End of VFR

[noelwj]

Can anyone out there please settle an argument which has arrisen at our flying club. Has the end of VFR time been recently changed from 30 minutes after official sunset to official sunset time? Many thanks. noelwj:confused:

[noelwj]

81 views and still no idea. Come on. surely someone out there must have some idea. noelwj.:confused:

[172driver]

OK, I'll bite at no 82 (or whatever ;) ). The simple answer is - it depends which country you are in. AFAIK the variations go all the way from SR/SS to SR/SS +/- 30 (I think some even go to 45, but not sure here) mins.

[Contacttower]

Unless it has happened since 15th December 2007 (the day I was told by an instructor that sunset+30mins= start of night) then no, it has not changed.

BTW the thread title had me slightly worried for a second...although to be honest I wouldn't be suprised if EASA had mandated all should pilots should hold IRs :E:E.

[englishal]

In the US it is based upon the end of civil twilight. Which just happens to be when the suns disc is a certain number of arc seconds below the horizon....

But to answer your question, yep 30 mins is the UK.

[llanfairpg]

Civil twilight==6 degree above/below horizon. if you do not have a theodolite handy use 30 mins after sunset and 30 minutes before sunrise.

[niknak]

official night is 30 mins after the published sunset time for that airfield.

The vast majority of sunset and sunrise times are published in the UK Air Pilot, Pooleys, Lockyears and also available on - line, if you can't find one for your airfield there'll always be one in the above that's near enough.

[IO540]

I've not heard of a change under CAA rules.

But from vague memory (and without looking it up) the FAA situation has a little gotcha - your 3 takeoffs and landings have to be between ss+1hr and sr-1hr in order to count for passenger carriage in the period ss+30mins to sr-30mins. So the FAA tries to stop pilots maintaining their night currency by doing a few quick circuits before it is properly dark. Hope I got that right.

[rotorcraig]

A quick look on Google located this article (http://www.england-legislation.hmso.gov.uk/si/si2007/uksi_20073467_en_1).

Appears that on 12th December 2007 the Queen ordered that:

“Day” means the time from half an hour before sunrise until half an hour after sunset (both times exclusive), sunset and sunrise being determined at surface level;

RC

[llanfairpg]

duplicate post

[llanfairpg]

Yes if you are very quick in this country you could do a night qualification rating in 30 minute sessions without really ever flying in the dark, dark!

[Spitoon]

What's so difficult about looking it here (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP393corr.pdf).

The answer, at least for NI and the rest of the UK, is ‘Night’ means the time from half an hour after sunset until half an hour before sunrise (both times inclusive), sunset and sunrise being determined at surface level.

Can't see any reason for an argument.

My, I'm feeling grumpy tonight - that's two grumpy posts out of two.

[dublinpilot]

Noelwj,

Perhaps the confusion comes from your location. Your location is given as Northern Ireland.

UK rules according to the posters above is ss+30min.

However I am sure that if you are based in NI, that you often fly into the Republic, and that you come across many pilots based in the Republic. The night rules in the Republic are different.

In the Republic of Ireland, from 1 April to 30 Sept, night starts at ss+30 minutes. From 1 Oct to 31 March, night starts from sunset.

Perhaps that helps clear up the confusion?

dp

[Fg Off Max Stout]

Has the end of VFR time been recently changed from 30 minutes after official sunset to official sunset time?

Just to be pedantic, you can fly VFR at night.

[dublinpilot]

Just to be pedantic, you can fly VFR at night.

Well to be pedantic back, you can't in the UK, nor in the Republic of Ireland. The closest you can get in either country is SVFR.

In the UK you can fly IFR at night in VMC without an IR. In Ireland, you can only fly at night under IFR, which they require you to have an IR for.

dp

[Nipper2]

Er.... Actually I think you will find no VFR at night in the UK. You must fly IFR (R for 'Rules') in VMC (C for 'Conditions') at night. No need for an IR (Instrument rating), you just have to follow the rules...

[ShyTorque]

Just to be pedantic, you can fly VFR at night.

Just to be more pedantic, only if you are military.

However, under the UK ANO, IFR are deemed to be complied with (at or below 3000ft) if an aircraft remains clear of cloud and in sight of the surface.

In effect, the rules allow us to fly "special VFR" at night, although that general term isn't used in the regulations.

(I'll give it no more than a couple of hours before DFC gets involved in this one, it's his favourite bar argument). ;)

[Spitoon]

In effect, the rules allow us to fly "special VFR" at night, although that general term isn't used in the regulations.I'm not sure that I'd go along with that - SVFR is the basis for an ATC clearance under, arguably, a not very well defined set of rules. I would think it's more correct to say that in the UK the IFR allow us to fly visually at night in certain circumstances (and in full compliance with the IFR).

[DFC]

Special VFR is only available in a control zone.

i.e. airspace Class A, B, C, D or E which starts at the surface.

Regards,

DFC

[ShyTorque]

Yes, agreed you don't ask for a clearance in Class G (or need to, there's no-one to ask) but the "let out" clause which allows us to make a "visual contact flight" under IFR in Class G is effectively under exactly the same terms as an SVFR clearance for the other, controlled types of airspace.

Read the words in the ANO and the second paragraph of my previous.

I used the parentheses around my use of the phrase "special VFR" deliberately because it isn't really SVFR.

P.s. Very quick DFC, only twenty nine minutes ;)

[llanfairpg]

SVFR is an exemption from (full) IFR, many years ago it was rumoured it might be changed to SIFR

[mm_flynn]

... the "let out" clause which allows us to make a "visual contact flight" under IFR in Class G is effectively under exactly the same terms as an SVFR clearance ...
I don't think that is quite true SVFR seems to be

PPL - 10 km viz
PPL IMC - 3 km viz
CPL with an IMC - not restricted to 3km or better (and also not restricted to the IMC 1800m)
IR holder- to be where SVFR comes into line with the ISOS part of the UK IFRs, which is equally applicable in or out of controlled airspace and is different than the US 'contact approach' (noted only because of the way it is phrased in the quote above)

[TheOddOne]

...so I'm flying along in Class G at night, maintaining 2,200' (obstruction 1200' within 5 NM so complying with IFR.) I encounter cloud at 2,000', so I descend to 1900' to remain clear of cloud and in sight of the surface. I'm no longer compliant with IFR. Say I have a PPL with night rating, no other ratings.
I don't believe that this flight is now strictly legal.

To remain legal, I'd have to have an IMCr or better and remain at 2,200', but in IMC.

Completely potty, in my view.

(or, I could descend to 1900' and claim that I am descending to land at an aerodrome in accordance with normal aviation practice. Yeah, right)

TheOddOne

[mm_flynn]

...so I'm flying along in Class G at night, maintaining 2,200' (obstruction 1200' within 5 NM so complying with IFR.) I encounter cloud at 2,000', so I descend to 1900' to remain clear of cloud and in sight of the surface. I'm no longer compliant with IFR.
TheOddOne
No, as a PPL you can legal fly IFR (and in some IMC - as in clear of cloud above 3000 feet but not so clear that you meet the VFR cloud clearance requirements, or with just 3 km viz in an area that requires 5 for VMC) - So in your case you just descend to 1900 as proposed, you are clear of cloud, in sight of surface, viz greater than 800m and less than 3000 MSL you ARE complying with the IFRs and so long as the viz is 3km you CAN do this on a UK PPL.

The combination of these rules makes the requirement for night to be IFR for the pilot a silly situation, as you can pretty much fly just as you would in the daytime under VFR (main realistic exception being you actually do need to fly quadrantials above the TA at night, where as for a day VFR pilot it is only recommended. And of course you can not fly in any control areas as a PPL at night.

[llanfairpg]

An old hand many years ago who was actually a bit of a cowboy told me you either fly in it, or out of it but scratching around in the bit in between is where the accidents occur. I have seen his words come true many times over the last 30 years, bibles and fools perhaps, eh?

[IO540]

An old hand many years ago who was actually a bit of a cowboy told me you either fly in it, or out of it but scratching around in the bit in between is where the accidents occur. I have seen his words come true many times over the last 30 years, bibles and fools perhaps, eh?

The "cowboy" was exactly right, in that a flight must be planned as one of the following

1) VFR - in this case you must keep VMC no matter what, and turn back if you can't, or - if you get snookered on all sides by weather - do what is euphemistically called in PPL training as a "precautionary landing"

2) IFR - in this case the flight is planned and navigated as IFR, and if you get a view out of the window, that is a bonus

I have done 2) on every flight (except local sightseeing bimbles with passengers) since the day I got my PPL. It is the best and safest way to fly from A to B. But it needs an instrument qualification and a suitably equipped plane.

The dangerous bit is a flight planned as VFR and then you pop into cloud with no real plan. Climbing is not enough because terrain can rise much faster than you can climb, and a 180 isn't so clever either because the terrain could be anywhere.

[llanfairpg]

The dangerous bit is a flight planned as VFR and then you pop into cloud with no real plan. Climbing is not enough because terrain can rise much faster than you can climb, and a 180 isn't so clever either because the terrain could be anywhere.

And it is this bit that needs the focus of attention in PPL instrument training--not flying a NDB letdown(IMHO)

[TheOddOne]

And it is this bit that needs the focus of attention in PPL instrument training


...quite right and it now does. 1 hour Ex 19 now, all focussed on doing that 180. NO NDB letdowns, no change of level at all.

We also do a bit of VOR work but NOT under the hood, just as an aid to visual navigation, kept completely separate from flight without outside visual reference...

TheOddOne

[Bill.Cumberland]

In the UK you can comply with IFR at night by flying at or below 3000' amsl, remaining clear of cloud, with the surface in sight (new wording as of Mar 07) and in a flight visibility of at least 800m. Fine.

Choice of IFR or VFR -

At night an aircraft shall fly in accordance with the Instrument Flight Rules outside a control zone.

Inside a control zone an aircraft shall fly in accordance with the Instrument Flight Rules unless it is flying on a special VFR flight.

ATCO Question: Is special VFR flight only available to aircraft landing or taking off from an airport in the control zone or is it available to aircraft transitting the zone?

[DFC]

Arriving, departing, transiting or operating within the zone all qualify if you can not comply with the IFR requirements.

Where did you get the 800m visibility from?

Regards,

DFC

[kiwi chick]

"Day" over here is described as:

(1) the beginning of morning civil twilight, which is when the centre
of the rising sun’s disc is 6 degrees below the horizon; and

(2) the end of evening civil twilight, which is when the centre of the
setting sun’s disc is 6 degrees below the horizon:

So.... we can fly VFR without a night rating between Morning Civil Twilight & Evening Civil Twilight.

Having said that, most schools or clubs that I've flown at have an in-house rule about being on the ground 30 mins before ECT and not getting airborne until 30 minutes after MCT.

And Special VFR?

Special VFR flight means a VFR flight cleared by an ATC unit to operate within controlled airspace in meteorological conditions below visual meteorological conditions:

Which here for Airspace is 5km vis, 2km horizontally clear of cloud & 1,000 feet vertically clear of cloud - or 500 feet vertically clear of cloud if inside Control Zone. For Aerodromes is 1500 foot cloud base and 5 km vis.

Special VFR is given ONLY during the day and only to a minimum 600 foot cloud base and 1500 metres vis.

Is is that same over there? :confused:

[DFC]

Special VFR is given ONLY during the day and only to a minimum 600 foot cloud base and 1500 metres vis.

There are differences. One being that contrary to ICAO, the UK does not require all flights to cruise at an absolute minimum of 500ft. That is where the 600ft requirement comes from under your rules and ICAO i.e. if the cloud is less than 600ft then how can you ever cruise at 500ft and not be in the cloud.

The daytime limit is your own local rule.

Regards,

DFC

[Bill.Cumberland]

Hi DFC,

800m is included in Rule 33 (RoA Regulations 2007) and was an addition along with the reversal of "within sight of the surface" to "with the surface in sight" I believe. March 2007.

Your answer to the sVFR Q was always my understanding as well. It has been disputed by an ATCO. I'd like chapter and verse if possible.

Thanks for correcting my "transiting".

Bill.

[Ryan5252]

Time to blow the dust of this thread,

In the nicest possible way...

In the UK you can fly IFR at night in VMC without an IR. In Ireland, you can only fly at night under IFR, which they require you to have an IR for.
Prove it!
May well be that legislation has changed since your post DP but had a 'debate' with an instructor a few weeks back on this and asked him to produce legislation showing that in ROI, in VMC conditions (sight of surface, out of cloud etc etc) at night I cannot fly without an instrument rating.

Im still waiting.

[BackPacker]

Time to blow the dust of this thread,

You shouldn't have bothered.

Irish AIP, ENR 1.2, para 2.8:

2.8. VFR Flights at Night
2.8.1. VFR flights at night operated in a control zone shall be operated as special VFR flights subject to a
clearance from the air traffic control unit responsible for that zone and elsewhere in accordance with the
conditions prescribed by the Authority or, in any other state, the appropriate ATS authority;
2.8.2. Special VFR flights at night authorised in a control zone may only operate to or from aerodromes or
heliports suitably equipped for night operations;
2.8.3. Flights by night outside a control zone shall be operated as IFR flights in accordance with Part IV of the
Rules in this Order unless otherwise prescribed or authorised by the Authority.

[dublinpilot]

And before Ryan & his instructor state that they can fly at night in Ireland under IFR so long as they stay in VMC, this too is prohibited in Ireland.

IAA Personal Licensing Order 2000. The relevant section is S19 (1):
A person shall not act as pilot-in-command of an aircraft or as co-pilot of a multi-pilot aeroplane or helicopter registered in the State under instrument flight rules unless such person holds a valid instrument rating -
(a) issued or validated by the Authority and endorsed in or deemed by the
Authority to be included in the licence held by such person or in the
validation of such licence, as the case may be, and
(b) appropriate to the category, class or type of aircraft flown.

There is a similar paragraph restricting other registrations operating under IFR in Ireland when the pilot does not have an IR.

The leglisative reference for Backpackers post is IAA Rules of the Air Order 2004, section is 38( 8 )(iii).

dp

[BackPacker]

Done & dusted, I'd say.

[david viewing]

I've noticed that the phrase "End of VFR" is more commonly used in the Republic than in the UK. A call to (in the Republic at least) ATC will always yield an "End of VFR" time expressed as an actual time and avoid any of the uncertainties related above. You need PPR for all Irish airfields except perhaps Shannon anyway.

[Ryan5252]

IAA Personal Licensing Order 2000. The relevant section is S19 (1):
and
The leglisative reference for Backpackers post is IAA Rules of the Air Order 2004, section is 38( 8 )(iii).

Much obliged, will put this forward on Saturday and see how get on.

Thanks all for going through the hassle of finding this.:D

[BackPacker]

Took me less than five minutes to open the Irish AIP on the Eurocontrol website and browse the index of the GEN and ENR section. Once you know the structure of the AIP it's not that hard to find this kind of info.

[Jim59]

Back to the original question. Currently in the UK the rule is + or - 30 minutes.

There is a consultation in progress to change the rules of the air to a European standard in December 2012 (European Standardised Rules of the Air or SERA). The draft rules were written by Eurocontrol and attempt to get all of Europe onto ICAO standards with few differences filed. The UK filed a difference on the start and end of night.
It is proposed that all Europe use the start and end of civil twilight as explained in an earlier post.
Does it matter?
No. For the UK in the worst case it makes no difference. In the North of Scotland, in summer, civil twilight is up to an hour before sunrise and an hour after sunset so a much longer legal day.