passenger jet 'formations'

[1000tintoys]

Previously posted on Balcony spotters corner, suggested move to this site

I am led to believe that contrails show up within two defined levels of airspace, the first at about 14,000 feet to 18,000 feet; and the second starting at about 22,000 feet. The airspace in between and below I understand is not given to contrail conditions (?) Personally I would have thought once the conditions were right for contrails, there would be the right conditions for contrails to space itself.
I understand there are corridors that aircraft use, and I am only asking about passenger jets.

During about four months I spent on a beach on the East Kent Coast, I noticed there was never a time when just one passenger jet would fly over kent heading 'westward' alone. I noticed there were always either between two and five 'indian file', or two side by side ( given a couple of miles ahead or behind), sometimes this would be one showing contrail and another one lower down and no contrail, sometimes three or four within the same airspace, so to speak. Is there a method here?

Given the amount of airspace visible horizon to horizons, I cannot understand why aircraft are appearing in tandem, threes and fours or more just a few miles abreast and astern of each other. Is there a pupose to this? Given there is supposed to be crowded airspace, this does not fit. The aircraft surely would be more evenly spaced out? I appreciate they are heading to different airports.

I first noticed this in 2006, and to this day, I have never seen just one passenger jet aircraft alone. there is always another one nearby. This is never a case of one on this horizon and one on another horizon. They are always reasonably close by, albeit one with a contrail showing and another not, due to the differing flight levels.

Can anyone explain this or is this just a case of, planes converging like buses? I would have thought the jets would be more evenly spaced across the sky coming into England.

I know nothing about this at all, which is obviously coming across; but it does strike me as odd that the aircraft clump together like this and squashed up within their corridors.:confused:

[ollie_a]

They're just like buses; due to hubbing they all want to arrive and depart at the same time.

[fireflybob]

Flow control?

[clicker]

Hi,

To my knowledge contrails do not appear at certain heights, when and at what height they appear is subject to a number of conditions and as far as I'm aware they are mostly weather related. Therefore they are not defined as such.

[anotherthing]

Clicker has it about right -

In the Mil, the met brief in the morning includes (or certanly did in my day not so long ago) the levels you can expect the meteorological conditions conducive to leaving trails at - tactically for a fighter it's quite good to know as it is a very easy way of giving away your position by mistake...

1000tintoys

I'm sure someone who has knowledge of the sector will be along to correct any mistakes, but that are you are alluding to is quite restrictive airspace wise - the French have a huge danger area where their military jets practice surrender techniques, and there is the problem of trying to get eastbound aircraft - a fairly constant stream from the London area airports alone - climbed up through the westbound tracks.

Hence why everything gets funnelled into one area.

Not unique to where you are by any means, but obviously it's the bit that you can see

[radarman]

1000tintoys,

Clicker is basically correct about contrails. It all depends upon whether the atmosphere at any given level and time is of the right temperature and humidity to allow the water vapour produced by combustion of jet fuel to condense as visible water droplets. A bit like your breath condensing on a cold winter day. Meteorological conditions change from day to day, so there is no absolute contrail level, although certain level bands are more likely to produce conditions favourable for their formation.

As regards bunching of aircraft, I suggest you do a bit of googling for 'airways'.

[Pheasant Plucker]

The truth is out there: Chemtrail Central (http://www.chemtrailcentral.com/):E

[philbky]

Pheasant Plucker,

The OP has had his question answered fully in both this and his other thread.

Why complicate matters by pointing him to a cr*p site offering cod science, conspiracy theories and rubbish.

This is supposed to be a "professional" site - so much for your professionalism.

[ImnotanERIC]

philbky.................are you serious?

[grizzled]

Two things:
1. No his question wasn't answered on the other thread. Bar one, the answers on that thread were not from controllers, and were a load of goose droppings -- which is all too common on this supposedly professional forum and is why I suggested he post it here.
2. The chemtrails post was a joke for God's sake! For you to suggest that someone who could ask the kinds of question that TinToys has would take the notion of chemtrails seriously, and that we should therefore censor a joke, beggars belief.

grizz

[philbky]

Grizzled:

Neither you nor I know the OP or just how much knowledge he, or anyone else reading this forum has. As it stands there are some very well respected people in the US in particular who have been misled and deluded by the on going chemical trail nonsense. I've met a few and know first hand the problems that the FAA and Department of Defense have with them, given their public profiles.

For "professionals" to answer a genuine question with such a "joke" is, frankly, pathetic.

Thank you for calling the answers on the other thread "goose droppings"

Please do me the courtesy of stating which part of my answers on that thread were such..

You don't have to be employed in ATC to be able to answer what was a relatively simple question - though obviously you regard the rest of the world as unknowing numpties.

[ImnotanERIC]

you are officially a weirdo with no sense of humour. If what you say is true, i would say that its these us citizens intelligence that is in need of your professional help rather than anyone on here.
You sound like a right hoot at a party. any chance of an invite to your next shindig. I can bring books C to F of the encyclopedia brittanica to read and if it's really going mental we can crack out the rummikub.

[privatesandwiches]

Will there be Port and nibbles available? Although not allowed for consumption by non ATCO numpties...... HONK HONK!!!
Put me down for books G to J, im a whizz at the letter I you know.:ok:

[Dumbledor]

Contrails for us civies are good news. They show up turbulence at that level. We can often see the contrails below shaken up while we are in smooth air. You can use them to spot a/c to avoid and you can you can sometimes avoid following in their wakes or crossing them.

Contrails are also green as they reflect the sun and reduce global warming! :E

Falling goose droppings are the real worry!:}

[Pheasant Plucker]

For the 'hard of understanding' - just to clarify, my last posting was meant in 'fun', hinted at by my use of the :E and the little devil in the 'Post Icons' space.

I humbly appologise if I misled anyone:( and shall try to be more professional.

As such, I have included the following link: http://www.cru.uea.ac.uk/~james/contrails.pdf for some light reading on the subject (of course, it's what 'they' want you to believe).

[Pheasant Plucker]

.....and for further clarification.....my second posting had a slightly sarcastic tone (though hopefully slightly more 'professional' than the one before), but the link is genuine enough.

[privatesandwiches]

I think there was only 1 who was mislead, although at that age sarcasm is generally a distant memory :E

(Above statement written in a sarcastic tone... just in case)

[eastern wiseguy]

The Kerry man has no sense of humour. A quick trawl through his posts show that he "As a retired CEO of an international company,....... too financially thick to understand your obvious economic brilliance." is way too brilliant to be troubled by air traffic thickies and their puerile attempts at levity.


Gives us Irish a bad name does that:ok:

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

God help us. Do you people ever wonder what your postings must look like to "outsiders"? Do you have no professional pride? I utterly despair....

[privatesandwiches]

Professional pride, at work yes. On a rumour internet forum that any tom, dick and harry can join.... not really :E

[eastern wiseguy]

HD.....Do you mean me?

I am extremely professional at work...here....well a little bit of levity goes a long way.

Jumbo744.. Please recognise that there is weird humour in aviation, which you will undoubtedly become aware of! I think everyone was having a laugh so don't be too shocked.

HD April 4th:ok:

[1000tintoys]

Thanks fellas! :D:cool:

Almost missed the crack about the french, "anotherthing".
Radarman I will google 'airways' along with the one on the other thread that was suggested.
Radarman and pheasant plucker, I will check out both sites, just for the hell of it.
Grizzled et al for everyones information; I lack knowledge not intelligence. I think.....

Heathrow Director, I love it. I don't go to pubs anymore, and miss the witty repartee. Although it is interesting that a bluntness in communication comes out in forums, professional or otherwise. I haven't seen noses that high in the air since Concorde.....:E

All good fun, we are not robots. Yet..

it is also interesting that there have been differences of opinion.

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

[Pheasant Plucker]

1000tintoys

Feeling guilty, I p.m.-ed you some links from the UK Aeronautical Information Publication (AIP) earlier. Amongst other things, there are some maps of UK airspace upper and lower air routes - you may find them interesting.

Glad your bull$hit-o-meter works ok:)

[1000tintoys]

Googled 'Free Flight FAA'. Interesting.

Googled 'airways'. 2,820,000 sites (UK). Can you be more specific?

Looked up chemtrail, just for the hell of it.

I remember when the Alien Autopsy film came out. Was it or wasn't it real? No it wasn't,
A) it was in grainy black and white.
B) it was in grainy black and white.
C) It was in grainy black and white.
Any government would have flown the top cameraman in with colour film and then topped them afterward if need be. No offence to any govt.

Why fly planes all around the airspace to give us chemicals, when they can dump it in the food and water?:=

No I do not believe in this conspiracy. Sorry to go off topic.

Thanks for the other info though.:)

[philbky]

The OP was referred here to get a "professional" opinion by grizzled.

Only clicker, radarman and anotherthing have attempted to answer the question and NOTHING has been added to the answers in the original thread.

As to sense of humour, presumably the humour in my post on the other thread is too subtle for the children who have piled in on here.

Eastern wiseguy, you will be relieved to know I'm not Irish. Just for the record, my economic brilliance allowed me to retire 10 years ago and not be too troubled by Mr Lenihan's latest strictures, though the increase in DIRT is annoying. How much longer do you have to go as a wage slave?

[amberale]

Gosh, I bet you have an exceptionally large reproductive organ too.:E

I am in awe.

AA

[ImnotanERIC]

if you retired 10 years ago, where is the interest in these forums coming from?
there are perfectly good forums to do with soiling yourself in old age, how to deal with life as a perfect human being, and of course various sites with chat rooms about russ abbot (who you obviously admire for his brilliance in the field of humour). You guys both crack me up.
go queue up in the post office and then sit at home reading the daily express complaining about the price of houses/immigrants/the conspiracy behind princess di's death................and leave us unprofessional ones alone. please?

[eastern wiseguy]

How much longer do you have to go as a wage slave?


Like many of my co workers(particularly Band 5:E) I am independently wealthy........


As to you not being Irish......bad luck:ok:

[Pheasant Plucker]

Oh dear - what have I started:ooh:

[anotherthing]

I can pee above my head against a wall...

Do I win?

(mind you I'm only a short ass)

[eyeinthesky]

Depends on whether you are standing on your feet or your head at the time :yuk::p

[philbky]

Good morning children - that is all of you so called professionals who couldn't be bothered to answer, from your knowledge of ATC, a perfectly simple question but preferred to behave like a gang of seven year olds in the playground.

Isn't it wonderful how people - under the anonimity of the Web - find it so easier to demean themselves with yah- boo stupidity than behave like adults and use the Forum for its purpose.

Years ago aviation professionals were happy to share knowledge and develop interest in the industry. Now, judging by this and the similar previous thread, the attitude is "we know it all, don't ask daft questions and don't dare to point out how unhelpful we are."

Perhaps if those who wrote the trash answers to my posts, re the chemtrails post, had taken the time to answer the OP (always assuming of course that they have any knowledge of ATC) they might have gained some respect instead of proving just how puerile so called adults can be.

[anotherthing]

philbky

I think you will find that the OP question was answered before people started talking about chemtrails etc.

It was answered in varying degress in post numbers 2-6 inclusive. Yes, even the bit about buses and the two word answer of Flow Control were valid answers.

Just because someone does not post links to airspace maps then quotes chapter and verse of airspace and/or sector operating procedures (which are actually classified as being commercially restricted) does not mean the question was not answered.

It was a simple question, it required and received a simple answer.

The orignal poster actually states he/she found the info about chemtrails interesting so in fact they have been given an insight into something else (however far fetched), that they might never have heard of.

Thats the beauty of the internet, you can stumble across many different ideas/opinions - a lot of them rubbish but still interesting.

Maybe you should leave the policing of PPRuNe to the moderators. Or even better, leave the answers to the professionals that you so casually sneer at.

[ImnotanERIC]

mr miserable said:

Good morning children

hi, how are you doing?


Isn't it wonderful how people - under the anonimity of the Web - find it so easier to demean themselves with yah- boo stupidity than behave like adults and use the Forum for its purpose.

yup!

Years ago aviation professionals were happy to share knowledge and develop interest in the industry.

aka the dreaded spotter, often seen in laybys accosting dog walkers with how interesting aviation is.....yawn

Perhaps if those who wrote the trash answers to my posts had taken the time to answer the OP (always assuming of course that they have any knowledge of ATC)

I haven't the foggiest about a load of aviation stuff. stuff like contrails. All i know about them is that they look good from the ground.
I also like to think I have some knowledge of ATC, as I am an Atco. (speak to my LCE, they may disagree).
I keep planes separated ( try to anyway), and I try to give a professional, expeditious service to all involved.
Away from work, I like to go out and get smashed, a la booze britain. I like to go to watch live sport, and play xbox360 shooting 14 yr old japs via the internet. It doesn't make me any less professional at work.
If people come on here and crack a few jokes, whats the problem? I much prefer to read someones nonsense, but funny, answer than trawl through the informative,uninteresting dross that you would like to have as the only posts on here.

IIIZZZZZ EEEEEEETTTT!!?!?!:yuk::yuk:

[Pheasant Plucker]

Philbky - you must be an awfully keen Ppruner, posting at 0810 this morning!

Anyway, judging by your posts in this and the other thread, you are quite the aviation enthusiast. I unfortunately don't share your breadth of knowledge of contrails left by B17s, DC8s or Shorts Belfasts, very interesting though it is.

Having read through all of the posts previous to my first post, I felt that the 1000tintoy's question had been adequately answered (in a non-scientific, anecdotal kind of way). You seem to agree with this:
The OP has had his question answered fully in both this and his other thread.
I therefore decided to lighten the tone by posting the Chemtrail link.

Now, this may not appeal to your sense of humour but others have found it amusing and; in 1000tintoys case, also enlightening. This site reveals an extreme, paranoid viewpoint that anyone with an ounce of sense would write-off as rubbish, but maybe, at the same time interesting for anthropological reasons.

I don't think it gives the Chemtrails site any particular credibility by my posting the link in this 'professional' forum, especially in the manner in which it was posted. By not posting the link it would hardly protect 1000tintoys or any other interested party from these extreme viewpoints as, if you care to Google 'contrails', you will discover at no.3 and no.7, links to sites with very similar content.

If you hadn't responded in the way that you did I would have left things there. Being the father of numerous young children and with various other commitments, I don't normally have the time to sit down and type (slowly) long winded posts on this site.

However, to try and be helpful to 1000tintoys, I have given him a link to an article by the Dept. of Environmental Science at Lancaster University, which explains; in a depth greater than the vast majority of us can reach on this site, the formation of contrails and their interaction with the atmosphere.
I have have also pm'ed 1000tintoys links to the UK AIP which contains all of the information he could possibly want about UK airspace.

So, between all of us, we have answered 1000tintoys' questions both anecdotally and scientifically. We may also have revealed an aspect of this subject that he wasn't aware of and we have introduced him to the humour that is prevalent amongst operational staff who; whilst being very professional at their job, also know how to have a good laugh - something one or two others could learn from.

[wingisland]

Bravo :D !!

[1000tintoys]

Thanks to everyone who posted a constructive or 'interesting' post.

I have one final question now for all of you, not just Air Traffic Controllers and colleagues; but including thread viewers who didn't submit a reply regarding my original post;

With reference to passenger jet 'formations', bearing in mind you are all around the world, and having read my question and reviewed the answers, did it change your perception of what you are looking at on your screens and when you physically look up into in the air at aircraft passing over?
Did you become aware of something you were not before, that perhaps you had taken for granted?
Did something stand out, that had not done so before?

I am expecting a resounding, "Nope". But who knows maybe something has caught your eye. I would be interested if it has.

[1000tintoys]

I take that as a resounding no then!:cool:

[eastern wiseguy]

I am expecting a resounding, "Nope".


There you go...expectations realised.

[Pheasant Plucker]

OK - I'll admit to a certain amount of satisfaction when leaving work after a busy night shift, stepping out into a nice, crisp spring morning, peering up into a clear, blue sky; save from the contrails of the east bound oceanics - spotting individual contrails of traffic that I've just spoken to - kind of re-affirms that it is real.

Gives me a warm glow, knowing all those chemicals will be raining down on an innocent, sleeping populace:E

[1000tintoys]

Not very..... Pleasant:mad:

[grizzled]

PP: STOP IT!!

You know full well we've all been sworn to secrecy. Maybe you guys haven't heard yet about "The Disappeared" controllers in North America. Just mention the word "Chem*****s" outside of the secret briefing room and you're gone. You better hope the MIB don't know who you are . . .

[clicker]

Gives me a warm glow, knowing all those chemicals will be raining down on an innocent, sleeping populace

It's OK they won't rain down on us as they will be stopped by the counter action from all the car exhaust fumes going upward's.

[EarthboundAstronaut]

I first became aware of the chemtrail issue in 2005, and have witnessed them myself on numerous occasions and have even filmed them being seeded. There are amazing amounts of NASA satallite and public ground images of grid formations, seeded clouds, not to mention the private research that has been done showing thousands of times above safe levels of heavy metals like aluminium and barium in these trails. Quite frankly I find it staggering that so many professional pilots are either unaware or unwilling to take this seriously. How can thousands of people from all around the world see this, and yet thousands of pilots up in the air cannot?! There is a huge difference between a contrail and a chemtrail, and jokingly dismissing them does not change that. Military pilots will undoubtedly have a different perspective on this issue to public and private pilots.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

EarthboundAstronaut... I see from your profile ("Musician, single father, esotericist and amateur bushcraft survivalist") that you are perfectly qualified to join these forums!!

A friend of mine is convinced that all contrails are "chemtrails". I tried reasoning with him by explaining that air traffic controllers would be fully aware of so many aircraft trailing around the skies, going nowhere in particular, but he was not convinced. After a lifetime in ATC both at home and abroad I am afraid that I consider the chemtrail theory to be poppycock!

[G-AWZK]

I am always fascinated by the mindset that believes in Chemtrails.

Is it because people don't understand the basic science behind how the atmosphere works? Admittedly if you go into it in great depth it can become quite complex and the mathematics involved does get quite tricky - however the basics are not difficult to grasp.

1. Combustion produces water vapour.
2. The air temperature varies with altitude, but is not layered like a cake, it has bubbles and swirls of different air temperatures which may prevent the formation of contrails.
3. well, thats it really...

If civil airliners were "spraying" stuff, the likelihood of anything making it to the ground from 6 miles up, in large enough quantities is highly unlikely. Similar to throwing a bucket of water from the top of the Empire State Building, none of the water would make it to the ground in significant enough quantities to make anyone even notice.

The other thing is, if somehow this stuff is being "sprayed" from airliners then there must be "secret" tanks of "stuff" being loaded onto the aircraft as well. The weight of this "stuff" (allegedly aluminium and barium, it would seem) would have a significant effect on the mass and balance calculations that would need to be done keep the aircraft in trim. I am not aware of any special calculations that need to be done to take into account the "secret stuff sprayers"

Not wishing to sound depreciating of those that believe this rubbish about chemtrails; I have howere had experience of trying to explain these basic matters to believers. I have come to following conclusions:
1. Most believers do not or cannot understand basic meteorology.
2. When presented with explanations, then those providing the explanation are either part of the conspiracy or shouted down as being a non-believer.
3. Many are just plain nutty, and will believe any conspiracy theory served up. Trying to explain anything to this group is impossible.

There are indeed cloud seeding experiments that have been carried out to try and help drought stricken areas with additional rainfall, but these have generally been small scale and unsuccessful. There have also been some research flights using larger aircraft to seed clouds, but again this has not been widescale and certainly not the "armadas of aircraft" that the nutters seem to think are flying around.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Well said 'ZK, but I fear that this is a banging-head-against-the-wall job!

(Guess we've spoken many times at Heathrow. Good to have our feet up now!)

[Lon More]

FWIW . From East Kent it probably wasn't coming from France but from Belgium. (KOK - DVR). Westbound traffic was (is?) very restricted on that route due Swanwick's Traffic Orientation Scheme, both in destination and level. This results in Maastricht and Brussels frequently putting traffic over with 5 miles and on headings, hence the bunching.

Re the chemtrails; IIRC a bit of photoshopping of a FE's console was done here and sent to one of the leading sites. Within days it was being trotted out as proof

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<With reference to passenger jet 'formations', bearing in mind you are all around the world, and having read my question and reviewed the answers, did it change your perception of what you are looking at on your screens and when you physically look up into in the air at aircraft passing over?
Did you become aware of something you were not before, that perhaps you had taken for granted?
Did something stand out, that had not done so before?>>

I'm not sure I know what you mean? I was an aircraft spotter much longer than I was an air traffic controller so I spent many hours watching the skies - still do. I don't think my perception (?) of what I was seeing changed when I started looking at radar..

ATC doesn't usually route aircraft in "formations" and I rarely see anything resembling a formation where I live - in a busy part of the LTMA - but I see hundreds of overflights every day. But then I know that two aircraft which may appear to be in "formation" maybe vertically separated by several thousand feet, something which is often lost to the inexperienced observer.