ATC abuse / TCAS resolution (merged)

[kontrolor]

Hello everybody. A month or so, we had a case, where ATCO was late in notifying the possible conflict, but gave the corrective heading on time. The crew didn't comply for more than 45 seconds, by which time airprox was becoming a reality. After TCAS RA and after both planes were cleared, the verbal abuse from the cockpit started. And it just didn't stop. I know, that crew must have been in stress, but believe me, the level of stress is high on the other part of the microphone as well. I would like to hear your experience...and your thoughts.

[vonbag]

Hello Kontrolor,
My thought (IMHO, thus):
Prolonged verbal abuse is totally inexcusable, and should be reported, in this case.
Alles bestens

edited pursuing politeness, which appears to be an endangered "specie" nowadays.
Tutto il meglio, in my native language (= all the best = alles bestens = het beste...)
I add my sympathies and, after reading other posts that followed, I am ROTFLMAO (rolling on the floor laughing my arse off -- Thanks for that). Anyhow: prolonged insults on the frequency,<u> in that case</u> = lack of proficiency (Again <u>IMHO</u> -- let them be checked!!! Said by somebody who had to go though several psychiatric tests, very unpleasant, my friend-- grüss auf niederlände)

[BEagle]

I disagree...

Because ANY verbal abuse is totally inexcusable, thoroughly unprofessional, totally reprehensible and should certainly be subject to reporting action.

Und Ja, alles bestens!

[JW411]

Verbal abuse is totally unacceptable but consider this;

You were safely tucked up in your warm control tower whatever the outcome and could afford to be magnanamous.

The crews involved had just found themselves in severe danger and were probably in serious need of an underpant change with not a toilet in sight!

[squibbler]

Prolonged verbal abuse is totally inexcusable

So a quick "Thank's for that Radar you :mad: :mad: " is ok then? :}

At times I would just love to let rip on the R/T....I've been damn close on occasions. Maybe if I was on the receiving end I'd let go the years of pent up mental rollockings I've been dishing out :E

But, must be professional and all that.

Maybe on my last day..............tee hee ;)

[markflyer6580]

Just let it out squibbler,there is a controller at humberside who doesn't think twice about bollicking/ranting at pilots,does us good though most of the time,gets some peoples backs up big time aswell!:}

[javelin]

Argh, the paroquial delights of Humberside - just a couple of years ago, I was airborne from North Coates en route home strip in a Zlin. Outside their 2 and 2 they started to ask me to steer this that and the other due departing heavy traffic. I very politely reminded them that I was in the open FIR and would maintain height and heading.

Didn't go down well.

The Airbus missed me.

Now to all you who say what a beligerent sod, if they want to play big airports, justify the traffic volumes and get a zone, if not, be polite to the other customers and ask nicely and we will move - simple customer service really.

Same can be said of Teeside, arrogant people as well.

Now Leeds, different kettle of bananas, even Ma'am has her moments :E

[M609]

tucked up in your warm control tower whatever the outcom

Until father of dead passenger shows up on your doorstep, toting knife a few days later.... :uhoh:

(Yeah, yeah, probability is much less, I know......)

[Farrell]

After a similar incident to the one above one afternoon, I heard just a very plain and simple "Thank you very much for that" from the captain involved.
It was totally deadpan, but spoke volumes.

[brain fade]

Farrell.

Agree. That sort of utterly biting sarcasm is truly effective.

Verbal abuse merely diminishes the man who uses it and is invariably regretted later.:rolleyes:

[captain cumulonimbus]

i had a very hairy one a while back,short final,1.5nm out at 100kt and the twr cleared another aircraft at the holding point to line up on the active i was about to land on.I informed him again i was on final,now very short,and he instructed me to skip over to the parallell,offset threshold rwy.i was at around 200ft.i informed him i was skipping over but it would have to be a go-around off that rwy.i cleared the VOR apparatus by about 150ft in a full-flap,full power steep turn which,as you know,in ground proximity,is extremely hazardous,especially with the moderate to severe widshear that day from an embamkment next to the parallell rwy.

it was a VERY dangerous situation he had placed us in.

He then cleared me to climb and reposition for a landing,but sounded very sheepish and a little shaken.

as FARRELL said,all i said as he handed me over to gnd was:"thanks for that".He could read it as he wished.

There's no need for prolonged abuse,though,i must admit,a few harsh words are indeed perhaps sometimes called for,particularly in Africa to wake people up.But certainly NEVER EVER swearing.

Cheers.Cb

[haughtney1]

Ahhhhh Africa......many a colourful word spoken.....:rolleyes:

[MysticFlyer]

The best phylosophy, all happens in the heat of the moment, is best resolved over a beer later.

Best is to try and keep your cool, both ends of the mike, but, be sure to pass apologies afterwards where required.

Pitty flying have become more and more impersonal, where's the days where you could walk up to the tower and exchange niceties...and apologies?

When flying involved in the heat of the moment exchanges, but one's always a gent to apologize after the dust have settled....if you survived it!?

[ehwatezedoing]

The crew didn't comply for more than 45 seconds,

I agree for a little report on their verbal abuse. It might put them a little more on the "ball" next time and prevent another radio session.

[Leezyjet]

Oh I thought this was going to be about the abuse we get on the other end of "company".

:E

[Airbus Girl]

Not condoning abuse but did the controller say "turn immediately" and advise of the potential conflict? 45 seconds is a long time, I can't imagine that if the correct RT was used the crew wouldn't have moved swiftly.

[dunadan06]

Well, if we need to use the emergency RT to get a crew attention, and a reaction time below 45sec, there'll be a lot of "immediately" on the air!

As for the verbal abuse, it's not really "pro"! And if it "just didn't stop", maybe asking for an explanation (for the delay and the abuse) is a good idea.

[kontrolor]

Hello again, this is part two from my post "verbal abuse on frequency". The problem started, when crew of aircraft, which later on abused on frequency (stating even if the ATCO is insane), apparently was misguided about traffic situation when looking at the TCAS. They were turning the opposite what ATCO was giving them, and pointing out the traffic seen on TCAS. Suffice to say, that this is wrong usage of ACAS and they obviously forgot, that traffic on TCAS is not shown in absolute, but relative bearing, since both planes are moving in space. As ATCO, I would like your (pilot) input on this.

[Spuds McKenzie]

Well, speaking as an ATCO, those pilots are morons! :mad:

[Daysleeper]

Well, speaking as an ATCO, those pilots are morons!

Well speaking as a pilot those pilots are morons.

[kontrolor]

the problem worsend sharply, after it became clear, that this pilot was using ACAS for self navigation, but didn't think, that both, him and his "target" are moving, so his TCAS display was not showing the actual position. So he turned his heading, instead given one.

Do you in the cockpit also sometimes do that - I mean, navigate using TCAS information, or are at least tempted to do so?

We are investigating this as a potential danger still burried, but disaster waiting to happen...

[N380UA]

captain cumulonimbus

At this moment and under these circumstances why didn’t you tell the controller that you're unable to expedite his instruction and that instead you, would execute a go around over that RWY (a bit offset, parallel for safety sake). The controller was clearly wrong for clearing another aircraft on an active RWY whilst you were on its approach but by clearing the VOR with 150ft in full landing config in a steep turn on a swing over didn’t improve the overall situational safety.

Of course, I don’t know what equipment you were flying nor the prevailing WX situation or the AD you were flying to. It might have seemed the right thing to do at the time. However, as PIC it is your responsibility to accept or decline a controllers order, amongst others under the aspect of safety.

Now as for some choice words, as long as it is kept on a professional level I agree with you regardless whether it is Africa, Europe or the US. The goal must be to make it unequivocally clear that safety has to be our first priority, not to put down someone personally for making a misjudgment. We all have made some lousy calls sometime, I know I have, and not just once. If it all comes out ok and we have learned something in the process than we have gained a bit of safety.

[Gary Lager]

kontrolor - indeed, the temptation is there to use the TCAS display for lateral self-navigation.

However, any pilot who does so in anythgin other than extreme circumstances would be do so against all guidance from the manufacturer, aviation authority and (hopefully) their company.

Whilst it is an extremly useful tool in aiding pilots to plan approaches, obtaining visual contact with traffic and building up situational awareness of the overall air traffic picture in our immediate vicinity, most of us with any experience know that the directional resolution of the TCAS display is exceptionally poor, and ought never be used in isolation for selecting avoiding headings.

Even if the system was perfect, however, if receiving a Radar Control Service then it is incumbent upon flight crew to immediately inform ATC if we are altering heading or level contrary to our received clearance - if this was not done then it is more evidence that this person was a fool.

[kontrolor]

what worries me is the fact, that such incidents (using TCAS for "navigation") are on the rise. Maybe there IFALPA should be notified about this emerging problem. I'm not rising any panic here, though...

I myself and my coleagues had several cases when pilot was interfering with the clearance due to false impression of traffic situation.

[EastCoaster]

Speaking as a controller, I have to say it sounds bloody scary.

Not having ever been unfortunate enough to have had any TACS/RA's on my frequency (although I have had one or two break off an approach because of erratic flying by unidentifed VFR traffic!), I can only imagine what must have been going through your mind kontroler at the time.

Like N380UA I am perfectly willing to put my hands up and admit to having made some lousy calls in my time, and I am the first to admit when I've f@cked up, and have always apologised, whether on frequency or otherwise. Doesn't always stop the few curt words coming across from the other side though!
But for the crew to berate you over an open channel like that, whether for an extended length of time or not, is in my view utterly unprofessional.

From what you've described about the incident, and not only their abysmal R/T, I should think they should count themselves very lucky if they retain their licenses when the dust settles from all of this!

We (as controllers and flight-crew alike) depend so much on each other to get the job right, and we can ill-afford one or two individuals to sour that relationship which is so important to safety over-all.