Swanwick TC

[abracadabra28]

Hi there. I am curious as to how people regard the Swanwick TC fraternity of ATC? Is it considered an elite posting to work director/approach in the London TMA, or is it luck of the draw? (Or bad luck as some people may see it?!) I am personally highly interested in the jobs of LL directors, think it sounds like a fascinating job. Do people get posted into such positions straight after approach training at the college? What is the OJT like?

Kindest regards,

Abracadabra

[eyeinthesky]

To give you an idea of how some people think LL Approach view themselves:
When TC relocated down to Swanwick, it was suggested that the LL controllers should go and live on the Isle of Wight... so they could walk to work!

More seriously, it depends upon what floats your boat: LL Director is a high-throughput job where the judgement of when to turn and descend aircraft to give the required spacing on final is critical, and a misjudgement can have a serious effect on the achieved movement rate at LL.

However, some people say that it is just like shelling peas once you have the hang of it....;)

Other people, like me, prefer the cut and thrust of the Area environment where there are crossing tracks, climbs and descents and different airspace challenges.

Now standing back and waiting for the fireworks... but it wasn't me who opened the can of worms!!:oh:

[Scuzi]

A few of the folk who do Heathrow approach consider themselves to be elite and make it known but they are usually the ones who create a 10 minute delay every time they plug in.
There are positions in the room other than Heathrow. Most of the positions are TMA sectors (North, South, Midlands, East and Capital) and the rest consist of the approach functions for Gatwick, Stansted/Luton (Essex Radar) and London City (Thames Radar).

Trainees get posted to all positions in the room straight from the college and some controllers cross validate to other sectors in the room.

I work a TMA sector and whilst I don't consider myself to be elite compared to my colleagues elsewhere, I do know that the airspace I control is much busier and much more complex than a lot, if not most other places. Obviously there are some people who will disagree with that statement, after all everyone is a better controller than everyone else :E

You have to be careful when discussing this as it will no doubt touch on a few sore spots. There is nothing "elite" at all about the controllers posted to TC. They may be siginificantly better at controlling a low level TMA or approach sector than someone who does a high level "hello, goodbye" but on the flip side they might be totally useless at controlling that high level sector or even an aerodrome for example.
What the figures do show though is that TC is generally a more difficult unit to validate at than elsewhere - at least on the TMA/Area side of things.

Some controllers are better than others. There are controllers out there who never cease to amaze me with their skill and professionalism. There are also controllers out there who make me wonder how on earth they still have a licence. The unit to which the controller belongs has no bearing on which of the above categories they fall into though. I know for a fact that not all TC controllers are elite gods because some of them are in fact quite sh!t.

[abracadabra28]

Thanks for the responses. The thought that I was opening a can of worms had crossed my mind.

If my ignorance is dreadfully apparent I do apologise, but what impact do CDA have working in the London TMA? Is a CDA the aim of every track? How frequently and to what extent are the holds used at LL? Will a third runway mean additional holding areas or will the four suffice?

[anotherthing]

If you are a very good controller, you go to TC.

If you are the best of the best, you get TC (Area) :p

[classicwings]

Heathrow Heros
Gatwick Gods
Stansted...........SCUM!! :p

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

I'm truly saddened to read some of the postings on here and I sincerely hope that they are very much tongue-in-cheek, or the job has changed drastically.

I started at Heathrow in January 1972 and spent 31 years as a Heathrow Director as well as 20+ years in the tower. I never once considered myself any better than any other controller, ATCA, typist, toilet cleaner or anyone else. I did my job and thoroughyl enjoyed it as it had been a dream of mine since I was about 10 years old.

NO ATCO is special and those who think they are are foolish. Those who are real stars at particular positions often fail miserably at others. I've seen plenty of ex-Heathrow controllers fail elsewhere and come back to Heathrow. One develops skills in particular tasks which may not be needed elsewhere - really good tower controllers might be rubbish on radar. A really hot Gatwick Director might be useless on the TMA or AC and vice versa. A well respected TMA wizard might go under in seconds on Heathrow GMC (seen it happen several times).

Don't EVER, EVER talk down another controller until you can do his job better than him..

Bren McC

[privatesandwiches]

But there is always Luton approach..... the best position if you have a hectic home life and like catching up on some beauty sleep whilst at work, or have a very big book to read... the puzzling thing is that you would still get band 5 pay, god knows why :E

[classicwings]

But there is always Luton approach..... the best position if you have a hectic home life and like catching up on some beauty sleep whilst at work, or have a very big book to read... the puzzling thing is that you would still get band 5 pay, god knows why http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/evil.gifIsnt that why they used to say that one was 'Lounging on Luton'...............!!!!!.:p

[anotherthing]

Privatesandwiches

Wash your mouth out son. Luton increased their reg from 2 to 3 arrivals an hour the other day (honest). Thats only 20 mins average between each aircraft for reading your book... it's very easy to lose the plot (literally) when you have to put your book down so often.

Also, Luton has to contend with being stuck between units which are busier, and therefore has to put up with the disturbance of hearing people talking to aircraft on the RT. It's not easy to totally immerse yourself in a book under these conditions you know. They could drown out the background noise by wearing headsets all the time they are at console, but the headsets hurt peoples ears... That's why taking headsets off during the day is acceptable - health and safety you see...

Luton should be band 6 because of the hardship they endure. It's ignoramouses like yourself who give ATC a bad name.

HD, unfortunately there are a handful of Heathrow Directors who think they are the best, but then again the same goes for some of those in the tower, and the same is true of some area controllers (TC/AC) - all saying their job is the most difficult... you are always going to get people like that, fortunately they are in the minority.

abracadabra28

There are many Manchester Area controllers who believe they should be paid the same wage as Swanwick controllers, though most of them actually state that they believe they should be on a par with the enroute guys, not the TC Area guys - who they say should be on more. Only putting that comment in because you were specifically asking about the way people consider TC.

The jobs are all different, so it is very difficult to compare.

[ZOOKER]

anotherthing,
MTMA ATCOs should be paid the same as LTMA ATCOs.
From my listening post here at the foot of Mt. Belzoni, it is obvious that 'oop north', a similar job is being done.
These people work in very complex airspace, (check the Eurocontrol tables),
AND, have to cope with extremely difficult terrain clearance issues. We're talking MOUNTAINS here.
Am I not correct that the highest Air Navigation Obstruction under LTMA airspace is the Stokenchurch relay station?
Also,
check out the NATS pollution map.
Who is melting the Polar caps?
Who is making the baby polar bears homeless? :E:E

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<These people work in very complex airspace, (check the Eurocontrol tables),
AND, have to cope with extremely difficult terrain clearance issues. We're talking MOUNTAINS here.
Am I not correct that the highest Air Navigation Obstruction under LTMA airspace is the Stokenchurch relay station? >>

With great respect to my friends in Manchester (where I was born about 200 years ago) this is irrelevant. Air Traffic Controllers are well familiar with their local geography and local instructions will detail the altitudes to which aircraft can be descended in safety. I dare say some of the controllers in parts of Scotland have mountains under their airspace too. Controllers know what they can and cannot do.

[anotherthing]

zooker

I was merely passing on some info to the thread originator, things that MACC controllers had said to me.

If you want to get into a pissing contest...

And here I was thinking that you had actually become more sensible of late Zooker.

As for mentioning terrain, how does that affect anything?!!! :ugh:

As for the pollution map, if you are inferring it is greater over the LTMA, don't you think that's because of the amount of traffic? :ugh:

[Scuzi]

Here we go!:uhoh:

[eastern wiseguy]

Is Zooker even an ATCO/ATSA/ATCE?:confused:

[SwanFIS]

He is an ATCO............................












A Total and Complete Oaf ;)

[BwatchGRUNT]

ZOOKER......why oh why oh why?????:confused::confused:

Just the EGCC MTMA boys deserve band 5 what about the area guys and gals at MACC. What a dumb ass...............:mad:

[Scuzi]

Don't feed the troll/idiot.

[Gonzo]

Using the 'ignore' function increases the signal to noise ratio.

[The Many Tentacles]

Zooker has been on my ignore list since I realised he has nothing to add to anything and is just a tit

[ZOOKER]

Surely the "best of the best" work in the towers at Heathrow, Gatwick and Manchester, the LTMA approach radar functions, and Manchester Approach.
I believe they have to pass some kind of assessment as part of the unit interview process prior to starting training. Does a similar process take place with NATS Area? :E
Do non-NATS airfields have the same requirements?

[Not Long Now]

a) yes you still have to do an assessment to get in to an area unit
b) the best being at specific units would require some sort of selective posting of trainees if you believe it's by selection, which isn't supposed to happen, or by becoming the best by working in the busier places, which may or may not happen depending on the individual. You never know if someone could do the 'busiest and best' unless they try it, posting does not necessarily reflect ability.

[glider insider]

I've normally found that those who shout about their ability are the ones you watch the closest. I much prefer it when people say they work at being a safe controller, rather than "they are an excellent controller". An over-rated view of one's ability is perhaps more dangerous than the under-confident person who has to work their nuts off each time.

[notlgw53]

Swanwick TC is great place to work made so by the people who work there in all grades. Of course there are variations in experience levels, (perceived) ability, attitude and the various tasks required. No-one is without value and no position is more or less worthy than another. Each sector has distinctive characteristics, varying complexity and its own exciting moments.
I see the whole operation from my dual roles as a sector controller and as a Group Supervisor.
There are always talking points, concerns and issues but the great thing about these is that people care enough to have an opinion. There will be many retirements of experienced and able people who are highly valued in the operation but it is a relief to see the steady arrivals of bright, enthusiastic and able younger people from the College. It is gratifying too to see the sheer effort that is put in to training these new arrivals and the help they get in building their confidence; to see how they develop as team members. As the lovely and 200 year old Brendan says you should never knock someone else for themselves or for their job. Everybody matters.

[abracadabra28]

Great post and a very refreshing attitude

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

notlgw53.. Wise words indeed...

[javelin]

Ey Up Bexil160 - what's your input ;-)

Going for a nosewheel - you're not well !