Norwegian med nye F/O requirements

[-c206-]

Ser ut som norwegian har endret sine krav for ansettelse av F/O. Før var det vel ett krav å ha minst 1500 tt og valid 737tr. Men nå ser det ut som om de har delt det inn i tre faser.

Jobb i Norwegian - Norwegian (http://www.norwegian.no/om-norwegian/jobb-i-norwegian/)

Har noen mer info? :confused:

[Guttn]

Blir interessant å se inngangene på lønnstrinnene på de respektive 3 ansettelsesnivåene.

[Don K]

13thstage... What makes you say that MPL per definition are no good? How many do you know with a MPL?
And what is the big difference in your mind between a young punk MPL and a young punk CPL both with minimum hours? Besides that the MPL has more training in both multi crew environment and on the specific type?
Is it really so bad?

Cheers :\

[aloha1985]

Nytt år, nye muligheter! Heia NAS HR!:ok:

[8ah]

My two cent on the young punks with CPL or MPL ...

As far as I know there is still no possibilities for a MPL to get a ATPL without later doing the full CPL + PPL PIC time building. So for any companies with a good load of CPL and ATPL's go for MPL and one will have FO's with MPL stuck in the right seat for a loong time :E.... (And the thing on the MPL is that the punk is stuck to, Licence only valid with host airline so little or no chance the fu..er leaves for greener pastures :}...

[Don K]

8ah lets get some facts on the table, because you seem to have misunderstood both things you are commenting.
First of all, look at JAR FCL 1, Subpart G, 1.280 (2). It is of course possible to obtain an ATPL.(why would anyone go for a license which would lock you to the right seat forever?) What it says is that if you do not have 70PIC then you would now need a total of 500PIC/US, not easy and expensive, but possible!
Secondly there are no restrictions that's forcing you to stay with the same company forever. The ONLY thing that you are restricted by is that your MEIR is for two pilot operations only. Another thing that is often misunderstood is that you are bound to fly the same type for the rest of your life, also not true.
Sadly enough a lot of the things that are wrong with the MPL comes back to lack of knowledge about it.

13thstage. I understand your concerns.
But consider this..
With the MPL program, DY has the opportunity to watch over the students for the entire duration of the training and sort out the ones that are simply not good enough.
You are saying that DY needs experience, and I agree, but what if experience is not available? Thats where I think that MPL comes in handy. Maybe put some restrictions on where they can fly for the first xxxx hours?

Having worked with MPL I absolutely don't think that it is an inferior education, it is different, not saying that it is better that CPL, in some situations it might be, in others not! I think it more or less comes down to the individual student.
The cancer in this industry? Wouldn't you more say that SSTR/LT is?

Hope this clarifies some things.

[8ah]

I have no intentions getting into a ****t contest here but as an ex HOT I know a little on he MPL topic. One thing to mention to is to obtain PICUS time is that the host airline needs a aproved program end aproved TRI/Line Cpat ti give PICUS to be legal (Costly) If a MPL looses his her jobb they are on their own as again you need a host airline. A MPL needs a specialiced type rating course. etc etc.... So... My two cents is that MPL is a rather costly course for a lowcost operator. and suites the Legazy carriers better. But again MPL is here to stay.... But know what you are getting into before you start that route is my advice...

[Don K]

All I can tell you is that from the original 15 Sterling MPL I know that 14 has found jobs in other airlines again.(last one stopped flying) This includes Viking(until they disappeared), Arik Air, Cimber-Sterling, Malaysian, Turkish, Jet Time, Primera, Norwegian and more.
Nothing I know of, limits (at least european) airlines usage of MPL pilots, as long as MPL is accepted as a license in their manuals just as well as CPL and ATPL has to be.
You are correct regarding the PICUS, but I believe that most respectable airlines does have such a program, correct me if I am wrong.
I agree with you in some regards when you say that MPL suites legacy carriers better, well at least the airlines needs a certain size in my opinion.

[Guttn]

Just out of curiosity... These 14 MPLers you mentioned, who landed jobs... Did they proceed with obatining a fATPL/CPL, or did they continue to fly with the MPL?

As Quag mentions, there are experienced pilots out there who are still looking.

[Don K]

Three of the 14 has a CPL, but all three got jobs before acquiring it.

I will not get into whether DY should go for MPL or not, but I am only trying to clarify some things that seems to have been misunderstood regarding MPL.
It should never be compared to experience, because you can't replace good experience. I my mind a fresh MPL is comparable to a fresh CPL, where neither of the license holders has any experience.
There are some advantages and some disadvantages with both licenses.

[minimumunstick]

Seriously, over 4500 applicants (confirmed from several reliable sources), and many many who actually meet their previous requirements who have never heard from them.

There are also many people with up to several recommendations and a lot of experience who still have not heard from them.

And then they lower the requirements to 100 hours PIC? Have they lost all common sense? Can they not call all those people who have been waiting for years to get a call from them first and then if they run out of people they can reconsider lowering the requirements?

If I am missing the logic here then please point me in the right direction.

:yuk::yuk::yuk::yuk:

[polazarus]

Like quagmire hints at, the new requirements might only apply to Tromsø-graduates.

[minimumunstick]

Perhaps, but it would not make sense to announce new lower requirements and encourage pilots with that minimum requirement of experience to apply when they already have their hands full with (over-)qualified pilots.

If they were to have some agreement for the students at Tromsø then that should not be posted on their website as an invitation for everyone else in the world to apply!

[Crossunder]

Hours flown does not automatically equal experience, skill or aptitude. I would much rather see DY implement some sort of selection process and hire MPL students, than continue to randomly hire "experienced" pilots based upon nothing but gossip, hearsay and a 15-20 min chat. I have flown with ex Sterling MPL and TFHS "low timers", and they are in no way inferior to the other "experienced" guys. Just because you have a CPL and a couple of thousand hours, does not mean that you have the abilities to become a good pilot. The RNoAF does not put randomly chosen individuals in their F-16s.

I suspect that DY will put their TRTO to good use this year, and that Tromsø graduates will (hopefully) fill the classes; hence the new requirements :ok:

As for the alleged 4.500 applicants, I'd say that's just plain BS. Probably loads of double and triple entries and a whole lotta non-qualified guys and gals...

[minimumunstick]

I have to disagree with you.

You are probably right that among those 4500 applicants there are a lot who do not really qualify, so the number cannot really be used in this matter.

But the fact is that there actually are a lot of people who meet their previous requirements who still have not been offered an interview. There are also a lot of people who do not meet the exact previous requirements, but that nevertheless have a lot of experience and internal recommendations that also exceeds or at least equals what previously employed first officers in Norwegian had when they were hired.

Personally I know many, and believe me I do not have many contacts in the aviation business! These people all speak Norwegian fluently as well. I believe these people also should be given a chance. Why shouldn't they? Why does someone with only 100 hours of PIC time deserve a chance instead of someone who has for example 1000 hours PIC and a lot of multi time, even some jet or turboprop time in some cases?

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that low time pilots are not qualified for the job or that MPL pilots are not qualified. I am just saying that if they already have a lot of people to choose from with their previous entry requirements, there is really no reason to lower these requirements!

I also do agree that experience does not equal hours, but neither is there a reason to assume that a low-time pilot has more experience than a pilot with many hours, obviously. It's more the other way around, actually.

I also do not understand why you wish that the classes be filled by graduates from Tromsø. With all due respect to the graduates there (I have no doubt they are trained well and they are probably excellent pilots), there is no reason for them to deserve a job in Norwegian more than the other Scandinavians who have strived to complete their education elsewhere (even before Tromsø opened) and that have worked hard to acquire flight time and experience to get a job with e.g. Norwegian. To me that is very unfair to them.

In the end it's Norwegians company and they will do as they please. I just can't make sense out of it.

[polazarus]

I would much rather see DY implement some sort of selection process...
I agree with you on this, but then you say:
...and that Tromsø graduates will (hopefully) fill the classes
So do you want DY to implement a real selection process or do you want them to just fill the spots with people from a specific school? This was a little unclear to me.

[Crossunder]

So do you want DY to implement a real selection process or do you want them to just fill the spots with people from a specific school? This was a little unclear to me

...that's because it WAS perhaps a bit unclear ;) The Tromsø students have already been through a helluva selection process, and since DY does not have any real selection procedures, the only way to make sure they hire the right stuff is to hire those who have already been put through their paces. This would of course also mean ex-SAS/RNoAf/any other airline with a similar approach to aptitude testing. The only thing missing then would be a personality profile to find the typical "DY pilot". Today they do the exact opposite: No aptitude testing and no personality profile. Just a helter-skelter scramble for the door and they'll pick the first 20 to enter the room. "You other suckers who didn't make it are jinxed, and we do not want people suffering from bad luck to be working for us".

@minimumunstick: Since when did words like "deserve" and "worked hard" enter the equation? ;) This business has never been about fair treatment, especially not at DY, where they could just as easily play musical chairs to select candidates... :hmm:
To me that is very unfair to them
But would it be fair to the Tromsø graduates to pick The Other Guys (great movie, by the way!) just because they happened to have started their career a few years earlier? That would be equally unfair, and since most of the "other guys" probably never bothered to take any aptitude tests, DY would stand a good chance of hiring the ones who simply are not able to fly and talk at the same time... Most of them are excellent pilots, but I do not want to risk suddeny discovering the few bad ones next to me in an emergency! I'm sure he/she would say the same about me :}

I think we all agree on the matter, and to sum it up: I personally am a strong proponent of aptitude testing. You need some basic skills and personality traits to become a decent pilot (multitasking, spatial orientation, logical thinking etc). A personality profile will ensure that the pilots are more or less a homogenous group who think and act alike; this is good for CRM and the working environment in general. Experience can be built up in-house, and in a "controlled environment". Imagine hiring 120 chinese pilots with 8.000 hours TT each. The words "china", "pilot" and "experience" in one sentence conjures up some very unpleasant mental images, at least in my primitive mind... := A thorough and fair selection process would see every single qualified applicant invited to a couple of days' testing and interviewing at FBU. Those who score the highest and put up the best show wil be offered a job. Then it would not matter which school you went to or who you know (blow).

[minimumunstick]

Crossunder

I definitely agree that Norwegian's selection process is a poor way of recruiting pilots, and I would be happy to see them do aptitude tests etc.

However, my point remains. The way they are doing things now with that many applicants, I still do not understand why they are lowering their requirements. Because for THEIR way of doing things, there is no point. However if they were to lower the requirements and start mass invitations for aptitude tests / extensive selection process (like Lufthansa Italia) then it would make more sense, to be able to select pilots who fit a certain profile from a wider selection. In this case however there is no such selection process, and therefore allowing even more pilots apply when they already have their hands full with pilots who meet their current hiring requirements just does not make any sense.

You misunderstand me when you think I have said the selection process is about deserving the job or working hard. That is not necessarily the case, and it certainly is not the case when it comes to Norwegian's selection process. However in an ideal world those who deserve something the most should be the ones to get it first as long as they are qualified! I also believe that if there is an opportunity to make this become reality in some way then it should be done. (Too bad that's not how it is).

What I did try to make very clear though, is that you saying that you wish only pilots from Tromsø would be hired is an unfair thing to say. I backed up my argument very clearly and you did not reply with any reason why you think so. Your only reasoning seemed to be that "since when does fairness and deserving play a part", which to me proves the fact that there is no reason why Tromsø graduates should all of a sudden be the only ones who are hired. I do not understand how you cannot see that this is unfair to everyone else who has been trying to apply to Norwegian. If you would've left that remark out of your post then I would have agreed with the rest of your opinions, as I have pointed out earlier in this post.



But would it be fair to the Tromsø graduates to pick The Other Guys (great movie, by the way!) just because they happened to have started their career a few years earlier? That would be equally unfair, and since most of the "other guys" probably never bothered to take any aptitude tests, DY would stand a good chance of hiring the ones who simply are not able to fly and talk at the same time...

I am not saying that the Tromsø pilots should be left out, and as we both agree everyone should be given a chance through testing and profiling. However, it would not be entirely unfair to leave them out either, because experience does play a role. And since we are talking about hypothetical fairness in this case, it is not unfair for pilots who have more time working ****ty pilot jobs raking up hours to get the "good jobs" first. To me that is common sense.

If two people have committed the same crimes and are in prison, who would you say deserves to be released first, the one who has served 10 years already or the one who just got in? It's the same principle, if you have struggled through something for a while to achieve something, I would say you deserve it more than another person who hasn't struggled for as long as you have!

That is of course based on the equality of the people involved. I know that a 200 hour pilot can be much better than a 1000 hour pilot, but sometimes also it is necessary to limit the number of applicants, and the best way to do that is to require a certain amount of experience. This is a matter of statistics and pure math / logic. If you have a group of people and you do not know their personalities / abilities then you will be better off picking the bunch with the most experience. Within that group you will then take the ones who fit the profile, and if you still need more to fit the profile then lower the requirements.

So bottom line is no, I do not believe it would be equally unfair to the Tromsø pilots, and there is no reason to hire them first over anyone else with equal or more experience than them, which is exactly what you were stating in your first post:
I suspect that DY will put their TRTO to good use this year, and that Tromsø graduates will (hopefully) fill the classes

If you specifically like Tromsø pilots and that is what you want that is fine, it would be your opinion, but no, it is still not fair :ok:

[minimumunstick]

Helt enig. Man skulle jo tro at de ville hatt en litt mer organisert form for rekruttering når de vet at de er et voksende selskap og vil trenge flere piloter.

Men på den andre siden så er det jo forståelig at de har gjort det slik som de har gjort. De har jo plenty av folk med mye erfaring å ta av, og når mange av dem i tillegg har interne anbefalinger som jeg vil tro sikrer en viss standard, så er det jo egentlig ingen grunn til å endre på systemet sett fra deres standpunkt.

Det skaper jo derfor mer forvirring når de plutselig senker kravene uten å ha noe mer konkret informasjon om endring i rekrutteringsprosessen. Man skulle jo tro at de fortsatte å ta inn de med erfaring og interne anbefalinger (som det finnes mange flere av enda), men det er tydeligvis ikke tilfellet. Så nå virker det jo som om det kanskje blir enda mer lotto enn det du beskriver!

[bfisk]

Som om ikke det var nok var jo de forrige kravene (1500TT+500MCC) også tydeligvis bare på papiret. Av de 7 jeg kjenner som har begynte der i fjor hadde 4 ingen operativ (MCC) erfaring, og et par av dem under eller rundt 1000 timer. Så anbefalinger og telefonmas ser ut til å være det eneste som fungerer for å være med - helt bingo med andre ord.

"Resten av oss" får vel smøre oss med tolmodighet til SAS en gang skal ha folk. :)

[aozc]

Det verkar variera enormtmen mycket svågerpolitik har jag hört tillämpas, det gäller att känna rätt folk inside och få rätt referenser. I kombination med giltig TR, gärna tid på typen :uhoh:

[bfisk]

Tja... av de 7 nevnte (der kun 3 hadde MCC erfaring og over 1500 timer), hadde én - 1 - rating. De andre 6 kjøpte etter intervju. Ingen hadde tid på type (eller annen heavy type). Så...tydeligvis ikke noe krav det heller.

[The_one_and_only]

Eneste grunnen DY senker kravene sine er for å få inn billigere arbeidskraft. Skjønner ikke hvorfor alle på død og liv skal inn i DY? Du jobber mye, må betale egen rating og ikke veldig bra betalt med mindre man selger fridager

[Init-Refpage]

Jeg jobber 5-4 turnus mot SAS sin variable nøkkel. Vi flyr samme antall blokktimer i året.
Grunnlønna mi står ikke tilbake for hverken Widerøe, Lufttransport eller SAS.
Vi har en variert arbeidsdag med fabrikknye fly og fantastiske kollegaer. Hvorfor vil man IKKE inn i DY?? Kan det være at du har fått nei, eller at du ikke en gang har fått intervju som gjør deg så negativ??:oh::oh:

[berserker]

Både SAS,WF og til en viss grad LT kjører opptaksprøver og heavy intervjuer men finnes det noen statistikk på at pilotene der er så mye bedre enn de som jobber i DY?? Tviler vel egentlig på det.....
Og snakker man med folk som har failet på slike prøver så sier stort sett de fleste at de ikke fatter hvorfor man må ha sånne idiotiske prøver osv osv......
Poenget er vel at så lenge man ikke har fått jobb i da feks DY, så blir det vel en slags forsvarsmekanisme å begynne å surve om at ting er urettferdig. Litt barnehageoppførsel spør du meg:)
Livet er urettferdig, get used to it!!!!
Survival of the fittest and the one with the best contacts;)
Man får nå bare være glad for at noen folk rett ut fra flyskolen får muligheten til å fly en stor, shiny 737. Unner ingen å måtte ta sånne standard drittjobber pga. utsagn som om at det må alle andre ha gjort oppigjennom årene. Vær nå heller glad for at det åpner seg muligheter for alle og enhver. Sikkert ikke bare ubetinget negativt å ha litt variasjon på erfaringsnivået til pilotene heller.
Even a monkey can learn to fly a jet!!
Det var dagens tanker:)

[berserker]

Er det den som har mest flyerfaring som er fittest??
Eller er det den med mest penger?
Jammen ikke lett å si lenger i denne bransjen;)

[The_one_and_only]

Variert arbeidsdag med fabrikknye fly og bra kollegaer finnes i flere selskaper enn bare DY ☺ Det jeg mener er at det finnes bedre selskaper å jobbe for enn DY men allikevel snakker nesten alle nyutdannede/arbeidsløse, som jeg møter, om å kjøpe seg rating for å komme seg inn i DY som om det er det eneste alternativet. Det at DY forandrer på kravene sine er vel for å kunne ta inn piloter som de kan betale mindre lønn til?? Etter hva jeg har forstått så er kontraktstilbudet man får fra DY 30 000/mnd i 6 mnd etter å ha betalt rating?

Om jeg er litt kritisk til Norwegian så betyr ikke det at jeg har fått nei eller ikke får intervju. Er litt av den tankegangen til mange jeg ikke skjønner? Jeg har bedre betingelser der jeg er nå så har ikke lyst til å bytte til DY.

[Init-Refpage]

Jeg kjente ikke en kjeft i Norwegian da jeg kom meg inn på intervju!
hadde 600 timer turboprop og en totaltid på 1200 timer samt ei 737 rating som jeg har jobba ræva av meg for å få råd til å finansiere.
Jeg ble intervjuen grundig i en time og INGEN av mine referanser ble oppringt.. Deriomt ble mange andre som har jobbet sammen meg både innen luftfart og andre yrker oppringt fra HR i DY. Jeg vil påstå at min ansettelse ikke var tilfeldig, heller tvert om! Det ble gjort en grundig bakgrunnsjekk og jeg fikk OVERHODET ingen kompishjelp inn.

Dere som sutrer og syter om rekruteringsprosessen til Norwegian kan egentlig bare ta dere en bolle!! Hvorfor dere ikke er mine kollegaer vet dere best selv.

Slutt å syt! Gjør det dere må for å finne drømmejobben, det har jeg gjort og jeg lar meg ikke dømme.:cool::cool:

[Init-Refpage]

"An email from recruitment to "help" them by recommending pilots in the pool"

They do the same in Lufttransport, no one is bitching about that?

[Goldenbawls]

samt ei 737 rating som jeg har jobba ræva av meg for å få råd til å finansiere.
Jeg vil påstå at min ansettelse ikke var tilfeldig, heller tvert om!

:E

Norwegian har hatt en fantastisk ekspansjon og passasjervekst som det bare er å ta av seg hatten for. En fantastisk bragd, mye komersiell know how, is i magen og en god del flaks/heldig timing har bidratt. Bragden skal i hovedsak bossen sjøl, Skjeldam og beancounterne ha crediten for. Stilt overfor en slik vanvittig økning så har man ikke tilstrekkelig tid til å gire opp en full organisasjon til rekruttering, selektering, trening, og oppfølging. Man har sin fulle hyre bare med å bemanne flyene hver dag!

Hvordan finne kvalifisert personell? Jo la meg få to minutter til å spille djevelens advokat:

1. Man leter etter "kvalifiserte" piloter. Vokse flinke folk som har fløyet årevis i tung luftfart (FAR25), kanskje utenlands, og man håper de vil avslutte/fortsette karrieren hjemme. Dette fikk ting "up and running" i begynnelsen. Hvordan spare tid og penger? Jo ta de som allerede har gyldig rating og erfaring på relevant type. Dette er helt legitimt og naturlig å gjøre.

2. Veksten fortsetter, og det er begrenset med gamle BU og Color Air-piloter etc. igjen på markedet. Vel, man skal fortsatt ha folk fort som faen så man utvider horisonten, og ser etter andre alternativer. Men man har ikke råd/tid til å få opp noen egen treningsorganisasjon, så kravet om TR forblir.

3. Ryanair/Sterling/Easyjet crew med gyldig rating søker seg inn men de blir stadig færre, og man blir stillt overfor horder med 1000-1500timere med egenfinansiert "gamblet" TR. Vel, "nordmann, to bein, hodet mellom skuldre og gyldig TR" :ok:
Man har da fortsatt fly man skal bemanne! Kan du komme på kurs i morra??

Her begynner skurringen, og onde tunger vil hevde at en ny standard er satt i Norge. Fra Cherokee til Boeing såfremt man har en rating. Og hvorfor har man ikke gått veien via Ben Air, Airwing, Widerøe, Lufttransport, etc? Det er faktisk ikke folkerett å fly Boeing, dra til Afrika å fly Caravan som folk før deg har gjort. :ugh:

4. Man har fortsatt flere fly man skal bemanne, og for å få hjelp til å sortere i mengden med 1100-timere og gyldig rating så spør man piloter som allerede er i korpset om tips. Helt legitimt.

Alle legacy og majors i flygingens hjemland fungerer på samme vis, men der borte er det ikke snakk om å komme inn med mindre man har 5000TT og 1000 turbin. That´s another story.

5. Enkelte "wonders" F/O begynner å fokke opp royally, samtidig som strykprosenten på kapteins-utsjekken øker. Men veksten fortsetter. Noe må skje, tips og anbefalinger er tydeligvis ikke nødvendig kvalitetssikring. Rating og evt. linetraining har tydeligvis ikke vist seg å tilsvare "aptitude." :rolleyes:

6. Man trenger kvalifisert personell til videre vekst, men dette kommer jo til å koste dinarer. Løsning? Cadett-program med selektering, sponsret rating i regi av egen TRTO og lav lønn i åresvis. Alt man trenger å ordne er en ny treningssjef og senke ansettelseskravene. Wait, what?

[stupidlikeafox]

Og hvorfor har man ikke gått veien via Ben Air, Airwing, Widerøe, Lufttransport, etc?

Har vel ikke vært den helt store rekruteringen hos disse de siste årene....

Og ville vel heller kjøpt meg en rating på 737 enn å bruke fars penger på en Cessna SET eller B200 type.

Bortsett fra det er jeg vel enig med deg!

[dire straits]

Stupid topic and discussion!
To many bitter dudes here, its every airlines right to recruit in the way they prefer. In DY they go by word of mouth, aptitude testing?? You might get good pilots with it, DY has decided to do a very extensive backgroundcheck before they call pilots on interview. Once on the interview they just want to assure you are an ok person that will fit in with the rest. Have worked with four different airlines and not one of these had such a good working environment on the flightdeck, that is because DY actually has decided to recruit personalities.
As for bitterness, I wanted LT and the-200, I have 8500hrs, 1700hrs PT6 on BE's, 5000in command on t-props, passed aptitude tests for WF, SK and Thomson, applied to LT 1,5 yrs ago still havent heard a word from them. Recruitment in this industry has never been to everyones liking, and looking back to my 500-1500 hr days I also felt it was unfair.
DY however wanted me, so here I am!
As I started with, it is really up to each individual company as to how they want their recruitment to be done and I know that pilots in DY have and aptitude and attitude that is equal to or even better than what competing airlines get!

[EJP]

Helt enig med deg, dire straits...bang on!:D

Husk at det finnes andre selskaper enn DY i Norge også. Det skrives her om at man burde rekruttere fra WF og LT, men tviler på at du finner veldig mange som forlater disse til fordel for DY. Her har man betingelser som er vel så bra og kanskje bedre enn DY på flere områder. Dette er ingen kritikk av DY på noen måte (sikkert veldig bra å jobber der), men kun en reminder på at man ikke skal gå seg blind på at man på død og liv skal fly en 737 - flytypen betyr nada i forhold til andre ting.

Så håper at dere som bitcher over å ikke høre noe fra DY har søkt WF og LT...

[Cloud surfer]

Jeesus.

It's their god-damn train set; it's their prerogotive to whatever they want with it. Fairness doesn't enter the equation.

Tough luck, end of story. Maybe somebody somewhere just doesn't like you. Too bad; move on. Stop the whining and grow up.

[minimumunstick]

No one has ever argued that Norwegian cannot do as they please, that is not what we are discussing. Of course they can. It is just that it is not regarded as fair and can cause frustration for many pilots, this is a fact, and therefore fairness actually does enter the equation, because that is what we are talking about.

I completely agree with Quagmire, this is a forum for discussion, so let us discuss.

And about all the comments about people not having a job with Norwegian being "bitter" (surprisingly enough of course coming from you who already have jobs in the company), well, what is the problem? Are we not allowed to be a little "bitter" or dissatisfied with their selection process?

It is only natural that some consider it as unjust if a person can get into a company just because he or she knows someone (which has been the case in some circumstances in Norwegian), and of course it will be disliked if you cannot get a job just because you lack contacts. For someone who has worked very hard and has a lot of experience it is natural for them to feel it is unfair when a low-time pilot who maybe has not worked his ass off as much as you gets offered an interview before you do. This is one of the main points of the discussion.

Many of us are providing the reasons for why we feel it is an unfair way of doing things and that we wish it would be done differently. It does not necessarily mean we sit at home without a job whining and bitching about it all day. Personally I wish I had a job with Norwegian, but I don't, and it's not like I let that stop me. I work as hard as I can and find as many solutions as possible to continue my career as a professional pilot. But of course I am dissatisfied by not getting the chance to have an interview with Norwegian when I feel I am qualified, and I have every reason to feel that way. I seriously think you have issues if you cannot understand that concept.

Is Norwegian doing anything wrong? No. Is it any of my business how they choose to recruit their pilots? No. But when this is discussed on an internet forum, I believe that I and everyone else should be allowed to express our opinions and share our frustrations without being told to "stop whining" by all you happy pilots out there who already have a job in the company. I am sure you wouldn't be judging us the same way if you weren't already employed in Norwegian (or another company you are happy with) and were in the same spot as us.

[Cloud surfer]

I am sure you wouldn't be judging us the same way if you weren't already employed in Norwegian (or another company you are happy with) and were in the same spot as us.

Pretty sure I would be. Life's not fair; get over it.

[minimumunstick]

Yeah, you are "pretty sure", easy for you to say. And by the way that is a really nice counter argument to my post. You didn't address even one of my points.

We know life is not fair, that is why we are having this discussion, so what exactly is your intention by stating the obvious? Obviously you have either not read my post or failed to understand what was written it.

To make it more clear to you, the main point of my post was to convey the message that if we want to discuss Norwegian's recruitment process we should be able to do so without being lectured by you on life and that it is "unfair".

Besides, in my post I write the following:

Many of us are providing the reasons for why we feel it is an unfair way of doing things and that we wish it would be done differently. It does not necessarily mean we sit at home without a job whining and bitching about it all day. Personally I wish I had a job with Norwegian, but I don't, and it's not like I let that stop me. I work as hard as I can and find as many solutions as possible to continue my career as a professional pilot.

If you would have read this before commenting on my post you would have realized that this means I am actually over it and that I am not bitching about it, which makes your comment completely irrelevant, thoughtless and downright stupid.

Also, even though I know life is unfair that does not mean I am giving up on getting the job I want, and I will still try to find an opportunity to be employed with Norwegian if that is what I want. As an apparently happy pilot in the company you surely understand the reasons for this. Me still wanting a job in the company does not mean that I am bitching about not getting an interview, and neither does it mean that I do not realize that life is unfair. Just because it is unfair doesn't mean you should stop trying to make it fair or work towards your goals.

Either way, as I tried to explain in my previous post that you so wonderfully commented on, we should be allowed to discuss Norwegian's recruitment process without you judging us and trying to lecture us on life. Seriously.

[Dickcheesecake]

Diskutere objektivt??? Da bør diskusjonen overlates til de som ikke jobber i DY, aldri har søkt DY og heller ikke har tenkt å søke DY, men som er feit og lykkelig der de er.

[bfisk]

Og ville vel heller kjøpt meg en rating på 737 enn å bruke fars penger på en Cessna SET eller B200 type.

Jeg må korrigere deg litt angående B200 ratingen her: det er mulig noen av de som flyr caravan vil at du skal komme med rating, men rating blir ikke vektlagt hos LT (selv om relevant erfaring vektlegges): alle nyansatte, om de har 1000 timer eller 10.000 timer, går gjennom full trening, inkl rating, landingsrunder, ekstra landingsrunder på kortbane osv osv osv, for selskapets regning. Lønn fra dag 1 på kurset, hoteller, reiser og dietter betalt. Kun en meget beskjeden bonding (mindre enn to månedslønner, reduseres årlig) om du skulle slutte innen de første to årene.

[minimumunstick]

Diskutere objektivt??? Da bør diskusjonen overlates til de som ikke jobber i DY, aldri har søkt DY og heller ikke har tenkt å søke DY, men som er feit og lykkelig der de er.

Enig med Goldenbawls her. Bare fordi man er direkte eller indirekte involvert i en sak betyr ikke at den ikke kan diskuteres objektivt. Jeg mener å kunne gjøre dette viser en positiv egenskap som de fleste i arbeidslivet burde ha. Å ikke kunne gjøre dette og alltid holde diskusjonen på et subjektivt og personlig nivå mener jeg blir umodent.

Det er klart det ofte vil være en form for bias, men så lenge argumenteringen holdes saklig og argumentene som blir brukt er logiske så vil jeg karakterisere det som en objektiv diskusjon. Det er nå i hvertfall en saklig diskusjon om den ikke skulle være 100% objektiv!

[stupidlikeafox]

bfisk, tenkte vel mer på airwing ang den typen.

[onebyone]

We know for a fact that a lot of the DY pilots are SK and BU rejects and therefore not well suited for this "aptitude-test-thingie". So would it be fair of DY to ask skills from the newbie's that their old-timers doesn´t possess

You're assuming that these "rejects" were fired because of their lack of skill, which i think it's safe to say had nothing to do with it. All pilots accepted into SAS / BU met the required standard, i would assume that seniority etc would play a bigger role in who got fired.

There's really no way of telling how a person will do in these tests (at least with "proper" tests like they use in the air force etc), so there's really no way of knowing if the "old folks" would do better or worse than the "new guys". And why would they have to test every pilot currently employed by Norwegian? We're talking about testing applicants, not current staff. Perhaps it would be more "fair" if everyone, including currently employed pilots, had to undergo these tests, but like several previous posters have already said; "fair" doesn't enter into the equation.

[BBJ King]

SAS/ Ex BU pilots were not fired. They were made redundant and had to go because of cutbacks. (Crappy management which should be fired)
Most of them will shortly be invited back to the company.

[BBJ King]

Or those who failed the SAS tests, joined BU and made 300 SAS pilots redundant. Worked for SAS, lost their jobs and now working for DY. Failed their upgrade and flying as FO's for CAPTs with dodgy background and minimum experience.

It's a nasty world isn't it?
And who made this possible? YOU and ME for constantly accepting eroding T&C's.

[8ah]

One can not other than be impressed with the ****t being said here.... No mater what one say ... Aptitude testing or other means is just one way of making an assesment of a candidate or selection prossess... call it what you like... It does not make you more or less qualified than the other. It just tells whether you fitt in this or that mold....

Brainiacs here ... have a look at the bigest airlines in the world and their hiring prosess... No brainer ... more or less the same way as DY... Personaly I made both SK and WF assesment ... and guess what ... I am starting now in DY ... By faar the best intervue I ever had ... Compared to the Psyko WF ballgame outdated old bull****t wich all and everybody have a copy off ....

Aviation key is, and will always be ... Luck, skills and who you know ...:E:}:mad:

[dire straits]

Nei nei nei,
Jeg diskuterer gjerne sak men på et saklig nivå. Som jeg ser det så er det mange her som mener at de fortjener ett intervju hos DY fordi de har en CPL, like mange mener de fortjener intervju fordi de har erfaring. DY tar inn en god blanding, men Svært få uten intern anbefaling. Denne anbefalingen er noe DY vil ha fordi de mener at de nå har en god gruppe piloter. Jeg vil aldri anbefale noen jeg ikke kjenner godt og trives med, noen som ikke har samme type humor som meg, noen jeg vil føle jeg kan jobbe godt med som i tillegg kan fly. Møtes disse kriterier får jeg en god kollega som jeg gjerne anbefaler uavhengig av erfaringsnivå. DY sier 4500 søkere, det er BS. Men la oss si at de har 450 reelle søkere til 150 stillinger, ja da tar de noen som kan anbefales av noen som de allerede kjenner. Deretter gjøres en god sjekkerunde på kandidaten via venners venner etc., miljøet er fremdeles såpass lite at det går an å finne ut masse på den måten-ting som en aptitude test aldri ville avsløre. Det finnes mange med flere anbefalinger som aldri vil få intervju av den grunn!
Så vidt meg bekjent var det vel heller aldri noen aptitude-test i BU, og veldig mange gren på nesen da SAS startet med to-dagers SIAP-tester betalt av kandidaten til kr.5000,-.
Om jeg starter en airline ville jeg aldri ansette en cockpitslave jeg visste lite om, meg bekjent bruker DY relativt store ressurser på bakgrunnsjekking. At de nå har delt inn søknader i flere typer FO skyldes nok heller det at de IKKE har 4500 søkere som møter deres krav, tror ikke de har 450 stk engang-kanskje 200 kvalifiserte. Ser det som positivt at det ikke nødvendigvis er krav om T/R, om man så må starte på en litt lavere lønn er vel det greit, er det ikke?

[Init-Refpage]

Jeg har RIMELIG gode kilder som slår ihjel dine estimater på antall søkere hos oss :ouch::ouch:


"At de nå har delt inn søknader i flere typer FO skyldes nok heller det at de IKKE har 4500 søkere som møter deres krav, tror ikke de har 450 stk engang-kanskje 200 kvalifiserte. "

[berserker]

Men med kravet om skandinavisk språk så kan de da ikke ha 4500 kvalifiserte søkere, eller er det virkelig så mange folk som er uten jobb eller har lyst på ny der ute?
Men enig at 200 høres vel lite ut ja:)

[minimumunstick]

Er det noen som kan si meg hvor mye betydning det har å snakke norsk eller evt et annet skandinavisk språk flytende?

Finnes det mange flygere Norwegian som ikke snakker et skandinavisk språk? Og er det sannsynlig at de foretrekker en med masse 737 erfaring uten skandinavisk språk fremfor en med bare GA erfaring og kanskje en 737 rating f.eks men som er norsk?

[The Swedish Virgin]

BBJ King

Spot on. The only way to stop the never ending eroding T&C:s in this industry is to set "park brake on"
What the DY management is trying to do here is a classic divide and conquer and if the union can´t see it then this will be the beginning of the end for the half decent T&C:s the DY pilots are enjoying at the moment. It is not the young guys with MPL:s fault, they would be happy to fly "rubber dog **** out of hong kong" but they will of course be more than happy to jump in that shiny 737 if we let them. This is how the european low cost industry is trying to flood the market with cheap labour. Why pay an experienced FO when they can get one that will work for free.
Norwegian is no better than eJ, Ryan, Wizz. . .
Never applied to DY, don´t think I ever will, just looking out for our T&C:s

Good luck

It will be interesting to see what the deal will be for the 300 ex-SAS pilots when invited back. Anything less than the ex BU pilots would be disgusting and just another proof than the union is only looking after themself.

[BoeingDreamer]

I do not know why the new requirements are on their website, because I know from a very reliable source, that they do not take pilots with less than 1500 hours total time, exception if much time is on 737, they might accept you with less.

So I am surprised with this on their website. I think they might just be doing some marketing research to see if it would be possible to make something similar the Ryan air model, or??

[harry-seaside]

Hi sliper,

Im curious about your source about the cadet program.
do you work at norwegian that you know this for a fact?

I have just send my cv and Im a youn ab-initio wannabe cadet with <240hours.
So if those stories are correct, it is very good news for me!

Do some of you guys have any info regarding to the waiting period, Last week I received an email saying they would review my application.

And are there guys like me around this website that are being invited by nas?

thnx guys!

[BoeingDreamer]

There is no cadet program with Norwegian now, or within the near future. Again why it is on their website at the moment, is beyond me, but I have from a top source that at the moment this is not an option. No pilots below 1500 hours, will be employed at the moment, and it is preferred that most of this time is on type 737.

I guess they might be testing the waters for this, since they are setting this on their site, and things might change, but from my source it is very unlikely any changes will be any time soon, definitely not this year!

[Init-Refpage]

Sliper, I`m sorry to say this, but I work for Norwegian and what you are saying is pure BS!

[harry-seaside]

Hi Init-Refpage,

Since you are working at norwegian.
Can you explain why the hours needed to apply at nas have dropped to ab-initio level like myself?
Is there a shortage of first officers this year/next year?

Grtz
the guy at the seaside

[BoeingDreamer]

harry-seaside - Did you read what I wrote before and Init-Refpage, there is NO CADET program, and they are not hiring LOW HOUR pilots, why it is on the website I don't know, but at the moment this is not happening.

Anyone who thinks they will get a job at the moment with low hours are wrong, there is no chance of that now at the moment. Maybe this changes in the future, but not an issue at the moment.

A contact I have has told me, get hours on type, and apply then, at least close to 1200 hours on type to have a chance to get in.

[harry-seaside]

Yeah 1200 hours on type is what I thought.
I was just wondering if anybody knew the fact why low houred guys can apply now.
I mean, if you dont need the guys, why ask for them?:bored:

[BBJ King]

Those 1200 hrs on type must be on any type.... :E

[Guttn]

1. They could just be researching how many pilots without their previous requirements would apply, = planning ahead
or...
2. Their website has been hacked
:confused:

[Dickcheesecake]

.or changes in training dept, like a new training manager etc. Who knows...

[harry-seaside]

I won't be sitting,waiting,whising.

But it will be nice to hear a company like nas is recruiting ab-initio not-rated dudes like myself for once.

thnx for the info mate, I really hope those plans will become a reality in the near future :}

[GOT123]

The new F/O requirements are set up by the new training manager. I talked to him last week. He also told me that all slots for interviews are taken for the rest of the year, if something not unforseen happens then interviews will go on again.
Last interviews for this year is going to be held in May.

So it seems that they got everyone they want for the time being...:\

Best of luck to you!

[aloha1985]

I guess they got enough.. they have closed the application forms... :\

[harry-seaside]

Did anybody receive an invitation so far?

Thnx

[Goldenbawls]

yup, about 100-120 so far within the preceeding 12 months :hmm:

If you´re interested in what the assessment is like.... well don´t be. They´ve prescreened you before you get there. :ok: