Aerobatics - what are the options?

[rich_g85]

Hi all,
I've recently come back from the States where I treated myself to an aerobatics 'lesson' in a Super Decathlon at Bedford Field near Boston. I can honestly say nothing has ever made me grin from ear-to-ear like pulling up into a loop and watching the horizon rotate around the port wing tip, coupled with the sensations of g-force. :cool:

So, eager to get that 'buzz' again - I'm interested to know what the options are for continuing aerobatics training more formally in the UK, after I finish my PPL.

Bournemouth Flying Club offer the Basic, Standard and Intermediate AOPA aerobatics certificates. Are these recognised worldwide? Would these allow me to perform basic aerobatic figures with a passenger (subject to usual PPL & flying club passenger currency rules), such as a loop or roll?

Thanks in advance :)
Rich

[TommyOv]

Rich,

As far as I understand it (although I will accept corrections from more knowledgeable ppruners), when you get your PPL you can legally strap yourself into an unlimited aerobatics-capable aeroplane and just have a crack at it - with or without passengers.

Obviously, this is incredibly dangerous and you will die trying.:eek:

The AOPA syllabus that you allude to has, I think, been designed to bring some sort of structured aerobatics training to the UK. I think that an AOPA certificate is also required if you want to compete / display, although I again await correction on this.

As for learning the aerobatics figures and then taking your mates up for lazy loops and rolls on a Sunday afternoon, this can be discretionary training with an appropriately qualified aerobatics instructor, until you are considered capable enough to do it on your own without ending up as a smoking hole in the ground. The training doesn't have to work towards the AOPA certificate.

That said, the certificate is something I'm looking into myself so I'd also be interested to hear the experiences of the more experienced ppruners around.

Anybody here done it?

[stickandrudderman]

Check out "Ultimate High":ok:

[BackPacker]

when you get your PPL you can legally strap yourself into an unlimited aerobatics-capable aeroplane and just have a crack at it

Actually most (all) of the unlimited aeroplanes are tailwheel and that's a formal checkout. But other than that, indeed, aerobatics is at the moment not a separate license/rating/whatever.

The AOPA program is a good one but not the only one. At my club we're using the Robson book as a rough guide.

If you want to compete then at some stage you've got to become a member of the BAeA and receive a checkout from one of their mentors, who will sign off your proficiency card. Without that card you can't compete in a BAeA event. Not for legal reasons, but mostly insurance and being good guardians of the sport.

an appropriately qualified aerobatics instructor

Actually since there's no aerobatics qualification/rating/whatever, there's also no aerobatics instructor qualification/rating/whatever. Any ol' FI can legally teach you aerobatics. Whether that's a good idea, well...

What I've heard from EASA is that they are actually going to introduce some sort of aerobatics rating, with the associated aerobatics instructor rating. As far as I'm concerned that's a good thing, although I do hope that they're going to set up some sort of grandfathering scheme for current aeros pilots/instructors.

But until then, I'd look for an instructor who has extensive aerobatics experience, either display flying or competitions. LAROSA (loops and rolls on sunday afternoon) aerobatics are easy but even a proper barrel roll is more difficult and more dangerous than it may seem. Let alone things like reverse cubans, stall turns, tail slides, snap rolls and such.

Think of it this way. You're going to explore the edges of the flight envelope. Do you really want to do that with someone who's never been there himself, and beyond?

[Weekend Flyer]

If you liked the Super Decathlon, Western Air at Thruxton have one (180h.p. + Wobbly Prop...). Give them a call on 01264 773900 or take a look at their website at Learn to fly at Western Air,Thruxton (http://www.westernairthruxton.co.uk)

No, I don't work for them! (But I do rent and enjoy their Super Decathlon).

[Comanche250]

Backpacker, If Any ol' FI can legally teach you aerobatics What is the reason for the "No aerobatics" restriction on a UK JAA Instructors Licence and why is there a five hour course to remove this restriction?

[BackPacker]

Good question.

Here in the Netherlands I was taught aerobatics by someone who doesn't even have an FI ticket or similar. (But has loads of competition and display experience.)

After all, if I have my PPL I can legally fly aerobatics as PIC. So the person sitting next to me doesn't have to have any rating at all (not even a vanilla PPL) to give me "good advice".

Actually that's also the reason why that person could be paid for doing what he's doing even though he doesn't hold a CPL. He's legally not part of the flight crew, but a passenger. And I, as PIC, can pay a passenger for flying with me, can't I?

As I said, I don't think it's a bad thing that EASA will introduce some sort of aerobatics rating. It makes sense from a safety perspective, even if it only prevents cocky pilots from trying silly stuff in an 172 (see below). I just hope it's going to be rather sensible, maybe modeled after the AOPA syllabus, instead of the usual gold plating.

YouTube - Cessna 172 Loop, Aerobatic stunt. NOT SIMULATED (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=id3iVKvs1_s)
YouTube - Back Seat Fun in a Cessna 172 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNK9DiP1oV8)
YouTube - Couple of rented Cessna 172's being put through their paces. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxNgw8_y0nc)

[Zulu Alpha]

Loads of useful info here:

Buddies and locations (http://www.aerobatics.org.uk/training/buddy_main.htm) give one of the people on the list a call and they will try and give you as much help as possible.

The AOPA course is a good place to start as it provides some structure, but there is no rating as such (I think EASA are talking about one).

There is nothing to stop you just going up and having a go, but that's not really very sensible a) because its not very safe and b) you will probably waste a lot of time/money making mistakes.

One other thing to think about would be to try one of the Loop beginners days. The 2011 dates are not arranged yet but here is a link to the ones earlier this year

http://www.aerobatics.org.uk/sites10/LOOPBeginnersDay2010v1.pdf

When choosing a school/aircraft bear in mind that some of the more powerful aircraft will seem quite expensive. However the cheaper, lower powered aircraft will mean spending a lot more time climbing for height in between figures and hence more hours to get the same experience. I think the decathalon, CAP10 and Pitts S2A are ideal to start with. Robins and Cessna aerobats are rather underpowered.

Drop me a pm if you need anything else.

[djpil]

AOPA aerobatics certificates. Are these recognised worldwide?Not in Australia (not that anyone would care) as we've had spin and aerobatic endorsements for many years now.

At my club we're using the Robson book as a rough guide.
Good stuff.

[Vans Pilot]

Check out Phoenix flying at Shoreham EGKA for 8KCAB, Bulldog and Pitts S2A.
Top place

[hugh flung_dung]

Rich, in summary:
Currently there is not an aerobatic rating but this may change in 2012. You *can* self-teach, but IMnsHO you would have a fool for a customer and may be regarded as hazarding the aeroplane (which is against the rules)
The AOPA aerobatic syllabuses provide structured training courses but there is no requirement to complete a course. You could just do sufficient training to meet your needs but it's good to have a goal and passing an assessment at the end of a course always feels good (it might even give you grandfather rights in 2012, but that is TBC). By the end of the basic course you will be competent at the loop, various rolls, stall turn, ROT and simple sequences, but more importantly you will also be competent at recovering from cock-ups.
The AOPA certificates are not officially recognised - what is recognised is your logbook evidence of training and your practical ability on any checkflight if you're hiring an aircraft.
The training cost will largely depend on the capability of the aircraft and how easy it is to reach the practice area. A more expensive aircraft with a good climb rate might end-up costing less than a cheaper aircraft which takes forever to gain/regain height; likewise a cheaper aircraft based inside controlled airspace might be more expensive than a more expensive aircraft based elsewhere.
Bournemouth use an R2160 and a Bulldog; both are easy to fly but the Bulldog is the more pleasant. They offer the Basic and Standard courses.
Old Sarum use a Cap10c; a delight to fly and has the added entertainment of a wheel at the back and virtually unlimited inverted time. They offer Basic, Standard and Intermediate courses
A vanilla FI in the UK starts-out with a "no aerobatic" restriction on their instructor rating, after demonstrating ability and passing a 5 hour course this can be removed.
When deciding where to train: choose an aircraft that's sufficiently capable but easy to fly/land and make sure it can be easily hired afterwards. The usual stuff about instructor experience, paying up-front, etc apply of course, as alwaysSend me a PM if you want to know more about the aerobatic training at Bournemouth and Old Sarum (I'm intimately involved with both!).

HFD
(edited to add a couple of points)

[BillieBob]

A vanilla FI in the UK starts-out with a "no aerobatic" restriction on their instructor rating, after demonstrating ability and passing a 5 hour course this can be removed.Which is an entirely piontless exercise as the privileges of a JAA FI rating do not include instruction in aerobatics in the first place. Typical CAA stupidity.

[stiknruda]

Rich - it all depends on where you will be based in the UK - there are good instructors with suitable machines from Perth down to the south coast. HFD and ZA speak sense, Back-Packer's Cloggy-centric view of the CAA/BAeA does not always relate 100% accurately to reality.

Stik

[hugh flung_dung]

BB: leaving aside the paperwork and harmonisation aspects, where's the stupidity in requiring someone who is going to teach advanced skills having to be taught how to teach them? It seems like a reasonable requirement to me, and one that promotes safety and professionalism, as well as maintaining standards.

HFD

[Pitts2112]

If it's anywhere near you, Popham is home to Paul Ambrose, a very accomplished instructor (learned his teaching stuff as a 747 instructor pilot for BA). Popham is also a great location as the airspace is all immediately available for aerobatics (no transit time wasted getting to a suitable bit of airspace) and the atmosphere at the place is excellent.

I've flown with Paul a few times myself and can attest that he's not only a good pilot but an excellent instructor.

Here's his website: Special Flight - Pitts Special aerobatic display flying and training from Popham airfield Hampshire (http://www.special-flight.com/index.html)

[joelgarabedian]

I can second Phoenix Flying. I went there in March (after a recommendation on PPRUNE) after having my PPL for a few months looking to try some aeros. The Bulldog appealed to me because it doesn't require a tailwheel conversion first, which meant I could get straight on with the aeros :) Having said that, I have been thinking about doing my tailwheel conversion next Summer!

Rather than teaching the AOPA syllabus, they'll teach you the maneuvers you want to a very high standard, then clear you for those maneuvers and let you practice them solo. I thought a loop and roll was all I wanted to learn, but having flown them for a while, I think I might be ready for some new moves :)

Joel.

[BillieBob]

where's the stupidity in requiring someone who is going to teach advanced skills having to be taught how to teach them?No stupidity there but that is not what the UK CAA does. Since there is no aerobatic rating in the UK, any pilot is legally entitled to give aerobatic instruction, without the need for an FI rating. The stupidity is in placing a restriction on an FI rating that seeks to withold a privilege that was not included in the rating in the first place and that every other pilot in the country already has. The giving of instruction that does not lead to the issue of a licence or rating is a privilege of the licence, not of the FI rating.

If the UK CAA really wanted to promote safety and professionalism, it would have introduced an aerobatic rating years ago - the restriction on the FI rating would then have made sense and safety, professionalism and standardisation would have been promoted. As it is, we shall just have to wait for EASA to do the job for them.

[hugh flung_dung]

BB - all agreed.

HFD

[18greens]

Rather than teaching the AOPA syllabus, they'll teach you the maneuvers you want to a very high standard, then clear you for those maneuvers and let you practice them solo. I thought a loop and roll was all I wanted to learn, but having flown them for a while, I think I might be ready for some new moves

I'm moved to comment on this statement, mainly because its hard to see how anyone can teach any manoeuver without covering the aopa course. The course doesn't really teach aeros but what to do if it goes pears. (But if you can tell me how I'd be keen to know)

Anyone can belittle the syllabus because it has no perceived teeth (no exam - how can it be any good) but I doubt there is a serious aeros pilot that wasn't happy for the advice covering the basic ballistic UP recovery, spin training and how to pull out from an inverted VNE dive (roll before you pulll...) . Once that is over you can happily spend the rest of your life learning how to scew up (do) loops etc...

Oh and don't think I'm writing this because of the desire to exercise my removed no aeros instructor rating because other peoples aeros are scary...(mine are ace:)).

[hugh flung_dung]

18g: just to correct a slight error - the AOPA courses DO have a test at the end if you want to get the certificate ... in fact I'm doing someone's test at the weekend, weather permitting.
Also, it is possible to just learn to fly loops, wingovers and aileron/ballistic rolls - I've had several people do exactly that (but they also need to be able to recover from the inverted, vertical, spin and spiral).

HFD

[joelgarabedian]

Hi 18g,

I didn't explain very well! I should have said "they teach you maneuvers you want to learn, along with recovery techniques for when it all goes wrong". In the same way that HFD mentions, before being cleared to loop, I had to demonstrate competent spin recovery, recovery from a power on dive, spiral dive, and recover from some VERY unusual attitudes entered by my instructor (who taught me to use the Speed Unload Roll Pitch method).

Joel.

[Zulu Alpha]

If the UK CAA really wanted to promote safety and professionalism, it would have introduced an aerobatic rating years ago - the restriction on the FI rating would then have made sense and safety, professionalism and standardisation would have been promoted. As it is, we shall just have to wait for EASA to do the job for them.

What a load of b*ll*cks

Bringing the CAA or EASA in would not improve safety, it would just add a lot of expense and paperwork. The current scheme of self regulation under the eye of AOPA and the BAeA works well, why fix it if it isn't broken, especially as any "official" regulation will require significant funding to cover all the costs of administering what would essentially be an additional layer of paperwork on top of what currently happens.

[BackPacker]

The current scheme of self regulation under the eye of AOPA and the BAeA works well,

That's entirely the point. The self regulation under AOPA and BAeA works really well, but it's entirely legal to teach yourself (or anyone else) aerobatics outside the framework of AOPA and/or BAeA.

If EASA would bring in some regulation that somehow forces all aerobatics instruction to happen under a scheme that resembles the AOPA syllabus or BAeA proficiency check structure, it would have large safety benefits.

Maybe we could even have the same sort of scheme as the LAA has with regards to homebuilts/experimentals, where the CAA (or EASA) simply defers authority for this to AOPA/BAeA or similar organizations in other EU countries, and where the recognised mentors of these organizations are able to sign for aerobatics ratings and such.

[Zulu Alpha]

What's wrong with what we have already? Adding the CAA and EASA will not make it better or cheaper, so why do it?

Just because someone could go up and fly aeros unassisted doesn't mean that they will stop if its illegal. It will just invalidate their insurance. Why should all the responsible pilots be penalised because there is the possibility that someone might not be sensible.

If EASA would bring in some regulation that somehow forces all aerobatics instruction to happen under a scheme that resembles the AOPA syllabus or BAeA proficiency check structure, it would have large safety benefits.

I don't think this is the case at all it would not improve safety.

If we insist on regulating everything then should we have extra ratings on drivers licences to drive after dark, in towns, or when its below zero?

[BillieBob]

If EASA would bring in some regulation....Already done:

FCL.800 Aerobatic rating
(a) Holders of a pilot licence for aeroplanes, TMG or sailplanes shall only undertake aerobatic flights when they hold the appropriate rating.
(b) Applicants for an aerobatic rating shall have completed:
(1) at least 40 hours of flight time or, in the case of sailplanes, 120 launches as PIC in the appropriate aircraft category, completed after the issue of the licence;
(2) a training course at an ATO, including:
(i) theoretical knowledge instruction appropriate for the rating;
(ii) at least 5 hours or 20 flights of aerobatic instruction in the appropriate aircraft category.(c) The privileges of the aerobatic rating shall be limited to the aircraft category in which the flight instruction was completed. The privileges will be extended to another category of aircraft if the pilot holds a licence for that aircraft category and has successfully completed at least 3 dual training flights covering the full aerobatic training syllabus in that category of aircraft.

And

FCL.905.FI FI - Privileges and conditions
The privileges of an FI are to conduct flight instruction for the issue, revalidation or renewal of:
(f) a towing or aerobatic rating, provided that such privileges are held and the FI has demonstrated the ability to instruct for that rating to an FI qualified in accordance with (i) below; [i.e. an FIC instructor]

All things being equal, this will become law in April 2012 (Note the requirement for all training to be done at an Approved Training Organisation)

[Zulu Alpha]

I will feel terribly unsafe until April 2012 then!!:)

...and how much will all this cost the average pilot or instructor looking to get into aeros?

[stiknruda]

I'm neither an instructor nor an LAA Coach but I do "teach" aeros to suitable people.

So in the past few years, one (an RAF Jag Pilot) won the BAeA Championship. Sure he could fly, but he couldn't fly the maneouvers as required.

This year I've spent time with a tyro student-pilot who has just won the Aerobatic Cup at BFT.

As ZA says - let's not over-regulate this or having done the CPL exams, I'll have to charge the buggers!

I think that the AOPA course gives some structure but there are many capable guys that can tailor the course to your needs. The good courses all contain the same elements.

The only hard thing about aerobatics is the ground!

Stik

[eharding]

Please tell me EASA have also seen fit to explicitly define the term 'aerobatics' as denoted in the draft FCL legislation - because otherwise nobody will be able to obtain the rating, because there isn't a definition of what it covers...

Madder things have happened.

[Zulu Alpha]

(an RAF Jag Pilot) won the BAeA Championship

No he didn't...I did.:p

[Lister Noble]

You were very near the other day;)

[eharding]

No he didn't...I did.:p

Dipstick! :p

The RAF did make up for his disappointment by giving him some Spitfires and things to play with though.

[stiknruda]

I just baited the hook and ZA bit!!:E:E:E

Yes - you won, he came second but we had more fun on the way to and from that comp than you did! Including shooting down Charlie as he joined the circuit!

Ah Lister, was that Sun near your new village or just north of your old one? My DA is down to 50' I was at least 6 times higher than that!

[BEagle]

(1) at least 40 hours of flight time or, in the case of sailplanes, 120 launches as PIC in the appropriate aircraft category, completed after the issue of the licence

A typical piece of poorly-drafted ambiguous €urocracy. It isn't clear whether it's supposed to mean 40 hrs PIC after licence issue for all 'categories' (which means powered aircraft and gliders), 40hrs PIC or 120 launches as PIC applicable only to sailplanes, 40 hrs flight time after licence issue for powered aircraft...or what?

The AOPA Basic Aerobatic Course merely requires powered aircraft pilots to hold a PPL or NPPL.

As for the content of the proposed EASA course, there seems to be much Americanisation wordwise. WTF is a 'Lazy Eight' - and which particular definitions of a 'hammerhead turn', 'chandelle' or 'Immleman' are they considering?

[djpil]

The more I see about EASA the less I like it. People used to tell me that EASA had outcome-based regulations. This one doesn't even seem to be based on competency - 5 hours of instruction regardless of previous experience?

[BEagle]

It's actually '5 hours of aerobatic instruction', not 5 hours 'flight time'. So taxying, take-off and climb, transit, descent and landing time in such flights could not reasonably be considered to be part of these 5 hours.....:\

[rich_g85]

Sorry for not replying sooner, but thank you for all the useful information and recommendations shared in the thread.

Just to clarify, even once my PPL is finished I would never even consider strapping in and just 'having a crack'. I'd be looking for some formal training from an experienced and qualified instructor leading to some form of certification.

[alphaLaura]

I'm curious (and nervous) to know what happens for those who have not completed this 'course' at an approved training organisation? And what about the "syllabus" they mention? Surely the syllabus is a variable thing dependant upon what level of aerobatics you intend to fly.

:confused:

[djpil]

alphalaura, the UK CAA seems to be on your side - see page 2 of: http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/620/20100609CAACommentsCRDb1.pdf

Good point BEagle. Perhaps the 20 short flights in a Pitts would be a cheaper solution for me if ever I wanted to visit and fly aerobatics.

As with our CASA, I like the stuff at Powerpoint stage but then it all seems to go horribly wrong when they write the regulations.

[stiknruda]

DJP - "death by powerpoint!"

alphaLaura - not exactly clear what you want to know, most of the aerobatic posters on this thread (I GUESS) DJP/BEagle/P2112/ZA/eharding and self will not have done the AOPA course. I stand to be corrected - but regardless of that we've had quality instruction and we are still here.

In terms of competition level, all aeros comprise of the same components; roll, loop, stall turn, spin. Maneouveres are combinations of parts of the former list. The higher the category, the more complex the maneouvers become. Rolls can be axial or flicks(snap) - this increases the permutations somewhat!

The CAACI put on a good comp each summer - generally In Waterford. (I may have a medal!!)

Stik

[alphaLaura]

Stik - I also have not completed the AOPA course or similar and thats what I was questioning as I have x hours of upset/spin training which was not completed in a flight training organisation and proof of ability as recorded in my logbook based on whatever aero flights and the couple of comps I've done. I was questioning the syllabus for such a training course because, as you said, for higher levels, figures become more complicated. There are already 3 variants/skill levels of AOPA course.

I briefly toyed with the idea of resurrecting the CAACI trophy for 2011 and was scared off after discussing previous attempts with the original organiser :\