What is (was, will be) your command upgrade bond?

[Clandestino]

I'm currently flying medium-sized jet from RHS for third-world flag carrier and recently I've been given offer that I can't refuse: moving into LHS of 70-seater turboprop. However, despite staying with the same company, bond seems a bit excessive : 32 000 € (appx. capt's yearly net pay) over 5 years, non-decreasing.

I'm just curious how shafted I'll get compared with the rest of the world.

Thank you for your replies.

C.

[winkle]

cant be that good a company.

[apruneuk]

Here we go. I'll give it six pages!

[Mister Geezer]

I'm just curious how shafted I'll get compared with the rest of the world.

Shafted - big style!

[Flintstone]

Command bond? What on earth is that? I wasn't asked to agree anything other than my initial bond for TR on first joining the company. An upgrade bond sounds like a liberty to me, especially at the salary you're describing.

If the company thinks you're fit for upgrade and/or fleet change then it's for them to bear the cost.

Where is this third world outfit?

[Metro man]

Upgrade bonds aren't nearly as common as bonds for new joiners. Most companies realising a brand new captain won't be able to get a direct entry command in another company until he has 1-2 000 hours in the left seat.

ie after an upgrade you are stuck there for a couple of years unless you fancy going back to three stripes.

[RAFAT]

Command upgrade bond was zero.

Clandestino - that's totally outrageous! :=

[Dan Winterland]

Ditto. Zero - as it should be with a reputable employer.

Five years as a turbo prop command? It had better be a good job!

[fade to grey]

Thats a ridiculous figure..
sure they are not throwing in a 777 (and a 787) rating as well ?

32k euros is crazy talk.

[aztruck]

To be fair, if the employer forks out and then the new Cpt does a bunk to another airline then its a bit unfair on the company, especially if its an early Command.
Its not unknown for a small company to upgrade someone, only for them to hoof off to "big airlines" but in the right seat of course. The "Command" bit was just another notch on the CV.
My bond was 12k diminishing over 1 year. That was a realistic reflection of the training cost (sims, trainers etc), and also was slightly less than the LHS pay rise.
32k euro does sound excessive. Hope you like the outfit!:eek:

[fireflybob]

Command upgrade bond for me was just under £5,000 over two years.

[zerotohero]

There making the mick,,, for gods sake dont sign that! I would rather stay in the RHS and look for somewhere else than take that big a pole up the chuff!

[haughtney1]

Cost me couple of beers after the last sim :D

[bear11]

32k sounds like they are taking the p*ss. Generally speaking, an employer is not legally allowed to bond for more than the actual cost of what they're offering you - nice theory, it depends on what country you're in and whether some other poor soul has tested this in court to set a precedent. By cost, include sim time, course time, instructor time for checks, etc., so you'd be amazed how quickly it racks up.

I'd suggest also that the 5 years and non-reducing bond in the circumstances are also a dodgy ask legally. You need to talk to a pilot union or a local employment lawyer to check, well worth the cost if there is any given the amount you're being squeezed for.

[Alpine Flyer]

If you have a contract and seniority for uprgradings and the bond is not in the contract there should not be any.

We don't have upgrade bonds at our company. The company tried to get something like that but never had any chance as you were entitled to upgrading by seniority and did not have to sign anything to go left seat.

I don't think it's a fair proposition.

[bobrun]

You call that an offer you can't refuse! :eek::eek::eek:
I'm not saying don't do it, but think it through carefully.

[dkz]

From what you said i think it's not really about upgrade bond, it's about you getting a rating on that 70 seater t-prop.

Anyway 32k it's a lot.

Are you sure it's a "flag" carrier ? I know another company (private one) asking something similar (30k for a SB20 rating over 5 years) ... nobody signed that bond however :ok:

[Mister Geezer]

There was one UK turboprop operator that engaged in such a practice and perhaps they still do. They were seeing new Captains get a little bit of command time and then move onto something bigger in the RHS. Sadly if you wanted the command then the last thing you would do is get in touch with the Union so that they could take a closer look!

[763 jock]

How long before some $hitty little airline starts bonding crews for 12 months after each sim check?:ugh:

[FlyingOW]

I fly for a "3rd world" flag carrier and can safely say no FO has ever been bonded for a command course in my airline (and thats onto a 320).

Bond an existing FO for t-prop command? Crazy:ugh:

[BarbiesBoyfriend]

763 Jock

GAMA Aviation bond you after LPC according to my mate, who flies for them.

How **** is that?

[Flatspin_Fumble]

That, my son, is a real piece of ****.

[Clandestino]

Thank you people, your posts confirmed my suspicion that my illustrious MGT's is being economical with the truth when claiming that this type of bonding is nowadays widely spread and accepted.

And now to some fan mail.


Where is this third world outfit?

Europe. Yes, there are countries in Europe that don't comply with the second world standards.

Are you sure it's a "flag" carrier ?

We're state owned, have the same name as the country and the supervisory board is a bunch of pollitically selected... individuals, who were unable to guess the exact number of aeroplanes in the fleet, when asked by local economics weekly (it was eleven). I guess I'm sure.

To be fair, if the employer forks out and then the new Cpt does a bunk to another airline then its a bit unfair on the company, especially if its an early Command.

True. However, I'm not sure it's applicable to my situation: 8 years with the company, 4000TT. Unable to move elsewhere due to passport, which makes some overzealous visa officials ask straight faced: "Sir, have you ever commited a war crime or know someone who did?"

Generally speaking, an employer is not legally allowed to bond for more than the actual cost of what they're offering you

We're renewing the fleet so training is included in the price of the new aeroplanes. I don't think that manufacturer gives price breakdown that would show how much pilots' trainning actually costs. And my company doesn't call it "bond". The term used is "contractual penalty".

I'd suggest also that the 5 years and non-reducing bond in the circumstances are also a dodgy ask legally. You need to talk to a pilot union or a local employment lawyer to check

My union's lawyer suggested me to sign the contract now and complain later. The union board basically said that we're on our own and it won't interfere. They felt offended when I labeled them as corrupt.

You call that an offer you can't refuse!

I've used the term advisedly, having Marlon Brando in mind. It wasn't an offer, it was a directive. Despite me telling the head of training that terms of contract are grossly unfair and that I won't sign it, my wife was informed by the telephone that her husband's training starts in a month. My cellphone was switched off because I was flying at the time. Also my name didn't appear on 6-months OPC roster. Currently it seems that MGT counts on giving me the trainning now and forcing me into signing the contract later.


If you have a contract and seniority for uprgradings and the bond is not in the contract there should not be any.

We have abolished seniority 2 years ago. What little has been left of collective agreement is constantly being trampled by MGT and my fellow pilots have taken the stance: "We're doing fine, they haven't started beating us yet."

[bear11]

Yuck - management sucks, the union sucks, and you're on your own. You can't sort out management, and the union wimping out leaves you without the ability to face it collectively. Actually, manufacturers costings based on contracted training credits can be far worse than your local TRTO who have to compete with others. "How much are my training credits worth?" can easily generate an inflated answer.

The only solution seems to be to stop paying your union fees and use the money saved to pay a solicitor who knows local and EU employment law to advise, being in the EU could make a big difference. Or/and you could try contacting IFALPA individually, as they could have some European law having lobbied on behalf of other EU ALPAs, or possible legal precedents from other unfortunates in other EU countries. It's not just the amount, the time period and non-reducing "contractual penalty" are all worth running by a solicitor who knows employment law.

Good luck.

[latetonite]

You confuse me, is it an upgrade or are you buying that screw driver?:\

[BarbiesBoyfriend]

Flatspin. You makes me larff.:ok:

[plain-plane]

once/if you move company (and country), how would they be able to collect, that is the real and only question...:cool:

[dkz]

"Currently it seems that MGT counts on giving me the trainning now and forcing me into signing the contract later."

Well, start learning and screw them later :}

By that time you will have 2 ratings on your licence and if they won't let you fly ... with 4000 TT you will get something.

[Clandestino]

being in the EU could make a big difference

I'm only too painfully aware of it. My country is not part of EU nor it will be in the foreseeable future. Getting me an EU work permit is an extra mile that no respectable EU company is willing to walk. I fancied a go at flying Avros out of ZRH, but then we're no part of EFTA either. And I was really willing to learn german.

once/if you move company (and country), how would they be able to collect, that is the real and only question...

From my guarantors. I need to have a pair of these too.

[Mister Geezer]

Never thought of classing Croatia as a third world country! :}

[drfaust]

Clandestino, I guess you're being thoroughly shafted up the ****ter, so to speak. Whatever did happen with your employment or contract? My fleet chief went to ZGB several times to do some low-visibility training/certification i believe for the Q400 a while back and he told me he had a really nice impression of the outfit.

I am aware that Croats are just a *tad* nationalistic. Are you sure everyone gets a bond like that when they get an upgrade? Because surely that must be illegal if that is not the case.

Really curious what happened to your situation or maybe even more information about the airline.

[Clandestino]

I'm sorry, but IAW local laws and some pieces of paper I've signed, I can not either confirm or deny I was referring to Croatia.

There were some good cop - bad cop games and after a bit of friendly persuasion, I signed. Currently I have completed 2 sim sessions and there are 8 to go. Good news is it isn't 32 K€ bond, it's mere 28500. Phew!

Are you sure everyone gets a bond like that when they get an upgrade?

Starting last year, yes. Five year upgrade bond was common practice in my company, but until last year it was reducing every month and starting amount was smaller, although one couldn't reallistically repay it until it was brought down to appx 30%. A year ago we've started phasing out certain franco-italian turboprop and pilots forced into changing type, but keeping their seat, would get three year bond, F/Os upgrading would get five year bond. Also bonding one's employees for training provided by the company is widespread practice in our beautiful homeland, with no set limits to amount or length of the bond.

[Teddy Robinson]

£ 0.00 for any of my types.

TR