Potential SAS shutdown?!

[NEDude]

My girlfriend works for SAS in Copenhagen and they were all called in for a meeting today and told the airline may shut down this weekend unless there is a new pilot agreement by noon on Friday due to investors demands.

Keeping my fingers crossed for her sake, and for the sake of everyone that works there.

[Griffin]

Ehhhh.... "pilot agreement" ? All the fuzz is about the CAU (cabin union) making demands instead of facing the truth.

[Yabadoo]

The owners (read: Scandinavian governments) have demanded that the flying staff deliver 500 million kr in cost cuts and from what I understand all union except for the Danish cabin crew union (CAU) has delivered...

Time for a reality check CAU?

Yabadoo

[NEDude]

I may have been mistaken, she said "crew" and for some dumb reason I assumed pilots, not cabin crew.

In any case, she was told the deadline is noon Friday. Good luck to all who are there.

[Guttn]

Yabadoo, I think the rest of the unions have sent a joint letter to the CAU leaders to put their weapons down on his one. So, yes, it`s dead serious. From what I`ve read in today`s news, one of the main points of all this negotiating was that the unions agreed upon not to put forth any demands. Which CAU now has done. :ugh: So, indeed, the reality check is in the mail:ok:. But this is scary.

[VLOF]

More trouble for SAS?

Boarding.no : Tidligere Linjeflyg-piloter med milliardkrav (http://www.boarding.no/art.asp?id=40765)

[Hotel Charlie]

Yepp, there is enough trouble, ...and then some :ugh:

[BestGlide]

Enighet med CAU i natt: SAS i mål med ansatteforhandlinger | Nyhetsarkivet Børs og finans | E24 (http://e24.no/boers-og-finans/article3561153.ece)

[Der_dk.]

Yeah great idea, and then they can hire some new pilots to half the money. Maybe even some off them want to buy a brand new typerating...Then they can start making real good money:}
Good luck all!

By the way...slightly ironical

Regards

[Matriks]

"Hvorfor gjør de ikke bare en kontrollert konkurs, skyter inn 5 milliarder og starter opp på blanke ark...??? !!!"


1. Fordi de ikke er konkurs.

2. Den som planlegger en konkurs driver ulovlig.

3. Ved en konkurs er det bostyrer som forvalter boet for å dekke mest mulig av kreditorenes krav, selskapets eiere og styret er ute av bildet.

[Engine_Failure]

SAS er farlig nærme en konkurs, uten de nye pengene er det vel kroken på døra. E24 skriver (http://e24.no/boers-og-finans/article3561153.ece): Det skandinaviske flyselskapet er helt avhengige av pengetilførselen for å overleve...

Det er ikke ulovlig med kontrollert konkurs når kassa er tom og man går underskudd.

[BestGlide]

Det er en grunn til at piloter bare bør være piloter :)

[Hotel Charlie]

Det er en grunn til at piloter bare bør være piloter

Øhh...

Kanskje mere viktig at blåruss forblir bokholdere og ikke begynner å sjefe?? :rolleyes:

:ok:

[Do-27]

Hi collegues!:)

Please, try to write down in english :\.....i forgot my svenska after my beauty swedish girlfriend left me 3 years ago :sad:...

Really interested in following this post.....

Good luck to all SAS team!!

Tack!:ok:

[Guttn]

Ehhh it`s the nordic forum but ok then... They have reached an agreement with all unions, even though the CAU (Danish Cabin Attendants Union) almost broke the entire company:ugh:. It was live or die for SAS on this one. Some might say they are still on life support, and they would be pretty correct in saying so. But hopefully they are now in a position to start making a profit. Not yet, but at least there seems to be a path to follow. So we`ll just have to wait and see what the future brings.

[TowerDog]

Sooo, more paycuts for the crews to subsidize cheap tickets for Joe Sixpack?

Now we need another lowcost airline or two to start up with pay for training and mediocre wages so they can sell even cheaper tickets and put even more pressure on the established carriers....Good idea..:sad:

What percentage pay cut did the crews take this time and for how long?

Good luck to the SAS crews, this is the dark ages of avaiation and hopefully it wonæt last forever...

[MadDog Driver]

TD,

Very basically...and major points only...

Around 7% on salary (FD and CC)
Some extras gone (FD)
Per Diem down 12,5% (FD and CC)
2 pilots on all US east coast (EWR/IAD/ORD)

For CPH FD, reductions on pensions..2% plus loss of pension for pilots widow!

OSL and ARN FD have might have chosen other avenues with regards to pension, since pension laws are different from country to country, and OSL and ARN colleagues might have other preferences on what to do.

This was, in my opinion, the only way out to avoid company going tits up real soon. Lets hope my colleagues who are paying for typeratings and linetraining in competing airlines today, won't start also paying to just stay in the right seat also.
Because then I'll just pack it up, and join you as a 1 striped shipmate.

Rgds MDD

edited to say...paycuts are permanent..no roll back!

[TowerDog]

MDD:

So, is the bean counters happy with the above?
Did they promise profitability and eternal happiness with this round of cutting fat?

Also you mentioned 2 pilot crews on ORD and IAD? Surely you will exceed 8 hours on the Westbound legs in the winter if not year around on those legs?

Don't know about JAR regs, but with FAA we got to carry 3 swinging Richards with more than 8 hours of block time.

More furloughs or fireings based on the new efficiency cuts?

Been there done that in 2003, we took a 23% paycut to save the company, then I took 100% later in the year when I got furloughed....Lean times back then. Got the job back in 07, but no snap-back on the pay, the extra dough ended up in managments pockets for their bonuses.
Now guys are ready to burn the house down and the motto around here is FUPM....F...You, Pay Me.:yuk:

[Guttn]

Don`t think that management are in any position to promise happy skies in the near future. I think they`re happy with just barely keeping their heads above water, and have to start swimming to shallower waters. Redundancies are coming up once again, mostly admin positions from what I understand, though still some crew will have to leave. Albeit some of these will transfer to WF if/when the whole Westlink deal is agreed upon by all, but still some will be furloughed.
JAR regs are gone, TD. EASA is now the new sheriff in town, and a liberal one it seems. Don`t know how the FDPs translate to longhaul, but rule of thumb is that you are required to rest at least the same amount of time that you have been active. BTW, transport to/from the hotel does not count as duty. And I think the max duty time is 13 hours - but there are several reductions that need to be taken into account (landings, time of day etc). If you`re really interested, there is a website all about this called deadtired.eu :ok:
13th, when you were doing your initial training, probably with no income, did you pay tax? Does a P2F person who pays for 500 hours linetrainin actually need to pay tax? He/she is, by definition, training and not working. The race to the bottom continues:ugh:

[MadDog Driver]

Correct Guttn.

13th...you know what...state subsidies are illegal in the EU...but SAS,Wallenberg and the 3 governments must have forgotten that little detail. Darn. Once again they havent done their homework.
Of course this has nothing to do with actually protecting the taxpayers investment.:cool: Better close it down, and send 15.000 workers/taxpayers plus thousands of sub contractors/taxpayers to the unemployment line.That would be a much smarter move by the governments.:cool: Then all those people could claim benefits from the governments,the same money flowing into the taxmans coffer's, from all those that pay to work, and as such fill the governments coffers with huge amounts of money,while scre...over this whole industry:p
Did I hit a raw nerve?

[bfisk]

Once again they havent done their homework.


I agree someone haven't done their homework...

For many, many years, the SAS group was providing their owners (the states) with significant dividends. As any responsible long-term owner would, the owners have now participated in a share issuance to protect their own investment. That is not to be confused with "subsidies".

There are two discussions; firstly, should the government be an active owner in large businesses? And secondly, will SAS be viable in the long term? The norwegian people are trapped as owners wrt the first question; the second one is held as a clause for the new share issue.

[MadDog Driver]

Guttn, I sure didn´t but Mad Dog tries to blame his "colleagues" for doing something unfair to him while we who works for his compettitors might have bought our ratings but now we pay tax, tax that he desperatly needs to keep his job for one more year...
Exactly 13th. I do blame P2F for a lot of the damage to the profession.
Talking about tax, I'm sure that I've paid much more than you. Because I haven't had to pay SSTR and linetraining, that I could deduct on my taxes:p
As bfisk says, the investors are trying to protect their original investment. Just as investors did when DY and others needed Stock emissions.
You think that SAS is doomed.
Until friday night I thought so too. Now I don't.
And likewise the governments and private investors obviously don't either. With the savings made,and the new emission, SAS just might be a very healthy competitor for you guys in a not so distant future!
We'll see.

[Guttn]

We need to differentiate just a bit here...
Traditional employment - get hired, company funds all training, no bs 6mo contract, on the payroll from day 1 of the TR
Low-cost - get hired, provided that you show up with a valid TR, often no contract until passed final release/linecheck, contracts offered based on company predictions/plans
- can also be divided into;
a) show up with a SSTR
b) same as a) but you also pay the company for linetraining
Please tell me which employer should receive, and deserves, nothing but your best.

Not saying that any pilot with a TR is better than the next, as we all meet the same minimum requirements for a pass. Just saying that one company wants to protect its investment, while the other passes on their training expenses to the trainees.

MDD has some very valid points. We can`t blame SAS´financial losses on lowcost airlines, because their history is just too long. We could, perhaps, if they were a new startup airline trying to do the right thing, but fact is that they have very seasoned and experienced crew who have been on the payroll for a long time. But, and this is pretty obvious too all one should point a finger towards the P2Fers blaming them in part for the continuos deterioration of crew terms and conditions. :yuk: Yes, long gone are the days when pilots were looked upon as more than transporters to warmer climates. When one actually had a chance of living the highlife and having quality time with your friends and family. My 2 cents anyway.

Sidenote; from what I read on hanar.no it seems that the Hungarian government now is the main shareholder in Malev. So, I guess, this can`t be 100% illegal or else the EU would not have allowed it.

[Engine_Failure]

How did this thread turn to ”blame the SSTR and P2F guys”?

They have nothing to do with SAS almost going bankrupt. SAS has managed to bring this on themselves.

[MadDog Driver]

Engine failure

I apologise for the thread drift. You are correct, and it's my fault for,at one point, mentioning P2F.
I just do believe, that it is indeed,contrary to what you say, one reason for so many airlines troubles these days.

13th stage

No, the taxpayers didn't. SAS did that 14 years ago, before SSTR was known among airlines in Scandinavia. Then some stupid little airline in some stupid country asked a young pilot,desperate enough for a right seat, to pay for his TR.He said yes,'cause my daddy is rich... and the snowball rolled into Scandinavia. I've made money for my airline for 14 years now,otherwise I would have been kicked out, and in the meantime I've paid 50% tax. Governments invested their money 60 years ago, and it is that money that now, for only the second time in 60 years, they are trying to protect.

To your question,
I am almost embarresed to tell you, that I don't know Mr. Janssons grand master plan.He is a very bad communicator when it comes to telling his employees whom are doing a great job day to day, about his visions.
We call him Jesus! Everybody has heard of him,nobody's seen him!
I sure hope, that the investors that are asked to fill up the coffer's, know more than I do.They would be stupid if they just threw money into this airline,if they couldn't see a good road ahead. I don't think that they are stupid.
To be honest, IMHO this time,it was for survival only.
On the other hand, the cost base at SAS,as I'm told, is now where it should be for the company to be able to start competing again, instead of just downsizing,as we've seen for the last 8-9 years.
So,without knowing exactly what the grand master plan is, I do believe that SAS can now (well,in the coming years) be a big player again. And one that will pay the TR for young pilots too:p

Rgds MDD

[Blackcoffeenosugar]

MDD you say 14 years ago?
How old/young is the youngest pilot with SAS at the moment?

When you need to recruit again, would it be an airline of 21 year olds with a fresh rating (paid by SAS) and a Commander in his/her 50s?
If so, as retirement hits, would it not be an airline with an average age of 30? OR will you be recruiting experienced crews of all ages who coincidentally already have ratings (self sponsored or otherwise)?

I am sure the collective agreement must have a clause regarding this..

[MadDog Driver]

Black coffee,

Youngest pilot in SAS has been there for 10-11 years now. Avererage age,I've been told, is 49 years:suspect:

I have no idea who,and when, they'll recruit. Lots of the guys that were fired won't come back, I'm sure. So they'll need new people. If they have typerating already or not, I don't think will make any difference to SAS. Hasn't made made any difference in the past. They'd put you through the full course anyway. To shape you, you know:p
Collective has nothing to say about this.

[SVENSK]

Guys,
last I read in Aftonbladet, the crew/union and managment reached an agreement, is there any truth to this?

SVENSK! :ok: