Who controls and checks when you update your flying hours?

[liam548]

Sorry if this is in the wrong section and for it possibly being a dumb question but..

I wondered who controls and checks after you update your hours flying. What does the "log" look like and whos to say you cant just add hours if you wanted to. (Not saying I would at all but just would like to know how the system works)

Thanks

Liam

[Gertrude the Wombat]

There are all sorts of crimes you can commit because there is nobody watching you 24/7 to see that you don't, and only a chance of being caught if you lie, eg not paying your taxes honestly, or not always driving at or below the speed limit.

Having said which you can write what you like in your log book - it only becomes a crime if you then use the untrue information for some purpose for which true information is required, such as a licence or rating issue or a job application.

[TheGorrilla]

Done in good faith mostly. Browsed through occasionally by examiners or instructors when doing a test, upgrading a licence (i.e. checked by CAA when unfreezing an ATPL) or by a flying club when renting an aircraft.

If being pedantic it could be checked vs hours in the aircraft log though virtually never is.

[Pilot DAR]

It's much more simple than that! The answer is: THE INSURANCE COMPANY! They check after you bend something, but before they pay! And their adjusters are really good at assuring that EVERYTHING was by the book at the time of the bend, before they pay!

If you're paying for insurance (which you certainly are if you rent) make sure that you will get what you paid for, by being truthful before, and after the claim...

[liam548]

like i said im not prepared to and would never lie. Just wondered how it is checked and by sounds of it it isnt really...

[Pilot DAR]

Yes, it is checked. I've seen the pilot logbooks at the insurance investigator's office more than once.....

[DFC]

Having said which you can write what you like in your log book - it only becomes a crime if you then use the untrue information for some purpose for which true information is required, such as a licence or rating issue or a job application.

Untrue.

If you have a fatal accident, the authoritoes will take your logbook(s) and check them. If you read accident reports they include information on experience gained from logbooks. A few reports contain information that logbooks have for example mistakes in the addition but overall, the accident investigation and as has been said the insurance will be based on a truthfull record of flying time.

Remember always that you only need to retain (or produce) the previous 2 years record. Anything beyond that is almost cast in stone unless you are applying for a licence.

Regards,

DFC

[Monkeeeey]

now if log books got updated anything like the old BP greenshield stamp books...it would be full up already with everyone elses hours and you would be off down to the petrol station to pick up your new toaster. :-)

But like has been said above, its never worth it. Talking to a friend recently who had just sailed through a 1000 hours you could tell that the many log book entries were a great earned achievement.

[S-Works]

It's a bit like cheating at Golf, the only person you are really cheating is yourself. Apart from the fact it is illegal to falsify an entry people should consider the moral implications.

Are there people really so desperate for hours that they would do it? And I am not referring to those who always seem to manage a 15 minute taxi for the logbook on top of the airborne time.

[shortstripper]

I realised a while back that I'd been logging hours incorrectly for years to my disadvantage. I'd always logged take off to landing as that was the way it was done when I used to fly gliders. Without thinking, I just carried this on with my power flying until it was pointed out on my last revalidation flight. It equals about 70hours and I rang the CAA out of interest to check what I could do. They said I could go back and rewrite my entire log if I wanted ... but to be honest, at this stage I just can't see the point. I have the hours I need for most things I might want to do, so why mess up my original? At least I can look back and KNOW it's all true and hard earned. I certainly wouldn't have wanted to cheat the system as the only one you cheat is yourself. I can see the attraction when you start out, but later when your hours build past the various milestones, you'd forever feel a fraud. The other thing is, no matter what hours you have logged, experience shows ... and so does lack of it! :E

SS

[S-Works]

I still log take off to landing as I use the 496 to generate the log. I am not precious about a few minutes of taxi time and I will still pass 3000hrs this year.

[Redbird72]

Even an insurance investigator would only go so far - they will check your logbook against what you have claimed to have on your insurance, but verifying your logbook by comparing to the tech logs of all the acft you have flown? I would imagine that would be very rare unless they smelt a very large rat....

[newstudentneil]

I was thinking about this last night.

After reading what you lot are saying it seems that (if I wanted to) I could put a couple of extra hours in my log book and know one would be none the wiser right?

What about when apply for your PPL? Lets say I've only done 40 hours and I want my licence so badly I scribble the extra 2 on there and then take my check ride and pass.

Would my licence still be issued?

BTW - I would never EVER do this.

[shortstripper]

Your logbook is checked very carefully at initial issue of your PPL. It will probably never be looked at again quite in quite such depth (due to volume) even if you go on to do an ATPL. At such an early stage a rat would smell quite bad! But of course you'd never do such a thing.

SS

[IO540]

I also know of cases (not myself) where HMRC asked for a logbook and then required confirmation from each airport logged, where the pilot was claiming business travel.

This is to be expected - it's the same with cars. Fraudulent business travel claims are very common, and in the worst cases the customer gets contacted to verify the visit. I've had quite a few such requests over the years in my business. Usually they come from the companies for which the sales rep works/worked but in the came of a sole trader / proprietor doing the alleged crookery the check will be done by HMRC.

I have never come across a pilot forging his logbook (would I know??) but when I used to rent the plane out I had a couple of people (instructors!) forging the fuel usage to get a lower invoice, by resetting the FOB setting on the fuel flowmeter. This is a lot worse...

[sternone]

FAA don't need you to log your personal flying hours after your training... imagine that!

[IO540]

I am sure there is no legal need to log a flight in your personal logbook. If you forget to log a flight, that is not a crime.

Lots of "old" pilots can't be bothered to log flights they do.

The incentive to log a flight comes from the need to build certain airborne experience towards certain licenses/ratings. If you are not wishing to (ever) acquire any new licenses/ratings, then there is no need to log anything beyond the minimum required to renew the PPL or whatever.

It is logging flights which you have not done that is dodgy.

Similarly, not logging flights in the maintenance records is dodgy.

FAA don't need you to log your personal flying hours after your training... imagine that!

I think that one comes from the FAA PPL not having a JAA-like min-hours requirement - there is only the BFR which is a flight with an FAA instructor.

You can do the same under JAA. If you have no hours logged over the previous 2 years, you have to fly with a PPL examiner. The end result is the same: no need to log any hours.

[effortless]

I also know of cases (not myself) where HMRC asked for a logbook and then required confirmation from each airport logged, where the pilot was claiming business travel.

I had them look at mine once, but they were more interested in how I could afford it!:uhoh:

[ShyTorque]

I am sure there is no legal need to log a flight in your personal logbook. If you forget to log a flight, that is not a crime.

Eh? My recent copy of CAP 393 (Section 1 Part 4 Pgs 12-13) says this:

Personal flying log book
35 (1) Every member of the flight crew of an aircraft registered in the United Kingdom and every person who engages in flying for the purpose of qualifying for the grant or renewal of a licence under this Order shallkeep a personal flying log book in which the following particulars shall be recorded:
(a) the name and address of the holder of the log book;
(b) particulars of the holder’s licence (if any) to act as a member of the flight crew of an aircraft; and
(c) the name and address of his employer (if any).
(2) Particulars of each flight during which the holder of the log book acted either as a member of the flight crew of an aircraft or for the purpose of qualifying for the grant or renewal of a licence under this Order, as the case may be, shall be recorded in the log book at the end of each flight or as soon thereafter as is reasonably practicable, including:
(a) the date, the places at which the holder embarked on and disembarked from the aircraft and the time spent during the course of a flight when he was acting in either capacity;
(b) the type and registration marks of the aircraft;
(c) the capacity in which the holder acted in flight;
(d) particulars of any special conditions under which the flight was conducted, including night flying and instrument flying; and
(e) particulars of any test or examination undertaken whilst in flight.
(3) For the purposes of this article, a helicopter shall be deemed to be in flight from the moment the helicopter first moves under its own power for the purpose of taking off until the rotors are next stopped.
(4) Particulars of any test or examination undertaken whilst in a flight simulator shall be recorded in the log book, including:
(a) the date of the test or examination;
(b) the type of simulator;
(c) the capacity in which the holder acted; and
(d) the nature of the test or examination.

Compliance with the ANO is a legal requirement, so I would think that the regulations about keeping a personal log book are not "optional".

I don't think this has ever changed under JARs, EASAs, LASORs or Owsyerfathers.

[IO540]

OK, ST, thank you for the reference and you appear to be right.

But, what grounds could the CAA prosecute somebody who flew and didn't log it? You are not obtaining any advantage from this "crime".

[ShyTorque]

But, what grounds could the CAA prosecute somebody who flew and didn't log it? You are not obtaining any advantage from this "crime".

Well, an individual not keeping a true logbook might not be correctly licensed for a particular flight and might be failing to log it for that reason.

For example if you don't renew your licence before the old one has expired the CAA want a shufti of your logbook before they let you buy a new one. :)

[IO540]

an individual not keeping a true logbook might not be correctly licensed for a particular flight and might be failing to log it for that reason

Yes but that's illegal flying. That's completely different from a legal flight which you have not bothered to log.

[airborne_artist]

What about if I land at a private site and then just sit there for an hour with the engine idling and rotors turning?

Just how likely is that?

[ShyTorque]

I0540, Is this a five minute argument or are you going for another 28 pages?

Of course it would be illegal; but how else would the CAA check for legality or not?

I didn't make the rules; I just try hard to comply with them. :)

[IO540]

ShyTorque

Is this a five minute argument or are you going for another 28 pages?

You may have noticed I don't participate in those intractable threads.

[englishal]

I don't think anyone (except Pprune) would give two hoots if someone forgot to log a flight....

Anyway the ANO says:

every person who engages in flying for the purpose of qualifying for the grant or renewal of a licence under this Order shallkeep a personal flying log book in which the following particulars shall be recorded:

Obviously the forgotten flight was not for the purpose of qualifying for the grant or renewal of a licence ;)

[ShyTorque]

Englishal,

Personal flying log book
35 (1) Every member of the flight crew of an aircraft registered in the United Kingdom and every person who engages in flying for the purpose of qualifying for the grant or renewal of a licence under this Order shall keep a personal flying log book in which the following particulars shall be recorded:


You are somehow missing the meaning of the first part of that same sentence.

The second part of the sentence (your quote) goes on further to also include a student pilot (in the broad sense) flying for training purposes in the same aircraft, when applicable.

I don't think anyone (except Pprune) would give two hoots if someone forgot to log a flight....

Not true. The CAA care. I had this explained to me by the CAA at FCL Gatwick when I visited to renew one of my licences. They check an applicant's logbook to ensure there was no flying "in breach", i.e. no flying carried out without the necessary licence being valid. If you don't believe me, telephone FCL and ask!

[Shunter]

I'm aware of a guy who used to take off from his home field, land somewhere about 30mins away, sit there drinking tea for half a day, then head home and pretend he'd done a lengthy local flight!

[TheGorrilla]

Looking at it from a commercial pilots point of view. Max 900 hours per year and 100 hours per 28 days in the UK. This is a legal limit and it is the licence holders responsibility to observe these limits. Recording these hours in a personal logbook is the best way for an individual to keep track of hours flown.

[liam548]

what does the pilots log book look like, any photos?

[Whopity]

Log Book fraud currently costs about £400 a line in the UK Courts and once convicted you could then loose your licence on the basis of being an unsuitable person to hold one.

[IO540]

Log Book fraud currently costs about £400 a line in the UK Courts and once convicted you could then loose your licence on the basis of being an unsuitable person to hold one.

and who is talking about logbook fraud??? :ugh:

No wonder we get threads here running to 100 pages about whether a pilot with 1 leg, wearing pink underpants, standing up in the right hand seat, wearing glasses with a -6.1 correction but with his spare glasses having only a -5.9 correction, flying at 10,010 feet on a QNH of 1014.5 and carrying a portable oxygen kit with a bottle last pressure tested 37 months ago, fitted with a pressure gauge on the bottle itself and with a U.S. 540 thread on top, with his spouse (who is actually married bigamously) in the back seat who owns the plane and rents it to the pilot, with the plane being on the Transport CofA regime but with the engine being 12 years and 1 week since its last overhaul, can legally log the flight.

[ShyTorque]

You may have noticed I don't participate in those intractable threads.

But with regard to your post #34......

Whoa, boy - steady now..... you know it makes sense ;)

[liam548]

If two PPL holder take a plance out for 2 hours who logs the flight as theirs?

Can they have one each if one is in contorl 50% of the time?

Just curious really.. :)

[dublinpilot]

Whoever is the pilot in command of the flight logs the hours...it has nothing to do with who is in control ;)

It's possible to change pilot in command during a flight (assuming both are properly qualified etc). In that case, each pilot logs the part of the flight that they were pilot in command for.

The important thing to remember is that only one of them can be pilot in command at any given time.

dp

[Keef]

OK, ST, thank you for the reference and you appear to be right.

But, what grounds could the CAA prosecute somebody who flew and didn't log it? You are not obtaining any advantage from this "crime".

"Not logging flying hours, in contravention of ANO...."

I can't imagine they would ever bother to prosecute, but then I can't imagine why anyone would want to fly and then not log the hours. You have to fill in the aircraft log, so why not do your flying logbook at the same time?

I don't know how it works these days, but when I got my PPL, the CFI had to check my logbook against the school records (and, I assume, the aircraft logs), then sign and stamp my logbook accordingly. That was a long time ago, and it may be different now. If I'd "added" hours to get to the total for PPL issue, I'm sure he'd have picked it up. As it was, I had to go and do 40 minutes of bimbling around after the GFT to get the minimum hours needed.

[ShyTorque]

but then I can't imagine why anyone would want to fly and then not log the hours.

Because a commercial pilot can obtain remuneration for a job he wasn't qualified for.... :oh: