LION AIR. What is the deal?

[Jumbo744]

Hello,

I'd like to know what is really going on at Lion Air? Are they hiring low time pilots (250 ish hours) or is a damn pay2fly program?

Thanks.

[FasterStronger]

Read the http://www.pprune.org/interviews-jobs-sponsorship/320496-eagle-jet-international-first-officer-training.html thread if you still haven't figured out that they are P2F company.

[cerealkiller]

Amen! :}

I have a couple of friends there who actually enjoy the thing. They worked hard to get the money to go for it and now are happy with their decision. They both were hired after the 500 hours and are now on the 1 year contract, which basically will allow them to regain the money spent for the scheme, more or less.

I'm not saying p2f is right, but it's an option. World is changing, economy too, we can't expect to live in the past while everything is moving around us.

Why should be bad working in China or Brazil? I always wanted to be a pilot, so I was ready to move to a different country since the beginning of my choice. I don't understand people that go for the pilot life without willing to move out of their native country. That sounds weird.

Jobs are out there, but people need to move. Europe is packed, Far East is the new market, and Brazil too. They are growing, in the same way, though faster, it happened in North America and Europe. Get used to the change, it's the way it is.

That was my 2 cents :ok:

[Jumbo744]

damn it!

I wish all those pay2fly pilots could get their licences revoked and never ever find employment as pilots ever again.

[Jerry Lee]

What a mature boy you are:hmm:

[sekmeth]

Lion is not only a p2f airline.
There are ways to get a 2 years contract for low timers. You only need to pay the TR, $2400 after tax + flight allowance

[Jumbo744]

Sorry if I hurt your feelings! you must be one of those guys?!

[Jumbo744]

absolutely, well said mate!

I would never be able to look myself in the mirror if I ever joined one of those schemes!

"How did you start your career?"

"Well, I bought the right seat of a 737, and started from here"

What a success story!

[Jerry Lee]

Sorry if I hurt your feelings! you must be one of those guys?!
I'm sorry, but I'm not. Ryanair and easyJet are the two best valuable (:rolleyes:) ways to get in without having found a job offer with free or bonded TR. Other ways are WindJet in Italy which requires 55K euro for TR + 500 hrs + one year contract in Italy, Pegasus Airlines for a 737 TR + 100 hrs LT and then there is another company who offer TR and LT on the A320 family in Turkey.
Is there anyone who is still interested for P2F in Italy? Give a look at Mistral Air wich offers TR + 3 months on the 737 classic.

I won't go for any of this way if I don't find a job offer without paying for TR + LT or U2 and FR don't get me. I'd rather either go for a while in Indonesia or Africa or become a flight instructor and then pay upfront for a TR only with a serious job offer. Another interesting choice would be get in the executive a day.

So, said that I'm not one of them, but that's one way to try to get in.

[cerealkiller]

totally bullock, your "friends"(as you call them) have no work permit, they work in a pizzeria waiting their turn(to serve me,http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/badteeth.gif).

they have not been hired, why should they hire them when the line of desperate pilots zombies make 20 km long. Lion air doesn't give work permits, so they fly illegally? their hours can not be recognized.What about that?

That's what I said: don't pay 2 fly, just sit in front of a screen the whole day blaming people who did and now have a job

:ok:

[Jerry Lee]

If I wanted to pay for TR and LT, I'd go for WindJet. Sicilian girls are hot!

I may do it in the future, who knows. First let me get my licences and try to get a job in the traditional way.

[Jumbo744]

I appreciate your answer. At least you are not one of this imature wanabees. I can't deny it is one way of starting a career, but, that is the least respectable one. Personally, I'll never do it. I have been in Africa for 10 month, couldn't find a job, most insurance companies want 500h TT as a mini requirement. So I am working now in a Telecom Company saving money to do an instructor rating in february and get my hours up.

Good Luck to you.

[cerealkiller]

Looks like somebody got pissed because was the only one to be kicked out: poor guy, go crying to your mommy.

You have never been there, might be you don't even know where Indonesia is.

Go out and start networking, might be you'll get a job too :}

[punk666]

In the last recruitment for Jet2 Two Lion pilots got hired...if you dont believe me start looking for some Channex guys and they will tell you as well.

And yes your right you do ENTER the country on a tourist visa but within 30 days your already in Immigration getting the work permit, once passed all the tech exam and the two sim checks with company pilots and DGCA.

[BoeBoe]

As Sekmeth said, there are a lot of guys who have a two year contract with nice salary (3000 us dollar and living costs paid by LionAir) at LionAir. They only paid the typerating, so the same what you should do for RyanAir/Easyjet ect.
So, inform yourself better when you are talking about P2F schemes and that sort of things.
Besides that, in two years when you are invited for a company, I think they would choose the guy with around 1500 hours jet engine multi-pilot hours at a black-listed airline, rather than the guy who made in two years 200 SEP VFR hours in Europe or somewhere else in the world....

Just my 2cents

[portsharbourflyer]

Well alot on here object to pay to fly to , you have to do what best suits your circumstances.

In 2007 I must have taken a 30000+ pay cut to become a full time instructor, not to mention the fact that it also cost be 5000+ of my own money to support my living expenses for the year I worked as an instructor. Although I did secure several interviews from working as an instructor, I made a very poor choice of my first multi crew job and ended up getting laid off after six months. So all in all ending up with a handful of hours of an old generation turboprop doesn't really get the CV noticed.
So to me the real cost of instructing full time for a year was 35000 pounds.

The fact remains I would have been far better off staying in my previous job (which I am now back in anyway) for a further tweleve months and raising the cash for a pay to fly scheme, irrespective of what is said on here 500 hours on a 737 may well have got me a job at Jet2 and right now would have made me eligible to apply for BA. I enjoyed instructing, I have some wonderful bar stories about flying an old turboprop, but the fact remains a pay to fly scheme would have much been much more useful for career enhancement.

The thing that has probably most contributed to the pay to fly schemes is the fact instructional pay is so low and most turboprop jobs are also quite poorly paid.

[overhere]

BoeBoe & Sekmeth - how does one apply for that stream of entry to Lionair? Would be muich appreciated if you could PM the details.

[usualguy]

porthabouflyer,

I understand you, I am in the same boat as you.
I was a flight instructor in different schools, bad paid, bad schools,...corrupt managment.
Then the low cost airlines, bad paid.
Airline down, bought by another airline, bad politic, people moaning 24h.
I finished with nothing kicked out on the street ( at least no debt), and I know whatever I take these days, flight instructor or airline again, I am good to pay and I will be broke if I am not cautious.
This job will hit us hard, at any stage.
Guys hired at jet2 can find themself out of work anytime.

Fail a sim, fail your medical, fail OPC, get sick, be late, and the managment will show you the door without pity. We worth nothing, they can exchange us like a can of beer!
This profession is like walking on a line over a river.Most guys will fall only the best will go to the other side.After several years in this profession, I know there is no futur for the majority of us and it's not going to be better.

You can still be lucky and get a job tomorrow but wait for the next turn! it's still nice to fly, and you can have a lot of fun, but in my point of views, it doesn't worth the time and the money lost.
P2F not worths, only desperate chaps will join these P2F schemes, and they will have to swim again.

[jojo737]

Hi ,
Looking for a job on B737 as a captain in Indonesia .
Anyone can give me informations on which airlines is hiring ?
Thanks

[blusky75]

i thibk garuda and Malaysia---look at the recruiters...Malaysia for sure...a friend of mine FO works there

[jetjockey696]

If indonesia is not your thing... most western find it very hard to live in jkt and indonesia. it not every one cup of tea.. there is a new p2F started in UAE... A320 and any other major types of AC you like.. :E

[Wezzel]

If indonesia is not your thing... most western find it very hard to live in jkt and indonesia. it not every one cup of tea.. there is a new p2F started in UAE... A320 and any other major types of AC you like.. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/evil.gif

do you have more info about that?

[Ollie88]

Indonesian Airlines Ready to Soar, Except for Lack of Pilots | The Jakarta Globe (http://www.thejakartaglobe.com/bisindonesia/indonesian-airlines-ready-to-soar-except-for-lack-of-pilots/402796)

Interesting news.

[jetjockey696]

Trust me Garuda Indonesia pilots REALLY hate expats.. it just not about pay. it about keeping the airline pure indonesian pilots. Garuda pilots consider themselves as the best of the best.. Top cream. that's the mentality. By the way Malaysia Airlines is the same.

What I heard that the current expats in Garuda. are having a tough time.





Garuda Indonesia, the country’s flag carrier, has inaugurated 23 new pilots from a flight school in Bali in a bid to hire locally.

The presence of expatriate pilots recently caused a number of their Indonesian counterparts to go on strike.

Garuda said Monday that the new recruits were graduates from the Bali International Flight Academy. Demand for new aviators is growing as the airline plans to double the size of its fleet, to 154 aircraft by 2015.

“Hopefully, as more cadets finish their education by the end of this year, the role of foreign pilots will decrease and all Garuda Indonesia airplanes will be flown by Indonesian pilots,” said Emirsyah Satar, the president director of Garuda.

The new aviators are scheduled to replace the 34 foreign pilots who will finish their one-year contracts by the end of this year. Garuda has 897 permanent pilots and 43 contract pilots.

Last month, around 650 local pilots under the Garuda Pilots Union (APG) launched a 24-hour strike over wage inequality between Indonesian and foreign pilots. According to the APG, foreign pilots earn $7,200 a month, including housing benefits, compared to $5,000 for Indonesians.

The strike caused some problems for the airline, with flights being delayed between two and eight hours and at least three cancellations.

The strike was called off after about 15 hours following a meeting between the union, Garuda management and State Enterprises Minister Mustafa Abubakar.

Mustafa, who was at Soekarno-Hatta International Airport for a surprise inspection, said the disputing parties had agreed to go back to the negotiating table. It was unclear whether the new recruitment scheme was part of the agreements.

“At the moment, Garuda Indonesia is educating around 200 cadets at various flight schools in Indonesia,” Emirsyah said.

To fulfill its 200 new pilots per year plan, Garuda is working with the BIFA and the Indonesian Aviation College (STPI).

The BIFA produced 100 pilots for Garuda in four batches starting in March last year. The first two batches had begun working for Garuda as first officers, while the third batch is undergoing more testing at the Garuda Indonesia Training Center before they operate commercial planes.

The BIFA said there were 75 students currently studying at the facility who would all eventually work for the airline.

“We at the BIFA are very proud to be a part of Garuda’s transformation program in realizing its vision to become an even more competitive airline,” BIFA chairman Robby Djohan said

[jetjockey696]

Trust me Garuda Indonesia pilots REALLY hate expats.. it just not about pay. it about keeping the airline pure indonesian pilots. Garuda pilots consider themselves as the best of the best.. Top cream. that's the mentality. By the way Malaysia Airlines is the same.

What I heard that the current expats in Garuda. are having a tough time.





Garuda Indonesia, the country’s flag carrier, has inaugurated 23 new pilots from a flight school in Bali in a bid to hire locally.

The presence of expatriate pilots recently caused a number of their Indonesian counterparts to go on strike.

Garuda said Monday that the new recruits were graduates from the Bali International Flight Academy. Demand for new aviators is growing as the airline plans to double the size of its fleet, to 154 aircraft by 2015.

“Hopefully, as more cadets finish their education by the end of this year, the role of foreign pilots will decrease and all Garuda Indonesia airplanes will be flown by Indonesian pilots,” said Emirsyah Satar, the president director of Garuda.

The new aviators are scheduled to replace the 34 foreign pilots who will finish their one-year contracts by the end of this year. Garuda has 897 permanent pilots and 43 contract pilots.

Last month, around 650 local pilots under the Garuda Pilots Union (APG) launched a 24-hour strike over wage inequality between Indonesian and foreign pilots. According to the APG, foreign pilots earn $7,200 a month, including housing benefits, compared to $5,000 for Indonesians.

The strike caused some problems for the airline, with flights being delayed between two and eight hours and at least three cancellations.

The strike was called off after about 15 hours following a meeting between the union, Garuda management and State Enterprises Minister Mustafa Abubakar.

Mustafa, who was at Soekarno-Hatta International Airport for a surprise inspection, said the disputing parties had agreed to go back to the negotiating table. It was unclear whether the new recruitment scheme was part of the agreements.

“At the moment, Garuda Indonesia is educating around 200 cadets at various flight schools in Indonesia,” Emirsyah said.

To fulfill its 200 new pilots per year plan, Garuda is working with the BIFA and the Indonesian Aviation College (STPI).

The BIFA produced 100 pilots for Garuda in four batches starting in March last year. The first two batches had begun working for Garuda as first officers, while the third batch is undergoing more testing at the Garuda Indonesia Training Center before they operate commercial planes.

The BIFA said there were 75 students currently studying at the facility who would all eventually work for the airline.

“We at the BIFA are very proud to be a part of Garuda’s transformation program in realizing its vision to become an even more competitive airline,” BIFA chairman Robby Djohan said

[PosClimb]

How is this going to affect Lion Air?

If Indonesia is now able to train sufficient numbers of new pilots (who are locals), then won't Lion be forced to use them and kick out all the P2F expats?

This makes the Lion Air P2F program risky... all it takes is for one government regulator to say 'no more expats... jobs for locals only who need jobs... your work visa cancelled!

[Move On]

PosClimb, Lion Air is a private company not like Garuda.

The p2f set up has it's place and it is a win win situation for Lion and the p2f pilot.

You think an organisation that has 100's of million's is going to wait for cadets to come out of a Bali flying school? Maybe? But Garuda will have first pick. Lion does have an affiliation with a flying school in Indo and other schools in the Europe, plus brokerage firms to fly their 737's...

Lion is backed by heavy finaciers in Asia....who in return can influence governments for business reasons. Why? Well as I mentioned, Lion is a Private Company.

Lion will always have expats/p2f pilots during their growth period until they too can get their national's,

[jetjockey696]

OK.. GUYS.. lion air up again with its tricks and back stabbing methods..

yesterday my friend call me who working for lion got told that the extension of contract which you recieve after 2years IF you want no longer exist..

Extension contract was cruel copy of the expat garuda pilot package....

10 weeks on 2weeks off. 5750usd per month for FO. and that about it.. hahaha.. which was much better than the local contract in lion... i guess that why the pilots was taking meth... etc.. I would too..with that pay and condtions.

Good luck in scheduling... when the next batch of CAE and eaglejet departs lion in the next few months i believe

All because there was no threat of jumping ship to garuda...no competition to get and make pilots stay.. he was told... so contract gone.. myself not jumping ship but jump out the country.

Good Luck guys... keep the faith..

[jetjockey696]

Ok...

Lion air will NOT kick you up after your hours are up... its up to you... you can go if you want..or stay.

Eaglejet guys after 500hrs will get a 2yr contract.. if you want or leave. CAE will been given a 2 yrs upon arriving to Lion.. so after your 2yrs contract expires. you where given extension of contract.. WHICH is still happening.. but the salary and conditions are changed...

THIS is what my friend was given after his years of blood and sweat... INITIALLY....

The New Term and Conditions Policy for Extending Contract

For NG First Officer

1) Contract Period: 1 year with the possibility of extending.
2) Rostering Scheme : 10 weeks On 2 weeks Off
3) Fees: NG FO : USD 2.750 + USD 3.000 (Travel Benefits)
4) The Travel Benefits will be paid accumulative during 2 weeks off.
5) To illustrate, the break down would be:

For NG FO 1st month salary: USD 2.750

2nd month salary: USD 2.750

3rd month salary: USD 2.750 + USD 9.000 (3 X USD. 3.000)

6) The rest of items are similar as is per current company policy for expatriate pilot


NOW the conditions 1 to 4 are gone.... NO more...USD just rupiah and local conditions.. just 12days off per year... 2000usd per month basic.. fly pay i dont know...I know they fly 110+per month...

So just be careful of these cowboys.... contract can change anytime they want... to lower your conditions and salary.. But if they offer better.. forget changing contract.... you never get it.... hahah...:E