Single-Pilot-Ops

[Transition]

Hi everyone,

I'm trying to gather as much information as possible about single-pilot-ops, particularly in Europe and the US, for an article in an aviation magazine.

Here are some questions that came to my mind:

- Is there a list of a/c that are approved for single-pilot-ops?
- Where can I find the regulations for crew certification and aircraft certification?
- As far as I understand, single-piloting is quite usual in the US whereas in Europe it is mainly seen as unsafe. Is that true? Where are the main differences?
- What are your experiences with single-pilot-ops?
- Any other ideas that I probably forgot?

Thanks for your help!

[I-AINC]

Hi, I work in single pilot operations across south Europe with a small single engine prop.

I know that in Italy you can't fly commercial in Single Pilot Operations, you must have a multi engine aircraft with 2 pilots.

You can fly privately with only 1 pilot.

For example, some small jets that can be fly by one pilot only are the cessna citation line: CJ1, CJ2, CJ3 and the new Citation Mustang (C510). I don't remember exactly if also the first Citation (C500-C501) can be fly with 1 pilot only (maybe 500 no, 501 yes).

You can also fly the King Air with 1 pilot.

How about the question regarding the safety:
Of course 2 pilots are better than 1 pilot only, you have to cope with every situation in flight: pilot incapacitation, bad weather, etc.
In Single Pilot ops you may encounter some trouble managing all this thing together.

This is my point of view, but I'm not a very experienced pilot, so I leave the words to the others :)

[BoilerUP]

Common/popular single-pilot turbine business aircraft:


Cessna Citation (501/551, 510 Mustang, 525/525A/525B/525C CJ series and 500/550/560 with a Single Pilot Waiver)
King Air 90-350
Beech Premier
Eclipse 500
Phenom 100 & 300
TBM 700/850
Pilatus PC12I'm typed and insured for SP ops in our CJ2+ but we typically operate with a crew. That said, I've done SP flights before - both with me the only person upfront and "legally" with a professional, ATP-rated pilot in the right seat who in the eyes of the FAA is simply a passenger. Flying the CJ2+ is about as difficult as flying our Cirrus SR22 - its not difficult at all, at least when everything is going right.

I'd say that SP ops aren't necessarily less safe than crew ops...they're riskier. What I mean by that is in most turbine aircraft there isn't a single point of mechanical failure that could cause the loss of the aircraft...except the pilot, in the case of SP operations. Combine that with the relatively low cost of a copilot on these light/very light jets ($300-400USD/day or $35-45k/year) and it only makes sense IMO for a professionally flown airplane doing Part 91 industrial-aid type flying to be crewed because of the mitigation of risk. There's also a good argument for a second pilot to be a captain vs. a copilot, so that the first PIC can take sick time, vacation, etc. without grounding the airplane for a period of time.

For Part 91 owner-operators...they can do as they please.

[johns7022]

OP: I have spent a career in single pilot ops...from small singles right up to flying under the single pilot waivers in the heavier, faster Citation 500s(Encore, Ultra, V, ect)

One good pilot is better then two mediocre ones. Certain pilots need 'help' to fly a plane...some don't. Some pilots are up against it as soon as they sit in the cockpit, some are really comfortable. I come from the school that when the engine goes out on take off, I don't want to explain, argue, discuss, debate, call and wait for a reply, fly through the flying right seater..

I'll just fix the problem....

Chief pilots hiring weak pilots, buddies, pals, kids, ect in order to control the pilots under them, will keep hammering the mantra that hiring the best 200 hour marsh mellows fresh out of flight school is safe...

It doesn't work....I think it's funny but at the higher levels, even airliners are being slated for single pilot ops......you only need one good pilot up there, not a bunch of kids and politicians...

[Pace]

Johns

The problem is we all think we are brilliant ;)

All you can go on is the stats which show a marked increase in accident rates for single pilot ops in jets.

The other point to consider is that the owners spend a fortune on two jet engines, back ups in case of a failure but some are happy to go without a backup for the solitary pilot.

I know of one pilot who flew single pilot all his life until insurance demanded a full crew. He blacked out over Europe not coming to until the co landed and medical attention arrived. That was food poisoning.

Pace

[johns7022]

Pace...imagine my sitting in your boss's office and he's wondering why he is paying for a copilot, and my boss isn't....

Are you really going to come in and start telling him about all the Citations crashing left and right due to single pilot captains?

[Uncle Wiggily]

Generally, you will find many of the forementioned aircraft operating single pilot under the Part 135 operations of the FAA in America. In Europe, these seem aircraft tend to be operated with First Officers. For example, in the US you could charter a flight on a Beech KingAir 200 with 1 pilot. In Europe the company chartering the B200 would have a pilot and co-pilot operating the charter.

I think in the US the term "First Officer" is bit more applicable to the position, whereas "intern" is the correct term for a First Officer in the EU (this is how airline mgmnt views the FO)This was not always the case; however things have changed in the last couple of years.

Best of luck with your article.

[BizJetJock]

Of course, a good pilot knows how to make use of whatever resource is in the right seat - be it none, a pax, a weak pilot or a real ace.
Anyone who thinks that they can't benefit from someone there is worse than mediocre, and therefore more dangerous than two mediocre pilots. :ugh:

[deefer dog]

There are many of us here who have (or rather had) Single Pilot Waivers for a variety of FAA types - especially the CE 500 series which would otherwise have required two crew. The fact is that while we may have gotten away with it a few years ago here in EU land, it aint the case any more - irrespective of whether we still fly an airplane on N reg. SPW's issued by the FAA aint worth diddly squat anymore outside of the Continental US. Period.

[johns7022]

Holders of single pilot waivers, submit their flight hours to the manufacturer, who then submit that info to the FAA...as does the training facility sends completion or failure of single pilot training to the FAA.

According to the person who managed the single pilot waiver info as Cessna in Wichita, only about 500 or so pilots have ever had the SP waiver, and that goes back to the 80s..

So when you say 'many of us have had waivers of a variety of FAA types'....not only is 'many' a false statement but the CE500 series are the only jet where you can get the SP waiver.

Now since the FAA issues these waivers and is ICAO, just like most of the world.....while they don't issue waivers in Mexico or Canada, they can't tell me I can't fly single pilot...not if they want to be ICAO.

Now I have heard France, grounding Falcons that don't have typed SICs, but that's France.....something tells me, if I flew around Europe single pilot in a Citation...the UK, Germany, ect would respect my waiver....especially if they want our FAA guys to come over and inspect their airports, approach equipment, airspace, investigate accidents, and accept your pilots coming over here without proper sim training and types(Australians)...proper maintenance signed off by certified mechanics(everyone) and insurance from god knows who from your country....

[NuName]

I resent your comments and I have to say that I operate on a FAA ATPL. There is nobody in my country that need, appreciate or wish for your "FAA guys to come over and inspect our airports, approach equipment, airspace, investigate accidents". We can manage quite well thank you, if it does become troublesome I will suggest EASA contact you for advice. In the meantime I can assure you that if you fly in another coutries airspace you will be subject to thier rules and jurisdiction, have you not heard of differences published by ICAO countries? Not only does France require type rated F/Os, so does all EASA land, and the FAA requires the same when operating outside the USA, wind your neck in and accept an uncomfatable truth, America does not rule the world, we all live here in harmony :) and repect each other.

[johns7022]

Actually we do rule the world...and let me tell you why..

We have industrial capacity and we make money....that means we make things, and provide things, and while your over there more concerned about how to pay for your mistress and picking out a nice wine for dinner, we are trying to invent some things, cure cancer and generally get crap done....

To each his own, but it's pretty stupid to ground a plane, because you think an SIC needs a type, when nobody else thinks he does....

It's just attitude on your part, really....and honestly, I don't know where the angst comes from....you'd be speaking German right now if it wasn't for us.

[HEMS driver]

Please ignore Johns7022. He has been booted off other aviation forums for the same type of comments.

http://www.smileyvault.com/albums/signs/smiley-vault-signs-048.gif

[emmad]

We have a major problem with illegal immigrants in the USA. Johns must be one of them.

[Cabin Dragon]

Johns7022, (complete) words fail me........

ju*mp*d-up t*ss*r ?

Coffee, Captain?

[fernytickles]

I've just come over from another forum, where someone recognised that (alter) ego. Read thru' the comments & laughed out loud. Thanks for the chuckle on a quiet Saturday afternoon :ok:

Where's that smiley about fighting on the internet when you need it..... :D

[HEMS driver]

interesting (http://www.propilot.us/aviation.htm) :rolleyes:

[GVFlyer]

Thankfully, Johns7022 is not representative of American pilots.

[AV8TOR97]

Or Americans in general....

[johns7022]

Kind of interesting how all these single poster, new members pop up to jump me......

[galaxy flyer]

Johns

WRT your opinion how foreign government's authority over your operations, please refer to FAR 91.703. When flying over a foreign nation, they certainly do have the authority to enforce their requirements on you.

GF

[johns7022]

Well is there something specific in Europe(UK, Germany, ect) that states that those flying under a single pilot waiver in a Citation is a no no?

[GVFlyer]

Kind of interesting how all these single poster, new members pop up to jump me......


Actually Johns, I've been here since October 2006. I normally just read and learn here, but your posts embarrassed me sufficiently, that I found it necessary to assert that you were not representative of me or other professional American pilots.

[johns7022]

Trying to get us all to believe you lurked for 4 years, and MY post brought to the brink...

Get real....another troll Single Pilot Hater....

[NuName]

As a mark of just how bored I am at 05:00 on a Sunday morning I will take the trouble to address johns7022. I am not convinced that I am not conversing with a retarded 6 year old but what the hell. The USA joined the fight in 1941, 16 months after it started and only then because of Pearl. The manufacturing you speak of occurs at the behest of the USA in other countries to the detriment of the indigenous population. The manufacturing you think you remember was an importation into the USA from Europe, which by the way, is where most of you originated from in the first place except for the indigenous (pardon the second use)population that have suffered greatly. Dont feel too bad, Britain done much the same thing, after all, your ability to pontificate to such an extent proves it. As I kneel to your greatness I wonder if being a Captain on a multi crew aircaft is more, or less, demanding when training a inexperienced, but good and concientious and humble pilot. :mad:

Footnote: I love the USA and its people, its a shame we all have to suffer the indignity of people such as "jons7022" to the extent that even his own countrymen feel the need to distance themselves from him.

[BizJetJock]

The clue is in the word "waiver" - it is an exemption from the requirement to carry a second pilot. The FAA only have authority to exempt you from any requirement in their own airspace, since they don't rule the world....:}

[wrxpilot]

Trying to get us all to believe you lurked for 4 years, and MY post brought to the brink...

Get real....another troll Single Pilot Hater....

Johns7022,

Apparently common sense has evaded you once again... If you'll notice the join date listed under the poster's name, you'll see that in the case of GVFlyer, he has been a member here since 2006. I've been a member here since 2007, and this is only the second time I've ever posted here.

I'd apologize to the rest of our international colleagues on your behalf, but I think it's quite unnecessary. It is quite obvious to all that you are not representative of pilots from the US, and are really just a sad little outlier.

It's quite amazing that you fail to grasp how quickly you become unwelcome in these aviation forums as soon as you open your mouth. Aviation is a very small community, and it is simply a matter of time before this kind of obtuse behavior will affect you professionally. Hopefully someday you are able to step back and do a self assessment before you cause some real damage.

[johns7022]

Another poster with 2 posts, but lurking for 4 years? Spoofed his join date...it's beyond 'TROLL' to follow a guy around the net then log in under 4 Avatars to build a 'consensus'. To do that might be a mod on these forums though...if that's the case PM me...

----------------

Bizjetjock - There are pilot waivers, maintenance waivers....other countries do it, we do it...the question is which countries respect each other's case by case judgment...vs simply grounding a plane because it's got an N number on it.

[msh168]

Just another professional American pilot jumping in to apologize for the words of 'johns7022'

Fortunately, his attitude and ignorance is in an extreme minority in the States. He most likely considers himself a great patriot, but he, through his vile words, is not.

This is also my first post here as well. I'm not even sure how long ago I joined.

[johns7022]

MSH168...your going to have to learn to spoof your post number as well as your join date.......another one post member jumping on me?

Gosh, I have a cyberstalker.....

[PURPLE PITOT]

Guess he doesn't like being jumped. Probably something else he prefers to do solo!

[beerdrinker]

Johns 7022,

Tell us, are you related to 411A?

[puddlejumpernva]

Just another professional American pilot jumping in to apologize for the words of 'johns7022'

Fortunately, his attitude and ignorance is in an extreme minority in the States. He most likely considers himself a great patriot, but he, through his vile words, is not.

This is also my first post here as well. I'm not even sure how long ago I joined.

Another poster with 2 posts, but lurking for 4 years? Spoofed his join date...it's beyond 'TROLL' to follow a guy around the net then log in under 4 Avatars to build a 'consensus'. To do that might be a mod on these forums though...if that's the case PM me...

I just wanted to check in and jump on the bandwagon. No real reason other than to feed the paranoia of someone having a cyberstalker. BTW, seems to me that 500 is an incredibly low number of SP waivers issued since the 80s. It really isn't that big of a deal here in the states. Any of the training providers will readily disclose to a customer that the exemption letter is valid only in the United States though. :=

Welcome, puddlejumpernva.
You last visited: 9th April 2004 at 12:03

[HyFlyer]

John's I wouldn't 'jump' you if you were the last girl on the planet......

Ignorant, unprofessional and offensive remarks with an arrogant attitude (you) are thankfully not the norm from our American friends.

Well done...you've identified yourself as the bad apple of the barrel.....

(Note also: longer period on this site, and also a few posts over the years...when a topic needs a comment. GVFlyer is highly respected professional from the US...and you'd be well advised to listen up to him...regardless of how many posts he's made here....)

[johns7022]

Hyflyer - You opinion means nothing unless you care to post your website and credentials, and come out behind your anonymous avatar......puddle.....1 post in 6 years?

Well I guess your somebody when people follow you around to bash on you....Puddle, your beyond cyberstalking and trolling.....

[fernytickles]

Any of the training providers will readily disclose to a customer that the exemption letter is valid only in the United States though.


Sorry to say, that is not actually correct. Last time I was at FSI, I asked about this, and they were unsure whether the waiver is valid in Canada. So I contacted Transport Canada, and eventually received written confirmation that it is valid there. We carry that document with us when visiting Canada, along with the waivers in case of a ramp check.

[Chicken Leg]

Well I guess your somebody when people follow you around to bash on you....Puddle, your beyond cyberstalking and trolling.....

Sadly, your comment would indicate that although you may well have industrial capacity....... meaning you make things, your capacity to use the English language, isn't quite so well developed......... meaning you're poorly educated!

[Transition]

Gentlemen, back to topic please...

Thank you.

[NuName]

Some of us find this very interesting, if you don't then don't read it or start a new topic that you do like, gentlemen continue.

Thank you :D

[bigKH]

Well said Nuname! Oi Johns. You're a C:mad:T.

Just thought I'd sink to your level.

[johns7022]

My letter and waivers never said 'US Only' and not only did I fly to Mexico and Canada, routinely talking to Customs, and their versions of the FAA...I was under the distinct impression there was 'reciprocity'.

Again, if the FAA here is going to buy off on foreign pilots, with no real type training, flying jets around here, they are going to have to buy on on single pilots flying around there.

If you really want to yank out and inspect the flight training, rating and inspection process here in the US vs many other countries, I am surprised the FAA is letting some of these pilots in...

So there has to be some 'give' on both parties...a certain amount of trust that each domestic agency is doing what they can to provide for safe air travel.

[emmad]

Before you make statements about training differences maybe you should look over the JAA requirements. Knowledgeable people on this board know exactly what the difference is. Shucks, in the USA a PRIVATE PILOT can just get someone to write down that they did the training, take that to the FAA and immediately they have an SIC type rating. Try doing that in Europe.

[galaxy flyer]

Johns7022

I train at a very busy training center and work with JAA TREs; most standards, evaluations, procedures used outside the US are far stricter and detailed. Written exams are not from a freely available database, but very detailed on a wide variety of subjects. Canadians take about 8 exams on everything from Aviation Law, Meteorology, Navigation among others.

Hell, the driving test in the UK is harder than any of our type checks.

GF

[de facto]

Jhon,

As an ex FAA licensed ATPL single pilot (no Autopilot) turbo prop Captain who flew SA227 and Be1900s (if one broke down Id just jump into the other type), I hope your Cowboy shinny belt will remain so for bit longer for the sake of your passengers.

As a current JAA airline Captain, I would like to tell you that FAA training is poor to say the least.
Your written exam is a joke and its merely enough for one to survive in your single pilot ops.

Good luck and I hope you will one day meet Captains that may enlighten you what being a pilot is all about.

[mattman]

@ deFacto

I do value your opnion but I think its grossly unfair to put the stigmatism of FAA against JAA, because your basically saying there is nothing better than JAA (EASA). In reality it is a basic ability of the the crew member, crew, operation, owner, company or authority to regulate oneself to the point of greater Professionalism.

There are great crews I have worked with and really atrocious ones and these have ranged from a few diffrent state liceneses. A guy with, lets say, a Nigerian ATPL could be the most professional person you have ever worked with even though the states regulations, training requirments are poor.
This discussion could have gone the other way with a JAA type saying the same thing.
Yes I agree there is huge diffrences in regulatory requirments for crews, but it does not say that everybody is cut from that cloth.
If this was the case then countries would exclude airlines from flying into there airspace unless they meet there requirments.
There are plenty of crews that fly on diffrent lincenses flying in diffrent countries doing great jobs.
Emirates is a case in point, where there are a multitude of diffrent types flying as crews and doing a fantastic job.

This discussion is more about a state of mind and how somebody does there job.
I do not agree with this gentleman (as is my right) that the safety of his operation will be greatly improved if they could fly with two crew.
Its up to him to change his mindset to understand what he could be doing to improve the safety of his operation and along the way download his experiance onto a guy that could use it effectively.

What happens one day when he does have to leave the operation, will the owner expect the next person to fly by himself, why not be a part of change that is increasing the safety of our industry and show the regulators that we can do our jobs proffesionally with out there 100% oversight.

This is my opnion I am not getting involved in a mud slinging contest.

[Pace]

As a current JAA airline Captain, I would like to tell you that FAA training is poor to say the least.
Your written exam is a joke and its merely enough for one to survive in your single pilot ops.

DeFacto

I cannot let you get away with this :E Yes the EASA ATP is much harder to get but are you saying that EASA ATPs are better than FAA??? Harder does not always mean better.

i am afraid that if you are saying so then you are wrong! A major study was carried out to compare the two. The conclusion was that while taking different training paths the quality of the end result was the same, the safety stats between FAA and EASA trained ATPs are the same.

This caused much dissapointment in EASA land who were looking for justification in their "higher standards" to diminish the quality of FAA ATPs.

ALL regulations in aviation should be based on one thing and one thing only and that is SAFETY sadly they are not!!! If there is a known safety hole in the stats then plug it.

As far as single pilot Ops there is infact such a safety hole in the stats where the accident rate increases with single pilot ops in jets.
Enough said

Pace

[de facto]

Guys,

I was not clear in my post.

I meant that the training i received to operate in single ops (looking back at it) was poor to say the least....(flight training in actual aircraft,as fun as it was..,)and that the FAA ATPL written is,all can admit,not a selection but just a tick in the box.
I dont compare FAA to JAA as JAA dont allow single pilot ops in Aircraft that do require a type rating.(>5.7t).

[NuName]

A tick in the box maybe, but it must be the correct box, no? As Pace has already pointed out, there have been many attempts to show the superiority of JAA/EASA and they have all failed. It is quite obvious to the unbiased and informed that it is all about preserving European based training that would be lost to the USA due to weather and cost. There is no documented evidence of substandard performace by FAA pilots as compared to JAA/EASA. Or visa versa for that matter.

[NuName]

Sorry if I'm being a bore but consider this:
I got 100% in DC electrics in the UK. Question: Can you hold in a trip free circuit breaker? Ah, well, yes I could but er might not be a good idea though. is it yes, no or just downright ambiguous? The answer was no by the way, its things like this that make the European writtens harder, does it make you better? I think not.

[johns7022]

Well if we are going to go down the path of discussing who has the 'toughest testing' as a way to weed find the best pilots...I personally can't attest to JAA vs FAA....and I am not sure many can, simply put, that unless you took all the FAA ratings, then moved to Europe and they made you take all the written and flight tests all over again for JAA...then NOW we can really compare.

My ATP test started off flying in a twin to an intersection hold using one KX155 NAV to flip back and forth between two VORs for the entry and hold...and doing single engine go arounds...as the examiner stated 'he wanted to separate' the wheat from the chaff..'

Talking to other ATPs...telling me that they flew to their holds watching the little aircraft on the moving map fly to the little hold depicted....certainly told me that having good 'situational awareness' is not a skill the Feds seem to care about anymore..

Either way...in a world of 200 hr FOs being hired to right seat airliners and such...let's not get too worked up about 'how tough the standards are'......

My feeling is this...if you want to find a pilot worth his salt...walk the pilot out to the ramp on a zero zero day....point him to the C172, with one com and and one nav, no gps, and tell him to fly over the hills, shoot that approach, buy some gas, come back....you'd be surprised how many guys won't do that...

[Pace]

My feeling is this...if you want to find a pilot worth his salt...walk the pilot out to the ramp on a zero zero day....point him to the C172, with one com and and one nav, no gps, and tell him to fly over the hills, shoot that approach, buy some gas, come back....you'd be surprised how many guys won't do that...

Johns

With Zero Zero I dont think ANY will get back :ugh: Especially with one nav and one com one vacuum pump no anti/deice etc

Pace

[NuName]

Everyone here knows you would not know a pilot worth his salt if he jumped up and bit ya. I for one would not want to fly with an idiot that would accept "point him to the C172, with one com and and one nav, no gps, and tell him to fly over the hills, shoot that approach, buy some gas, come back" just to try and prove something to an even bigger idiot.
Why can't you get it through your incredibly thick skull, you have no credibility here. :ugh:

[johns7022]

So a little fog bothers you guys?
You forgot how to shoot an ILS this morning?

Either we have 14 year olds with no real world flying experience posting on here, or guys that can't take off without triple EFIS, 12 Navs, 9 coms and 4 engines...totally past it....

Thanks for making my point gentleman. You know, there are some clouds out there right? Every day isn't sunshine.

[Ultraman]

Quote:

My feeling is this...if you want to find a pilot worth his salt...walk the pilot out to the ramp on a zero zero day....point him to the C172, with one com and and one nav, no gps, and tell him to fly over the hills, shoot that approach, buy some gas, come back....you'd be surprised how many guys won't do that...



I won't do that. Guess I'm not worth my salt.

[NuName]

You had better hope that your true identity does not become known as you will need a career change. Or maybe that has already started to happen, are you single pilot because no one will fly with you? Divorced? Never married? Sad, non team player with a inferiority complex? :{

[johns7022]

NuName: If your going to threaten peeps on the net, beware of the consequences...you just might have to meet up with them in real life.....

For the other's in here that won't hop into a single on a foggy day...just how do you think your last package from Fedex got to your house......seriously...you guys need to wake up....

[Transition]

Dear Mr NuName,

this is my topic, if you'd be so kind to read the first post.

Thank you.

[NuName]

johns7022
Your right about one thing, there is some waking up to be done, on your part, I've heard it all before, I'm right and the rest of the world is wrong. I have no problem meeting with you, there were no threats involved only statements of fact and my own personal observations.

Transition
These forums are open to members to comment on the subjects raised, this can lead things in a direction that was not anticipated, if you don't like that then don't post or your going to have heartache thats out of your control.

[Francis Frogbound]

Drifting slightly back towards the topic......

I used to fly a Citation 2 and a King Air around Europe single pilot and it was the hardest work I have ever done in aviation, especially in winter. At those times when everything speeds up and you are running out of hands/feet eyes and other parts I would have given many things to have a competent pilot sitting next to me to share the load.

Now I fly SPIFR helicopters and mult-pilot aeroplanes around. Technology has moved on so far that the aeroplane would be quite simple to fly single pilot, until the systems start to fail. The helicopter has a full glass cockpit and an astonishing autopilot and makes mincemeat of serious IFR flying. but it is the equipment on board which allows that.

Beech now put a good glass cockpit on the KingAir which probably helps SP ops, but when I think back to the fit on the old Citation I wonder how I ever coped, especially when I was tired, not feeling at my best or in a hurry dealing with last minute changes. (and lets face it, if you can afford to tool around in your own jet you expect the world to change to your whims, not the other way around.)

Finally for Johns7022, I have flown a "zero/zero" approach in a 172. It was into London Heathrow on my nephew's FliteSim programme, just to prove to the little horror that a "real pilot" can do anything a play pilot can. Give me that 172 scenario for real and I will be first in the airport coffee shop.

FF

[NuName]

I nearly wrote Francis Fogbound :) I know what you mean, I had 3 years in a C421 as single pilot in Europe many years back, I then moved on to a CE501 flying with the owner, it would have been easier single pilot believe me. Eventualy he allowed me to bring another ATPL into the picture, life became much more enjoyable. The 421 was much more demanding than the 501 ever was, now I can be a little more choosey about what I do, I would never go back to single pilot operations, IMHO there is simply no justification for it, I only done it as I had no money and it was the only position available to me at the time. The phrase "old bold pilots" springs to mind.

[Francis Frogbound]

NuName;

At least the jets go on top of the worst of the weather! A pressurised piston tends to sit in it all the way, gathering ice as it goes.

I know what you mean about the owners though, now there is a recipe for cockpit bad temper and chaos.

FF

[terryb99]

"deefer dog

There are many of us here who have (or rather had) Single Pilot Waivers for a variety of FAA types - especially the CE 500 series which would otherwise have required two crew. The fact is that while we may have gotten away with it a few years ago here in EU land, it aint the case any more - irrespective of whether we still fly an airplane on N reg. SPW's issued by the FAA aint worth diddly squat anymore outside of the Continental US. Period."

How about in Asia?


http://www.qtl.co.il/img/copy.pnghttp://www.google.com/favicon.ico (http://www.google.com/search?q=Specifically,%20)http://www.qtl.co.il/img/trans.png

[johns7022]

I can't count the times I have been to Canada single pilot...never had a problem, or really even a comment...

[galaxy flyer]

John

Note: he is talking about the EU!, not Canada.

GF

[johns7022]

When he posts up his single pilot waiver, I'll post of up..until that time...this is a non issue...

[terryb99]

I really did not mean to start a war here, :)

I was just curious is it just the EU that does not recognize the single pilot waiver, or has that spread to other parts of the world.

What about the Citation I/SP and II/SP? Are waivers required for those, or are they single pilot "out of the box"?

[NuName]

You have to do a single pilot check ride.

[BoilerUP]

The CE501 and CE551 are type certificated for one pilot.

[3pins]

Any aircraft over 5700kg requires 2 rated pilots in Europe. spw does not help. I used to fly the Citation Encore on a spw until we found out that it was not legal. Even FSI did not want to do the spw training if they new we where operating in Europe, think that says everything??

[tommoutrie]

CJ3 and CJ4 are over 5.7T and are single pilot aircraft. I think its just to do with the single/multipilot certification.

I'd be interested to see the statistics on the safety record of single pilot type jets operated single pilot and see if it is demonstrably less safe that operating those aircraft two crew. I can't think of any recent serious single pilot instances in jets but there have been a few in single pilot types operated multi crew. I've never understood the logic of allowing single pilot operations in a kingair or similar but not in a CJ or a Premier1 - both of which are much simpler aircraft with better avionics (generally) and much better OEI performance.

Its difficult to compare like with like when analysing accident statistics so I don't know how easy it is to draw conclusions regarding the relative safety of single pilot flying.

[Pace]

I'd be interested to see the statistics on the safety record of single pilot type jets operated single pilot

I dont have the stats in front of me but remember seeing previously that the accident rate increases dramatically in single pilot ops hence the large hike in insurance costs for single pilot operated jets.

Pace

[NuName]

IMVHO two competant crew in an emergency has just got to be a better scenario, even if only for the fact that one would be flying the aircraft and the other taking care of comms and checklists not to mention that 2 good heads are better than one and 4 eyes better than 2. Did I just say even if only? :cool:

[Chinchilla.612]

Pace,
Not always such a large hike in the insurance for single pilot ops.
The qualifications and experience of the pilot also form a large factor in it, but in fairness there can be some comparatively low houred inexperienced pilots in single pilot jets as owner pilots. That also probably has some bearing on the accident rates as well I should imagine?
When an owner employs an experienced captain to fly the aircraft the step up in premium is not as steep as one may imagine when compared to a 2 crew operation.

In my opinion, two crew is not always a safer or easier option than single though, as when training a new first officer or new captain the workload can be even more than just flying on your own. For the most part though, 2 pairs of eyes are generally more likely to notice an error etc.
There's always exceptions and different ways to look at things, but at the end of the day we all just have to follow the legislation laid down for us. If we intend to cross international borders (johns7022) then I guess that means we have to abide by the law of those countries also (whether you agree with them or not).

Have a nice day :ok:

[tommoutrie]

hello Pace

Interestingly enough the last two companies I worked for were not charged any excess premium at all for single pilot operations. I have most of the UK statistics and incident reports for single pilot and two crew operations in jets and because of the extremely low number of incidents its very hard to draw any meaningful conclusions. The biggin hill incident and all the less serious periphal incidents from commercial operators massively skew the figures and if you were to draw a direct conclusion from the stats you would have to say that two crew is more dangerous than single crew which even I would agree is a bit ridiculous. Personally I don't find single crew ops any more taxing than two crew ops and would say that the biggest loading on me as a pilot is when I am line training or checking another captain. Also, the first few sectors line training new FO's who are learning to operate the aircraft can be a bit of a load - I usually get the FO to just handle for the first 15 sectors or so to get to grips with the aircraft and this can put a bit of a load on the line trainer.

I'm just not sure that the evidence that single pilot ops is more dangerous than multi crew ops is as clear as the CAA would have us believe. And if it was that clear I think a lot of king air operators would have switched to multi pilot operations a long time ago.

and I'm not trying to be contrary - I'm genuinely interested in the relative risk

Just as an aside.. I've done roughly 1800 sectors in CJ's. I've committed two level busts, both of which were whilst line training and both were while line training another captain and I MOR'd both of them (they were both my fault). I haven't had any incidents at all flying single pilot other than systems failures but I don't think that proves a lot because I fly multi pilot a lot more than I fly single crew.

[johns7022]

Pace...please don't perpetuate the myth that single pilot ops are dangerous and expensive...

I was named on 5 Citations at one time as a Single Pilot Captain...and everyone's insurance dropped...which is one of the reasons they wanted me on board...insurance rates are dependent on the pilot background, ratings, and experience.

As far as accident rates...those operating under the exemption/waiver...not the single pilot type enjoy about the lowest accident rate in the industry...the only guys crashing jets single pilot are the biz owners....not the pros.

[tommoutrie]

johns we all get it - you are chuck yeager..

for everyone else..

does anyone have any references for confirmation bias orientated incidents have exacerbated a problem (interesting to read the Kerry incident thats being talked about on here).

A proper discussion regarding multi-pilot/single-pilot ops would be useful. Personally I don't think its easy to state with absolution that one is safer than the other. Some of the inherited wisdom from larger, multi crew aircraft with far more complex systems does seem to get forced on aircraft where that type of operation seems like overkill.

..who knows.. its all a load of bollocks...

[Pace]

I can remember seeing the stats prob FAA that single pilot ops increased the accident rate dramatically but as someone else stated this may be due to PPLs flying CJs in FAA Land.

There is no doubt that a competant FO is a safety factor and a bonus when the going gets rough.

From experience a low time or inexperienced FO increases the work load above SP as you are forever checking them for mistakes or rectifying those mistakes.

Pace

[clivewatson]

Oh Johns, would you please be kind enough to let me have your autograph? I'll PM you with my address....also my girlfriend wants your phone number - you are her hero.

I along with MANY others flew most of the Citation 500 series under the SPW waiver, but as soon as the authorities in Europe wised up to the fact that it was not legal outside of North America we stopped.

I'm pleased we did too - it's much more fun downroute.

[johns7022]

Sorry guys I am not taking the bait...If I hop in a plane by myself...that's doesn't make me arrogant, it means I passed the SP ride. Just saying..... I don't run around and slam test pilots, guy's commanding the space shuttle, Bush pilots that land on ice...I just do what I do... So if you want the facts of single pilot operations in a Citation..you just might consider asking someone that is actually doing it.......vs listening to the guys that feel there is some built in conflict between crew concept and SP ops...there isn't......it's manufactured by some guys, so insecure of their own abilities, leaning heavily on cockpit gear and crew members to get them through a flight...

[tommoutrie]

well I'm doing it tomorrow morning so I'll ask myself.

Tom.. How do you find single pilot ops?

Tom.. Slightly less fun downroute but otherwise very similar. Big houses, little houses, don't hit the hills etc

Tom.. Thanks for the interview

Tom.. No problem. Nice to have someone to talk to.


biggest problem in single pilot ops is not having a colleague to phone my room in the morning and ask where the hell I am.. night all

[Chinchilla.612]

Tom,
Nice little interview with yourself there.
Tell me the GMT time you want woken and I'll make sure you're up........just like the old days lol. Of course that is dependant on it not being too early in the morning (also like the old days).
Make sure you leave your mobile on loud though eh old bean :ok:

[johns7022]

You guys know there is significant training difference and checkride standard between those that get a King Air 350 or CJ single pilot type and that of a Single Pilot Waiver in the two pilot jets, like the Encore...right?

[NuName]

From some of the posts here I guess it means its easier, no one to screw up your perfect performance. :ok:

[Chinchilla.612]

Johns7022,
The biggest difference of course is that the King Air and CJ* you mention can still be flown single pilot on both sides of the pond (* as long as it's not public transport).
Yes training is different for the exemption to fly multi pilot types single crew as the flightdeck is not so conveniently set up to cater for the missing person etc. The checkride standard, however, is hopefully the same as you need to demonstrate your ability to fly the aircraft within the prescribed tolerences in both examples. I agree that meeting those standards may be harder on your own than as a crew in some situations.
So I guess I partly agree with you, but would not say it is a significant difference in my opinion.

[Aero Mad]

Hi all,

If nobody else has mentioned it there's Aurigny in the Channel Islands with its single-crewed Trislanders. Maybe not for too much longer (another 5 years? - the Tri is 40 this year) but still going strong.

AM :)

[BoilerUP]

You guys know there is significant training difference and checkride standard between those that get a King Air 350 or CJ single pilot type and that of a Single Pilot Waiver in the two pilot jets, like the Encore...right?And what exactly would those training & checkride standard differences between, say, a CE-525S type rating and obtaining a CE500 SPW, be again?

[johns7022]

C525 vs C560

Two weeks training in both, at the end of the C525 you go home with your C525sp type...which is valid forever...

At the end of the C560 training, you get your type...your crew mate goes home to fly in a crew...you now start another week of SP training...you now demonstrate everything possible as a single pilot, including raw data single engine approaches, ect....

Your first SP type, has to be done in the aircraft, not a sim...which means that if you fail, about a 50% failure rate, means coming back a month later...and doing the whole flight again...not in a sim and do the failed portion after having a cup of coffee in the lounge.

The SP type is only good for a year..it expires...recurrent training is not 2 days... it's another week, and you take another SP type ride again...you don't just show up, like most recurrent training...you do this every year...let this lapse...and you get to do this in the plane again...

High failure rate, because of a first time in the plane...sometimes the FAA comes along for initials which can turn this ride into an all day deal...

If you get the SP waiver, you send off all your hours, every trip logged to Cessna, who sends all this info, including pass no pass training records to the FAA.

Only 120 or so pilots on earth have the exemption every year....roughly 500 pilots have ever had the exemption..with most not exercising SP privileges....they just do the SP training as recurrent...but have a copilot...

So the difference is because the FAA has this phobia once you get into planes past the 12500 lb limit...so when you start getting close to 17000 lbs, and the speeds his . 77...they want the training and records requirements.

Now the Premier I, might be light but it's fast. .80 and has some sweep in the wings...the weight got this past the Feds to stay with a single pilot type...not exemption...

CJ4s kind of break the rules, in that you can get the single pilot type and be heavier then 12500, but I suspect because it's not a speed demon, that might have something to do with it...

The SJ30 is the plane I want to fly....

[3pins]

Johns7022

Do you agree that operate on a SPW is illegal in Europe on a N reg Cessna Encore? (and all the other countries, whos rules are tougher then the FAA, in this case regarding aircrafts over 12500 lbs)

Seems to me that operators/pilots still breaking this law, I did for quite a few years on the Encore, until I was convinced by Flight safety funny enough :O
Our insurance company was very happy to insure me for years, but then suddenly they changed there minds.
And I know now that incase something would have happened, they would never had paid out (they even admitted that themself afterwards)

Happy flying

[deefer dog]

Johns7022,

I don't recall having to use superhuman skills to pass the course and SPW check ride. Maybe you found it more difficult than most, so assume that you possess such superior skills.

Anyway, as has already been pointed out, this FAA waiver has no legal effect while operating in Europe, and that is why most of us here hired co-pilots, and sold our alarm clocks.

[johns7022]

I find it fascinating how many people fly single pilot in Citations with waivers, in countries that never issued them and now talk of this subject like experts. Ahh, the internet...everyone can be who they want.

[NuName]

Ah! like flying in Canada I guess, now who was that hmmmmn.

[galaxy flyer]

This whole SPW thing is willy-waving at it's worst. Any transport category plane flying passengers, privately or for revenue, should be flown by TWO pilots, as evidenced by the fact the SPW is an FAA-only way around there own rules! It is only possessed and used by a few, subject to expensive requirements that negate any cost savings. Human failure is the root cause of 85% of accidents and the only means of reducing that fact is two pilots using good CRM skills.

I say that with 1400 hours of tactical fighter time and 2500 hours in the CE-500 series. The tac fighters are considerably more complex machine than any Citation and the mission elements are not even in the same ballpark.

Is it any wonder why only the FAA allows this operation?

GF

[BoilerUP]

C525 vs C560

Two weeks training in both, at the end of the C525 you go home with your C525sp type...which is valid forever...

At the end of the C560 training, you get your type...your crew mate goes home to fly in a crew...you now start another week of SP training...you now demonstrate everything possible as a single pilot, including raw data single engine approaches, ect....I "demonstrated everything possible as a single pilot" during me CE525S initial, including OEI raw data approaches - it ain't exactly hard for a professional pilot and even less so for anyone with any previous experience in 500-series Citations.

Your first SP type, has to be done in the aircraft, not a sim...which means that if you fail, about a 50% failure rate, means coming back a month later...and doing the whole flight again...not in a sim and do the failed portion after having a cup of coffee in the lounge.I had a good friend get a CE525S type rating, with his training and type ride in the actual airplane, in TWO DAYS. Granted he had a CE500 type and a couple thousand hours in it, but again - not exactly requiring of Bob Hoover airmanship. The guy I fly with also did his CE500 training & type ride in the actual airplane - but that was a 7 day initial.

Only 120 or so pilots on earth have the exemption every year....roughly 500 pilots have ever had the exemption..with most not exercising SP privileges....they just do the SP training as recurrent...but have a copilot...

So the difference is because the FAA has this phobia once you get into planes past the 12500 lb limit...so when you start getting close to 17000 lbs, and the speeds his . 77...they want the training and records requirements.

That "phobia" you refer to is called Part 25 Transport Category Aircraft certification requirements, vs. Part 23/Commuter Category certification requirements.

CJ3 has a MTOW of 13880; the CJ4 you mention is in the 17k weight class with a MMo of 0.77M - faster than any 500-series airframe.

Premier II has a proposed takeoff weight of 13.8k lbs. HBC still plans for it to use the RA390S type rating of the Premier 1/1A, so no "exemption" will be required.

The Phenom 300 has a MTOW in the 17-18k lbs class and 0.78 MMo , and it too has a single pilot type rating with no offered or needed exemption.

500-series Citations with MTOW above 12.5k lbs are legacy airframes with legacy cockpit designs certified under Part 25, hence the need for a waiver from two-crew operations - these other airframes are Part 23 or 23 Commuter Category certified with cockpits designed from the scratch for single-pilot operations.

But by all means, please don't stop thinking jumping through the training hoops for a SPW means you're a "better" pilot who gets more stringent checking than anyone flying a modern SP jet...

[tommoutrie]

I find OEI IMC instrument approaches quite hard.

goddamit I'm rubbish at this game

[johns7022]

A little too much insecurity in here for my taste...just stating the facts gentlemen....I don't fly space shuttles, nor do I land helicopters on oil rigs in storms......just fly Citations....if you have a problem with single pilot ops...take it up with the Feds.

[jordanlive]

continuing on with this debate! lets say for example that i get a type rating on a citation mustang under an FAA certified TRTO in the United States! But i will be flying that aircraft in the UK under and November reg! excluding commercial operations! if i want to fly that aircraft under IFR rules at night or day PRIVATELY am i subject to the same constraints as under commercial rules?