Lost in Alcohol.....?

[LOC *]

I know this might be a bit of a touchy subject.
However, I feel compelled to ask advise from some of my fellow pilots. I hope you can appreciate me being very honest here.

Doing contract work I find myself 3 out of 4 weeks every month in a hotel room in the middle of nowhere. I read a lot, bring my laptop, have good social contacts and do the odd crossword puzzle, I'm even learning a new language:ok:

Still I find myself drinking 3-4 glasses (very good) whisky every night. Now to be absolutely clear about it, I do NOT drink well before I have to fly. So I can safely say it does not affect my performance. On the other hand I drink more when I don't have to fly the next day:uhoh:

My point is: When do you admit you have a problem and seek some help???

I think I'm not there quite yet, but then again dont we all love that small word called "denial";)

Your thoughts/advise on the subject are greatly appreciated......

LOC *

[Loose rivets]

LOC*, well done, you have passed the first stage of stabilizing what might become a career, or even a life threatening situation.

First and foremost, you should try to stop all intake of alcohol for a short trial period; just to see if you can. Your studies could be the way to take your mind off the problem.

As a young first officer, I flew with people that drank so much that they had become literally psychotic. A double miniature during the taxi in, was just the beginning of their evening's session. Somehow they fooled the management...for a while.

It caused me to storm out of a top job because my fleet manager was the one in denial, not the sick captain. It was a terrible situation that I hope can not happen these days. Not to the same extent anyway.

When I became a captain, I was able to get a flowing supply of whisky due to some strange set of circumstances. After duty, I would look forward to a tipple. Before long, that became a serious proportion of whisky v lemonade. It was a good method of winding down, but I noticed that I never felt quite well while this was going on. I knew that it had to stop.

One of the people that I love to read about is Richard Feynman, and I say about, because reading his science is a given if you want to understand certain aspects of physics. While working during a sabbatical, he noticed that he was really looking forward to getting to the bar each evening; indeed, early evening. He is quoted as saying, "I like to think...." and words to the effect that it was certain that this increased level of drinking would impair his mental abilities...Permanently.

I like a drink, but there is one certain method of not letting this take you down the dark corridor.

Plan a precise amount for a given situation, be it a wild party or the lonely hotel room that we are all too familiar with.

Strangely the party is the least dangerous, the odd binge seems to give some kind of release. No, it's the bottle of good malt, or even an hundred-proof, sitting beside you in the hotel room that is the danger. It's strange how quickly that bottle seems to empty after a while.

A precise measure for the evening is the only way, and if you exceed that amount, quit for say, a week. Too tough? You should read my seven pages of flight report on a life changing trip to Rome. Nothing, and I mean nothing, that I have ever read on pprune comes close to what happened to me that day. The man was deranged even when (fairly ) sober. it was almost certainly due to alcohol.

In the old medical establishment on Praed St sp? was a coffee table with a glass top. Under the glass was an assortment of pictures of pilot's brains. They showed various stages of damage due to drinking. Even the unskilled eye could see the difference...it was frightening.

Well, I'm sure that I've made my point, now it's your call. Good luck.

[got caught]

My point is: When do you admit you have a problem and seek some help???

when you drink more than your doc !:cool:

All joking apart, the "official line" from the (UK) Department of Health, suggests 21 units/ week as a sensible limit.

We are trained to look for certain "cues" which suggest a patient is drinking too much: these incude feelings of gulit following a session,. annoyance when people criticise your drinking pattern, and the need for an "eye opener" to boost start the day.

Any, or multiple, cues suggest a problem could be iniment.

[Flyin'Dutch']

Have a go at the Michigan Alcohol Screening Test (http://alcoholism.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?zi=1/XJ&sdn=alcoholism&zu=http%3A%2F%2Fwebpages.charter.net%2Frfhale%2Fmasttest.htm )

That will give you a good indication on what your state of play is.

Remember that the problem is not only confined to the effects of the alcohol itself (intoxication, lack of judgment etc) but also spreads itself across the rest of life with craving for the stuff when sober, irritability when sober etc.

[Old Smokey]

A refreshingly honest post LOC*, recognition of an actual or potential problem is indicative that your personal control of the situation is well in hand.

May I suggest, try going 'dry' for a week or two, and see if you notice any significant (other than habitual) changes within yourself. If you feel irritable, lousy, craving for a 'shot', then yep, get some help. If not, then you probably don't have a problem.

I've always used diazapem for 'forced' sleep when necessary (oh boy, Loose Rivets will have something to say about this), but always worried that it might become habit forming outside the 'forced sleep' requirement. Total abstinance for a month showed nil side effects, so there was no problem, but, if there had been any ill effects of my withdrawl, then I would have been obliged to do something about it.

I think that you have your problem half way solved already.

Regards,

Old Smokey

[Hawk]

"Coming off benzodiazepine tranquillisers or sleeping pills.

Warning: “Cold turkey” withdrawal (stopping benzodiazepines completely all at once) is strongly advised against. It is possible to have a withdrawal seizure or fit as a result of “cold turkey”. Stopping all at once often means the person can be overwhelmed with severe withdrawal symptoms. As the pain and distress is unbearable, the person will usually start taking benzodiazepines again, which can result in a sense of failure, or a fear of going through withdrawal again.

It is recommended that people taking benzodiazepines who wish to come off the drugs reduce the dose by small amounts rather than stopping completely even after only a few weeks of benzodiazepine use.

A slow reduction program from the drugs allows the body and mind to slowly adjust to each level and gradually return to normal functioning".

http://www.tranx.org.au/benzodiaz.html

[Old Smokey]

Thanks for that Hawk. Would 5 to 10 Mg about once a month be considered to be within the 'risk zone'?

Regards,

Old Smokey

[Non Normal]

Old Smokey,

5 - 10 mg of diazepam per month (that's only 1-2 5 mg tablets per month, or 2.5-5 2 mg tablets per month) is not considered to be within the "risk zone" for withdrawal symptoms or dependency.

But if you're taking diazepam for when you have to sleep, you might like to consider shorter acting alternatives like tamazepam or non-benzodiadepine hypnotics like zolpidem or zopiclone?

[Flyin'Dutch']

Old Smokey,

The notion that someone has a handle on their addiction if they can abstain for a short period of time is not founded on any scientific basis and is a tactic often deployed by people with dependency problems.

Diazepam is not good for solving sleeping problems and has in common with all other benzodiazepines that they are highly addictive, both psychological and physical.

Zopiclone is better but by no means non-addictive either.

These drugs were initially hailed as being brilliant but as so often when used in the general population proved to have addictive propensities too.

People best check any medication they take against what is allowed by their regulatory authority. All Benzos are forbidden by the FAA.

[niknak]

Have a quiet word with your GP and take it from there.

[Mac the Knife]

Niknak - Having had the unpleasant experience of living with an alcoholic, I can promise you that very few GPs know enough about alcoholism to be of much use.

Psychiatrists are rarely better informed and the average manipulative alcoholic can fool them for a long time, as I discovered.

The only people they can't fool are alcos in recovery 'cos they 've "been there, done that and got the T-shirt"!

Alcoholics Anonymous and Al-Anon (for the families and friends of victims) are the only people who really seem to understand the illness properly and give good advice.

The alco I lived with has now been sober (and happy) in recovery for more than ten years.

[Flyin'Dutch']

Of course.

:bored:

The problem is that alcoholics and a lot of their close relations expect a magic wand to be waved at the patient.

The resolution however has to come from within.

[LOC *]

Thanks for all the advise,

Altough not scientifically proven ;) I do plan to stop drinking fo a while.
I don't really expect to have problems with that but wonder if I get cranky or get affected in any other way. Just had to wait till after newyear for obvious reasons :ok:

Will let you know how it goes in due time.

Again thanks for the advise and wish you all a happy and healthy 2006

[ToPocHi]

I worked a job for 16 years where it was considered unsociable if you didnt go to the bar every night and drink your self stupid.
Ahhh yes, relating to that quotation, it would seem that from hearsay (or more likely a given fact), it becomes somewhat a prerequisite for commercial airline pilots to drink/indulge into alcoholic beverages; otherwise, you wouldn't be a certified aviator or so they claim! I'm still a cadet and I've been getting news that once a cadet graduates, joins as a junior F/O, he/she would indefinitely be required to join the crew after every flight for a 'social session'. I'm a teetotaller and I'd like to remain that way, I've had very bad childhood experiences thanks to that 'wicked substance' (no offense intended for fellow drinkers). Is it really true that there's no escaping these 'sessions'?

LOC: All the best in your effort to abstaining from the very likes of alcohol. I'm sorry for not being able to give you any advice regarding the matter. I have no experience in this matter or whatsoever. Perhaps picking up a new hobby would help? Well, personally I think you're already on the right track. You'll do fine, sir.

[brianh]

LOC

I'll give you a slightly different perspective, having also found that solo in motel/hotel rooms is an incentive to consume alcohol.

I have gone into abstinence for a month or more several times when I felt I was over imbibing, and I have also known several alcoholics and seen the effect on their lives, marriages, and health.

However, it was 43 deg C here last Saturday and I enjoyed several beers at the end of the work day.

All things in moderation - same applies to alcohol. Plus over here they are dynamite on drink driving and I need my licence.

My aim is to limit the number of tipples per occasion, and the number of occasions. Saturday night is a "legitimate" beer o'clock as it is when we congregate.

As a control mechanism I keep an annual calendar (half page size) and monitor weekly my success rate in terms of percentage of days free of alcohol. I believe that is an excellent starting point.

I do not intend going cold turkey and I have the greatest respect for the willpower of those who do. But, if you find that is too severe an immediate step for you, try the calendar control method. Also, one alcohol, one water is a neat way of containing the alcohol intake in a sitting - and preventing the alcohol induced dehydration that can catch up next day.

[QDMQDMQDM]

"I can promise you that very few GPs know enough about [insert any noun here] to be of much use..."

Mac the Knife,

Spoken like a true surgeon!

:)

QDM

[got caught]

Go to your gp and ask for a liver function blood test.

Don't forget to ask for a full blood count, as our gastroenterological colleagues now seem to think that this can be more revealling.

Shame to hear our secondary care colleagues knocking primary care. But what do you expect from someone who gets 90% of the resources and does 10% of the work

[Flyin'Dutch']

Friends, no need for intraprofessional bitching,

We're supposed to be a closed shop, or so we should believe.

Bloodtests, although necessary and helpful at times will only start to become deranged when a lot of damage has already been done.

On the other hand they can give false reassurances about people's drinking behaviour.

[QDMQDMQDM]

"Friends, no need for intraprofessional bitching,"

Please, FD. It is hard to break the habits of a professional lifetime.

[min]

lol re the 'intraprofessional bitching' :)

Back to the topic at hand....

M.

[LOC *]

7 days in my "trial" so far no urges, gravings or moodswings. Have had litle trouble with replacing my daily shot(s) for a cup of tea.
Only thing I experienced is that I now find it hard to fall asleep without the usual nightcap.

I'll see how it goes, not to keen to try out any sedatives. Could be a matter of getting used to:confused: :confused:

kissmysquirrel best of luck (stop counting;) ), brianh I like your calendar idea.

[brianh]

LOC

Well done, I cannot in the circumstances offer you a cyber-beer!

The calendar is good because it is a daily reminder and an ongoing check that can be managed for those who want to average a certain number of AFD per week.

Sleep - there are some terrible herbal teas around and some rippers. I settled on (from USA) Celestial Seasons Sleepytime. First because it helps and second because it tastes and smells good. I have become addicted to it but at least no calendar needed re that. Try a herbal tea before bed.

[RaTa]

That is good news LOC*

I'm off the booze for the month of January.........just trying to have a healthy month which I do a couple of times a year.
So far so good. The no drinking at home is not a problem, but when on a trip and the boys are enjoying themselves in a bar, that is another matter. It can be hard trying to laugh at their jokes or at times even understand what they're talking about!

[LOC *]

Back after 4 days from hell, gues we've all been there one time or another. Everybody from the ground handler to ATC seems to work against you. I know it comes with the job. Waiting 50 minutes with temp. -3 for transport back to the hotel at 01.00 am. Getting back I just could not get myself to get a cup of tea and went for 18 year old single malt instead and DAMN it felt good.

Still feel gutted though, so far for the "trial" period.

Can I excuse this to myself just because I had a bad few days??
Isn't that just the point of the whole "trial" in the first place??
I can do without it for a few days but when the sh*t hits the fence.....

Going for another couple of days tomorrow. After that hopefully a week back with the missus and maybe a visit to my gp???
Still in doubt, I really deserved that shot......right????:uhoh:
Anyway, thanks for the support. I would've loved to tell you guys (and girls) I stayed away of the good stuff for 12 days now, but that just aint the truth.
No point lying to myself or to you. Hope you understand.:sad:

Loose Rivets, a late but sincere thanks for your input
Kissmysquirrel kickass with the poker game.
RaTA I know!!!!
Brianh, old fashioned earl grey with honey does the trick for me;)

[slim_slag]

Well LOC*, this may be controversial, but I wouldn't approach your GP. The reason I say this is because

1) Chances are he isn't going to be much direct use and will only tell you to go see somebody else.
2) You will get a nasty line in your notes which may haunt you later.

I only say this because by posting here you know you have a problem and so should be supported until you get over it. Had you turned up to fly under the effects of alcohol (drunk or hungover) I'd not say the same, in fact I'd lock you up.

What I'd do when you get back home is call an anonymous service like Drunkline (0800 917 8282). They have people on the end of the phone who can start you off. There are plenty of community based services to help you get over your problem, but you need to be clear that you need to do this yourself. Google searches will come up with lots of possibile places to approach.

As you are a contract pilot you can also think about stopping flying for a bit. You claim you don't fly when suffering from the effects of alcohol but I don't believe you. It seems that your job makes you turn to the booze so have a break, it will probably make you feel better anyway. So I'd get help now while people still have sympathy for your plight and get back to your career when you have sorted yourself out. Good luck.

[Flyin'Dutch']

As I've said before:
Remember that the problem is not only confined to the effects of the alcohol itself (intoxication, lack of judgment etc) but also spreads itself across the rest of life with craving for the stuff when sober, irritability when sober etc

LOC if you feel 'good' for 'having a couple' after a stressful day then you are on the slippery slope.

Bet you when that when the stress was mounting you already looked forward to those few glassed of malt you 'promised' yourself.

[Hawk]

Various controlled drinking programs out there. A few available on the net. Three to four standard drinks per day, with two days off per week.

A question to ask yourself is whether alcohol is affecting your work, social or personal life. If any of these it might be worthwhile trying controlled drinking, the aim being for you to control alcohol, not alcohol control you.
Most people can work out a plan for themselves and the following tips might be helpful.

Its important to work out, usually with the help of a diary, where, when, how, what and the hardest of all..Why. So might be useful before you start on a program to spend a few weeks just monitoring your intake. Try to note if there may be any particular triggers that put you into the uncontrolled drinking. It's much easier to manage when you understand your pattern.

Should you decide to start a program, remember, do not skip a prescribed drink. Its a gradual self detox, the risk of not drinking your quota is a binge a few days later. If you decide to do the four standard drinks per day..then dont skip them because you think you are doing ok.

If you usually overdo it on wine..then get rid of wine and switch to a spirit.
Make up a pitcher of gin and tonic that has your daily dose and the rest tonic or some other mixer. Sip slowly, and drink the lot. Be clear about the measurement of a "standard" drink. Dont use your usual wine glass. Go find a glass that is the standard measure and use it. If you are a spirit drinker then make sure you use a drink measurer as used in commercial bars and avilable in home bar kits.

Many do their damage at a particular time..ie. day of the week or time of the day. Interesting thing is, that once you get through that day or that time in the day, the desire to drink goes away temporarily. So for many, its a matter of spreading their allocation over that time period or day, being aware that its a dangerous period for them.

Just a few ideas there are lots of others, thanks to do those who have posted, keep them coming.
Thanks
Hawk

[brianh]

LOC

I think some are being too hard on you and I support Hawk. When I do a hard day (as noted earlier 43 deg C here the other day which I think equates to about 109 F) I enjoy a beer at the end. I crave a beer at the end.

Anyway, back to the tea drink. Hopefully your Earl Grey is herbal. The reason I went to the Sleepytime is no caffeine and I add minimal sugar, reason being that bedtime is the one time a belt of caffeine and a sugar kick is absolutely counter productive to sleep.

[RaTa]

LOC* Don't whip yourself too much over slipping up, just put it behind you and start again.
As long as it is not a regular occurrence, having a couple of drinks after a particularly bad day can be good for some in that it helps their stress levels. Note that I said "not a regular occurrence"
I hope it all goes well!

[LOC *]

Just to set the record straight, yes I did bust my trial perod with a drink but it wasn't a binge. I had a single glass of whisky after a particular hard few days. Difference being that afterwards I don not go home to my family wich might make it easier but end up in a hotelroom (btw kissmysquirrel congrats with your son, hope you have a good time).
To stop flying is not an option unfortunately, my financial situation will not allow that at the moment.
Maybe going cold turkey is just not the way to proceed, as said before I did not have any problems the 10 days preceeding my "slip".
Still a few days to decide if going to my gp is a good choice, some vallid points being said about that.
For the time being back to the earl grey.

Hawk, some very useful tips there.

Thanks again for the support & advise

[slim_slag]

Still a few days to decide if going to my gp is a good choice, some vallid points being said about that.

Advice given should be taken in it's entirety or not at all. You asked the question 'Lost in Alcohol?' and the answer is 'Yes you are'. You cannot control it, you need to get some help. You have admitted your problem so should be treated compassionately, but that isn't going to last for ever.

There is no evidence that "having a couple of drinks after a particularly bad day can be good for some in that it helps their stress levels." In fact it's been looked at and found to be not the case.

When I do a hard day (as noted earlier 43 deg C here the other day which I think equates to about 109 F) I enjoy a beer at the end. I crave a beer at the end.

When you get back to the UK you should also call the Drunkline number given above.

[brianh]

Slim Slag

Point of order. It was I, not LOC who enjoys a beer after a 43 deg day. I do not recollect suggesting it eased my stress level.

And it is I who suggests that all things in moderation is an excellent philosophy. My parents are 87 and 92, still living in their own home and a tribute to that philosophy.

Today I had a mate drop in who has aged prematurely with alzheimers equivalent due to alcohol abuse. He represents the other extreme.

I am unaware of any studies indicating that alcohol in moderation, with alcohol free days included regularly in one's calendar, is a sign of either alcoholism or has been proven harmful.

In fact, my regular blood tests following a white tail spider bite treated with (forgive spelling oh medicos) flucloxicillin that has given some long term side effects indicate that my moderate alcohol intake for enjoyment - not compulsion - are having no adverse effects on organs etc.

People can become very judgemental about alcohol. A purist would not take many cough mixtures if they read the label (must be why I was addicted to Waterbury's - I think - cough syrup as a kid?)

[got caught]

I'd agree, alcohol can be a very socially useful drug, which, in moderation, probably enhances physical, social and mental wellbeing.

Unfortunately, as clinicians, we are perhaps trying to find objective variables which enable us to make a diagnosis, and we are perhaps focussing on measurable units, such as the amount of alcohol consumed, when we are trying to establish some sort of diagnosis.

The fact remains, though, that the original poster, although actually only drinking 3-4 whiskies per day, is now recognising, and describing symptoms directly related to his drinking- and very brave he is to, even on this anonomous forum.

Anyone not recognising this is probably living in denial :)

In terms of helping this individual, then there are some strategies available to you- moderation, controlling or abstainence- I'd agree, talk to one of the many helplines.

I think SS may have a point about the medical records issue.

[slim_slag]

brianh,
The word you used was 'crave', it seems reasonable to suggest you think about that, drunkline might help you do so.
I am unaware of any studies indicating that alcohol in moderation, with alcohol free days included regularly in one's calendar, is a sign of either alcoholism or has been proven harmful.
Alcohol and ischaemic heart disease: probably no free lunch
Jackson R, Broad J, Connor J, Wells S
The Lancet - Vol. 366, Issue 9501, 3 December 2005, Pages 1911-1912

Evidence is now coming in that moderate (as currently defined) alcohol intake is overall bad for your physical health. My personal opinion is that the quality of life and social benefits that moderate alcohol provides makes it worth it, but no operating complex machinery when under the influence please. Either drunk or hungover, or craving.

In fact, my regular blood tests ... indicate that my moderate alcohol intake for enjoyment - not compulsion - are having no adverse effects on organs etc.
As FD says, that proves nothing. In your case knowing your results could be harmful, as you obviously think because your blood tests are OK you don't have alcohol related damage.

Some people just shouldn't drink alcohol. Why is that such an unwelcome message to some?

[enicalyth]

For me the time to take stock was just after retirement. Without the regimen I got slack.

Everyone can reduce the amount they drink but it will be in different ways. My consumption was over 21 units a week so I made a plan to lose weight for our holidays. My wife hardly drinks but she gave up her small amount to make it an alcohol free house. We agreed to each have up to three glasses of wine per week but only if dressed up and out for a meal. Otherwise zilch.

My weight had absolutely ballooned so I could say with fairness that drinking was out of the question until I lost weight. Then that I was doing so well and feeling so much better that I wasn't going to undo good work. Then that I realised that mechanical drinking was not in fact pleasure - but I've time for a lime-and-soda! People got used to that and so did I.

Also I would quiz myself. A man in search of a beer will find 101 ways. ”Shopping? I’ll meet you in the Rissole at one!” Wrong! You'll be there at twelve, she'll be there at twenty to two. "Shopping? I'll visit the barbershop!" Wrong! It's gonna be packed Saturday.

I found active distractions not passive ones. Waiting for a train or ferry? Look for that birthday or anniversary present now even though it's not for ages. Don't sit in a bar with a beer and a crossword. It's one thing to enjoy the crack with a mate before catching the train, just so long as you catch that train and not the next. It's another thing to drink alone or strike up a friendship and be on the last train out.

After a month my weight had really dropped but still with some way to go. I felt cleaner, leaner and hated the idea of backsliding. This is the gruesome bit. I sat down on the internet and faced up to the damage alcohol does. It made sense not to drink on consecutive days! In fact if KO Sally could keep it to 5-10 units per week why not me?

What I consume now I enjoy. I have set limits and monitor progress. People know where they stand and if no-one laughs at my funny jokes it is because they were never funny in the first place. Most importantly Mrs "E" hasn't seen me go downhill, in fact I am in better nick all round which is all the encouragement I need.

But let me tell you this. The first six months after retirement were pretty grim. I have found work since, good work and pro-rata not flat-out charlie. We do sail our boat and are working her up for the Cape and St Helena. It's a balance this post 55-yr employment, one my employer approves and I can work from home. I got a glimpse of another me, a warning glimpse I intend to heed. Alcohol dependence can happen to anybody and in my case there is no fool like an old fool. 5-10 units still poses a risk and the cleanest looking blood test are no indicator of the fatigue cracks and delaminations within. I can't believe how quickly you can go ratsh*t when on the beach after a lifetime's flying.

[brianh]

Slim Slag

I am writing this quickly between phone calls, it may be my last post here.

Realising that the keyword is crave, I listed my cravings. Too long to post but it included as just a few examples (sometimes) anchovies, brussels sprouts, coca cola, chocolate, solitude, company, moussaka, rib eye steak, malted milks (usually in the Outback when they are not available), even sometimes a craving for sex.

I have rung all the help lines. Result - I have both phones ringing at present and an answering machine full of calls to return. As a result, the payment of my phone bill will prevent any spare cash to satisfy any of my cravings so it has worked.

Trouble is I now also have a house full of welfare workers, psychologists and psychiatrists - and they are all craving food and drink. Woe is me. I cannot have a meaningful dialogue with any of them because I am dishing out food and grog and I am waiting for Tina Turner to ring me back about my last mentioned craving request.

Back to business - I really don't think that the odd craving hurts anyone and I am not going to ring drunkline - I have my own breathalyser (not cheap nor the recalibration annually) to ensure I don't merit the "drunk" in drunkline.

From Air Craft - Human Performance and Limitations - There is evidence that a small amount of alcohol has a beneficial effect on the body but more than one or two drinks a day ......

On the motoring side, returning to my theme of all things in moderation, Borkenstein and Crowther in US Traffic Digest and Review found the accident frequency for drivers in the 0.01% to 0.04 BAC level was lower than for drivers with no alcohol. Drivers with BAC of 0.03 were about one-third less likely to cause accidents than alcohol free drivers.

I am not by any means suggesting drink driving or drink driving. Nor am i trying to defend my occasional craving - that's what a craving is all about. If it is a daily thing, the craving becomes instead a habit.

What I am suggesting is my original theme that "all things in moderation" is the go, and those who can maintain all things in moderation have a control of their cravings and habits that indicates pleasure not some disease.

It is funny how people have views at either extreme about alcohol. I'll drink to that!

[slim_slag]

brianh,

I'm really interested in understanding why you own a breathalyser. Care to explain why?

[RVR800]

So to summarise its OK to drink in moderation. I'll drink to that:oh:

[slim_slag]

So to summarise its OK to drink in moderation.
I'm not sure where you get that from.

The original poster described symptoms of alcohol dependance (alcoholism). The best advice given by the people who know what they are talking about was to talk to somebody about it. Generally they were supportive.

Other posters, who definitely don't know what they are talking about, seemed to think that LOC * was fine. This is strange because LOC * himself doesn't think that. Then we got onto the physical effects of alcohol, which has nothing to do with the subject in hand. One suspects that was part of a denial process, but I'm not too sure.

Put simply, alcoholism includes symptoms of craving, loss of control, tolerance and physical dependance. It's more complex than that, but you get the gist. The amount of alcohol you drink doesn't appear in that list, but craving does.

But anyway, to get onto the subject of whether moderate alcohol intake is good for your physical health. It's open to discussion. Studies have shown people who drink moderate amounts of alcohol have less of one type of heart disease. However, these people also have healthier lifestyles than people who don't drink. Drinking heavily actually keeps the coronary arteries clear, but they have greatly increased incidences of other cardiomyopathies.

Drinking heavily affects other organs, interestingly enough the liver is pretty good at coping with alcohol in most people, which is why standard liver function blood tests don't mean much.


There is now evidence coming in that there is no advantage to drinking moderate amounts. It's not overwhelming, but the evidence that drinking is good for you was never overwhelming either. Good advice would be that if you don't drink don't start, if you do drink and can do so responsibly switch to red wine. If you are an alcoholic you need to stop, cutting down doesn't tend to work.

[brianh]

Slim Slag

Keep fishing, I love a good debate.

As you will guess from my earlier post, I have a strong interest in the road toll - I am an advocate of moving some of the flying training concepts and medical checks across to motoring. I believe the current enforcement and punitive measures are chasing effects rather than causes and only by better education and emergency procedure training can we improve matters. Interestingly, Victoria has increased speed cameras, radars, and increased penalties - and last years toll was the highest in 3 years.

Anyway, back to your question. The statistics on the road toll are significant for BAC above 0.05. Also in Victoria the loss of licence BAC is 0.05 and above.

I cannot control the actions of my 33 yo son and his mates, nor of some of our guests - but I do have the breathalyser here to enable them to check themselves as needed. I likewise check myself if I ever drink wine or spirits when out because it is not always easy to be certain what ones host has filled into the glass. Over kill you may say but I am by nature a cautious person. Drink spiking is also a problem in some venues.

I have spent the last 3 and a half hours (it's 11 pm) on an AOPA phone conference (bloody dry and a beer may have been nice) and sorry to disappoint any attempts to move me to the drunk tank but that's my third night without alcohol - although I am on my third can of coca cola and now have a craving for sleep (forgot that craving in my earlier post).

But it is meant to be 41 deg on Sunday and I am working up a (moderate) thirst. You did not ask what I drink - the standard here is 4.9% alcohol - my favourite is a Coopers no preservatives mild ale at 3.5% and i am working on a craving for Sunday already.

My neighbours have folowed my example and have their own breatho also. Costs about $180 AUD - much better than being called to identify a visitors body later.

All things in moderation and AFDs a regularity. Tina has still not phoned unfortunately.

Afterthough - I see you have posted as I prepare this. "No advantage in drinking alcohol" is your comment, but that doesn't mean there is a disadvantage in all things in moderation. Not sure of your source but go back to my Human Factors reference. There is also no advantage in eating MacDonalds or fairy floss - but, yum!

And no, I'm not canning LOC for querying what could be an alcohol problem. I'm just suggesting that I do not intend to label LOC as having a problem until LOC can assess the situation and confirm there is or not a dependency.

[slim_slag]

Interesting brianh. I only know two other people with breathalysers and they are both inappropriate drinkers who use it to get home without breaking the law. They are unable to say "No".

But more irrelevant stuff, I assume your authoritative Human Factors source is an ATPL text book, I wonder what its impact factor is? I see you even got speed cameras in, so I guess it's off to Jet Blast we go :)

['I' in the sky]

Slim Slag,

Interesting that you quote tolerance as a sign of dependancy; have you been paying too much attention to the FAA ?

Interesting that they define tolerance as "the ability to walk with a blood alcohol content of 0.2%" -you should apparently be totally sedated with this amount and yet according to them OK to fly an aircraft at one fifth of this amount !

[cavortingcheetah]

:hmm:

It just might be helpful to do a little research on the differences between alcoholism and dipsomania. The latter term has gone out of favour in these days of bulk branding but it usefully describes a condition other than raw alcholism.:uhoh:

[slim_slag]

I in the Sky,

1) answer to your question is No.
2) Doubt the FAA define it as you have, but I wouldn't know as I don't consider them an authority on these things so don't pay much attention.
3) This has very little to do with absolute alcohol intake or blood levels.

Cavorting cheetah.

As I said, the diagnosis of alcoholism is more complex than looking at four symptoms. Craving (dipsomania) is merely part of the picture, a diagnosis of diseases of this kind can not be made purely on that one symptom. However it is highly suggestive that somebody who describes 'craving' may have a chemical dependancy which is why I suggest they talk to somebody about it. They can make a diagnosis better than us lot on a bulletin board, there may well be nothing in it. It's interesting that this suggestion is ridiculed, but there may be nothing in that either.

[cavortingcheetah]

:ouch:

One of the more unhappy characterisitics of dipsomania is that of morbidity in the craving. Quite often the dipsomaniac desire is for liquers which of course are high in sugar. Res ipsa loquitur?

[Mac the Knife]

Hawk writes, "Various controlled drinking programs out there....."

Oh dear! One of the hallmarks of alcoholism is increasingly desperate and hopeless attempts at "control". Alcoholics love the idea of "controlled drinking programs" - it means they won't have to stop! This doesn't work - alcoholics do not have control, their response to alcohol is abnormal and defines their illness.

Alcoholism is a chronic, progressive and ultimately fatal disease.

Only one answer of the alcoholic, total and permanent abstention.

[cavortingcheetah]

:)

Therefore would it be fair, accurate and reasonable to summarise as follows:

1. Alchoholism is a disease, perhaps a symptom of an addictive personality, whether of genetic, pyschological or other causation which is not completely understood by the medical profession, or should I rather say: has not been sufficiently researched? eg: correlation between alcohol abuse and drug addiction.
2. It is incurable.
eg:(There is no validity in the statement reported in today's BBC from Lord Mc Nally, for example, that he used to be an alcoholic.)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4633970.stm
3. The only remedy for the sufferer and those around him is complete abstinence.
4. Given total abstinence from alcohol, the prognosis for physical and mental recovery is usually very good although physically the status quo ante may never quite be achieved. There will usually always be some residual damage.
5. If damage to the internal organs or to the brain has progressed beyond a certain point the alcoholic might just as well continue to drink himself to death, enjoying himself as he sees it?
Thus last speaks the cynic; one who views the prospect of the salvation afforded by a liver transplant with a somewhat, if inappropriately, jaundiced eye.:sad:
6. With complete abstinence the alcoholic can usually live a perfectly normal and contented life as can those around him!:D

[Mac the Knife]

"....drink himself to death, enjoying himself as he sees it?"

The idea of the happy alcoholic (a la Harvey) is a myth - once the illness has reached a certain point all alcoholics are sick, confused, guilty and desperately unhappy. They can't stop and they can't go on.

Drinking to live,
Living to drink, and finally,
Drinking to die

"With complete abstinence the alcoholic can usually live a perfectly normal and contented life as can those around him"

From what I've seen, yes. AA teaches them that there is no cure, only a state of recovery, which is why people who haven't touched a drop for 20 years still refer to themselves as "an alcoholic in recovery".

Addiction is a terrible thing: I've had two colleagues commit suicide over the years from mixed addictions and, thankfully, one chum who at the 15 year sobriety mark is happy, successful and respected.

[cavortingcheetah]

:uhoh:

Now to a little of the old nitty g!
Please bear in mind that I speak as a layman not a medical practitioner of any sort, not even as a pathologist!
The point where a heavy drinker, social or solitary, might be diagnosed as an alcoholic is an ill defined and well debated one.
There are numerous little hit list check lists on the net to aid in a self assessment of this crossroads. The scoring usual proceeds along the lines of: One yes: You might be.
Two: You are risky.
Three: Uncharted waters.
Four: Dangerous.
Five: Damned.
So then, at what point in this little journey does the individual decide that, left unstopped, his drink problem will become a real handicap to his life and the lives of those around him.

I am not sure that the best way around this conundrum is to seek the advice of those within the family or immediate circle as to whether or not alcohol causes mood swings. This characterisitc of addictive behaviour is really quite important and I believe it is ignored in far too many instances. In very simple terms, is not a mood change a brain swing of sorts, perhaps a synaptic manifestation? If this be so and if alcohol or any substance for that matter causes such mood swings, best avoid it on a rather permanent basis.

I too have had friends who perished at the cup of the demon drink. The last one, a husband and father of great wit, intelligence and humour literally and deliberately moved to a sunny European clime, filled his cellar with booze and then, with singular purpose and intent and notwithstanding the protestations of all around, drowned himself in grog.:sad:

[effortless]

I have been a heavy - very heavy drinker but I was never an alcoholic, though members of my family are substance dependent, booze and or drugs. I used to think that the reason I wasn't an alcoholic was that I could never stand a hair of the dog. If I had a skin full I couldn’t even think about another beer for days.
As with smoking, some people are true addicts and some aren't. We all know people who have stopped and, after a period of recovery, never needed another fag, drink or hit ever again. We also know people who gave up years ago and still feel the need. It is a very complex thing and it isn't fair. My mate, the FatPlumber, cannot remember whole months from his teens and twenties but he has never needed a drink. He swears that his brothers are addicts but found God instead of the bottle. I wonder if he isn't right
If you need to test yourself, see how long you can go without. If, at the end of a day, you are desperate you have a problem and should take stock. Don't kid yourself by saying "I am not desperate I just want a drink." Push it a bit further.
Alcoholics don't always get pissed. They do however, need a drink.

[60N030]

www.boaf.org (http://www.boaf.org)


This might be your answer. This organization has helped many fallen aviators and given the guidence to countless preventing many destroyed careers.

Please check this out, it might be the smartest career decision that you ever made.......


What is Birds Of A Feather, Int'l and who is this web site for?Excerpt from an address given on behalf of BOAF, at the Alcohol Awareness Hour, Eisenhower Medical Center, April 1978, by Ward B. (SEA).
"About BOAF. A clinical diagnosis of alcoholism or a history of an excessive drinking habit disqualifies an aviator from holding the FAA medical certificate which permits him to work as an airman. Thus an aviator having a problem with alcohol whose condition became known was automatically grounded. BOAF was formed in 1975 to assist troubled airmen to sobriety, thereby saving lives and careers. It was formed by three recovered pilots and two non-pilot airmen in the Pacific Northwest. In 1976 the Federal Air Surgeon, H. L. Reighard, a very perceptive and realistic practitioner, believed that air safety is to be enhanced by assisting airmen to recovery rather than having them remain in the closet along with their booze. There are now ten BOAF organizations in the U.S. and two International. BOAF has done exactly as the founders had hoped – assisted airmen to recovery."

Today, Birds Of A Feather, Int'l serves the same purpose; to assist troubled airmen to sobriety, thereby saving lives and careers. There are many more "Nests" now throughout the United States, Canada, Europe and other countries doing exactly as the founders had hoped – assisting airmen to recovery.



www.boaf.org (http://www.boaf.org)

[effortless]

Whatever you want to give up, it can be very important not to give it up but replace it with something else. Chocolate is probably a bad idea. An activity is better. I took up karate when I was eating and drinking too much. Now that was addictive.

[got caught]

Mac, arn't you just relating your experiences as seen from the sharp end of the knife?

Is it accurate to describe alcohol related problems in such black and white terms ?

[Mac the Knife]

Umm... Well, I lived for several years with an alco so I think I know what I'm talking about. And I've watched 2 terrific people flush themselves down the toilet until the only escape from their agony they could see was death. Later, on the basis of my own experiences I managed to get a third colleague into a Drug Dependency Unit in time - he was one of the lucky ones and is today happy, successful, respected and sober.

A good going alco is effectively insane, as they're completely irrational, have delusions, manipulate-manipulate-manipulate and lie all the time and better than a politician. They''re physically ill, with alcohol poisoning and multiple nutritional deficiencies. They're capable of more-or-less lucid moments, which they mostly use to obtain and hid booze. Alcos can be extraordinarily persuasive when they want and eventually the people around them start to wonder who IS crazy and become unbalanced themselves.

That's where Al-Anon comes in - they explain to you what the disease is all about and why your nearest and dearest is the way they are. At the same time, you learn that it's THEIR disease, not yours; that you're NOT crazy, and how to get on with your own life.

Perhaps, looking back, there are a few shades of gray among the black and white, but not many. Alcos and their affected friends and family need a pretty black and white approach, otherwise they'd get bogged down in arguments about the shade of gray and never get anywhere.

Alcoholics Anonymous and Al-Anon have been described as brainwashing, but as my partner (female) later admitted - "My brain was pretty dirty, guess it needed a wash".

Make no mistake about it, alcoholism is a chronic, progressive and ultimately lethal illness - the gutter, the morgue, jail or an asylum is where it ends.

Fortunately my partner made it through to the other side, though we're not together anymore, but it was terribly tough. The sad thing is that only a small percentage of established alcoholics ever make it into long-term recovery - most don't, and die.

Alcoholics in long-term recovery are amazing people - they've had a near-death experience and survived, but learn and practice their 12 Step program, which keeps 'em sober and humble.

Google for Al-Anon on the web - good way of finding out about a dreadful affliction that is no respecter of persons.

[got caught]

So are you saying most people who drink alcohol, or, as LOC describes, worries about possible dependency on alcohol, go on to become alcoholics?

I'm glad your colleagues/partner recovered, but I'm still not sure that they represent the true picture of what goes on out there.

I would have liked to take this argument further but find it difficult because of you personal involvement.

I think the picture is more complex than you paint.