Deconfliction Service

[Dumbledor]

CAP774 extract: 'A Deconfliction Service is a surveillance based ATS where, in addition to the provisions of a Basic Service, the controller provides specific surveillance derived traffic information and issues headings and/or levels aimed at achieving planned deconfliction minima against all observed aircraft in Class F/G airspace, or for positioning and/or sequencing. However, the avoidance of other traffic is ultimately the pilot responsibility.'

As we are all getting ready for the new Basic, Traffic, Deconfliction and Procedural services on 12.3.09 , I am concerned about the last sentence above.

When in IMC and using the Deconfliction Service, the pilot cannot see the conflicting traffic. The conflicting traffic may not be squarking so the TCAS would not help either. If you are issued headings and levels by a controller, apart from maintaining your situational awareness and terrain clearance, you put your trust in him/her. If the heading causes a conflict, how can that be the pilot's responsibility?

I also wonder how foreign pilots will be made aware of these changes in the UK, and will they understand them. For example when flying into Teesside (stuck in the past sorry!), Farnborough, Exeter etc, you leave CA by descent. Hopefully the DS will automatically be given instead of 'what service do you require outside CA?'. That will throw them.

I will miss the good old RAS.

D

[anotherthing]

...against all observed aircraft in Class F/G airspace...
ATC can only issue you with instructions to avoid conflicting traffic if it is showing on radar - there are many reasons why it might not, even though your aircraft may be painting loud and clear.

Today, under a RAS, the pilot is ultimately responsible for collision avoidance. (If I recall correctly, haven't given a RAS in several years)

Foreign pilots (and many UK pilots) do not understand todays services, never mind the new ones. Giving a pilot a DS just because he might not understand the services is not a reasonable course of action - DS is a contract between pilot and ATCO, under which the pilot must comply with cetain things.

If the pilot does not understand his responsibilities, is it really safe (or fair on the ATCO) to give them a DS as a matter of course?

These new services are just a poor rehash (with little change) of the old services. The same problems that caused the rehash will still be around in 10 or 15 years, then we might find yet another change... back to FIS/RIS/RAS perhaps?!!

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Are similar services are provided elsewhere - EU, US, Oz, etc., or are they unique to the UK?

On the odd occasions when I have heard a controller ask a foreign pilot what type of radar service he required the lengthy silence, followed by "roger" or "say again" suggests that few are familiar with the procedures.

[Dumbledor]

Thanks for that.

'Today, under a RAS, the pilot is ultimately responsible for collision avoidance.'

I suppose my original question could have been aimed at the rules for RAS as well.

Farnborough approach seem to give RAS to inbound a/c as a matter of course (if you are within coverage). This is probably as they will eventually vector you onto the ILS, and maybe because the 'what service do you require' question has caused confusion in the past. This goes for Teesside as well as far as I remember.

Primary returns popping up from below must be a nightmare for the controller, but the question of liability is an interesting one.

As an analogy, a tug driver (if I remember rightly) during pushback assumes liability for collision avoidance This is presumably because he can see behind and the pilots can't.

The limitations of radar, eg. primary returns from cars on the Hogs Back (A31) at FAB (I was shown them in there radar on a visit once), small returns from gliders. Could these be the reasons for the 'disclaimer'?

The new terminology is bound to cause confusion anyway and I bet the controllers are dreading it!

D

[OurSoul]

Outside CAS is an unknown environment. Nobody has to tell us they are there. We will endeavour to help you avoid any traffic. However,ultimately,its your choice to fly out there.So is it not your responsibility to avoid these things?

[Dumbledor]

'However,ultimately,its your choice to fly out there'

Sometimes there's a choice, but if not you want to get to Farnborough, Teesside, Exeter, Inverness etc. Even public transport flights including airlines have to fly 'outside CA' to get to these places.

[ImnotanERIC]

It would make life easer to blanket cover the uk in controlled airspace apart from mil areas. but then all the strange ones in their sh1tkickers who like to fly at each other outside controlled airspace would kick up a fuss i suppose

[anotherthing]

Dumbledor

Unfortunately although I know Farnborough would like some CAS (possibly by an extension of the LTMA) the GA community would be up in arms over any proposal.

I believe LF have to give you a RAS because they will, as you state, be vectoring you for the ILS.

As for the disclaimer, you've hit on two reasons... another problem seen nowadays is that small, composite aircraft do not paint as well on radar as other aircraft - again causing late or no sightings.

I personally think that compared to Germany and the like, the UK system of LARS is superior, but it does rely on all parties understanding the implications of the service offered and as LARS is optional, not all aircraft will be known to the ATCO.

The chances are (notwithstanding there is always the exception), if you are flying IMC, any aircraft in your immediate vicinity will be as well, and will therefore most likely be speakng to the appropriate unit.

The scenarin that is most dodgy is intermittent IMC, where you are popping in and out of cloud etc - you may well stumble across an aircraft manoeuvring within a clear pocket that has elected not to speak to ATC.

I think it is good that there is a 'disclaimer' as it will hopefully ensure that pilots do not overly rely on ATC i.e. pilots will not fly along fat dumb and happy thinking that a good lookout is not required... a small handful unfortunately do.

[Dumbledor]

You're right about the other traffic when in IMC. Perversely it is probably safer to fly IMC in ****e weather with most tiddlers on the ground, using RAS/DS. As you say, the other traffic in the vicinity will probably be also using the same service and are more likley to have Mode C, so they paint on the TCAS. Hazy Sunday afternoons are a more of a worry.

There are still a lot of tiddlers and gliders without transponders, so whatever the service you use, both pairs of eyes should be looking out.

As HD said, foreigners don't understand the 'what service do you require' question. If they were told 'this is a RAS or DS' this surely wouldn't throw them. Isn't this the safest option for them?

[letMfly]

CAP413 states that "Where it is not self-evident pilots will normally be informed by the controller when they are under radar control, advisory or information service." I wonder if that will still apply under the new ATSOCAS with DS, TS and BS? It would certainly make life easier for controllers.

[ATCO Fred]

On the odd occasions when I have heard a controller ask a foreign pilot what type of radar service he required the lengthy silence, followed by "roger" or "say again" suggests that few are familiar with the procedures.

And this has been my own personal anathema for quite some time. How exactly do you establish the binding contract (identified type of service X - pilot reads back type of service X) when the other party to the contract is NOT aware of the conditions they must undertake within the contract. Was the same under ATSOCA and will be the same after 12.03.

[Charlie23]

In reply to the question "what type of service do you require?", in the last 6 months I have had 2 particularly interesting answers -

" the best you have please sir!"

and a Netjets FO who said that:

"he only required fuel".!:)

[Dumbledor]

'And this has been my own personal anathema for quite some time. How exactly do you establish the binding contract (identified type of service X - pilot reads back type of service X) when the other party to the contract is NOT aware of the conditions they must undertake within the contract. '

That's a hard one. I suppose what Farnborough radar does for it's arrivals is best. Just give RAS (later DS), if you can, stating 'this is a RAS (or DS)'. Would that be allowed under CAP774 and 413? Its the best tool available and safest all round.

On dep from FAB clear you to 3400' (TMA at 3500') and say 'remain clear of controlled airpace, contact London...'. That would throw a foreign pilot too. They are unlikely to know where the contolled airpace is. Surely the clearance to 3400' on it's own should be enough?

[PPRuNe Radar]

On dep from FAB clear you to 3400' (TMA at 3500') and say 'remain clear of controlled airpace, contact London...'. That would throw a foreign pilot too. They are unlikely to know where the contolled airpace is. Surely the clearance to 3400' on it's own should be enough?

If a light aircraft pilot busted Controlled Airspace, then they would be lambasted. It should be the same for a professional pilot.

As a GA pilot, if I go and fly in France or the US or anywhere else for that matter, I do my homework and look at their rules and regulations, buy the appropriate charts, and try and keep my nose clean. For a professional pilot operating commercially in a foreign country, why should we expect anything less ? In someways it should actually be easier for them as many will have an Ops department who can supply them with all they need in terms of support and data filtering. Professional flight guide and chart suppliers also supply the relevant text in their documentation, all it requires is someone to make the effort to read it.

Failure to prepare is to prepare to fail ..... and that's just as relevant to professional pilots as it is to GA ones IMHO.

Of course, it would help immensely if the UK just stuck to ICAO procedures, instead of using a bastardised bespoke procedure for a bastardised bespoke airspace setup.

[HEDP]

First an apology; I am off to sandy places so therefore have placed these ATSOCAS to the back of my mind until I return and have time to research and use them.

Discussion here however has raised my curiosity and I have a couple of questions for those with much better knowledge than myself:

Are these procedures to be specific to UK only or are they JAA wide?

If they are UK specific then what procedures and services would UK military ATC deliver when operating abroad?

Like I say, the training is next week however I shall miss it and interest has been aroused, thanks, HEDP

[rowdyyates]

OH PLEASE... If its not too late lets scrap all these new "improved" services and stick with what we have, FIS, RIS & RAS. So simple and easily understood, maybe tinker with them a bit in order to update and ensure they are suitable for todays aviation environment, but that is ALL THAT IS NEEDED.
Remember Hutberts law: Improvement means Deterioration.:D

[Dumbledor]

'If a light aircraft pilot busted Controlled Airspace, then they would be lambasted. It should be the same for a professional pilot.

As a GA pilot, if I go and fly in France or the US or anywhere else for that matter, I do my homework and look at their rules and regulations, buy the appropriate charts, and try and keep my nose clean'

Most the bizjets flying around Europe have a set of IFR Jepps or Aerad charts. We have a S England 1/500,000 VFR chart as well for short trips outside CA from FAB to LTN for example. This clearly shows the boundaries of controlled airspace. We are not expected to have VFR charts for the whole of Europe and nor do the foreign pilots flying IFR.

I don't recall seeing the TMA boundaries denoted on the departure plates. My point was that if an a/c is cleared to 3400' which keeps them clear of CA then. The altitude clearance is enough. London then clears them to enter in the climb. We also need to remember that we have a luxury of being able to talk our own language on the radio, some don't.

To answer the question about Military radar units, the new services will be given by civil and military. I'm not sure but RAF radar units abroad (ie Gibraltar, Bruggen, Laarbruch etc if the latter ones are still open) would probably have to change at the same time.

D

[dme4ils]

Just to add my bit to this debate, as a Farnborough controller...

For services outside controlled airspace, we are required to negotiate a contract over the RT with a pilot. This is achieved by asking what service the pilot requires. We do this now for RIS/RAS and are required to continue to do this for Traffic/Deconfliction.

If the pilot obviously does not understand the question, then we would impose a RAS, or Deconfliction service on March 12th.

[atcomarkingtime]

well....we are ready for the new services and have been since November....but even today I find myself explaining to a pilot why I cant CLEAR him to an altitude on a FIS.....I found that after explaining it for the 4th time I was getting nowhere and he'd passed the aircraft he was in confliction with....so I am now making a swear box for 12/3/09 and maybe it will be full enough to donate on 13/3/09 for red nose day!!!!:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Dumbledor]

'If the pilot obviously does not understand the question, then we would impose a RAS, or Deconfliction service on March 12th.'

That's very good news. You get a great service from FAB too.

At least UK pilots should know what each service does for you. I flew with a foreign pilot who had been based here for a number of years. When asked the question 'what service...?' he used to say 'radar control'. I put him was right in the end.

D

[PPRuNe Radar]

Hi Dumbledore

The UK law is relatively specific, and applies to all aircraft flying within UK territorial airspace (as well as other examples for UK registered aircraft/pilots overseas) and the relevant portions are shown below:

Extra-territorial effect of the Order(a)
149 (1) Except where the context otherwise requires, the provisions of this Order:

(b) in so far as they apply as aforesaid to other aircraft shall apply to such other aircraft when they are within the United Kingdom or on or in the neighbourhood of an offshore installation;

(e) in so far as they prohibit, require or regulate as aforesaid the doing of anything in relation to any aircraft on or in the neighbourhood of an offshore installation, shall apply to every person irrespective of his nationality or, in the case of a body corporate, of the law under which it was incorporated and wherever that person or body may be.

Articles 16(9) and 19(2)

Aircraft Equipment

1 Every aircraft of a description specified in the first column of the Table in paragraph 5 of this Schedule and which is registered in the United Kingdom shall be provided, when flying in the circumstances specified in the second column of the said Table, with adequate equipment, and for the purpose of this paragraph the expression “adequate equipment” shall mean, subject to paragraph 2, the scales of equipment respectively indicated in the third column of that Table.


(2) Aeroplanes

(a) flying for purposes other than public transport; A(1) and (2) and
B(1), (2), (3), (4), (5) and (6)

(b) flying for the purpose of public transport; A, B(1), (2), (3), (4), (5), (6) and (7), D and F(1)



6 The scales of equipment indicated in the foregoing Table shall be as follows:

Scale A

(2) Maps, charts, codes and other documents and navigational equipment necessary, in addition to any other equipment required under this Order, for the intended flight of the aircraft including any diversion which may reasonably be expected.

So the fact that you don't have the relevant charts to allow you to complete a flight safely could mean you (or the foreign IFR pilot) is breaking the law. The fact that Farnborough gives you a 'clearance' which stops you busting Controlled Airspace is neither here nor there. As a pilot you should have the appropriate data in front of you, and know the boundaries and airspace rules. ATC will of course help out and hold your hand, but it's not their responsibility to do everything for pilots. Sometimes you need to take the responsibility for being a Captain and make sure you and your crew are fully briefed :ok: Sadly, as with most things in the world, the dumbing down of professionals, coupled with a blame everyone else culture, is well and truly established in the world :hmm: God help us !!

[Cuddles]

If you're truly concerned about ATSOCAS, then fly to and from aerodromes in CAS and continue the journey by car.

The thing that worries me is the fact that people already have developed their own 'interpretations' of the services.

And therefore the attempted standardisation has already failed. I shall be paying a great deal of attention to Appendix 1 of 744. I shall surmise it now.

Cover your arse.

That is all.

[bookworm]

The UK law is relatively specific, and applies to all aircraft flying within UK territorial airspace (as well as other examples for UK registered aircraft/pilots overseas) and the relevant portions are shown below:

I think you're misinterpreting it.

1 Every aircraft of a description specified in the first column of the Table in paragraph 5 of this Schedule and which is registered in the United Kingdom shall be provided

But that applies to aircraft registered in the UK, and not to other aircraft.

Art 19 and Schedule 4 apply in detail to UK registered aircraft -- other aircraft must only be equipped to comply with the law of the country in which they are registered. By contrast Art 20 and Schedule 5 (radio equipment) apply in detail to all aircraft in the UK.

Nevertheless, there is an expectation that foreign aircraft will comply with the standards set out in Annex 6. These require "current and suitable charts for the route of the proposed flight and all routes along which it is reasonable to expect the flight to be diverted". So it has the same effect.

[Dumbledor]

We might have found a something lacking here with Jeppesen charts. You should be able to identify the base of the TMA and boundaries of CA for example on the FAB departure plate, without refering to a VFR chart, but they are not mentioned. That would give you all the info req'd. I don't know aerad that well, maybe they are better.

The a/c flying in and out of FAB are mostly IFR and join CA shortly after dep. The boundaries of CA should be made clear in the IFR dep plates. Then if the pilots are to to 'remain clear etc' they know what to do.

I still think the command to 'remain clear' is unnecessary in this case if the maintaining the cleared altitude will keep you below the TMA. Clearance to enter CA in the climb should come in the next call to London anyway.

You will not find a complete set of VFR charts on the average bizjet for the whole of europe. A European Jeppesen Airway manual is probably the most common and sufficient for the job.

Perhaps I'm too practical. I wouldn't have made a good lawyer!

D

[PPRuNe Radar]

Thanks for the input Bookworm and Dumbledor.

Interesting debate :ok:

[AdriaticBlueDII]

"...On the odd occasions when I have heard a controller ask a foreign pilot what type of radar service he required the lengthy silence, followed by "roger" or "say again" suggests that few are familiar with the procedures.""

That was me. US aviator here, spending most of my time flying in the States, but every now and then end up here in UK at various airports, always IFR. Learning there are different types of radar services and would like (need) to know more... At my last 'international procedures' class I asked the instructor - he had no clue.
Can someone give a brief explanation of the three types of services available and/or point me to the appropriate source. I'm sure it's buried somewhere in the binders of Jepps we have, but getting it straight from a UK forum might be more user friendly.
Thanks for any help.

[rich_g85]

Have a look at this: Air Space Safety: ATSOCAS 917 (http://www.airspacesafety.com/content/ATSOCAS.asp)

[bingofuel]

Adriatic blue D11

No doubt an air traffic controller will come along, but start at the beginning.
ATSOCAS stands for air traffic services OUTSIDE controlled airspace, so is not relevant to the main airways or airports with control zones

Various levels of service are available provided the controler feels he can offer the service, varying from a basic service, traffic service, deconfliction service, to a procedural service.

Hope this helps

[10W]

No doubt an air traffic controller will come along, but start at the beginning. ATSOCAS stands for air traffic services OUTSIDE controlled airspace, so is not relevant to the main airways or airports with control zones

Plenty US operators have to operate outside Controlled Airspace when flying to some UK regional airports or GA airfields.

[Spitoon]

Plenty US operators have to operate outside Controlled Airspace when flying to some UK regional airports or GA airfields.Mmmmm......but they don't get an ATC service while they are outside CAS.

[10W]

Who mentioned ATC in any of the recent posts ? It's ATSOCAS we are talking about and US based operators do receive it on many occasions, including the radar based services available.

[AdriaticBlueDII]

With the link that rich_g85 (http://www.pprune.org/members/194301-rich_g85) posted, found this: http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/ga_srg_09webSSL08October.pdf

So, if I understand it;
When we're descending out of the FL's, and the controller mentions the DS term, we must be entering uncontrol airspace, correct?
And if asked what service we'd like, we should always just reply with DS, as opposed to Basic, Traffic, or Procedural... as we're always IFR, and it provides the 'ultimate' collision avoidance service provided.

Now if I can just get the Scottish accent down...
Thanks a lot for the help.

[Spitoon]

Disregard all after hello - I misread the last couple of posts!

Sorry for any confusion I caused.

[bingofuel]

Guys, ease up on the nit picking.Adriatic blue asked a question, and I respoinded by explaining the basic principle that ATSOCAS refers to outside controlled airspace and then the services available. I know many overseas visitors fly into non control zone airfileds or ga fields, but I was just trying to give a fairly basic answer to help him, not start a slanging match.

[10W]

Adriatic, you will leave Class C Controlled Airspace by descent (outside the main Controlled Airspace route structures) passing FL245 if the Military are playing in the airspace, or FL195 otherwise. You might also pop in and out of pieces of Controlled Airspace which you cut across, depending on the route you are flying. It's up to ATC to tell you that you are leaving and request what service you require. Deconfliction Service is probably the most appropriate if you are in IMC. Just be aware that you might be vectored around to avoid other traffic as the controller has to endeavour to provide a minimum distance from other unknown traffic he can see.

[5milesbaby]

AdriaticBlueDII, deconfliction service is the best you can get outside CAS, however, it is also the decision of the controller whether to provide it or not, or instead to provide a lower service including basic. It is rare for anything more than a basic service to be provided on my radar sectors (the southern part of the UK's airspace) and yes, we do often work passenger flights and big jets outside - that makes no difference to the decision.

[NQWhy]

Ahhh good old NATS!!!

[Not Long Now]

Good old everyone in the UK surely?

[NorthSouth]

5milesbaby:It is rare for anything more than a basic service to be provided on my radar sectors (the southern part of the UK's airspace) and yes, we do often work passenger flights and big jets outside - that makes no difference to the decision.The clear implication from that is that you rarely give anything better than a BS to commercial passenger flights outside CAS. I'm sure that's not what you meant. If you have a policy of "nothing more than a BS outside CAS" then I'm quite sure the second sentence of that policy is "transfer said traffic to XXX Radar, who are the designated LARS provider for the area".

NS

[Not Long Now]

It sounds like exactly what was meant, and yes I too give BS to commercial traffic. A service from a LARS unit would be nice, but what if the LARS unit aren't interested, despite being the designated LARS provider, and what if no clearance can be given at the time, a commonly used 'remain outside, call London for join' resulting in calling London outside CAS and receiving, you guessed it, basic service...

[chevvron]

One reason the controller says 'remain outside' is if the aircraft radio fails between frequencies, he hasn't had joining clearance thus 'should' not enter controlled airspace.

[5milesbaby]

NorthSouth - that is exactly what I meant.

I am not permitted by my employer to give ANY radar service to any aircraft OUTSIDE CAS below FL65, that covers about 70% of the traffic I normally work outside. The other 30% of traffic go into an airfield that isn't normally displayed on my radar range and the track is in the vicinity of military traffic doing strange maneuvers, and there can sometimes be no other agency to offer a service to these aircraft. They have the option to stay inside until well clear and descending in the overhead, but none have accepted this alternative yet. On another route, a standard right turnout going the "long way around" will keep flights inside CAS, but the shorter left turnout is still requested and used every day, and the same "basic service" given despite the request every time for a deconfliction one.

I had the opportunity once of even telling Concorde "Flight Information Service only" which led to and interesting telephone call about an hour later........

[chevvron]

You poor thing; you haven't lived until you give DS/RAS to a military 'Fastjet' doing 450kts through busy class G airspace (clears your sinuses)

[5milesbaby]

chevvron, maybe not, but I have been on the receiving end of that! But mine was a Kingair vs, not the easiest avoiding action I have ever given......