Turboprop to Jet

[Igel]

Just wondering. Have you any idea how to do this (I mean old classic way piston-turboprop-jet). It seems that (for ex.) turboprop pilot career (piston-turboprop-TRI/TRE) becomes a "whole-life career" in nowadays without any possibility to become a jet (big jet) pilot (I`m agree to be bonded, but not PTF scheme)

[Artic Monkey]

Igel

Forget it. Look at the situation in the UK, if you are stuck at one of the turbo prop operators over here like Flybe, Eastern, Loganair etc then you can forget going to EasyJet, Thomas Cook, Monarch, Thomson etc because of the mighty CTC.
Experience counts for nothing nowadays, the only way into a jet job over here is BA, or move to the Middle East. The natural career progression for TP pilots has been well and truly cut off and is not likely to change. There is Jet2, but if you're from the South then you have to be prepared to move North. There's some very good, and experienced TP pilots who will probably spend their careers flying TPs because they've had most avenues closed. It's a real shame. Never mind.

[bigjarv]

Ahhh but then arrives some jets! Then jet time and a whole lot of demand and extremely competitive pay starts to pull people to the middle east and asia. Where do the pilots come from then for Easy etc?

[Artic Monkey]

CTC

There's a never ending supply of 150hr Top Guns, forget it, the industry is :mad:

[bigjarv]

Remember things in life go in cycles. What you say is true now but things change.... and quickly!! Might be better, might be worse but for sure things will change!

[Artic Monkey]

bigjarv

I'm on a real downer about the whole thing at the moment. Will it change though? When (if) the economic good times come back will it mean movement at the bottom of the industry? How will this happen? The preferred method of recruitment at the moment is low houred cadets, but as long as these are plentiful in numbers why would airlines want to take experience? Every month more and more are being churned out by the CTC sausage factory, I can't see the demand getting anywhere near it was in 2006/2007 to warrant a change in recruiting policies because I think there's still alot of consolidation to be seen yet within the UK and Europe due to the ever rising cost of fuel, let alone the economy. Those in the bottom end jobs had better get used to the seats they are sitting in, because unless you go to BA or the Middle East I cannot see any way out. I guess I'd love for a few people to "put a reassuring hand on my shoulder" to convince me otherwise, but career progression is dead in the water.

[bigjarv]

I agree and feel your pain as well!! But there are some good trends the other way too. You just have to look for them. BA merger with BMI is very good for UK aviation, jobs and so movement etc. While airlines in the middle east & asia are taking only jet hours (and in HUGE quantities for the foreseeable future), well then only the likes of Easy and Ryan drivers can apply from the UK. As far as that goes they are the bottom of the food chain. Just depends how quick people will leave and they will leave for the money and the career. If they go quick then there is a gap that cannot necessarily be filled by only cadets and so the cycle starts. The economy has not properly got back on its feet yet and that is the cycle we are all waiting for. It will for sure come.

Other things are interesting like training is being re thought. Lots of research going into experience levels and accidents and alt busts etc. What I'm saying is there is a chance that experience will be worth something again soon in my opinion. Will perhaps be lead/enforced by people other than accountants (CAA or insurance companies).

As I said, aviation has always gone round in cycles and is directly linked to the economy so things will change, they always do! The biggest problem is having patience. That is my problem at the moment.

And finally, remember life is everything and a job just pays the bills to facilitate your life! Concentrate on life and let that lead your career not the other way round. It's only an aeroplane!!

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Except the Dash, which isn't.

[bigjarv]

True!! They may be buggering off soon thou!!

[macdo]

The current TCX Scheme has Cadets working on TP's for a year(or more) before coming onto the TCX jet fleet. The UK industry is beginning to see flight safety issues with too many FO's with too little experience being rostered with Capt's with only a little more or with Capt's that are not of a high calibre themselves.

[Calmcavok]

Move! Don't sit around grumbling that the job isn't coming to you. If you can't face the ME, then move north for Jet2. It's a lot closer to home and cheaper than down sarf. If your family setup seems too difficult to move because they're settled, then enjoy the fact you've got a flying career exactly where you want to live, because boys and girls, that's pretty rare.

[angelorange]

Well said Calmcavok!

Thankfully things are moving regards an over reliance on cadet schemes by LoCos. It may start in the USA (121FAR 1500h rule) and Australia (grounding of Tiger last year for 6 weeks) but it will impact the UK eventually especially now the CAA is looking into the recent claims made in CHIRP.

In the meantime keep praying and singing "always look on the bright side of life!"

[Artic Monkey]

Move! Don't sit around grumbling that the job isn't coming to you. If you can't face the ME, then move north for Jet2.

Life simple in your world then Calm? Unfortunately I don't have a spare £21,000 to pay for an obsolete type rating, or any type rating for that matter, nor can I afford the "pay cut" to go and work on a 70% contract with Jet2. It's not about sitting around waiting for a job to fall into my lap, you are spouting the same old, dull clichés that everyone spouts when people have a whinge on here. I am grateful for my job, I am grateful to be employed, but there is no progression to be had, simple as that.

[Flying Torquewrench]

Artic Monkey,

Not 100% true what you say. Monarch is actually hiring a mixture of CTC and type-rated (A320/B757) pilots this year. They are taking on several pilots from Astraeus and Thomas Cook.

[Artie Fufkin]

Arctic Monkey

I have flown with ex-TP drivers at Jet2 who were bonded for the type rating and are on a 100% contract. Further more, all of last year's 70%ers are now 100%. And since when is a 737 rating obsolete?

Jet2 may be worth another look - they are currently the only UK based operator I know of offering the TP-Jet "upgrade". The door is currently open, but for how much longer?

[Artic Monkey]

Flying Torquewrench

Well it kind of is correct, I am talking about career progression, not a step sideways. I do not possess a 320 TR so the door is still closed at Monarch for the likes of myself and others, I am flying TPs around the UK & Europe so I can't a) afford a 320 TR, or b) afford the time off to do a 320 TR. Career progression for us is dead.

Artie

When J2 phoned me up a year ago they offered me the 757, a 70% contract, pay for my own TR and don't get paid until I start online from final line check, a serious amount of cash for me to outlay and go without. I haven't looked at them since because of this but it might be worth another shot if they are offering bonds etc.
737 classic TR? will NG operators employ you on the back of a 73 classic rating? I don't know. All I know is the 757/737 classic is a dying breed in the UK.

[quazz]

I think you'll find a number of 737-800's in J2 fleet

[Artic Monkey]

And the chances of a new joiner/junior getting an NG conversion? Slim to none. Anyway we digress.

[Jaisalmer]

I am flying TPs around the UK & Europe

FlyBe? What about progression onto the Embraer series?

[Artie Fufkin]

The 75 rating is currently highly prized (check out how few 75/76 drivers are out of work at the moment).

The 73 rating is 300 - 900 and Jet2 has said its going to run the NG/Classics as a dual fleet and convert all crew. Differences course for all next winter apparently.

A huge number of ex-Jet2 peeps have proved both 75 and 73 ratings have opened doors both at home and abroad. I'm not a one man Jet2 recruitment show, just pointing out it is viable route from TP to Jet. Not great, but viable.

[PT6Driver]

Jaisalmer - FlyBe? What about progression onto the Embraer series?

Unfortunately that is based on seniority in company only. So experienced captains can and have been passed over by newly promoted captains who could have one days more seniority and 1/4 the hours experience is not taken into consideration- ce la vie!

As previous posters have noticed TP experience (no matter how much) is now virtually useless. On another thread the question was asked TP Command or FO jet. The universal response was Jet.

[Jaisalmer]

Unfortunately that is based on seniority in company only. So experienced captains can and have been passed over by newly promoted captains who could have one days more seniority and 1/4 the hours experience is not taken into consideration- ce la vie!

Sure, but as is the same at BA. Seniority is everything.

Artic Monk explained he was flying TPs around the UK & Europe and so that led me to ask if he was in a position with the aforementioned airline. If he was, why was he complaining that he was going absolutely no where? Why not gain seniority and wait for a place on the Embraer series?

As previous posters have noticed TP experience (no matter how much) is now virtually useless. On another thread the question was asked TP Command or FO jet. The universal response was Jet.

Jet time, given the choice. For obvious reasons and career progression, but a lot of it comes down to choice, life style and further outlook I would say. It would be a shame to think TP time is useless, I don't believe it is. It's flying an aircraft often in challenging environments and not behind an Airbus/Boeing computer.

[Artic Monkey]

If he was, why was he complaining that he was going absolutely no where? Why not gain seniority and wait for a place on the Embraer series?

Jaisalmer

Lifestyle is not all about what equipment you fly, it is the multitude of things that an airline offers. I am actually complaining (as you put it, and why shouldn't I?) that I am going nowhere because even in Flybe there is barely any movement at all due to the fact that pilots cannot move on to other airlines (EasyJet being the natural stepper) and thus free up space at the bottom. My situation is slightly different to most, I have a massive pension gap to fill, as do alot of F/Os, so even a 1 year F/O with another major will be on just about the same, or more than a year 0 jet captain. You do not keep your fleet seniority when changing seats within Flybe.

[redED]

Sure, but as is the same at BA. Seniority is everything.

But BA only have 2 bases which makes seniority a lot easier to deal with.

The problem at flybe which PT6 alludes to is the Embraers are currently replacing Dashes, understandably when this happens the in base senior Dash guys move on to the Embraer.

This has led to very junior Dash Captains (in GLA) getting their move to the Embraer and "skipping" company (but not base) seniority.

[Jaisalmer]

You do not keep your fleet seniority when changing seats within Flybe.

Understood, thanks.

You're right, absolutely, that lifestyle is not all to do with the aircraft that one flies. So the stepping stone, the likes of eJ, is no longer there due to the influx of CTC Flexi crews.
So what's next? What is the expected time to jet and where do any pilots that are leaving BE seem to be going? Yes time to jet can be a wait, but not an infinite one. Could it not be argued, for example, that a pilot with 'X' thousand hours on an emb-jet is in the same position as an eJ pilot with the same amount of hours on an A320 when looking to move to a bigger carrier?

I'm not saying you should or shouldn't be complaining. I don't know your circumstance.

[FlyingGasMain]

Can anybody explain where this weird obsession with jet time comes from ? Surely if you've got a lot of TP experience flying commercially you're as valid as a jet pilot doing the same. Ok, you've got some twirly bits on the front of your engine nacelles and you might fly slightly lower and slower but otherwise the job's exactly the same. Airways flying in a complex aircraft, two crew.

So where did this all start ?

[Artie Fufkin]

Extra cash?

[Artic Monkey]

FlyingGasMain

As Artie fufkin says, it's because that is where the cash is, end of story. The equipment, or type of aircraft (jet/TP) is irrelevant. Nobody is obsessed with "jet" aircraft, I don't know how you've come up with that.

[angelorange]

It began when jets were true turbo jets (1940s-1960s) not turbo fans which are mechanically (especially with the forthcoming GTF) actually very similar to turbo props as they derive most of the thrust from the by-pass section rather than the core.

The book "Handling the big jets" by DP Davies (RIP) details how "old jets" with their swept wings heavier all up weights, greater momentum and no slipstream effects were difficult to go down and slow down and needed high power against drag on the approach (flight path stability sometimes poorly called "speed stability").

Old Jets also had very long engine spool up times which combined with the way a turbo jet produced thrust at low airspeeds meant the go-around from a low thrust setting could be fraught with sink and back of the drag curve speed control problems.

Today's engine spool up times are faster and the huge By-Pass fan effectively bites the air more like a propellor at low airspeeds than the old turbo jets ever did - this makes modern jet airliners more flight path stable on approach.

Then there's high altitude operations - sadly many modern pilots aren't aware of the changes in momentum (TAS) and it's effect on manoeuvrability or the real meaning of coffin corner (Stall and Mach Buffet variation with weight and altitude). The AF447 disaster will hopefully mean more pilots read up on it. Some airlines refuse to let their pilots fly much above FL350 because of some unwise operators trying to climb too early when far too heavy.

Turbo props operate in the worst weather into shorter runways. They face far more icing challenges and have more engine controls to consider than jet pilots.

The Q400 is pretty fast for a TP and on short sectors can match many medium jets in terms of flight time.

Without the flight testing of ILS/DME/VOR/NDB/MLS/Radar/SIDS/STARS beyond the limits of the average airline flight, the current Air Traffic system would be very unreliable. Turbo props such as specially modified B200 King Airs (Aerodata GmbH and Cobham Flight Inspection) are used to test these to extremely high accuracy. Auto Pilots don't have the response rate to calibrate a 50 foot roll out guidance for an airliner's CAT3 ILS AutoLand so these are flown multi crew manually at 180KIAS gear up, usually at night with a laser tracker for ILS reference. These pilots have very good manual flying skills and each crew tests around 55 airports per year in the EU.

But would a calibration pilot get an interview with a "jet" operator? In the old days yes! Now some (less enlightened) airlines just see the B200 hours as light aircraft ops and cadets are just far more profitable.

[Calmcavok]

Life simple in your world then Calm? Unfortunately I don't have a spare £21,000 to pay for an obsolete type rating, or any type rating for that matter, nor can I afford the "pay cut" to go and work on a 70% contract

If only my life were simple! Fortunately for those with enough thrust to overcome their inertia can and do move on to better things, because the opportunities are available if you're prepared to move. It's not a cliché! I would imagine there are E-Jet opportunities available if you bidded for different bases. Jet2 70% is not your only option, in fact not even your only option at J2!

Your assertion that there is no progression to be had is simply false. You just have to be a little more adaptable in these chastened times.

[redED]

You do not keep your fleet seniority when changing seats within Flybe.


There's only one seniority list and that's company wide; dash/embraer, everyone's on the one list so there's no such thing as fleet seniority. Why should there be?

[Deano777]

I think you know what he's saying, and that is if you are a year 5 or 6 F/O then you revert to a year 0 captain when moving seats. This wouldn't be the case in alot of airlines.

[redED]

Aaaaah pay wise. Fair enough.

[UAU242]

Thread was going a little off track, so thought I'd revive it instead of starting another.

Anyway, I'm also flying Turboprops and can't see any way up the ladder. The only hope I've gathered coming from this thread seemed to be to build the hours and move abroad to the ME, or if you are one of the lucky few to BA or Jet2.

Or is the better option to join CTC (if you can't beat em, join em) if you're still eligible???
Was reading pilot career news website recently. July 2011 - CTC to train Jetstar cadets. Oct 2011 - CTC selects and trains Royal Brunei cadets. This of course in addition to the likes of Easy, Monarch, BA etc. Now you have the CTC Flybe scheme. No problem one thinks, there's always the ME. May 2011 - Qatar Makes Future Supply Deal With CTC. So what now? A lot of hard work to build a couple of thousand hours experience and grab the last few opportunities, and there's a 150 hour topgun standing in the way again?

So the question in light of this is, is it now better to turn down a Turboprop job (or in my case refrain from having a type on my license) and join the CTC empire? (or at least attempt to)

Thanks for everyone's replies!

[JIC]

Why is it a step up to go on a jet?

[UAU242]

Its a step up because its a big step up in salary! Like all jobs! Its also a new challenge for those on TPs for a while.

[Megaton]

Turbo props operate in the worst weather

Really? I've not see any turboprops around the ITCZ!

Having flown TPs and large jets, I promise you that the jet operation is far more complex and demanding than flying regional TPs. As LH pilot, you'll have to be up to speed with all sorts of weather, hot ops, high density airfields, HF ops, island ops, north Atlantic ops, fatigue management etc etc etc. I am not denigrating TP ops but there is this perceived wisdom that TP ops are just as complex as jet ops.

[shaun ryder]

You forgot to tell us how seniority is king with your airline Ham Phisted, don't forget that one ;). Why don't you butt out and offer some serious advice to these guys instead of boasting on here?

I completely agree that these experienced airline pilots flying TP's are being shafted because of the current airline recruitment policies. There is a discussion running on the BALPA forums detailing this exact problem at the moment. As you would expect, "it doesn't happen in our airline" is mentioned on a few occasions, as is "I was a 200hr jet cadet"....

Try putting yourself in the shoes of one of these people, doing the same job as yourselves, the same responsibility as you, be it 777 or J31. Can you swallow that? They are paid a pittance and are being restricted from bettering their career because of the cosy relationships between the FTO's and airline bean counters. They are also sidelined by airlines recruiting non TR bods until the list of TR people are absorbed. Its not rocket science flying jets LH either. I know quite a few muppets out there doing this exact job for a particular slot snatching carrier based out of Heathrow, one even referring once to a certain dry dusty NE wind off the African coast as the Matalan, is that near the CTZI?. They NEVER flew TP's, twins or instructed, oooh... dirty words, please excuse me...!

Its time the boot was put in by someone and this farce stopped. The doors should be open to all who are qualified to do the job, not just because of a TR or an old school tie. Get some of the TP boys out there languishing in the doldrums in the right seat of a jet, you never know they might actually be quite good, what?

[Mungo Man]

So for all of those FOs stuck on the career ladder trap in the UK, what does the future hold if they go off to the Middle East and get some A320 hours? How do you then integrate back into the UK market when you want to come home? Is easyJet going to be more intersted in a cadet or a A320 rated and experienced FO? Is the ME really a trap as well?

[macdo]

Of course its a honey trap! You don't have to trawl Pprune for long to find ample evidence of people trying to return to the uk and finding it nigh on impossible own sensible terms. But, at the moment, if you want to progress from TP to Jet there ain't much choice, I'm afraid. Incidentally, anyone losing their job in a UK airline (Baby, for instance) faces a similar problem.
OP, rather than CTC, have you considered just paying for a TR on the 'bus and trying to interest Easy or some such in you that way? Big gamble, but at least you are in charge of your own destiny.

[UAU242]

If you have the spare cash you could gamble with a type rating, but i reckon you'd have a better chance with CTC than trying to interest Easy on your own. And could one say the same about Qatar now? although I'd be surprised if Qatar relied only on CTC for its recruitment needs in the future.
So at the end of the day, is joining CTC the only viable option now for those who are still eligible?
As for whether jets are easier or harder to operate, i'm sure we'd get the hang of it just as well as, if not quicker than, a 200 hr topgun!

[Uplinker]

Ham Fisted, old bean, I think you're over-egging it a bit. In my opinion it is far more civilised up at FL410, above most of the weather in an Airbus A330 making the occasional 10 deg heading change to avoid a CB, 100 miles ahead, than mincing about at FL250 (or even FL100 in a Shed!) actually in all the rain and icing and turbulence, and hoping that your de-icing boots are going to work!

The heavier the jet, the more inertia, so more comfortable in turbulence. Jet engines; no vibration, no noise - bliss, and the modern jet does so much for the pilot.

The turbo-props are a fantastic learning experience, and some, such as the Q400 have very good performance and cockpits, but I know which I prefer now.

As someone once said to me: "You know you've made it in aviation when your aircraft's nose wheel is behind the cockpit; you don't have to bend down to walk under the fuselage; and it has more toilets than engines."

U

[excrab]

Ham Fisted was also comparing long haul jet to regional turboprop, of course it's different and there are a lot more things to know.

But flying the same routes in jet or turboprop, I'd take the jet everytime, above more of the weather, decent deicing when you're in it, etc etc. The jet is much easier.

[737p1lot]

As someone once said to me: "You know you've made it in aviation when your aircraft's nose wheel is behind the cockpit; you don't have to bend down to walk under the fuselage; and it has more toilets than engines."


Cool, by that definition I've made it in aviation.....although I would question whether it includes those who have to pay their employer....sorry, Contract Service Supplier.... for using said toilets? ;)

Sadly, I fear this is a universal problem. The guys in LoCos are pretty much trapped too....forget Horace Greeley, its "go EAST young man" as that is the only significant career development there is if you're not going to stay in your current company.

Yes, the industry is cyclical and yes things will change, but the current situation in Europe is not going to be a quick fix. It will be years if not decades before we see true and sustained growth in the European economy and the only other driver is legislation in line with what is being considered in the US re minimum hrs. However, given how close the big players in the industry are with the regulators, I will not be holding my breath for that!