NATS to provide a London LARS!

[Buster the Bear]

The number of zone infringer's has increased to an unacceptable level, so Farnborough will be providing a 'blanket' London LARS service once they have found enough qualified staff...well so rumour has it?

Now, I wonder who is funding this adventure? It used to be the CAA that provided funds to designated units. This never quite covered the costs of its provision...allegedly?

An 'extra' Radar Information Service might be coming your way soon if you fly close to London? Then again, demand will probably outstrip supply!

So which units have we lost in recentish time that actually provided a LARS around London? Luton, Bedford, Stansted, Dunsfold and probably a few others?

[Defruiter]

It's no longer a rumour - The CAA have approved it

[aluminium persuader]

plus c'est la meme chose.

This LARS stuff's a bit funny. My unit is near London but not a LARS provider, but if an a/c requests a RIS or RAS I will provide the best service I can regardless. Around London, there are already

Farnborough
Thames
Southend
Wattisham
Cambridge
Luton
Northolt
Benson

all with radar, and not counting those units serving the major airfields. Ok, the mil ones may not be available much at weekends, and sure the others may sometimes get busy, but that's EIGHT radar units. If the raison d'etre for publicising a "new LARS" is to reduce CAS infringements then I'm sorry, but this won't help. Radar is available more than it is not, and I have more than a sneaking suspicion that the infringers don't call the existing units and won't be enticed into calling a "new" one.

And I always thought it was the RAF who funded LARS?

:confused::confused::confused:

ap

[Chilli Monster]

No - LARS funding comes from en-route charges, though it passes through one of the military desks in DAP on its way to individual units. The amount paid to units at the moment doesn't quite cover the cost of one ATCO though.

[Diddley Dee]

AP

I'm not sure about "radar being available more than its not" around the peripheries of the LTMA. Most requests I have made / heard for RIS whilst flying in that area fall on deaf ears and result in a FIS being provided due to workload or the unit not being a LARS provider.

Hopefully the provision of LARS in this area will have an impact on reducing CAS infringements.....and give me a better chance of getting a RIS whilst being squeezed under CAS.

DD

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Heathrow SVFR and Thames Radar can also provide such services but the controllers are often busy with their own traffic. During my time at Heathrow I rarely provided such service as I considered my responsibilities inside CAS to be more important. However, on the many occasions when light aircraft pilots needed help I and my colleagues were always glad to assist.

Wattisham near London? I think not. Does Southend have a real radar now? Luton doesn't have radar - it's all in TC now isn't it?? (Sorry but I'm long out of touch).

[aluminium persuader]

HD - I think you'll find that Wattisham cover an area from a bit north of Southend, south of Chelmsford, the whole of the Stansted zone, a bit of the Luton zone, Wyton, Ely, Marham, nearly Norwich and all down the East Anglian coast. I know they do radar handovers to Thames, Southend, Essex, Luton, Cambridge, Lakenheath, Marham and Norwich. Even heard them one night pick up a guy from somewhere near LAM & eventually hand them to Cottesmore. Granted, they're rarely open on a weekend but even so... How much do you want? :ugh:

Luton may be done from TC but it's still Luton. Southend have primary-only but should be getting SSR fairly shortly.

Of course the primary task is always the focus and rightly so, but any spare capacity should be utilised too. Without compromising that task, the best service possible to all comers.


ap

[ATCO17]

Interesting thread this one....I'd have thought that, subject to manning, Northolt would've been the ideal choice for a London LARS unit....After all, they provide services to traffic within a portion of the HRW CTZ as well as transits underneath the northern portion of the LTMA...

A17

[London Mil]

ATCO17, I agree. Especially since they appear to be open more at weekends/nights.

[ATCO17]

LonMil..been keeping you awake at night then?

[BDiONU]

Now, I wonder who is funding this adventure? It used to be the CAA that provided funds to designated units. This never quite covered the costs of its provision...allegedly?
As soon as possible, NATS will provide a LARS to airspace surrounding the Stansted, Luton, Heathrow, Gatwick and London City airports up to Flight level 100, or the base of CAS (controlled airspace). This covers the biggest infringement hotspot area in the South East of England.
"This is great news” said Gretchen Burrett, Director Safety. “Our biggest risk of a mid-air collision is from infringements into controlled airspace. It’s great to see the co-operation and commitment to doing what it takes to stop incidents and protect our skies. This is a major step forward.”
The Board also gave their go-ahead for set up and on-going costs to come directly out of contingency funds, if necessary. “This is a clear demonstration of the Company’s support for improving safety for all airspace users and addressing key risk areas in our own operation” said Ian Hall, Director Operational Performance & NERL.
With the CAA set to mandate the carriage of transponders in the London Terminal Manoeuvring Area (TMA) coupled with the extension of LARS, Controllers will be working in a more known environment which significantly reduces the risk of Serious Safety Events.
“This is an industry leading safety enhancement” said Paul Winstanley, Chair of Prospect ATCOs Branch. “Prospect are committed to improving safety and will be working together closely with NATS to deliver this ambitious change”.
The service will be provided alongside the existing LARS service from Farnborough.

Hot off of the NATS press.

BD

[AlanM]

With the CAA set to mandate the carriage of transponders in the London Terminal Manoeuvring Area (TMA)

Do they mean BELOW the LTMA.....? Thought you needed Mode A at least anyway?!? (failing that - anyway taking a primary only LHR departure through CLN?)

The FL100 in the London area is worrying - the closest Class G FL100 to London is surely Cambridge/Andover/Southampton??

Anyone able to give them some spare squawks?:)

[BEXIL160]

Ahem,
I've asked this elsewhere .... to deafening silence or the sound of shuffling feet.
WHERE are the extra ATCOs coming from to supply this "new" service?
Rgds BEX

[Gonzo]

Bex,

You're obviously not listening to management....all our staffing problems are being solved!

















Aren't they? :confused:

[chevvron]

Right Gonzo, Bexil 160, AlanM, report to Farnborough next monday 7am.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<You're obviously not listening to management....all our staffing problems are being solved!>>

Now there's a thing.... a boss told me that in 1972 and they never were!!

[AlanM]

Hey chevvers - don't drag me into your mess.

Bex - How would us oiks know the answer to that question anyway. (unless you are being rhetoric!)

I am not convinced our leaders do wither..... :{

[Talkdownman]

"Right Gonzo, Bexil 160, AlanM, report to Farnborough next monday 7am"
Line up behind me in the Band 5 Queue.............and can we make it 8? I have my medicine at 7.

[Talkdownman]

"Anyone able to give them some spare squawks?"

Use those which are wasted on FIS traffic.........

[BEXIL160]

AlanM... yes rhetorical.... but yes, I think our leaders have jumped without realising the staffing implications..ooops :uhoh:

Chevvers... right, see you Monday then , I've found me RAE driving licence, so it's through the gate, round the back of A shed, past the library and straight to N1,.... isn't it? No? ;);) You'll have to give me directions then.:confused::confused:



See you :ok:
BEX

[chevvron]

Library demolished 1998; N1 demolished 2003.

[BEXIL160]

GPS it is then.... just need the lat/long. (no need to consult a map.... ye gods! What AM i saying??:uhoh::uhoh:

[AlanM]

Oh Chevvers - you could have least have given the directions in via the Officers Mess, Woppity Way, K Shed tarmac etc etc.......!

Spoilsport.

[chevvron]

You wife obviously hasn't told you the Officers Mess is no more; there's now a 5 storey hotel being built on the site.

[AlanM]

I don't need to get that info from my wife: I have an airside ID still and visit occasionally dear boy. Not only taking piccies for Mercedes-Benz but checking up on you.

Call it on "off watch check" mate.

[chevvron]

Advert for extra staff going in 'Flight' next week.

[lord of the zones]

I thought NATS was very anti open external recruitment
I know a few units have recruited directly (EGPD, EGPF) but have never known NATS to put an ad in for specific positions

Where would this LARS service be based? Farnbrough? or spread round the NATS units round the TMA?

LOTZ

[BDiONU]

Where would this LARS service be based? Farnbrough?
Yup.


BD

[matspart3]

Do any of the instructional staff at CATC remember ATSOCAS?

[BDiONU]

Anyone able to give them some spare squawks?:)
The military have been 'persuaded' to give up 16 they hardly ever use ;)

BD

[BDiONU]

WHERE are the extra ATCOs coming from to supply this "new" service?
One already drafted in, 4 more to come. 3 sectors operating 08-20 UTC Mon-Sun.

BD

[anotherthing]

Do any of the instructional staff at CATC remember ATSOCAS?


Some of the older ex mil ones might just remember it but the others? They may have a grasp on the black and white rules but they certainly do not understand how to exploit said rules to both their and the aircrafts advantage.

Having said that, I think that the guys at Farnborough have more than enough experience and skill to teach it on the job. LARS and ATSOCAS is not difficult per se, though it can be overwhelming on account of sheer number of talking units... the real skill is in integrating LARS traffic, sometimes under a FIS or RIS, with traffic under a RAS being vectored for approach etc.

Good fun, but worth a little bit more credit on the weighting scale.

[BEXIL160]

I asked WHERE are the extra ATCOs coming from to supply this "new" service?

BD replied

One already drafted in, 4 more to come. 3 sectors operating 08-20 UTC Mon-Sun

The question was Where from? not how many?.

BEX

[BDiONU]

The question was Where from? not how many?.
1 currently not in a controlling job in NATS but has a yellow peril, the remaining 4 I'd don't know but the 1 I mentioned was only told yesterday.

BD

[Gonzo]

One already drafted in


You mean that Mobility Clause was used? Can't have that, can we? Did I not read somewhere here recently that it was illegal? :E

[chevvron]

Oh dear BEXIL's getting jealous; one from Cardiff and one from Bristol if you must know; a third is tower only (no APS rating)
Why don't you volunteer Bex? The advert should be in 'Flight' next tuesday.
Anotherthing: at least 4 instructors at the college are ex Farnborough; possibly more but I don't know how many have retired recently.

[BEXIL160]

Why don't you volunteer Bex?]

How do you know I haven't? ;);)

BEX

[AlanM]

How do you know I haven't?

Because you are far too sensible/too expensive to do that!

[whowhenwhy]

well 'anotherthing', FBO have got naff all chance then. Skill at integrating VFR FIS traffic with RAS inbounds - I see precious little of that..

Oh sorry, you meant integrate their traffic and stuff the rest of us didn't you? :E

Apologies to those who do help on a regular basis, I'm sure that you know the others to whom I'm referring :ok:

[chevvron]

It doesn't help when you have stringent noise abatement procedures for arrivals and departures which you can only cancel under pain of death, then someone decides to put a load of temporary helicopter routes in the way without consulting you.

[AlanM]

I though that the Temporary helicopter routes were in the LCTR??

Do you have any of that airspace your control??

(Apart from when you have visual joiners that are not being controlled properly as per last night!!!):D

Do Farnborough traffic always have to come into the zone? Ever thought of not leaving them at 250kts on downwind/base leg? (Yes, it has started to be logged)