UK - Airlines in discussions to shake up part ownership of NATS

[whitelighter]

Noticed it as a breaking news strip on Sky. No idea exactly what they might be discussing, but the sky news page is here:

Airlines Discuss Shake-Up In Ownership Of National Air Traffic Control Service | Business | Sky News (http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Business/Airlines-Discuss-Shake-Up-In-Ownership-Of-National-Air-Traffic-Control-Service/Article/200910315406704?lid=ARTICLE_15406704_AirlinesDiscussShake-UpInOwnershipOfNationalAirTrafficControlService&lpos=searchr esults)

Maybe a story to watch in the next few hours/days. Unless anyone on here can shed any light?

[Scuzi]

Barron was employed to prepare the company for this scenario. Some people seen it coming years ago, most did not. As much as you might hate the man, he has done a damn fine job of working to his brief.

I wonder how all the "YES" voters feel about this.:hmm:

[121decimal375]

This is the time when we need to stick together....The last thing we want is a new owner to come and strip NATS of whats left of our terms and conditions...

More inportantly we need to have the union investigating how we can fund an employee buyout, it may be a wild idea but something we would be stupid not to look into.

[10W]

This is the time when we need to stick together....

On that basis, we're screwed already then. The workforce have never stood up together for anything.

[saintex2002]

...More importantly we need to have the union investigating how we can fund an employee buyout, it may be a wild idea but something we would be stupid not to look into.

...You're speaking of " an employee buyout " because NATS has been sold and due to you're in a " buy something " way of thinking...but if your thoughts go till to leave NATS with all the ATCOs staff and create your proper own ATC company it's becoming wilder...Since 4 or 5 years, I'm speaking about that with my French atcos colleagues in case of a possible privatisation of French ATC...and they don't care...but as you say, it would be stupid not to look into...I really think that's the final answer to our mutual problem....

[Ben Doonigan]

I have a problem understanding how all this will end up ......

1 - Government 'sells' 49% to the Airline Group, who put in ~£60m of their own money and then borrow ~£650m, saddling that debt onto NATS. (2005, shares were valued around £1.20 I recall?)

2 - If the Airline Group then decide to sell out their 49% share, with shares now valued at ~£2.10, and that share of NATS valued at around ~£1.2bn? .... would the Airline Group then be able to just walk away with a cash profit of 90p per share (plus the £45 million 'one-off' bonus they received this year) ? I make that about £350m profit.....

paid for by screwing your pension fund and screwing your pay and conditions ... ? :mad: .. or is it naive to expect that any 'profit' is paid back into NATS to reduce its debt burden ? Are we not after all a not-for-profit organisation ?

3 -New owners come in and buy it .... can they just borrow the purchase capital and dump the debt on NATS again ? :ugh:

Sadly I have no doubt that some scribbly beancounter is sharpening his pencil as we speak, looking at the bonuses, fees, creative accounting and kudos of dealing with Air Traffic Control, while the workers just get screwed over again .......

Happy to be corrected on my simple grasp of short-termist New Labour Britain.

[eglnyt]

1 - Government 'sells' 49% to the Airline Group, who put in ~£60m of their own money and then borrow ~£650m, saddling that debt onto NATS. (2005, shares were valued around £1.20 I recall?)

Quite normal practice, it's how most takeovers are financed, just look at Manchester United and Liverpool for examples. Normally it evens itself out because when they sell the company the outstanding debt will reduce the value of the company by that amount. The interesting difference in this case is that they only bought half the company but the debt will reduce the value of the whole company so the other shareholders lose out. The staff can't really complain because they got the shares for free in the first place and Gordon doesn't mind because he ran off with the cash from the original sale but as a taxpayer I ought to be a bit peeved.

2 - If the Airline Group then decide to sell out their 49% share, with shares now valued at ~£2.10, and that share of NATS valued at around ~£1.2bn? .... would the Airline Group then be able to just walk away with a cash profit of 90p per share (plus the £45 million 'one-off' bonus they received this year) ? I make that about £350m profit.....

Be careful not to confuse the artificial share price created to allow the employee shares to be bought and sold with the true value of NATS. NATS shares aren't traded on any market so if somebody buys NATS from the Airline Group they will have to agree a price. A lot of very expensive accountants, bankers and lawyers will get to decide what that price is. They will be able to walk away with whatever profit they make after they've paid any taxation due on it. Again this is not unusual many of the organisations sold off by both the Conservative and Labour Governments were sold again within a few years for great profit.

3 -New owners come in and buy it .... can they just borrow the purchase capital and dump the debt on NATS again ?

Probably not. What we found in 2002 was that NATS can't support much more borrowing than it currently has without being financially insecure. It is unlikely that the Regulator would allow the debt to increase by that amount. That also makes an employee buyout rather unlikely. Think of a likely figure for the value of NATS and divide it by the number of staff to work out how much your share would cost. For most people it's probably a little more than they can afford.

[Quincy M.E.]

Are we not after all a not-for-profit organisation ?

NSL isn't.

[anotherthing]

Ben Doonigan

We are not a 'not for profit' organisation.

We are a 'not for financial gain' organisation.

There is a subtle difference (allegedly), however the whole way we have been burdened by debt and the fact the airlines are wanting out at the first possible moment (with the resultant profit), and the fact that our shareholders want a dividend (and gets it), reduced costs and continued investment stinks IMHO.

As Eglnyt has stated, NATS sell-off was not unique though - the Consrvatives started it, Labour carried on the pillage of public services. (despite the Labour slogan and promise 'Our Skies Are Not For Sale').

I assume that as the airlines have only paid circa £60M of their own money, it would be too much to hope that they would only make profit on the shares that £60M bought them at the time of PPP???

That would be the fair way to do it, with the rest of the profit going towards the debt NATS is servicing.

It's galling that during CP3 and all the bleating by the airlines about NATS being too expensive, our 'partners' in the Airline Group conveniently forget that a great deal of NATS debt is down to them... :=

[ayrprox]

i agree with 10w. What have these companies to be scared of? certainly not its employees, who have shown time and time again that they are willing to accept any load of horse manure.
The times of our union once being a strong united force have gone. It began with the banding issue which drove the initial, yet significant wedge, and has continued with the nerl/nsl split,Working together, aava agreement, soal agreement etc etc.. All of these may have had minor detrimental effects on our terms and conditions on their own, but they have suceeded in removing the power the union once had, a united front. All that we have shown is that we will accept anything put to us , as long as there is a potential short term financial gain .

[mr.777]

This is the time when we need to stick together....The last thing we want is a new owner to come and strip NATS of whats left of our terms and conditions...

WRONG. That time came and went when they got their hands on the pension scheme. We then had another chance to show some balls over the latest payrise....and now people come out with this...the irony is so thick you can taste it.

We brought this on ourselves. Suck it up.

[privatesandwiches]

Ahlan sadiqi Mr. 777..... couldnt agree with you more.
The new face of NATS now ever apparant and it will be one way negotiations accepted by your week union who, over the last pension and pay negotioatons have shown that they are far too cosy with devil spawn management to actually make any difference.
Its the harsh reality, but it looks like its the way things are from now on.
Sad..... but a reality.
Private Sandwiches Mohammed.

[anotherthing]

Salaam alikum Private. You need to change your 'location'!! Got your Transformers outfit yet??

[privatesandwiches]

The hunt is still on for my Transformers costume. But enough about that. Dont want to 'hijack' the thread you know, important NATS issues to be aired.....:ok:

[Me Me Me Me]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben Doonigan
Are we not after all a not-for-profit organisation ?

NSL isn't.

NERL isn't either.

[Minesapint]

There will be no 'sticking together'. ATCO's will never strike for the other ranks and that is the end of it. ATSA/Engineers and others will be sold down the river, and the next step will be compulsory redundancies and I expect that to happen before Christmas. Prove me wrong? :suspect:

[privatesandwiches]

Blah blah blah blah blah!!!!

[saintex2002]

So UK ATS as French ATS... ;);)
Nobody interested to create our own European ATCo's company as to be sure to manage that stuff in our only one and appropriate account ?

[5milesbaby]

Doesn't matter who owns the 49%, they are always going to try and change some terms and conditions, just as the airline group have all through their reign. Why would them selling to another company make things worse? Any buyer will come in with the current terms and conditions and only then can the TRY to change them, if they actually think there is a need. Can't see where the panic is.

[saintex2002]

The matter isn't to own something as it is to day, the matter is to quit definitely as it is to day and back with our own private ATCO's company just to be paid for our control services done to all airlines flying over EU... and to nobody else... :D:D

[anotherthing]

Any buyer will come in with the current terms and conditions and only then can the TRY to change them, if they actually think there is a need. Can't see where the panic is.
No panic from me, but the realistic point is that NATS biggest expense is it staff costs, taking into account wages and benefits.

Any company buying NATS would want to reduce this/make NATS 'more efficient' (:yuk:) therefore an attack on Ts and Cs would be on the cards. Believe it or not they are constantly being attacked at the moment, the union is actually working in the background... ask your rep about SLAM and co-location...

The way to stave off that attack would be to have a strong union and, more to the point, a strong union membership... however we don't have either - probably caused by a vicious circle of members not bothering to vote because the they think Prospect is lame, and Prospect losing any credibility with management because members don't bother to vote... and it goes round and round!!

[JockNeep]

Quote:

The way to stave off that attack would be to have a strong union and, more to the point, a strong union membership... however we don't have either - probably caused by a vicious circle of members not bothering to vote because the they think Prospect is lame, and Prospect losing any credibility with management because members don't bother to vote... and it goes round and round!!


Could not agree with you more!! This has been going on for years with a weak Union leadership desperate to "keep the powder dry" and not upset management and a weak membership with a large number prepared to sell themselves down the river for a couple of thousand pounds in their hands, selling leave, crap pay deals etc. " That will pay for a holiday for me and the family" or " I can pay my credit card bill with that"

Look at the big picture guys and gals, short term gain, long term loss. :ugh:

[saintex2002]

Come on...no more blahblah...countdown has began...
Let's create our own european ATS company...
The real final answer...
Methinks...