South African ATC [Archive]

OverheadOrOverheard

23rd Mar 2009, 19:22

Thealps

Here are some of my thoughts on the matter.
1. ATNS managemnt will never approach the union or guild seeking their approval for the lease of european ATCO's. They regard it as management perogative and they do not need to inform their current employees. Luckily some IFATCA MA's had the forsight to ask the same question themselves. These were directed at the guild and union and when informed that ATNS had not told us management promptly reprimanded the staff concerned.
2. You are very lucky to receive an offer retaining your present salary and pay benefits. Just to give you some idea of what that means to me as a controller at FAJS allow me to do a simple comparison. Based on information from the offers by DFS in Germany I shall assume that you are currently earning about 7000 euros per month. Looking at the exchange rate today I saw that for one euro you could buy over twelve rand. For the purpose of this example let us assume that it is ten to one. This means that ATNS are prepared to pay you in excess of 70 000 rand per month while you are here. That is almost two and a half times what I currently earn and I've been doing this for more than ten years. This calculation is very conservative so the numbers are probably much more. If you consider that ATNS is probably looking at leasing ten or more ATCO's then it is going to cost them about one million rand per month. A one year contract equates to between twelve and fifteen million rand per year. Not bad for a company that is pleading poverty and is telling the union that it is technically insolvent.
3. Speaking of the union, it may interest you to know that the annual salary negotiations have ended in deadlock. This means that a private arbitration will now decide what our increase will be for the next year. ATNS offering a 7.5% increase on only a portion of our remunerations.
4. I have recently heard some colleagues discussing this idea amongst themselves and the thought is that while you are very welcome here they may not be inclined to give you the necessary instruction and validate you. I do not blame them for thinking like this.
5. Allow me to give you some advice - when it comes to ATNS make sure you get everything in writing and I mean everything. Do not accept anything they say, it is usually a bunch of lies. Remember too that they will swear you to secrecy so we will never find out the details of the deal they are offering you.

To conclude then, we shall all welcome you here but the best thing you could probably do for us is turn down any offer they make you. You are seen as a simple short term solution without any of us getting any benefit whatsoever. Once the 2010SWC is over they will ship you back home and we will be back in the same predicament we are in now, hopelessly short staffed.

I cannot tell you what to do so think about it from the perspective of your being in my shoes. Would you be comfortable if the roles were reversed.

Good luck with your decision making.

OOO

thealps

23rd Mar 2009, 19:31

Hmmmmm..... Sounds really appealing...
Is there a big diffrence CT compared to JS when it comes to the crime-level??
Don't really understand why anyone wouldn't train a leased ATCO. First of all it's not his/her fault and second of all, as I understand it, SA needs every ATCO it could possibly get its hands on, especially for the world cup. Of course, the reason for having to lease foreign controllers is obvious, but since it will probably take some time to train all the people needed and others are leaving in bunches there's probably no other way out. Sounds, though, as if a lot of things need to change if SA will ever have the amount of ATCOs needed.
That is, however, not the leased ATCOs problem or fault.

tesox

24th Mar 2009, 13:52

That is, however, not the leased ATCOs problem or fault

I wouldnt contribute to your check out....good luck.:ok:

thealps

24th Mar 2009, 20:52

That is, however, not the leased ATCOs problem or fault"

Ok, really didn't mean to sound arrogant or anything like that, just ment that you can't blame the individual.
Of course I realize that sitting next to a guy doing the same job as you but earning twice as much is very disturbing. I have tried to think about how we would react here, should it be the other way arround and that's why I started this thread in the first place!!

Also want to emphasize that there is no offer yet as far as I'm aware of. Our union has already, though, threatened anyone going without the consent of the SA union with exclusion. So not everyone sees this whole thing as a good idea here either.

tesox

24th Mar 2009, 21:25

I bargained into a unit in Germany from Canada...I respected their experience, and respected the union...I dont expect to get paid tonnes of money because they need people...I expect to be indoctrinated to the environment as an equal.

I just tried to perceive the environment from their perspective. How do you view a foreigner who gets more than you for equal responsibility?...

You are right in saying its not the applicants fault that there is a shortage or how the leasing company deals with it, but I think we have a moral responsibility to consider our fellow ATCers, the conditions which they work and of course the impact you will have when entering it.

126,7

25th Mar 2009, 07:58

I think its an opportunity of a lifetime for any European ATCO. Don't know whether risking exclusion from your local union is worth it or not. I also don't think that its the applicant's fault or problem that he will be earning so much more than the locals. If anything, its their own as well as their union's fault for not looking after themselves!

tesox

25th Mar 2009, 11:14

If anything, its their own as well as their union's fault for not looking after themselves!

Well, if the ATCO from Europe cares, they should aid SA's ability to bargain, not make it worse. This exact situation could unify them and help them bargain better, if properly taken advantage of...but if waves of European ATCO lease in at way higher wages, there will not be much for the union to bargain.

Am I wrong? Do you feel fine going in, getting what you want and leaving without concern for how it affects others?

Fly Through

25th Mar 2009, 11:46

tesox most of what you say makes sense and if it was for permanent positions I'd agree, UAE ACC controllers put out the same argument a number of years ago but for permanent placements. However SA over the next year is a different ball game, your union hasn't managed to convince management to staff correctly for 2010 so panic ensues as everyone realises there's trouble ahead. Leasing controllers is the only way you'll get sufficient staff in time and yes I think for short term contracts a premium will have to be paid. Remember ATNS' attempt to recruit controllers from OZ? Expecting controllers to move to another country on short term contracts just for the fun of it is a little naive. What ever happens I wish you all the luck in the world for next year cos you're gonna need it, hopefully the IPL might point out the short comings in the system.

FT

Bongodingo

25th Mar 2009, 12:39

Okay, just a touch off subject, but how bad does traffic (air of course) get during the World Cup? Anybody ever worked one?

There may also be American's getting contracted to come to SA. I saw a posting last week.

tesox

25th Mar 2009, 13:30

Im not in the SA union, Im Canadian...I have friends there, and I take an interest in it.

Maybe bonuses for the locals will equalize and reduce the inherent stresses associated with the inequality that is being proposed.

FinalControl

25th Mar 2009, 14:40

Americans from busy stations in America are finding it difficult to go solo in Dubai, Joburg will be a nightmare for them....

jcash

25th Mar 2009, 15:24

It may well sount tempting to go and work in South Africa on a short term lease. The reason for the offer is obviously the soccer in 2012 (if I remember correctly, not the biggest fan).
I just want people to keep in mind that there must be a reason for all the SA controllers trying to land a job somewhere else, f.ex. in the UAE.
I guess the reason is job related, i.e. salaries and conditions.
So as one colleague to another, do you really think you are helping the SA controllers by accepting the short term contract being offered.
Please think again and again.
I suggest that you try to influence your union to draw local and international attention to the upcoming situation in SA and put some pressure on the SA ANSP. Going in and accepting 2 or 3 times the salaries being offered to locals just because you can does not sound very ethical to me.

Take care.

thealps

25th Mar 2009, 18:08

Ok, a relevant question then; should every controller in the world, with more or less the same workload, earn the same no matter where he works in the world? In a perfect world - of course!
That is, however, unfortunately not the reality no matter how much we all want it to be that way. (Or maybe not..?)

I tend to see it like this; SA is in desperate need of ATCOs, partially because of the WC coming up. What should they do? Leasing seems to be the only option here since there simply aren't enough guys around. What would happen IF European ATCOs are offered a contract in SA, with their present salaries, benefits etc., and they all turn down the offer? Naturally it would really make a point to the public that ATCOs from around the world stand together and are unified in this matter.
What would, however, be the consequences? Probably, a more or less
f:mad: up WC and a lot of negative media attention for ATNS and for SA as a country. Would it be worth it?
I'm sure there are some German guys around who can tell you how much extra traffic you can expect during a WC.

When it comes to the European guys that might come to SA, you never know, some of them might want to stay after the contract is over. Money is not everything after all....

Another thing - what's the diffrence between a European ATCO going to SA on a lease, making a lot more money than the locals and a South African guy leaving SA to go work in the sand pit (or wherever), also earning a lot more than in SA?
I personally don't find the first alternative any worse than the second when it comes to solidarity.

tesox

25th Mar 2009, 18:39

The difference is choice.

An ATCO from SA chooses to stay in hopes of better conditions, no doubt. A SA ATCO who goes somewhere in search of better conditions is also excercising their right of choice. When an outsider enters a negative environment with better pay and benefits than the locals, that is not respecting the home ATCO's choice is it.

I think your "relevant question" is easy to answer, yes we all should be paid equally relative to cost of living, workload etc. Your intention to enter that environment at a level much higher than your work mates than you threaten their security, your own, and the goals which they may be trying to achieve.

Yes the world cup is an important event, and if it draws attention to the inequalities that fellow ATCO's experience, than so be it...

Money is not everything after all....

Than go as an equal, same pay and benefits...

thealps

25th Mar 2009, 20:09

The difference is choice.

I have actually considered going to SA as an "equal" some years back. The only feedback I got was that they were not hiring foreigners at that time.

I totally agree with what FT mentioned earlier; Expecting controllers to move to another country on short term contracts just for the fun of it is a little naive.

A SA ATCO who goes somewhere in search of better conditions is also excercising their right of choice.

Well, where is the right of choice if you, more or less, condemn people going to SA on a lease? What makes it a better choice to leave the country and the fellow ATCOs behind?

I'm not sure that a possible lease would affect the environment for SA ATCOs in a negative way. Of course, the whole idea of ATNS paying a rediculous sum of money to hire foreigners instead of giving the locals a well deserved pay raise is, to say the least, strange.
But, if you look at other companies in the world, outside of ATC, there's nothing strange about hiring people on a temporary basis (consultants) if you really need it and even paying a lot more than you would if they were hired directly.

However, it really would be a temporary solution and I guess the more people that become aware of the conditions in SA the better. Hiring Europeans on a temporary basis would definitely put a lot more attention on the issue. If it's a good or bad idea? Who knows..
Glad we have a discussion going:ok:

tesox

25th Mar 2009, 23:06

This is truly great discussion...interesting indeed:ok:

Well, where is the right of choice if you, more or less, condemn people going to SA on a lease? What makes it a better choice to leave the country and the fellow ATCOs behind?

Lets not get too sidetracked...the original issue is that local ATCOs are making on average 5-9 times less than a European ATCO. The proposal is for European ATCOs to work in SA for the same wage they are making in their respective country. The cost of living in the popular parts of SA is comparable to many parts in western Europe. The right of choice is yours to prevent further contaminating the work environment that is existing there.

I think the best short term solution is to contract foreign ATCOs at the relative rate and increase bonuses to the locals to the average equivalent salarys being paid to the leasees.

SINGAPURCANAC

26th Mar 2009, 08:13

having faced similar situation in the past,I would like to give my opinion.
There is no single management in the world with the idea to pay workers.If they have an opportunity to pay nothing for your work they will do it. that logic is not good for business but it is excellent for management and theirs supporters(politicians in case of ATC business).
Management in your company made a lot of mismanagement decisions so now your company will pay the price.They could not avoid situation to lease/recruit foreigners.
If someone believe that an average European ATCO will go there for the same money as they have at home,I must say it is stupid idea. Even myself(as lowest paid APS/SUP ATCO in Europe) is not interested to go to SA for your salary.
You may consider that you wouldn't find qualified ATCO for JNB or CPT below 12 000 euros per month.All cost included(housing,recruitment process,trainning,air tickets ,company's car and so on).
Unofficial standard in my ex-country and now as well is: If you are going somewhere else than your primary location,in order to solve staff shortage at that location than you will get more or less double salary for that month. especially if you are sent abroad.
So,standard European ATCO salary(when you take into consideration local costs,benefits other tna salary and related issues) is around 5000 euros/per month.
So do not expect that you will see leased ATCOs from Europe below 12 000 euros/per mont.That will be the price that your company/state will pay for that solution.
How much of those money will stay in ATCOs pocket is different question.
You will have two option,to accept such deal,help to ex-pats to validate and survive World Cup(by the way Cup will be held at 2010 and Serbia will take a title:E) or,
you will not accept that combination and you will see what are the real problems with traffic congestion and staff shortage combined.And your salary will remain more or less the same level as it is today. You wouldn't get huge pay rise,if you rejects ex pats. :=

thealps

26th Mar 2009, 20:49

I think the best short term solution is to contract foreign ATCOs at the relative rate and increase bonuses to the locals to the average equivalent salarys being paid to the leasees.

The thing is (my best guess..) that ATNS won't pay the leased individual's salary, he will continue to get the money from back home as before. ATNS probably pays the other ANSP a lump-sum for hiring X ATCOs. That sum would naturally be higher than just the normal salaries of the leasees.

But, Tesox, you're right about what should be the fairest way of doing it. (bonuses for the SA:s to level the differences)

Skyjuggler

26th Mar 2009, 22:30

First off, great thread going here with some good points...

Having read all the previous posts I understand where both parties are coming from. I think it can be summed up through from an SA ATCO perspective by saying that they are tired of upper management trying to fix the symptoms, not the cause!
It all seems awfully reactive. Before setting about contracting international ATCO's, put in place a decent retention scheme. At least try! A 7 odd percent increase is a pinky finger short of a full handed slap in the face.:=

Ultimately though, it's a short term solution, post world cup, assuming all the contracted ATCO's return from whence they came, SA ATCO's will be back in the same boat. It's not a very big boat, there's no paddles and they'll get no days off to go fishing.

This all show's ATNS's uncanny ability to confuse the facts with the issues! Will it solve the immediate problem re 2010 SWC? Possibly. Will it solve the reason for getting them in the low staff compliment position in the first place? Almost certainly not.:ugh:

Goldfish Jack

27th Mar 2009, 05:53

There is no doubt that we have a shortage of ATCs in SA. ATNS management have now woken up to this and are frantically looking for a short term solution and they think they have found it - employ overseas ATCs either or loan/lease or short term contracts.

However what they forget is that it takes time to train these people and that is where the next stuff up is coming. We have backlog of ATCs that need training at FACT, as does FAJS, and where do we put these short term people in the queue - at the front and stop training of permanent ATCs or at the back of the queue? Put them at the back and they wont be trained in time for next June, that is for sure. Put them in the front and the permanent people will lose out. Training of app will take 3 - 4 months per person - you need min of 200 hours to go solo on app and at 30 hours a week of dual that equats to 8 weeks. As most people do not go solo at 200 hours, closer to 250-300 hours you are looking at training a max of 4-5 people before June next year. That certainly wont solve the problem. We need a lot more numbers than that. What those illustrious jam- stealers at Isando cant understand is that if you need 200 hours to do an app validation at 40 hours a week, they seem to think it takes 5 weeks to send someone solo ( 40 x 5 = 200 hours). They cant understand you have breaks on your shifts, some periods are not suitable for training, the student might have other tasks to do - ie some theory training, not only practical, etc etc.

So until Isando wake up, remove one or two of those incompetent recruiters and settle down on a long term plan they are continiously going to be treading water, when it comes to staffing levels. And to make matters worse, as the world economies emerge from the recession there is going to be a need for more ATCs overseas so there will always be an outflow. Also a large number of senior ATcs have the option to go within the next 5 years, which they could well exercise....

If you want to come to a place that spares no money on modern equipment and maintains it and keeps it up to date, you are not going to go far wrong coming to SA. That is one excellent point about ATNS. There is also no doubt the standard is not what is was 10/5 years ago and that is a worrying thing - there are some great ATCs coming through the system, but they are far in the minority - to the vast majority of youngsters, it is a highly paid job and there is no passion, like the youngsters had 10/5 years ago. But that is not only unique amongst ATCs - it is just a factor of todays youth - they just see a job as a means to an end and there is no professionalism and loyalty - take any other profession and see how often a youngster jumps from company to company....

As to pay - well we are never going to find a solution to this one - people will always be complaining about pay - i believe it should largely be related to where you live/work. I challenged an 8 year ATC the other day to go through the local job-finder and find me a job that pays the same as his, alternatively find me a job that has 3-4 years training and then 8 years experience and see what they earn..... He nearly s(*t himself when he found out what he was getting paid compared to an engineer, and also what a deputy director-general in a government department gets paid - thats the last I think we will hear him moaning about salaries!!!!! And also bearing in mind the amount of time off we have compared to them......

You are never going to find a truly happy ATC - that is a fact. In these tough times we should be grateful we have a decent job, quality time off and a relatively good salary. Sure I can earn more in the Middle East, but to some of us money is not everything - quality of life is high on the agenda, and do I want to stay in the sand ......... We might, tesox as you allege, be earning 5 - 9 times less than a European ATC but compared to the life-style - nothing but nothing beats living in Cape Town...........life 101 - if you have a budget and discipline to manage it - you going to do fine.

Skyjuggler

27th Mar 2009, 08:49

You certainly have some wise words Goldfish Jack
I would agree with you for the most part. Just one point you didn't mention while discussing training is that a maximum of two ATCO's can be trained at a time effectively. If you have 8 people in the wings waiting for training they\ve got to wait their turn. On top of that, an ATCO without a validation really isn't much use... They can't work anywhere.

Look at how many months to the SWC, and how many ATNS says they need. Then work out how many it's possible to train in a best case scenario, everybody solo at 250hrs, no consolidation and assuming that those rated ATCO's without an OJTI rating don't have to work at all for that period... I smell trouble:ooh: This is also completely ignoring the fact that the new APP controllers who have just got their first validation, have 3 months real experience and are now going to be controlling enormous amounts of traffic.

The only part of your summation I disagree with is that I was a truly hppy ATC. I loved my job and my lifestlyle. I only left since my sideline business overtook my carreer. But I'm still doing something I love:ok:

ProM

27th Mar 2009, 09:52

One small point, you cannot read anything from the German example as to increase in air traffic for the SA world cup. the reason being that a large number of international visitors could come by car or rail. That is not the case with SA.

From a quick google, estimates seem to range from 300,000 to 500,000 additional long haul visitors. That's a lot of extra flights in a releatively short time period. And ignores any additional internal flights needed to transfer spectators from one match to another (I don't know which cities are being used for games, nor whether sides will move from one to another or be based in a single place so I can't work that out)

porra

27th Mar 2009, 10:35

I have to agree with GFJ for the most part...

ATNS management are in my opinion generally very good in running the company. I've worked for large reputable EU and ME employers and they could ALL learn something from ATNS Management.

As for lack of job "passion" - this is not unique to SA in the least - in fact - ALL of my friends at FACT have a great deal more passion than anything I've experienced previously. ATC is just a job to most newbies around the world and as long as they execute their duties with skill and professionalism, why take issue?

Coming back to the original post: "....Would be interesting to hear what any of the locals have to say about all this. Understand that it could be quite a sensitive subject. In addition to that there's not much positive to be read about the job in this forum..."

I agree with GFJ is saying that this is all possibly too little too late - BUT - as for taking a Joburg-like stand and saying that leased controllers won't be trained - total Bullsh!t!! The likes of STOZ and FinalControl should check their Joburg demigod ATC attitudes at security and learn as much as they can from leased ATC's! (@ thealps - now there's some tension for u!:p)

P

Fly Through

27th Mar 2009, 12:20

200 hrs plus to validate a controller? An ab initio trainee but not an experienced controller which the leased guys will be.

One things is for certain, something needs to be done, what would the locals suggest? Come 2010 ATNS will need to have done something unless you want the world cup played in Germany again!

Goldfish Jack

27th Mar 2009, 12:35

The 200 Hours is a CAA requirement for an initial validation - this applies to new people and also to people from other countries. In certain cirumstances, application can be made to the CAA to reduce the training period - has nothing to do with ATNS
Skyjuggler as to the training of 2 app ATCs at the same time, you have to remember at FACT we have a morning and an afternoon shift - we can train on one of those shifts and then we have to keep the other shift open to the current controllers can remain current and be rostered through that one. So that effectively means we can only train one person at a time! One must not forget the other staff - they have to remain current, so slots must be kept open for them all the time. Same situation in the tower. Area is different - 2 positions - 4 shifts, so you can train 2 people at the same time. Nights shifts are not any real good for training as there is not much traffic after 2100B

makeapullup

27th Mar 2009, 16:47

500 000 is that all, 1000 A380's 8 nm's apart you can start your line-up at the north pole. All the app guys need to do is clear them for the app.

€12000 a month i might be in;):E

Goodluck

PS i'm bidding for tickets and planning to fly "down" so I guess its good luck to me!

porra

27th Mar 2009, 17:55

:E That's all the APP guys do at FACT anyway... :ouch:

P

makeapullup

27th Mar 2009, 19:06

hey porra, its not just ct its world wide - the bastards!!!

thealps

29th Mar 2009, 12:50

When it comes to training, we currently have 15 trainees in total on ojt in area (8 Sectors max.). That means not a lot of shifts for anyone without a trainee and that's the way it seems to remain for quite some time.
It's not fun at all but it's clear to everyone (more or less..) that it's for our own benefit in the future.

I'm sure that with a bit of effort you could train quite a lot of foreigners in time for the SWC. (Don't know when they plan to hire people, though, if any at all)
Where is the lack of staff worse, CT, JB, area, app?

Porra- don't see that much tension yet!! :O

thealps

30th Mar 2009, 15:02

By the way - well spoken Goldfish Jack and Skyjuggler!
Interesting indeed...

TAVLA Northbound

31st Mar 2009, 07:54

These points are all moot.

Dis te laat, it's too late, c'est trop tard, das ist zu spaet. Get it?

ATNS should have taken their thinking out of their back sides a LOOOOONG time ago but, alas, te dom, too stupid, trop stupide, zu dumm. Und auch zu politisch. We're far more concerned with demographics than we are with actually moving aircraft. An arbitrator at a dispute was told recently that ATNS' core business is in fact NOT air traffic control.:confused: Really? You mean the cake and muffin unit is our bread and butter? Or maybe it's that bastion of efficiency, the department run by Grandmere Somethingwithaclick. I hear they recently moved into their 5th building at the office park / circus grounds. Maybe it should be called Support Staff Job Creation and Navigation Services? Ag nee wat, SSJCNS? Te lomp. Zu Laestig. Too cumbersome

The 2 of us who will still be here when the fiasco kicks off are going to have the best seats to watch the biggest cock up in the history of cock ups.:D

Isn't it ironic that ATNS is just one little "a" short of satan. Lucky for them they couldn't get an "a" for anything except maybe their collective hole.
:ugh:Klaar gepraat.:ugh:

makeapullup

31st Mar 2009, 10:17

TAVLA unwound - you have quite a way withh words. Well said.:ok:

TAVLA Northbound

31st Mar 2009, 17:43

Makeapullup

You want to check that location of yours? SA? Really? Haven't seen you around these parts for a while now. Unless I'm just not looking in the right places ...:confused:

MercuryRising

1st Apr 2009, 02:55

GFJ,

Your post reflects the same, you don't know how lucky you ATC's have it, tone I have heard from incompetent ANSP managers over the last 30 years and especially over the last 15.

From what you have written I deduce that ATNS is a good employer who:

pays a market related ATC salary, however, it's not related to the international ATC job market but rather to the general SA job market and makes comparisons to other professions that have nothing to do with ATC supply and demand dynamics.
ATNS management requires that its ATC's work a minimum 40 hour work-week and doesn't understand that its ATC's take breaks at work. (This 40 hour work week minimum in itself negates any argument that ATC in SA has "more time off" than other professions ).
That ATNS's ATC shortage is a consequence of " one or two of those incompetent recruiters " and that ATNS management hasn't noticed this for an unmentioned number of years.
You then end by stating, "but nothing beats living in Cape Town" , which has nothing to do with ATNS.I raise these points not as an attack on you but rather to point out that, by comparison, your conditions seem far less than ideal and if your management actually strives to achieve ideal conditions then these can be attained, and attained for all employees not just the ATC division. As a passionate ATC here is my contribution to this thread :

"As to pay - well we are never going to find a solution to this one " , well you're simply wrong on this as I am a satisfied ATC who is very well paid, has a ten day roster which provides me with ample rest and family time, have 48 days leave per year, have comprehensive medical, education and housing allowances, works on the latest equipment whilst using the most current practices and my ANSP is fully staffed - with some contract staff who earn the same salaries as the local employees - by people who are passionate about their jobs. All this because we have a competent management.

From what I read on this thread ATNS management has some serious retention issues with its ATC staff and I read elsewhere that they actually have to hold their staff hostage through bonds. To an outsider ATNS management seems totally inept at keeping its ATC's and the fact that they intend to, expensively, contract out their mistakes to other ANSP's to address is an admission of guilt which deserves their resignations.

Should ATNS management choose to take this short term option then I call on ATCs worldwide to demonstrate some brotherhood and to reject this offer and show these bad managers the consequences of their incompetence, and in this case the consequences to ATNS shall be embarrassing in the least. To ATCs in SA I would say; in response to those foreign individuals who take up the offer and put their selfish wants ahead of your bread and butter, the solution is simple : don't train the buggers!

hermy1

1st Apr 2009, 21:04

ATNS has itself to blame for being in this situation and is now trying to play their last card.why? just take a look at the pass and failure rate of the last 5 years at the academy.most of the Assistant and Aerodrome courses had a failure rate of more than 50% which leaves us with no-one to train to replace the hordes leaving to play amongst the sand dunes.
but thats all well..because us at the smaller stations will comply with the daily flow control message from joburg:all departures to joburg tma to be seperated by ten minutes or more due to sectors being combined because of lack of staff.so what they gonna do during world cup? how they gonna implement flow control to europe and african states while keeping local airlines happy?

Skyjuggler

2nd Apr 2009, 01:20

I had some work to do this morning and before I set in, I thought I'd browse the forum.

TAVLA... Uitstekend Boet! I don't think anyone could have put it any better, even in one language :ok:

Mercury Rising... I must commend you on a very well composed post. You quite elegantly stated what ATNSers have been feeling about management for a long time.

However, let me be the first to say, "I'd LOVE to know where you work!!!" Where do I sign up? I dust off my headset in a shot.

As for the failure rate, I believe there are all sorts of new things in place now... Rumour has it on primary 1,2/3 a fail is no longer what it used to be. On top of that, the tower course is now about 6 months long! :eek: I have nothing against the future conrollers of the world being given a fair chance but I'm reminded of a saying the old head of the college used to say (with adequately flamboyant swear words as punctuation), the motto is "Train to succeed" not "train UNTIL you succeed!"

EltorroLoco

6th Apr 2009, 09:58

Ah who really cares guys,

ATNS will do whatever they want, every time they cock-up - it's my arse on the line (excuse the cliche, but me luvs it), the ATCs will sort everything out, everything will return to DefCon3 till the next crisis.

This has been happenning since the DOT days, it's just SNAFU. To wish for anything better is the same as wishing beetroot will cure AIDS.

It's gonna be great fun, well maybe not for pilots and passengers, but for us in the dungeon - brilliant!

C u in the asylum :ok:

prascho

6th Apr 2009, 13:51

I would like to become an En-route Air Traffic Controller for ATNS but I'm not able to send all my certificates together because the size is 6.5 MB and there is a problem with the fax also. That's why i sent all my certificates separated and the problem is that no1 cares about me and my application and still no confirmation that ATNS received something .....I am confused !?!?!
Is some1 able to help me?:ugh:

Goldfish Jack

6th Apr 2009, 15:16

Check the website for the postal address. Make it to attention Ms HANNALIE DREWES and then courier it DHL

Let me get back to DEFCON3 and make sure my funeral policy is up to date - one of our benefits nowadays!!!! :D They gonna work us to death, not give us beetroot, so they will pay for our funerals now!!!!!!!!!!!!:{

prascho

6th Apr 2009, 17:01

DFS is not able to pay for me and i don't expect ATNS to be, so take it easy m8:sad:

radioexcel

7th Apr 2009, 20:50

An 8% Increase on the cards this year for ATNS ATC's.....:eek:
They already lost out by 3% last year getting only 9%(Inflation 12%) ???? :ugh:

Abu Dhabi got 40% plus this years. :D

ATNS already lost 30% of their Approach Controllers from Cape Town only since December last year. What are they thinking?? :\

GFJ... not every ATC are financially independent as you are...ie no inheritance from family?

If the world market is demanding ATC's, then the Service Providers like ATNS must take this into account and make a plan to retain their staff.

Cape Town Approach will still be losing another 25% of their Approach Control Staff during the next 4 months coming:E!!!

Local Training does not even fill the gap created by 2 controller leaving!!

Overseas recruiting during the past 2 years for SA controller who left ATNS only broad back 4?? Definitely not even close to solving the problem.

Good luck to those staying behind.....may you suffer in peace.:eek:

PS.. World cup 2010??? Holds, Delays, Cancellations of flights?? Who knows.

RE:E

majestic mirage

11th Apr 2009, 10:36

There is problems all over. In Durban there are 9 controllers left to cover 6 shifts with 2 chiefs helping out. One shift was dropped to help out with staffing and shifts made longer :4-5 hours without break. One patc leaving in November.

AND WE STILL HAVE TO STAFF KING SHAKA AIRPORT WITH DURBAN FOR 2010

27Foxtrot

13th Apr 2009, 02:33

GFJ, while what you say about sound financial planning is true, there are levels of how frugal one should be living. With ATNS you are required to live more frugally than many other places. It isn't just sound planning, it is required.

But it also isn't about money up front. While having a nice healthy paycheck always puts a smile on your face, there are plenty of other things ATNS could be doing to help its staff out.

Like cheaper flights. Seriously. Some other ATS companies not only give their staff two flights a year back to home stations, some give two BUSINESS CLASS tickets. ATNS doesn't even offer reduced rates on internal flights, where with careful planning and advanced booking you can get a ticked from FACT to FAJS for the same price as an expensive dinner.

Empty claims of ATC's giving preferential treatment to whomever gives the better rate is exactly that, empty. You work the sequence as it happens. As it stands there are certain controllers who favour Comair anyway, so why not get some rewards?

I will grant you that finding a similarly paid job .vs study time isn't easy in South Africa, I have been "income earning" for ATNS longer than my same aged compatriots have been for their respective companies. But then, I don't need to look in SA do I? I can easily go overseas and earn much much more. Yet ATNS isn't doing squat to stop it happening. Flying into OMAA is like flying into FACT 2 years ago. All the same voices.

galliwalli

13th Apr 2009, 09:44

Mandela, Hitler and ATNS management standing on the sinking Titanic.

Mandela - "Save the ATC's"
Hitler - "Screw the ATC's"
ATNS management - "Is there time"

Skyjuggler

13th Apr 2009, 19:18

:D:D:D:D

Sigh, it's their time all right:(

What Majestic Mirage said is a little disconcerting... Have they taken away night shift? How do they get away with only 6 shifts? Does that include tower AND approach? It was also mentioned that the chiefs were helping out. Does that include the MATS or not yet?:)

But back to the point, SWC is now just over a year away. Have any of the mystery controllers arrived yet? I daresay the clock is ticking...

prascho

14th Apr 2009, 10:12

I sent my application for the position of area ATC 3 weeks ago ,and no any reply, information or something like "Tnx for your interest" , NOTHING. Its Africa and everything must be typical for Africa ,seems your salaries also, so i do not have what to do there!!!
I do not see how will your chiefs find experienced ATC's whit ICAO training.
I'm driving a new AUDI Q7 for 85k euro.My life is very expensive and they r not able to pay for me. If they do need a quality, they have to be ready to pay a lot for us!!!;)

EltorroLoco

14th Apr 2009, 15:00

Call me old fashioned, or just old, but there is more to life than just the money - although it does feel better to cry in a Porsche than in a Hyundai.

I just get tired of playing for the B (or is it G) Team.

Morale is in the toilet and the soluton is.... collared shirts - I wish I was kidding.

Consistency in non-existent, the difference in service every day is chalk and horse manure, the solution is.... remove the approach supervisors and have 2 standby shifts per day. What a stroke of , I don't even have the energy to type anything sarcastic.

Every time you change position (minds out the gutter), gotta sign something, about 6 signatures in 6 different books per shift, all because the place mats in the standards office don't know the voices of their victims. Nice guys, please stop asking for my details all the time - I've been here for 16 fookin years, name - same, ID - same, birthday - same (tip - it's the 1st 6 numbers of the ID) .

We could shrink our carbon footprint you know, get rid of some of the oxygen thieves...

Anyways, my argument remains the same:

ATNS will not listen to anyone who they already pay a salary, so that leaves the customer, client, etc. Pls complain about the junk (the APDAK whatever it's called SID off 21 comes to mind) and compliment the good stuff (shortcuts, use of 03L for landings with no delays etc.)

The ball is in your court airspace users, you get what you get, and if you don't comment - don't be surprised when it's got a little odour to it.

Skyjuggler

14th Apr 2009, 15:45

Well said once gain.

It seems that the more things change the more they stay the same. ATC's come to work EVERY day with the same problems. The staff shortage causes morale to drop, stress to climb and patience to wear thin. The complete inability of head office to realise, not only the grandeur of what's actually happening, but the detriment to the staff, has always amazed me. But the problem is this.

ATC's are a distcinct personality type. They'll always plug in, and work their butts off, to the best of their ability! Regardless of the fact that you don't have assistance, the rostering guys are frantically trying to find you a replacement etc. Ulitmately this translates into the fact that the clients have no idea what's happening. They simply think it's ops normal. That is the main reason Head Office doesn't do anything. It's not yet affecting THEIR bank balance!

Rant over!

Little One

15th Apr 2009, 07:07

Every time you change position (minds out the gutter), gotta sign something, about 6 signatures in 6 different books per shift, all because the place mats in the standards office don't know the voices of their victims. Nice guys, please stop asking for my details all the time - I've been here for 16 fookin years, name - same, ID - same, birthday - same (tip - it's the 1st 6 numbers of the ID) .

Eltorro the change in sign on registers did not come from Standards/Safety Office. Beleive me we still do know the voices. The change was implemented by the Station MATS. All the other units still use the old sign on in the Occurence log. However if the procedure is not complied with we will highlight this in our reviews however this is not to harp on a point but to show that it is either not working correctly or not possible to implement.

Other sections at HQ gets just as upset as the rest with the Non-Service Delivery and Airspace Deficiency departments because sometimes it feels that we hitting against a brick wall when we trying to effect changes that should make things better. Unfortunatly the Standards/Safety section can only provide advice and cant go and effect the changes that has to be done my SD and unit management in most cases.

Moral is low in most of ATNS and is affecting everyone, especially when we told that the board wont approve new hires, the training accadamy has nothing left to offer and the instructors there are all also just as tired of doing backflips through loops for nothing.

The bigest excuse now seems that ATNS doesn't have budget for anything but there is still alot of fruitless expenditure but we will cut back on tea and coffee. Doesnt make sense but I'm no Finance guru.

Hopefully something breaks soon in the execs and they can start pullingthe company back together otherwise we all going to keep running for other places.

prascho

15th Apr 2009, 17:50

Are u South Africans, guys ?!?!?!?!?

Skyjuggler

17th Apr 2009, 06:47

Um... Nor sure I entirely understand the question, but I think yes... Barring the occasional european visitor, most Ppruners on this thread are South African. Either still with ATNS or have moved on to somewhere a little (lot) less frustrating...

126,7

17th Apr 2009, 07:39

ATNS thanks all candidates for applying, but can only acknowledge those under consideration.

prascho

The above from the ATNS website. Maybe thats why you didn't get a reply after sending your cv. Besides, you can't take that Q7 with anyway.

prascho

17th Apr 2009, 14:31

I don't think so,ATNS wanted to lease our area controllers 2-3 years ago :ok:, and yeop u r right, my Q7 is whit left direction:ugh:

Beside myself

18th Apr 2009, 17:16

I don't usually post on forums but I realy am beside myself!

The latest on the wire is that the company are unable to recruit or train ANYONE due to financial contraints:confused: Could this be true... Me thinks too many people may have had their hand in the same pie while ATC's get to live off the crust...

Even if they could afford to train new ATC's, is there anyone at the college who can train them? If they fail will they be sent straight back on the next course and dare I say it, draining even more of the company's funds?

In addition, a little birdie let slip that another well known exec is set to leave. By their own choice but leaving never the less. Abandoning ship?

There's one more observation I'd like to make. The MD writes a monthly memo to all staff. Barring the changing of a few words in the first and last paragraph, it's just (and he states) a copy and paste of the last one. Word for word. ATC's aren't stupid! (mostly), we know what's going on! Tell us what's being done to prevent the nasties.

I heard the other night that 3 more ATC's are leaving Durbs too in the near future. One of them, I'd have bet my bottom dollar would never leave. What has someone done to P!$$ him off:eek:? That means, by my count, (just the guys I know about), there are at least 14 still to leave.

Good times ahead :ok:

VoxPopuli

18th Apr 2009, 19:11

I asked the question in Nov 2006 and I will ask it again: Qua Vadis ATNS?

Skyjuggler

19th Apr 2009, 08:05

Hi Beside Myself, welcome to the forum...

One of your points there has some serious implications. I truly hope it's only a rumour. You gonna give everyone a hint as to who the exec is that's leaving. Are they resigning or retiring?

ATNS 4 Life

19th Apr 2009, 10:09

For all you Doom and Gloomers * READ BELOW * ATNS has a grip on her issues and have a concrete plan!

Air Traffic and Navigation Services Company Limited
Private Bag x15 Kempton Park 1620 Tel +27 11 961 0100 Fax +27 11 392 3968

ATNS (http://www.atns.com)

Company Registration No. 1993/004150/006

Directors: MD Mamashela (Chairman) PK Dlamini (Chief Executive Officer)
AJ Bradshaw JB Crawford M Hlahla JM Maisela HT Makhathini Dr JS Mzaliya Dr K Parker
Company Secretary: S Mngomezulu

ATNS/HO/M00/06 – 04 P a g e 1 of 2 16th April 2009

MEMORANDUM FROM : Patrick Dlamini TO : All Staff Date : 16th April 2009

Dear ATNS’ers CEO CIRCULAR 07/2009 Our strategy deliberations have been ongoing and we have been refining and working on the strategy across all levels of the organization. Last week – just before the Easter break – we had two very lively and interactive sessions with the next level of management and further action plans were deliberated and adopted. The real work will be in ensuring that we all remain focused and that we all share the same vision for ATNS. I am certain that ultimately we all want the same thing – a successful organization that we can all be proud to be associated with. I once again wish to share the ATNS Business Concept with you – remember this is what will be driving our business going forward:

 Our strategy will be to focus on the air traffic and navigation service needs of the ATM Community, primarily in South Africa, as well as the rest of the Africa and Indian Ocean Region (AFI) and ultimately in selected global markets
 We will develop a thorough understanding of the global ATM community with emphasis on product and service offerings, technology developments and customers in order to effectively respond to the needs of our selected markets with innovative and relevant air traffic and navigation service solutions
 We will source, develop, market, distribute and support a complete range of air traffic and navigation service solutions that meet the expectations of access, equity, safety, efficiency and affordability, thereby supporting our customers and the ATM community at large
 It is an imperative that we stabilise and enhance our air traffic and navigation service provision in South Africa in order to create a platform from which we can leverage strategic partnerships, our global influence as well as harmonised technologies and methods to become the leading ANS provider in the AFI region, to secure our future growth, revenue, profit and relevance as a provider of choice
 Over the long term, we intend to expand further into selected markets around the globe, whilst at the same time expanding our range of services in air navigation that are appropriate for market needs
 Our business model will be supported through attracting, developing, retaining and appropriately rewarding a diverse and motivated team that has the right skills, experience, commitment and drive to implement this strategy, creating win-win situations
 The effective implementation of this strategy will ensure a well equipped resource base, enhance financial sustainability and support the global air navigation and safety plans
ATNS/HO/M00/06 – 04 P a g e 2 of 2 16th April 2009

Our areas of excellence are:
1. Business Intelligence
 We must excel at ensuring that we have strategic far-sightedness, detailed insight and understanding of global market dynamics, and readily available information on technological and business trends, suppliers, products, customers and competitors
2. Market Excellence
 We must excel at using relevant technology and expertise to maintain and develop our Air Traffic and Navigation Solutions to ensure that they are innovative, of high quality, reliable and affordable, whilst at the same time ensuring that our operations across the entire business are reliable, consistent, efficient and cost effective in order to meet customer needs as the provider of choice
3. Relationship Management
 We must excel at building lasting relationships with suppliers, customers and strategic partners and our people that are built on trust, are flexible, relevant, supportive, robust and are conducive to creating win-win situations
The strategy implementation process has begun in earnest and I am sure that many of you have already been involved in parts of the implementation within your respective teams. Where you have not yet been involved I urge you to make your contribution and to engage with management. There are 8 critical areas of the business that need our immediate intervention:
 Manage the training pipeline for ATC and technical staff
 Review and implement the HR plan to attract, retain, develop and reward people across all disciplines
 Develop and implement a succession plan across the organisation
 Develop and implement an integrated leadership model across the business (culture, accountability, communication and performance management)
 Review and implement the financial model to ensure long term commercial sustainability (revenue streams and cost management)
 Develop a marketing plan to address BI leverage, relationship management and key accounts
 Review, optimise and integrate MIS systems
 Review structure and business processes to implement the strategy
Further I intend visiting you all shortly together with the EXCO on the implementation of the strategy. I wish to apologize that the new structure has not yet been made available but there are still some considerations I wish to take into account – be assured however that this delay will not impact on the strategy implementation process.

Regards, PATRICK DLAMINI CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER ATNS

majestic mirage

19th Apr 2009, 15:45

That memo from the CEO is a cut and paste copy of the previous month. They focus ,sort of, on everything else and fotget about their biggest asset.

Talk is cheap and money buys the whiskey.

Beside myself

19th Apr 2009, 17:46

ATNS 4 life, are you kidding? I've been sitting here re-reading your post wondering if you're being serious or sarcastic. Either you're blessed with a very-easy-to-remember birthday or you've lied to protect your identity.

I had a whole barage of comments about you being 19 and making comments on complex politics in a company you could have worked for-for no longer than 18 months, but as I'm sure it's a red herring, I'll hold my tongue...

Let's assume you're serious...:bored:

Thanks for posting the same thing AGAIN for me to read a 3rd time! I'm afraid it still doesn't change anything. Please allow me to highlight a similar master plan for climbing Mount Everest
1. Start at the bottom
2. Climb to the top
3. Return to the bottom
4. Avoid death from steps 1 though 3!

Although I have a hard and fast plan on paper, it's gonna help me $od-all climbing a mountain. HOW are they doing what they propose to do. I'm not going to pick at every piece of the letter but would just like to point out one thing,

"Our business model will be supported through attracting, developing, retaining and appropriately rewarding a diverse and motivated team that has the right skills, experience, commitment and drive to implement this strategy, creating win-win situations"

Although I applaud the thought, when does it start? This topic was started by ATNS's ineffective drive to attract staff; of late the development of said staff seems retarded, recent history shows the company's inability to retain staff (in fact, barring their meagre retention scheme, they've done VERY little to prevent the exodus) and they're appropriately rewarding their staff (with the right skills, experience, commitment and drive) with an 8% increase and no annual bonus.
Great job guys, that'll do it:ok:

If you're being serious, then I'll be the first to say I admire your dedication to the company, goodness knows we all started out like that. I hope you remain blind to the "nasties" for as long as possible to prevent you falling into the realm of sceptics and pessimists.

If this post is purely meant to start a mudslinging battle, you got me :ok:

In any case let's see what happens. Alea jacta est!

Bavaria Light

20th Apr 2009, 17:34

I couldn't believe my eyes when I read ATNS 4 Life's post.
You should sign off as ATNS 4.

Maybe someone will be kind enough to help you get a life! :)

makeapullup

20th Apr 2009, 18:51

I'm actually crying for my old friends! Sorry guys.

ORANPO

20th Apr 2009, 19:06

ATNS, instead of worrying about people leaving, they more concerned (maandag chomma), about dress code, no t shirts , no beachwear, dog collars,those pathetic permits that let you do jackall at an airport that is basicly run by us ATCS, the guard house with the so called "navy seals" that really P*&&$# all of us off with their so called searches, let me not 4get bout the cellphone, PDA/Ipod issues...........welcome to ATNS Primary.

prascho

20th Apr 2009, 19:37

I'm not able to understand what really is the problem .....seems ATNS does't need ppl ,u don't like your working conditions but u r not leaving so what is the problem indeed.....if u don't like your job just leave:ok: lets get Russians, they r able to work for a bottle of vodka

Beside myself

20th Apr 2009, 20:46

Jeez! Don't get me started on the dress code issue. From what I understand it's to look "professional" for visiting people. The building is so &L00dy secure WE can barely get into it. :ugh::ugh::ugh:

It's amazing, that if you go through this entire thread, you'll find an insane amount of little things that P!$$ us off. It all adds up in the end. That's why people are upset!

ATNS 4 Life

21st Apr 2009, 13:30

listen - where i work the oldies complain like children about not earning enough. i agree with gold fishermans comments on comparing our (ur) salaries with the rest of the work forse. i'll have u know that my dad has 2 degrees and doesnt even earn what these complaining atc's earn - and from what i've heard half scraped through high school!

its sad days when people with possible the most secure jobs in the country right now who earn close to 40k complain more than 19year olds!:}

true, compare to dubai the salaries are pretty average, but LEAVE! don't sit here and moan and bring down the overall moral of those around you!

A T N S 4 L i f e

Ernie Sparks

21st Apr 2009, 15:28

Now there is the ATNS spirit I love so much. :ok:Its funny how these men and woman who you say have battled their way through High school, are so sought after around the world. People are leaving, or did you not notice?? That is what this whole thread has been about. Its people like you that are the problem within the Company, and it is because of people like you that your High school battlers will continue to leave. Glad to see you are trying to be part of the solution:eek:

Beside myself

21st Apr 2009, 16:16

ATNS 4 Life, I'm going to be quite blunt. Your posts reek of naivety! From beginning to end.
Furthermore, may I suggest that you read through this thread thoroughly before posting further. It was clear at first that you didn't read my post since you simply did exactly what it was I complained about. It is further evident, from your last post, that there are a number of posts you haven't read.
Complainng about salaries is only a small part of what we're talking about. Some very knowledgable people have brought up some exceedingly good points without mention of money. This leads me to my next:

When I read your rebuttle my first thought was that you may be from head office. Since clearly you've not yet had your leave cancelled, been asked to work extended hours, been called out on your off day or made to work every weekend for the last 5 months! However, after a re-read I can't help but notice the tell-tale signs of a youngster at the helm of your keyboard. What with the sms shorthand and the absence of capital letters? On top of that, it's clear you don't know how much ATC's earn. The final nail in the coffin was the "my dad's bigger than your dad" bit.

I tell you what... Spend the next couple of years working hard and become an ATC here. I truly hope you maintain your cheerful demeanor. I just hope that you aren't too disappointed when you're let down.

Skyjuggler

21st Apr 2009, 16:26

I have to agree...
If you don't like it... LEAVE. That's always been the head office motto. The only thing you forgot, ATNS 4 LIFE is, "We can replace you"!
That's the exact thing that got ATNS into trouble in the first place.:bored:

Instead of listening to the problems and offering a solution, just do nothing as the people who draw attention to the problems leave!:ugh::ugh:

leo20

22nd Apr 2009, 18:02

I just want to say the following;

1st - Catch awake up mate :zzz: You are still in your nappies, grow up first and then you can speak with the adults. :ugh:

2nd - In your interview, what did they offer you a BMW or an Audi after your 1 st year with ATNS. Guess what that is a lot of :mad: promises

3rd - You have posted the CEO's memo on the web, that is an Internal document for ATNS people only and you are not allowed to post it on a media network unless you have permission or you are looking for trouble because that is an immediate dismissal. So are you going to fess up or just shut up :mad:

As all the others said it is not just the money, its about working conditions and working hours

You Sir are an :8

bigmanatc

22nd Apr 2009, 20:21

I see that man who used to camo himself in a green suit is still in management..... :ugh::ugh::ugh: Wait till he sees your memo ATNS4life...:uhoh:

prascho

22nd Apr 2009, 20:56

Tnx guys, I'm sure now... SA is not what I'm looking for.:=

Bavaria Light

23rd Apr 2009, 07:37

Just please sshh, the grown-ups are talking!

CuitoCuanavale

23rd Apr 2009, 10:49

To the ATNS4Life person:-
You present yourself as a kid bogged down in a panoply of naivety. Read the previous posts first and proof read your conversions of thought to print.

Those 'overpaid' ATC's have every right to complain, irrespective of the gambit. I know the mind-set and circumstance very well within which they function, something I would imagine you are ill equipped to comprehend.

max1

23rd Apr 2009, 10:59

What exactly does that letter from your CEO mean?
It is just one big motherhood statement. We get them here in Oz all the time.
We are going to be the World leader....
We will implement Worlds Best Practice......
We will use leading technology..............
We will be the best place to work.................
We will motivate, train and reward our staff............
We will deliver the future...............
We will be client centric ...........
By consulting our customers..............

I wish all these 'big vision' people getting paid big bucks would stop talking about how great they think things will be with their vision and focus and get on and do it, or just bugger off.

How about a few dates, and timelines, when they will actually deliver on these promises. Maybe put a bit of pressure on themselves to actually stump up with the goods. If they don't hit the mark it's 'see you later' time.

Sounds like the usual oxygen thieves to me.

skybound1

23rd Apr 2009, 17:46

Well said Max1,

Its all good to have a vision for the future and say We will.... we will...
We should rather be given time frames,when will things that have been promised and said be delivered!

ie
In XXXX(date) you will have....
We will deliver XXXX in ...
specifics!

Beside myself

23rd Apr 2009, 18:19

ABOSLUTELY:ok:
I think that's more what can be considered "constructive criticism". It's not gona solve all the problems but I think it's a step in the right direction.

I'd hate to use a pilots type analogy, but pilots always b!tch if you don't keep them in the picture. Why should the ATC's be any different. Let us know what's happening, and by when!

We all know head office read these forums... I'd like to ask them to take heed of what's being said. Yes, we might be moaning a lot, but these are the REAL issues. The things that negatively affect us, your employees. Things we've been trying to get across for years...

vector240forbogey

24th Apr 2009, 09:05

We can talk all we want but as long as the traffic is moving the fat cats at HQ will pat themselves on the back for a job well done.:D

vector240forbogey

25th Apr 2009, 11:20

Isnt it sad that we got an increase of 8%, where even the truck drivers in SA got a 11% increase?:{
Where is the global economic crisis for them?:confused:

galliwalli

25th Apr 2009, 12:42

Why are the SA ATC's not pressuring their union to persue the essential service issue with greater fervour???
From what I've heard, the union has already consulted with an advocate and wants to persue the issue. If successful in de-classifying as an essential service, and with the world cup happening next year, it should put you guys in a very strong negotiating position, but action needs to be taken now!!!

worn chair

25th Apr 2009, 13:14

No ATS system is perfect. Especially ATNS. But trust me when I say that there are neighbouring FIR's that are much worse off. Yet there are a handfull of dedicated people in these systems who tirelessly work towards making these systems better. Just like in ATNS.

I've seen both sides of the coin. So to those Eurocat controllers who are interested in a one or two year contract in Africa, there are opperunities elsewhere than just ATNS. If they dont want you, move north. Those guys left behind in Namibia are in urgent need of ATC's. The world-cup will bring many challenges, and a need for qualified eurocat instructors. The new Eurocat system should be up and running shortly before the world-cup, and there's nobody to man it.

Beside myself

25th Apr 2009, 16:01

In other news. ATC's not belonging to the union were supposed to see the benefit of their 8% increase with their present pay slip. They were also supoosed to receive written confirmation of said increase...

Anyone want to guess what happened...?

NOTHING:ugh::ugh:

No increase, no letter, no courtesy sorry but we're busy with...
Nothing!!
Just as was said, let us know what the #ELL is going on!

porra

25th Apr 2009, 17:05

As I was made to understand it - ATC's belong to the collective bargaining unit - it was people/posts not covered by a collective bargaining unit that were to receive the 8%.

Beside myself

26th Apr 2009, 08:35

Ah, I guess that then makes sense.
I'll read it again to make sure but that being the case, I retract my comment and apologise:ouch:

radioexcel

1st May 2009, 21:15

Porra......:zzz::{ Sorry to see you also gave up!!! We will miss you surely!! RE

Why don't we have a strong union like in France or Spain??

RE:E

porra

2nd May 2009, 08:10

You're too kind RE!!:)

Why don't we have a Union - period!?

P

Voel

2nd May 2009, 14:39

Those guys left behind in Namibia are in urgent need of ATC's.
Hi Worn Chair. I guesss you will have more guys leaving than joining. Heard another 3 have their CV submitted elsewhere and one was even successful. But to be honest I really miss those dedicated few.

7Hulk

2nd May 2009, 21:57

Just to reiterate what was posted earlier, AS LONG AS THE TRAFFIC IS MOVING, NOTHING WILL BE DONE! The EXEC's will still get their seven digit salaries even though they don't make the decisions. The BOARD makes the decisions, oh I forgot they also need to get paid. (70% of your salary budget gone - LOL) So ATNS'ers why don't you all go see your doctors, psychologists or psychiatrists and have them check you all for stress/depression because you all sound 'depressed'. That is my advice. Use it or lose it!

square-head

3rd May 2009, 05:40

Worn chair said:
So to those Eurocat controllers who are interested in a one or two year contract in Africa, there are opperunities elsewhere

I believe the recruitment of expats has been going on for years now, but nobody (management) wants to employ them:ugh:. What happended to my and other's application. Maybe Voel can answer that

Voel

3rd May 2009, 14:36

Maybe Voel can answer that

Sorry, can't answer that as I have given up already (both mentally and physically):}

Beside myself

4th May 2009, 10:14

Hey 7Hulk. I thought maybe the land of the sand had gone to you head and you'd forgotten about us:) Then again, you've probably been on leave :ok:

What you say is true, and it's never going to change unless something is done about it. Was there ever any headway made about changing ATC status as an essential service? That'll get the okes at the top nervous!:bored:

Skyjuggler

4th May 2009, 10:20

I was going through some old threads and found this comment.

Made 26th May 2006 by Makeapullup.

"We don't do the rumour thing here in sunny SA.

2010 thats still far away, who needs a plan!

cheers"

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Who'd have thought the same response would apply, 3 years later and just over 1 year before it kicks off.

Gotta love it!

thealps

9th May 2009, 19:39

Hey guys!

So, back to the original subject; any news on what's going on staff-wise? Only people leaving and no new ones arriving?
What about the lease of Europeans, any word on that?

126,7

10th May 2009, 11:14

I heard a handful of Danish ATCOs have already signed up.....can anybody confirm what the conditions of their contracts are?

porra

10th May 2009, 11:16

Hi again - I heard from a large hairy birdie that ATNS and an ANSP in EU were finalizing the details to the rumoured "lease" - the ANSP's Union stepped in and reminded her members of the IFATCA by-laws instructing members to not enter into talks with ANSP's who are having management-staffing issues. Rumour had it that as a result the interested ATC's withdrew their interest...
Just a rumour of course...:suspect:

P

Beside myself

10th May 2009, 20:39

Yup, I'm afraid I heard something similar.
It seems the company takes it's one foot out just long enough to get the other in.

At the moment we seem to have the FIFA world cup as a yard stick, which isn't a bad thing. But now with less than 400 days to go the longer it's left without an actionable solution, the more dire it becomes. Exponentially so!

vector240forbogey

11th May 2009, 15:13

Anyone heard the one about the ATSA's thats sitting at home(2months),earning a salary of course,because they have not signed contracts with the company yet. Some dispute with the ATA.:confused:

Even if we got staff,we don't have staff.:ugh:

thealps

11th May 2009, 16:29

Sounds like a really big hairy birdie to me...
So, what is the view of the SA:n union when it comes to the possible "lease" of foreigners? Are they definitely, under all circumstances, against it?

thealps

11th May 2009, 17:43

About those Danish ATCOs that supposedly have signed up. Any truth to that rumour? Anyone knows?
Wasn´t there Danish ATCOs in SA the last time as well and, as I understood it, it didn't turn out that well and everyone left again? Is that true?
A lot of "????????????????":ugh:

126,7

12th May 2009, 09:31

the Alps

I don't know anything about the previous Danish atcos in SA, but this time around there are 4 approach controllers going, all destined for Johannesburg.

Porra

Why don't you tell is which union got the better of its members and got the ansp to withdraw from the lease? Is it a secret?

porra

15th May 2009, 18:47

Heard it was Skyguide. Heard it was swissatca that put a stop to it.

P

Spuds McKenzie

16th May 2009, 07:22

A lease that hasn't been signed (as yet) can't be withdrawn.

geordieradar

16th May 2009, 12:19

dude,if you want to experience South Africa and all its wonders.Save yourself the pain of working for ATNS.Go on a 2 week holiday!!!

pare

20th May 2009, 01:22

Does anybody have any idea what's the status on those Filipino ATCs applying for Area jobs in SA?

Beside myself

31st May 2009, 10:39

Time for a new gripe!

A number of months ago the Powers-that-be hired an outside company to chat to us about the things we were unhappy with and all that rot.
From what I gathered, one of the main things that were mentioned was the fact that the upper echelons of management simply don't tell us what's going on.

It's now been MANY months later and ironically, we've never been given ANY feedback from these "forums" we were asked to attend! NADA!!!

Well.... There's yer problem!

skybound1

1st Jun 2009, 14:37

Oh yes I remember doing that survey,:ugh:
what happened to the feedback:zzz::zzz:

Capedoctor

5th Jun 2009, 20:52

under the carpet with all the money they are going to pay you when the arbitrations finally get under way.3months behind our yearly increase and still waiting.:(

Skyjuggler

7th Jun 2009, 17:21

:)
You know, it's been many years since my direct association with ATNS, but some things NEVER change!

They should see this coming and start the negotiations in January. Or November even :ok:

In the midst of the economic crisis, ATC's are sitting with their less than adequate increase they got (allegedly) last year, and waiting patiently this year (for a change).

It reminds me of a certain idiom...
"When days are dark, answers from management are few!!!"

Beside myself

9th Jun 2009, 15:34

Oh look... ANOTHER memo, telling us ANOTHER company will be taking ANOTHER look at the company to better it...

I'm sorry Patrick, from experience: I attend, give my opinions (I try to be objective and constructive) and NOTHING EVER HAPPENS!!!!:ugh::ugh:

This time, we're off to the pub instead... Send them there, then we'll tell them how we really feel!!!

VectorBoy69

10th Jun 2009, 03:56

Seems like a Rerun.

Last time the Danish visited SA shores they earned Two Salaries, Lived in Townhouses the above average experiance ATC could not afford, drove a better than average car and had more leave than any SA ATC.

Funny thing is some South African ATC had to give them instruction. Unity was never big in ATNS. No doubt Management will dangle the usual, "Two Week Old Carrot" and someone will bite :D. It must be nice to work next to someone from another country, do the same job, have more experiance than them and earn less :ok:.

The once profitable college has been to nothing more than a nursery school. Courses have been cancelled due to lack of instructors and this at a time of Huge ATC Shortage. Students may get sent overseas at a cost that would prabably 5-10 time that of SA courses.

Guild will probably make a half baked attempt at stopping this but expecting them to have a proper legal fight is like expecting The Stormers to win 2010 world cup (Football just aint their Game and besides they are't even doing that well at Rugby)

I know of an ATC that went to Canada and return because people didnt want to train. The 2010 World Cup is your "Calling Card" SA needs staff and they cannot get it without SA ATC Instructors cooperation.

Grow a backbone boys. Refuse to train the overseas controllers until salay packages are equaled. Do you believe that you are less worthy than they are? From this side of the world it is clear that SA controllers can play with the best of them. Stop being a bunch of Complaining Sissies and Man/Woman Up.

ZRH

10th Jun 2009, 07:16

Anyone know where I can find the boat schedule in/out of Durban ?:eek:

May the "whatever you believe in" hold your hands during these trying times !

RadarMaggot

14th Jun 2009, 12:27

Right on the money VB69

This whole problem started maybe 10+ years ago. Since I've been in the company the ATC's has not even once stood together when it comes to the big issues. Sure, everyone complains in the tea room, but when the fight's supposed to start, the team spirit dwindles into oblivion.

So, much of the situation we find ourselves in is only our own fault!!

After the salary arbitration for this year, Solidarity is going to tackle (well, try to anyway) the Essential Service issue. GOOD LUCK BOYS - IT AIN'T GONNA BE 'CANCELLED'. The only thing ATNS has to utter to whoever will decide on this is: "World Cup 2010" and then it's game over...

Well, then we need a Minimum Service Agreement according to the Labour Law, but again ATNS says: "What you are working now IS a minimum service".

So, as long as there is no backbone, we can only do like jellyfish and drift in the ATNS current.

That's my 5c worth (we don't make 2c anymore...)

makeapullup

14th Jun 2009, 13:16

Hey RM

Easy to talk about standing together and tea room talk, however reality is its a tough time to find a new job!

M

126,7

14th Jun 2009, 22:36

Yeah well, as long as the Saffers can't stand together, it will be our chance to come and live and work in SA under European labour law and earn European salaries and work under European terms of employment. Aint life grand. Thanks guys! Its a sweet deal.:ok:

thealps

15th Jun 2009, 12:22

So, no one from here will be going. Apparently we're to expensive for ATNS. The whole thing "postponed indefinitely due to the decrease in air traffic etc.", says ATNS....

Anyone with some more info? Is someone going?

126,7 - You got a serious offer or are you just playing around..? :rolleyes:

RadarMaggot

18th Jun 2009, 01:26

Easy to talk about standing together and tea room talk, however reality is its a tough time to find a new job!

Whose afraid of the big bad wolf? Just turn the light on :ooh:

Is there a store room full of qualified and current ATC's that we don't know about? :rolleyes:

VectorBoy69

19th Jun 2009, 11:50

Right on the Money Maggot

The wolf threatens to huff and puff and blow the house down, and all the little pigs start running :eek:.

If the house is built out of solid brick and mortar (unity). Let him blow. He'd just be waisting his breath :ugh:.

No one can fire you if you refuse to give training. Someone should have negotiated Sector Capacity and Minimum Service Level Agreement 10 years ago. But instead they were off to IFATCA confrences, Drinking Johnny Walker Black, Eating R1000 prawn platters and smokeing R200 cigars:D.

You dont even have to got hat far. Work to rule. Instead of going the extra mile. Follow ATNS and ICAO rules. Bet you wouldnt be getting six aircrafts airbourn in a 10 min slot if you used 2 min on Departure and I haven't even factored in a slower Aircraft ahead. Bet you wouldn't get in as many Aircraft if only the Landing Runway was used for landings. Bet you'd have way to few staff for 2010 if there are no instructors.

But hey we are ATCs and simple laws of Mathematics don't apply. We bend the rules and therefore, "No ATC Staffing Crises :D." YOU ARE YOUR OWN WORST ENERMY.

Hope and Pray some, Nelson Mandela, Robin Hood, Ghandi, character comes to the front maybe then change will be effected :ok:.

leo20

19th Jun 2009, 13:46

I just heard and saw :8 a very distrubing thing yesterday :\

A Technical guy only working 2 years for ATNS at an outstation, with no extra qaulifications(degrees) just ATNS courses earning almost R5000 more than a PATC with 9 years experience (Radar&App&Twr) working at the same out station :mad:

An Admin support person joining the company earning the same as an ATSA Co-ord with at least 3 years experience :ugh:

Certain out stations that required upgrades 2 years ago to assist our clients but they are still waiting for the basic things :yuk:

Now HQ wants to say that ATC's are dead weight :confused: and that they waist money on their salaries and Ops requirements. Why the heck did they then move into another office block, who the hell is paying for the rent, office furniture and extra staff to work in that building. Rather get rid of the dead weight over at HQ and let the out stations do their own thing as we have been doing that all a long. As if the survey is going to help them :ugh:, just go and look back in your files and see that we have been saying the same thing all along. Bunch of Idoits :ouch:

makeapullup

20th Jun 2009, 13:39

I don't even see a radar hall full of ATC's, doesn't seem to cause anyone to shake!!

People have been voting with their feet for years, no change back home though.

Not giving dual and a go-slow/work to rule aren't really the same thing!

Good luck I say again.

RadarMaggot

21st Jun 2009, 13:25

That's because we don't need a hall full of ATC's if we bend or break a few rules on the shift to get all the aircraft in and out... :ugh: If the managers are going to turn a blind eye, who's going to notice?

We'll make sure the roster covers ALL the positions - and with that WE make the boss look good... Everything always looks better on paper at the beancounters' offices. :ok:

Meanwhile we're s:mad:ing ourselves because there is going to be a whole lot of paperwork coming our way... :ugh::ugh:
And then there'll be a whole lotta shakin'

Not giving dual and a go-slow/work to rule aren't really the same thing!

But you can accomplish oh so much with it!!

Someone should have negotiated Sector Capacity and Minimum Service Level Agreement 10 years ago.

Essential Service - Never going to be cancelled. So according to the Labour Law we SHOULD have a Minimum Service Agreement. Not so according to the pro at Solidarity...:D We apparently don't qualify or our jobs doesn't fall in this category. Brilliant - no matter how you look at it, we're still scr:mad:ed!!

Sector Capacity - utter these words and suddenly you get the fear of God preached into you for daring to speak your mind.:}

Why the heck did they then move into another office block, who the hell is paying for the rent, office furniture and extra staff to work in that building.

Maybe the success of a company is measured by how many buildings you occupy:confused:, just guessing.

The journey of a thousand miles start with the first step - not a giant leap people!!!

leo20

11th Jul 2009, 06:41

I don't see any comments from the SA ATC's so I take it you all are happy with the :mad:poor 8% increase.

Capedoctor

13th Jul 2009, 20:51

Whats to say? Solidarity f????? it up again. But not to worry, you will be able to claim overtime when you give up your off days during SWC. All to help the jam stealers up at HQ look good.(it is voluntary though):D

leo20

15th Jul 2009, 10:31

Did Solidarity F:mad: or did the chaps at JNB ask to much again like they allways do:ouch:

Regarding the SWC is easy, get all the ex-ATC's waisting oxygen at HQ to go and do a quick refesher course (seeing that they can always change the laws to suite them) and validate in the Gauteng area and work then for the period the SWC is on. Then when the SWC is finished they can go back and waist more oxygen at HQ, heck even open another office building.

atco749

16th Jul 2009, 18:04

heard some ATCOs from East Africa going down south......rumour or not?????

GML

27th Jul 2009, 07:39

If only it was 8%....more like 6.5%.
Arbitrator decided that ATNS could distribute the given 8% increase between basic salary and OJTI allowance. So, they decided to increase OJTI by 1.5 and give you 6.5 on basic……

The quiet man

27th Jul 2009, 19:22

Not even 6.5%.

There was no increase in the allowances(Unit allowance, USC), that in some cases make about 40% of the atcs income.

Do the maths, I will be surprised if your income was increased above 5%.

Talking about 8% or even 6,5% is helping to spread ATNS's lie. :yuk:

Inflation here was above 13% for 2008 and 8% expected for 2009... we are loosing money big time :(

GML

28th Jul 2009, 05:02

Agree, 6.5% is optimistic. But hey, at least I’m not on “”pay-to-hold”….

hermy1

3rd Aug 2009, 00:53

there is a lady from Ghana validated FAEL for about a year now

leo20

5th Aug 2009, 17:11

Yes, the more BEE the better, because that is what ATNS is all about lately. What a lot of :mad: Appointing new Senoir staff that are BEE, I wonder if they got it on merit or colour we are like the Springbok team, you can play but only if you are the right colour.:ugh: I hope this issue will bite SA in the a:mad: one day.

Avi8tor

21st Aug 2009, 12:08

Seen in the Radar room in Dubai....

Advert from ATNS .....

looking to borrow 40 controllers (20 radar/20tower) for a 6 month contract,EURO90k/yr, to put the finsihing touches to our 2010 world cup planning...

Needless to say its brought the house down with people laughing.

makeapullup

21st Aug 2009, 15:57

That is a funny ad...

20 radar types to "finish" off the planning:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

That's almost more than the current ACC contingent.

Tax free??

ZRH

22nd Aug 2009, 15:16

Well I guess that ad says it all, ATNS has finally spilled the beans. "Desperation" A little too little too late !
They thrive on crises management !!

My heart really goes out to the ATC's in JHB and the rest of the country for that matter.

May the force be with you !!

leo20

23rd Aug 2009, 18:55

As always HO screws it up but will not admit it :ugh:

But the ATC's in the field will come and save the day :ok: and get a tap on the back if he/she is lucky and the CEO and his partners drives away with new car and about 2 mil in their bank accounts :rolleyes:

All Talk & No Service

At least they provide us all with some good jokes

royaljet

25th Aug 2009, 18:28

Well done ATNS, you once again "managed" to prove yourself as company of choice.

I would like to know how other ATNS employees think about the salary on offer for the " SWC ATC's"?

Is it just me or are the ATC's gonna roll over and play dead again? Surely, with the SWC approaching fast, this is the unique oppurtunity for all of us to stand together and put our foot down. Lets not forget that management has already made it known that they rely on the pride of ATNS controllers to make SWC a success.

ATNS pleaded poverty during salary negotiations, however they are willing to pay top dollar, sorry euro for international controllers. Where is Soladarity now?

Blockla

25th Aug 2009, 20:11

ATNS pleaded poverty during salary negotiations, standard...
however they are willing to pay top dollar, sorry euro for international controllers. Sorry dudes but if this is top $$$ then I'm pretty sure you won't be getting many experienced European/Middle East controllers for a visit even short term... Unless it's accompanied by decent "living" allowances.

Good luck to you all.

126,7

26th Aug 2009, 05:52

Agree with Blockla,

That money isn't much considering that people who do make the 6 month move have to pay for their appartments overseas and in SA with that money, same goes for cars. Unless ATNS is chipping in for that....

Kertez

26th Aug 2009, 09:13

Can't we just say, that this 'recruitment campaign' is a big joke !!
If for some reason people would go there for 5-6 Months to watch the WC, play some golf and travel a bit around SA, well ok I guess.....But from what I've heard you will be working a pretty crappy roster with no leave entitlement during your stay. Well hopefully they have tv's in the twr, cause that's where you'll be watching the footie !

On top of that , as mentioned in previous posts, most people still have some kind of accommodation expenses somewhere else...So unless they're looking for people who are in between jobs or retired controllers, good luck getting any folks with the experience required......

ATNS you gonna have to do better than that!

galliwalli

27th Aug 2009, 08:24

ATNS can bring as many Euro-packaged controllers as they want, they will not get any training from Rand-packaged instructors :=

tobzalp

27th Aug 2009, 11:24

I haven't really read the thread but in Australia saw an offer floating around for the World Cup. The pay was **** and no holidays. You might get dudes from Nigeria or something.

Blockla

27th Aug 2009, 17:56

Good to see the staffing crisis is over downunder, Plazbot... Out of interest was it an ASA "sponsored/supported" offer?

Beside myself

30th Aug 2009, 07:32

Yep... That advert passed around the station!!

#1. It's LA MERCY you dolts! Not Lemesie! If you don't know how to spell it, either phone someone who does, or call it King Shaka! Thsi is a prime example of someone at HQ being paid enormous amounts to make us look like idiots, on an international level!:ugh:

#2. 90 000 Euro? That's a whole lot more than us. From what I gather, it's not a particularly attractive package for internationals either.
My question: A number of times ATNS has come forth saying our salaries are competitive internationaly; is this not proof that they're not? They have to offer more than double what we earn, and it still isn't enough.

cripton

2nd Sep 2009, 15:54

ATNS can bring as many Euro-packaged controllers as they want, they will not get any training from Rand-packaged instructors.

REALLY..... Who wanna bet?:ok:

eurocat2000

2nd Sep 2009, 17:05

I am that betting person ....
Once you work 6 out of 7 days during the SWC, any help will do....
See you soon!! :)

makeapullup

2nd Sep 2009, 18:09

It's FOOTBALL you dummies.:ugh::ugh:

thealps

4th Sep 2009, 14:04

I also have a hard time believing that ATNS will find staff for such a short amount of time. Who would resign to go and work for 5 months in S.A, for that kind of money? :ugh:
No, if they really want and need staff for the SWC, they'll have to come up with a better solution. And I guess pretty quickly.......

VectorBoy69

4th Sep 2009, 15:10

I'm in for the bet.

ATNS always have a plan. When the Danish controller were hired they spent bucket lodds of money. If you ask anyone at headoffice the controllers were being paid exactly what a SA controller with 5 years experiance was.

Yet, these controllers could afford renting townhouses most SA ATCs couldn't. They drove better vehicles better than many SA ATCs at the time. They went on vacations more often and to more expensive places than most SA ATCs can afford. And they managed to maintain there households abroad. I am pretty average with Mathematics but this has to have been a story of five loaves and two fish, in order to balance such budgets on only a SA ATC salary.

The grapevine had it that they were being paided their normal salaries, plus an ATNS salary. This could conveniently be justified as a service fee to the Danish ATC company. But, hey, thats only Rumour.

Whats worse, someone actually trained them. I wonder why? Could it be the increase in OJTI allowance?

Funny the SAAF ATC courses were not good enough ten years back. If you joined ATNS from the SAAF, you had to do a recourse. This very day aspireing SA ATC cadets are sitting in Mpumalanga being trained by the SAAF. Why? Because the colledge no longer exists. Another yard stick that conveniently moved.

The yard stick always moves to suite ATNS. Sadly no SA controllers are brave enough to make a stand against them.

Dusty Sandmann

4th Sep 2009, 17:29

Don’t single out SA controllers mate. Bravery has nothing to do with it anyway, it’s called self preservation and I can’t think of many controllers that have taken a stand against their management and got what they wanted. Can you?

There’s nothing to worry about for anybody. The Controllers in South Africa will break their backs during the World cup and they will enjoy doing it. They’ve always been perfectly capable of dealing with the traffic, the controller exodus to the Middle East and whatever other mismanagement problems they were given, just like most controllers out there.

If ATNS manages to get some controllers to SA in time, someone will train them. There might be one or two who refuses, but others will do their jobs just like any other day. Employer – employee….. That’s just the way it is.

The SWC will come and go and the credit will go to every minister, organizer, team, coach, player, stadium, police officer, fan, airline, ATC manager, administration staff member, secretary, assistant and cleaner………but only one air miss or worse and guess where the credit will go??

RadarMaggot

5th Sep 2009, 16:49

I am that betting person ....
Once you work 6 out of 7 days during the SWC, any help will do....
See you soon!!

Sadly no SA controllers are brave enough to make a stand against them.

Don’t single out SA controllers mate. Bravery has nothing to do with it anyway, it’s called self preservation and I can’t think of many controllers that have taken a stand against their management and got what they wanted. Can you?

If ATNS manages to get some controllers to SA in time, someone will train them.

All I say is stick around. Things are about to change at ATNS!! The people will stand together (forced if necessary), and if you don't, I will introduce you to my bat called Sparky. :} see you in the parking lot...

Unfortunately the time has come to show the people the correct path. Time for self preservation has run out and unity is the only way to go. If you havn't heard this yet in the New SA - Majority Rules!!!

Maggot out

eurocat2000

6th Sep 2009, 07:55

Hey Maggot, :confused:…you obviously
a. have a lot to learn and
b. are new to the Ethos and Unity Principals, or lack thereof, of South African ATC’s

Sorry I forgot, you are going to (Force) them …:=... Good Luck!!

as I said before .... See you soon….!!

BTW – the word 'Ethos' means …the character or disposition of a community, group, person, etc. :ok:

RadarMaggot

6th Sep 2009, 14:16

eurocat2000

Stick around...

cripton

17th Sep 2009, 07:00

Radarbug...:D
Two things;
... you are fired (Donald Trumph) if you go against the company.
... you are being sued (any bodily harm or damage to property).

Not that it matters, I'll train anyone if I feel like it.:ok:

thealps

19th Sep 2009, 17:47

Anyone knows what ATNS are doing???? They probably don't know themselves either...

I sent an e-mail to the address given in the ad to ask a couple of questions about how they plan to execute the whole thing of hireing staff for 5 months. Questions that naturally come to mind are for example; how will it work with housing in S.A? Will there be any extra pay for the fact that most would keep their present housing at home? Will the flights be paid for? etc., etc.

I also specifically wrote that I'm not applying, just wanted to ask a few questions about how it's all planned.

I mean there's got to be something tempting they can offer (except the salary:D) if they're counting on getting a handful of qualified ATCOs to fly in on short notice...

The reply I got was this;

"Thank you for submitting your CV/Resume through to us. We will revert to you closer to the time."

Very well done ATNS! Really helpful....

woozoo

29th Sep 2009, 21:56

One of the biggest reasons for the "lack of leverage" by SA controllers is not enough black controllers at the so-called bigger centres. Mayby the gauteng boys and girls should stop being so racist and validate a couple of brothers and sisters. OOPS!:oh: DID I SAY THAT OUT LOUD?

cripton

30th Sep 2009, 09:51

We have tried but seems like some people just don’t get it….. Maybe we should just give it to them, seems like that is the only way some wants it in life. Power to those who stopped blaming and started doing….:ok:

126,7

1st Oct 2009, 15:10

Heard that ATNS has signed 23 foreign ATCOS for 6 month contracts. The bulk of those foreigners coming from Skyguide. This is the story being spread by ATNS.....anybody know more? Because I for one don't believe them.

Goldfish Jack

2nd Oct 2009, 05:34

You believe something that comes out of Isando............well i needed a good laugh this morning...:ok:

thealps

2nd Oct 2009, 07:51

Heard that ATNS has signed 23 foreign ATCOS for 6 month contracts. The bulk of those foreigners coming from Skyguide.

Is this true??? Anyone???

Gianni17

2nd Oct 2009, 13:11

Hi all,

As far as I know there is not a single controller from Skyguide that have signed to come to SA,and I'm here in Skyguide.

Here they have informed us that apparently ATNS is searching for people which are cheaper than those from Skyguide(rumors are they are looking somewhere in Eastern Europe,I think maybe Bulgarian people)

If they sign people from Skyguide they would need to pay them as they did for those Danish guys working there and that would be a contract from heaven(but they are not willing to spend as much I guess),I think some of you understand what I mean,am I right 126,7?

Gianni17

2nd Oct 2009, 13:46

As well I know that the SA Union aproached Union of Skyguide and they said that they will advise people not to go to SA unless SA Union accepts this.

To be honest,I wouldn't go there and have a feeling "we don't want you here" behind my back as it happenned previosly with the mentioned Danish guys.

As well I understand the SA controllers feeling since there is someone sitting next to you earning 3 times more and having more holidays,car rented by the company,house as well etc.

Cheers all.

Capedoctor

3rd Oct 2009, 19:40

Watch this spot boys and girls. The STAND has started. The Ojtis in Capetown have already started to not give dual to any new recruits.We have 4 waiting to start in the wings,so now the ball is in HQs court. Lets see if anyone is going to get off of their lard ##ses and try sort this one out.:=

SINGAPURCANAC

4th Oct 2009, 10:20

[QUOTE][rumors are they are looking somewhere in Eastern Europe,I think maybe Bulgarian people)
/QUOTE]

It should be quite interesting contract because Bulgarian ATCOs have good deal with their employer.At least comparing it with Bulgarian standard.
South East Europe-If they could find ATCOs interested nothing below 5000/6000 Eurs per month,net salary + other benefits,accomodation,tickets, some percent to their current employer etc. It will cost SA around 10 000+ eur per atco per month.

prascho

4th Oct 2009, 18:25

Yeop u r right about The Bulgarians, its not just a rumour.
I dont think that they r able to pay for us ...lets get Russians, there is just 1 problem, they dont speak english:sad:

The quiet man

5th Oct 2009, 07:31

As usual, too little, too late, too desperate, too useless...

It would have been cheaper and safer to keep all the SA ATCOS that left elsewhere and the ones that are packing their stuff, but....

2010 is going to be an intersting year.

porra

5th Oct 2009, 11:19

Just heard from a friend that ATNS have held a meeting discussing a possible R250 000 "bonus" for selected ATC staff should the SWC run smoothly..:suspect:

(edit - detail added)

The informer went on to say that this came directly from CEO to FACT staff following their refusal to train new staff..

Beside myself

5th Oct 2009, 13:44

Oh for goodness sake...

SHOW US THE MONEY!!!!

Who is going to be the "selected staff"? No doubt the bunch at the top who will take credit for things run smoothly while the operational staff do all the hard work!!!

Where are they going to get R250 000 for the staff when 8% was too much.

On the other hand, if they do pay it, it'll probably come with yet another hefty retention!!!

Sigh, once again, too little too late! To solve all these problems they should have taken their thumbs out of their A$$es a LONG time ago!!!

Rant over

Beside myself

5th Oct 2009, 13:50

Okay, I've calmed down a little now...:}

In all seriousness ATNS... Why do we have to go onto forums to get bits of info that have been "leaked"? What ever happened to "Open, honest communication"?

The biggest problem you face with the staff uprising I believe stems from us being treated like mushrooms. (Kept in the dark and fed $#!+). We know you read these forums, so why not address the problems and stick to your word!

ASD

5th Oct 2009, 14:33

a possible R250 000 "bonus" for selected ATC staff should the SWC run smoothly

Too many variables in that sentence...

POSSIBLE R250 000 - so it could mean R0

SELECTED ATC staff - could be one person (Alternatively they mean they have set aside R250000 as a bonus for the entire atc staff compliment, hmmm that equates to what, less than R1000 each?)

SWC run smoothly - Define run smoothly? One delay and it wasnt run smooth enough hence no bonus?

Sounds like lots of promises yet again.

porra

5th Oct 2009, 16:29

My (broken down) statement was sent to me in an sms and posted as received.

I shall quiz the sender for more info.

Smirre13

5th Oct 2009, 21:28

Hey Porra,

Was on leave for a while. YAY!
1st I heard of R250k was because of your previous post from collegue who asked me.
No one (I asked at work), that was in the meeting with the CEO knows anything about it.

radioexcel

6th Oct 2009, 17:08

Hi Porra!!!!;)

Vreet te veel sand??? or should I say, we already miss you!!:ok:

Come back and help us sort out this problem.:E

No more training to any new ATC's in Cape Town!

Promisses from the CEO on last weeks meeting of what to expect should have been made available by Thursday, but it did not realize.

Regarding next year with the WC???? Can only say "It's going to be rough":O

RE:E

Skyjuggler

15th Oct 2009, 19:13

Allow me to contribute to the rumour mill:
I've just heard that a contingent of foreigners are headed for Johannesburg at a package of over 6 000 euros/month... This seems contrary to what was written in an email from head office about the salary packages and never being paid mroe than SA ATC's...

Could they have lied to us?:eek:

It doesn't look like they're going to be trained though... Let the games begin. Good luck guys and gals...:ok:

jbayfan

15th Oct 2009, 19:23

Is the CEO the former head of SAA Cargo? If so, you can have him.

Gianni17

16th Oct 2009, 16:14

OK now,

If the package for the foreigners is 6000 Euros that is more than 60000ZAR per month and this is better than going to the desert.

This is even better than what famous Danish controllers use to get in the days when they were there.:D

Does the package cover accommodation and car as well?I will not accept anything less than a Peugeot.:rolleyes:

My question is,where do I sign in to work for this money?

Just a joke,I would never do this to my friends in Joburg.

I think there are too many rumours going on about SA and ATNS.

One other question is,why woudn't some people train foreigners who come there to help,it is not their fault that they have signed a better contract with ATNS?!

Cheers all,

Gianni

radioexcel

19th Oct 2009, 21:28

Just something to think about.

Abu Dhabi Night shift needs 4 to 5 controllers(Approach and Tower/Gmc) to complete a 9 hour night shift as they are pretty busy tilll about 3am.
The Area also have about 4 to 5 controllers just to make things work.

As I believe, most flight during the WC is planned during the night in SA as some stations already run close to maximum capacity during normal daytime operation.

Cape Town presently have 2 controllers (Approach and Tower/GMC) managing the night shift. To be able to handle a busy night shift, it should be increased to at least 4. This means an increase in staff of at least 20 Tower and Approach rated ATC's minimum.

To train any Tower or Appraoch ATC they need at least 100 hours(Already qualified staff at any other local or overseas station with experience).
At present two new Approach and two new Tower controllers can be trained and be qualified simultaniously only after 3 months doing max training per month. This is only 4 new half breeds every 3 months. Cross training(App and Twr and Twr and APP) means that only after 6 months you will have 4 fully Tower and Approach qualified ATC's.

WE NEED A MINIMUM OF 20

There is no way in hell this can be achieved:E in the time left.

I am not even refering to training on the two Area sectors where the same need to happen.

The golden answer here(in all news papers) is "The Military controllers will help out"

They need exactly the same training as any other overseas controller who are interested in taking up the challenge to come and help us.

NOT negative but only looking the facts in the eye:O

RE:oh:
RMK/ Still no new training happening:oh:

MaydayM

20th Oct 2009, 04:47

HEY PORRA

How is it going in the land of sand?

Stuur vir ons n paar dadels!!

BlueSkye

20th Oct 2009, 12:05

The Area also have about 4 to 5 controllers just to make things work.

Not really relevant to the thread but 9 needed to make it work. Out of the 8 hours on shift 5,5 is spent working (your arse off).

makeapullup

21st Oct 2009, 09:59

Shoo, luckily you guys get 3 days off after that traffic!:ok:

mx1

25th Oct 2009, 18:24

ther aer going to be so many delays when acft have to go to the smaller stations during the SWC.
Welcome to Africa:ok:

Juggie1

6th Nov 2009, 17:44

Bafana might win the WC providing they travel by bus.Some teams might still be in en-route holds by kick-off!! (Nelspruit)

RadarMaggot

13th Nov 2009, 13:33

The following article was taken from www.engineeringnews.co.za (http://www.engineeringnews.co.za)

Trade union Solidarity on Monday called for air traffic regulation and
control to no longer be considered an essential service, as this would allow
air controllers to strike legally.

The union lodged a document with the Essential Services Committee (ESC)
of the Commission for Conciliation, Mediation and Arbitration (CCMA),
demanding that air traffic regulation and control be scrapped as an
essential service.

Solidarity said that a survey conducted by the union among air traffic
controllers and other employees of the company Air Traffic Navigation
Services (ATNS) showed that 94% of participating air traffic controllers
and employees supported an application for the scrapping of their
essential service status. Solidarity served the application documents on
ATNS on Friday.

The first round of wage negotiations for 2010 started at ATNS on
Tuesday.

In terms of a notice published in the Government Gazette in June 1997, air
traffic regulation and control is declared as an essential service in terms of
Section 71 of the Labour Relations Act. As a result of this declaration, air
traffic controllers are not allowed to participate in strikes.

In terms of Section 212 of the Labour Relations Act, an essential service
was one whose disruption would threaten the lives, personal safety or
health of the population as a whole or a part of the population.

However, Solidarity maintained that a strike that led to the disruption of
air traffic controllers’ services would not pose a threat as contemplated in
the legislation because the industry possesses a highly developed
communications system.

“The system ensures efficient national and international communication
between the various airports, airlines and all role-players in the aviation
industry. If there were eventually to be a strike by ATNS employees in
South Africa, all flights scheduled to and from South Africa during that
period would have advance notice of at least 48 hours of the strike,” said
Solidarity spokesperson Jaco Kleynhans.

“The flights would, therefore, be cancelled or rescheduled in time, before
they take off. Consequently, no lives, safety or health would be put in
jeopardy. Although inconvenience and economic losses could result from a
strike, it is not mortal danger as referred to in the legislation,” Kleynhans
further explained.

“A strike could place pressure on air traffic in South Africa, but the current
system does not leave any room for these employees to strike. In the
event of failed wage negotiations, the only recourse currently available is
to refer the dispute to the CCMA for arbitration, but this route seldom
yields the desired result for the employees,” Kleynhans said.

“Strikes and the threat of strike action are constitutional rights and a legal
part of the power play in wage negotiations. Without it, employees are left
to the mercy of employers and the arbitration system.”

Documents lodged with the ESC would be considered, and the committee
would decide whether Solidarity may do a presentation regarding the
issue. Following the presentations by the parties involved, the committee
would make a decision regarding the status adjustment.

Solidarity represented the majority of employees at ATNS, which is the
only supplier of air traffic control and related services in South Africa.
ATNS was responsible for the air traffic control of 10% of the world’s air
space and controlled the air traffic at 19 South African airports, including
OR Tambo, Cape Town, and Durban International airports.

The Application was sent to the CCMA (Commission for Conciliation, Mediation & Arbitration) on 2 Nov '09.

We just heard today that the ESC (Essential Services Committee) has given a date of 2 Dec '09. This apparently gives them time to familiarize themselves with all the relevant information before the case can be heard by the parties involved.

What counts in the favour of Solidarity and it's members is the fact the the LRA (Labour Relations Act) of the 70's compel the CCMA/ESC to expedite the process: "must determine.. as soon as possible". So neither ATNS nor the CCMA/ESC can delay the process...

It is a waiting game for now... until 2 Dec '09.

mx1

14th Nov 2009, 05:18

So much for world cup bonus , Atns can't even say how much we supposed to be getting.
If its not on paper it does not count !!!

And explain to me how the guys in the desert "know" more than us

makeapullup

14th Nov 2009, 11:00

Hmmm i'm now thnking of flying to SA for the WC!
so i am now totally at ease and happy that there will be no problems with air traffic!!

NOT

Global-Travels - News - South Africa air traffic flow in 2010 will be smooth (http://www.global-travels.net/forums/vbnews.php?do=viewarticle&artid=177)

porra

15th Nov 2009, 12:19

I heard that the last couple to return to ATNS were only offered a 3 year (with no pension or medical) contract?

Is this an attempt at making controllers wanting to leave rethink?

P

leo20

16th Nov 2009, 05:39

Here is one for ATNS regarding salary negotiations.

Checked in news paper this morning a Senoir Personal Assistant for the Rural development and land reform (Goverment) Salary package R448521 PA. Requirements very much the same as a PATC or (ATCO3) and they say ATC ask for to much money. I wonder if this is an essential service and if they can strike or who's life hangs in the balance every day.

I am just fed up with ATNS nd the Govermunts bulls:mad:t :ugh:

Juggie1

20th Nov 2009, 06:06

At present ATNS is in a dispute with I think more than 10 South African ATC's about contract issues.We all know what was said on a dvd, written on info sheets and what was said on roadshows,but still legal action was taken.

I will be so :mad: scared to sign any piece of paper with an ATNS logo on it.You think you will return back home after the WC,there might be a surprise for you!!!!You might owe ATNS 1.2 million Euros or your great great grandchildren might still be ATNS slaves!!!

So all you out there be warned about signing a contract with ATNS!!!!

EltorroLoco

20th Nov 2009, 08:40

We had an instructors meeting yesterday for the Jo'burg approach pool and decided not to train any foreign part timers should they arrive because:

They pay issue has not been addressed fully and communicated.

We would love to have more people, but think if everyone pulls a little harder - it should be OK. Or rather it is going to have to be.

Starting someone fresh now would mean they only have less than 2 months experience, which is a little risky seeing it will be the busiest ever.

It's not about emotion, it's just the way it is.

leo20

20th Nov 2009, 11:45

At present ATNS is in a dispute with I think more than 10 South African ATC's about contract issues

If I am not mistaken 80% of those ATC's had no issues with ATNS they just left for a better option and now ATNS is taking off the gloves:ugh:

But not to worry they are starting a radio campaign (only black radio stations) to get new BEE ATC that will most propably replace us sooner than later. Well done Patrick hope Minister of Transport gives you a nice big package to wipe out all the whites, and they say there is no racism. Also very good practice of diversity in ATNS.:mad:

I am glad the JS guys are also standing together as did the CPT guys for not giving any OJT. Just looking at the basics ATNS brags about the 25 ATC coming to help us out,
1. Where are they?
2. How much time is left?
3. What qualifications do they have?:confused: seeing that most have failed the ATA assesments, now the new story is that they don't have to do assesment as CAA will aprove their European licence.

I think all OJTI's must refuse training:eek:

Does anybody have any feedback regarding the Essential service issue.

RadarMaggot

21st Nov 2009, 08:28

Does anybody have any feedback regarding the Essential service issue.

See my post above on 13th November 2009 14:33.

The date given by the ESC (2 Dec 09) is only a preliminary date and in Africa this can mean anything... :ugh:

Hopefully we'll hear something from the CCMA in the first week of Dec 09.

In the meantime, keep watching the email and notice boards; there will be a letter/communique from Solidarity soon which will open up a few "options"... :ok:

ZRH

23rd Nov 2009, 11:48

Hey Juggie1

"So all you out there be warned about signing a contract with ATNS!!!!"

I really enjoyed your thread, had a good laugh. It's just a big pity that it's all true and you were spot on.

Regards:ok:

Late 1976

23rd Nov 2009, 16:58

ATNS, die f@kkers!!!!

Apparently no foreigners will be coming over, because there is not enough time to train them anyway. So far, nothing has been done about work Visas etc.

ATNS has also admitted the the Euro salary advertised was a mistake on their part.

It's true that the foreign ATC licenses would have been accepted without any assessments being done. This seems to have only been the case for the Swedish ATC's and not anyone from other African countries.

Porra:
The last 2 ATC's that have returned, have indeed only been offered a 3 year contract, however, ATNS have been kind enough to supply them with medical (isn't that just so nice of them?). They are left without pension though. This is apparently a new policy that ATNS will be applying to any ATC that might return to the wonderful employ of ATNS (yeah right).

ATNS truly has the RETENTION of their staff at heart!!!!!!

Regards,

Senior_ATCO

23rd Nov 2009, 23:02

this is ridiculous and irresponsible!!!
at the CANSO AGM 2009 the global ANSP community decided to launch a call for supporting South Africa during Football World Cup 2010.
this is an outstanding initiative and action of solidarity of the global ATM community ... and you guys you think all OJTIs should refuse training.
this is a smash into all the ATCOs faces accepting temporarely shortage of staff in their own european ANSP for supporting ATNS and South Africa. Shame on you !!!

ferris

24th Nov 2009, 05:12

accepting temporarely shortage of staff in their own european ANSP for supporting ATNS and South Africa. Bwahahaha! That's a good one! ANSPs acting out of the kindness of their hearts!!
You management stooges are all the same- you think everyone else are idiots!

Obviously the staff at ATNS- you know the ones, the ones who are there year in year out fighting constantly for decent conditions- finally get some leverage, and you have the gall to attack them because they they won't train people (people on better terms and conditions) coming (for a few months) to piss on that leverage! Whilst CANSO is a sort of union of ANSPs, the idea that they are acting in the interests of South Africa is laughable.

You are the one who should be ashamed! Allow industrial matters to run their course, without foreign intervention. If ATNS wanted to, they could've had all the controllers they needed long ago. As with many controllers around the world, often the only recourse is to LEAVE.

RadarMaggot

24th Nov 2009, 06:29

Senior Atco

I noticed that this is your first post on PPRuNe, so I can only hope that you have read this whole thread before posting your comment...

I also have to assume (yes, I know...) that you only have bits and pieces of info about the inner workings of ATNS and the politics involved.

Here are a few 'highlights':

- Since the company was founded in the early 90's, it has never had the 106% staffing levels that is ideal - never came close.

- People still left the company to go and work in other countries (some just left and persued other options in SA) and the company did not see this as a problem. That's the impression we got...

- The Retention Contracts we're supposed to keep everyone here as it was hailed as the best option... now, the ATC's that did leave with a contract are being sued for more that was paid to them (including Tax). If you want more details, read this thread from the start...

- During our salary negotiation this year, the company's negotiator went on vacation, with no-one else to in their stead... Brilliant!! :D

- The company argued major losses in revenue because of the world economic 'crisis', so the Arbitrator decded in the company's favor - 8.5%. Yeah right, your payslip said 6.5% (2% was for OJTI increase). Oh, almost forgot, the 6.5% was not on your total income, so it went down to about 4.x%. And to crown it al, the 2009 Year report show a R50mil profit...

- The company begged the union to accept an increase in Cape Town OJTI from Jan 2010 (the rest of the coutry have to wait until 1 April 2010) after a 'mishap'... I cannot give furter details.

- For next year's increase, the company is still claiming less income, but the newspapers and outlook for 2010 is being sketched as much more rosy.

These are just the highlights, so hopefully you'll have a bit more restrain in your comments for your next post. If the company (and the worlds' ANSP showed this kind heartedness) last year, it might have been a whole different story!

Most of the OJTI's have no problem in training people from SA who will stay here, but to train foreigners (on a paysheet salary the same as ours as promised by ATNS, but the cost to company to get them here is rediculous!) who will leave just after SWC 2010 - think again. The ATC's have bailed the company out of enough trouble in the past and this time, they are starting to stand together... :ok:

I'm sure most of us are gratefull for ATNS for providing us with a job that we like to do, but we cannot accept the way we are being treated any more.

makeapullup

24th Nov 2009, 14:43

Senior ATC you are a horses a...:mad:

Senior_ATCO

24th Nov 2009, 18:47

RadarMaggot .. I do respect and understand your response. Nevertheless I know what I am talking about. Trust me that the only thought in mind of the global atm community is to help ATNS.
The comments of the other 2 atc fellows are respectless, insulting and just confirm the attitude of union leaders against management.
If you guys are not happy in ATNS you have the choice to leave, it is as easy as that!

CuitoCuanavale

24th Nov 2009, 19:45

And that, Senior ATCO, is your quintessential, yet self effacing, Vidkun Quisling moment.

Haul out your favourite Norman Mailor, ease yourself into the shade -force that glorious cocktail of a shooter with your most treasured downers into your de-sensitized repertoire you call living and bid the cruel, near sandanista-like world a blurred good-bye until next time....be that next time what it may. Your warm fuzzy abyss of abscinth, colourful capsules and Mailor will serve as your ICU ward.........be well.......

or

You could actually read several papers and magazines that relate to ANSP's and associated unions etc, etc - and how they actually function in relation to the already decades old global maraketability of professionals in aviation.......and from that/once it is done........carefully review your venacular prior to use................especially when you venture into the world of print. Step-by-step........bigger things will follow........

ferris

24th Nov 2009, 20:35

atc fellows are respectless, insulting and just confirm the attitude of union leaders against management. You got that right.
Trust me that the only thought in mind of the global atm community is to help ATNS. What makes you think that the interests of the management of ATNS (which is what you should've said) are aligned with the interests of the country?
If you guys are not happy in ATNS you have the choice to leave, it is as easy as that! The mantra of the ineffectual manager!! It is NOT as easy as that- as you well know. Sometimes, people would like to stay and improve the company- although that is often seen as just an adversarial attitude.

Late 1976

25th Nov 2009, 05:36

Senior ATCO you have no idea, do you?

I'm not sure whether ferris has worked in SA (or is working here currently), but I have to agree with his "insult". He also has a good grasp of management, especially ATNS management.

While you and many so called helpful ANSP's are there to support ATNS in their hour of need, the management team are only there to help themselves!!

ATNS has known about SWC 2010 since 2006, and what have they done? they've embarked on a pointless retention strategy, which has, or will blow up in a very spectacular fashion.

Regarding ATC's, they've done fairly little. About 8 months ago, they approached Swiss ATC's, without the knowledge of the Union or Proffessional Association. That didn't go down that well. There most recent endeavour was to recruit Swedes. The salary they stated in the ad was "wrong".

Why should I train you, if you will be earning twice my cost-to-company while you will be here (that's without relocation)? After your "African adventure", do you know what we ATNS'ers will be left with? I'll tell you, a company full of promises about a big fat bonus, which will never happen.

Let me give you a rundown of 2 of our senior managers; Firstly there is the Executive Manager: Service Delivery (quite important, don't you think?). This is a person that has no idea of ATC, or even aviation. She used to work at a local airline which operates Dash 8-C's. Her contribution to saving money was that there should only be one pilot in the cockpit, because why do they need two crew in the cockpit anyway. She does even write her own e-mails pertaining to Service Delivery, because she has no clue as to what to write!!!

Secondly, there is the Senior Manager: Operations. He was never a good ATC to start with, so management was his next step.WHAT A BULLSH!TTER. He has no idea of ATC. He can never give a striaght answer. There is never a simple "yes" "no" with him. His latest brain-fart is that we should not have stadby duties at all, because get this, if the standby is not activated, that means there is a ATC sitting at home doing nothing!!:ugh:Acooring to him we should then just combine sectors and the TFC should stay on the ground.

Fact is ATNS manages like an Ostrich. When the sh!t hits the fan, the hide there heads in a hole (often there own assholes) and hope for the best.

About youor comment that we have a choice to leave if we're not happy; yes the ooption is there, and is being persued by many at this time, and a whole lot more in about a year or so. The downside to this is that you leave everything you know behind, which is not entirely a bad thing. If things don't work out for you though, and you return to the employ of ATNS, your new THREE YEAR contract will state that you have no pension benefit, and also that ATNS can give you a month notice to terminate your employment, without having to give a reason for said termination.

All I can say is: "nice ATNS. Best company to work for, my lilly white :mad:!!!"

Yippee

25th Nov 2009, 10:10

There is sometimes a gap in management´s skills and the real world requirements. Even with ANSP:s. ;) Some of the reasons are described excellently here: Leading without authority (http://www.gonetworkstl.com/pdf/presentations/09-06-09%20-%20Leading%20Without%20Authority%20-%20Go%20Network.pdf)

One point is that in order to climb on the ladder you have to be an opportunist when "beginning the climb". Problem is that many of the managers stay opportunists when they should evolve. Evolve towards more effective leadership traits.
Opportunist:

Focus on personal will
Externalize blame
Reject feedback
Use retaliation as a tool to lead

Sound familiar anyone?

Some are even experts:

Overconfidence
Effectively uses logic/hard data
Contempt for those who do not work hard
"my way or the highway" attitude

Some leaders are combinations of those. Anybody you might know perhaps?

The point is that leaders are not born. They are made.

Which ANSP does have an active "leadership training program" or "leadership culture"? Historically ANSP:s are administrative organizations. I think this is the big reason that there is not even an understanding of a need of personal growth for leaders. In many cases.

I am so happy and grateful that there are positive exceptions to this kind of thinking.

CuitoCuanavale

25th Nov 2009, 10:50

"Secondly, there is the Senior Manager: Operations. He was never a good ATC to start with, so management was his next step.WHAT A BULLSH!TTER. He has no idea of ATC."

Sweeeet Daaaawgiee!!.....love to see his face if ever he did read this, moermeter would simply implode...

Just running through this Satco chappie's word placement and general print english...have to say it smacks of a wind-up at best, at worst some kid new into management (ATNS that is, dont let the luxemborg origin misdirect you) who has embraced company principles/value's etc, etc.

I have been through one retention package (honeymoon package that soon lost its veneer) and have witnessed from afar, the complete failure of sucessive ones. Therefore to finally be reading that there is the slightest possibility that the essential services tag might be lifted, thus unshackling SA ATCO's to have a more effective bargaining position at either increment time or when deemed necessary is way over due. I sincerely hope it all works out for the SA ATCO's.

To Satco, whoever you are, I know the paradigm's that exist amongst the controllers there and the mere fact that they nurture their own career path and take great pride in the self discipline they take with them on duty, in no way translates to a conceited, near xenophobic stance that you imply. The confines and other vicissitudes that they operate within and under on a day-to-day basis on its own ensures that the SWC'10 is now something more than just a challenge to field operatives.

To label their current intentions and course of action as 'irresponsible' is evidence of either complete ignorance on your part or as stated earlier, a simple little wind-up for your own gratification.

thealps

26th Nov 2009, 11:58

Ok, ok.....
First of all, I'm not quite sure everyone should be so hard on Senior ATC. I really think what he says is true. I started this thread because I thought I would get a chance to come and work in S.A, not just over the WC, but for a couple of years. That all changed, as we all know, and it was at a later stage that the idea of hiring ATCO:s for just the WC came up. (at least that's what I've come to think)

I totally agree with the statement that the global community would like to help our South African colleagues in bringing it all together during the WC. At the same time I, of course, understand the frustration of you guys already working there that have been trying for years to get more appreciation for the work you're doing. BUT- you can't treat the guys, that might be coming (looks like no-one now, though) as they were some kind of management just coming to squeeze out as much money as possible! I can assure you that anyone coming to S.A with any kind of contract would do so with good intentions.
This whole I-hate-the-management-whoever-they-are is really starting to get a bit tiring. I've seen my fair share of bad management as well, but I've also learned another lesson when it comes to management during my 11 years as an atco - people never like the management, even when they're doing a good job!!!! (which happens from time to time and no- I'm not management) ;-)
It's probably the same in most businesses but I have the feeling that in ATC we really have a tendency of complaining too much. Maybe the situation in S.A calls for it, but it's more or less the same at all the places I know.

I must admit I didn't know how bad the situation was in S.A until some of you enlightened me on this forum. If only half of it is true, it's really bad. People leaving all the time, management making terrible and arrogant decisions, and the general working conditions with bad pay and a lot of over-time. I don't think any of the formerly interested foreign ATCO:s knew about this. Therefore- don't blame them!

Let me ask you this – why hasn't the union come together sooner to try to reach better conditions and solve the whole problem, for the W.C and afterwards? As it seems, these problems have existed for a very long time and all people have been doing is complaining about it. There is, of course, a huge chance of making a clear statement during the W.C, but I personally don't think that'll happen. I'm quite certain that you guys will give it all you've got and solve everything as it comes. Then what? What happens afterwards? I would say- nothing! Unless you manage to get everyone together and try to change things, everything will continue as before.
Therefore my opinion is that you should be happy for every foreign ATCO being willing to come and help you out, should the situation allow for it. Yes, they might make more money than you do, which of course is far from fair, but hey – where in the world would anyone move to a foreign country (for a longer or shorter amount of time) without getting anything back??? Be it that it's not fair – that's the way it works. It has nothing to do with that a certain individual wants more than everyone else, when the working conditions are as bad as they seem to be in S.A – every help you could expect to get from anyone would cost.

You now say you don't want any help and would refuse to train any foreign ATCO:s coming. Has that decision emerged during the last couple of months? You have accepted help before, even though it hasn't particularly made your situation better in general up until now.
What are the reasons for that decision? You would be making a point, for sure, but what are the obvious advantages? Pissing off the management? I thinks it's the wrong way to go. If, or when, anyone would come it's already too late to do anything about it. Then you'll just punish an innocent individual. I'm sure your management won't care that much. They'll just let you guys work a bit harder and more to solve the problem you created yourselves.

If, however, you plan to really stand together to try to change your situation for the future, not just for the W.C, then I guess your method could work but it requires that EVERYONE is in on it, which I personally think will be difficult.

ferris

26th Nov 2009, 12:47

So what are you saying? The guys there should do nothing and just continue on under their inept leadership, bowing their heads and just accepting their lot? A rare opportunity has presented itself to actually get some leverage in their desire to improve their conditions. I thought it would be natural to expect some ill-will towards people from elsewhere who have NO CARE WHATSOEVER about the impact their arrival will have on that position. They would merely be coming for a short-term change of scenery, without taking any of the pain that will endure on those expected to train them. Let them come on "local conditions" if this is all so altruistic! This whole I-hate-the-management-whoever-they-are is really starting to get a bit tiring. Probably notable in this industry due to the crystallisation effect of the lack of portability of skills. There is only usually one ANSP in every country, so the ability to up and 'leave if you dont like it' is drastically reduced. The effect is two-fold; bad management perpetuates because there is no competition/change driver, and ill-will festers because employees feel trapped. Very very few actually leave, regardless of how unhappy they are.
I don't think any of the formerly interested foreign ATCO:s knew about this. Therefore- don't blame them! Ignorance as an excuse? Interesting idea.....

Late 1976

26th Nov 2009, 13:36

CuitoCuanavale,

I must admit, I am just a little bit wound-up at what we as ATC's have to put up with. Would you lke to work under the mentioned management.

Alps,

The only thing that would've happened is that you would not have gotten dual. I cannot speak for the Cape Town people, but you would've been welcomed in Jo'burg. As a matter of fact, you would've been invited into our homes, we would've shown you where to go, and where not to go(for your own safety). We would've all enjoyed many drinks together!!!

Please don't think that any of us have xenophobic attitudes, because that is certainly not the case. I reckon the thinking was that with foreign ATC's here, earning bigger salaries that us, not getting any dual, would've forced ATNS to acknowledge us and our contribution, thereby giving us some leverage when you leave.

ATNS unfortunately often does their won thing, without consulting the Union. They seem to be a law unto themselves.

ferris,
Thanks for all your support.

thealps

26th Nov 2009, 14:02

Ignorance as an excuse? Interesting idea.....
Ferris, It has nothing to do with ignorance. Misinformation or lack of information at the most. You really seem to think that everyone is after you and out to destroy whatever you're trying to accomplish.
How many of the persons concerned (foreign atc's who have been interested in coming to S.A), do you think, read this forum? Not that many. Where else could you get information about the present state of ATNS if you don't know anyone working there personally? Beats me. Call that ignorance if you want - it sounds ridiculous to me to imply such a thing.

I do, however, wish you guys all the best for the W.C and afterwards and, of course, I hope you eventually get what you want and deserve. :ok:
Maybe I'll see you in the future.

ferris

26th Nov 2009, 16:26

It has nothing to do with ignorance It is the very definition of ignorance!!
Where else could you get information about the present state of ATNS if you don't know anyone working there personally? Beats me. Well, that speaks volumes about the quality of the 'temporary workforce', then. Have you heard of google? The telephone? I don't know, but if I was going to move somewhere to work, I might want to find out as much as I could first? How could you move to a different country to work (even if it is only for a temporary jolly) without doing basic research (like speaking to the people on the ground already)? The word ignorant just screams out!

You definitely are management material- "it's not ignorance, it's 'lack of information'"!! Gold :D

thealps

26th Nov 2009, 17:08

Ferris,

I truly am glad I never will have to work with you. :eek:
Talk about ignorance...

To the rest of you - keep your heads up and good luck to you!

Juggie1

26th Nov 2009, 17:30

Deleted items get send to the recycle bin.Sometimes the recycle bin needs to be emtied,it can slow the system down!
There are those files that can be deleted and no one will notice. Files that no one knows how to delete and then there are virusses etc:}

To rectify the problem we need to appoint an external auditing company to find the problem at 2 million rand.:D This we have to do once a year with a different company.Then all problems get blamed on staff shortage and we don't have to delete,emty or fix anything.:ugh: and we wait patiently for the next survey at 2 million rand!( Sounds familiar )

I do believe that before SWC 2010 a few management positions might become vacant due targets/deadlines not made.If I am not mistaken 2 already bailed out.:{(latest positions advertised on noticeboard)I think more will be exposed and jump the ship in due future.My prediction, 6 in total-watch this space!!
I mean rumours travel very fast about applications elsewhere.Where there is smoke there is fire!!!:=
Place your bets

CuitoCuanavale

26th Nov 2009, 19:25

The same theme seems to be repeated in pretty much all postings on this thread that being the existence of a huge question mark over management, in general, but primarily executive as that is normally where the lead is taken from. Not altogether watershed in any corporate environment, but since holistically the technical service delivery is (unless of course that has altered, which would be somewhat revealing) the core business of ATNS, it is cause for grave concern. That and the fact that the same issues resurface year after year in a virtual “Dog Day Afternoon” scenario.

In any event, most every controller that has at some stage worked in South Africa (be it DCA era or ATNS era or both), has great empathy for what is transpiring, especially as the shadow of SWC ’10 looms larger. It is also encouraging to note the positive support and grasp of events that controllers who seem never to have worked in SA, have on what current controllers there are enduring.

Late 1976 I am somewhat surprised at your swipe at me as if anything, I was illustrating resolute support for all controllers there and in no way intimated to the contrary. I think you need to re-visit my post….carefully.

vector240forbogey

26th Nov 2009, 20:39

I have empathy with all that complain about ATNS.It can be so easy for the top brass to fix the problems in the company but incompetence seems to be the norm in SA companies these days. Here is something a bit different.

I took a look at the new airport in Durban this week. My impressions is: WHO THE HELL DISIGNED THE AIRPORT:eek:. Not someone that knows anything about ATC. Instead of designing a world class airport they cocked it up totally.

Traffic will flow better at the current airport than at the brand new one and they want to TRY and open it a month before the SWC.

What a letdown.:{

Late 1976

27th Nov 2009, 05:36

CuitoCuanavale,

I did not intend to take a swipe at you at all! So, I apologise. I merely stated that I am wound-up (which I am indeed), and also wanted to know whether you would be willing to work under the current management regime.

We are truly thankfull for all the support we receive, even if it's the sympathy we receive from other ATC's!

CuitoCuanavale

27th Nov 2009, 07:53

Oh dear....................................fragility........... .......................!?!

None-the-less, major sporting events aside, my experience there and knowledge of the level of discipline SA ATCO's as operatives embody, will ensure that whatever evolves, be it a bungled utilization of Internationals or face-the-storm alone, ultimately post event I am certain once again many accolades for dedication and performance will be forth-coming. The internal remuneration impasse, well I would imagine hinges quite delicately on the essential services tag being lifted or not..........

A bonus during WC '10 as a country would be to have Bafana bafana do well, what their chances are...I have no real idea (not a soccer/football officionado I am more of a amabokkebokke person), but both events will be followed closely.

All the best Guy's - ciao, ciao.

mtnova

28th Nov 2009, 11:09

Big hello to my ex co-workers. (used to work for ATNS area north and south 2003-2005).

Well guys, at least you have to admit that ATNS is very resiliant to change. NOTHING has changed since i've left.

Great memories though, miss that aftershifts at the pub's around :ok:

Sorry, i do not intend to hijack the thread, i just want to give my full support to all ATC's overthere, whatever they decide should be their course of action.

Biggest simpathy goes of course to the area north and south -Kupus (or maybe they have changed their name in the meanwhile?)

Cheers, and keep them separated.

D.

boomslang

30th Nov 2009, 19:12

Don't worry guys and gals the 10 teachers (yes you read right teachers!!) for the ATA that ATNS has managed to recruit with the help of New Zealand will address all our problems. Rumour is they will be going to NZ for 4 months to do tower courses then come back and pass the SA assessments before experiencing actual controlling for a year or two and finally train the new ATC's at the ATA.

Funny thing is that when SD tried to send experienced tower ATC's to the UK to do the radar course on Eurocat it was turned down by the Execs as being too expensive. Other reasons included lack of consultation with the ATA Exec etc etc. Would have cut the validation time short by at least a month as the system interaction is done whilst training. How much will this teacher exercise cost ATNS? I also seem to recall another such stunt a few years ago with not one of the intended ATA instructors ever making it to the ATA.

makeapullup

30th Nov 2009, 19:15

Finally someone talking numbers...

SA's World Cup challenges

November 30 2009

Reuters have compiled a list of challenges SA faces as we prepare to host the 2010 World Cup. They are listed below.

But there are many things SA can offer. Post in the comments section just what you think those are.

The World Cup draw on Friday starts the final countdown to the globe's most watched event but South Africa must still overcome crucial challenges if it is to win the huge kudos of hosting a successful tournament.

Unlike the hosts of several Olympics and World Cups in the past, South Africa is well on schedule to complete the 10 stadiums, five of them impressive new arenas. They are all expected to be ready by the end of this year, six months before the tournament starts.

Other challenges remain, however:

SECURITY

South Africa is one of the most dangerous countries outside a war zone, with more than 18,000 murders a year and one of the world's highest rates of rape, causing deep concern among both officials and fans about the risks of coming to this country. The rate of 50 murders a day is slightly more than the United States which has six times the population.

World Cup chief Danny Jordaan and police officials say, however, that South Africa has successfully organised many international sporting and other events and welcomes 9.5 million tourists a year. They say protecting fans, players and officials is a much more finite and manageable task than combating random common crime. More than 50,000 officers, more than a quarter of the force, will provide security, backed by new hardware including pilotless drones and helicopters.

South African police have been trained by French gendarmes in techniques to control soccer hooligans and have prepared for terrorism - considered a low risk here because of the country's non-aligned credentials. However, the presence of the United States and England, among other nations, could be a target, police say.

TRANSPORT

Soccer's ruling body, Fifa, raised concerns after the Confederations Cup last June about the key issues of transport and accommodation capacity for the World Cup.

South Africa lacks the extensive and efficient rail network that made travel easy at the last World Cup in Germany. But the population has stoically accepted huge traffic disruption to build a network of new roads and the Gautrain, a high-speed rail link around Johannesburg and Pretoria.

A modern new bus service is also being built to provide transport for township dwellers left stranded under apartheid, who were obliged to rely on dangerous and sometimes violent minibus operators. World Cup fans are expected to use the mass transit service to reach stadiums.

Jordaan says 200 additional planes and a thousand new buses will be mobilised for the World Cup, but final planning cannot begin until the draw reveals where the big teams and their fans will be. Fifa has established a complex plan to bus and fly fans from big accommodation centres to small venues such as Polokwane on match days.

ACCOMMODATION

Some 450,000 foreign fans are expected for the World Cup and any thoughts of camping out in most venues would be a mistake. Much of the World Cup, the first to be held in winter since Argentina in 1978, will be played at altitude in South Africa's highveldt, where evening temperatures could be bitter.

There is a cumulative shortfall of around 46,000 rooms so far but Jordaan says this counts only graded hotel accommodation. The shortage can be met by using smaller hotels, guest houses, university and school hostels, he says. The rich visitor can even enjoy beaches in Mauritius and fly in for a match, under the Fifa plan, but that would involve a round trip of around 17 hours.

Many South Africans are hoping to move out of their homes and let rooms at high prices to foreign visitors.

ECONOMY

World Cup construction has fuelled a building boom that has insulated South Africa, the continent's biggest economy, from some of the worst effects of the global economic crisis. But stadium building was dogged by strikes and many black South Africans are angry about lack of infrastructure 15 years after the end of apartheid.

There have also been concerns about power supply to meet additional need during the World Cup. Rising electricity demand in an expanding economy and lack of investment in generation capacity almost caused the national grid to collapse early last year, when there were weeks of rolling power cuts. But both analysts and the state power utility Eskom say they have capacity to avoid blackouts during the tournament. As backup, all World Cup stadiums have their own generators under Fifa requirements. - Reuters

Wow, good luck guys.

Late 1976

1st Dec 2009, 13:51

Stuart Ratcliffe was qouted in the World Airnews sometime during 2006 rearding people that will be travelling to SA, as well as additional ACFT (B737) numbers needed to handle the extra persons.

He said that 300 000 people would visit SA, and a few months later it was ammended to 400 000. This despite the fact that 3 million people attended the soccer spectacle in Gemany.

The amount of extra flight would total in the region of 196 for Gauteng, 80 odd for KZN, and 60 for the Cape region. These would be extra flights per day.

Now it's rumoured that Mr. Ratcliffe will be leaving these sunny shores, take his toll, and go and work in that States, all before the SWC!

I wonder how ATNS's Excell spreadsheet is coming along to accomodate all theses extra flights? I'm sure we are not to worry, because Mr. Dibate (aka Hein Reid) will be re-working the stats anyway!!

Well then, God Bless us all!!!!

Juggie1

1st Dec 2009, 15:27

UHHHH ok Late 1976 ,you heard the rumour as well!! Where there is smoke there is fire......

So com'on place a bet.From poolmanagers upwards-how many resignations before March 2010????

I stand with my six - 2 down already!
:ok:

leo20

1st Dec 2009, 16:18

springbok702

3rd Dec 2009, 07:05

Air traffic service to employ foreigners in 2010

Trade union Solidarity has called on the Air Traffic and Navigation Service (ATNS) to address staff shortages by reviewing air traffic controllers salaries and working conditions.

ATNS said it would employ foreign controllers to help cope with the tourist rush during next year’s FIFA World Cup, sparking a backlash from the local sector.

It is defending the move by saying the foreigners are being called in to ensure safe air travel, but Solidarity believes it is scrambling to fill gaps caused by years of poor employment ethics.

The service’s Anna Sanfillipo said it it needed 20 percent more staff to cope with the influx of tourists next year.

"This is largely due to the requirement for 24-hour operations at airports where normally only 12-hour operations are provided," said Sanfillipo.

However, Solidarity’s Jaco Kleynhans said ATNS would have the staff it needed for 2010 if it improved salaries and working conditions.

Talks between the union and ATNS, aimed at improving working conditions for local air traffic controllers, are continuing but this is not expected to solve the staff shortage in time for the 2010 tourist rush.

Late 1976

3rd Dec 2009, 17:31

In my opinion, it's too little, too late. This by both ATNS and Solidarity!

Solidarity has for too long left many ATC's in the lurch.

Take for instance the current situation with the poor ATC's in Upington. Where was Solidarity when the buggers (ATC's) were advised of their new situation by ATNS. As I understand, Solidatity only came to the party when someone at JS pointed the situation out to them.

Now I know what you're saying: "Why did the ATC's at Upington not make Solidairity aware of their situation when it occured?" The perception among many "outstation" ATC's is that Solidarity doesn't care about anyone outside of Jo'burg. Whether this is true or not, I cannot say.

I personally think that Solidarity, their representative, or both are completely and utterly ineffectual. It's like having ovaries when you're a guy!!

Juggie1

3rd Dec 2009, 17:44

Late 1976 -I believe you were right. Apparently we had a resignation!
So 3 bottles standing on the wall ...
I wonder maybe I should up my bet:confused:

Late 1976

3rd Dec 2009, 18:43

Juggie1,

Who has resigned, and who are the first two to resign?

Maybe you should up your bet. I guess it would be easier (as management) to resign, rather than face the music post 2010.

MaydayM

4th Dec 2009, 06:48

I have to wonder under what mandate they have gone into the negotiations. Considering that we were asked to vote. the results of the vote is known and we all know what increase bracket most members wanted.

Suddenly, we are informed through ATNS's Chief negotiater, (who is doing a very good job of keeping everyone informed of the latest developments), that Soladarity dropped their demand to 10.5%. Maybe I am not good at maths, but how do they go from 17% to 10.5%. While ATNS went from 8% to 10%. Then they put it to their members to decide:

1. Accept the company's offer of 10%

or

2. Go to arbitration for 10.5%

What a joke!!
Should they not have consulted with their members before dropping their demand to 10.5%?

I think that Soladarity is misleading their members.
Well that is just my opinion.

mx1

4th Dec 2009, 07:54

Either way every year we say the same thing about the union

Maybe time for a new one

BlueSkye

4th Dec 2009, 15:42

What happened with the Essential Services meeting? Was scheduled for 2 Dec I think. Hopefully good news.

Juggie1

5th Dec 2009, 18:53

Late 1976 - Stuart Ratcliff resigned.This was confirmed by Tjomma and Sangoma.

No 1 - Gwynneth from her position of recruitment/contracts and went to standards
No 2 - Cape Town Area Pool Manager
No 3 - Stuart Ratcliff
No 4 - ..............
No 5 - .............
No 6 - ..............

WATCH THIS SPACE!!!

No problem, we have a TOOL, a R54 million TOOL!!!

Jet Black4Life

6th Dec 2009, 12:14

"Good luck with the crime, u may not make it to work in ur car, it may be hijacked or u may b killed, management are monuments, everything is going up except ur salary that doesnt keep up, procedures that are pre historic which makes moving traffic a nightmare, The LOCAL ANSP appears not be in a very healthy financial state, people at HQ getting huge salaries to steal oxygen an staple pages,it really is a big joke, best bet is the land of sand, u get paid what u worth!"

@ ORANPO

How come you have't been killed, maimed or had your car jacked??? But others must be on the lookout for CRIME, have you ever found yourself inDowntown London or the Bronx??? guess not..... just keen on Thrashing your own country.:mad::mad:

Jet Black4Life

6th Dec 2009, 13:36

JUGGIE1

Who is this SANGOMA charecter and how does he know the rumours are true?? Is he good with the bones?

Jet Black4Life

6th Dec 2009, 14:06

Don't worry, we will get another request from some old ATC that sits at HO to do another spreadsheet exercise for their so called planning:ugh:

Another one I heard is that they appointed the new Pool Manager for PE as the current one is retiring, but they are still trying to extend his contract for the SWC http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/sleep.gif (time is running out)
The new one is obvoiusly BEE (allmost 4 years ATC experience) and he is still based in EL, they don't have a release ATC for him yet. So to avoid embarressment because they already had the interviews they appointed him as from OCT/NOV with his new paycheck but still sitting in EL (great planning ATNS):ugh:

Hey Leo20,

You seem to forget that the current Pool Managers had no experience as well when they got promoted, the didn't even have to apply for the positions. What do you have against change anyway? Look at the figures, there are more BLACKS in South Africa than there are WHITES, therefore you have to expect to see them working alongside you. WELCOME the new world, ain't life a :mad: (female Dog)

leo20

7th Dec 2009, 08:22

Hey, Jet Black4Life

You seem to forget that the current Pool Managers had no experience as well when they got promoted, the didn't even have to apply for the positions

I beg to differ, the current Pool managers all over SA have more than enough working experience they have at least more than 8 years ATC experience. Yes, they may not have all management eperience but most of them got the required training for that position. They did not have to apply then for the required position as they got is on merrit and they wanted the position.

I don't mind change as long as it doesn't get misused or rammed down your throat:yuk: I don't mind working along side them as there are already a few great Black ATCs out there:ok:, Just a pitty we can't get more of them as they can't even pass core content. But management will eventualy lower the standards like they do at the schools to make them pass the test.

The CEO wont even take back ex white ATSAs to come back to ATNS as he said they had a change and they are only recruiting black people. Looks to me like a new apartheid area has begun.:=
I also don't mind that there are more blacks than whites just as long they are competent to do the job and we don't end up doing it for them.

vector240forbogey

9th Dec 2009, 22:14

LEO20,
I couldnt have said it better myself.

That is the reason why we are sitting staffwise where we are. Recruitment is being done to fill a political need not a ATC need.:= I know of ATSA's that are too scared to become ATC's 'cause they didnt know what they are getting themselves into. Now they are just studying, through the company for free,to go do something else:ugh:

They could have made a difference next year if the recruitment was done properly but the people that do the recruitment dont have to give up their off days with their families to help out with the SWC. So why would they give a rats rectum.

makeapullup

10th Dec 2009, 20:32

dont have to give up their off days
Surely this is voluntary!!:eek:

boomslang

11th Dec 2009, 07:28

Makeapullup

That's the main concern that most have with the whole buy back of off days. I am pretty sure that if ATNS had come with a blank sheet and asked for names to volunteer working their off days all but a few would have agreed. Now they want to force it and that's one of the reasons why the ATC's are sticking to their guns.

Other reasons include the lack of visible planning and common sense. A-ll T-alk N-other S-urvey (yesterday another survey questionnaire to complete which apparently this time management will discuss with us once completed):ugh:

As for the admin staff not working I cannot see why they should also not be included. Major matches will be played after hours and if there is a grounding issue or a suspended account this cannot wait for normal office hours to be resolved. At negotiations we are time and time reminded that ATNS is not only an ATC company. Funny how when the chips are down it's only the ATC's that have to "go the extra mile to make SWC2010 a success!!".:*

leo20

11th Dec 2009, 11:55

Boomslang

Like you said ATCs must always come to the party and safe this :mad: pathetic company :mad:

They "Management" always seem to :mad: up and the ATC comes and safe the day and when it comes to salary negotiations they state we are greedy :ugh: and guess who gets the Bonus. Postman Pat and his black and white cat (god bless)

Before somebody says why don't you leave, don't worry I am busy getting out of here.

Another interesting one I just heard today is, that guy sitting at EL waiting for PE just bought himself a new GTI and he is only the Acting OIC of EL. When is he going to do some work for PE or is it a bit to much, the poor old PM from PE will do all the work for him and he gets the prize. But hey once again no BEE forced down your throught.

All The Non atcs/atsa Suck - referring to HO clowns

Senior_ATCO

12th Dec 2009, 15:49

ATNS Scoops Air Navigation Service Provider of the Year Award

10 Dec: ATNS has received the Award for ANSP of the Year at the AGM of the African Airlines Association

ATNS has received the Award for Air Navigation Service Provider of the Year in recognition of their outstanding, efficient and exemplary provision of airline navigational services to the African airline industry.

The Award was presented at the 41st Annual General Assembly of the African Airlines Association held in Maputo, Mozambique from the 22nd to the 24th of November 2009.

“I am delighted that our efforts and achievements have been publicly acknowledged and wish to thank each and every one of our employees for the role they have played in making this a possibility. An award of this nature once again validates and reaffirms the level of expertise we have at ATNS and sets us apart as leaders in our industry.” – Patrick Dlamini Chief Executive Officer.

RadarMaggot

13th Dec 2009, 08:28

The collective agreement between the union and ATNS states that all ATCO's will have a minimum of 8 days off in any 28 day cycle. :ok:

With the SWC and ATNS being short staffed, they are trying to make up for not enough ATCO's by buying back off days. ATNS is still "negotiating" with the union on the terms of the buy-back. If the employees stick to their guns and the majority votes no then ATNS will approach individuals to try and get back enough off days...

If this fails, the will get a court order where they can use the law to force employees to only have 6 days off in a 28 day cycle. This is possible in the event of an emergency(!!), but the SWC is NOT an emergency. :=
Unless ATNS sees it as an Emergency?:uhoh:

I have a copy of an email that was sent to HQ (BD in specific) in 2005 where the ATC wrote clearly and without being vague, that we don't have enough people and seeing that it takes approx 4 - 5 years (in our setup of training) to get an ATC in front of a radar screen (I think 2 - 3 years for TWR, might be mistaken!!), there should have been ample time to train.:ouch:

So if ATNS listened/read and acted accordingly, we should have had enough people to work the SWC by now. BUT, we all know where we are at this stage. Except the people at HQ...:zzz:

According to our CEO, we are very little understaffed, about 5 - 10 people if I recall correctly (according to a source at our last union meeting - I will get back to this meeting a bit later).

But what gets me is that if this is the case, why need off days to be taken away (forcibly if necessary) for the SWC? The only time that it got out in the press/radio is when one of our senior managers(/negotiator for off day buy-back) said on a (small) radio station (and not many people heard it!!) that they will :D get off days back from the employees.

What I want to know is why the union did not hang this on the big clock and issued a press release? ATNS is tiptoeing aound the issue that they want the off days back because off the short staffing issue!! And why does FIFA still think everything is still going smootly? Because the truth of the matter is being kept hush-hush by the company. And this will end badly next year... :ooh:

Has ATNS done a safety-case study about what the effect will be on the already overworked and stressed employees/ATCO's by taking back 25% of our off/resting time? The simple answer is NO!! Will ATNS be backing the ATCO's that will have incidents/accidents while they were on duty during the SWC - the answer again is NO!! They will make an example of the ATCO and use the excuse that he/she didn't follow procedures.

Well, we are already bending the rules very close to breaking point to accomodate all the present traffic - not to mention to accommodate all the requests from pilots - direct routings, no speed restriction, no delays "becuse we are low on fuel"... (at FAJS radar, everything is negotiable, and the ATCO is the pig if it's not given because the previous ATCO did cave under pressure..)

So to Senior ATCO:
Above is why ATNS gets the award - "Look how well ATNS is doing", meanwhile, behind the scenes the ATCO's are starting to bleed out of their eyes and ears!

To all the Joburg Solidarity (union) members not present at the last meeting:
Wondering why there is a "new" proposal out from ATNS/Solidarity regarding the OFF days. Well, because you were not at the meeting, that's why!

A grand total of 5 members were present (8 with Reps and shop stewards). There was a "typo" on both sets of letters (ATNS + Solidarity) about the terms of the buyback - overtime / hourly rate... And Solidarity got a "brain fart" to tell ATNS that it was wrong. There wasn't even a vote to decide if this should/shouldn't be done, and the union states that it was decided on the meeting - THERE WAS NO VOTE ON THIS! After all the screwing the ATCO's got from the company, we could have been beter off... And both "new" sets of letters didn't even apologise for the "error", just a "revised" option to vote on :ugh:

So I hope the majority of the people vote FOR the "new" proposal. Then we will propably hear again that the union is not looking after its members - well, you've got yourself to blame for that. You as members had a chance to make a difference (again) but decided not to...

Essential Service
As for Solidarity's excuse about al the decicions thay made (some without consulting the members or putting it to the vote) up to this point - we are waiting for the outcome of the Essential Service "battle".

Solidarity is banking everything on this outcome (but what if we lose??). As I'm personally involved in this issue, I can truly say that we have a strong case - but as expected - ATNS is playing the stalling game. AND Solidarity is just playing along!!! I think I hear laughing at HQ...:hmm:

The LRA (Labour Relations Act) that deals with the classification of Essentail Service or not, clearly :ok: makes the provision that process must be dealt with in an expeditious manner, but ATNS says the Commision must first investigate and report on the declassification of ATNS as an Essentail Service.

The original date given by the CCMA was 2 December 2009. It has come and gone and the CCMA said it's because they have difficulty in aligning the diaries of the senior people that will serve on the committee... And Solidarity will not put the LRA pressure on them - because we don't want them become angry that we are pushng the issue - nice going Solidarity - right into the hands of ATNS.;)

Oh, but Solidarity does phone and email them to get answers...:rolleyes: This is Africa - if you don't stop just before committing a crime, Africa time rulz :ugh:

Now, I do expect a bashing coming my way, but what the heck, I'm used to it by now.