact or pretty much fact?

[moo]

I'd say fact. It certainly looks that way if you look at the seniority number you need to achieve RHS L/H. Approx 2700 as of last year. There are very few pilots above this seniority no. that remain on S/H. Those that do, do so for personal reasons i.e. young family, prefer life control, but they are certainly in the minority. The bidpacks issued every month on Airbus & 737 fleets confirm these numbers, this is not merely my opinion, it is indeed FACT. Once people complete their 5 year engagement freeze, almost everyone bids for 747/777.

[BMed Boy]

Fairness depends on what side of the fence you are, many people are not interested in fairness just getting what the law decrees they are due, although to certain extent TUPE deals with fairness. A few BMI pilots will have flown 320 in BA colours years ago when they were with BMed on the franchise. The pilots are just the pawns, the game is getting the best you can for yourself.
Should there be too many pilots at the end of this then redundancies should come proportionately from current BA as well as BMI pilots, now that will be interesting as LIFO is probably illegal too!

[BusDriverLHR]

Should there be too many pilots at the end of this then redundancies should come proportionately from current BA as well as BMI pilots, now that will be interesting as LIFO is probably illegal too!



Is that a joke???

I really don't want to see redundancies at the end of this. I'd even entertain a temporary pay-cut to carry a surplus of pilots until they are required. But if redundancies are required, there is no room for discussion on where they will come from.

No BA pilot will be losing their job to protect the job of someone who chose to remain working for BMI right until the bitter end. Redundancies will be actioned from the BMI group pre-integration to deal with any surplus. I can't believe I'm having to say this. If you believe otherwise you really are living in la-la land.

[BMed Boy]

I'm not in la-la land matey, you should look at the legal realities here and not just your own smug position.

TUPE and redundancy
Dismissals on the grounds of redundancy are permitted by TUPE, as they will normally be for an ETO reason, although the new employer will need to make sure that the redundancy is fair within other employment legislation: eg. selection for redundancy is fair, and not based simply on the fact that the person is a transferred employee.

[BusDriverLHR]

you should look at the legal realities here and not just your own smug position.

I'm not feeling smug at all matey. I take no pleasure in seeing others lose their jobs. I've seen it before and its a really crappy experience. But it's time some people opened their eyes to the reality of what's going to happen here.

selection for redundancy is fair, and not based simply on the fact that the person is a transferred employee.

Hence why redundancies will (if necessary, unfortunately looks likely) be actioned prior to integration. Whether they use LIFO, BMI-Mainline DOJ or BMI-Group DOJ is unknown to me.

[Jockster]

BMI DoJ will not apply to staff travel either because I would be disadvantaged if 'we' were both trying to get on the same flight and Keith Williams told me that no BA pilot would be disadvantaged by the take over. I've kept a copy of the email.

[LHRPony]

Bmed Boy, please see my post from a few pages ago.
What makes pilots think that they are a special case? They will be treated the same as the ops staff, marketing, sales etc. BA will, no doubt, do exactly what they did with the Dandair take over. Say we need x pilots from that company they rest will be let go PRIOR TO INTEGRATION. As I said a few pages ago if some people put the same energy into working together as they put into "hypothetical" court cases we could all be a lot better off.
But I am not ashamed to say my number one priority is looking after my family as I'm sure it is for you. I've already taken a few pay cuts in the past few years and there is not a lot of slack left. I'm not alone feeling this way.

So instead of bitching about seniority and court cases lets look to how we can avoid people losing jobs

[Juan Tugoh]

Trolling a little hard there Jockster! DOJ for ST will be BMI DOJ, for many reasons, both legal and practical.

ST in BA is discretionary - it is not contractual and can be withdrawn at any time by the company. Everytime you use the ST you confirm that you are aware of this. BA can do what they like with ST including giving new joiners more or less of it. In reality, precedent and the dinosaur that is the BA ST computer system will ensure that all BMI pilots will have ST based on DOJ to BMI.

[Jockster]

Oh so Keith lied to me / us then?

[Juan Tugoh]

I doubt he lied but I suspect he was very careful with his words - care to reproduce them in full?

[stormin norman]

Reading some of the posts here there'll be some some BMI guys having a very short career
with BA.

Quite a few ex BCAL and Dan Air guys never got past 12 months.

[Callsign Kilo]

If that's the case, fine. Maybe we will see the DEP holdpool unfrozen or some of the less fortunates that stucano mentions get their chance. I would suggest this would be the minority. I would imagine the vast amount of bmi guys just want to get on with things.

[Anton du Flasheart]

My situational awareness says that, like nearly all of the rest of us, I worked hard to get my licence.
I marketed my self as a pilot and entered into a reasonable contract in return for my market worth.
I do not think I ought to be grateful for a job at BA or bmi.
Atitudes like Stucano simply allow managers and accountants to erode our market worth - wake up smell the coffee and toughen up, it's a hard world out here.

[Count Niemantznarr]

I don't know what's up with the Flight Crew in BA all the time they seem to give stuff away, £10m this occasion to preserve the precious Bidline and status quo..

As one Captain said to me the other day "If only BALPA were a bit more like BASSA..."

No doubt BALPA were shown the "books" at BMI to see if the airline is really in the pomme frite, before recommending capitulation. Appeasing Willie is playing straight into his arms. Look at the IBERIA pilots; they are not going to give in without a fight. No doubt they are supporting their cabin crew colleagues, unlike the strike breaking mob of pilots who went into work serving drinks in the cabins.

So here is your reward for helping BA in its "fight for survival". You have been screwed. Enjoy!!

[Set 1013]

My god, most of you on here are like 5 year old kids that quite frankly need your bloody heads banning together!

I completely agree with stucano. You BMI drivers are honestly bloody lucky to have a job. Not only a job, but a job with an airline most people would give their right arm to work for! I strongly suspect it's only the minority of the BMI AND BA pilots talking on here, but you are all making yourself look bloody stupid and unprofessional.

Just look at the cold hard facts. You are all going to have money to pay the mortgage and keep the wife and kids happy, fact! Life if unfair sometimes but be an adult, take it on the chin and deal with it!