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FlyingForFun
2nd Jul 2008, 10:32
Please excuse me in advance for barging into the ATC forum and coming up with the rant which follows. It's not directed at any particular unit or person. I don't know what the solution is, or even if there is a solution, but I'm hoping that by expressing my frustrations on this forum someone will be able to suggest a solution.

My rant relates to the ever increasing difficulty in conducting instrument training.

As a flying instructor, I have only been involved in instrument training for a few years, but in that short time I have noticed that it is getting increasingly difficult to arrange the ATC services necessary to be able to plan a day's schedule, and provide my students with relevant training.
I am used to having to book a training slot for carrying out instrument approaches, whether at my home airfield or away from home. But over the past few years, as regional airports become busier with commercial traffic, more and more airports are imposing restrictions on the times of training (no training during busy hours), the types of training (no procedural training, or procedural training only allowed off-peak), or no training at all. One local airport will allow CAA examiners to carry out instrument training as part of a test, but will not allow instructors to visit the airport for training. Another has increased its charges so much that we avoid training there.

Trying to plan a busy day around these restrictions is becoming a more and more frustrating task.

The reason why I've chosen to rant now, though, is because of two recent developments.

The first is one particular route - an airways route from my home airport to an away airport at which we carry out training. We usually route to this particular airport initially in the FIR, joining the airway a short distance from the airport, because the airspace on the full airways route is particularly busy and not suitable for training students early on in their training (and the CAA examiners also avoid the airways route for tests for the same reason). However, the full airways route has immense training benefits for students in the later stages of their training; in particular, the amount of time spent on radar vectors, rather than own navigation, is much higher than on any other route we do, and this poses additional problems for students which they must learn to deal with. Because of this, I try to expose my students to this route once during their course. However, recently, we have had problems with this route. On one occassion it took well over an hour to get a departure clearance. (The clearance was only forthcoming after a shift change in the tower; when I later spoke to the tower controller about the delay, she told me that she's come on shift, requested our clearance and issued it to us, she didn't know anything about the earlier delay.) On another occassion, the clearance was denied completely. Initially, a clearance through a neigbouring CTA and then below the airway was issued, but then this was retracted and the only clearance available was into the FIR, with the possibility of an onwards clearance later. The onwards clearance was not forthcoming, and the instructor (not me this time) aborted the flight because the routing in the FIR was not what had been briefed to the student, not what the student had planned, and did not have any of the training benefits which had been anticipated from the planned flight. This cost the student a large sum of money for a wasted flight, as well as wasting the student's and the instructor's time. Of course I understand that airspace is busy, but should we not have been issued a slot if it was that busy? Even having had the flight plan rejected, so that we could re-plan, would be better than what my colleague experienced.

The second recent development is a change of procedures at my home airport. Previously, we would often be in the hold at 4000', while IFR departures were stopped at 3000' until identified on radar and clear of us. This seemed to work well for all concerned. But a recent change has meant that commercial IFR departures must not have their climb delayed by training traffic. The result is that a typical flight now results in us getting airborne, taking up the hold, then, half way around the first hold (before the inbound turn and inboud leg, which is where all the real training value is) being vectored out of the hold for a departure. Once the departure is clear, we then return to the hold, only for the same thing to happen again. If this happens, we can be airborne for 20-30 minutes without having completed a single hold, and not having achieved any real training value, except, once again, costing the student a large amount of money. Additionally, the controllers' workload increases due to having to vector us around, and also due to us being in their airspace for a far greater amount of time in order to achieve the same training value.

Like I said, I don't know what the solution is. I understand that commercial traffic has to take priority over training flights, and that regional airports are getting ever busier with more and more commercial traffic. It can even be beneficial to me and my students to have our plans altered slightly by ATC - dealing with change is something students have to learn to do. But the situation for training flights is deteriorating to the point that it is sometimes difficult to do my job at all, so I'd welcome any input on what can be done (by instructors, controllers, management, or to the system as a whole) to improve things. More airports with instrument approaches? More low level airways? A change in priorities???

Finally, by way of contrast (and to show I'm not just a whinging git!) I want to mention Yeovil Westlands, and all three of the Channel Islands airports, all of which are fantastic at facilitating whatever training we need. I'm spending more and more of my time at these places now - although how much benefit students get from doing the same routes over and over again is open to debate!

FFF
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Not Long Now
2nd Jul 2008, 11:23
As you say, "I understand that commercial traffic has to take priority over training flights, and that regional airports are getting ever busier with more and more commercial traffic". Well that's it in a nutshell.

Training flights are category Z, which means they should not delay scheduled/commercial flights. Now we come to the tricky bit, what does delay mean? At one end of the scale, a procedural approach and landing taking perhaps 7 or 8 minutes whilst a commercial flight holds to land after you, I think counts as a delay so shouldn't be. At the other, a commercial flight is held at FL 60 for an extra 10 miles whilst it clears you then climbed, technically you delayed it, but in a meaningful way, probably not.

From an enroute point of view, ie mine, the trouble is for example into Birmingham, commercials are descended to FL80, 10miles in trail and passed to BB APC. If there's a trainer to fit in, at about 100and something knots slower, we have to call BB to coordinate a different level/route etc. Now that might not sound too much, and in most cases isn't a problem, but if you're busy, more and more often, it becomes significant, albeit probably more from a psychological point of having to do something extra rather than just carry on as usual. Also, as far as initial clearances go, the speed is also a problem. eg, get a request for join to go to nearby airfield, think "i'm not busy, that's fine" and issue clearance. Get airborne perhaps up to 10 minutes later, 10 minute flying time to beacon, turn, 7 or 8 minutes to handover to APC and now right in the middle of busy session, "****ing trainer, not doing that again!!"

Solution?
It's very unusual for it to be busy after 11pm or before 6am. Not very social I know, but...

niknak
2nd Jul 2008, 17:14
We try and bend over backwards to assist instrument training, but as Not Long points out, they take a very low priority in life's big picture.

Unless the training a/c is an CAA "Exam" flight test, there's absolutely no reason why commercial traffic should be delayed by training traffic.

Unfortunately there's still an attitude amongst some instructor's that they can try and book training at short notice (sometimes just pitch up without booking), turn up half an hour late, not turn up at all and not bother to tell us, or expect to carry out ILS training when the opposite runway (non ILS) is in use and it's obviously busy.

We've already had to restrict training during the day because of demands by commercial constraints and airspace limitations but you are more than welcome to get up early or stay up late, something which a lot of training organisations seem incapable of doing.

eastern wiseguy
2nd Jul 2008, 17:33
Previously, we would often be in the hold at 4000', while IFR departures were stopped at 3000' until identified on radar and clear of us. This seemed to work well for all concerned. But a recent change has meant that commercial IFR departures must not have their climb delayed by training traffic.


Having been involved in helping to prevent Level busts for the past three years I applaud this.
Stopping departures at levels which they had not planned for is sensible. I am afraid that as has been said your category is Z and if that means you take the hit over paying customers so be it.

FlyingForFun
3rd Jul 2008, 14:47
Not too many workable solutions being presented at the moment. Not Long Now's suggestion that It's very unusual for it to be busy after 11pm or before 6am. Not very social I know, but... unfortunately won't work, because few, if any, of the regional airports near us are open during these hours - and our home base certainly isn't.

Niknak said:Unfortunately there's still an attitude amongst some instructor's that they can try and book training at short notice (sometimes just pitch up without booking), turn up half an hour late, not turn up at all and not bother to tell us, or expect to carry out ILS training when the opposite runway (non ILS) is in use and it's obviously busyI can sympathise with that, and I hope I wouldn't be included in the category of "some instructors". Unfortunately, we are subject to unforseen delays, exactly the same as commercial traffic is, whether it's a tech delay, a delay on a previous flight, or just being stuck at the holding point waiting to get airborne for half an hour or more, and unfortunately there are times when plans change and I do need to book training with less notice than would be ideal, for example when a student fails a test and needs re-training before being re-tested the following day. But when these delays happen, I try to work with the controllers, not against them, and I have to say that all the individuals I work with at my home base (ATC, ATCAs, my own office staff, etc) are as helpful as the system will allow them to be in facilitating delays and changes of plan, but I often get the feeling that I (and those trying to help me) am battling against the system.

Attitudes like:I am afraid that as has been said your category is Z and if that means you take the hit over paying customers so be itI do not find helpful, even if that is factually true. I don't hold anything against Eastern Wiseguy personally for making this statement, because he is working in a system which propogates that sentiment, but whilst everyone is willing to explain to me that I will be delayed, have my plans changed at short notice, or be denied the ability to do my job completely, it seems that no one is interested in finding a solution to the problem.Having been involved in helping to prevent Level busts for the past three years I applaud thisCould it be the case that the inability of training providers to provide training within the system is resulting in pilots who are not getting the standard and consistency of training we would all like? I know I try to give every student the best training I can, but I also have to accept that the difficulties I have obtaining training slots will, on rare occassions, affect my students' progress. We might be Category Z, but it seems to be forgotten that we carry out a very important role in ensuring that future pilots are capable pilots, and we need support in that role!

I also do not believe that the change in procedures which I have described are in any way designed to prevent level busts (although if that is a side effect of them then fair enough), because, although those procedures might result in commercial traffic being given fewer level-offs, they don't apply to training flights (nor, I think, to light GA aircraft not on training flights). It is not uncommon for us to receive an airways clearance at one level (and sometimes that clearance is changed with a different level being issued), then be told prior to departure to stop climb at a different level, and on handover to radar be given a third level, only finally being cleared to the level in our original clearance after two or three frequency changes and intermediate levels. And we manage to do this without an altitude bug!

I am sure this forum is full of people who can explain my delays, but whilst I'm interested in hearing from everyone with anything relevant to say, what I'd really be interested in is solutions!

FFF
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eastern wiseguy
3rd Jul 2008, 17:14
Could it be the case that the inability of training providers to provide training within the system is resulting in pilots who are not getting the standard and consistency of training we would all like


Perhaps. BUT the trail associated with an event is rarely down to one thing. On a day to day operational basis we try to mitigate potentials for problems and sticking a training flight into a hold one thousand above a departure,then, modifying a departure clearance for an outbound is not good.(Rebrief, re program FMC,another couple of holes in the Reason model begin to line up). We work in a safety conscious environment and if one way to assist in acheiving that is to delay you or move you I will.

Sorry if my attitude upsets you but there you are.

potkettleblack
27th Jul 2008, 08:31
Capitalism and beauracy are the culprits if you ask me. The first one is due to silly little men in pin striped suits thinking that their regional airport is going to be the next LHR. Well they will soon be after the colour of your money when the likes of FR pull out over the next few years and clean up a lot of underperforming routes. The second problem is what I call a "UK" issue. Anyone that has done a stint of flying in the US will know what I am on about. Over there it is your god given right (thats why you have an airmans certificate of competency and are not licensed like over here) to go wherever you want unhindered and more than likely with a full ATC service. Hence the LAX VFR corridor as just one example. Touch and go's at major airports are not unheard of out of busy rush hours if you ask nicely. And money doesn't seem to be an issue for the yanks with ILS's just about everywhere. Perhaps we need to start with a clean sheet of paper and rewrite the airways, SIDs and STARs with capacity for training built in.

The only possible solution I see are either to revert back to a situation where you have certain CAA approved training airfields. The fewer the better in my opinion. This will not only drive down costs for the punters but get rid of a number of very average schools as well.

2 sheds
27th Jul 2008, 11:30
On a day to day operational basis we try to mitigate potentials for problems and sticking a training flight into a hold one thousand above a departure,then, modifying a departure clearance for an outbound is not good.(Rebrief, re program FMC, another couple of holes in the Reason model begin to line up). We work in a safety conscious environment and if one way to assist in acheiving that is to delay you or move you I will.


Two points...

Why is the holding pattern in a position where it conflicts with the outbounds? OK, it might be the best compromise, but it is a question worth asking.

If you had several higher priority aircraft in the holding pattern, e.g. with tech problem or awaiting weather improvement, are you seriously going to vector them out of the holding pattern, then back again just in order to give a departure a continuous climb?


I have not seen anything above that does not persuade me that some instrument trainers are not being given the service that they deserve (and are paying for) by some controllers at some unit(s).