BA/bmi merger (was Virgin & Balpa - bmi next ?)

[NigelOnDraft]

FANS I find it highly questionable that LH & BA can be involved in a transaction that ultimately results in a reduction to contractual pension commitments, and think this should be of concern to every (private sector) member of a DB schemeI'd agree to the second part of your statement :uhoh:

Re the first, I think some more detail will be needed. Firstly, it has nothing to do with BA - it is IAG conducting the purchase. You might suggest the difference is academic, but I'd say not:
BA is a UK based plc, albeit no longer listed
IAG is a quoted company in Spain
LH ditto in Germany
I suspect the moves here against the interest of the bmi members have only been able to happen since it is a foreign company (IAG) making the purchase. I would have hoped UK Law would enable TPR to have forced BA to take on the Pension liabilities, had BA bought bmi. A hint in this is the apparent reluctance of the TPR to allow LH to accept the liabilities?

To those in BA, the parallels might be seen as worrying - could we see the BA Pension funds also "no longer underwritten" by IAG, whilst IAG also have the financial means to adjust accounting to make BA technically bankrupt (much as LH have been said to have done to bmi)?

[MrBenip]

This in the future could well be a possibility as with any final salary pension scheme in deficit. But with BA's liabilities it would sink the PPF as the Government is not bound to underpin it with taxpayers money (unlike public sector workers!!)

It all just goes to show how companies can wriggle out if they are determined enough and the pension regulators powers are not as strong as we might have thought.

[RHINO]

Just to be clear Cityflyer the PPF will have played no part in the discussions or decisions. It is the Pension Regulator. The scheme has yet to be assessed by the PPF......

[NigelOnDraft]

IAG explicitly DOES NOT support BA's pension schemes;Well, who does then? Please don't say "BA" - AFAIK It does not really exist now, nor as an entity with a decent Balance Sheet to back APS / NAPS?

[Walnut]

From what I read between the lines, BA were not prepared to stump up any more cash to fund the bmi pension shortfall just as Iberia was not prepared to merge with BA unless the BA pension liabilities were capped.
Lufthansa only offered what they did because they were so desperate to offload bmi. I believe they needed to double the £84M offered to put the scheme on a stable footing
If the bmi pension deal had not gone through then IAG would probably have walked away from the merger.
The PPF has stepped in because the bmi fund is insolvent. In future years they,the PPF, will have to put their hands in their pockets, so to mitigate their loses the bmi guys have had to take a major hit, 20% plus I suggest. However there is one short term beneficary, its the government & the deficit.!! The £400/£500M?? of bmi pension assets will reduce the governments GDP debt this year just as the Post Office scheme did when it was taken into public control. George Osborne will be happy.

[NigelOnDraft]

CF - you clearly have a better handle on this than many, particularly me. I have been trying to establish exactly "what" BA is, in employment and legal terms, for various reasons. I shall try to understnad that link at some point in time ;)

I do note the clause you mention, however, seems only valid for 5 years?

[Farfrompuken]

IAG - International Airlines Group - 2012 RNS Releases (http://www.iagshares.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=240949&p=irol-rns&nyo=0)

[FANS]

The legal positions of breaking the veil of a limited company, DB pension schemes and jurisdiction are not questions for these forums, as no one here is privy to the transaction details.

All we know is that a transaction has occurred whereby (in substance) BMI staff will transfer to BA and as a result some will lose their previously agreed pension rights.

In the meantime, we have spent 500+ posts debating seniority lists etc., which are in relative terms a zero sum game/cost for management, whilst the airlines have potentially cost BMI staff £85m!

This situation is fundamentally different to redundancy etc., which can and does unfortunately happen and is in line with an employee’s T&Cs.

We now have a situation, however, whereby through the actions of LH/BA/IAG, employees have lost their previously contracted obligations, and this requires addressing ASAP for the interests of all UK private sector employees in a DB scheme.

[MaximumPete]

Off topic and Mods please forgive me:

Exactly one year ago today the Glendonbrook Centre for Enterprise Education was inaugurated at Loughborough University, located in the School of Business and Economics, and will provide fully funded PHDs.

This was funded with a donation of £1m by Baron Glendonbrook, who freely donates to a wide variety of good causes including the Royal Flying Doctor Service of Australia and Cancer Research.

Maybe MB saw the lack of business training within industry in general and has done something about it.

[skip.rat]

Hi Pete
Nice to hear from you again!

Whilst charitable donations to deserving institutions from LG (and anyone else) are good to see, it still sticks in the craw that he didn't see fit to 'donate' to, i.e. not rip the guts from the company, and, as we are seeing now, the retirement prospects of those that worked hard over the last 13 years; for I believe that is the point when he decided that the only person who deserved to benefit from the airline's existence was himself.

[Say again s l o w l y]

Sorry but what on earth has that got to do with the fact that bmi is now being dismantled and the thousands of staff who put years of their lives into it are being stuffed over by being both made redundant and having their pensions chopped down?
Mostly because Lord Glendonbrook ripped the heart out of the company to feather his own nest, most of which could easily be construed as a total disregard of his fiduciary duty toward bmi.

[MaximumPete]

I think MB's attitude to his pilot workforce is well known and I felt I was treated as a necessary evil, certainly I felt that in the 1970s until the mid 1980s. The words overpaid and premadonas spring to mind. Cabin crew could be recruited from the local Woolsworth counter store in Ashby.

Yes, I agree with totally and entirely with your last remark. Spot on!

I was trying to show the two sides of a person. A lot of people have been deeply affected by the way the airline has been run by a management model that appeared to have it's origins in Loughborough's town square market.

I strongly feel that MB should match the proposed LH "donation" of £84m. After all he helped make this mess and should pay part of the price. He has not been exactly coy about how much he carried off int the sunset. Was it about £250m? How much of that can you actually enjoy spending in your declining years, £8m a year?

Perhaps write it off against tax with a bit of creative accounting?

[Ancient Observer]

If balpa do nothing else in this, employing a lawyer or two and a forensic accountant actuary to trace back when/where the Scheme went all wrong and beyond rescue would be a good start.
May be it's not MB - maybe it was the Actuaries who advised the Trustees? Some very detailed legal and actuarial digging is required.

[skip.rat]

Ancient Observer

-Hear, hear! The coming months will be the last opportunity to do anything to change this disgraceful situation; to think that just a couple of years ago the company refused entry of the ex-FS pension scheme members onto the DC scheme at the same level as other employees, as we had 'benefitted' :yuk: from such a gold-plated scheme in the past................:mad:

[Walnut]

City Flyer

You obviously have some inside information. The £84M put in by LH you imply was the least they thought they could get away with.?? They could have perhaps put in nothing under current law.??? So this sum was a PR exercise, so if the stink is great enough then more could follow.???
LH is a big rich company and no company wants bad PR. The implications for all future pension schemes under wind up legisislation are potentially grave.??

[Erwin Schroedinger]

I'm no pensions expert, but something isn't right here.

Lufty owned the bmi group of companies and, even if there was any previous doubt, today's confirmed sale minus the pension scheme placed the ball very firmly in their court. I've tried to work out how Lufty aren't entirely responsible for supporting a normal continuation of the pension scheme and there have been some excellent posts on this thread, but I'm still unconvinced that recent decisions are correct.

I'm mainly posting to suggest that, although participating and viewing on PPRuNe helps to share knowledge, etc., it doesn't influence the key people making the pension scheme decisions. All involved employees must raise their doubts and questions with the Trustees.

Any BALPA memeber must ensure that the recent positive statements from head office aren't allowed to wither, as so many BALPA efforts all too frequently do.

Give the Trustees some stick and keep telling BALPA that you support their efforts.


As for the recent thread drift, may I suggest Jet Blast and a title 'How does one go about buying an honourary degree and a New Year's honour?'. Not that I'm implying anything regarding the poster or his subject, you understand. As if I would.

[stormin norman]

Its an appalling state of affairs when a person not only loses their job but a significant
amount of their accrued pension pots. Those just about to retire must be going up the wall with worry.

[MrBenip]

Yup! and it is becoming a habit with Lufthansa; Lufthansa is criticised by MP for benefit cuts (http://www.professionalpensions.com/global-pensions/news/1457971/lufthansa-criticised-mp-benefit-cuts)

[Sir George Cayley]

And what effect will there be if as I understand it, Baby and Regional now come in the package as Lufthansa failed to find a buyer?

[Flying Wild]

And what effect will there be if as I understand it, Baby and Regional now come in the package as Lufthansa failed to find a buyer?

SGC

There is no 'if'. As of 0001 hrs on 20 April, baby and regional were both taken over by IAG. As to the effect? It could be that of a fly hitting your car at 70mph i.e. not much. Or driving into a deer at the same speed... Nobody really knows.

[Walnut]

So if BA now owns all three bmi groups did Lufthansa also sell off??!! the smaller outfits pension schemes along with the main bmi scheme? ie they are all in the PPS orbit even though the company that owns them now BA is not insolvant. A real buggers muddle.

[MaximumPete]

Why didn't MB make it a condition of sale of his shares to LH that should they sell the Company they MUST make adequate funding available for the safeguarding of the Pension Fund at the time of any sale to the third party?

If only life was so simple!

[Yellow Sun]

So if BA now owns all three bmi groups did Lufthansa also sell off??!! the smaller outfits pension schemes along with the main bmi scheme? ie they are all in the PPS orbit even though the company that owns them now BA is not insolvant. A real buggers muddle.

The majority of the members of the Baby and Regional pension schemes will be in Defined Contribution (DC)schemes whereas most(?) bmi employees will have been in the company Defined Benefit scheme. The only issue with the former is whether the employer has kept their contribution up to date; they certainly should have done. The DC schemes do not fall under the remit of the PPF as no promises have been made other than the size of the employer's contribution.

Some members of the Baby scheme who have previous employment with bmi may have a preserved interest in the bmi scheme. Ex-Business Air employees still with Regional may be a bit more complicated, I do not know whether Business Air ever ran a DB scheme, although I believe that they probably moved to a DC scheme in later years.

[MaxRange120]

Struggling employers get lifeline on pensions as funds crisis forces regulator to take action

A financial lifeline will be thrown this week to about 350 companies struggling to fund deluxe final salary pension schemes against the backdrop of a faltering economy. Without the regulator's decision to relax its approach to the funding of pension deficits – estimated to total about £255billion – it is feared that many scheme sponsors would be in danger of failing to meet their pension promises.

Struggling employers get lifeline on pensions as funds crisis forces regulator to take action | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/money/pensions/article-2133104/Struggling-employers-lifeline-pensions-funds-crisis-forces-regulator-action.html)

BA deal can't stop BMI pension scheme being shifted into protection fund | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/money/pensions/article-2132654/BA-deal-stop-BMI-pension-scheme-shifted-protection-fund.html)

[MrBenip]

Maxrange - Thanks for putting this on the forum about the pensions regulator. I saw this in the paper today myself. What is going on in the political world? There was a reasonable deal offered by Lufthansa for our pension scheme, a plan backed up by financial advice and that nice Mr Regulator man said no stick it in the PPF. Now this article appears in the newspaper saying he is going to be more pragmatic! I think now the government has said to the regulator, ease up because the PPF is not a bottomless pit and much more burden and it will sink.

I really think this is enough to make the trustees go back to the drawing board with DLH and the regulator guys for a rethink now the regulator is 'being more pragmatic' as this all sucks. But I fear it ain't going to happen. Basically we are shafted, there's a big picture here and we don't figure.

Also in the FT today an article about how BA have got the bargain of the century with the purchase of BMI. I should say so! All the cream that's desperately needed for expansion at a choked LHR whilst the troops get their future (pensions) decimated and BA get us on the cheap to fly the slots. Is that the best they can do? Our old company were pussy cats compared to this lot.

Also I do wish the papers would stop printing that whilst the pilots are enraged they would get a maximum of £35000 odd from the PPF. That is rubbish! 99% of the pilots have a NRD of 60. The compensation is capped on a sliding scale according to retirement NRD. The figure they quote is for an NRD of 65 not 60. Then there is a 10% reduction to apply. A pilot with an NRD of 60 can only expect max of £26000 odd. A far cry from the FS scheme promise that we have paid up to 18% of our salary for in latter years.

[Hand Solo]

The bargain of the century thats losing £3M+ per week? BMI is a basket case and IAG bought the slots, nothing else. I fully sympathise with the position you're in regarding pensions but if you expected IAG to be anything less than ruthless with regards to the insolvent BMI business then you have seriously misjudged the situation. You were going to get a great deal with your future employer, with commands and future promtion prospects protected. Who threw that out of the window?

[MrBenip]

Hand Solo, You seem to credit the BACC with more power than Mr Cameron!
This was all worked out by IAG beancounters from the start I imagine. We have already seen what WW thinks of unions. Why would they cough up more T's & c's because the BACC wanted it? They would not spend a penny more than they had to. I think it is rubbish that nice chats between our CC's would have made much difference to the final outcome.

I think you keep saying this as you do seem to enjoy making us feel like naughty boys getting punished for not doing as we are told by the mighty BACC.

You seem to profess to know the final outcome, well here us guys sit and we are employed by BA and don't know anything about our new terms so you must be well connected or like to sound it.

Your occasional sympathetic gestures would seem more genuine if your posts did not constantly harp on about how we should have cuddled the BACC. It will do your futures no good if we are employed cheaply as WW would wonder why he couldn't get you guys for less, especially now his bonuses were slashed. We are almost getting back to the option you did not vote for. I see this as an own goal on your part.

[Super Stall]

Benip,

You are obviously very angry and rightly so regarding pensions etc., but on a couple of threads you now appear to be lashing out randomly in every direction.

Over the last few years the BACC have in fact been incredibly innovative in finding solutions to the problems we've had at BA (pension's and work coverage are just two). They have also been very succesfull at squeezing money out of BA where previously there was said to be none.

WITHOUT A DOUBT a combined proposal from the CC's would have elicited more money, more harmony, better T's & C's and quite possibly (as it remains to be seen) more jobs from BA/IAG. There is no 'smugness' from anybody on the BA side just an awful lot of frustration towards the 'we know better' BMIcc.

Unsurprisingly you are now going to get a few 'I told you so's' but by God there were enough people screaming on here for the BMIcc to be reasonable, only to be shouted down by the DOJ crowd.

The company you worked for now no longer exists.
It was bankrupt.
It has been rescued by IAG.

None of this is the fault of IAG, BA, Balpa, BAcc or indeed poor Hand Solo, so I would redirect your fury to where it is deserved.

I'm sorry if this sticks in your throat but if you're not careful it's going to eat you from the inside out and make you miserable for the rest of your life.
Fight the pension issue but for the rest, it's time to move on.

[RHINO]

Super stall, BMI was not bankrupt and that is why on so many levels this is a fascinating case. The pension regulator has sent the scheme to the PPF for assessment, this as far as I can tell is a first for a scheme coming from a company that has not had an insolvency event. Particularly gauling is that it appears the trustees their advisors and LH had reached a different outcome. I can clearly understand why long serving BMI pilots (and others) will be spitting tacks over this. BALPA are already managing expectations (downwards IMHO).

If BMI were bankrupt their would be no slots for BA. They would have been returned to the slot allocators.

Something you will get no argument from me is that the BACC have done an outstanding job. Look at the BA(IAG) share price over the last 5 years. A big lose for the owners and quite a decent win for the pilots.....well done the BACC!

[Super Stall]

As I understand it the business unit was losing £3m a week with no cash in the bank. With the state of the FS pension schemes in the UK there would be no buyer willing to take on BMI whilst increasing it's pension exposure. BA with NAPS having already been through two painfull restructuring's would never have considered buying BMI without LH taking on the pension scheme.

BMI was on the verge of being closed and all jobs would have been lost.

Sounds pretty bankrupt to me.

However what I do find incredulous is the way in which LH have been able to walk away from the scheme without making good the shortfall, and for that you have my total and absolute sympathy.

[stormin norman]

Spot on super stall.

The Government should ensure that no financial viable company can walk away from a company it owns without ensuring the accrued benefits of its pension members are assured.

If Gordon Brown ( and labour) hadn't dipped their grubby little fingers into peoples private pension schemes i'm sure the BMI scheme (along with thousands of others) would be in good shape.

[Ancient Observer]

I am concerned that we are only hearing a pert of the story in the media.
If bmi was effectively "bust", why weren't all of its assets sold off by auction, and the funds used to pay off its liabilities - including the old pension scheme? Then, if the wierdy beardy wanted to pay bucket loads of money for slots, he could have bought them - as could the Middle east airlines who would pay well for the slots, and compete better with our legacy airline?
Am I missing something? Why was a done deal announced so the only "assets" of any value went to the UK legacy carrier, rather than being used to fund the pension scheme?

[Super Stall]

If bmi was effectively "bust", why weren't all of its assets sold off by auction, and the funds used to pay off its liabilities

It was auctioned off, IAG won and has taken on BMI's liabilities except the pension fund which LH agreed would remain with them for them to administer.
The question is how LH can then make a token payment and dump the scheme onto the PPF, walk away, leaving the scheme members (and every other UK pension fund (who contribute to the PPF)) to pick up the bill.

It's quite astonishing and disgusting in equal measures. :sad::mad:

[Megaton]

If bmi was effectively "bust", why weren't all of its assets sold off by auction, and the funds used to pay off its liabilities - including the old pension scheme?

They were "effectively" bust because IAG chucked in £60M to keep it afloat until the sale was approved by the regulator.

[MaximumPete]

From Airwise on possible redundancies at Lufthansa:-

"Lufthansa has a tradition of dealing with employees in a fair way when it comes to job cuts.." said Lufthansa spokesman

Oh Really????

[MrBenip]

Ancient Observer; You are quite right, there is a bigger picture here I think. The regulator assessed that the amount of money Lufthansa was prepared to put in would not have given the pension long term security, although financial advisors probably believed it would have. If either Lufthansa or IAG were to put any more money into the pot there would have been no IAG/DLH deal so no jobs. (Or would Branson have bought it?????).

So in essence we had sacrificed our pension scheme to save the deal, all done without our knowledge. So the big boys have got away with less than they should have done after promises to maintain the scheme only a short time ago. There must be politics at play here in order for IAG to take most of the slots instead of an outright insolvency of BMI. What would have happened to the slots then I really don't know, but a missed once in a lifetime opportunity for BA would have been lost. The PPF probably agreed to take it on now in case it faced a bigger liability if it had to take the pension scheme on in the future perhaps. Now in Sunday's paper it says the regulator is throwing a lifeline to schemes by being 'more pragmatic' - how bizarre! a turn of coincidence perhaps or a direct result of this case which is appearing in newspapers. Will or would it have affected this outcome now who knows. Is Balpa taking note of this and talking who knows.

What I do know and hope you understand is the utter frustration about being told hardly anything about our T's & C's and final pension outcome to date we are all in a state of limbo at the moment.

I will only comment about the lack of interaction of the BA & BMI cc's by saying the talks were probably started too early because BA management could not enter the arena until they actually owned us and naturally I guess the CC would have liked to have found out their views in order to correctly represent us. That is when everyone should have sat around the table in my view. Hindsight a wonderful thing, they are only pilot reps for goodness sake, not professional negotiators. Does Balpa itself actually figure in this and give advice I wonder, or are they hiding in the trenches while a difficult battle is being fought? coming out when all the flak is over. These are NOT accusations, just questions really.

I have no information other than my perceptions by reading news articles and the internet for clues including these forums.

Super Stall - I am only lashing out at the one or two who append every thread with a told you so attitude. I am not a rep but I can only try and understand their position and they must have so much going on from all sides that life must be very difficult for them at the moment, if they screwed up so be it. At least they did their level best committing all their spare time I would think. With all the foregoing I am in no mood to sit here and let people get away with a smug told you so attitude.

P.S. Thank you for your kind words regarding the pension. (I do not mean that sarcastically) Cheers!

[stormin norman]

'regulator is throwing a lifeline to schemes by being 'more pragmatic'

This is nothing more than a Government proposal to move the problem further into the future.

[FANS]

It was only a few years ago when BA was seriously looked at as an attractive buy-out asset, but alas it was considered a pension scheme with an airline attached!

Whilst today the BMI crew have potentially been unbelievably affected, it has shown what an easy target the crew are – a few of whom have spent all their time arguing over seniority lists whilst £84m has gone out the door and BALPA also appear a hundred steps behind the game.

Given the ease and lack of commotion with which this has been done, then isn't the only question whose next?

[MaximumPete]

Looking at this objectively, surely there must be an EU rule somewhere to protect pensioner funds from this financial abuse.

There seems to a law for everything else!

[MaxRange120]

The bmi pensions action group (BPAG).


The BPAG has been set up to secure justice following the decision of the UK Pension Regulator to assess the bmi pension scheme for entry into the Pension Protection Fund (PPF) – a move that will mean substantial cuts in pensions for people who have conscientiously paid contributions in the expectation of a reasonable standard of living for them and their dependents in retirement.

And this bmi pension debacle reaches every corner of bmi; existing pensioners and those still working, deferred pensioners, widows and orphans; relatively well paid and lower paid; those in a union and those not. Everyone will suffer and BALPA has made its expertise and resources available to support BPAG and to give those whose pensions and associated benefits are to be cut, a voice.

And this not only affects bmi employees and pensioners. As reported in the Sunday Times “for the first time a large solvent company has been allowed to dump liabilities into the Pension Protection Fund (PPF) and walk away”. Where Lufthansa (the owners of bmi) has trod, others may try to follow. All pension funds will suffer, as all are expected to fund the PPF by way of a levy and yet, in this case, will be required to do so because of the actions of a blue chip company.


BALPA | ABOUT BMI PENSIONS (http://www.balpa.org/saveourpensions/News/ABOUT-BMI-PENSIONS.aspx)

[FANS]

In support of the BPAG BALPA has;

1. Engaged a top legal firm to pressure test the decisions of the Regulator.

2. Held a meeting with the Regulator. We are not at liberty to divulge the contents of that meeting, yet.

3. Written to Lufthansa who has expressed surprise that their proposed agreement was rejected by the UK Authorities; but have done nothing to improve the position so as to address the Regulator’s concerns.

4. Written to the Pension Minister seeking a meeting (click). He has not taken up the offer arguing it is for the Regulator to act (click)

5. Written to the Dame Anne Begg who chairs the Work and Pensions Select Committee. Dame Anne has said she will raise the matter with Bill Galvin (the Regulator) and Alan Rubenstein (CEO of the PPF)

6. Sought support from the TUC to make the current plight of bmi employees and pensioners a priority and to highlight the way this could affect all pension funds.

7. Written to BA who have bought bmi, but have managed to side-step its pension liability.

8. Engaged actuarial support to advise on the £84 million “top up” proposed by Lufthansa, which is wholly inadequate

BALPA is trying to resuscitate the patient after it's been buried.

Why on earth it wasn't doing many of these actions beforehand and jumping up and down about it then is beyond me.

[MaxRange120]

What you can do


BALPA is organising a lobby of parliament on 27th June. If you would like to be part of it, please write to your MP seeking a meeting between 9 and 4 on 27th.

(WriteToThem - Email or fax your Councillor, MP, MEP, MSP or Welsh, NI, London Assembly Member for free (http://www.writetothem.com/))

A Draft Letter to MP on bmi pensions can be found here.

BALPA | Documents (http://www.balpa.org/saveourpensions/Documents.aspx)

[stormin norman]

For a pensions minister Steve Webb has been absolutely useless. He sidesteps answering any questions on pensions even from his good mate Vince Cable.

Both the Conservatives and lib dems promised to protect accrued pensions at the last election.

You know who not to vote for next time.

[Erwin Schroedinger]

Pensions Minister Steve Webb is of no use whatsoever, in my recent experience.

My MP is being very helpful. Have you written to yours? :suspect: They are unlikely to help if you don't write to them, you know. :rolleyes:

The BALPA initiatives are commendable. They deserve our full support. Be warned, though - they won't keep attacking on your behalf without your continued support.

As for future elections, Labour's Brown taxed private pensions out of future existence, the Conservatives didn't reverse that and Steve Webb and Vince Cable are Lib Dems.

UKIP? 'Nigel Farage' is worth a search of YouTube if you aren't familiar with the UKIP leader's views (or style).

[MaximumPete]

The letter from the Minister of State for Pensions, in a letter dated 8th May 2012 to one of our local MPs, states:-

"My understanding is that negotiations are ongoing and therefore it would not be appropriate for me to comment at this time."

What negotiations??

The sale was completed eighteen days before the date of this letter.

Negotiations,who with?? BA? No LH? No MB? No TPR? No Pension Trustees? No

By Definition from the Collins English Dictionary negotiate means:-

Discuss with view to mutual settlement, arrange by conference

The deal had been done, possibly with his knowledge, and he's keeping away from something with far reaching consequences that could affect his career.

Bit like a real politician!!

[MaxRange120]

What next

Our focus is on exploring all legal avenues and on keeping this high on the agenda of Lufthansa, the Regulator and Politicians, on making ourselves a thorn in their sides. We, certainly, have no plans to retire and walk away.

As has already been mentioned here.

The BALPA initiatives are commendable. They deserve our full support. Be warned, though - they won't keep attacking on your behalf without your continued support.


BALPA is organising a lobby of parliament on 27th June. I do feel that this may be the best option to raise the BPAG profile within the U.K.


BALPA were appearing before the Commons Northern Ireland Select Committee yesterday,where the pensions issue was also highlighted

Meanwhile, concerns were raised about the acquisition of BMI by British Airways, which has triggered fears that shorthaul services to Northern Ireland could be cut back.

The Consumer Council said IAG, BA’s parent company, had not provided it with an assurance that provision would not be reduced, “despite repeated requests”.

In its submissions to the committee, BAPA said that pilots’ pensions had been hit “dramatically” by the takeover.

The union gave the example of a pilot who had worked for BMI for 24 years and had seen a £43,000 pension reduced to £25,000.

The committee is looking at Northern Ireland’s air links in light of the Government’s Civil Aviation Bill, which will change the way the industry is regulated.

It is also examining the BMI takeover and the wider issues around NI’s connections, including whether it would benefit from a third runway at Heathrow.


Belfast should not have two airports, pilots tell MPs - Northern Ireland, Local & National - Belfasttelegraph.co.uk (http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/belfast-should-not-have-two-airports-pilots-tell-mps-16172408.html)

[Hot Wings]

Well the proposal is out!

It doesn't appear to be going down well in BA BALPA but everyone is impressed with the BMI negotiating team. What's the word at BMI?

[Bengerman]

It doesn't appear to be going down well in BA BALPA but everyone is impressed with the BMI negotiating team. What's the word at BMI?

Would you please explain exactly what you mean by this.

[4468]

Would you please explain exactly what you mean by this.

It looks like a significant number of BA pilots are not impressed with the proposal, and feel they may have been had over a barrel??

Just guessing!!! :rolleyes:

[Hot Wings]

4468 - that just about sums it up.

The comment about the BMI negotiating team is a positive one. BA BALPA has spent the last few years being very understanding to the plight of our managers, whilst promising jam tomorrow. Nice to see the BMI CC standing up for it's members. :ok:

[Hot Wings]

The threat of an external BA Express has been avoided for now - IAG can still set it up whenever they like. Anyway, we're now dealing with more concessions to get rid of the threat of an internal BA Express ie. the bubble (something that was foreseen but not advertised by the BA CC last year).

[Bengerman]

Hot Wings, you seem to have an axe to grind!

It may just be that the BACC and the BMICC have come up with a proposal which does enough to satisfy the majority in both camps.......but there will always be those who will never be satisfied!

[spider_man]

What is the new proposal?

[Super Stall]

Complex, that's what it is.

Good luck to whoever feels the need to post the details here. I honestly don't have the energy (to post, or to argue the toss with people who are not connected and will never be able to grasp the principles).

Sorry.

[Super Stall]

I honestly don't have the energy (to post, or to argue the toss with people who are not connected and will never be able to grasp the principles).

Yep, that'll be you then Studi. So very predictable.:rolleyes:

[Super Stall]

Nope!

Seems to bug you not knowing though.:E

[Bengerman]

Studi,

The deal is a) Complex

and (more to the point)

b) None of your business.

[MrBenip]

Studi Quotes;

"Is that the same BA CC that supposedly is very good at dealing with the company by giving away slice after slice without any longterm outlook?"

"Did the BMI CC really play all you BA longtime FO's so much to the wall that you guys are embarrassed to talk about it?

This wasn't the case when it was about putting up martial rhetorics against BMI pilots who argued for a fair treatment."

You really do like stirring eh???:=

[Hand Solo]

Well he's got to do something now that Lufthansas solidarity has just seen a big chunk of their short haul flying handed over to Germanwings on lower T&Cs! At least we're keeping ours in house!

[ETOPS]

Results of the compromise agreement take-up are in. Only a handful - less than 20 - have not signed with nearly 300 moving over to BA terms.

Well done guys - with unknown battles to be fought in the future I'm sure we are better working together.

Welcome to BA.

[one day soon]

ETOPS

Thanks for the welcome I for one am enjoying life at BA already :)
As you eluded too it is great to put a line under this and become a united front for any future battles.

Congrats to both the BA and former BMI guys and gals :D

[Say again s l o w l y]

Has there been a bit of post pruning by the mods?

Anyhoo, it's a sad day for the baby people who have all been dumped on the metaphorical scrapheap with seemingly nary a comment nor whimper from either mainline or BA crews.

Pretty sickening really, especially as a good proportion of the baby crews were originally from mainline and got shafted on not only the job front, but also on the redundancy package too.

Good work BALPA, you really earned your 1% this time...

[FLAPS 10-100]

I think there has been a bit of post pruning by the mods!
Not only are baby pilots all on the scrap heap. They can't even show there displeasure about the situation on here.

[Threethirty]

Very unfortunate for the baby pilots. On a slightly different note what happened to the BMI 330 pilots?

[ETOPS]

Nothing - they are still flying for BMI/BA and will simply carry on flying the 320 when W12/13 starts.

[Threethirty]

Any news on recruitment for people waiting in the pool, or is it still more of the same, wait and see?

[MaximumPete]

Found this in Flight International for the 13th June 1968. I hope they don't mind me posting it here:-

There are no indications that the very top level of the BoT favour a BOAC-BEA merger

and

BEA pilots have amassed a £50,000 strike fund, growing at £5,000 per month, to back up their claim for salaries up to £6,800 p.a. for two-crew One-Eleven operation.

Funny how things turn out

[racedo]

Phew ain't you glad that never came to be as what would the result have been.............