RT questions about approach clearance and visual approach

[ramzez]

Two things I don't fully understand and need help with:

1) What does the phrase "Advise able to accept visual approach runway xx" mean?
- does it mean "tell me when you have the runway in sight and you are ready to commence a visual approach", or
- does it mean "are you able/allowed to accept a visual at some point? (considering company procedures, weather, day/night etc.)"

2) Why are there two types of approach clearances in Doc 4444 the only difference being the word "FOR"? I'm not a native english speaker so I don't understand whether there is a difference or not.
- 12.3.3.2 d) CLEARED (type of approach) APPROACH [RUNWAY (number)];
- 12.4.2.2 d) CLEARED FOR (type of approach) APPROACH RUNWAY (number);

[Scooby Don't]

1) In practical terms, if you are advising "able to accept visual approach", you are telling us that your company procedures allow it AND that you have the ground (not necessarily the runway) in sight AND can make a visual approach from your current position.

If your company procedures or weather minima do not allow a visual approach, advise us that you will not accept a visual approach.

2) No difference as far as I can tell, but I do not have Doc 4444 in front of me.

[Scott Diamond]

I believe the term "Advise if you wish to continue visually" is a controllers workaround of the CAP493 that doesn't allow them to ask/suggest a pilot to take a visual approach.

[niknak]

Scott is right, pilots can ask for a visual approach, atc can offer the option of a visual approach but atco's cannot tell a pilot "to advise if they can accept a visual approach" i.e coerce a pilot into accepting a visual approach.

[Neptune262]

Hello again Ramzez,

As your question is ICAO Doc 4444 based RTF, I shall answer from that perspective.

1.Visual Approach RTF: This directly applies to 6.5.3.1 in the fact that visual approaches can be initiated by the controller but requires concurrence of the flight crew. Hence the question format of the particular RTF stated. The rest of the requirements for visual approach still stand as per the whole section 6.5.3. Even if the pilot reports able, an explicit clearance for a visual approach is still required.

2. 12.3.3.2 - this is an Approach Procedural based RTF phrase such that an aircraft flies over, or will fly over an IAF and is cleared as per the instrument approach procedure as published.
12.4.2.2 - this is an Approach Radar based RTF phrase along the lines as "Vectoring for...." As you will see from 12.4.2.1 the use of the word "for" is common in a radar situation. This implies that an aircraft could be on a radar heading and is cleared for the Instrument Approach. Thus the aircraft can turn and follow the localiser for example when intercepted, therefore not requiring the aircraft to fly over an IAF.

Hope this all helps.

Cheers!!

[no slots]

I use " Report at anytime you wish to continue visually". Hints nicely without asking, tho sometimes they report visual as I'm turning them onto an 8 mile intercept which sort of defeats the object in my mind.:ugh:

[ramzez]

Thank you for your responses.

1. I now understand the phrase better. The problem was that I thought that there was an "IF" omitted from the phrase like:
"Advise (IF) able to accept visual approach runway xx"
but it seems more like a WHEN or IF AND WHEN is missing, like:
"Advise (WHEN or IF AND WHEN) able to accept visual approach runway xx"

If I remember correctly the phrase used to be something like "report when ready for visual approach". In my opinion it was clearer but I guess the current way is not so suggesting.

2. I understand that the phrase with a "FOR" should be used after vectoring and the other in other situations but still it seems a bit unnecessary to have two variations. Why not just keep it simple.

[Scott Diamond]

They cannot say "Advise when able to accept a visual approach" as that is some way of telling the crew they should continue visually, which ATCOs aren't supposed to do.

[Neptune262]

But ATCOs can initiate visual approaches as per ICAO, doc 4444 which is where the RTF quote comes from!

UK and ICAO do have their differences!!

:ok: