CabAir vs European Flyers - Blackbushe

[portal]

I am currently looking to study for my PPL at Blachbushe airport. There are
two flight schools operating
at this location: Cabair and European Flyers.

I have decided that I would prefer to purchase a 'full training package' ie
45 hours instruction, Ground School etc.


both prices include VAT
------------------------

Cabair are charging £6,695 (Grumman 4 seater)
45 hours,
All Books,
Headset,
Insurance excess waiver
Ground School Included
(excludes landing fees so maybe an extra £300) -

European Flyers charge £5,265 C152
45 hours,
Insurance excess waiver
Ground School included
(including landing fees)

I can't work out why there is over £1000 price difference (I shall ring
Cabair and ask them). I had a test flight with Cabair in a Grumman and the
instructor told me that the Grumman had a clearer view of outside due to the
plane design.

My research indicates that Cabair schools are used by some of the major
airlines for scholarships etc; so it would appear to be a more 'corporate'
style flight school. Surely the fact that Cabair is a well know name does
not justify this price difference ?

On the other hand I cannot find much information about European Flyers on
the Internet; apart from one post where a guy recommends them, and their own
website http://www.eurofly.com

I would be most grateful if anybody could shed some light on my predicament.
Has anyone completed their PPL studies at
either of these schools ?

Any advice or comments will be gladly received!

Regards

Alastair

[Warped Factor]

Alastair,

Just a few thoughts, I'm sure others will add theirs.

I've never flown with Cabair and have never rented from European Flyers, though I have flown in their aircraft with others from time to time.

The books and headset at Cabair will probably account for a couple of hundred pounds.

I think you seriously under estimate the amount extra you will have to pay in landing fees. You will spend an awful lot of time flying touch and go landings during training, and every time you touch the runway you will probably have to pay a landing fee. You can easily do 8-10 T&G's an hour at £X per touch. It adds up very quickly.

I'd be wary of handing over all the cash up front to *any* flying training organisation. Better to pay in smaller lumps as you go, maybe buying blocks of not more than 5 hours at a time. Whilst both Cabair and European Flyers have been around for a while, you can't be too carefull.

Not that far from Blackbushe are White Waltham and Fairoaks. I personaly fly from WW and would be happy to recommend West London Aero Club for flying training http://www.wlac.co.uk/

There is also a very reasonably priced organisation at Fairoaks, The London Transport Flying Club, open to all I believe.

Cabair have always been expensive, they see themselves at the top end of the market and they've got to pay for all the gold braid the instructors wear :) A lot of their instructors are in fact sponsored by airlines and are using the instruction route as a means of building hours towards commercial licences.

But then that's true of a lot of instructors at other places as well, who are "self improving".

Like I said, I'm sure you'll get more input from others as well.

If I can be of any more help, drop me an e-mail.

WF.

[This message has been edited by Warped Factor (edited 04 March 2001).]

[rex]

Hi

I choose Cabair at Rochester. As you say not the cheapest, but when the weather has forced the closure of the rwy, cos its a mud bath, I have been fortunate enough to be able to fly from Biggin Hill instead. I did choose Cabair because it was a larger school, but thats my preference. All the crew at Rochester are really great. At the end of the day it just costs a lot of money.

Good luck and enjoy the flying

Rex

[DOC.400]

I did my PPL at Denham at Cabair ten years ago. It wasn't the cheapest way to learn to fly, but the proffessionalism of the instructors shone through all the time. All the staff I knew at that time eventually went to the airlines, both big and small.
Ya pays yer money..........
However, I'd second WF and recommend White Waltham.
And another thing -expect to pay more than they've quoted -this is for a MINIMUM hours -Few pilots only take 40 hours....So budget accordingly and enjoy!!

[Wrong Stuff]

I originally learnt with Cabair (Denham) back in the mid-80s. Since then I've flown with a couple of other cheap, independent schools/clubs and I'm currently revalidating my licence using one after a long layoff.

Cabair are undoubtedly expensive. What you get in return is quite a slick operation. In many ways this is geared to getting your money off you - but that's not all a bad thing. When I finished a lesson the instructor would always check that I had not just one future lesson booked, but enough booked ahead to ensure some continuity in the instruction. If the weather was too bad to fly he didn't just leave you sitting around, he'd do a ground school lecture instead. The upshot of this is they lead you through the process much more, providing support which ensures you don't fall by the wayside. If you start with Cabair, it would take some effort not to get a licence.

Other schools by contrast require you to do all the work. You have to make sure that your next 4 lessons are booked up before the slots are full. You're the one doing the leading - reminding the instructor what the last lesson was and keeping track of what needs to be done. They seem to require more hanging around, more persistance, more missed lessons throught u/s aircraft, but they can be a lot cheaper.

I'd guess an analogy would be - if you own a BMW no longer in-warranty, do you get it serviced by a main dealership or do you go to a good independent? If you're a dealership sort of (wo)man then Cabair are for you.

[simshield]

Portel you may want to have a look at the thread on the Instuctors Forum about the future of Cabair. I'd hang on to my money for now, as too many people have had thier fingers burned in the past...

[portal]

Thank you everyone for your replies.
Its rare to find a group of helpful people, rather - the norm is to get flamed etc (my experience anyway on USENET Newsgroups)

I am still undecided as to which school to use, although I am in commuincations with a gentleman who I hope may be able to shed some light on my situation!

I am aware of the thread on Cabairs future.

Naturally if I decided to go ahead any pay for a full course, I would do so on my credit card. So as to provide me with protection under the Consumer Credit Act (cant remember its exact name)

Basically I think I am correct in thinking that a credit provider is *equally* liable for any breach of contract,company going bust etc where the cost is over £100.

Anyway,

Thanks again for all your feedback everyone!
See you up in the clouds sometime maybe :)

Alastair

[UKPPL]

Portal,

There's a good reason why Cabair at Blackbushe will charge more for a PPL course than European Flyers do, it's to pay for all that extra fuel they burn in the huge circuit pattern they insist on using whilst training.... is that a AA5 or a 747 you are flying.....ho, ho!!

(only joking! Tho' those who fly at Blackbushe will know what I'm refering to. BTW I've absolutely nothing against Cabair and I'm sure they are a good training organistaion)

On a serious note, I agree with some of Wrong Stuff's comments, some students like to to be guided and spoon fed thro their PPL's, others are more self-organised.

I learnt to fly at European Flyers and did my night and IMC there. I still fly there every week. Although it hasn't the 'polish' of Cabair, this is reflected in the prices. In my opinion, it's a fairly priced club, with some good instructors. At the end of the day when you are doing your PPL it's the quality of instruction that really counts, I found this to OK at European Flyers and although I have had some minor gripes, 200hrs later I'm still going there

European Flyers also run a group share scheme for after your PPL, meaning you can carry on flying at a reasonable rate without the hassle of a syndicate ownership, on a selection of aircraft (C152, C172, PA28, PA34).

Good luck with your PPL and whereever you do go for your PPL, make sure you have fun!!.

[chipped prop]

A flying organisation is only as good as the guy teaching you to fly, from my humble experience a chap using a flying school as a stepping stone to a career in aviation may or may not be a good instructor for ppl training.I believe by feeding a flying organisation with money in dribs and drabs it gives you the chance to change schools half way through your training if you have unhappy experiences but of equal importance i have seen some good flying schools suddenly close down over the years through no fault of the instructors, dont put your eggs all in one basket.

[foghorn]

Remember that an AA5A is a bigger and more powerful aircraft than a C152 - another reason why Cabair is more expensive.

[arrow2]

UKPPL - I know exactly what you mean about the size of Cabair's circuits at Blackbushe!!Do I know you???

Alastair - I fly from Blackbushe, privately and not with the 2 schools, although I am a member at Euro Flyers. As long as you have the aptitude you will probably end up with a PPL at whichever of the 2 schools you choose. Cabair exhibit a more professional facade but you undoubtedly pay for this. Euro Flyers is more of a club environment but the instructors are just as well qualified and keen to fly. Have you visited? If not do so and then make up your mind. Remember that at Cabair you will pay for each landing (even though, as I believe each of their aircraft has a "season ticket" for annual landings at Blackbushe). I don't think this is the case at Euro flyers.

Good luck,

A2

[UKPPL]

arrow2

Don't know if we do, although we must have met?? I'm a member of the Euroshare group and go flying every week, weather permitting. I'm the guy who often takes his (screaming) 5 year old daughter flying with him.

Ring any bells?

[A and C]

I would not touch cabair with a barge pole after the way my wife was ripped of by them some years back ,the standard of instruction was OK but the management had put in place so meny "rules" that it ment that she was paying for trainning that she did not require cabair is as others above have writen above a cash extraction outfit of the slickest kind and befor you know it you will be paying far more than the up front price.

I can however recomend both clubs at booker and the WLAC at white waltham as places that can be trusted not to take advantage of those pepole who are new to aviation and maintain high standards both in flying trainning and business ethics.

[arrow2]

UKPPL, I will keep a look out for you and introduce myself. I fly G-BOJI and sometimes G-ATEF - Margaret in the cafe can point you in my direction - just ask her if Kevin is in! I will have to introduce my screaming 5 year old son to your screaming 5 year old daughter sometime!

A2

[This message has been edited by arrow2 (edited 07 March 2001).]

[The Nr Fairy]

arrow2 :

Sorry to divert the thread, but I flew a few hours in G-BOJI some years ago when it was owned by Aero's at Staverton. Still going strong, then, is she ?

[UKPPL]

Will do Kevin, I'm in this Sat afternoon flying G-BMSD.... weather permitting.

[arrow2]

UKPPL - won't be around this w/e (I have agreed to go to South Wales for some reason!) but will be the w/e after.

A2