Gliders, recreational hazards......

[saveloys]

Question...Am I the only one who sometimes comes back from flying cursing at how invisible gliders are?
Why do they have to be white?
Looking for them when they are rear on, sideways on or coming straight at you is almost impossible. Only when they bank can they be seen clearly.

Answer... Glider pilots are to fly in circles banking steeply at all times from now on. This will keep them closer to their bases and keep the length of their flights to a minimum allowing us all a safer environment to fly in.

Comments from powered pilots?

[Genghis the Engineer]

They have to be a very light colour to prevent UV damage to the composites. There's no rule to stop them being bright yellow (for example), but it probably wouldn't help much.

Contrary to what many glider pilots may think mind you, there's no rule to prevent them putting a small air generator and some strobes on. Equally, there's no prohibition on their flying at a safe distance from other gliders, on flying normal joins and circuits at their airfields, or other innovations that would stop them scaring the rest of us from time to time.

G

[Saab Dastard]

Saveloy,

"Glider pilots are to fly in circles banking steeply at all times from now on."

That's exactly what they do - it's called thermalling ;)

SD

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Hoping and praying should never be confused with planning...

[Skylark4]

Ghengis, I am surprised at you. Have you been near a modern glider, on the ground I mean. "A small air generator" would probably produce more drag than the rest of the aircraft. I believe that a modern strobe could be driven by a battery for the eight hours required but an article about mid-airs in S&G a while back reckoned that they were not actually very effective.
Don`t forget to use your map. It will tell you where there are areas of intense Gliding activity and which sites launch gliders. If you avoid Gliding fields by a couple of miles, you will avoid MOST of the gliders.

Regards

Mike W

[Chilli Monster]

Saveloys

Look on the bright side - the average glider pilot probably has a far better look out than you as most of his flying is done by feel and audibly. The chances are he will have seen you long before you see him and will be thinking "I hope that p**t in the powered aircraft has seen me - I do have right of way!" but will be ready to get out of your way in case you haven't.

Yes - they are more difficult to see, but that is where proper flight planning comes in. See where gliding sites are near to your route. Come summer read the NOTAM's when the big cross country competitions are on. That way you can make yourself better prepared. It's all down to AWARENESS. Don't just look for the glider, look for the clues - sun glinting on their airframe is the biggy. Learn about what gliders do and don't need for cross country flight - that way you will have a rough idea of when they will and won't be out soaring.

CM

(And if you're wondering - I instructed on Gliders before getting a PPL, so I see things from both sides of the coin :))

[Genghis the Engineer]

Fair point Skylark, a battery system would be much more sensible, no doubt a small solar panel within the canopy would also happily trickle charge it, extending it's life and saving recharging, if not actually running the strobes.

Of-course gliding airfields are marked on the chart, but thermals aren't, which is where gliders spend most of their time.

G

[DB6]

Ha! Fight back and fly a Katana. They are just as invisible as gliders and they don't have to fly in circles so you can sneak up and scare the crap out of glider pilots. ATC at Dundee call them Stealth Katanas because they're so hard to see.

[Squawk 8888]

While working on my PPL there was an ultralight base in the middle of our practice area (the only class G airspace within 30 minutes of Toronto), encountered a genius there who had transparent wings http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/eek.gif

[Foxxy]

Saveloy

Open your eyes- improve your scan and try not to rely on your GPS so much, that way you can spend more time looking out the window in all directions, taking in the lovely scenary. But failing that, if there are little white puffy clouds out on the fair weather days you go flying, keep a good look out as you near them even if the base of the cloud is a few thousand above you, as this is where you are most likely to find a glider.

Between thermals we would normally cruise @ 120 kts in a glass ship with water, so dont be surprised if someone overtakes you either.

[The Nr Fairy]

The other advantage power has over gliders is that the options for avoidance are increased. Not only can you stay away from under cumulus and avoid in the lateral, but you can also descend as well - away from a gliding launch site the chances of meeting a glider below 1000' agl are slim unless doing a field landing or scratching about REALLY low to get away again.

[SKYYACHT]

As one who flies both, although not at the same time, I hasten to add, I believe that the eyes should be out of the office when VFR for at least 80-90% of the time.....Observe the circling birds, and developing bits of white stuff, and you are sure to find silent flyers about.....

Tailwinds
:)

[saveloys]

Do gliders religiously speak with any FIS/RIS providers? Thats surely the safest way to alert aircraft of a cluster of gliders in a particular vacinity.
Instead all we hear is,

"G-**** keep a good lookout, multiple pop-up traffic in your vicinity, believed to be gliders, no height information".

Translated as, "G-**** good luck, loads of gliders in your area, all over the shop and I know nothing about them"

[Foxxy]

Saveloy,

If we spoke to any FIS / RIS then forget anyone else getting a word in, as we constantly search for better lift and our position over the ground constantly changes depending on basic direction for next turning point as well as potential lift patterns!

I strongly advise you to pop into your nearest gliding club on a sunny day, and get your butt in a decent plastic 2 seater with a good driver in the back and go and have some serious fun.

You just cant beat a quick 300km triangle flight, dumping water ballast @ over 100kts 5ft off the deck on your return to the airfield, then retiring to the bar and reliving the whole flight in detail, about how daring and darstedly you evaded death from a 152 bimbling along in your way.

[Saab Dastard]

Foxxy,

"dumping water ballast @ over 100kts 5ft off the deck on your return to the airfield"

No wonder all the airfields are waterlogged!

;)

SD

[Foxxy]

Ooooopssss sorry about that!!

I only fly with El - nino in the tanks!

[AMEX]

I speak as someone who flies both powered A/C and gliders (ex instructor). This is how I try to do it. When descending IFR (with let's say a RIS and not in IMC) I will try to maintain a level above the Cu tops as long as practical. Someone previously said you sould pay a good look out when in flight and I truly agree, however not all the types of flying or A/C give you much time for that. Still I try my best but as begin to descend I begin to worry because I will certainly descend thru those nice fluffy Cu and there is no way anyone will be able to spot me. 170 Kts coming from above not a chance!!! I recently got reported 11 targets and only managed to see one, I guess very few gliders pilots saw me as well. It does require to be extra vigilant yet it doesn't seem to be much I can assure you. If we can try to understand how both worlds fly then that's another good way to prevent accident.
Just before I bore you with more, think about 2-3 years ago, a Airbus 320 collided with a G103 (or vice versa). Lucky escape because the glider and the Bus managed to land safely (not crash). It happened in France and I bet you it was a scary experience for all the pilots involved. to be fair this "see and be seen thread" applies at all level of aviation and it is only up to us keep it safe.

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If you can't save the engine...save the airframe :)

[This message has been edited by AMEX (edited 24 April 2001).]

[Foxxy]

Amex,

Unless you fly a jet with the fans at flight idle then we can hear you coming a mile off, however, fixing you in our sights is not always as easy due to being in a rate 3 turn trying to get the most out of the lift we are in.

In summer a lot of gliders will go up in the bowl of the cloud while still VMC, which is where 7 out of the 11 contacts will be which is why normally you will only see 2 or 3.

[AMEX]

Foxxy, a mile off is only 20 seconds away ;) It's because I have lots of time flying gliders and slowly beginning to get more hours flying aeroplanes that I am aware of both worlds requirements and limits. I guess if it wasn't the case I wouldn't worry so much.

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If you can't save the engine...save the airframe :D

[Foxxy]

Amex,

Your the best - happy thermalling.

[saveloys]

I can see both sides of what this thread has led to but lets go back to the original question. If UV is so damaging to the composites why aren't other aircraft affected so badly by this problem? Gliders must spend 90% of their lives in a trailer outside someones house so the few hours they are in the sunshine at the weekend can't really be that bad.

Besides, how many gliders can you count at Booker left outside all summer?

Come on you engineless wonders, dare to be different and get a whacky paint job done on your pride and joy. Mind you, I suppose it might ruin your chances of a subtle getaway when trying to escape after ruining a farmers crop.

[Reimers]

A really cool paintjob, that's what we (the twens in our soaring club located close to EDDH) always wanted and after some years of fighting for it we convinced the "general assembly" that a bright red Ka 8 with grey stripes was the best way to attract attention everywhere.
Sadly, some high-flyer planted this lovely glider on the roof of a lonely house located in a 1 by 2 miles field, and tha was the end to all attempt to paint (wooden) planes differently.

[Mr moto]

Saveloys.
How many Slingsby T-67's or Katanas do you see in exciting colour schemes?
Not many more than the gliders, eh!
I haven't flown a glider for many years but thats where I started. I think its quite safe to say that glider pilots are better with stick and rudder than power pilots. This thread illustrates that rather well.

Gliders 1 -Power 0.

Incidentally, glider folks, what are the statistics on spin-in accidents? Theres a topic on turning back after engine failure after take-off in TECH LOG.

[saveloys]

Mr moto

Unless I am missing some pages from this thread I didn't realise that the stick and rudder skills of glider/power pilots were being compared. No doubt glider pilots are more skilled in this part of flight, after all it's all you've got to think about.

Skills aside, I'm sure gliding is a great hobby. All I am getting at is that like children, gliders should be SEEN and not heard.

[AMEX]

It is quite obvious Saveloys that the only point of your thread is to wind people up. http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/frown.gif
No wonder if you don't get more response to that. Good luck anyway because it is funny to witness your desperate attempts (and they really begin to sound desperate).

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If you can't save the engine...save the airframe :D

[Foxxy]

Amex,

Hear, Hear - he's obviously a 100hr weekend wonder! oh, and for your info Saveloy the reason we dont paint plastic gliders, is because of vast temperature ranges the aircraft is likely to fly in:
Spain / Africa / USA + 42 degrees @ sea level, and in Scotland, minus - 50 degrees in wave @ 30,000 ft - a height that you will never get to, unless you either fly airliners / biz jets or have the skill to get a glider up that high!

And for the record 90% of the Farmers i have met on land-outs are extremely helpful, pleasant and are always interested in the sport- farmers would prefer gliders to land in their fields rather than Hot Air Balloons, due to the damage caused to crops with the basket dragging.

[Mr moto]

Its an airmanship issue, as is see and be seen.

[AMEX]

Foxxy matey, make it to the bash and I ll get you a round (guinness appropraite ??). will be interested to know where u fly from so if you feel like it email me.

Thumbs up Mr Moto.

[Gerry Hattrick]

Interestingly enough,while on this topic, the Australian Transport Safety Bureau (ex BASI) has recomended that "The Gliding Federation of Australia adopt measures to make all aircraft engaged in gliding activities more conspicuous". This came about ,with other recomendations, following an investigation into a fatal accident in South Aus. which involved two gliders and a Pawnee tug.In this case a single seat glider collided with the tow line which a two seater had just released from(because he saw him coming)and both the tug and single seater went in from about 1500 ft.Sadly ,both the tuggie and the glider pilot were killed.A good paint job may well become a reality.

[Toppers]

Saveloys, looks like you have a point old chap/chapess. Admittedly, gliding sites are easily avoided if a chart is studied carefully but the performance of modern gliders does tend to lead them well away from these marked sites.
I do find they are difficult to spot myself and have had several close calls but as someone mentioned above, chances are high that the "glider-man" saw you a long time before you saw him.
I've never been in a glider(550 hrs PPL A) but if anyone wants to kindly donate a trip I'm happy to fly to your base and see what it's all about!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Thrust Puppy]

y

[Nishko]

Saveloys,

It is clear from your comments that you are suffering from some sort of maturity/airmanship deficit.

I speak as a glider pilot and a commercial pilot in training, I feel compelled to say that the lack of understanding you have exhibited is precisely why any half decent glider pilot will have attained a far superior level of piloting and lookout skill than you are ever likely to.

When we are all supposed to be very good at what we do, it is a great shame (and concern) that conscientious and safe pilots should have to work that much harder to compensate for the lack of skill and bad attitude on the part of people like you.

The right of *any* pilot to fly where he/she likes should be directly proportional to their level of skill, understanding, and airmanship REGARDLESS of what type they fly. Sadly for you going on that basis you probably ought to remain in the circuit until you understand a wider range of the topics that affect flight safety as a whole.

As many very well clued up people have mentioned here, you need to understand the bigger picture and assess where you are likely to encounter gliders and when. Then, actually seeing then is the easy bit because they really are not hard to see if you know were to look.

By the way, do you also go around swearing at cyclists when you drive your car?

Happy lookout! :)

Nish.

[Foxxy]

Nish,

He seems to have been very quiet in his replies since a couple of reasonably well versed drivers have posted comments with substance.

Best Regards

Foxxy