SAS to sack all Longhaul Pilots

[metropolitan60]

SAS Management are trying to split their 3 major Pilot unions by employing the pilots in their respective national company: Norway, Sweden and Denmark.
If they succeed, the Longhaul pilots, who are employed in a separate company directly owned by the SAS group, will be without a Pilots union.
SAS management are then free to sack all Longhaul pilots, and employ cheap labour from Baltic Countries.
Leaders from pilot unions in Air Baltic and Estonian has already got the message that this can be the reality in the near future.

[Tjosan]

As a passenger I don't care who's flying as long as they have
proper licens and proper training. Where they come from is not
important. Since SAS operates within EASA regulations this
is not a problem. Why should pilots from Estonia or any of the
Baltic states be less good than pilots from Scandinavia carrying
the same licens?

[Globalwarning]

Tjosan - As you say market forces, but pilots have every right to fight tooth and nail for their hard won terms and conditions. I feel safety would suffer massively should these types of employment practises be roled out across Europe.

As a young man I was told NEVER to trust a "Swed" in business. Now I can see why- very dirty and unethical indeed; even to their own country men:yuk:

Fellows this is coming to a flight deck near you! Forget flagging out this is the future.

[Tjosan]

The world has changed. With EASA this has changed forever.
I did not make any comments on citizenship, just clarified from
many passengers point of view. We rather arrive than sit and
wait for things that we are not involved in.

Don't disrespect people from other countries, they are as good
anyone else as long as they have the proper rating and the proper training according to JAR and EASA. Wake up rather than make bad comments on
people you don't know.

End of discussion from my point.

[EDDM-Carl]

Hi Tjosan - I believe that proper licences and proper training is of course ok and so it should be, but I as a passenger prefer to fly with a crew that is treated fair and paid fair for the high responsibility they shoulder every day. So it´s also important for which company they fly, a happy pilot or c-crew member is always better than someone who is unhappy with their job situation.

Carl / munich:)

[M609]

The world has changed. With EASA this has changed forever.

I only hope that some Baltic nations fulfill EASA requirements for pilot licences better then they do with the ATCO ones........ :uhoh:

[Warlock2000]

Ever been to Bombay, Beirut or Cairo maybe (to name a few for the purpose of this post)? People driving cars there have licenses but the driving when compared to most of western Europe is atrocious!
Dubai is PERFECT example, super-multicultural environment - take a look at who's driving like a maniac and who's causing the accidents! :eek:

The fact remains that our inherit culture has a direct influence on how we behave under certain circumstances or in certain environments. Be that in a car, or professionally in an aeroplane.

Look around objectively. The truth will set you free!

[Hahn]

As a passenger I prefer pilots which are payed extremly good, so they can care about flying the thing and their mind is not occupied with things like mortages, mobbing, etc. As a commercial pilot I do not see me reaching retirement age however without resigning because terms and conditions will be so bad in the next couple of years, that I prefer to grow vegetables by then! Of cause I will be travelling on terra firma from that moment on.

[Streamline]

I think we should replace all docters with baltic ones. They have a licence and surely are as good as any other or is there a problem.

[LatviaCalling]

Now, this is a tricky one regarding long-haul pilots. First of all, I don't think SAS will can them. Second, if they are looking to fill the slots with Latvians and Estonians, periodically Ryanair run prominent ads in newspapers trying to steal away pilots from airBaltic and Estonian Air. They are suceeding. Just looking at the airBaltic web page today, they are looking for pilots.

Even here things have changed a lot, just listening from the pilot announcements during the flight. Since a couple of years ago, these announcements have become completely incomprehensive in whatever language you are proficient in. What does that tell you?

If this is the idea to take these pilots flying for the airlines in the Baltics (not Latvians, or Latvian-Russians, or Estonians) but that are employed by these airlines from other far flung countries and who have an operating license to fly a B737-500, I have deep concerns that these same people will fill the function of a long-haul pilot on SAS commanding an A340. Who will pay for his upgrade to that particular class of aircraft and who will pay for his language lessons so that the sausages in the rear will feel comfortable on his flight.

[Red Snake]

Contrary to to what this title suggests, I suspect SAS will not sack all their long haul pilots. It would make for a short haul only operation if it did.

If SAS long haul pilots are worried about eroding T&C's, welcome to the club. You're not alone. Too many pilots chasing too few jobs. It's called market conditions and it doesn't matter whether we like or not. It's fact.

[FlyingConsultant]

I think we should replace all docters with baltic ones. They have a licence and surely are as good as any other or is there a problem.
Which is why this is already happening. See for instance here (no time to Google more)
http://www.udel.edu/PR/UDaily/2005/mar/tourism072505.html
For many medical tourists, though, the real attraction is price. The cost of surgery in India, Thailand or South Africa can be one-tenth of what it is in the United States or Western Europe, and sometimes even less. A heart-valve replacement that would cost $200,000 or more in the U.S., for example, goes for $10,000 in India--and that includes round-trip airfare and a brief vacation package. Similarly, a metal-free dental bridge worth $5,500 in the U.S. costs $500 in India, a knee replacement in Thailand with six days of physical therapy costs about one-fifth of what it would in the States, and Lasik eye surgery worth $3,700 in the U.S. is available in many other countries for only $730. Cosmetic surgery savings are even greater: A full facelift that would cost $20,000 in the U.S. runs about $1,250 in South Africa.

there have been cases of botched plastic surgery, particularly from Mexican clinics in the days before anyone figured out what a gold mine cheap, high-quality care could be for the developing countries.
Yet, the hospitals and clinics that cater to the tourist market often are among the best in the world, and many are staffed by physicians trained at major medical centers in the United States and Europe.

[jarlerc]

To all you managers frequenting this forum with wet dreams of replacing expensive labour with cheap labour. Look like we are heading for a world wide pilot shortage again, and when the companies start to cancel due to lack of cocpit crews, their belowed marked bite them in the ass, and a biddingwar for qualified pilots start.
The conflict in SAS is about a management who knows rats ass about running an airline, and even less about beeing leaders and inspirators.
The current management in SAS behaves like thugs, and it will not serve them well in the long run.
As the president of Norwegian, a low cost carrier said the other day.
In our company the employees are managments consern nr 1. If we treat them right, our realationship with our costomers is assured to be good. Happy Employees create happy costomers.
Now there is a boss I would like to work for, as opposed to the Sons of Eric the bloody, with management practises to boot:* :* :* :* :* :*

[BikerMark]

If outsourcing to cheaper labour is meant to so good and fully equivalent to the home grown product, how come we don't see company chief execs and management boards being filled with low cost candidates...
:E

[jarlerc]

That is so true, let´s outsource all the beancounters, and replace them with 2000000 chinese people with abascuses.
That way maybe we can get some peace and quiet to do our jobs:} :} :}

[FlyingConsultant]

That is so true, let´s outsource all the beancounters, and replace them with 2000000 chinese people with abascuses.

This is also happening. My payroll processing is done in India, for example

[Re-Heat]

Tjosan - As you say market forces, but pilots have every right to fight tooth and nail for their hard won terms and conditions. I feel safety would suffer massively should these types of employment practises be roled out across Europe.
So what is your point? That it is unfair, or that Baltic pilots are unsafe?

Get to the point and don't hop between arguments to suit your needs.

The fact remains that our inherit culture has a direct influence on how we behave under certain circumstances or in certain environments. Be that in a car, or professionally in an aeroplane.
What a load of xenophobic rubbish. I wouldn't want to drive in some European countries let alone Bangkok/India.

If you SAS lot can blithly condemn all other cultures through fear of eroded Ts&Cs, then I'm all in favour of them sacking the lot of you.

[Globalwarning]

RE-Heat you really need to read those posts again.

On your profile you state your ambition to become a pilot, as an accountant do you think the sums add up? This is total divide and rule. £ and Euros are on the way down for Pilots across Europe and have been for many a year.:sad:

[Re-Heat]

My career is beside the point. Ts&Cs are not falling due to divide and rule. They are falling as far too many people are training and trained as crew.

The company is exposed to the market at the consumer end, resulting in prices and yields falling, yet their labour supply is sheltered from falling labour prices due to the unionisation.

Why do you think that they want to divide and rule? Because they have to before easyJet, Emirates and Ryanair eat them alive on respective long and shorthaul routes with their lower costs and lack of unions.

If outsourcing to cheaper labour is meant to so good and fully equivalent to the home grown product, how come we don't see company chief execs and management boards being filled with low cost candidates...
Many good quality candidates enter Private Equity areas instead as the remuneration on boards is often inadequate. Explaining perhaps the thieving management rubbish that remain.

[Grunf]

Hmm, what to say about Baltic or any other pilots coming from smaller countries of eastern Europe?

Do they have any long haul experience (757, 767, 777, 747, A330, A340, MD/DC 10,11)? Il 68, 86, 96, Tu 204?

I do not see that.

let's say that it would be understandable (but questionable) to hire them in regionals (see Crossair's experience with Moldavian crews).

I would be very cautious and also as a passenger I would avoid companies hiring them I would approach it the same way as observing airliners sending their a/c for C and D check to a 3. world country. Having a license, as someone nicely said, is not enough.

Otherwise they wouldn't be so cheap, right?

I do recall the same type of a problem with structural engineers (design, stress) hired by Airbus (through a contracting agency) - originating from Romania - who were, let's say, not well versed in English. But they had one advantage: they were ready to work for 50% less then anybody else on the market. Agency was happy, Airbus was (initially) happy. They were suppose to do the analysis and write certification reports.

Result?

Airbus had to rehire a new batch of engineers capable of writing certification reports with appropriate knowledge of English necessary to compile a sane report. What these guys produced was simply crap. Few of them new some English but the agency presented the as fully fluent. Guess how good is that agency's rating between manufacturers now?

I guess this would be a good lesson for SAS or anyone else trying to cut corners. Flying needs experience in the environment meaning appropriate conduct of English, used to long haul flight and not only the willingness to work and eagerness to face the challenge.

Cheers,

[jarlerc]

I just want to go on record saying that no matter where a professional pilot comes from he is probably as qualified as me, I am not putting anybody down. I had the opportunity to speak to a pilot from Moldova recently, he was flying the A320. Seemed to be a very knowlegeable chap. But in his opinion, there were very few pilots in the old soviet block who met western standards of training and knowledge of english.
But as SAS pilots fear the internal competition from their Baltic corporate sister companies, I would not be so scared, as the shortages of pilots increase, and companies like Ryan Air and Easyjet continues to expand. The pilots from these memberstates in the EU will have a big payincrease. As for the pay in the new east european LCC´s it was not that bad 3500 euroes for a first officer considering the cost of living in Poland. And captains made about 8500.
As for Asia, I think that the people there are at least as smart as me, but people with the intelligence and drive to become a pilot simply persue other carieers. So the predicted shortage i 8000 pilots in China, and 5000 in India.
So the only reason that there is a small surplus in Scandinavia is the high rate of pilots pr capita. And the fact that most people preffer to work close to family and friends. But if the conditions becomes to bad, Scandinavian pilots will allso move on. The marked works both ways, and when there is a shortage of something the price goes up. And I think the management team in SAS will learn that in the years to come, their attempt at unionbusting, and warfare against their empoyees is going to be very costly in the long run

[El Oso]

You get what you pay for - simple fact.

Anyone who like me has spent considerable time based in 2nd and 3rd world countries knows - having a licence and a rating does not mean equal skills or attitudes. The accident stats demonstrate that quite clearly, as do the grey hairs on my head! :eek:

I can think of several airlines who though they were smart by hiring "cheap" foreign crews who then had unfortunate experiences soon after and in some cases reverted to their "expensive" first world pilots. For example you might also ask yourself why CX targets expats for pilot recruitment, when they are part of the PRC and half owned by PRC interests? Or why one large Helo operator I know uses Russian machinery but insist upon western pilots? I have seen the reasons why first hand...

Before the desenters scream; of course there are some good pilots from such places. We have some excellent Eastern European and Asian pilots, even TRE's with my employer. But those of us who know them well also know that many are not and in some cases their culture is perhaps not so well oriented to aviation safety as the wests, and they will often volunteer such opinions themselves.

If you've flown with operators based in these areas you wouldn't need to ask... Political correctness is one thing, reality is another. And when I buy a ticket for my family I want to know the guys up front were chosen on their merits - not price! There is a way to ensure this of course - thorough pre-employment screening. If they make the grade in ALL respects and everything checks out - why not?

[VS1711]

It's frustrating to read about another "closed shop" airline's pilots stamping their feet and throwing tantrums when confronted by the pressures of a global market. The one constant in any business is change and the only way to deal with it is to adapt.

You describe your benefits as "Hard Won", which implies that the management wasn't happy to give them up because doing so meant foregoing profit. You won the benefits because the prevaling market conditions meant you were too valuable to risk losing. Now the market has changed, the management is taking back what it gave and for the time being your jobs are too valuable to you and under too much competitive pressure for you to do much about it. It's just business.

In times gone by such things as terms and conditions were better protected by legislative frameworks. Those times ended for most industries a long time ago; the amount of time and money it takes to train pilots shielded you for a while but now you're faced with cheaper competition from guys who are just more hungry than you. Understand this though; while your management might not be faced with competition from cheap MBAs streaming out of the Baltics (they will be, don't doubt that) they are in competition with the locos and anything they can do to lower the cost base isn't about profit any more, it's about survival. They could go on honouring the terms and conditions you fought so hard for right up to the point when the company folds and everyone is out of a job.

The good news is that business is cyclical. There might really be a pilot shortage again one day, in which case you will all fight hard (even the cheap guys threatening your jobs now) and win things back. And because it would take a global pilot shortage to make this happen your managers would pass the cost on to pax without fear of the competition. That's one possibility, and if it happens you can bet they will squeal like pigs about it.

In the meantime by all means keep fighting for your benefits, it would be wrong to give them up too easily, but bear in mind that it was a different business when you won them.

Let the flaming begin:E

[jarlerc]

In the major Scandinavian Carrier, the benefit package are not as generous as some seem to think, espessially when factoring in the high taxation and cost of living in scandinavia. And the unions gave away allmost all of the benefits in 2004. What we are fighting for today is the production, IE the jobs. And there are still no indication that they will go as far as to replace us with cheap labour inside the company. Bit they are transferring routes to other companies they own in Spain, the Baltics and in Finland. So even though we have been giving what they ask for in terms of paycuts and workincreases, they are not holding up their part of the bargain. And the sucsessful network carriers do it very differently. They are merging getting big savings in return. Our company is beeing split into miniairlines, giving way for more CEO´s more CFO´s more cheirmen of the boards. Why because they are to incompetent to run a relativly small airline with 200 aircraft.
Time to put blame where blame is due. SAS pilots work on marked prices. And the management are not able to figure out how to make money. A hint from me, try expanding where there are little competition, namly longhaul

[ironbutt57]

Jeez, sounds like good ALPO slagging off the eastern europe blokes before they did anything, maybe have them join your kiddy klub in advance and support them and their issues, maybe they'll support you in return...

[Ramrise]

Dear VS1711,

Allow me to bring some numbers into the discussion. I completely understand your view and find your contention valid. However, if you look at the airlines expenses as a pie chart you will find that the pilots make up appr. 8% of the total cost in the longhaul segment, and appr. 10-11% in the shorthaul segment. Looking at the situation this way I think that we are competitive with just about anybody. Do we make good money? Yes. And a good pension? Yes. But why don't we cost more then(in relation to other expense groups)??

Well, the structure of SAS is such that the individual companies have to buy their services(handling, technical) from suppliers WITHIN the group. These suppliers are nowhere as cheap as what is available on the free market. We also know that the original SAS(my employer) is charged, depending on the service, sometimes twice the price as say, Spainair or Blue1. This skews the picture and obviously makes us more expensive. So then we have to stop flying certain routes and then we have too many pilots.... You know where this is going!!

We are willing to give to the company. I have almost 9 years here and hope to have about another 15-20. Far longer than the current CEO and all his cronies. I, more than anybody, want to see this company make it. I depend on this company and so does my family. But I will not give up my pay, pension and benefits because we are being bled dry on purpose. By the way, The individual original SAS companies lease their planes from a unit within SAS. The lease prices are so high that we pay more for aircraft leasing than say Easyjet. And their planes are alot newer than ours. Where does the money go?

We will not go quietly.

Regards,

Ramrise

[VS1711]

Ramrise, apologies for sticking my oar in with an incomplete picture. It sounds to me as though SAS management are favouring one group of internal interest groups over another.

The initial post I reacted to looked like the usual knee-jerk reaction to foreign crews and the industry-wide erosion of pilot terms and conditions. Your post illustrates a disparity in the treatment of interest groups (staff versus other stakeholders) on the part of management which is short-sighted to say the least and demostrates a broader understanding of the company's fundamentals. Unfortunately from the way you describe the "pie", management efforts to selectively improve their bad deals don't bode well for the firm as a whole.

[cap10lobo]

Well, lets have a moment of tought..

Obviously not all SAS-pilots agree right? espessially not in Sweden and parts of Norway. If 60 years of happiness brought us to this point, maybe we have to do something else..

The Danish part of the company (not so much the pilots..) has through a number of strikes, almost allways illegal, and threats, created higher wages and benefits for themselves on behalf of the pax, company and colleauges for years now.

I hardly think that the management do this for fun, hopefully they have better things to do, like creating a surplus for once!

Finally I think the longhaul pilots have the least to fear in this battle, without intercont whats left? competition on the european lowcost segment? C-mon:ok:

[Ramrise]

cap10,

You are correct about the disagreement. However, the ones who disagree do so because of a perceived injustice having been done to them. And they have done so for a long time. As of late management has promised these groups this and that IF they will agree to being nationalized. In other words management uses these groups to try to divide the pilots. I don't blame management, but I don't understand why these groups can't see that they are merely being used by very cynical people. These people will not continue to keep favourites, once they get their way they will turn upon the instruments (the groups of people who so willingly serve management) and try to break them. And then THAT will happen because now they have nothing else to hold on to.

With regards to cost levels I will claim that any given employee in denmark costs the company less than any given swedish or norwegian employee. Why?? Social taxes. For any 100 Kr. I cost SAS a norwegian employee costs 120 while the swede costs 140. Hm hm hm... And while I may have slightly higher pay than my swedish and norwegian colleagues, I also suffer under extremely high taxes and cars with a price tag marked up 180%. My pay somewhat reflects the cost of living in denmark. And the same holds for norway and sweden.

VS1711,

no problem at all. SAS has an extremely complex structure, and we have spent a long time trying to see through the fog. This fight is not about money, it is about power. Power to do whatever you wnat with us. Well, we are not going to take it. When they realize that we are not standing in their way the cheap and logical choice will be to work with us, as opposed to against us.


Regards,

Ramrise

[cap10lobo]

Ramrise,

To those sold out by their own union, it is not merely percieved, its verry real!

And you are wrong when you compare costs!

Why just compare the price on a car? Whats next, beer? And what about all danes that do not live in Denmark?(which we believe is a real cause for these illegal actions..) should we pay them less? Or the ones with an old car? ugly wife?

Get real!

[Minda]

I am a pilot in Baltic country and it was just furious reading comparisons of Baltic States to Asian countries or Moldova and calling it third world. Just look at the map and check ho many miles Baltic states are from your home (in Europe) as for Lithuania the country is 800 years old, once it was one of biggest in Europe if you now some history, that’s jus the things which keeps us proud of our nations, and the disrespect which comes from some of you makes me sick. Don’t worry nobody is going to SAS or other companies at the rate you are talking about, because our aviation market is growing at extreme levels, one of the fastest growing in the world about 50% each year, and we (especially me) really don’t want to go anywhere out of our cozy and warm homes to look for "better" life in the west. We are getting very competitive salaries as for living costs hear. And remember that European Union is about free transfer of goods and labor... And if you doubt our professionalism and most commonly relate it to knowledge of English language is just your problem.

Take care

[jarlerc]

Thank you for your post, reminding us that the baltic peoples are northern european in origin, and that as such you are not to be compared with anyone unfavorably. My posts have not been intended to imply that I feel superiour to anyone else, but in the Scandinavian press, and by our management it is implied that we will be replaced by cheaper baltic pilots, and still I am sure that even though your salaries are good in your homecountries, they are lover than in scandinavia. So the management want to transfer production from us to you. And this has happend. Most of the SAS trafic between Scandinavia and the Baltic states are today flown by AirBaltic. And trafic to and from Finland is flown by Blue1. So one of the things we are fighting for is to get the management to respect the contract they have with us.
I am sure that if the management bought a russian airline and started to transfer your airplanes to russia, and lay off you guys you would try to stop it

[Ramrise]

cap10,

As for the feeling of being sold out, I think this comes from expectations that grew when SAS decided to buy other airlines. I am talking about the pay issue brought up by ex SC because of SAS giving ex BU our old payscale. Against the advice of the unions mind you.

I am not wrong when talking about costs. The danish pilots are the cheapest when you look at the total cost to the company. Now, the reason I mentioned a car as an example, is that most families need a car. Whether you live in denmark, norway or sweden. A car is an object which is conveniently used as a reference because of universal appeal. The tax system is another. If we talk about groceries the situation changes. Food in norway is very expensive. On the whole though, I BELIEVE that AVAILABLE income coupled with the TAX systems in the three countries, make denmark the least attractive place to live. I know that by moving to sweden I would POCKET approximately 1200-1400 EUROS more a month. Add to that the lower prices of houses AND cars, and I could save up at least 1000 euros a month. If I moved to norway the picture would look roughly the same, more or less. The reason for the danish pay being higher is obvious. Denmark simply has a higher cost of living than either norway or sweden, when you look at the WHOLE picture. Of course the beer is cheaper is denmark, but I don't drink that much beer:eek: . Seriously, all this is beside the point in the present situation.

We WILL not allow the company to simply run over us in this matter. If we let them do it this time they will do it again, and nothing will be sacred. We have time again stated our willingness to negotiate just about anything, as long as they can point to some sort of reason that they need the money. In this situation the company cannot point to any particular reason they need for us to be employed nationally. Why?? There isn't one. The one thing they do want is for negotiations to take place nationally, with each union negotiating seperately. This is what REALLY matters to the company. And the reason we REALLY don't want it. So,there we are.

cap10, ask yourself why they want it so much. Why are they willing to risk everything for what they claim will not weaken the pilot group at all? Because in the long run we will pay dearly if this happens. You, me and everybody else. The first to go might be the Dash. They now have Cimber in denmark and codeshare with Cityairline in sweden. In norway Wideroe takes care of the regional flying. The fact that Cimber is not particularely cheap doesn't matter for now. The point is that they stand ALONE. And because of that they can be used by management to squeeze us.

Regards,

Ramrise

[411A]

Some very interesting comments here, and indeed it would seem that the SAS longhaul pilots group might have reason to be concerned.
But I wonder, should not some of the SLF on these long haul flights be just slightly concerned as well?
I certainly would be, as I recall just a few short years ago the perfectly serviceable CrossAir Saab340 that departed ZRH, then rolled right over and crashed.
Ask yourself, from just where was the Commander, who couldn't read the flight director?
Sometimes, airlines can be penny wise...and pound foolish.:{

[cap10lobo]

I have done my thinking, and I realized that you and youre fellow danes just act selfishly in this matter (as in every other case..)

Enough is enough.

We will be better of without you, of that I am convinced.

P.S beer is a real cist to me.. but I realize its silly to bring up.. again

[Stuck_in_an_ATR]

To add to Minda's post - we're not going anywhere (at least en-masse), for the reasons he stated. In fact, there is a process opposite to what most of the "westerners" fear. Out of four airlines operating from my country (Poland), two hire mostly foreigners. Not because we lack English, experience, whatsoever - there are a lot of guys that meet or exceed "western" (as some call it) standards. It's because the western Europeans are cheaper! Sounds crazy, doesn't it? However, many experienced "home" pilots lose competition with 200-hr wonderkids from Sweden or Great Britain, simply because they cannot afford to buy a type rating and work for peanuts just to gain experience. Those guys come here, get a few hundred hours being paid cr@p and leave to the west, just to be replaced by newcomers of the same kind... I am not complaining - after all this is what EU is about - anyone may work wherever he wants... I just want to point out that expansion of the EU has created more workplaces for pilots from both sides of the curtain...

Cheers!

P.S. I see some idiots here think they are a better kind, just because they hadn't have Ivan telling them what to do for last 50 years...

[Miraculix]

Very good wind up CAP10 ;)

I think the best way forward for the pilots in the SAS group, is to work together and create one big union. Now there's something that could scare the pants of the management.

But as you all can see, management has been sucsesfull in playing the pilots in the SAS-group out against each other, just see the way Ramrise, Jarlec, CAP10 and all the others are talking to each other!

Gentlemen, the bickering will get you nowhere! Work together instead.

BRGDS from a pilot in the SAS group.

[SpokoKolo]

Stuck_in_an_ATR

I am with you, I can't point your opnion better, some of the boys of the West don't have any respect for us.


SpokoKolo

[Ramrise]

cap10,

Oh no, you are breaking my heart. Say it isn't so!!:{ :{

Good luck to you too.

Regards,

Ramrise

[Techman]

cap10lobo,

Would you be Swedish by any chance?

[Che Xindamail]

As an outsider, I find this thread very interesting from the various political standpoints. One conclusion I draw is that Ramrise is feeding you guys a lot of cr@p. Different pay for the same job, just because you choose to live in an expensive location?

So a BA pilot who chooses to live in Wales should be paid less than a colleague who lives in London? Or an SIA pilot who lives across the bridge in Johor Bahru should be paid less than one living on the Singapore side of the causeway?

If this is the standard viewpoint of Danish pilots towards their Swedish and Norwegian colleagues, maybe it's time for the two latter to "ditch the bitch".

[Ramrise]

Dear Che,

Alot of things are historically determined, among them the way our renumeration system looks. When you have an airline than spans three countries that in it self brings the need for different solutions.

Now, the danish pay may be the highest, higher than the norwegian and the swedish. BUT, the level of renumeration reflects, more or less, the cost of living in each country(we also have three currencies, and what about 'kursreguleringsaftalen' cap10, care to comment?) The standard of living is at least as high in norway and sweden, if not higher. Look at the number of norwegians and swedes who have managed to get based in copenhagen and STILL live in their native countries. That is the best deal of all, somewhat higher pay, much lower taxes, cheaper houses and cars.

The underlying reason is that 'arbejdsgiverafgifter'/social taxes are much higher in norway and sweden. The TOTAL tax level among the three countries is probably more or less the same. However, in denmark I just have to pay more of MY pay towards taxes than they do in norway and sweden. That's just the way it is.

Regards,

Ramrise

[cap10lobo]

Exactly! The danes are acting in their own interest once again. Its just frustrating to have to watch how they view our passengers and company like an instrument to them, they should have been warned well in advance.

I also like to point out once moore, that it is not primarily the danish pilot group that is the big problem, but the cabin and groundcrew unions, that is pulling the company down through VERRY high costs. But when the pilots go on strike this easily, they give a "go signal" for all the other unions unfortunately.
Denmark has extremely liberal rights to go on stike or "union meetings" as they call them:ugh:

When it comes to wages, I tried to point out how ridiculous it is to try to compete with costs. This is an old thing that unions used in the monopoly era, and its not even true anymore.

Also, if you continously try to stab youre friends in the back, they loose their faith in you!

You have to give in order to recieve something!

[Ramrise]

We have gotten off track.

The strike was NOT about money.

The strike was probably a response to the fact that the company has decided to administratively move some pilots from the consortium to the respective national companies. They also want to move the negotiations from the consortium level to the national level. So, instead of negotiating as one, the three unions will have to negotiate seperately. This is, if you ask me, the absolute killer. If this happens we will suffer. Whether you like ot or not, three unions together will always negotiate a better deal, not necessarily the best deal, but a better deal than the alternative. I for one would gladly give up money(it's only money) if it mattered in this situation. But it doesn't, it feels like this is the big fight the company has never picked before.

As to the sacking of all longhaul pilots. Well, not happening initially anyway. Ultimately, of course, the goal is to have four companies and FOUR seniority lists. And no flow(bidding) between the companies. Hiring wil then be straight into longhaul for example. Conversely, layoffs might happen from longhaul only. This is managements dream scenario. Is this what we want for ourselves?

I don't. And I will do what ever I can to prevent it. Our problem internally(union wise) is that smaller groups within the pilotgroup feel wronged by the majority at some point. Maybe they were, maybe they weren't. But whatever YOUR gripe, it will pale in comparison to what lies in store for all of us IF this happens. If, for example, you feel like you have been cheated out of money at some time, well, this is not the way of EVER getting IT. The strength YOU need to secure the best possible conditions will be forever gone if this happens.

Regards,

Ramrise

[cap10lobo]

Is it not true, that a large group of danish pilots live abroad and pay lower taxes of, say 15%. And the moment Denmark becomes its own legal company, they have to pay danish taxes?
A strong lobbygroup that is I say!

The other matter is that many of us think that the danish SAS comunity pray on our customers, thus depriving them on direct routes, through political pressure such as frequent strikes, illegal actions and slow-going. We have grown sick of this for a verry long time now. I think its time to devide the production units or bases now.

It may verry well be that we could do better of together through unity, but then you guys must sit down and discuss what it is all about, and create unity, win-win or whatever.
It all comes down to the bottom line, you must become a lot more humble and start to share..

[jarlerc]

Hello !

What exatly is it the Danish pilots are going to share? We live in 2006 and Copenhagen has the bloodiest competition of any. Newsflash there is open skies in Europe any Airline can fly wereever they want.
And for the last time, this fight is not about money, it is about politics, and about how we are beeing treated by our own managment. So ask yourself this, how many airlines are successful when they are doing warfare against their own employees. In stead of fokusing energy on competingwith external compeditors

[cap10lobo]

I do not agree with you!

SAS is complex in its construction and with too many unions, three countries, different laws and interpretation, government owned, by THREE different ones! its a nightmare to any management.

Througout the decades, unions and employees has created an extremely massive "book of rights", way too massive for 2006 operations!

Some of us has realized just that, and we welcome a change, a clean start, to still have a job with good benefits some years from now.

I think we agree that the pilots probably are the least problem here! But how do you think management could sepatate us from the rest of the company, its simply not possible.

You have to accept that there are a multitude of problems here. I allways welcome a dialogue, but if you retaliate everything with these illegal actions, you look just like the other kastrup-mob!

Sorry!

[jarlerc]

It is my contention that the pilot group in SAS can compete with anyone, in regards to Benefit pacage , productivity and safety. The administration in SAS is quite obviously not able to compete with anybody, mybe we should replace them with a cheaper managment from say the Baltic countries, or even better from India, or China:cool:

[cap10lobo]

Are you competitive?

If youre personal profile is right, you are probably the best paid "propjock" around, by far. On a highly deregulated market with low fares!? ;)

[jarlerc]

Oh well I should have included the personal details then, yes as a propjock I am probably the best paid in the world, and that may need to change, but this is still not a matter of interest really, as we are scandinavians and a little socialistic, my colleges on the blowtorches are among the lowest pay pilots among the European Majors So it equals out. And when factoring in taxation and cost of living it really gets discusting.
And the argument over turpoproppilot salary is really not relevant, as the conflict is not about money at all. It is about politics

[cap10lobo]

..and we know that if the company dont show a surplus, they will sack a couple of hundreds right?

Now, who is at the low end? Q400 guys, right!
Do you actually think SAS can afford to replase you guys with moore of the same kind, just as expensive..

The traditional seniority has become our own enemy. My point is that years of bad managed unions that just pray on the company, may contribute to our own dismissal..

We never contemplated bad times..:{

[jarlerc]

Cap10!
I sometimes argue that the fact that pilots are well paid often meke them see themselves as more in tune with managment than employees, and you seem to be. What it comes down to then is that I identify myself as a production worker who try to sell my skills to the highest bidder, and it seems like a majority of my colleges agree with me. We also agre on that the company under present management is heading in the wrong direction. You have another view, and that is OK. But then you are out of tune by the majority of your colleages in SAS. As for mismanaged unions, most seem to feel that they have been to cooperative the last 3 years. And only now are waking up to the fact that they have been had. And it seems to me that the anger in the pilotgroup is at unpresedented levels. And what do you think of that piece of CRM. I suspect that since you have so much hostility and anger towards the unions in SAS and the aircraft you fly that you are X-Lin. So come and join many of us in the fight to get a new seniority list based on DOE. Get the pilots from BU in and right the wrongs, and present a common front to keep SAS as the network carrier in Northwest Europe.

[cap10lobo]

.. now you are talking! A lot of us has tried to warn about this situation for years now.
The problem is the complete lack of both solidarity and insight in our own shortcomings.

Dont you have a feeling that its a bit too late? And personally I seriously doubt that DPF has the ability to rethink in these matters.

Sad to say..

Then again we cant afford to be so narrowsighted as to think of us as "on the side" compared to other problems.. i.e when we created 5/4 we created a problem for the company. Others wanted the same despite the lack of need! U C?