UK Airport ID cards and NATS

[razzye]

NATS and the union seem to be enthusiastic supporters of the national id card,What is your opinion

[eastern wiseguy]

I don't want one....I don't see how it will make any difference to "security" and I don't think NSL needs another expense to pass on to customers.

[ZOOKER]

"NATS and the union"
I'm sorry, who, exactly, does this include?

[Data Dad]

By "Union" do you mean Prospect?

If so, I think I am correct in saying that Prospect seconded and supported the BALPA motion to last years TUC denouncing the Governments plan to introduce ID cards for airside workers - hardly a sign of enthusiastic support for the cards.

However, given Prospects recent track record, a change of mind would NOT surprise me in the slightest :hmm:

DD

[jonny B good]

So just what makes you think that the unions support compulsory ID cards?

Or is this simply stirring it to get a reaction?

As you can see from the response by Data Dad, this is not the case. If you had actually taken the time to find out about Prospect Conference, maybe you wouldn't have put your foot in your mouth! ;)

[coolbeans]

Last I heard on this was the reply to the Epetition regarding A/S permits and the national ID card system. They are doing it any way regardless of the fact that it going to do b0110cks all to increase security.

Better not cost me anything

[anotherthing]

National ID Cards are a complete waste of time - a knee jerk reaction to the terrorist attacks in the UK, proposed by a Government who wanted to be seen to be doing something.

Attacks which were carried out by people who would have been eligible to carry the ID card :ugh:

As stated, Prospect has never supported the introduction - and I've never seen it stated that NATS did, though I could be mistaken.

[call100]

Better not cost me anything
Well it won't, initially, by the time you come to renew it the cost could be anything up to £300, If you fail to inform them of any changes then you will be fined £1000 per change not informed.
However, Surely the cost to you will be another nail in the coffin of your Civil Liberties.
Wake up and start understanding where this Government has taken the country. Only the East Germans before the wall fell had more state surveillance and intrusion.
The balls in the citizens court. Giving up without a fight is just cowardly. Sleepwalking further into this is not an option.

[coolbeans]

Surely the innocent have nothing to fear though :}

[SystemsAddict]

Sadly, I fear the whole 'nothing to hide, nothing to fear' meme may be more prevalent than you might think.

[SystemsAddict]

Prospect may be notionally against ID cards, but I've asked their representatives several times now, if I was to refuse to have an ID card, and I was fired as a result would they fight for me? Their response...? A resounding silence.

[call100]

Surely the innocent have nothing to fear though :}
Define Innocent........
This Government alone has introduced over 800 new criminal offences since taking office. Who would have thought that you could get a criminal record for overfilling your bin?

[jonny B good]

Prospect will campaign against the introduction of ID cards, and are doing so at the moment. Your question to a rep that if you are required by law to have an ID card, as it will come into force through a bill in parliament, would prospect defend me if I say no to having one is somewhat strange. Whilst Prospect, and I refer to the ATCO Branch, continue to campaign against the cards, it is difficult to defend somone for breaking the law if they are introduced. I would suggest you join the campaign against them by writing to your MP, MEP and supporting groups that are openly campaigning against them such as liberty etc. Like you, I am 100% against them, and see airports as another means to make something we are continuosly told is not compulsory suddenly compulsory to vast swathes of the workforce.
Good luck in the fight against ID cards ;)

[call100]

Even if it becomes Law if it comes to losing your job because of it, the case would be taken the High court and Europe.
But we are a long way from that Scenario at the moment.
Firstly, The Government have decided that the trials at MAN and LCy will not have any compulsion built in.
The cards will be issued to New starters and 'Volunteers'.
Secondly to make them compulsory will take another act of Parliment. by the time most of this happens the Labour party will be in opposition. All other parties have vowed to scrap the ID card and Database project.
We must ensure however, that pressure is maintained. Both from individuals and Trade Unions.....Word of caution here, Don't assume your National Officers are willing to do much. Any pressure must come from the Grassroot membership.
Whatever happens, don't roll over like the country has to the loss of Civil Liberties in the past. People are trying to overturn a lot of it and there are signs that it is begining to bear fruit.

[SystemsAddict]

I have been doing my own little bit to protest against ID cards by helping out with various No2ID campaign events. However it looks as though I won't need to be too concerned about this matter in terms of keeping my job, as NATS have decided they no longer have any need of my services and are shoving me gently out the door. For the record though, I will be continuing to agitate against the introduction of ID cards and the whole National Identity Register database.

A last quick rant before I am thrown out for no longer being a member of the Civil Aviation community.

For anyone reading this that thinks that "I have nothing to hide therefore I have nothing to fear"

From http://bastardoldholborn.*************/2009/02/nothing-to-hide-nothing-to-fear.html

Who summed it up better than I could ever have.

"I am sick of hearing this.

In every conversation about Ingsoc's latest e-voyeur database plans, someone always comes out with 'If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear' delivered in that smug tone that implies 'I'll bet you're afraid because you're hiding something'. The thought police must be so proud of that.

Yes, I am hiding something. A lot of things. So are you.

Okay then, here's the challenge. If you truly, absolutely believe that you have nothing to hide, if you really believe there is nothing to fear, post your name. Your address. Your NI number and passport and driver's licence numbers. Your bank details along with how much is in each account. Your children's names and ages and where they go to school. Your mother's maiden name and your account numbers for electricity and gas supplies. The name of your mortgage provider.

What's that? Invasion of privacy, you say? Oh, but you have nothing to hide and therefore nothing to fear. Your government has all those details and many more. Every official who feels like it can have a peek. So what's hidden, really? You have nothing to fear, do you?

Ah, but I hear some discontented rumblings. This information should not be handed out lightly. Someone might use it to hijack your life and steal all your money, or take out huge loans and leave you to pay them. All that is true. But you have nothing to fear, because you have nothing to hide, so post away.

Where did you go on holiday? Who went with you? When did you last use your credit card? What did you buy? Who did you phone? Who did you email? Which websites have you visited?

Don't want to answer? Why not? If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear and your government already has all this information anyway. On databases, linked and cross referenced and entrusted to private companies, not all of them UK-based.

It's different though, you think. Your information is safer with the government than with just any unknown blogger. You really believe that? Then name the officials, clerks, office juniors and janitors who have access to that information in your files. You no more know them than you know me, so what's the difference?

There is one difference, in fact.

I won't put your details on a disk or USB stick and leave them around for just anyone to find (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article5688347.ece). In that respect, you can trust me with your details more than you can trust your government.

Nothing to hide? Nothing you want to keep to yourself? Nothing?

It is a true statement in the end. He who has nothing to hide has nothing to fear, but he who has nothing to hide has nothing at all. We all have information we want kept private. We all have passwords and bank details and travel plans we don't want broadcast or left on a train. We all have something to hide."

Regards: S. A.

[HigherSights]

ID cards, biometrics, and massive, centralised databases - putting aside civil liberties for a moment, what about the questions:

How do they fail? How often will they fail? How will people respond when they fail?

Because they will. There is probably not one technology that hasn't, and there is no reason to think these are different They will fail due to hacking, carelessness (lost devices, poor password control, use of insecure machines), software errors, computer failures, fraud, forgery...the list goes on, resulting in lost, deleted, corrupt and stolen data. Pretty much any biometric measure or an ID card can be forged very quickly, and they are generally supposed to last 10 years. Finger print scanners have been bypassed with gelatine casts, iris and face scanners with photos.

Even worse, once these are introduced, security people become dependent on them/'complacent', so when they fail, they fail badly, making the whole system even less secure than it was before.

[The Many Tentacles]

Whatever, heard it all before

[call100]

Whatever, heard it all before
Concise, intelligent and really adding to the debate:rolleyes:....Bet you are fun at parties..:ugh:

[radar707]

ID Card Database breached:

Memo reveals multiple breaches of ID card database - ZDNet.co.uk (http://news.zdnet.co.uk/security/0,1000000189,39618460,00.htm)

Anyone that thinks these ID cards are a good idea needs their head examined

[razzye]

Directly from Prospect

"Whilst we are opposing the compulsory introduction of the ID cards-we are having to advise members to co-operate with their employer if required/instructed,it is a requirment"

I still see no opposition !!!:ugh:

[HigherSights]

If anyone tries to put scans of my iris or prints of my fingers in an ID card I will fight them off. Someone nicking my credit card number is one thing - I can get another. But I've only got one set of fingerprints and one set of irises to last me a lifetime. Any database containing this information would be an Aladin's Cave for hackers and organised criminals. Centralised databases are insecure by design.

The Government is dangerously out of line on the issue of ID cards and sadly I can see the UK sleepwalking into this one. They won't listen to even its own MoD information security specialists, or international expert on information security Bruce Schneier.

As a Brit overseas, I'll not be watching this from afar and will stay well clear if it is introduced.

[call100]

Directly from Prospect

"Whilst we are opposing the compulsory introduction of the ID cards-we are having to advise members to co-operate with their employer if required/instructed,it is a requirment"

I still see no opposition !!!:ugh:
There are none so blind as those who cannot see........
http://www.modernliberty.net (http://www.modernliberty.net/)
Don't rely on National Officers of the TU movement. The work is being done by many many grass roots members who are slowly but surely embarrassing The National Officers into action. Through working with other organisations such as NO2ID, joining in at conferences organised by the likes of 'The Convention on Modern Liberty'. Keep telling the Union hierarchy that you are against it and want them to do something. Refuse to accept any other answer from them.
Stop waiting around for someone else to do the work for you.
If Prospect are actually saying as you quote. Then they actually need people to remind them who they serve. Believe me though, it's not just a Prospect problem...

[eglnyt]

If Prospect are actually saying as you quote. Then they actually need people to remind them who they serve. Believe me though, it's not just a Prospect problem...

It doesn't matter who they serve or which properly constituted union it is they have no choice. They can campaign as much as they like using legal means until it becomes law. Once it is law and a requirement they can't advocate breaking the law as to do so would leave the union and its officers open to legal redress. They also have a duty of care to their members so although they might offer support if you chose to face up and refuse to have an id card they can't suggest such action or condone it because you might subsequently decide to sue them when you're out of work and the House of Lords and European Court turn out to be unsympathetic.

The only people who think this is a good idea are a handful of senior Civil Servants and Cabinet Ministers. Unfortunately they have the majority to push it through and by the time of the next Government they will have commited so much public money to the project that the next Government of whatever colour will have little choice but to carry on as they'll need the income from issuing the cards to pay the contarctors.

[call100]

It doesn't matter who they serve or which properly constituted union it is they have no choice. They can campaign as much as they like using legal means until it becomes law. Once it is law and a requirement they can't advocate breaking the law as to do so would leave the union and its officers open to legal redress. They also have a duty of care to their members so although they might offer support if you chose to face up and refuse to have an id card they can't suggest such action or condone it because you might subsequently decide to sue them when you're out of work and the House of Lords and European Court turn out to be unsympathetic.

The only people who think this is a good idea are a handful of senior Civil Servants and Cabinet Ministers. Unfortunately they have the majority to push it through and by the time of the next Government they will have commited so much public money to the project that the next Government of whatever colour will have little choice but to carry on as they'll need the income from issuing the cards to pay the contarctors.
At the moment it is not law to have an ID card. The Unions are not doing anything constructive because they are getting favours on other issues from the Government. There is a lot of Horse trading going on.
Besides, If they had the will they would carry on regardless of it being law or not. Sometimes we have to remind our TU's that they only exist because brave people resisted the law.
If this had been Tory legislation the dinosaurs at the top would have been on the streets by now.
As for the trials. The unions at MAN and LCY now have reason for a dispute with their employers. The employers have signed up voluntarily to the scheme. Therefore, the members there have be co-opted in by the employer against their wishes.
The Unions will come on board...Late....due to sheer pressure from the members.
Amazingly, the TUC are out and out against ID cards. The whole situation beggars belief.