LHR ground controllers

[abovethebelow]

Hey guys just wondering if theres any of ye guys on here just have few questions id like to ask if you could pm me please,

cheers ATB :ok:

[Gonzo]

Check your PMs

[HHI OPS]

hey,

I have a few questions too - can I ask them here?

[AJ7]

yeah why not... :ok:

[Geffen]

Go for it. Hopefully you'll even get useful answers :)

[HHI OPS]

Thanks ;)

1. I was always wondering, why all pilots have to confirm the aircraft type on initial contact with delivery. I thought they have a FPL with the acft on it and at least, they can see the acft out of their window?!

2.A friend, airbus pilot, told me last week, that he was a bit confused with a controller instruction at LHR: "XXX, clearance correct, HOLD SHORT and contact Ground on XXX.XXX.
Is that standard phraselogy at Heathrow. If so, why?!

[AJ7]

(a trainees answer)

Confirming the a/c type is to check we have the right type on the strip in front of us, its a mandatory requirement in our operating manual. I can see where the 'out the window' thought comes from, but you can't see ALL the stands from the delivery position. So the verbal confirmation from the pilot helps. The strips aren't often wrong, but if they were and we didnt check etc etc...

As regards holding short - I personally have heard a lot of pilots readback that they will hold short of a holding point such as LOKKI, however we do have regular clearance limits that are on one taxiway short of another (Bravo short of Foxtrot) etc. We also state 'hold short' when transferring to tower for runway crossings.

I a) hope I am correct (others more experienced may confirm or deny this) and b) hope it has answered the question :)

[point5]

Is your second part of the question referring to GMP too? The phraseology would be to "hold position, contact ground on..." This is new(ish) phraseology to prevent aircraft pushing back without a clearance.

[HHI OPS]

@AJ7: Many thanks :)

@Point5: Exactly that one! I can't imagine why a pilot crew should start the pushback without any clearance :confused:

[timelapse]

Another thing re a/c type.. Sometimes operators will change an aircraft used for a certain flight if one goes tech for example, and forget to refile.. so the flight plan has the wrong type on it hence the requirement to check.

[Data Dad]

HHI OPS Wrote:

I can't imagine why a pilot crew should start the pushback without any clearanceWhilst I don't work at Heathrow - even at smaller airports it happens! My most recent one involved an Irish registered 737 who were behind schedule and had a "tight" CTOT. In the ensuing investigation it seems that having received their "ATC Departure Clearance" they interpreted that as also push/start clearance - which was not the case.

DD

[Spangly]

Absolutely agree with Data Dad. We’ve had several unauthorised pushbacks (not at LHR but another London airport) and now use that phraseology. What can add to the confusion is certain operators (often the German ones) for whom ‘start’ is when they receive their clearance, although they are not in fact starting their engines or ready to push.

[BigBoeing]

Another London airport, it happens many many times. Either just after airways clearance has been recieved, or you just look up and someone is merrily pushing back on a whim. Any extra phraseology, although seemingly unnecessary is worth it if it stops an unauthorisde pushback.

[autothrottle]

Experience shows us that some pilots think that start approval from GMP implies Pushback approved too. It may come from operating at smaller airfields where "push and start approved " and Clearance delivery are issued by one controller doing ground with no GMP position.

[HeathrowAirport]

To my Knowledge, Most Clearance are given by Data Link now right?

Still got a Clearance DEL but some or most Clearances are done by data link right? Same at EGKK as well?

Regards,

R..

[Gonzo]

I'd guess maybe 50-60% of traffic use DCL/PDC. However, 121.975 is also the Ground Movement Planner frequency, so all a/c should call it to report ready for push.

We have had many instances of a/c receiving their clearance via DCL/PDC and switching straight over to Ground to request pushback.

[HeathrowAirport]

Hi Gonzo,

Thanks for Confirming.

So it's straight over to DEL in anyway.

Standard Clearence> Start up > Push with GND
Data Link> Start up> Push with GND?

Regards,

R..

[AJ7]

Yeah thats pretty much it, whether they get clearance via RT or DCL, they request start with DEL, who then approves the start and transfers them to GND for the push.

[HeathrowAirport]

That what i gathered it was like :P

[NW3]

We have had many instances of a/c receiving their clearance via DCL/PDC and switching straight over to Ground to request pushback.


Nice has a good slant on this where the clearance will have "NEXT FREQ 123.45" or whatever tagged on to the end.

[Skipness One Echo]

To my Knowledge, Most Clearance are given by Data Link now right?
Still got a Clearance DEL but some or most Clearances are done by data link right? Same at EGKK as well?


Only if flight is on time and with certain airlines who report PDC ( Pre Departure Clearance ) recieved, the rest are either on a Revert To Voice as the clearance failed to be acknowledged on time or aren't signed up to the system.

The Clearance Delivery is still a busy frequency at both Gatwick and Heathrow.

[Gonzo]

There is no 'signing up' for the procedure. if the aircraft's equipped, then it's up to the crew. Even if they do make use of the DCL, they still have to call on the Delivery frequency when ready to start.

NW3, hopefully we'll get the functionality to send messages with a DCL soon.

[30W]

Gonzo,
There is no 'signing up' for the procedure.

Any idea when that changed? As of a couple of years back NATS required both a copy of the operators procedures and also a 'live test' to be conducted prior to authorising an operators DCL usage.

I was in process of sorting for my company at that time, but it all got dumped internally when a company merger was announced....

[Gonzo]

30W, check your PMs