EZY to cancel TRSS in the future?

[Caraman]

Good evening,
I got this idea during a flight today... I am to start for eJ in a near future and since I am a turboprop I accepted the TRSS and all "money loan" concerning that issue. :ugh:
Thinking of the market for the pilots, especially in England, it seems that the companys are starting to have some problems in finding pilots. Could this now mean that EZY (and other companys) will have to stop hireing non type rated pilots via a TRSS and start paying for the TR:s? :uhoh:
Any idea anyone? Because this could actually make a big difference in joining a company today and in a year or so... Economically anyway... :confused:
Low and slow

[easyprison]

easyJet got away with rip off scheme like this after 9/11 but now the Pilot market is back on the move, I would be looking else where.

Only sign onto these schemes as last choice...........

[Bad Robot]

I had applied recently, only to be told that due to the "High Calibre of applicants" they could not process my application further"

Which is strange, as many others from my airline who have recently applied have less expreience, hours, types etc, all at least got an interview.

Nothing to do with not ticking the TRSS Box then !

Why would anyone shaft themselves with a 5 year Bond, 5 year reduced salary and no pospect of a Command for 5 years???

If they start taking on Direct Entry Pilots again I may reconsider but at the moment, Thanks but No Thanks.:hmm:

[clearfortheoption]

Hi Bad R, are you 737 or 319 rated?just curious. When did you apply?cheers.

[abracadabra]

There is nothing in the TRSS agreement that I am aware of which prevents getting command within 5 years. (Although DEC's might prevent it!)

With the new pay deal easyjet FO is much more attractive than TP FO, even with the TRSS hanging round your neck.

[Caraman]

Next thing on my mind is the following assumption;

a pilot beginning the TRSS and a year later easyJet decides to cancel the TRSS and starts paying for non-rated pilots their TR.

What about the piltos who just before signed a TRSS? :eek:

:(

[quattro1]

Easy is now taking on people on direct entry saleries.
I know one personally who comes with a turboprop background and less than 1000 hours total.

We are hugely short of FO's with many skippers now flying together.
On DE conditions its a good deal, take home just over £3000.
You'll work hard but hey...you know that!

I'm on the TRSS and do I feel annoyed that someone else with less than a third of my experience is being paid £5000 more than me per annum and bonded for 3 years instead of 5.....hell yes.
Do I have a leg to stand on....No of course not.
They are not a charity and will definatly not give away money if they do not legally need to, to think any other way is niave.

I have a contract between myself only and Easy. I sighned it knowing full well what the deal was at a time when the market was different. a bit like fixing your mortagage rates for five years only to find the interest rates drop...tough!
Its rubbish but its life...there is absolutly no way Easy will ever pay back or change my contract before its 3 more years are up.
Options? Stay and get over it or leave.....
Our choice.

And time to command is not 5 years, Its far less that that.

Quattro

[Doug the Head]

Rumour is the only thing EZY will cancel is flights due to lack of crew... :{ :ugh:

[Pilot Pete]

I'm on the TRSS and do I feel annoyed that someone else with less than a third of my experience is being paid £5000 more than me per annum and bonded for 3 years instead of 5.....hell yes.
Do I have a leg to stand on....No of course not.

I assume you are one of the many who joined BALPA? If I were you I would be quizzing the CC about such issues. If there are enough of you involved (which I suspect there is), then I would think you have a chance of getting the CC on-side pushing the company for a bit more 'fairness' if you all want easy to become a career airline....

Just my thoughts.

PP

[quattro1]

Pilot Pete,

I appreciate what you have said but we have to be realistic.

If we are on minimum rest and call crewing they say "its legal, are you refusing the duty?" There is no such thing as fairness anymore, there is legal and there is illegal. Black and white.

At least you know where you stand I suppose.

There are some good guys but they only have so much influence.

BALPA couldn't manage a career airline pay deal so I fail to see how they will get me and the others out of a legal contract we all signed.
Apparently there are around 300 of us on TRSS.

£5000 x 300= £1,500,000 a year they arn't obliged to pay....dreamworld!

Quattro

[Pilot Pete]

there is legal and there is illegal. Black and white.
At least you know where you stand I suppose. True, but that's the whole point of NEGOTIATING more limiting agreements through your elected CC. You can't negotiate a 'career airline' terms and conditions within a year of all joining together, it takes many years to negotiate better overall terms and conditions, BUT the CC can only negotiate betterment with the support of the members. If the members don't tell the CC what their priorities are the CC can't decide what to push for and when. It's an ongoing process, which I am sure at times will appear frustrating to many of the minority groups within your membership.

All the best.

PP

[fred peck]

Well strictly speaking it's not a bond, it's a loan (kind of).

But it does mean that unlike a bonded pilot, a TRSS pilot can leave anytime and take the loan with them, not paying anything to the company.

Whereas a bonded pilot would in theory have to pay the balance of the bond if leaving before the 3 years of the life of the bond.

[Pilot Pete]

Yeah, but if the bonded pilot stays for the period of the bond they pay nothing. If the TRSS pilot stays for the term of the loan, they pay. I fthey leave before the term of the loan, they pay. That's the difference.

PP

[Firm Touchdown]

Actually, I know one that did many years ago (14 to be precise). He flew for another carrier prior to EZY and was and still is well regarded.

He states that it was money well spent (but a type rating was 50% cheaper back then). I wonder if he would pay for it at today's rates?

[baronrouge]

Gentlemen! It's not quite clear explained on the easy web... can anybody pour some light here? If easyjet hires non type rated pilots with enough jet experience as DEFO or DEC, do they go through TRSS scheme, or just 10% of the basic salary cut applies :confused:

[JVDS]

The salary for SFO's on TRSS is 38019 pounds plus 5000 pounds. So you actually have the same salary as a DESFO but you have 5000 pounds tax free to pay of your loan. On top of this the salary will increase with a further 4% on 01-10-2006.

I don't think this is too bad for a LCC......:ok:

[bloggs2]

JVDS : Kind of but you fall for the same trap as everyone else. Yes you get £38k + £5k, but this is not the same as DE SFO. For the simple fact that they don't then contribute around £5700/year to a loan repayment.

In simple numbers before tax, over the 5 years when compared to a DE SFO who joined on the same day as yourself and remaining a SFO for the 5 years you will be minus approximately (if it takes 2 months training for your base check to happen):

(? say £6000) - 2 months salary from your old job
(? say £6000) - 2 months salary from easyJet (you don't get paid, they do)
£28500 - TRSS loan + interest
£1750 - less in your pension fund (7% x £5000/year)
= approx £42250 less than a DE SFO (and i am sure we found some other little things you don't get but have forgotten)

Effectively you give a working year of your life to easyJet for nothing, zip, nada (ie 1 years salary = approx £42k, or you work 6 years but get paid for 5, and with our roster thats what it feels like). You might get another 4% in October, but the DE SFO also gets 4%, and don't lose your medical or drop dead from the non fatiguing roster cause you guessed it, it is based on your basic salary which again is £5000 less than the DE SFO.

You have to look at the TRSS from every angle to make an informed decision about accepting it. The reason easyJet love it is cause it works in their favour, not because they want to help you out. The secret is to use it for what you want (like they are finding out at the moment) and then bugger off somewhere that suits you better.

baronrouge : depends on what kind of jet. Equivalent B737/A319 then you might get away with it. Smaller than this then probably TRSS. We had MD80 guys that went DE SFO rather than TRSS, however Embraer or CRJ then TRSS. The 90% for 6 months applies regardless of entry method and will apply again on upgrade to Captain.

[abracadabra]

It works in their favour and is also quite clever in it's detail. It confuses a lot of people and would not have the same effect if they simply said:

"All new SFO's will now get £43000, but those without type ratings (or big jet time, possibly) will have to pay for them."

Cause that's what the TRSS scheme basically means.

[quattro1]

The other thing that is very annoying is the fact that they charge 23K for the rating?!!

What do you reckon the going rate for a bulk bought zero flight time bus rating is?
I'd reckon on about ten grand?

This is a big money maker for easy.......

three hundred ish guys on it at prob a 10 grand profit per head?

lovely jubbly!! 3 million smakers!

[abracadabra]

Yup, and how come a non-type-rated pilot with lots of big-jet hours goes direct entry and then only has a £17,000 bond??? Someone still has to pay for the type rating so surely it should be £23,000. (Or, even better, TRSS should be £17,000 ;) )

But not only that. The £23,000 includes a fee for doing the Advanced Handling Course, but not everyone is obliged to do that and they still pay £23,000!

[baronrouge]

baronrouge : depends on what kind of jet. Equivalent B737/A319 then you might get away with it. Smaller than this then probably TRSS. We had MD80 guys that went DE SFO rather than TRSS, however Embraer or CRJ then TRSS. The 90% for 6 months applies regardless of entry method and will apply again on upgrade to Captain.[/quote]

Thanks mate! thanks everybody for the comments... I've got 6t on AVRO/RJ... it's not MD80 yet... anybody avoided TRSS with similar experience???

[quattro1]

BR

I inquired for a friend with 3500tt, about 1500 Bae146 hours and was told only three days ago that he would go on TRSS, and yet I also know a ex Saab 340 chap with 500 hours whose DE with Easy about five months ago.

Dunno whats going on.

Oh look, there goes those goalposts again.........

[teis]

I am the same 700 + hours on RJ100 Total Time of 2500+, just been advised that this is not classified as medium jet....so only TRSS for me...

Have to let it slip in this instance I guess. It would mean I get a airbusrating, bonded for 3 years and less money than I have now...


:D

[Globalwarning]

teis,

You are kidding me? They want you to do trss even though you have multi jet multi crew time??? Not when I signed up three years ago.

No wonder my mates in the LHS are having to fly more often in the RHS!:ugh:

[rhythm method]

Same here I'm afraid...

4700 Hours total, 3000 on BAe146 (1900 of which are command) and I was only offered TRSS. Simply couldn't afford to take up the 'offer'.

Yet we keep hearing how short of F/Os ezy are?

Unfortunately, it's a bit too much of a money-making scam.

[HundredPercentPlease]

rhythm,

How long ago was that?

[teis]

Exactly 24 hours...

[Torycanyon]

A few years back they were taking on 146 Captains as DEC on the 737.
Oh how times have changed. I'm sure they will change yet again, as they have done regarding the "If you have already applied and were unsuccessful, then you are barred from applying again" routine.

If they are as short of guys as you all say they are, then either they have to review their criteria Yet Again or cancel a Sh1t load of flights and start "down sizing".:D

[teis]

The thing is though, I really wanted to work for them. But with this being the only offer I more or less feel betrayed already.

Oh and by the way the Fokker 100 is good enough to enter as DEP, yet the RJ isn't......:{

[rhythm method]

Hundredpercent,

I was offered the position almost exactly a year ago..

...couldn't take the position immediately due to personal circumstances so was put into the hold pool, but now I have decided that it is too much of a pay drop with the added bonus of £23k loans against your name.

If they re-assess their requirements and decide to offer DEP positions, I will re-think my decision.

[JW411]

teis:

More than one of their current TRI/TREs joined easyJet as direct entry captains with only BAe146 experience.

Perhaps your face did not fit?

[teis]

JW411,

Maybe not, but I don't think they have seen my face yet..:8....as I have not been to the selection day....but this is what they offered me before coming to the interview.

In this case I don't even think it's worth going there. Two day selection for nothing, because I can't simply enough afford the offer.

Regards,

Teis.

[Monarch Man]

If Teis is being totally honest, all I can assume is that Easy recruitment doesnt know its a*se from its elbow:ok:

Typical of airline recruitment departments all over really......

Teis apply to www.flymonarch.com, they will take you with that kind of experience:)

[teis]

Filled in the application 2 days ago....hope to hear something soon.

cheers.

[Bad Robot]

I see on Aviation jobs .com that Easy are recruiting 737-300/900 and Airbus DEP's
They still require 500 hrs on type though:confused:

[cartmanfly]

Ah yes the old easy/146/ctc saga crops up again. Total BS. The story supposedly goes that when Debonair went bust, Easy took on a load of ex 146 drivers and supposedly had problems with them therefore every 146 pilot in Europe is crap in the orange and white world of Lootown. Add to that the fact that CTC don't like them either because it didn't have 737 written on the side of it..'so it must be crap' and you have the double whammy. Now mix into that a recruitment department where most think that 146's have 2 props on them and the sun rises in the west and a genuinely misguided belief that people actually want to pay to work for easyjet and what do you get??
Try Titan 737 and 757 (an the odd globespan 76) subs for the summer and 60+ flights a week cancelled.:D
Factor into that the 'acceptable' attrition rate of 10+ pilots a month leaving, not enough trainers to train the recruits and a roster pattern that has left the remaining crews maxed out and you get....orange meltdown:ugh:
Once good outfit, gone bad.:*

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

What you have to remember is that contrary to popular belief, easyJet are not scraping the bottom of the barrel. What they are looking for are experienced 737NG and A320 rated pilots - and they are going to be looking a long time! There is no shortage whatsoever of low-houred frozen ATPLs applying. Regarding the RJ/146, easyJet's experience with pilots from there was not altogether positive (before anyone gets on their high horse - I used to fly the 146). Nonetheless some, but not all, of the people recruited either failed the course completely or struggled greatly. As we all know, it only takes a few to ruin it for everyone.

I would not accept carmanfly's characterisation of the situation of 'orange meltdown' or 'once a good outfit, gone bad'. From where I sit, easyJet is the best it has ever been to work for and I personally am very happy here. There have been some significant management errors in terms of crewing levels that are coming back to bite us in a big way this summer. The subbing-in of Titan, Thomas Cook etc is frankly a disgrace brought about by too lean crewing levels. I fully expect someone at a high level to fall on his sword over this, and if he does not do so some assistance from the CEO may be provided! Nonetheless, from a worker bee's perspective, I have a great job day to day and will gladly take this job any day over many of the other options out there. I still believe that next to BA and Virgin, this is one of the best airlines to work for in the UK.

What we all need to recognise is that pilot recruitment is essentially an issue of supply and demand. The name of the game for any company is to pay the least it can get away with in order to minimise costs. As long as there are sufficient people willing to sign up to TRSS, there will be no change to the policy. You can argue the rights and wrongs of it, but that is nonetheless the harsh reality of the world we live in.

[757manipulator]

Regarding the RJ/146, easyJet's experience with pilots from there was not altogether positive (before anyone gets on their high horse - I used to fly the 146). Nonetheless some, but not all, of the people recruited either failed the course completely or struggled greatly

Norman, your not seriously suggesting that Easy and CTC consider ALL 146 drivers a liability? because a few below standard candidates?

Id be more inclined to believe the (if its not a 737 its crap) argument, as having had a bit to do with CTC, Ive found a certain level of type snobbery to exist
So I guess they are gonna rule out all those Flybe guys who want to move on.

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

757 Manipulator - your post sums up the frustrations of discussions here on PPrune. It is so important to read what is said and not what you think someone might be wanting to say. Nobody, least of all me as a 146-rated pilot, has suggested, either uimplicitly or explicitly, that easyJet and CTC consider 'all 146 drivers as a liability'. For you to suggest that just raises the ante and is a misrepresenation of what I said.

Forgetting easyJet for a moment, my previous company which is a well-respected jet airline, did not regard 146 time as any 'better' than turbine experience and so it would be fair to say that the 146 is at best regarded as a 'halfway house' within the industry. What I said is that a number of 146 pilots, but by no means all, have experienced some difficulty is tranferring to more complex types such as the 737 or Airbus. As a previously contributor has pointed out, in the past easyJet took 146 pilots as DECs but my understanding is that due to some difficulties that arose they will not be doing that now. Many 146 pilots now fly larger and more complex types and so it would clearly be ludicrous to suggest that because you flew this aircraft at some stage in your career, you are de-facto a worse pilot than someone who has not! I think, however, it would be fair to say that most employers would regard certain other jet types (ie BAC 111s, MD80s, Fokker 100s, other Boeing and Airbus types etc) as more akin to the 737/A319, and therefore provide more relevant experience. RJ/146 time tends to be regarded more in the same light as heavy turboprop time.

Incidentally, we already have loads of ex-FlyBe pilots at easyJet who are highly competent individuals. Indeed some of them have subsequently left us and gone on to fly 777s with BA so clearly they are well thought of.

[Jenson Button]

NSF,

If 146 time is regarded as "heavy turbo prop", howcome BA and Virgin are more than happy to take 146 pilots. Couldn't agree more with the CTC snobbery thing. Shirley (sic) it is the recruitment process that should pick out the "decent" candidates. If Easy consult CTC over the recruitment process, then perhaps it will be Boeing driven. Out in the non-aviation world, recruitment does not take the "I drive a bigger car than you" direction. At the end of the day TRSS is purely and simply an accountancy driven fact of aviation life and it stings the potential employee well and truly where it hurts - how does that encourage people to stay at Easy.

If I do have to swallow that bitter pill, I may have to and go the TRSS route. But CANCELLING TRSS would be an extremely good thing for both moral and loyalty and perhaps even safety.

I would though dearly like to know where all that £23,000 goes to. And on top of that where on earth does the cut from the reduced salary go to........

:confused: :confused: :confused:

[757manipulator]

757 Manipulator - your post sums up the frustrations of discussions here on PPrune. It is so important to read what is said and not what you think someone might be wanting to say. Nobody, least of all me as a 146-rated pilot, has suggested, either implicitly or explicitly, that easyJet and CTC consider 'all 146 drivers as a liability'. For you to suggest that just raises the ante and is a misrepresenation of what I said.

Actually NSF, I read very carefully what you had to say...and even thought that what you "were" trying to say was rather well conveyed, which you confirmed with...
and so it would be fair to say that the 146 is at best regarded as a 'halfway house' within the industry

Now don't get me wrong, I wasn't suggesting you consider 146 drivers as having experience little better than T/P time...I was suggesting that Easy and CTC have this view.
Jensen has summed this up quite nicely, as this is clearly snobbery driven by a cash imperative.
My own opinion is unchanged...it does however seem preposterous to think the industry however considers 146 time in the same fashion as T/P time, I would argue that this falls into the catagory of incompetence or stupidity.

[JW411]

The BAe146 DECs that I referred to did not come from Debonair but from another operator.

They had so much trouble learning to fly the 737 that all four of them are currently TRI/TREs with easyJet.

[Nick NOTOC]

Training and or type ratings cost money. Some airlines (the older ones often) pay for the rating and bond you to them (3 to 5 years)
In actual fact this means that they finance and train their pilots. Smaller airlines historically have found that pilots tend to leave well before the end of their bond period. As a result the small airline now had to chase their bond money and on top of that train another pilot. Smaller airlines were becomming pilot training and financing facillities rather then airlines because of this.
So instead you pay for you're rating up front and they will pay this back over some period (3-5 years again) even they will pay some intrest on top. (in other words you may use them as a career step, but pay for that yourself)

Let's look at this from some other perspective as well. If you have flown with an other airline and you are indeed rated on say the A320 or B737, you're marked value has increased and you should be payed extra money for that. I think this is only fair since you may have another bond to pay for.

Selection of new crew has a few purposes, first it is to see if you are the type of person that fit's the profile of the company. Seccond it is to make sure that you can cope with the training standard of the company, so that you do not require extra time of your instructors (read training capacity) in order to make the required level.

Let me be clear I do not like airlines that make money from their pilots in training such as e.g. an ATR operator asking 50.000 euro for a type rating, but I think that marked economy is playing a vital role in our terms and conditions. If this procedure is becomming a system that allows only the "rich" to become a pilot we as a group of pilots should engage in discussions with our airlines and find a solution to this.
As far as I am aware CTC does arrange finance for the training, this finance is provided without considering you're other loans, and EZY/CTC guarentee the pay-back. If EZY terminates your contract at some point (e.g. disciplinairy action) they will even pay the remainder of the loan/bond.

EZY selection and training is the best and most proffesional that I have seen so far, company culture is amongst the best in the industry and for the type of operation it is unbeaten (check ryanair's post's and you'll see)
If you are unhappy about current conditions talk to your CC, base captain or even your CEO (indeed he is approachable) but spreading negativity is by no means a constructive effort to make things better.

regards, Nick

[bloggs2]

Nick : With all due respect, what a load of twaddle!

So instead you pay for you're rating up front and they will pay this back over some period (3-5 years again) even they will pay some intrest on top

Read the contract (oh sorry you probably haven't seen one, if you did you would know), you don't get your money back. Over 5 years the TRSS scheme will cost the employee circa £42k, in other words one years salary. Or, just give us a year of your life for nothing!

Since when has 100+ aircraft been a small airline! EJ needs to start thinking (and acting) like one of the big boys. The only reason EJ is turning into a training airline is because of crappy TRSS/cadet deals, under crewing and slave like rosters that change at the whim of the latest fire fighting scheme from crewing.

Let me be clear I do not like airlines that make money from their pilots in training

So that would include EJ then because that is exactly what they are doing.

If EZY terminates your contract at some point (e.g. disciplinairy action) they will even pay the remainder of the loan/bond.

Says it all really when it comes to your understanding of how these schemes work. Gee, i get a warm fuzzy feeling when i think that if i cock up and get the boot CTC/EZY will come to my rescue and pay the bill. :yuk: You gotta be kidding.

company culture is amongst the best in the industry and for the type of operation it is unbeaten

Oh come on, company culture is so good the cabin crew are in dispute over pay, the pilots are knackered with 5254 and being told it is their fault because they live too far away (where is the orange Fatigue Management Book when you need it) There have been warnings about the lack of crew since the numbers were cut back, the 737 crews have been complaining about noise levels for years and now the company are doing us a favour and finally getting ANR headsets into the flightdeck (nothing to do with a recent change in EU legislation, purely because people are their greatest asset) and the list could go on and on. No one listens. They want short term financial gains, instead of thinking long term. When it comes down to it you are only required for around 5 years, then you become too expensive when compared to a new joiner who does the same job and doesn't know about the crap that has been going on for years with nothing being done about it. Until they have been in for 5 years themselves.

If you are unhappy about current conditions talk to your CC, base captain or even your CEO (indeed he is approachable) but spreading negativity is by no means a constructive effort to make things better

That is about the most reasonable thing you have said. Hang around and gas bag and negotiate only to be ignored. The CEO might be approachable, but has he done anything tangible yet? The inmates are still running the asylum. Wait until people realise that nothing can actually be done about the 'lifestyle' issues at the moment even if there was a will to do so.

The other option of course is leave and get a life. Exactly what more and more people are doing.

[HundredPercentPlease]

Nick, quite incredible. You have absolutely no idea about how the EZY pay-for-your-rating system works. Did you also know that having paid the cash, you then do not get paid for months as a little insult to injury?

Your suggestion to talk to your base captain also amused me, I talked about the TRSS scheme to my base captain - and he thought it was just a bond! He also had no idea how it works.

BTW, I keep hearing two numbers in relation to the number of flights cancelled due to lack of crew - one is 1000 and the other is 2000 (2% of summer flights). NSF et al, is this the way you expect an excellent airline to operate? Which number is correct?

I am still in regular contact with the managers of one of the TP outfits that traditionally supply easyJet with pilots. They are now quite happy - in the past easy took the good guys, now it's only the worrying idiots we are taking.

[Nick NOTOC]

Maybe I have indeed missed something, but please explain how does 23000 become 49000 even when 25000 is being payed back over 5 years?

The thing about not being payed during training, indeed not very nice! A good point to bring across for future TRSS ers.

The Cadet scheme (not getting any pay, except 1000 per month) is a shame! This is again a good point to cover, question is would all EZY pilots be willing to strike over these issues? Since that seems to be the trick that management will listnen to.

With regards to the culture, maybe my perspective is wrong but then again I have not worked at Rolls Royce/Pamper international airlines yet (if it even exists)

Dispute over pay, work roster is obviously present (but what would one expect if negotiations are going on)

The pay in general is not too bad (previous TP job 7 years command) paid less then TRSS SFO at EZY.

Indeed true that the CEO so far has not made any changes, let's wait and see.

Finally anyone that can get a better job elswere would be stupid to stay, but realize that the more that leave the more chance of things getting better.

regards, nick

[bloggs2]

Nick

Maybe I have indeed missed something, but please explain how does 23000 become 49000 even when 25000 is being payed back over 5 years

Go back to the 1st page of this thread and read post #18 (49000 ?)

[Nick NOTOC]

Thanks, I now see where it came from.
As I have said before I think that some reward should be given during training even if it is only enough to cover expences made during the training period.

The gab in pension contribution....yeah well ok it is there but if I was (imagine this) to start at virgin do I get paid pension and full salary from day one? even during training???

As I have stated before I do believe in marked mechanisms dictating our pay rather then what may be fair. Like any business we can and will only be successfull if we dictate our own marked, if we let the airlines dictate our job marked there will be absolutely no change for the better.

Dispite all this I still believe ezy is amongst the best, they seem to be honnestly commited to make it the best workplace in the industry. I rather work hard for an airline that can sell more flights then it can crew then the other way around. I do not like it that while talks are going on between pilot representation ans management some people find it a good moment to slander their (coloured) opinions around.
If managent has made errors causing crew shortage there are two options left: change the manager, or accept thet errors have been made, correct the error and not make it again. The later has my preference (like the ASR system) maybe additional training is at some point required.

regards, Nick

[Pilot Pete]

Some people have become completely taken in by 'the way it is' in aviation. It has only been like this since the lo-cos came along and has only spread in the last 5 years or so. I can't speak for Virgin, but suspect they DO pay and provide pension from Day 1. They certainly do in my airline, Thomsonfly, unless you join through CTC on their 'scheme'. It is not that strange a concept, most industries provide all the benefits from day one of employment. We are not talking joining and then getting the qualifications like an apprenticeship, you already have the qualifications, all you are doing is the 'on the job bit' required to operate for the particular employer. It is not that far fetched to expect full benefits from day one. Unfortunately the industry has moved away from this and is passing on costs to its employees because of supply and demand and may I be so forward as to say 'uninformed' individuals like you Nick. As long as guys like you keep lining up and paying, the companies will keep the schemes in place like TRSS. Once market forces dictate (if they ever do) that demand outstrips supply, then one employer will be first to drop the 'pay for this, that and the other' and perhaps only have you paying for 'this and that' in an attempt to attract staff. When it really swings, then they will go back to bonding (probably by way of a loan that they pay back whilst you remain employed, but in your name) so that if you leave you take the problem of repayment with you.

PP

[orangetree]

You don't get pension from day1 in Virgin but you most certainly get paid. I think the wait for pension is 6 months

[Nick NOTOC]

As long as guys like you keep lining up and paying, the companies will keep the schemes in place like TRSS. Once market forces dictate (if they ever do) that demand outstrips supply, then one employer will be first to drop the 'pay for this, that and the other' and perhaps only have you paying for 'this and that' in an attempt to attract staff. When it really swings, then they will go back to bonding (probably by way of a loan that they pay back whilst you remain employed, but in your name) so that if you leave you take the problem of repayment with you.
PP

What options do we have left? Stay home out of principle, or take the burden and move "forward"?

Bonding by loan in my name....isn't that exactly what is happening at ezy?


Comunism has failed long ago, so have many principles by which business is done. Neither I or any individual can prevent this, wake up and smell reality of today's marked! All we can do is grap an opportunity when it comes along!
Want to change this reality? dream on, but I'm no Gandhi, so I won't join you. (don't have the time for it anyhow as I'm bussy flying)

Nick

[Pilot Pete]

Bonding by loan in my name....isn't that exactly what is happening at ezy?

No. In easy you pay the loan. In what I am talking about the company pays the loan whilst you are emplyed by them. If you leave then you take over responsibility for paying the remainder of the loan. At the same time the company pay you a full salary rather than reduce it to get the cost of the loan back from you (ie you still pay).

I know someone who has been offered a 737 type rating through another lo-co for £25k. I think this is outrageous and anyone who pays that amount is obviously desperate. This from the same training provider that (used to) provide 737 type ratings to individuals for much less than that, but now they see a great way to make more money and are full up with 'corporate' clients and won't provide the type to individuals.

Try working for an employer that pays you from day one, provides the training (or outsources it) and doesn't rip you off for the cost of it, plus pay you nothing or peanuts for as long as they can. It is catch 22 and I sympathize with pilots faced with the difficult choice, but stop being in such a rush to get into a jet and perhaps build some experience elsewhere and then you become more marketable and in the swiftly changing employment conditions we are now seeing it shouldn't be too long before you will be able to join a company without being completely stitched up.

PP

[Caudillo]

Try working for an employer that pays you from day one

Oh, that's what you're supposed to be doing is it? Damn, now you come to mention it, I'm sure that has never dawned on most of us.

but stop being in such a rush to get into a jet and perhaps build some experience elsewhere and then you become more marketable and in the swiftly changing employment conditions we are now seeing it shouldn't be too long before you will be able to join a company without being completely stitched up.

Feels great being able to pontificate from 11 feet (or whut-ever) above the ground doesn't it?

Yes you, stop wanting to fly jets, know your place... climb the ladder.. Yada Yada Yada

[Pilot Pete]

Nothing about knowing your place mate, just an alternative option that everyone keeps bleating isn't there. Or just accept that to get into the right seat of a jet with minimal hours is going to cost you an arm and a leg.......

PP

[Caudillo]

To get into the seat of most aeroplanes doesn't come cheap, sure. To buy a rating in order to get into the right seat of a jet, well yes, now you can start thinking about harvesting organs.

It is indeed an alternative - but compared to paying your way into an airline? Thanks but no thanks. It's unappealing to many - slow, poorly paid and most of all - uncertain.

[Nick NOTOC]

@ pilot Pete

I cannot agree with your view on the ezy TRSS pay/bond scheme for the following reason:
If you are type rated it is only fair that you earn more then you non-rated fellow pilots, so is the case in ezy. To prevent any unfair treatment in actual fact you get your loan payed back which makes the cost of you and your type rated fellows equal.

and to sit and wait for a jet job..... with a few years heavy TP under the belt trying for the few jobs, I think I rather fly jet now than maybe wait one year longer, this way I will earn one more year top income at the end of my career.

Nick,

[PPRuNeUser0178]

God there are a lot of missinformed opinions on here!

Number one TRSS is a LOAN NOT A BOND.

Number two As a TRSS salary is reduced by the same amount - the individual IS paying for the type rating.

Number three - going away and gaining TP experience first does not exempt you from TRSS.

I was a TP skipper before joining EZY and I joined through TRSS, and I took a slight pay CUT to do so.

And to the t*&t who said that being type rated means you should earn more than those who join untype rated, what about the hoards of guys who joined untype rated in the past and enjoyed a straight forward bond and the same salary as their peers for doing the SAME job?

Also, as I joined right at the infancy of TRSS I had guys with similar and LESS experience than me on my course who were direct entry, with a bond and a salary right through their training, all because they were interviewed before me and had their course delayed!

Make no mistake TRSS is a CANCER in this industry, and I am guilty of signing up to it, however in my own defence I joined when jobs were scarse and no one held a gun to my head either, in todays market however I would advise guys to play hard ball at the interview say yes right up to the crunch, then say you are only willing to take direct entry, if they tell you to F*+k O£$ then there will be plenty of other outfits willing to take your cash for a rating right now so no loss!

Right now EZY needs pilots more than they ever have done before, a few more reality checks like empty recruitment days and people refusing TRSS, not to mention the odd TRE resignation and the wheel just might start to turn.

I've made my bed by signing up to TRSS, but no one will cheer louder for new joiners from TP backgrounds who once again get DE rather than TRSS then me!

[Pilot Pete]

Number three - going away and gaining TP experience first does not exempt you from TRSS. True for easy and some other operators, but there are operators out there who offer a better deal than TRSS when you have some two crew experience on something bigger than a piston twin. This would be a positive move for someone anti-TRSS or paying hugely inflated sums for type ratings and would help to hammer another nail into the TRSS coffin.

Everything you have said ezydriver makes complete sense and the younger/ less experienced guys queueing up should listen to those with experience who speak about how things 'really are', as opposed to the tripe that is pedalled about how fair it is for type rated to earn more than non-type rated, different entry salary levels based on previous experience and the company's ability to convince you it is a great offer, the difference between a bond and a loan and a loan that is called a bond with an attached reduced starting salary and any other means of clawing training costs back from employees.

Until people start to view these schemes for what they are (airline cost reduction schemes) and start to realize that it is fast approaching a time when the airlines aren't going to find the required numbers with any relevant experience, then they will continue to pay up and believe that there is no alternative.

Nick, I suggest you pay your £25k, get your jet job and be content with your lot. Don't post on here though in a year or two's time about how unfair it is that you had to pay in some old scheme called a TRSS and new joiners don't have too.

PP

ps Edited to add that under your reasoning Nick, someone with 5,000hrs experience on say a 757 should earn less than someone who joins with 500hrs on a 737? I wager the 5,000hr guy would be a better F/O all other things being equal. Your theory is a can of worms mate.

[HundredPercentPlease]

Trouble is, Nick thinks that you pay the £23,000, and that easy then pay it back over 5 years. Quite a few people think this.

For the record, you pay easy £23,000 and then easy do NOT pay it back. They say they do, at a rate of £5000 a year, but hey ho, they reduce your salary by £5000 a year. So have a think, you pay your money and you get a normal salary, with NO pay back.

NO PAY BACK.

A bond is something you only pay back if you leave. TRSS you pay whether you leave or not. It's bollox. And no pay during training, no expenses and an unknown period between leaving your last job and starting the training (because you have to pass the AHC before they will allocate you a TR course). Don't forget to leave some extra £ for your uniform and other bits, and you'll get your base (mine was abroad for a year) sometime during your TR course. Overall allow £32,000 if you can live on the cheap.

easy have just asked me to sell back my leave because they're so short of pilots. The price I have offered....?




£23,000

[Nick NOTOC]

Ok guy's

I see that no matter what the individual circumstances are TRSS is considered bad by you. To me and many others it doesn't. My net pay as TRSS now is better then it was before, the job gives me more time with the family, the future looks brighter and above all the flying is more fun!

That you get payed less equal the loan return is just a way to avoid being taxed on the loan "re-payment"
I just checked with a few friends who work at major carriers, and they do indeed get payed significantly less in their first years of service, it is called junior salary, no big difference there right.

In principle any scheme where you have to pay to work is bad, but again today's reality is unfortunuatly like this. No lawfirm will hire someone until he/she has at least completed the law degree, no hospital will hire a specialist that has not yet been trained, No taxi company will hire an 18 year old without a drivers licence.....no need to go on I guess..
Market mechanisms may put an end to TRSS (I hope so!!!) If that were to happen I also hope that EZY in all their wisdom and aim to become the best LOCO in the world will see the unfairness it does to it's loyal crew and come up with some form of compensation.

To create a sort of blame culture to anyone that has accepted the TRSS (for whatever reason) is IMHO below the belt. If you want to change the TRSS scheme, go ahead call your CEO tell him what you think, ballot your collegues about it, put BALPA up front on this, whatever but don't insult the TRSS pilots by telling them how stupid they are to accept this deal, when you have accepted the deal your selves as well. Oh, sorry that was another time, that made it all acceptable.......not!

Nick,

[Colonel Klink]

Nick,

I hate to point out the obvious, but if the TRSS scheme is removed, your chances of ANY form of compensation are fairly remote as it goes against everything ezy believes in. The first people they screw are always their hard working pilots and CC.!!!!! You engaged them in a contract, binding on both sides, why would they pay you when they don't have to just because market conditions have changed? The fact that all pilots are leaving, easyJet would rather let everyone go to greener pastures than pay one pence extra. Thats how stupid they are.

[Nick NOTOC]

I agree that they would not pay-off old TRSS if it were to go, however I doubt that they will let TRSS go. The may hire more cadets, because they are easy to get and even cheaper then TRSS.
Let's wait and see

Nick,

[bloggs2]

Nick, you are talking rubbish still. I read your posts and it is like they are written by a couple of different people. Is English your first language? Not having a go, just curious, as you seem to misinterpret what people are saying and if you are TRSS yourself you don't appear to have a grasp of what the contract you signed actually represents.

I am glad you are happy with it as there is nothing worse than feeling you didn't have much of a choice when this deal was first thrown at you. I like many others only found out about it at the interview (it wasn't on the EJ website at the time as it was a new 'thing') and as most things in EJ are it was take it or leave it. I took it and am using it for what it is. I don't complain about it, i don't want the money back if it goes (i'm a big boy i knew what it was when i signed the contract) and the majority of the people on it feel much the same.

What annoys me is the lack of understanding of TRSS (even by those who are on it) and the misrepresentation of it to those thinking about signing up for it. It is not a good deal for anyone but EJ and CTC. £23k for a 737 rating and some food and accommodation! Come on, you could get it for around £12 from other companies at the same time i started. You appear to have a very simplistic outlook on what EJ is all about, you talk about fairness and wisdom with reference to EJ management. Maybe once you have been around a bit longer you will pick up on what it is all really about. The bottom line is far more a driving force than caring about what state of mind the employees of EJ are in.

[Pizzaro]

TRSS will exist as long as there's people willing to pay. The only winners are the airlines. It's a cheap way of getting pilots. I see Thomas Cook have another similar scheme starting with Oxford. Ther must something in it for the airlines!!! Astreus charging for line training, how can they get with this we all ask? Because there is someone willing to pay, we pilots are our own worst enemies!!!

Regards P.

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

I have to say that I feel Nick NOTOC has been somewhat misrepresented. He has stated that he personally is happy with the TRSS deal. However loathesome that may be to readers here, that is notheless his position. I do not see TRSS as the end of the world and as Bloggs2 has said, he cannot complain because he knew what he was signing up to. TRSS is merely a refelection of market forces and you only need to see what is happening with Astraeus, Jet 2, Ryanair etc to realise that easyJet must do the same or they will not be able to compete. Both Ryanair and easyJet are facing a critical shortage of pilots and therefore they are both being forced to offer DEP slots when they would rather use TRSS - once again market forces in operation. Many people are using the LCCs as a stepping stone to 'better things' -whatever that means to each person. For me personally, easyJet has been a great deal, but I would be the first to recognise that it has not been an even playing field - there have inevitably been winners and losers. Incidentally, I am not under any illusion as to the unreasonable nature of most airline managers - they are simply not in the business of being good to their employees. My own view is that being good to your employees makes good business sense but that view is not shared by the people that count!

I personally believe it is completely unreasonable to expect someone who has a solid job offer with a company like easyJet to turn it down to fulfil someone else's altruistic motives or because someone else's conscience is awoken to the apparent injustice of the situation! This is supply and demand - easyJet is offering a deal, and however unpalatable it may be, that is the deal on the table. This is like puting the bell on the cat - there was never any shortage of mice thinking it was a great idea but there was a huge shortage of mice willing to do it. The undoubtedly sincere misgivings of people on this forum about the disgrace of TRSS are not sufficiently great that they themselves will turn down jobs in aviation and go on the dole instead. Nor should we reasonably expect anyone who has a chance to fulfil their life's ambition turn down the opportunity because someone else dislikes the terms and conditions associated with the deal. At the end of the day, this is a matter for personal conscience - I could never blame someone for grasping the opportunity to become a pilot. In all honesty, there is not a single person on this forum complaining about TRSS who is willing to lift a finger to change it. By lifting a finger I am not talking about a few 'wise words' on PPrune - I am talking about genuine personal sacrifice such as a strike. That being the case, there really can be no complaints about someone who accepts the deal when necessity demands it. Whether it is a good deal or not for the industry overall.....well that's another matter!

[abracadabra]

It is obvious that no-TRSS would be better than TRSS.

However, to further illustrate another obvious point, it should also be obvious that TRSS salary versus a turboprop salary which nets you THOUSANDS of pounds a year LESS, is much better.

Yes there are other jet jobs out there, but not all appeal to everyone. And even if they do appeal, you still have to apply, get noticed, then get interviewed etc. before you get an offer. So for some people TRSS will always look better than what they currently have. Sure, you could sit through the charter recruitment 'season' to see if you get anything, and if you don't, wait another year ad infinitum, or you could bite the relatively sweet-tasting TRSS pill and dramatically boost your income.

TRSS: Either you sign up to it or you don't. Whichever you do, I don't understand the cause for complaint. There's no point in signing up to it and then whinging, and there's no point in whinging about it if you would rather sit on the fence and wait for a better job.

To those who dislike people who sign up to the TRSS scheme, think of it this way: At least those 'muppets' who sign up to it are off the job market and not competing for your Thomsonfly/BA or whatever position.

[PPRuNeUser0178]

Abracadbra,

As I allready pointed out, when I left my TP command to join EZY on the TRSS I took a slight pay CUT, and my previous TP employer is far from the best paying in the TP world!

[Pilot Pete]

not competing for your Thomsonfly/BA or whatever position.:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[abracadabra]

ezydriver,

Apologies for any misunderstanding, but I was comparing FO salaries. However, having said that, yours seems to be a common career route, and without commenting on your personal circumstances (as I have no idea what they are), presumably most people who do move from TP CP to TRSS SFO and take a pay cut are doing it because it suits them, personally.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of TRSS. If you could give me a switch to turn it off, I would. If BALPA, of which I am a member, organised a unified worldwide boycott of self-sponsoring type ratings and coordinated with all the other unions, then I'd sign up to it, but what I won't do, and what some seem to be suggesting, is risk the progress of my own career apparently all by myself.