Passenger boarding without flight crew - what does your airline do ? ....

[Aldente]

Here at a large low cost airline in Europe (shouldn't be too hard to guess which one !), we have just had a memo from our Chief Pilot in which he tells us that "like many other airlines", cabin crew are now allowed to board the aircraft without the presence of the flight deck crew, provided that the APU is not running, and fuelling is not taking place.

I can see all kinds of potential pitfalls with this procedure...... just wondered what the "many other airlines" do ? .......

[Dc-Nine]

Here at Spotty M No flight deck = no boarding whatever the circumstances

[NigelOnDraft]

<<cabin crew are now allowed to board the aircraft without the presence of the flight deck crew>> At our "big" UK airline, out Cabin Crew almost always board the aircraft before us :)

But I think you are really talking about passenger boarding? And again, yes, with suitable restricitons this is permitted, and often occurs...

NoD

[Aldente]

Sorry, yes, just to clarify, the memo clearly says that cabin crew are now permitted to board passengers without any flight deck crew being present ......

[luvly jubbly]

I can't see any problem with this..... Obviously they would have confirmed that flight crew are indeed on their way to the aircraft. Flight crew only need to be there to fire the APU extinguisher!

If the APU is off, and there's no fuelling then what's the problem? CC are trained to initiate evecuation should something unforseen occur....

[CEJM]

As mentioned before here at Spotty M no flight crew = no boarding.During my time as engineer with a certain Dutch airline, they could board without any flight crew as long as one of the engineers was present. However that might have changed now as I am talking about a decade ago.

[Donkey497]

I may be taking an overly simplistic view, but it seems quite obvious to me.Who is trained and legally responsible for ensuring that the aircraft is in safe to enter and to operate? - Only the flight crew, and I suppose, taking it to the legal ultimate, it is the pilot alone.Therefore if the flight crew has not checked the aircraft, it cannot be assumed that it is always in a safe condition to enter.Likewise, as the majority of [hazard] indicators are solely present on the flight deck, if there is no-one on the flight deck, regardless of how much training any other crewmember may have had, it is incorrect to assume that even if the aircraft has been checked & was safe, that it will remain so.If Cabin Crew are being permitted now, it is only time before passengers are allowed to do the same.We have seen a fair few threads discussing fires, failures and (internal) short circuits of standby battery power sources, most caught by the attention of someone on the flight deck. Should one of these incidents occur with an empty flight deck, cabin crew on board & passengers half boarded, who will be responsible? In the worst case of a fire following a short-circuit with the aircraft as described, how much damage will occur to the aircraft before the problem is noticed & how long will it take to de-plane?This does not seem to me, to be what could be termed, a wise and considered step forward for continued safe operation.

[Rainboe]

Sorry, but that view is a bit of a 'work to rule' attitude. Any of those things can happen whether passengers are boarding or not. Aeroplanes are left powered up under the control of an engineer who may not even be aboard. Cabin crew are aware of the situation and are well trained to react to any emergency. Cargo aircraft are loaded with no flight crew present. The pilots are not needed until fuelling and APU time. It's a good procedure. The Despatcher will liaise with the groundstaff and cabin crew to ensure boarding can commence.

[Aldente]

With regard to the no fuelling aspect, the re-fuellers at my base normally just turn up connect the fuel hose to the aircraft and start pumping (they already know how much via a message passed to them earlier), and would not normally know (or care) if the flight deck was manned. The cabin crew would noramlly be busy supervising the pasengers etc, are they supposed to keep one eye out of the window to check to see whether the re-fueller has turned up and then run outside to stop fuelling until flight deck crew arrive ?

Medical emergency ? ..... Pasenger has heart attack after climbing up the steps, the quickest way to summon help is often via the radio (ATC/Handling agent), difficult with no flight deck crew ......

[NigelOnDraft]

The points above are all valid, and catered for in the airline's procedures (i.e. APU, Refuelling, Engineer as/if/when required). The rules have been that way since I joined some 12 years ago...

[The Real Slim Shady]

I'm with Rainboe on this. Simply because it has always been done this way is no logical response to a considered change to procedures.

In this case there is no internal power on the aircraft: if external power is connected and running the 115VAC external bus, the Ground service buses and the battery chargers are powered on the 737NG. If the battery switch is off there are no indications on the flightdeck.

As to refuelling, the refuellers are not permitted to connect the hose or start refuelling without the Captain's permission.

[IRISHinUS]

Here in the US there doesn't seem to be any limitation (CAL). As long as there is a cabin crew they can board whether fueling or not. It doesn't even have to be the cabin crew for the flight - often they'll use FAs sitting airport reserve.

I've occasionaly turned up to find all the pax already on board with the exception of jumpseaters that need captain's permission to board even if in the cabin.

[RYR-738-JOCKEY]

The procedure allows pax boarding with only the presence of Cabin crew provided no fuelling and no APU running. One question springs to mind: How will the cabin crew know if either is the case? Of course, look outside for the fuelling but what if the fueller shows up just after boarding has been commenced?
My point is the whole thing needs to be supervised by either an engineer or flight deck crew.
Who will be in charge legally?

[IRISHinUS]

I don't see the issue to be honest, maybe we just don't have the no-fuelling restriction. If there is a fire the cabin crew is there to evacuate the plane and in the absence of a flight crew the gate agent is the ground security coordinator (and is legally responsible).

If, in the very unfortunate case that the plane turns out to have a maintanence issue that requires deboarding (O2 service, for example) then things will not be really that much slower than if you hadn't boarded in the first place. At least everyone already has their stuff in the overheads.

[Seat62K]

Where airlines allow passengers to board before flight deck crew, is there a rule that when this happens the flight deck door must be locked (or otherwise guarded)? I'd hate to think that the flight deck could be accessible to passengers:eek:.
P.S. I remember being a passenger on a US Airways 'plane which made an en route stop at Pittsburgh. I was the only person who chose not to get off and stretch his/her legs. When we took off for Charlotte I discovered that not all the cabin crew could leave the aircraft because of me; if I'd known this, I'd have gotten off, too. I felt sorry for them!

[sevenstrokeroll]

when I first started with a major airline here in the USA, boarding could even be done with the apu running and both pilots off the plane...f/a's had to be on board of course.

then it was changed to : one pilot had to be on board if the apu was running and pax were to be boarded or even remaining onboard on a through stop.

but if ground power/air was/were hooked up, the fa's would board without the pilots. Like the CAL guy above, sometimes non flying or "boarding duty" flight attendants would board for the crew while the flying crew was racing through the airport. Of course the pax would still have to wait while we preflighted and sometimes if we found something wrong with the plane, we had to have everyone get off the plane.

Now, I think it is better and safer to have the pilots and full cabin crew on board with the plane fully ready/preflighted in case something goes wrong...which it did one time.

The mx staff was changing a nosewheel, the plane was jacked up at the nose jacking point, pax on board. But the jetbridge (jetway) got caught under the main cabin door and the self leveling mechanism started to lift up the cabin door...until it and the plane slipped off and fell about 2 feet ...BANG.

I was on board as the f/o at the time (many years ago) and got on the PA system to reassure the passengers. It was this incident that made me want to do things the right and expensive way...full crew on board, to board.

The captain was walking between the jetway and the plane when it fell and he almost lost his head. The plane was damaged and taken out of service.

Be careful, don't be cheap...but that seems to be the order of the day.

[Lost in Saigon]

Where airlines allow passengers to board before flight deck crew, is there a rule that when this happens the flight deck door must be locked (or otherwise guarded)? I'd hate to think that the flight deck could be accessible to passengers:eek:.


At Air Canada it is an everyday occurrence. Pilots often arrive (late due to aircraft swaps) to find the aircraft fully boarded, fully fuelled, with the APU running, flight deck door wide open, and the jump seat passenger standing in the galley.

This is not a safety problem as the Flight Attendants are responsible for the aircraft and the APU has full fire protection and auto shutdown capabilities.

[Artificial Horizon]

Well at BA you can only board pax without the flight crew if the emergency lights are armed, there is a dispatcher present and the crew are guarding their doors. Emergency lights can only be armed though by Flight Crew or Engineer so to be honest most of the time they have to wait for the Flight Crew to pitch up anyway.

[sevenstrokeroll]

at what time aren't the emergency lights armed? perhaps on the first flight of the day (in which case it is easy to have the whole crew onboard)?

We don't disarm the lights on a crew change.

It is interesting that there are so many other ways to do things. Not good, just different.

Sadly, too many things are done for money and not the highest level of safety.

[411A]

Ad-hoc charter carrier, type L1011.
CC are allowed (and encouraged) to board pax without the presence of FD crew, with the APU operating and fueling in progress....however, in ALL such cases, two ground engineers must be present, but not necessarily on the FD.

Works like a charm.

[Artificial Horizon]

Every time we leave an aircraft the emergency lights are disarmed.

[wee one]

Well under rules forced on us by our yank masters the cockpit security check must be done before the boarding. The Flight crew are responible for that , not the engineers or anyone else.
EG Very easy for a disgruntled Engineer to drop a stroppy pilot in the sh1t by letting them board and secreting something whilst the captain has responsibility, and then informing DFT anonymously.
Not that I expect the yanks to adhere to anything. Just look at the Junpseat. Free use of it for crew in the states and bugger all in Puppet sates such as the UK.

[My 737]

If the CC arrive at a the A/C with no power, as happens quite often, can they now throw on the BAT and put the GND PWR on line, arm the Emergency Exit lights and start boarding? I think not.

What about defects that are written up in the tech log, where the MEL would ground the A/C or even not allow pax on board. :ouch:
Asking for trouble in my opinion.

Fly safe.

[NigelOnDraft]

My 737...

If you read the above posts, you will see it is not possible to <<If the CC arrive at a the A/C with no power, as happens quite often, can they now throw on the BAT and put the GND PWR on line, arm the Emergency Exit lights and start boarding? I think not. >>

<<What about defects that are written up in the tech log, where the MEL would ground the A/C or even not allow pax on board>> Latter - such as? Former - OK, but for the 0.01% chance that applies, is is not worth having the [i]ability and procedures[i/] to do so, if deemed appropriate. For those of us on "hub" type operations, is it really worth delaying a flight for an extra 30+ mins because you have aircraft, Pax, Engineers, refueller, but Flt Crew late inbound on another flight?

As alluded to above, it rarely works out we use this "ability", but that is no reason not to say it should be forbidden...

<<Asking for trouble in my opinion.>> As also stated above, has been in place with one of the major UK carriers for at least 12 years, if not much more (probably dates back to BEA!). So whilst concerns are always worth expressing, we are not discussing something "new".

NoD

[Loose rivets]

Leaking fuel comes to mind. Doesn't happen much these days, but I've had a dripping wing a few times.

[SpamCanDriver]

Well in the airline with a smile CC are allowed to board without flightdeck and are even trained how to fire the APU bottle should there be a fire

[nrm2]

Have to say, lots of great and very interesting views on the whole boarding without cockpit crew issue, its interesting that procedures vary so widely across the industry. I wonder with the introduction of EU ops for european airlines (as opposed to JAR ops) will policies and procedures like this one become more standardised?

So heres my 2 cents worth and how we do it:

The CC are permitted to board passengers without cockpit crew on board provided the aircraft is not being fueled and a full cabin crew compliment is present.

In relation to how we know if fueling has happened or not - just ask the dispatcher - they are responsible for all aspects of the turnaround and should be aware.

Concerning aircraft servicability - in base an engineer is present for the majority of the turnaround and generally are great about informing us of defects or problems that would stop us boarding. Obviously the purser should be able to make an judgement as to whether to hold off. It is rare that we would be downroute and the pilots would not be present, happens the odd time on long haul ops but its rare.

In relation to passenger safety and potention emergencys while on the ground, whilst the cabin crew dont claim to know as much about the aircraft as the cockpit crew we are still trained to operate on our aircraft and are aware of whats normal and what we should be concerned about, eg smoke, fire, strange smells or noises from the aircraft. In the absence of either pilot the purser becomes the most senior crew member onboard and the decision of whether or not to evacuate the cabin rests with him / her.

Please dont jump down my throat for that comment - we are aware of how much more the pilots know about the aircraft than us, the point im making is that we know whats normal and whats not onboard and have the ability to get the passengers off quickly if we feel it is necessary. After all if the pilots ever gave the command to evacuate it would be the cabin crew that carried out the evacuation.

Finally in relation to cockpit security and access - crew must be at their stations for boarding, the purser and usually at least 1 other crew member are always in the area of the fwd galley and as such the cockpit door. No access would be granted to anyone other than an engineer.

Anyway - again im not saying our procedures are right or wrong - but thats just my view on how we overcome some of the problems mentioned in previous posts.

Looking forward to hearing more on this post - its an interesting one!

[AnQrKa]

411A,

"works like a charm".

Of course it does, right up until the point when a fire breaks out. Then it wont work at all.

I used to agree - board pax without flight crew no probs.

But then I read an article about a DL 727 that cought fire at the gate and went up in smoke really quickly. Only a handfull of pax onboard just managed to get out. Then China airlines went up in smoke in Japan so quickly it would make your head spin.

But more importantly - why board with no pilots. If the crew are arriving fresh to an aircraft, its going to take up to 30 mins to get settled, turn stuff on, read the tech log etc.

start the boarding then.

[AAIGUY]

But what do you care if a fire breaks out and kills all the pax?

you're not responsible till you pitch up to the thing.

If the company choses to operate like this , they are the ones in the ****.

Seems win win.. You spend less time waiting in the cockpit for SLF, company can operate more efficently.

All this stuff about "what if" is really over the top..

Your responsibility doesn't include planes the company owns, but you've not checked on to.

I can see the Cabin Crew Union being pissed about it. It's not as safe for them if there is an issue, but tech crews have nothing really to do with it.

[411A]

<<But more importantly - why board with no pilots.>>

Many times, flight duty limitations, at least in our case.
At a remote parking bay, pax boarding is normally a long process (362 pax, in our case) and the FD flight duty periods are normally long (16 hours max) but CC are allowed to go to 18 hours, same for ground engineers (we carry a minimum of two, always) so it makes perfect sense.

Fire on the ground?
Ground engineers are always present, and they have been properly trained for such occasions....as are CC for cabin difficulties.

[Aldente]

Thanks for the feedback, some interesting points raised......

Now how about this one ? (same airline !) latest missive from Chief Pilot is that passenger head count will be done and TOB figure passed to and confirmed with Captain after the doors have been closed ......

[Dropline]

Ridiculous idea. If the headcount is wrong, how are ground staff supposed to carry out their duties if the a/c has been closed up. Mistakes can be made during the boarding process, especially one as quick and chaotic as this airline adopts, and ground staff need to be able to access to the a/c in order to establish either who is missing, (and if they have checked bags in), or who the EXTRA pax may be. I have had arguments with Captains of this particular airline who were rushing to meet their turnaround time and could not understand that as a dispatcher I need to know EXACTLY who is or is not on board an aircraft before I will allow it to depart. Closing the door prior to the headcount is going to cause more problems than it resolves. Often I prefer to do the headcount myself, so I know it has been done properly - how can I do that if the door has been closed?

[Ray D'Avecta]

At my airline, there has to be at least one FD crew member present for passenger boarding to commence (plus the full complement of CC).....and the VHF radios must be continuosly monitored while the a/c is on the ground with pax or crew on board..............and we jolly well like it like that! :ok:......cos we dont have to worry about the Cabin crew learning to operate the radios if there are no FD crew present. :}

We also have the option, SCD, to have the headcount done after the doors are closed. This is usually for delay reporting and pushback truck / start up clearance sequencing, and is more relevant at some airfields than others, depending on whether we are on an airbridge or on the ramp, etc. It is particularly useful at our very busy home base where the pushback truck will not even attach until the doors are closed and beacon on.

Have to say though that the number of occassions that the headcount and loadsheet figures do not tally is relatively very small......maybe we are just very lucky to have very good handling agents :) so it works for us.

[Abusing_the_sky]

maybe we are just very lucky to have very good handling agents

Aaahhhh, but you ARE very lucky:ok:

This airline's handling agent is well known for c@ckups. 3 out of 4 flights have wrong figures at the gate. So closing the doors and then do a headcount is such a daft idea.
However, the Memo doesn't say you can't do a headcount with the doors open...;)

[sevenstrokeroll]

funny how in England a dispatcher is at the plane making sure the turnaround goes well

in the USA a dispatcher is in a building thousands of miles from most airports, he checks the wx and the fuel load and files the flight plane (usually a canned flight plan) and argues with pilots about how much fuel to carry.

In the USA a dispatcher is a licensed professional, having to take a written exam similiar to the ATP written.

hmmmm

[411A]

Having worked under both scenarios, sevenstrokeroll, I would have to say I prefer the UK/Europe idea...except for one area, re-dispatch/re-release enroute.
With the latter, having that licensed dispatcher available has many advantages, thus possibly prevently a slightly rosey glow being put on by the operating crew, when in actual fact the destination and alternate wx is going in the cra*per.

[Stop Stop Stop]

In my company, the captain is "...responsible for the safety of all crew members, passengers and cargo on board, as soon as he arrives on board, until he leaves the aircraft at the end of the flight."

This would suggest that if a passenger should become injured whilst boarding, or prior to the arrival of the captain, then there would be no-one officially responsible for that injury. It would hardly be fair for the captain to be made responsible for this injury and have to complete accident forms and ASR's etc. Would that be the responsibility of the No.1?

No, I cannot see any reason to board without flight deck crew. It makes no sense. If the ground staff want to expedite boarding, get the passengers ready at the gate or get the bus waiting outside the aircraft ready to board as soon as the crew arrive. After all, even if they are all sitting in the cabin, the cockpit crew still have to do their checks which could be done whilst they are boarding.

If there was a MEL item that precluded boarding, would the cabin crew know that or be aware? I suspect not. This is a case where the 'tail is wagging the dog.' Captains at these airlines should put their foot down and not accept this ridiculous policy, clearly imposed by management types and beancounters who have no clue about aircraft operation, other than delay codes. Time to put the capital C back into Captain!

[slip and turn]

I agree that things should be sharpened up a bit.

Apart from no presentation of passport required to cross to airside and reach the gate at one major UK airport we also have a new routine at the same airport which involves cursory pre-inspection of passports 'in the vicinity' of the gate. In an effort to trim boarding times even further the inspections now often do not occur 'at the counter' but they now come to you McDonalds Pre-Order style in the (open) queues, with no further presentation of anything required to walk through to the aircraft ten minutes later.

Very slack.

As for captain in charge bit, the law says it's from when the doors shut I think, which is perhaps why we get all these exploitative variations creeping in.

And as for who is potentially liable during boarding for any injuries well I guess with some airlines it depends on whether you board at the front or the back.

[sevenstrokeroll]

Face it, we control very little.

I recall advising the gate agent not to board as there were 3 hour deciing delays at Boston.

He boarded behind my back and a real row came about. I asked him if he wouldn't rather be stuck in a nice waiting lounge with phones (before cell phones were super big), a place to buy food or a newspaper or on a plane with peanuts.

He told me I didn't have the authority to stop boarding.

I said, all I have to do is disarm the emergency lights and order the flight attendants off.

Mexican standoff for about a minute.

He then got the passengers off and we waited 3 hours.

face it, captains are nothing now a days except for scapegoats when something goes wrong.

[411A]

face it, captains are nothing now a days except for scapegoats when something goes wrong.

Well, it depends.

In the middle east/Africa areas where I fly (don't fly to the UAE, so can't say about there) the FD crew are waived right on through security, with a 'good evening Sir' (yup, true) and when arriving at the airplane, with pax boarding already in progress, there seem to be very few problems.
Why is this?
It is the Captain who sets the tone, and assigns duties as necessary, to make it all work smoothly.
Example.
Company calls the Captain at hotac and says...boarding in three hours.
Capt says...OK, do ground engineers agree?
Handling agent says, yes. Capt checks by mobile phone to be sure.
Good enough, boarding at your pleasure, CC will be present beforehand.
One half hour prior to scheduled boarding, CC arrive and complete safety checks.
Catering starts.
Pax arrive shortly thereafter.
FD crew arrives shortly after nearly all pax boarded.
Tech log/DD log checked, fuel load checked (Capt has been contacted previously about this, and given an OK), wind up the IRU's (if not already commenced by ground engineers), flight plan into the FMS's, baggage loading now completed, pax loading completed, head count OK, ask for ATC clearance, close doors, ask for start clearance.

Works like clockwork...provided it is all organized.
Our...are.
Others...I have no idea.

There is a definite reason ours work well.
The answer is...nearly all (except Commanders) are ex- Royal Jordanian.
RJ...one of the best in the business, in the middle east.
True years ago, true now.:ok:

'Tis an absolute pleasure to work for these ex-RJ folks...the best in the business.

Find an ex-RJ crew, find happiness.:):ok:

[Phil1980's]

I was a PAX on BMI 591 I think it was from MAN-LHR last year and they were re-fueling the ACRFT while I was sat in the plane

[airsupport]

Well in my 40 years in the Industry, I doubt if there would have been even one day where we didn't board at least one flight without the Pilots being on board, as long as the Engineer is at the Aircraft, and the Cabin Crew on board of course. :ok:

[Damianik]

You guys all assume we are talking about an airline with well trained indipendent intelligent and mature CCs but this is not the case .rarely they would take any kind of serious action without being commanded so either for lack of commitment to the job to wich they aren't affectionate or for lack of any training apart from a strong drive to sell a cheap product.
The rest of the considerations are valid if not In the above case's airline.
D

[slip and turn]

Now how about this one ? (same airline !) latest missive from Chief Pilot is that passenger head count will be done and TOB figure passed to and confirmed with Captain after the doors have been closed ......I wonder if that was the same airline I flew with a month ago who had a headcount problem (was it 181 or 182?) involving Team Leader calls on his mobile from the aircraft, three flight crew shuffling and huffing on the flightdeck, number 1 doing about four counts and ultimately some kind of committee decision being made that it all made sense because there were two boarding cards issued with the same sequence number? Number 92 I recall :eek:

It all goes to pot sometimes - thank goodness most of the numbers are lucky...

[condorbaaz]

All LOCOs want to keep the pilot out of the loop whenever and wherever they may cause a delay.
In case of an incident "Captain is responsible for every thing for which responsibility is not specified".
In my company, they wanted pilot to just fly the plane like we give it to you.
A few issues of the kind which cant be forecast, the COO calls the Capt, who tells him, "I will fly how CP tells me only. This is not what he told me. You have passed instructions which have led to this foul up not me. Ask your chief pilot to inform me of the solution.I will wait till my duty time gets over"
After this the CP calls him to thank him for making the COO see light etc could you please accomodate this once etc.....

Coming to such inane practices, in the daily delay report meetings, this becomes an issue which needs to be solved.
Incase of incident, hold the nearest crew member.CC or FD responsible and continue.
Commerce not safety.

We can make a car that will never crash but then you could not buy it...

I recall some automajor saying in US..

[Abusing_the_sky]

You guys all assume we are talking about an airline with well trained indipendent intelligent and mature CCs but this is not the case

Excuse you?!?

The airline is Ryanair. Everyone knows it but no one says it.

As for your comment, that is way out of order. Please don't tar everyone with the same brush.

I know of a PU with a Master Degree in English; another one is a lawyer in Spain; both fly because they enjoy it. They fly with this airline because the money are rather good, they have a fixed roster and they come home to the loved ones every night.

Yes there are some bad eggs in the basket, but you tell me, which company doesn't have bad eggs?


Rgds,
ATS

[luddite]

It's all very clear in my tiny airline, the pax may not board unless the captain is in the immediate vicinity. Common sense, shirley?

[Halfwayback]

I think you will find that your airline's insurance cover requires a fully constituted crew be onboard when passengers are embarked.

Some will give a dispensation to allow boarding to take place when there is a First Officer who has passed for Command.

Not only is the pilot there to initiate emergency evacuation in the case where he sees the situation about to happen but also to inform the authorities by radio when a cabin crew member initiates an evacuation within their approved criteria.

HWB

[prim737]

We cannot board pax without at least 1 pilot in F/D. Boarding only after OK from F/D. I have worked for several airlines in Scandinavia and this seems to the norm here.

[411A]

Some will give a dispensation to allow boarding to take place when there is a First Officer who has passed for Command.


Many others will have no such requirement.:rolleyes:

[spinnaker]

This thread brings to mind when I was first encountered pax loading/no flight crew.

I had been called out on standby, about 45 mins from the airport I get a phone call:

OPS: Hi, We are just loading the pax, how much fuel do you want.
ME: As the FO is already there, ask him for a provisional figure.
OPS: Err, your FO is also on his way to the airport.
ME: Better ask the guy in charge for the fuel figure then.
OPS: But thats you!
ME: Nope, the guy who authorised the pax boarding is in charge, ask him. I'll look at it in the crew room, with the FO, when we have both seen all the briefings and route. Bye.

Of course this was in the days before we had a proper procedure, even when it was brought in, the Commander still had to be consulted prior to boarding and an engineer had to be present at all times.

[Obie]

Oh! Please!...use some common sense!

What a total waste of space this thread is!

STREWTH!! if you can't work this problem out, none of you posting should be in the aviation industry!

GOD help us all with the current crop of turkeys posing as aviation people!!! :sad::sad::sad::sad:



PS: Because it's unfair of me to treat you like idiots, without giving you a chance to redeem yourselves, let me give you a clue to the answer you seek....

HAVE A LOOK AT THE OPS MANUAL!!!

[Checkboard]

Obie - this thread is about other airline's procedures. (you idiot)

I suspect that a lot of the (pilot) objection simply comes from guys who have only flown for one carrier, only seen one way to skin a cat, and assume that is the only way.

I have seen:

1- Aircraft placed on gate by engineers, with daily inspection complete.
- Crew get to crew room and log on.
- FO proceeds directly to the aircraft, checks the Tech Log, does the walk around, puts on the coffee, calls the engineers back (if needed) and begins to program the FMC etc.
- Cabin crew gather and brief the day, proceed to the aircraft, check the cabin.
- Captain checks wx and NOTAMs, decides the fuel, completes the plan. Last to arrive at aircraft, briefs the Senior and FO, accepts the FO's brief on the aircraft state.
- Show gets on the road.

2- Aircraft placed on gate by engineers, with daily inspection complete.
- Crew get to crew room and log on.
- Cabin crew proceed to aircraft, inspect the cabin, and if necessary board pax.
- Captain and FO check wx, NOTAMs, jointly agree the fuel, proceed to aircraft together, brief the Purser.
- Pilot not flying completes the walkaround, calls the engineers back (if needed)
- Show gets on the road.

3- Aircraft placed on gate by engineers, with daily inspection complete.
- Crew get to crew room and log on.
- Captain and FO find agreement on the fuel, log the plan.
- All of the crew gather and brief.
- All of the crew proceed to the aircraft together.
- Captain required to complete the first walkaround of the day, calls the engineers back (if needed)
- Show gets on the road.

and other minor variations on the theme.

In terms of boarding the passengers before the crew arrive, the cabin crew look after the passenger safety (as always) and are competent to evacuate. The engineers have already performed the daily inspection, so the only added risk is that you lose the liaison between ATC/Emergency Services/Company and the crew on the aircraft.

(For those that don't know, pilots are not generally licensed or considered competent to perform the daily inspection on a Category A aircraft. Category A aircraft are your general jet passenger carriers and similar. Pilot's require specific authorisation (after training) to sign the daily inspection on these, although they can, and do, complete the daily inspection on small training types. The "walkaround" is simply a general look for damage that may have occurred since the last inspection.)

In aviation we work on probability, and off the top of my head, I can only remember two incidents involving aircraft on the ramp. One was the Thai 737 where the centre tank fuel pumps were left running, and the centre tank exploded. The other was a refuelling incident in New Zealand, where a vehicle ran into the ground fuel connection, causing a high pressure geyser of fuel to erupt from the ground point and engulf the right wing, which subsequently ignited. I imagine there must be a couple of others - aircraft dropping on their tail, or bridge problems etc.

All in all, an acceptable risk level, I would think, given all of these events would occur anyway - we are just talking about the added risk of not having a flight crew. A competent management would undertake a risk assessment for any new procedure.

Absent pilots - two fewer lives for the cabin crew to worry about? ;)

[Abusing_the_sky]

PS: Because it's unfair of me to treat you like idiots


Ok Obie, but i think it's fair for me to say:
Obie, you muppet!!!

Rgds,
ATS





PS: if you have something to say, please rise your hand and place it over your mouth

[Obie]

Yeah!...great post from a goose with with a stupid name!!

Another OZ idiot!! :ok:

[42psi]

OK .. now that most of the "sensible" stuff seems to have stopped I have a related question ....


I've noticed first wave dept. a/c having APU started up, heating/lighting on and then left with doors closed and no-one at all on board.

Engineers do the APU start/initiate and then move onto the next a/c. Can be 1hr before anyone returns.

OK no pax involved but are there any safety implications?

[Rainboe]

No problems. The engineers have it. If the APU shuts down or there is a fire, automatic discharge of APU fire extinguisher occurs and external alarms ring.

This thread is extraordinary! Some people can't accept there is more than one way to skin a cat. Why are pilots so conservative and unable to accept another way of doing something? Their way is the only right way!

[411A]

Why are pilots so conservative and unable to accept another way of doing something? Their way is the only right way!

Certainly not all pilots, Rainboe, it is usually those pilots whom have worked for only one carrier, usually (but not always) quite junior folks in the RHS, who simply do not, nor can they fathom, a slightly different way of completing a task.
Shock, horror, they say, but also consider it may well not be their fault...many of these same folks have been trained by staff who simply are not open to other ideas.
I would call these close-minded folks...one airline only know-it-alls.
A breed to be avoided, and often ignored.

[redout]

I boarded an Aer Lingus flight on Monday morning about 6am at Dublin Airport with no flightcrew onboard and just cabin crew whilst refuelling was taking place. Specifically remember this as the cabin crew kept repeating on PA not to fasten seatbelt as the aircraft was currently being refuelled.

[Rainboe]

As it should be! No seat belts until fuelling completed, pairs of doors guarded by the crew at all times, engineers keeping tabs on the plane, flight attendant close access to evacuation alarm. Sounds like they were doing their job well and able to handle any problems until the pilots turned up. Probably saved a significant delay....and the world kept turning! What has this thread gone to 3 pages for?

[airsupport]

As it should be! No seat belts until fuelling completed, pairs of doors guarded by the crew at all times, engineers keeping tabs on the plane, flight attendant close access to evacuation alarm. Sounds like they were doing their job well and able to handle any problems until the pilots turned up. Probably saved a significant delay....

Yes, and as I pointed out earlier on this thread, this was done on a regular basis with no problems at all both here in Australia and right throughout the World with Australian registered Aircraft. :ok:

Obviously some Countries/Airlines must have different ways of doing it.

[42psi]

No problems. The engineers have it. If the APU shuts down or there is a fire, automatic discharge of APU fire extinguisher occurs and external alarms ring.

Thanks for that Rainboe .... the airfield where I am these days keeps complaining about this at safety meetings. My previous experience had been that it was OK but then the engineers were always close by. In this case they can be 1/2 mile away on another pier.





Obviously some Countries/Airlines must have different ways of doing it.


Yep, and sometimes it's folks who don't know better or don't really know what the rules are.

I worked for the shamrock for 17.5 years and from memory the the process for pax boarding without flight deck crew and/or while fuelling with pax on board were clearly laid out.

This didn't prevent some "discussion" from time to time with airports/handling agents who objected.

In some cases the airport had rules about not fuelling with pax boarding without "fire cover" ... sometimes that meant simply alerting the fire service and sometimes a fire vehicle at the a/c. But that could vary day to day when someone not sure would just object (often the handling agent) and say it couldn't be done.

Exactly the same for pax boarding without flight deck crew.

[Checkboard]

Actually, if there is a problem detected in the APU, including a fire detection, the APU will shut down automatically and sound the external alarm, but the fire extinguisher can only be fired manually. Someone has to do that from the external panel or the flight deck - on the Boeings at least.

[42psi]

Actually, if there is a problem detected in the APU, including a fire detection, the APU will shut down automatically and sound the external alarm, but the fire extinguisher can only be fired manually. Someone has to do that from the external panel or the flight deck - on the Boeings at least.



Ah... that's interesting .. the fleet mostly involved is 75's and 320/321's, wonder if the Airbus are fully auto?