Training, hours building and first job prospects in America

[cpi2003]

Hey all,

Im back now from my holidays in Florida where I managed to squeeze in visits to a couple of Helicopter schools while I travelled round there.

I dont want to openly post my opinions of each school on the forum because no doubt there will be plenty of reponses telling me how wrong I am about some of them.

Anyway feel free to pm me and i'll send on what I have. I am glad I visited the schools before I head over for my training. Also its good as an aspiring PPLer to be able to help anyone in my position!

[funfinn2000]

howya, so ya want to go to usa to finish up, I am an FAA CFI in Ireland witha base in Florida. pm me

[itsthatphil]

hi guys,

I am a UK citizen and am thinking of pursuing helicopter flight training with a view to gaining my cpl[h].

This has been my dream for over a decade now but it is only now that after a lot of saving I may be in a position to afford the training cost without having to resort to a crippling bank loan. I reckon that in the summer I will have about £40k / $80k in liquid funds. I would be looking to train in the US but would appreciate some advice regarding the FAA licence.

First and foremost, if I were to pursue the FAA ticket, will I be able to find employment once my student visa expires? Would I have to formally emigrate, get a green card etc. or are there other alternatives?

Secondly, what other countries would allow me to work using the FAA licence without the need for further training and/or licence conversion?

Please note, I don't have anything against the JAA licence per se, its just that I can't justify the cost to myself and believe that with the funds I have available I should be able to obtain the FAA CPL and have a fair amount of capital left to travel around to pursue CFI work and to fund my basic living costs until I have earned enough hours for a reasonably well paid flying job.
I have also had enough of our fair isle and would jump at the chance to see more of the world as I pursue a flying career.

Lastly, if I have to emigrate formally, would it be easier to do so as a student pilot [i.e. no job as yet] or by using my current professional status?

I look forward to your replies.
Best Regards,

Phil.

[helicrazi]

Hi Guys and Girls,

Firstly forgive me if this has been coverd in another thread of which I am yet to find...

Im looking at taking the JAA CPL course in Bristow Titusville Florida, just looking for any opinions, experiences, hints, tips or information that may be useful about the school and the area and life out there as a student...

Thanks in advance....

[Iain-M]

If you were allowed to do a 3 letter search you would find plenty posts on it!

The flying school used to be called HAI Florida. Try searching for Florida in rotorheads, or helicopter adventures.

Any useful information? Well from past posts I believe there is an 18 month waiting list to get a plcae on their CPL course.

[timberwolf]

Good luck with the wait. I called them a few days ago and was informed that they are fully booked till March 2009. :mad::ugh:

[harsh_bhandari]

hi,
i am looking for a good academy out there in US... if whatever you are talking about is actualy practised in the academy you just stated then please reply....

[timberwolf]

Give them a call if you have any doubts about waiting times. I have called them twice just to make double sure. That was a few weeks ago so the situation may have gotten worse.

[highflier0507]

hey there...

I will take u up on your offer... I'm hoping to do do my training for my commercial pilots license in America... As the case stands I'm overwhelmed by the sheer volume of pilot training schools there available.


I'm also hoping to finance the entire thing myself so I would appreciate your guidance on reputed training school schools that I could check out..

Ive heard that the weather in Texas is generally good so the time taken to accumulate flying hours is considerably shorter.... ??

I look forward to hearing from u at the earliest...


Highflier!

[ewokdog]

There is a big demand here and I was wondering how it was in other countries.

[FrisBee.be]

Hi guys,

Does any one know if there are any other flight schools in the U.S. apart from HAI/Bristow who have a JAA CPL(H) Course?

Thanks alot and best wishes for 2008

[WestCoastWonder]

I realize this forum is based in the UK, but I am interested in job prospects for an American helicopter pilot (both in the U.S. and abroad). The Bristow school here in Northern California is run by guys who all intend to return to Europe. Supposedly there is a 1000-hour ceiling, but as far as I can tell it varies widely by the job, but how many people have an opportunity to build hours as a fresh CFI? Also, the fixed wing rating costs far less initially but seems to have more limbo afterwards. Anyway, some serious guidance would be helpful...especially from someone who has done some serious job hunting here in the U.S. If anyone still looks at this thread...

BTW, Florida is weak...If you're going to come to the U.S. and blow your budget on flight school, you should consider how much nicer California is. I think Bristow is totally booked in Florida anyway...not so here

[MartinCh]

Hello.

This was talked through many times. There's two J1 heli schools, Pelican have J1 for FW but do RW (was discussed whether possible for rotary career program, no positive conclusions).

Bristow Academy, former Helicopter Adventures gain a lot on training Europeans to JAA papers so that's why they went far to get this sorted. I doubt there'd be any rotary JAA/EASA school in the US anytime soon. But could as well be, but not on J1 as the whole thing won't get any new approvals from US govt.

Another is Hillsboro Aviation, Hillsboro, Oregon. They have some FW training but mainly rotary so it seems. Someone complained here earlier on about lots of Chinese on FW programmes making things bit messy.
Hillsboro do only FAA licenses, naturally.

I was assured by Jenifer, school admin officer that things like scheduling problems were sorted by training block distribution and advance booking.

If you take time, you find it here. OR, just look at CAA website and find that PDF showing ALL JAA FTOs in the UK and abroad.
It also shows less known JAA plank schools in California etc.
Not just Naples, OFT, EFT, OBA for example as most folks make it only there and I think it's kinda overpriced. Even compared to California.
Not to mention that there's plenty other FW schools doing FAA only with M1 visa sponsorship. All it takes is some extra effort back in the UK or Ireland.

[Sam Rutherford]

I know of Bristows in Florida - are there any others?

Sam.

[Whirlygig]

Not as far as I know!

Cheers

Whirls

[MartinCh]

Sam,

NO. NO OTHER JAA ROTARY SCHOOL IN THE US.
Just the one very well known. I know my posts are always messy and lengthy, but I only repeated what many said before.
Plus, you can check it out on CAA's website - JAA training schools. Their PDF is very detailed regarding rotary, FW, UK, abroad, contact details etc.
That would require some research, wouldn't it? :-P

How about oft at KSM. Isn't their chopper side JAA ? I looked at going there but they don't do the FAA CFI course. Air Orlando at ORL do and have an ex HAI instructor who is duel rated, not sure if they do JAA .....
On another note........l have been told that if your course is less than 18 hours a week you don't need a visa !!!!! is this true...... anyone ?

1: something similar was about Pelican on another thread. No positive conclusions to curious questions. Find it in history.

Did you read their website??
------------------------
FAA TO JAA CONVERSION COURSE


• 3 hours R-22 at Cabair Flying Schools
• Incorporated FAA/JAA Differences, plus “Flying in UK/Europe” difference
• 2 hours skills test
• Aircraft rental for skills test

Cabair Flying School locations:
Rochester – Redhill – Bedforshire – Cranfield – Estree – Blackbush
-------------------------
From this and offer of FAA PPL and FAA CPL - ONLY, you can guess.
They are friends (ie get commission or owned or whatever, who cares) with Cabair and you'd probably do some theory in the US towards JAA theory exam SAT IN THE UK with few hours flown there as well, to get JAA papers.


RE exHAI instructor at Air Orlando: Well, from what I've read (THIS WWW) and from common sense (if there is such thing with UK CAA :-/ ) being JAA instructor isn't enough. The school has to be as well. Plus having JAA examiner for checkride, etc etc.
If being FAA CFI and giving certain instruction on N-reg aircraft is enough for FAA (I presume, didn't research it) it isn't necessarily for JAA/JAR.

Otherwise you'd have 'JAA schools' all around the world - any Tom or Dick getting JAA FI in JAA certified school would go back to Latin America, Asia, Africa etc and set up his own school with one R22 or C152 and train another generation. Funny thought. Really.

Why would Bristow Academy do combined JAA/FAA if not for their students' sake of employability in FAA school should they not get a job with them after training. Or, more ratings, more fees. Besides, one can start JAA FI with 250 TT and then do it. In other words, students can do FAA CFI-I with 150-180 hours, then instruct FAA PPL students on Schweizers (thus being able to instruct under 200TT and min 50TT in R22/44 to conform with SFAR73) and get their JAA FI with enough hours. Or simply pay for all the hours until incl JAA FI.

malc4d, for visa stuff consult VISA and US thread and TSA website.
Opinions differ, if you don't have H, M, F visa or green card, you need legal status allowing you to get training towards rating or license. Except 'leisure flying aka hour building while having fun' on visa waiver, all the rest need paperwork. See yourself. Good luck training. I'm off to US in June.

[cpi2003]

Hey guys,

I am off in May to do my PPL in Bristow (HAI). I am looking at giving myself 2 months to get my FAA PPL and hopeful build in a few hours after I qualify.
I have already done 15 hours in Ireland in a Schweizer but I had to switch over to FAA because my eyesight let me down in the medical (I had the laser)
Anyway before I hand over my non refundable booking deposit of $3,000, quit my job and head over is there anything I should know about?

I feel 2 months is enough to pass the exams & checkride. Bristow is reliable at getting the job done (depending on the student of course) and I will only pay as I fly. I think I have everything covered but Im just making a final check before I part with my hard earned cash.

Any other issues I missed would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks guys

[aclark79]

You are going on an M1 visa right? No need to go J1 for just your PPL and you want to save the J1 for when you come back for your CPL and CFI and then work towards your total time, if you go that route.

[manfromuncle]

I am looking at giving myself 2 months to get my FAA PPL

Highly unlikely. More like 3-4 months

[PompeyPaul]

Partner wants to go to Vegas for New Years Eve, and I'm keen on it too. I'd love to build a few rotary hours whilst out there, having never flown in a helicopter before.

I have a UK JAR-PPL(A)

Some questions:

Are there any training providers out there ? I can't find anything but helicopter tours when I do a search. Preferably training in R44 or R22

Will I need to go through the whole M1 visa thing, or does my JAR-PPL(A) mean I can get out of that ?

I'm probably not looking to get a full PPL(H) but would love to maybe get solo, or even just have a few hours.

[alphabreak]

Hi Chaps, l am looking for a JAA approved school in the LA area that can train for the PPL(H) on the 300. The only JAA schools l can find have Robos.

I know the Bristows have a lot, but are in Florida.

Am part way through the JAA PPL, using the 300,and hence need to complete on this aircraft.

Am in LA a lot.

Any help very much appreciated.

Thanks.

[helonorth]

I am not aware of any schools in the US that do JAA training,
besides Bristow.
Bristow still has the school in Concord Ca., but that's near San
Francisco and I don't think the offer the JAA program there.

[206Fan]

Bristow is the only JAA approved school in the USA and thats florida..

[cpi2003]

Hey guys,

I am looking to talk to anyone who has been to Bristow Academy (HAI). Im booked in for May and im at the final stages of getting my visa.

I am just looking to talk to anyone who was there aabout accommodation or whether I should rent a car. I am giving my self 2months but will push to get it done in 5 weeks (need to sit the FAA exams but already have about 20hrs done in a schweizer)

Thanks

[gusmagoo]

Hey cpi2003,
by chance i happen to know of a guy who's there now! (I think it's HAI!)
Try the email address here [email protected]
He has a car and digs!!!
Might be able to help...
Tell him gusmagoo sent ya!
pm me if the liks don't work...
Best wishes
GUS

[g-mady]

Can anyone recomend good flight training schools in the San Francisco area?
Only for R22 / R44 flying but preferably a school someone has used and can recommend...

Thanks

MADY

[relyon]

Specialized Helicopters (http://www.specializedheli.com/) is a Robinson school and factory service center in Watsonville, CA, roughly 90 miles south of San Francisco off of US-1.

[Yuri Gagarin]

www.flymfs.com I trained over there and had a wonderful time! It is in Fresno. Maybe not as beautiful as San Francisco but surely much cheaper!

[helikiwi34]

pprune'rs

I have a New Zealand PPL (H) and looking to build hours in America, as is relatively cheap with our high NZ dollar at the mo. I want to stick with the schweizer 269 as trained on this, ....any recommendations will be greatly appreciated.

[HELOFAN]

I think that would depend o the type of visa you get..short term M1 long term J1.

Not sure how the M1 visa works.

I think majority of S300 schools are in Florida but there are some here and there.
HF

[IceHeli]

The cheapest hour building "special" I have seen on that type is with Applebee aviation in Oregon.

http://www.applebeeaviation.com/

I have no other information about the company. Hope this helps.

BRGDS

I-H

[aclark79]

I'm not an expert on the M1 visa, but a number of our students come initially on thier M1, get thier private and no more than 50 hours past that, then return home, get thier J1 and come and finish, giving them alot more time on thier J1. The more time you have on a J1 the more hour building you can get and if you take a while you aren't hampered when looking for a job.

Some have said you can't come on an M1 and then a J1, but I personally know quite a number of students who have done or are doing it right now.

[C-HNGS]

I went to the US on a M1 visa and after my Pvt+50hrs I changed to the J1 leaving my 18 month to work in the states.
I agree with aclark79:ok: it is the best and most effective way to start into this industry if you are from europe or even canada.

[MartinCh]

Some have said you can't come on an M1 and then a J1, but I personally know quite a number of students who have done or are doing it right now.
And I'd say it's very likely myth perpetuated by some less knowledgable persons and maybe some fixed wing schools that want you to 'tied up' to them on J1 from the scratch.

Both rotary J1 issuing schools make no secrets about some students choosing to do PPL (H) on M1 and later (they both let me know their ideal and max TT and ratings for them to consider me for J1), with not too many hours TT get J1 so they 'save' 3-5 months of training on J1 towards instructing.
It's been discussed numerous times. It's a good thing if you want to make the most of it. I'll go on J1 in the future and starting my M1 in just under 2 months :P

RE: H269/S300 time building - well, California, Oregon and Washington state all have some schools with S300/269. Just look into it. Florida's got obvious advantages during European winter time..

[Old Skool]

When i did it i'm not sure i would have had enough money to do the M1 and then J1. I think i only just had enough money to convince the immigration people i could last on the J1, If i had spent some of my money before turning up in London i may not have got the J1.
If you can secure the J1 before turning up to do the M1 then that would be ideal. I was just glad to get the J1, the people in London took some persuading.

[206Fan]

Sorry guys, can't seem to find any posts on here regarding them..

Looking to go over and do the FAA PPL (H) shortly, cloud9 look the buisness for it and very cheap, cheaper than ocean might i add..

Anyone done their licence with them??

http://cloud9helicopters.com/index.html

Cheers..

[TJF97]

I'm looking to do a transition from the R22 onto the Hughes 300,I'm 80% certain that I do but, will I need a M1 visa to go out to the states to do this?

I already have a FAA PPL(H), i've got the R22 and R44 already.

Answer's on a post card please!

TJF97

PS, Davy07 I went to Cloud9 if you need any info.

[ToTall]

Thats right, as a rated pilot you do not need a visa since you will not improve your skills :ok: but retrain on another helicopter.
Sunset Helicopters in Oregon has a 300c and a MD500.
Its also cheap accommodation close to the Aurora airport.

[choppertop]

I did hour-building with Cloud 9 back in Jan/Feb and can confirm they are a very honest operation. I have no personal or professional link to them.

[206Fan]

I did hour-building with Cloud 9 back in Jan/Feb and can confirm they are a very honest operation. I have no personal or professional link to them.

Yea im booked in with them for end of july.. PPL..

[g-mady]

Can anyone recommend Specialized Helicopters? For an English student to do an FAA IR?
http://www.specializedheli.com/

Anyone used the company? Any thoughts?

MADY

[singesavant]

Well I wouldn't be too subjective, but two days ago I visited them for a long road trip job's hunting purpose and even though they don't have any jobs for me, I have to say that the guy at the front desk (I guess the boss and don't remember his name sorry), was very nice and very funny...
I wish I could have a CFI position in their company which for the little I have seen, looks great and pleasant place to stay in...
very friendly though
My two cents hope it's help ho and I am a foreigner also.

Davy

[matteolo]

I am considering the idea to go in the US at the Bristow academy to do a CPL JAA course.
I would like to know some exeperience of people that have already do that.
What do you think about the school?
Wich course do you raccomend?
Is true that they usually employ students as instructors after the course?

thank you very much....please if you know something write it!! :ok:

[206Fan]

Can't answer you questions as ive not been there but ive heard their fully booked up until summer 09 or more.. Just a heads up from someone i know whos just back from there..

[BHenderson]

I'm across in the US at the moment and have met the first critic of Bristow's operation. The person claims that every pilot, except the one they employed, has not been up to speed. 'Symptom of a pilot factory.' This person has extensive experience.

[airlineboy75]

hello there vinil or should i say AJ....give everyone a break and stop self promoting you sham of a flight school..

[Whirlygig]

have met the first critic of Bristow's operation

I've met a few critics!!! Availability of aircraft, priority given to corporate students, poor advice re conversions/visas etc.

Cheers

Whirls

[MartinCh]

Bristow is the only JAA approved school in the USA and thats florida..
re: rotary JAA school. Bristow Academy have been/are the only rotary JAA FTO outside Europe (happens to be in Florida). Thought I'd add to this.

As some of you might have noticed, Heli West based at Jandakot airport in/close to Perth, Western Australia, advertised for Chief FI for their planned JAA rotary training programme here on PPRuNe.

Sounds interesting (not for my plans). I checked out their website, looks like ground school will be provided by WAAC and they'd do the flying part of training.

Who knows when they'd kickstart the whole thing, but I'm sure there'd be some folks interested. The ones that don't need J1 in the US (enough cash??) and ones that fancy W. Australia and part time work permit from the beginning of student visa (not that it matters so much for them, but..)
and prefer 'change of scenery' or Aussies heading to JAA land.

Time will see. I know this is about US training, just to mention it to update stated fact that are likely to change in near future.

[tonge]

I'm visiting Bristow Academy on Monday, hopefully I'll do a little bit of flying and have a good look round. I'll let you know how I get on, some time next week.

Tonge

[abbywarn]

I am trying to find a private pilot training base in Seattle or Washington, that uses Robinson 44's and the JAA curriculum - does anyone know of a school that meets this description? If need be it can be on the boarder between USA/British Columbia.
I would really appreciate your help,
Thanks,
Abby

[murdock]

I know of a couple of schools in that area, but none that are JAA trainers. I think you can only go to Bristow Academy for JAA helicopter training in the States. As far as B.C., no chance of JAA training around there.

[MtHoodHeli]

Here is what I recommend:
Come to the U.S to a JAA certified school, then go to a time builder operation to build time. We sell R44 Raven time at 410 per hour.

[darrenphughes]

Here is what I recommend:
Come to the U.S to a JAA certified school, then go to a time builder operation to build time. We sell R44 Raven time at 410 per hour.


When you say "time building operation", what do you mean? Do you mean that they should buy R44 time just for the hours after they've gotten their ratings? Because I've gotta tell you, that doesn't seem like a very sensible idea to me?:ugh: But maybe you meant something different.

[windowseatplease]

I would imagine..for people who need to do hour-building. Eg, you get your JAA CPL on an integrated with a total time of 135 hrs and you want to get your JAA FI rating. You can't start the JAA FI course until you have 250 hours. Hence you need to 'hour build'.

[Jarvy]

Not sure if anyone can help but here goes. It looks like I am moving to Connecticut (wifes job) and will have some time on my hands.
I have a CAA CPL(H) but am grounded at present for medical reasons.
So how easy would it be to gain a FAA CPL(H) once living in the US?
and does anyone know of any school in Connecticut area.
Thanks
Jarvy

[windowseatplease]

I think "north east helicopters" are up there, but I know nothing about them.

You will need a Class 2 or 3 FAA Medical and 150 hours total time to get a FAA CPL. You need a Class 2 medical to work as a Commercial Pilot, but you can sit the checkride with a Class 3.

Full FAA CPL(H) Requirements for FAA CPL here:

(c) For a helicopter rating. Except as provided in paragraph (i) of this section, a person who applies for a commercial pilot certificate with a rotorcraft category and helicopter class rating must log at least 150 hours of flight time as a pilot that consists of at least:
(1) 100 hours in powered aircraft, of which 50 hours must be in helicopters.
(2) 100 hours of pilot-in-command flight time, which includes at least—
(i) 35 hours in helicopters; and
(ii) 10 hours in cross-country flight in helicopters.
(3) 20 hours of training on the areas of operation listed in §61.127(b)(3) of this part that includes at least—
(i) 10 hours of instrument training in an aircraft;
(ii) One cross-country flight of at least 2 hours in a helicopter in day VFR conditions, consisting of a total straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure;
(iii) One cross-country flight of at least 2 hours in a helicopter in night VFR conditions, consisting of a total straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and
(iv) 3 hours in a helicopter in preparation for the practical test within the 60-day period preceding the date of the test.
(4) 10 hours of solo flight in a helicopter on the areas of operation listed in §61.127(b)(3) of this part, which includes at least—
(i) One cross-country flight with landings at a minimum of three points, with one segment consisting of a straight-line distance of at least 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and
(ii) 5 hours in night VFR conditions with 10 takeoffs and 10 landings (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern).

[wardy20]

Evening all! I got into the FAA Pro Pilot Course course in Bristow Academy Florida by a cancellation. Due to start in November. I'd like to hear anyones thoughts on the school, good bad or indifferent.

Cheers,
Wardy

[windowseatplease]

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=178199&page=41

[Taff Missed]

First of all, congratulations.

I think if it were me, I'd just be glad I'd got in and be prepared to form my own opinion of the facility when I used it. The very last thing I'd want would be a load of old farts saying what they thought of it.

Its what you think of it that counts.

Good luck.

Taff

[windowseatplease]

As I recall, anyone can "get in", they don't have a selection procedure. If you have enough money, then you're in!

[Smokey009]

Congratulations. I am one of the 'Old Farts' and suggest you are on the right road. I am a bit biased, but believe Bristow is a great outfit to work for and has a great safety record.

[wardy20]

You're right Taff. I am delighted to get it. there was a 2 year waiting list for the combined jaa/faa course so i'm glad to get a foot in the door. and besides, its yee old farts that i'm gonna be learning from, so yee must know a thing or 2..................

[tonge]

I've just visited the Bristow Academy in Titusville and I was really impressed by the operation. It is quite an impressive sight seeing so many helicopters in one place cordinating various training, I felt sorry for the person in the tower!

Having done all my training on Robinson's, It was very intersting to spend some time in a Schweizer, I felt reasonably confident after a short time flying.

The student support staff were great, really helpful, answering all my questions both via email and when I arrived. I would recommend a visit to make your own mind up.

Tonge

Tonge

[student84]

I have been looking at doing Bristow's Pro Pilot Program too (if I can get a place), one thing I am worried about is the prospect of getting a job to build hours afterward considering the current Economic climate. I have about the same ecomomic knowledge as a house brick, so was wondering if anyone had any thourghts on how the economy/fuel prices will effect the US Helicopter Industry in the near future?

[KrisRamJ]

The way I see it, it could work both ways - on one hand there will almost certainly be less flying because it will become more expensive, on the other hand, the offshore business will continue to grow due to investment in the deep water stuff. Helicopter operating costs are less affected by fuel than FW ops because it's a smaller % of our total costs (high maintenance, insurance, etc works in our favour.)

I was at Bristows Academy from March 05 to March 06. As far as beginning training is concerned, be 100% sure in your mind that you want to do this because it's a real battle. First you have the anguish of all the tests and checkrides during your training. When you've worked your heart out and completed your training you have the battle of trying to get your first CFI job. Some of my friends took several months to find their first job, and that really ate into their J-1 visas, and their self-confidence. :(

Once you have landed your first job CFI'ing then you have a very intensive year of students trying to kill you, and then when you reach the 'magic' 1000 hours (and qualify for an entry level turbine job) you have another battle getting a job flying turbines.

Add to this the fact that you are being tested all the time - if you have a bad day in this job your career is over - you could have a student or employer putting pressure on you to fly in marginal weather, you could have miscalculated your fuel burn, you could simply have a mechanical problem that isn't even your fault... there's so many ways these things can get you it's bewildering.

So there's a lot of downsides to this game. :uhoh:

On the other hand, when the weather is nice and the flying is easy, it's about as close as you can get to the best job in the world...

If you love flying, just do it. :ok:

[Stairs]

Hi,

Just started my PPL fixed wing, but heli's is where the heart is. I'm to old to join the boy's in green so would need to fund the training myself. Has anyone on here gone to the US for training (i'm UK based) then had any problems when they got back with hireing on a PPL. I have heard some places just won't let you hire from them? Also, getting a CPLH over there is around 25k rather than the 60k over here, so same question, has anyone done this and had any good / bad experiances?

I suppose the last question is, that I have a pretty well paid job, (I think more than I would earn as a heli pilot for at least 6 years) I dont actually work that hard and travel loads....... Should I give it up to pursue a this dream? What would you do?

Cheers

[Phil77]

A requirement is certainly to work hard (do your research first and THEN ask questions) and to be able to read: http://www.pprune.org/forums/rotorheads/253856-so-you-want-helicopter-pilot.html
Please try that thread first.

good luck! :ok:

[MartinCh]

it's usually 'poor' pilots wanting to be pros for real (especially helis in Europe) who save a lot, sell house or remortgage (the lucky ones) or get wad of money some other way - except Bond's part-sponsoring scheme, there's hardly any sponsorship or cadet scheme (except GAPAN's few freebies to another lucky few) in rotary world at the moment. So there goes damn huge loan option like some youngsters at CTC or OAT have..

People here also tend to say /write/ that rich folks don't need to be pro pilots and REALLY enjoy flying what, when and where to, rather than as a job (doesn't mean it'll have to be mundane, common agreement is that helis are far from mundane 'autopilot on' jobs).
If you can see you'd have to work half decade to get to your current level of earnings, well, it's kinda no-brainer. You either want to fly for fun, or for living. There are FW pilots who took the paycut in order to achieve goals and have even better earnings way further down the line.

It all depends on you. I'll select good school in the US for training (doesn't have to be 6-12 months) you can do few times at once, maybe, depending on your circumstances. Or fly as go in the UK. All up to you.
I wish I could say what you do.

Surely, the sticky thread is first thing to do.
If you started FW PPL, take intro heli ride and then let the bug keep bite more and more. Considerable savings can be made by training helis in the US, for sure. Guess you have idea about hourly rates incl instructor etc.

I've got almost 50 hours into RW PPL (I'm not finishing this year as it seems..) and going to do two nice XC trips before heading back to UK early.
I'm still looking forward to any flying. It's all great. I had some hard work, now I'll have some more fun gliding.

BTW, don't forget to check out the thread 'would you do it all over again knowing what you know now' or this sort, think also purely helicopter one here on Rotorheads. It'll give you an idea of why you may not have to plunge into career when you can really enjoy yourself. You may not do very long XCs in the UK in S300 or R22, but still have fun. Doing 'flying holidays' once you have PPL - even both, FW and RW. Best of both, you'd be able to choose which aircraft where if you do the check-outs and lic revalidations etc.

Off you go reading and searching.. :ok:

[jeepys]

Stairs,

check your Pm's.

Thanks.

[tonge]

Can any CURRENT student(s) at Bristow Academy please send me a PM, I'm after some information about life in Titusville, I start in January 09.

tonge

[bluestack]

ha ha, life in Titsville....you'll get loads of studying done....

[Gordy]

I'm thinking most people in Titusville are dealing with Fay right now---hence the lack of response.

I have a house for sale in T'ville if you're interested.......

[R1Tamer]

Gordy,

Which realtor is your house with. I'm back in the UK at the moment looking for an investment property in Titusville specifically. It very much depends on the area it's located in though.

Feel free to PM me.

R1Tamer

[tonge]

Has everyone emerged from the storm shelters yet?? Any current students want to give me any hints or tips on life at Bristow Academy??

Tonge

[dnheli]

Hello PPRuNers;

I'm a U.S. helicopter ATP looking for work since my corporate department is closing. There appear to be overseas opportunities in a wide range of sectors and locations, but my main question now surrounds 'doing it right', that is, having proper work visa, certification, etc to legally do the work.

Having no experience with this, I'm wondering what the collective intel is on the topic, ie should I stay home and not steal jobs from locals, can I work for a time period on a US certificate, and so forth?

Any web site referrals for research are appreciated as well as any other guidance on the topic, narrowly or broadly.

Thank you very much.

[darrenphughes]

What countries tickle your fancy? Immigration & license conversion can be tricky, depending on where you plan on going. Better to be more specific.

[rick1128]

There are several websites that advertise for non-national pilots. climbto350.com and jsfirm.com are two of them. As for certificates, it really depends on the country and the time period of the contract. Usually the company looking for pilots, they usually use a headhunter firm to do the advertising and selection, will take care of the validations. It has been my experience that since they will have to deal with the powers that be directly anyway, they generally start the process. You will be asked to provide copies of your certificates, medical, training records, last proficiency check (pc), passport and the last several pages of your logbook, certified.

My experience has been you will have a contract which will spell out the responsibilities of both parties. IMPORTANT! Get a copy to read over well before signing it. Get all problem areas sorted out and changed IN THE CONTRACT If you don't understand something, get it explained to your understanding, before signing. Trust me, they will hold you to the contract you signed. If and when you go on contract, leave a full copy of the contract at home and take a copy with you. It will prove helpful when they try to jigger with the contract on you. And there are places that try. Also get a good handle on your accommodations if they provide that for you. Get it explained in full and if possible pictures and address. I have stayed at one place that made a South Alabama trailer park look GOOOOOOOOOD!

As for JAA being more advanced, I personally differ with that. More restrictive, yes. More advanced? I don't think so. If it was so great, why doesn't Canada adopt it? The JAA tells you what you can do. The FAA and TC tell what you can't do. There is a big difference.

[rick1128]

Um,

Over the years I have gotten a lot of nonsense from JAA pilots about how the JAA system is much better. Of course, none of them had ever held an FAA certificate or supported their current certificate on their own. I have acted as an FO on a sim ride for a JAA required ride. Compared to 135 PIC ride or a FAA type ride, it was a joke.

It is really interesting to watch the attitude of some JAA folks. They raise a ruckus when a American pilot does a short term contract in Europe, usually to protect the JAA pilots' job. Then whine when they are told they are not really wanted over here. Interesting.

[hostile]

I moved from JAA world to here in USA last year and working now a big company with FAA licenses. I have 18 years experience with European system, and when they got JAA regulations it went crazy. Regulations are same for everybody and all countries which are implemented those should use them equally. It wont happen.:ugh:

Now, I have to say that here in FAA world things goes easier, but still in safe way. There are no any hassle with type ratings (when needed) or any other aircraft trainings. And what is important for individual pilot, this system is 5-6 time cheaper to have licenses like ATP and IR. I paid $8500 for IR ticket. In JAA system it will take maybe around 30 000 to 45 000 Euros! ( $40k -55k) Same result; I work IFR operations and like everywhere, companies gives you Initial (and recurrent) trainings before and between work.

I am happy,:)

Hostile

[dnheli]

Thank you all for the swift, informative comments.

Right now the only country of prospective interest is India, one job with very few details but might be interesting as a family member goes there on consulting work often and perhaps we could spend more time together that way.

Otherwise, I'm just trying to research as broadly as possible, in case nothing works out for me locally, what with the US financial crisis and all. I want to know if I am comfortable taking overseas work and for me part of that is knowing the risks, benefits, etc.

Several folks here and in other phone calls have indicated that the worry over paperwork is taken care of by the employer, be it licenses or work visa. Probably if I choose such and option it should be with a larger firm until I learn the ropes better. Not good to be stuck overseas on a contract loophole that I didn't see from lack of experience!

Something still might open for me here locally or elsewhere in the states, whether a long commute and weeks on/off, but again, trying to be as best prepared for as many possibilities as I can.

Thanks again.

[hammerhead70]

rick 1128:

Ahhh...here we go again! The typical biased opinion of an American pilot, based on...NOTHING but one individual experience on a sim ride. Nice!!! Before you make such comments you should get ALL the facts together though. The FAA ATP written exam can easily be done by rote learning because you can buy the Test prep with all the questions and answers...big deal! Try that with the JAA written exam for the ATP!
BTW, I do hold a FAA ATP, a TC ATP and a JAA ATP. Many of the European colleagues I have met do have a FAA license as well because they did their initial training in the US. They certainly know what they are talking about when they compare the two systems. Do you hold a JAA license?
I also worked as CFI in the States and I will attest any JAA ATP a much better general aviation knowledge than their FAA counterparts ten fold. Let's not even talk about the practical side. FAA IFR check flight...possible to do in an R22!?! And right after that you can show up in the GOM and "try" your luck, or should we say "push" it!? If you want to fly IFR in the North Sea...you get your multiengine type rating first and then do a multiengine IFR check flight before you are allowed to fly SIC for a while.

Yes...the JAA is much more regulated. But, is that really a disadvantage? Look at the recent accident rates in the GOM and compare those to the North Sea.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/research/otopdf/2000/oto00089.pd

Human Factors in Offshore Aviation (http://www.hartaviation.com.au/cms/details.asp?NewsID=90)

http://www.hsac.org/Minutes/GOMAcc99_04.pdf

And at last...how many European pilots have you really met, who were even thinking about giving up their jobs in the North Sea and fly in the GOM or somewhere else in the US?
Remuneration for a multiengine IFR Captain in the GOM does not even come close to what a Captain in the North Sea makes! So why would anybody with a sane mind want to give up a job in the civilized world and move to the swamps of Louisiana? Besides that...it is nearly impossible for somebody who is not a US citizen to get a working permit as a helicopter pilot in the US. The guys you are referring to are usually foreign low time pilots trying to built time in the US!
Personally... I don't give a :mad:, because living and working in your glorious country would be the last item on my list...right after flying a clapped out 212 on one engine in the most corrupt, muggiest :mad: you can imagine!

:p:p:p

[inputshaft]

Hammerhead 70

You know, your own post is exceptionally biased and seemingly based on nothing more than working "as a CFI in the States" and a few standard jibes at the VFR part of the GOM.

Also a FAA, Transport Canada and CAA ATP ....... and a Brit

[hammerhead70]

Really??? And your statement is based on what information? If we knew each other you would know that my experience expands far beyond "just working as a CFI in the States" and a few jibes at the VFR part of the GOM!
It's just funny how a guy like Rick1128 gets away with such a stupid comment, basically insulting everybody who holds a JAA license by calling them "whiners" who raise a ruckus when an American pilot does a short term contract in Europe. If that's the case, I'm sure there is a reason for it! Undermining current remuneration standards comes to mind right away! And again...how many US citizens do you know, who work in JAA land as helicopter pilots?
We all know how welcome foreigners are in the US. Just remember the last time you were waiting in line trying to get through Immigration! Why is there no legal way to get a working permit in the US as a helicopter pilot other than getting married there? Feel free to prove me wrong!

There are many differences between the two systems. You can like one better than the other, but that's personal preference! I don't agree with the bureaucracy and the costs in Europe either, but to say that the JAA ride is a joke compared to the FAA 135 ride is just ludicrous! Everybody who has gone through both check rides knows that!
Maybe you would like to comment the development of accidents in the GOM and the US air ambulance industry over the past few years?! I would say there could be quite a few people still be alive, if the FAA had not left so many areas grey and open for interpretation.

I know I'm biased, but that's just because I don't like to be called a "whiner" by a "yankee" who thinks he invented rotary wing aviation!

[IntheTin]

Um... lifting...


Great post..:ok:

[darrenphughes]

Unless one has some emotional connection to the N. Sea as an American, it seldom makes sense to pursue a JAA license, relocate, pay a much higher level of tax to live in a place that is much more expensive than the US. At the end of the day, you have less money... as an American.

Yeah, but you get to multiply it by 2 when changing it into dollars!!!:}

[hammerhead70]

Um...lifting...

Great rhetorical post indeed...but as I said...it's rhetorical and just because you are writing it like that doesn't mean that you are right nor do you provide proof for your points!
Using terms like "objective"...make sure you know what it means and apply it equally to me and yourself and send your bud Rick a copy of it too! He certainly needs it!
Your own and Rick's response tell us one thing though! Everything that you are unable to achieve or is different from you or your system over there CAN NOT be right and therefore will be offended, ridiculed or destroyed. The best example for that is your pals Rick1128 post here.


"The truest characters of ignorance are vanity, and pride and arrogance." - Samuel Butler

:)

[Senior Pilot]

I think that's enough of the playground behaviour, thanks very much :rolleyes:

There is so much garbage over the past week that this very valuable thread is on the verge of some very severe ppruning: which will benefit no one. First and final warning :=

[heliman500]

Hammerhead70, you quoted:

"Look at the recent accident rates in the GOM and compare those to the North Sea"

So i did.....

In the Gulf of Mexico alone there is 58% of the worlds offshore flying, compared to that of the N.Sea where its just 10% (that almost x6 exposure time). Based on this fact alone i think you'll find that its almost obvious to say why there may be more accidents in the Gulf of Mexico. I think its also important to factor in the type of flying that is conducted; the majority of the flying in the GOM is 'field work' where a pilot maybe making 50-60 take-offs & landing a day, compared to that in the N. Sea where it averages about six. As we are all aware; take-off & landings are the most critical portion of any flight and its at this point which most of all accidents occur. With that being said; it is to be expected that more accidents will occur in the GOM at this critical point in flight. You also have to remember that the majority of the flying in the Gulf of Mexico is performed with single engine, which further adds to the risks involved.

I also found this information in the web link you provided:..."the fatal accident rate in the Gulf of Mexico was very close to, and sometimes marginally better than, the experience in the rest of the world"

[hammerhead70]

heliman500:

and the article continues:

2003, however, was a watershed year. The US-based Helicopter Safety Advisory Conference (HSAC) Helicopter Operations and Safety Review 2003 reported in relation to helicopter operations in the Gulf: ‘This was the worst overall accident record in the 20 years since we began gathering data, with the highest number of fatal events (seven) and total fatalities (12), and second highest number of total accidents (15).'

In the five-year period up to and including 2003, there were a total of 47 helicopter accidents in the Gulf of Mexico of which 14 were fatal, resulting in 19 fatalities and 42 injuries. These accidents can be described as follows:

Pilot procedures:
• nine were the result of loss of control or improper procedure;
• five were the result of controlled flight into terrain or water—three occurred at night;
• five were the result of helideck obstacle strikes;
• five were from tie-down procedures, loose cargo and an onshore obstacle strike; and
• one was the result of fuel starvation.

And...one should be very careful by comparing those statistics...I agree! You can really only compare accidents or fatalities per flown hour and then break it further down into single engine, multi engine etc. North Sea operations are mainly conducted in heavy or medium multi engine aircraft. Their counterparts in the GOM have similar or even better "good" statistics.

I don't think that there is more morons flying around in FAA land than anywhere else and I never said that here. But...according to the statistics there is a trend for those accidents and it is going up. The EMS industry is showing the same trend as well. Read it yourself and maybe do your own research!

Fact Sheet - EMS Helicopter Safety (http://www.faa.gov/news/fact_sheets/news_story.cfm?newsId=6763)


The FAA and other involved authorities are trying to evaluate and solve that problem because that trend in modern day aviation is unacceptable! I'm sure they are looking at every possible aspect of it. That may be the rule and regulation making process, operational procedures or pilot training and licensing. And that's where my point is! To say, under the evidence of those accident trends, that the JAA licensing compared to the FAA is nonsense and the FAA rule making is "more advanced" or the JAA check rides are a joke, is quite a steep statement, especially when the person who makes that statement openly admits that he doesn't even hold the JAA license. Both systems have their flaws and the Europeans like their bureaucracy there is no doubt and I don't support that because it does cost me too!

I also disagree with the statement that there is no correlation between the ability to pass a series of written examinations (which forces you to know your stuff rather than remember the answers and forget most of the material after two weeks) and the safe operation of an aircraft. There is! Being a good stick jiggler is only one part of the equation and is rather insignificant unless your are working 2 feet beside a live power line or with a 200 foot longline pulling wood every day. One of the other ingredients is knowledge. Knowledge leads to experience which hopefully leads to better decision making and ultimately to more safety and less accidents! I haven't heard of any accidents caused by the pilot being a "rough stick", but how many accidents have you heard of who were related to pilot decision making!?


As for other FAA licensed pilots working overseas...I believe that aviation is a global business. The fact that I can work in many places around the world with people from other countries, be that from wherever they are, is great and I enjoy that a lot! Heck...I left my own county years ago to go after my dream and get my initial training in the US. And even though it has nothing to do with the FAA, I do think that the US Immigration law is quite a bit over protective when it comes to foreigners trying to work as helicopter pilots in the US. It's certainly far from "equal rights" to all of us.

And it just boggles my mind when I hear this:

Quote Rick1128: "Over the years I have gotten a lot of nonsense from JAA pilots about how the JAA system is much better. Of course, none of them had ever held an FAA certificate or supported their current certificate on their own. I have acted as an FO on a sim ride for a JAA required ride. Compared to 135 PIC ride or a FAA type ride, it was a joke.

It is really interesting to watch the attitude of some JAA folks. They raise a ruckus when a American pilot does a short term contract in Europe, usually to protect the JAA pilots' job. Then whine when they are told they are not really wanted over here. Interesting."



Anybody who is looking for some honest advice about getting a license be it FAA, TC or JAA or working overseas feel free to ask in a respectful manner. I've worked in the US, Canada, Asia and Europe.

Cheers and fly safe!

[rickorob]

Check out Welcome To Vertical Air Services (http://www.verticalairservices.com) They have one R22 in Bend, Oregon and one R44 in Key West....They are cheap...Two guys started it, got sick of over priced corporate schools....Part 61 so you can build time if you are foreign but not any ratings.

[206Fan]

Check out Welcome To Vertical Air Services (http://www.verticalairservices.com/)

wowww 65,000 Dollars for the whole lot, thats only 40,000 Uk Pounds. Flipn hekkk..

[Bravo73]

Two guys started it

Hmmm, you wouldn't just happen to be one of those 'two guys', would you? :suspect:

[darrenphughes]

Check out Welcome To Vertical Air Services (http://www.verticalairservices.com/)Ok, so that just doesn't seem right to me. Guaranteeing that you will finish up your CFII and a Turbine transition for $65,000 and saying that there are no hidden fees, even if you go over the FAA minimum requirements seems like it is too good to be true. It's pretty much the same as guaranteeing someone a job as a CFI in your school, once they're done with their training.

I suggest to anyone that is signing up for this course to read the fine print very carefully. Or better yet, take the school contract to a lawyer to read it over and have them explain it to you. This promise, that they're giving you could put a small school out of business very quickly if they got the wrong student(s).

Althought it doesn't happen very often, you will have people from time to time struggle with getting all their ratings in under 200 hours. So lets say you have a student that takes 250 hours to get finished up. These guys are basically saying that they will absorb the extra cost of these extra hours. What if it takes someone 300 hours to become ready to pass their CFI checkride? That's a lot of money, and I doubt any small business or any large business in it's right mind could or would absorb these extra costs.

Whatever you do, if you do sign up with these guys, don't pay all up front. Because if the school does have the bad fortune of having a particularly dense student(or worse, a couple of them) then those guys will be eating into all the money that you put up front for your training and before long, VOILA, you have another Silver State Helicopters situation on your hands, all be it on a much smaller scale. But if a school does close up shop still owing you anywhere between $1,000 to 65,000, that is never small scale for someone who is trying to become a pilot.

Now I stand to be corrected, like always, but this site has tripped some of my common sense alarm bells and I urge everyone to approach it with caution. Otherwise, it does seem like a really good deal when the Turbine Time is thrown in!!!

[206Fan]

Otherwise, it does seem like a really good deal when the Turbine Time is thrown in!!!

Yea thats were my mouth hit the floor, when i read that..

[anti-talk]

Key West doesnt seem to be that good of a choice for a training location.

Key West Airport is bordered by the Key West NAS that would make volume solo patterns a little challenging.
Water all around except for the little chain of Islands up to Miami makes cross country options a little limited.
Accomodation is very expensive down there and the airport is some distance away from the town.
The drive from Miami is around 3.5 hours making it a long drive after a flight.
Not many other training airports close by without a long expensive ferry up the Island Chain.
Key West is a cool place for a 'one off' cross country but the busy airpace on the main part of florida offers many more options for a better training environment and better all round flying experience.
Turbine transition in the US is somewhat useless unless you have 1,000 hrs PIC and at that point most employers will pay for it for you.

The other training location suffers badly from weather and would restrict the number of 'flyable' days. Today its forcast dense fog initially followed by 25 kt winds later when the fog clears.

The distance between both locations is huge thus limiting the chances to move students between both sites.

Otherwise a 'pretty' website

[helipilotaz]

Hey there!!

I am hoping that someone has first hand or second hand knowledge of Corporate Helicopters in San Diego.

I am a private pilot looking to get commercial and IR, and am considering Corporate for my training.

I would love any feedback.

Thanks!!

[hobiecat]

Hey guys,

Where would the best place be in the States be to aquire an FAA ATPL licence. I've tryed contacting Hillsboro in Oregan but they have not responded. :ugh:Is there any other decent schools around that provide FAA ATPL training? Recommendations please? :ok:

[rick1128]

HC,

You might look at Salaika Aviation out of Texas. Their website is Salaika Aviation Helicopter Flight Training (http://www.salaikaaviation.com/). I used them for my Instrument and CFII. They are small enough to be fairly flexible.

[rotors88]

Check out Ben (owner & CEO) from Mauna Loa Helicopter Training Schools (http://www.maunaloahelicopters.com/) Great crew, great location, very professional & helpful bunch. I did my ATPL(H) there & was very happy with the whole package. PM me if you want more details. Cheers

[lelebebbel]

Where would the best place be in the States be to aquire an FAA ATPL licence. I've tryed contacting Hillsboro in Oregan

Hillsboro Aviation in Oregon is closed this week, just like most businesses here, because we got 12+ inches of snow here over the weekend and the city doesn't have snow plows, so nobody can get to work...
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3128/3126161720_0f845619fd.jpg

I'm sure they'll get back to you as soon as they can.

[airbourne]

I see there is a few deals on flights to the US at the moment. Looking for a school operating the R44 near orlando if anyone knows of anywhere. SPL with about 40 hours, looking for a few hours with an instructor for a bit of fun flying. Anyone have any ideas?

[anti-talk]

Check your pms, we are close to orlando

[airbourne]

Nothing there!

[206Fan]

Airbourne

Cloud9 helicopters west palm beach:ok:

[anti-talk]

screwed up - sent you a pm now.
Regards
Geoff

[kianus]

I would say we got more like 3-4 inches of snow in Hillsboro, OR.
Americans does not know how to deal with snow :)

[lelebebbel]

3-4"? You obviously weren't there on the 23rd when we shoveled the stuff off the ramp... The weather guy said Portland got 16", the most ever recorded there.

Americans does not know how to deal with snow
Well, not in the pacific northwest at least.

[darrenphughes]

Quote:
Americans does not know how to deal with snow
Well, not in the pacific northwest at least.

Try the guys in the North East! They'll give you some tips!!

[DirtyB]

I'm considering getting my commercial helicopter license. However, one of the main sticking points for me is my inability to relocate far from my current home in Northern California. There are schools nearby so the training side of things wouldnt be a problem. My concern is what will happen once I accrue enough hours and start looking for my first job. Is it reasonable to expect to find a position where I could work something like a 14 on/14 off schedule and fly in and out of the job location every couple weeks?

[darrenphughes]

Hi DirtyB,
If you go to this link So you want to become a helicopter pilot....... (http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/253856-so-you-want-helicopter-pilot.html) . It's also a sticky at the top of the rotorheads forum. Pretty much everything you'd need to know is in there. If you have more questions after reading that, then by all means ask away.

But for a short answer to your question, your first job as a helicopter pilot will more than likely be as a flight instructor until you get yourself about a thousand or twelve hundred hours under your belt. That takes about 11/2 to 2 years after qualifing as a flight instructor. Then you can move on to a job that lets you do 14 and 14, flying to oil rigs in the Gulf Of Mexico(GOM) or something like that.

P.S: Welcome to Rotorheads, and I love your choice of screen name!!!:ok:

[DirtyB]

Sorry I should have been more specific. When I said first job I meant first "real" job. As in already done the instructor route and have gotten to around 1000 hours.
I've looked through the majority of the thread that you are referring to, as well as doing other research, and haven't found exactly the answer i'm looking for. It may very well be in there and I just missed it. If anyone can shed some light on the situation it would be appreciated.

[darrenphughes]

Alright, so you've got your thousand or so. It's probably time to look into the GOM or Vegas tours or something like that. Find out what the hiring minimums are for the big players in that area of the industry that you're interested. Once you meet them, follow their guidelines for applying to them for employment.

I've PM'd you some links that will give you more info for this stuff. Having trained for 200+ hours and instructed through 800 odd hours over the past number of years, I would find it hard to believe that you haven't picked up some contacts along the way that would be able to hook you up with an interview or 2. It's time to start making those calls!!

[Gordy]

haven't found exactly the answer i'm looking for

What ARE you looking for? Maybe you should consider another career. You state you cannot re-locate---Kind of tough in the helicopter industry to be that specific. If you lived in Southern Louisiana, maybe we could guarantee you would not have to relocate---but help us out here....Where in Nor-cal are you?

[HillerBee]

DirtyB,

First you say you want to do the Commercial Helicopter, and when you accrued enough hours etc, etc. Then you state you've already done the instructor route and have a thousand hours?! Which is clearly impossible if you don't have a commercial. Maybe you have a fixed wing cpl/cfi but those hours won't help you.

Until you have a few thousand hours you will have to move where the jobs are, that's what helicopter pilots do.

[darrenphughes]

I'm considering getting my commercial helicopter license.

Huh, I had forgotten that he said that initially. Maybe it's some sort of really bad wind up. Or maybe he's a journalist, that would explain it!!

[Gordy]

From what I can tell---he is talking about first "real job" assuming one has a thousand hours----he obviously does not see being a CFI as a real job.

[DirtyB]

What ARE you looking for?

What I AM looking for an answer to this question:
Does everyone that works in this industry live near the base? Considering that a lot of operators work 7/7 or 14/14 shifts is it feasible to live in your current location and then fly to and from the base?

Obviously it would be ideal to live nearby but i have more then myself to consider.

First you say you want to do the Commercial Helicopter, and when you accrued enough hours etc, etc. Then you state you've already done the instructor route and have a thousand hours

I'm considering getting my commercial helicopter license. However, one of the main sticking points for me is my inability to relocate far from my current home in Northern California.

I never said i have any hours. :ugh:

Until you have a few thousand hours you will have to move where the jobs are, that's what helicopter pilots do.

Thats pretty much what I was afraid of.

Where in Nor-cal are you?

I live in San Francisco. Between ENG, tours, and police work there is a good amount of helicopter traffic. Especially when you add in Oakland and the surronding areas. However, I realize there is no way I would get any of those positions right after being a CFI.

[No-ID]

"Between ENG, tours, and police work there is a good amount of helicopter traffic. Especially when you add in Oakland and the surronding areas. However, I realize there is no way I would get any of those positions right after being a CFI."

Yes you can get these positions after working as a CFI, but police might not be too easy to get into.

As said before, you should be willing to travel anywhere!

[darrenphughes]

When I said first job I meant first "real" job. As in already done the instructor route and have gotten to around 1000 hours.Alright, we managed to mangle what you said into us thinking that you had around 1000 hours. Sorry about that.

Having done my training in Fresno, there didn't seem like too many options in that area after instructing. Most of my buddies moved away to either Vegas or the Gulf. I do know one girl who went instructing down in L.A and has gotten into some sort of tour flying through her contacts. I know one other who got to do some frost protection flying which is pretty common around your area in the winter. Through that kind of work you could make the contacts needed to end up flying AG. But with AG flying, be prepared to spend at least a year on the ground doing the grunt work before they let you start flying for them(You may get to ferry the ship to and from the site).

What I AM looking for an answer to this question:
Does everyone that works in this industry live near the base? Considering that a lot of operators work 7/7 or 14/14 shifts is it feasible to live in your current location and then fly to and from the base?There are many people doing 14 & 14 in the GOM and flying home to Califorina and all the other parts of the country for their down time. You just have to set aside $10K - $15K or so per year for travel. Maybe someone else can be more specific with the actual costs of doing that kind of travel to Northern Cali. I don't know of any doing that in Vegas though. Vegas tends to be a regular work week where you only get 1 or 2 days off each week.

Does this answer your question?

[The Guardian]

Does anyone know if there is a place in the Los Angeles area where I could do my instrument training in a 300C? Seems like the majority of the schools use the R44 with a few using R22's. Would prefer to continue to fly the 300C hence the original question.

Thanks

[Stoey]

The Guardian.
If you google 300CB Van Nuys, there should be a school, I know nothing about the school, just saw it on the Interweb a couple of weeks ago.

[The Guardian]

Thank you Stoey,

Right now there seems to be three schools out of Van Nuys: Group 3, Orbic Air and Twin Air... all teach Instrument in the R44. Group 3 has three or four CBI heli's but they are not full instrument equipped... Orbic has one 300C but I have not seen the ship in person yet to see what instruments it has but was told that they teach instrument in the R44. Twin Air is all Robinson. So in the end, it may just have to be in a R44, but I'm old fashioned and like the cyclic between my legs, lol, have never liked the whole Robinson teetering t-bar set up :ugh: and I don't plan on flying Robbies after the whole affair, so don't care about Robinson hours.... so I guess we'll see, if I track one down I'll post it here...

[inputshaft]

Try Civic Helicopters in San Diego. They have had an excellent reputation for years and, I believe, do instrument training in a 300.

[The Guardian]

Thanks Inputshaft,

Civic seems like quite a respectable outfit, definitely seems like a good option.

[SASless]

This program being allied with a State Supported College should (fingers crossed) a professional program with good oversight of the operation. One would be wise to do an assessment prior to committing any money to the operation.

College of Sequoias Launches Helicopter Flight Training Program in Visalia and Paso Robles, California
Friday, April 10, 2009 - College of Sequoias



The College of the Sequoias is proud to announce the addition of a new helicopter flight training program. The college is partnering with Blue Sky Aviation of Tulare, California to bring this unique training program to Central California. Blue Sky Aviation has a reputation for integrity and quality instruction that made them a natural partner in this venture.

The new program will offer a certificate and associate of science degree as a professional pilot – helicopter. All courses and training are FAA Part 141 approved. This program was designed as a fast-paced academy format. The total completion time is 9 1/2 months to earn all pilot ratings up to certified flight instructor – instrument. Students complete both flight and ground instruction through the college. After completing the helicopter pilot courses, students may then complete their general education courses to earn an associate degree. It is important to get students the helicopter flying skills first, so the students can work as flight instructors to build experience while completing their general education requirements.

To insure that all students have access to acceptable weather, the college will operate concurrently in Paso Robles and Visalia, California. Tule fog settles in the central San Joaquin Valley during the winter months, making training unpredictable at the Visalia campus. As a result, classes have been structured to avoid training during the months of December, January and February in Visalia.

Housing is available for students in the Paso Robles campus, so students can relocate easily. Paso Robles is located within 30 miles of the Pacific Ocean, but protected from coastal fog affecting most of California's coastline. With over 340 days of sunshine, students in Paso Robles essentially do not have weather restrictions and make it an ideal flight training location.

The school has significant financial aid resources available to help keep the training costs low for students. In addition to federal grants and scholarships, the school has access to several lending institutions that are still willing to support accredited college programs. While students still have access to the SallieMae career training loan, there are other lending options available to flight training students at the College of the Sequoias.

Veterans may use their benefits at the College of the Sequoias program to save 60% on all training costs beyond the private pilot certificate. This savings, coupled with other financial aid, make the out of pocket cost for veterans significantly lower than non GI Bill eligible students.

International students are welcome to train under the College's F-1 Visa program. Students may stay for up to 4 years while they are enrolled in courses leading to a degree. During this time, students may work in their degree field to build experience. The school is currently working on work-study programs for qualified foriegn nationals that participate in the training program allowing non U.S. citizens to build experience as part of the training program. It is expected this training component will be available in 2010.

Classes start June 8th, 2009 at both Paso Robles and Visalia.


College of Sequoias Launches Helicopter Flight Training Program in Visalia and Paso Robles, California (http://www.verticalmag.com/control/news/templates/?a=10526)

[heliwanab]

anyone done some or all training with the helicopter academy in palm beach?also known as boat-pix.com
would like to hear about good and bad experiences

especially before i spend my life savings(and a few more besides)from zero to helo,pilot :ok:

[stringfellow]

not familiar with boat pix but done some hour building with ocean helicopters at west palm beach..... perhaps they have changed names???? all good there and i hear good reports from cloud 9 who operate from the same air field.

[Whirlygig]

As far I am aware, Boatpix is a separate company to Ocean Helicopters.

Heliwanab, are you after an FAA licence or JAA as boatpix don't do JAA.

The main issue with Boatpix has been JAA hour-building pilots logging PIC time under FAA rules; you'll need to be clear which licence you wish to obtain and how you want to use that licence.

Cheers

Whirls

[bluestack]

As an ex-instructor at Ocean, I can tell you they are seperate from Boatpix.

All I can (unbiasedly) recommend is phone around.

I say that (biasedly), because I have a great respect for Ocean, as do many others in the industry, and think you'll be impressed.

I'll say no more.....

[stringfellow]

il second that i found the whole faa versus jaa thing a mine field and to this day do not understand it all..... i did some robinson training at ocean and it was a productive time.... although i logged the hours in my book they did not count towards hours for my r22 r44 type conversion. no training is wasted in my book its all good.... i did go on the impression that the hours would count towards my type rating though.

so before parting with cash establish exactly which licence you want before going for it.

[Rudiger]

Does anyone know if a JAA licence holder can legally hour build in the US or do they need to convert their licence to an FAA one?

[206Fan]

You need to convert to FAA.

heliwanab

Give cloud9 a shout :ok:

Dave

[Lude-og]

Yea, i'd second Dave on that, I'm at Cloud9 at the moment, got nothing but good things to say about them to be honest. And I did look around.
Thats my 2 cents as they say!

Good Luck with whatever you choose.

[choppertop]

I did 100hrs of time building with Boatpix last summer. I also did a bunch of hour building at Cloud 9. Both companies I can recommend as honest and fair.

[Trans Lift]

One of the instructors I work with did some work with Boatpixs last year. He enjoyed it. Mainly do your own thing and you fly a lot too. Early mornings to late evening taking pics all over the place. Doesn't sound too bad to me. There was something that you had to buy 100 hours first and then you start to get paid after that. Another guy built over 700 hours with them in 7-8 months. Pretty good going. :ok:

[Torquetalk]

Does anyone know if a JAA licence holder can legally hour build in the US or do they need to convert their licence to an FAA one?

You DON'T need to convert. If you're a licensed helicopter pilot hours flown are hours flown.

BUT, hours don't count for a type rating below 500 on type, and to SFH you need to get an FAA licence issued on the basis of your JAA licence at the local flight safety office and post-911 there are a whole load of security checks to be carried out first.

AND If the hours are supposed to be part of a JAR course and aren't, guess what? They don't count :ok:

AND As Whirlygig said, FAA & JAA definitions of loggable PIC differ. Under JAR only one pilot can log PIC in an SP helicopter. So that would be the higher-time Boatix CFI unless you are specifically nominated as arcraft commander and have responsibility for the flight.

TT

[idle stop]

I have a UK ATPL(H) and have been making enquiries of operators in the Chicago area regarding an FAA PPL(H) conversion. Pretty simple process, it seems, (and noted the TSA/Visa requirements) but absolutely ZILCH interest by the two local advertisers. Eventually got a half-hearted and half-complete response from one of them: still waiting for the rest of the info. Customer Relations? 0/10.
Here in UK schools are falling over themselves to get business...any business. I'm surprised if this poor response should prove to be a general attitude in The States. Or perhaps they only want Alien business when there's a full licence course involved.
Chicago area would suit me fine, as I'm visiting there anyway in October, but any comments or suggestions welcome.
TIA.

[Yabadoo]

Hi,

I am looking for a serious and professional flight school to train for my FAA CPL(H).
(JAA Conversion when back in Europe)

Any recommendations?

Do anyone have experience with Cloud 9 Helicopters in West Palm Beach?


Thanks,

Yabadoo, RW-Candidate:-)

[Yabadoo]

Sorry Guys,

A lot of questions answered by clicking my way through Heliports thread above:-)

Yabadoo

[squib66]

Why not do the whole thing at Bristow Academy?

[stringfellow]

i will second that... do the whole lot at bristow.

[Trans Lift]

I'll third that. You should be able to walk right into a JAA course there now, with numbers being down!!

[helirally]

I have just done FAA(IR) and CPL at cloud 9 and have to say they were fantastic with me. I believe that you can also do JAA theory consol weeks there and take exams at Bristow, if you study with Phil Croucher at CAPT. PM me if you want any more info, i will be only to glad to help. Or speak to Geoff at Cloud 9.

[gwelo shamwari]

If you are looking for a world class operation and one that will for sure get you from zero the helo pilot extraordinaire (FAA or JAA) its Bristow Academy in Florida.

It is a good school and very well recognized around the world.

[Need money]

Advice please...

I am currently a JAA PPL(H) holder and I might be taking a business trip to San Jose in early December. If I wanted to SFH what would I need to do...

JUST to SFH I guess I don't need to convert to an FAA licence... do I just need to fill in some securty clearance (TSA?) Can you advise what exactly this entails....and how long it takes to do

2nd: Anyone know where I can SFH an R22 around San Jose / San Francisco ?


Many thanks

[apb]

Hi, I tried to contact with Fly Orlando and this mail: [email protected] give me an error. I searched in their web but It only have a form for US citizens and I am european citizen. Anyone know a good mail?.

Thanks

[7heaven]

hi all, just getting my cash sorted to do CPL (H) in Florida. There's a school there and just wondering if they are any good??
ORLANDO FLIGHT TRAINING in Orlando. They are offering a cpl 150 hours course (I know it might take longer) for $28,595 plus accommadation.:suspect:

Just wondering if they are a good school or they're not?!:confused:

any takers?

7H

[RaymondKHessel]

You might also want to consider Helicopter Academy. After finishing your CFI, they hire you to fly photo contracts, so you can build considerably more time. In this economy, getting past 200 hours is the major challenge you'll face.

[7heaven]

i'm a uk citizen, i might have trouble getting hired as i only will have a student VISA?
did you find out about ORLANDO FLIGHT SCHOOL?

[Sweet Potatos]

Is that not the FAA Course mate?

Need to do JAA unless you plan on marrying an American lass :ok:

May have to budget a bit more cash for the conversion, or look at doing JAA CPL.

[7heaven]

i thought about doing the JAA but i found out the cost.:{
i was thinking doing the FAA zero to cpl in orlando. the course should bring me up to 150 hours.
then when i come back to the uk and do the groundschool for JAA ATPL (Bristow sounds good).
the only questions is, how much air time in the UK do i have to do once i come back from USA?:confused: and price would be nice?
and what other things do i need to do this?????
cheers,

7H

[General Mutley]

Hi all,
Has anyone recently used Orlando Flight Training for hourbilding/CPL H training in the R22?
Any feedback would be appreciated.
Cheers :ok:

[7heaven]

hi,
thats the place i'm looking to do my ppl,cpl. i don't know what they are like but i'm going there in 24 Jan 2010 just to see(also a little holiday) . maybe look at other schools around the area too.

i like to know where all my money is going before i pay.
when was you thinking of starting?

7H

[TheFunCooker]

You might both consider Helicopter Academy. Given the state of the economy, finding work after your CPLH is the challenge, and HA hires their graduates for aerial photography work. I know they work with non-citizens too. Of course, if you aren't going for the magic 1000 hours...

[Trans Lift]

Or Bristow Academy. Closer to the beach too :ok:

[General Mutley]

Cheers everyone. I will be going in jan or maybe feb for a month or two.

[MartinCh]

hmm. how much of sales tax, checkride fees, pre/post-flights, ground school, etc included?
USD 30k for 150h of training, even if 'minimum' dual instruction (oh, not that smart or likely) and rest banging round solo, still.
Is that for ab initio heli training or they expect you to have some fixed wing time or PPL? That'd be more realistic. Anyway, FAA cross-crediting of PIC and TT hours is nice for CPLs, but may not get you to required standard in chopper cockpit doing 'add-on' ratings.

Don't forget all quotes (based on mins) tend to be unrealistic. Plus, Florida schools don't have the lowest rates for rotary training out of the whole USA anyway. Not that it varies wildly.. all the stuff like sales tax, fuel surcharge, briefings, adequate ground if required, etc, adds up.


Training in USA

hi all, just getting my cash sorted to do CPL (H) in Florida. There's a school there and just wondering if they are any good??
ORLANDO FLIGHT TRAINING in Orlando. They are offering a cpl 150 hours course (I know it might take longer) for $28,595 plus accommadation.http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/cwm13.gif



As for Helicopter Academy, people may get away with some 'pay to fly' hours for heli pilots, students etc, but strictly speaking it's still work for comm company.. Even if unpaid..

[7heaven]

MartinCh (http://www.pprune.org/members/181047-martinch)

Just wondering where else (if there is) to fly? what schools? :confused:
i don't mind going anywhere just want to train.

have you been to any of those places?

cheers
7H

[Lord Mount]

7Heaven,

I did my training at Dutch Country Helicopters in Pennsylvania.
Loved it!

LM

[Whirlygig]

The Amercians may have the daftest system for sales tax in the world but at least they don't charge it on flight training.

Cheers

Whirls

[Gordy]

Whirls:

The Amercians may have the daftest system for sales tax in the world but at least they don't charge it on flight training.

Yep, only on books and supplies.

[7heaven]

Hi all.

Cheers for all the replies. You all have been very helpful.:ok:
I will still be going over to Florida to ask some long, hard questions about their schools.
Who knows, i might travel to see all different schools:suspect:, (yer right, lol). just the main ones anyway.

Hope your all enjoying the holidays.
Have a great New Year (hope its better than this year)

[chopperoldmate]

I will be in SFO for a few days later this month and wish to get current again on the R22 with the view of private hiring the R22 over the coming months.

Can anybody suggest a good company in the Bay area for this purpose.

I have tried google but coming up a bit short on options.

Thanks

[PENNINE BOY]

Cloud 9 helis

[Gordy]

PENNINE BOY
R22
Cloud 9 helis

Nice answer---they are only 2160 nautical miles away....

Chopperoldmate:

Not sure what license you hold or from which country...that will determine what you are allowed to do. If you are not from the area, it may be tough to find someone to rent you an aircraft without a "safety pilot".

The two I know of are:

Golden Gate Helicopters in Hayward (http://www.goldengatehelicopters.com/)

And

Bristow Academy in Concord (http://www.heli.com/helicopter-training-school/6-locations-ConcordCA.php)

[chopperoldmate]

Guys thanks very much for the info.

I hold an FAA PPL (H) but havent flown for a few months so would like to have the instructor/safety pilot on board anyways.

Thanks again.

[Sebastian-PGP]

If anyone needs help? Or are you asking for help finding a school?

[matteolo]

Some info about this school? Is there anyone that has been there recently?

I heard a lot of good things about that school, especially for their professional pilot program!

Thanks

[matteolo]

No one? :bored:

[matteolo]

Thank you very much.

Matt

[johns7022]

I am a corporate pilot with a Prv Helo add on...I am about 10 hrs away from a com/inst. helo add on..but the school here blows..

So I am willing to go off someplace for a few weeks and knock it out...better would be an outfit where I can get 100 hrs of block then have the 200 hrs for my ATP Helo...

If you guys know of a 'git er done' type of helicopter school that would be appreciated....

[malc4d]

er....where are you ??
If near Orlando call Jason at air orlando. Air Orlando Aviation (http://www.flyairorlando.com)

[helirally]

johns7022 check your pm

Paul

[siddhanta_alc]

hey guys/girls. I'm siddhanta. a chopper trainee.
well , my training is supposed to start by 05/06/2010.
i needed some guidance regarding lisencing and stuff.
my training is in US.
I'm goin through a loan procedure.
would it be convinient to get PPL ,come back, give DGCA and then be back for CHPL?
orelse
complete the CHPL and then convert it as accordance to DGCA?

and
how do i go about RT?
please guide me thru..
thanks

[anti-talk]

We have trained many Indian students who have subsequently converted the FAA CPL H to a DGCAA licence.

It would be much simpler to do a CPL / CPL conversion rather than splitting training.

What we do is provide extensive supporting documents to our students that demonstrates satisfaction of DGCAA CPL H requirements and so far to date we have never had an issue with a conversion.

You can do your RT licence here in Florida (JAA) or after your return to India - it really isnt an issue.

I have many friends in India who are in senior flying positions that we have trained and may help you get work when you return with your shiny new licence.

I would also recommend a 44 conversion prior to returning as the 44 is becomming very popular in India for low cost commercial ops, a number of our recent graduates jumped into 44's on their return.

Regards

Geoff

[GoodGrief]

We have trained many Indian students who have subsequently converted the FAA CPL H to a DGCAA licence.

Not a piece of cake.


I have many friends in India who are in senior flying positions that we have trained and may help you get work when you return with your shiny new licence.

You don't get a commercial job with a shiny new one.
Secondly you need 100 hours PIC on type before you can engage in commercial transport.

I would also recommend a 44 conversion prior to returning as the 44 is becomming very popular in India for low cost commercial ops, a number of our recent graduates jumped into 44's on their return.


There are less than 10 R44 in the country............
And I know of at least one expat flying an R44 because there are no locals.

[anti-talk]

Not wanting to get into a pissing match here but!

Every Indian National we have trained has secured a CPL H with the DGCA fairly straight forwardly (sometimes a little more paperwork needed from the training provider).

As I said, if you read my post the DGCA are just like our CAA in the UK ,but in the 50's. You just need loads of documentary evidence to support your training and then it isnt that hard - its just very 'paper' based and 'proper' and you have to jump through hoops.

Now if you are not an Indian Citizen then its actually quite difficult. A lot of resistance from the DGCA

Re Commercial ops in 44's , I hear you again, the 3 guys we trained in the last 6 months that are flying 44's are for Corporate Entities (not AOC guys).

The last point rests my case, there are no locals to fly helicopters there, hence it is an excellent opportunity. The DGCA and local operators would certainly prefer nationals flying there rather than Expats.

Just looked at your profile are you still in Mumbai, I have good friends in Puna?

I trust that clarifies what i meant

[nuddi]

Hi, is there anyone here who has been at OFT in Florida for Helicopter training, or time building? If there is, can you say something about this flight school, and the way things work out there.
Thank you.

[RaymondKHessel]

Hi Nuddi,
Take a look a BoatPix (http://r22.us) if you're looking for time building. Fun flying, and in Florida they're flying almost year-round.

[ka26]

HI,

I am a Com Pilot with 210TT (R44/R22). I am looking for some hourbuilding in Europe. I need 40 hours in order to reach the 250TT to start the FI course.

Any place where the flight hour is cheaper? Able to move all over Europe.
I would prefer a R22, even a private heli.

Thank you.

I am in Italy.

[SFDOC]

I would suggest you check out SRT Helicopters in Bakersfield Ca.

www.srthelo.com (http://www.srthelo.com)

Very challenging terrain, high time instructors who are working in the industry, not time builders.

Did their Mountain Course and was very pleased.

[nahighfill]

Troy,

The best flight school in San Diego County is Civic Helicopters in Carlsbad, based at Palomar Airport.

[Helitaz]

Hi all, I'm looking into traveling over to America quite soon from Australia to do my PPL(H) as it seems to be a lot cheaper over there at the moment with the current currency exchange.

I'm interested in Silverhawk Aviation Academy in Idaho as they've been the most helpful.

was just wondering if anyone here recommends Silverhawk or ever dealt with them?

Any information/advice or recommendations would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers :ok:

[TrT]

Hi all,

I am currently rated South African CAA com heli pilot with +-2800 hours.
I am looking to convert to FAA com in the San Diego area and also look for a job, I am wondering what schools are around there that I can use to convert to FAA and also what my job prospect would be like once converted, any help would be appreciated.
I have been in contact with a few schools but any other info would help.

I may of done a similliar post long ago but cant find it and also things may of changed.

Thanks

[Gordy]

TrT

Unless you are legal to work in the US, you WILL NOT get a job here. Even if you are legal, there are plenty of people ahead of you in line with those hours.

[twpettitt]

Hi all, Need advice really! Im currently doing my PPL in Liverpool Uk and will be finished in Jan but a current employment situation means im being made redundant to i have to money there to continue my training! Questions i have are 1. How hard is it to change my PPL so that i can fly in America because i may aswell sell up now and move over there to continue training. 2. What training am i better of getting ie Commercial, Instructor and Instrument to best gain employment at the end of it 3. Where should i train in America, had a look at a few schools and may aswell go somewhere hot like Maunalou school in Hawaii and 4. When applying for jobs does it matter wether u were trained in UK or USA to employers? Any info, tips or advice would be appreciated cause im new to your industry and finding my feet!
Thankyou
Terence:ok:

[TrT]

So confirm, I should not validate my CAA Helicopter COMM to a FAA Comm with IF, it will be a waste of time and there are no job prospects in the near future(in the US)?

It seems that due to the lack of response from heli schools in the western US they also think it is a bad idea. I have mailed I dont know how many people regarding training and prices to no avail. Obviously they not interested in the business. I have also mailed many other companies in respect of jobs or the prospects of a job and again to no avail. Understandably the market is not great, but the lack of response is interesting.

[Gordy]

TrT---unless you are a US citizen or have a legal right to work in the US, you are not eligible for employment.

Also, as you already hold commercial license, how much training would you be getting?

[TrT]

Well it would be a full IF, ground school for exams and some general orientation. Possibly then ATP also. Apply for a work permit and hope i guess. But my thinking is I would need someone to be interested in hiring me to get a work permit? I think all that costing with accom will be around $10000.. Not exactly peanuts but not a full comm either.

[grumpytroll]

I know of a company that has openings right now for EMS pilots. Air Methods Corp. Mins are high (1500-2000) but they are always looking. Decent pay, nice, well maintained equipment, 401 match, medical bens. Also, don't just look at Western U.S. for training. As long as your here, look everywhere. The cost of living can be substantially lower in the midwest. Here is one example. There is also a good company in the St Louis area.

lakesuperiorhelicopters.com

Cheers

[Gordy]

TrT

I would need someone to be interested in hiring me to get a work permit?

Sorry to burst the bubble---NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.....unless you have some exceptional skill that cannot be found here in the US already. And btw...I have about 10 resumes on my desk right now from US pilots with ATP, long line, fire and EMS experience and all have over 10,000 hours. There are also thousands of CFI's out here with instrument already, who are looking for work.

Not sure what to tell you....

[grumpytroll]

Two EMS pilots flying at or near my base, one from Switzerland and the other from Australia are employed here in good old Wisconsin. Somehow, some way they managed it. Both in their 30's. Making in the mid 60's. Go figure.

Cheers

[Gordy]

Grumpytroll...

Green cards maybe?..I am guessing that the EMS company did NOT sponsor them.

The point I am making is that I find it hard to believe, and have have heard it happen since the early 90's, that a helicopter company in this country will sponsor a foreign national to get a work permit....I am open to be proved wrong.

And that school you linked is still spouting the same "Vietnam pilots retiring, huge pilot shortage" line I see. They also need to learn to spell "aerial"....not too professional when you cannot spell that word......

It is well known that the helicopter's unparalleled areal capabilities are being utilized by many industries.

Too funny

[imuney]

Ok guys, the simple truth to this is that unless you are a US citizen or permanent resident you will not be allowed to work in the US of A. Yes there is a employer sponsored program (H1B visa etc…) but it does not apply to helicopter pilots it is intended to bring IT, medical, and education professionals (to name a few) to the States.
The process to obtain such a work visa/permit is rather lengthy, painful and not to forget expensive. I doubt a company would go through this if they have stacks of resumes from highly qualified US pilots on their desk.

Yes, there are “foreigners” flying for US companies, but trust me they are either permanent residents also called green card holders or US citizens. I’ve never met anyone on a employer sponsored work visa in my ten years in the industry.

[grumpytroll]

You have proven that it is possible to come here from another country and get a job flying a helicopter. Thats all I was saying. I have met many pilots from other countries who are now flying in the U.S. professionally. Here are a couple more examples: I went to army flight school with a guy who was born in Russia. He came here when in his teens and has a distinct russian accent. He is now retired. (CW4) I did my initial training at Northwest with a guy who escaped from Romania in the early 80's. He is currently a Captain on the A320 for Delta. He did all of his flight training in Florida, taught and then worked for a commuter for several years. By the way, a mispelled word on a website is no reason to completely discount the people who own the business. I own a business and we have a website that was created and is managed by a webmaster. If they misspell a word or use a bit of bad grammar, we fix it as soon as some nice person points it out. It doesn't reflect badly on me or anyone that works for me. Its just an honest mistake. Have have a good day!

Cheers

[imuney]

Ok then, why don't you go ahead and call AirMethods or another company's HR department and ask if they'll hire you?????
Only flight school owners and immigration lawyers tell prospective customers that you can get sponsoered by an employer. A couple of months and thousands of Dollars later the student finds out that it ain't so!

Canadian operators are known to sponsor foreigners and get them the proper work permit, not the US.

[Rotorwashed]

in any case, your best bet is to visit the US and find a wife. hello green card.

[newfieboy]

Quote Imuny...
Canadian operators are known to sponsor foreigners and get them the proper work permit, not the US....Not anymore mate....the local boys got pissed off and took it to Mr Harper.......lots of threads on it go read...:D

Gordy. I am with you. We got lucky Matey and came to N .America when times were good.....not so easy now.....12,000+ me, 15,000+ you,least it wasn;t the N. Sea....:ok: Have a good season matey....regards.:ok:

[Gordy]

Newfie...

Gordy. I am with you. We got lucky Matey and came to N .America when times were good.....not so easy now.....12,000+ me, 15,000+ you,least it wasn;t the N. Sea.... Have a good season matey....regards.

Yes we did......And you too...I see you finally made it home for Christmas....on Christmas day.....ahhh the life of a utility pilot....Be safe out there. I leave on contract for 9 months tomorrow......

[AirWon]

I have to concur with Gordy and Imuney......having said that, American wives are not that hard to come by:E:ok:

[TrT]

Thanks anyway Gordy for the heads up...

[Guido Krane]

What about american husbands?
It happens too lately, with foreign girl pilots.
It doesn't sound that bad when you hear that she married a guy and got her green card!
It sounds a lot worse when he, the male pilot, is doing it!
Nevertheless I can count amongst my foreign friends in the US at least ten if not more who did exactly that move.
8 out of ten are now divorced but greencard holders if not already naturalized citizen and working in the industry.
Some of them cover already key position in their organization such as Chief Pilots or Director of Flight Ops, Company airman etc.
SO I wouldn't give up the idea.
The other way is to buy into some company and get a E2 investor visa which will let you work for that company for 6 years renewable.
I know a German guy who renewed already 4 times and is now ready to retire.
Talk to some schools they are usually always looking for investors and specially some with a clue of what to do with choppers, and can assist in the day to day operation to run the COMPANY.

[s3bawild]

Would it be smart to go to the USA for my lessons and exams?
i'm living in the Netherlands at the moment, the price to get PPL and CPL will be like 90K to 110K euro!
that is:118.000 to 145.200 dollars!
and how long will it take till i can get back to the Netherlands?

I am 17 years old and next year i'm done with school!

[IceHeli]

Hi guy's,

Just wanted to share with you my experience from the states. I recently came back from doing hour building towards my commercial licence. After doing lots of research online I decided to go to a school in McMinnville Oregon called Jerry Trimble Helicopters.

I found everything to be spot on with them, good helicopters, good people and great rates.

I would strongly recommend this outfit to anyone interrested!

IceHeli

[RVV85]

Hi Guys,

I have been going through all the posts and basically what you are saying is that there is no way for a foreigner of any kind (except Canadian) to get a job as a Helicopter Pilot in the US?
:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Gordy]

I have been going through all the posts and basically what you are saying is that there is no way for a foreigner of any kind (except Canadian) to get a job as a Helicopter Pilot in the US?

Yep---unless you marry....

Kinda works the other way though too...right?

[RVV85]

So now I have to find a wife too??? Sounds like a lot of work! Will rather sweep some hanger floors. :E

[fijdor]

Good choice.

JD

[206Fan]

Going across the Atlantic in June for Two Months. Is there any S300CBi Flight Schools in the Baltimore area?

Thanks.

[beebo]

Coming from Australia where night flying isn't factored into your license, and (at least for myself) there wasn't much opportunity in the following years, building this time to qualify for a Part 135 operation in the US will be my biggest hurdle.
How have you gone about building your night hours? In the company where you work, or ferries or flying privately?
Thanks for your help.

[liftman]

Hi guys,

In 6 months going to US to add a CPL-IR to my fixed wing license.

Selected Precision helicopter ( Oregon) and Bristow academy ( louisiana)

Aiming to fly SIC off-shore, since I already have about 1500 IR in planks.

Opinion about 2 schools?

Any suggestion?

[GoodGrief]

Night time is built mostly as a CFI instructing and doing instrument instruction at night.
Same problem in Europe, no single engine commercial ops at night.

[beebo]

Thanks GoodGrief.

[MartinCh]

Precision at Newberg Chehalem, if you must fly S300, is probably better value/money compared to most Schweizer operators. Another advantage is plenty of instrument approaches/airports nearby. Tim's nice guy, you'd probably fly with Tim most of time.

OTOH, Bristow Academy's premium prices are offset by the 'brand' on your CV. More limitations, higher pace (at least compared to Titusvile, not sure about Louisiana, though), etc.

Precision isn't that busy. It's located at privately owned public airport. It's quite short strip for airplane guys (only been there in heli couple times) but won't matter for S300. Though you'd come and take 'our' pattern in KMMV a lot for autos. :) Oh, they're also doing some contract training in S61R and recently some buzzing in EC135 at KMMV. I wish my noise signature in R22 as as nice as the 135.

[srkelso2]

Hello,

This is my first post here. For some reason I still don`t know how to start my own thread...:ugh:Therefore I am posting this here.

I am aware of the difficulties of becoming a pilot. I am not one of those who thinks he`ll be flying 777s in 5 years time. I am still deciding as to how I want to achieve my goal of becoming an airline pilot (in Canada) and I`m wondering if this scenario is a realistic one.

Get my pilots licenses (ppl and cpl) while attending Uni part-time. Then keep on building my hours any way I can (probably flight intructing) and continue going to university part-time. My main concern is that I won`t have the time to flight instruct full-time and go to school part-time.

The main advantage I see in this is I`ll be able to spend more years flying and building hours while at the same time getting a degree to become a more competitive candidate as opposed to going to University full time for 3 years ( in quebec) and barely be able to fly as I study.

I`m posting this to hopefully get some insight and make a decision. Do you guys think my plan is realistic ?

Sorry for making this so long and posting it here in this unrealated thread.

[KnightInExile]

Hello.

Does anyone know where can I get training as a helicopter pilot in South Florida?

[justmaybe]

Anybody got any recommendations/avoids for PPL(H) schools in the US?

[HeliStudent]

Cheap n' cheerful: Helicopter pilot license in the USA - Ocean Helicopters (http://www.oceanhelicopters.com/student-information/)

Top of the line: Helicopter Flight Training - Bristow Academy Inc (http://www.heli.com/)

[Gordy]

HeliStudent:

You have a lot to learn about this industry my friend before you make blanket statements like yours.

[HeliStudent]

I very willing to learn and all ears!

[SFDOC]

Have you looked @ SRT Helicopters in Ca.

They offer training in S300C's, and also can train you in an R44 if you choose. They are an M1 Visa approved school, and to date have a 100% first time pass rate.

They also offer fixed wing training, and conduct most of their Instrument training at night, so you are also building valuable night and night cross country.

If you do their professional pilot program, they suggest the following course of training.

PPl Helicopter
PPL Fixed Wing Add On
IFR Airplane (you will usually get 10 to 20 hours of actual IFR)
IFR Helicopter Add On
Mountain Course
Com Helicopter
CFI
CFII

The avg cost for all of that is usually 55 to 60K US

They have a FLY IT Simulator which also helps keep some of the costs down.

They do alot of advanced mission training such as SAR as well.

Lots of pictures and info on their facebook page.

[DauphinDude]

They are an M1 Visa approved school, and to date have a 100% first time pass rate.


Hmmm...

The avg cost for all of that is usually 55 to 60K US

Double hmmmmm!

Seem to good to be true... Are you a recruiter?

[Peter PanPan]

I would stay clear of SRT in Bakersfield, CA.

Do not let their website deceive you, it does look pretty fancy with all the pictures and catchy lines but you will be dragging yourself to complete your training in a timely pace.
Stopped their briefly a few years ago for some training and was majorly disappointed: they only had one S300 serviceable then but not in good shape, in fact I didn't see it fly at at all and one 1973 C172 totally overpriced. In all fairness the facilities are not bad at all, they had decent classrooms for ground instruction right on the airfield (KBFL). You will most likely get a young CFI with little experience up to your Commercial, nothing unusual in that except for the fact that they advertise for highly skilled, specialized and experienced instructors with SAR / Law Enforcement / Military / HEMS experience. Those guys are indeed related to the company but you won't have them during basic training.
They always seem to be tight on cash so you will be pressured to make deposits and "pay as you fly" will be frowned upon.
Last but not least, Bakersfield is the ultimate armpit, it sits at the bottom of the San Joaquin valley and frequently suffers from the Los Angeles ' smog settling in the valley, reducing horizontal visibility quite drastically at times, once again slowing down your training.

How they could possibly achieve certification for M1 visa sponsoring is a mystery to me.

I agree with DauphinDude: SFDOC is biased.

There are numerous fantastic flight schools across the States and it's easy to find out which ones are authorized to conduct training for non US cititizens / residents.:mad:

[gulliBell]

Coming from Australia where night flying isn't factored into your license... building this time to qualify for a Part 135 operation in the US will be my biggest hurdle.


I had the same issue. Whilst I had long held an Australian ATPL, I couldn't qualify for an FAA ATP Rotorcraft check-ride until I had 100 hours night experience. Fortunately for me this was pretty easy to get as we had a high intensity night offshore requirement. Having this night experience was most helpful because my FAA ATP check-ride was done at night....

[SFDOC]

I am curious, what training did you do that you were disapointed in and when were you there?

Currently (2) 300c's, a 172, Jet Ranger, and they have a leaseback agreement for an R44.

They are approved for the M1, they have had it for over 5 years.

As to the valley, I spend alot of my time on the Kern River and the nearby mountains, not to mention the cost of living is cheap and I can be in Los Angeles in a little over an hour.

As to Dauphin, yes, I am biased, but I can also back up what I post.

[SFDOC]

If you look at how the recommended training is structured, and the fact that they also use an FAA approved simulator, keeping the cost in the
55 - 60 k range is actually quite easy.

[MICK6R4]

I was hoping to go to the states to hour build on a r44 on jaa can anyone advise a good school :ok:

[hookes_joint]

Bristow Academy in Titusville Florida have the aircraft and approved EASA R44 Fi(s) so getting an hour building module set up won't be an issue.
Have fun in the sun!! :)

[herman the crab]

Try Rotor Aviation in Long Beach, California. Try and do the Robinson safety course at the same time.

HTC

[jymil]

I need to get my hours up and therefore I want to do some time building in the states in Nov/Dec in an R22 for 2 weeks or so. Given the time of year, it is probably best to go to CA or FL to avoid crappy weather interfering with flying.






Any recommendations for a good place to do that ? I was already looking around in the web, but it's always good to get a second opinion. And helicopter academy aka boatpix is already out of the question due to a previous bad experience with them.

[jymil]

Thanks to the mod for moving my message into oblivion and killing the discussion ..


This is an old thread which is only remotely relevant to my question. I am neither interested in initial training nor in job prospects in the US !

[Jarvy]

Jymil you could try Cloud 9 and Ocean Helicopters at North Palm Beach FL.
Haven't flown with them but did visit them both last year.

[gbvxtc]

I am a US pilot with 1200 hours, nearly all Robinson time, looking for Turbine transition work. Have checked in with Papillon, Sundance, PHI, RLC, and Temsco.

Anybody know of other US options for Turbine Jobs with 0 Turbine experience?

Thanks!

[Darren999]

Sundance sounds a good chance
Try some GOM companies RLC comes to mind...

[Rusty1983]

Hey all,

if you would start zero to cpl training as international student, which school of the big 3 (Mauna Loa, Hillsborro, Bristow) would you choose and why?

My favourite would be since now Mauna Loa, because of the 12/14 climatic zones combined with sunny weather over the year for gaining fast experience in short time, but I heard the living costs are pretty expensive there and 1000USD is too less for monthly living cost calculation.

Please tell me, what was your experience at MLH, or the other 2?

BR, Rusty

[13snoopy]

Excellent advertising rates available by clicking on the Advertise (http://www.pprune.org/advertise.php) button on the top of the page

Splot

[grumpytroll]

There are several training schools in Arizona that are good. The cost of living in Arizona is very competitive, especially compared to Hawaii. The weather is hard to beat, even compared to Hawaii as far a clear skies the vast majority of the year. I recommend Prescott, AZ as the temps stay very livable all year round as opposed to Phoenix.

[muermel]

If anybody needs first hand info on Atlantic Helicopters in Fort Pierce, Florida, let me know. They are EASA & FAA approved. I've just finished some training and hour building with them and can highly recommend them :ok:

Ciao

[Agile]

yes please, Muermel,


I was looking for that:
what program did you follow, EASA?
what was your experience before?
could you finish you goal promptly?
flying condition in fort pierce?
the instructors quality at Atlantic helicopter?
aircraft ok? what type? others...


Thanks

[muermel]

Hi Agile

I converted my FAA-CPLH to EASA-CPLH, quite a bit of work to do. Not really a conversion (no credit given in regards to the 14 exams at least). Finished my 14 exams in 3 sittings from May to Juli this year, the theory took 9 months, while I worked a full time job, so don't forget the 14 exams. It's not rocket science but it's A LOT of stuff to study and remember.

I hold a FAA-CPLH, CFI, CFII & IR with experience on the Schweizer 300, R22 & R44 but I didn't fly that much for some time so it took me a couple of hours to get comfortable again.

I finished everything I wanted to get done (build 65 hours EASA-PIC, fly 20 hours dual for EASA-CPLH, EASA-CPLH checkride in R44 and also R22 type rating) within 6 weeks. It was quite busy the last 2 weeks but if you have a plan and a timeframe and don't spend every 2nd day at the beach or pool you can get things done. I flew nearly every day, sometimes during the day and that same evening to get some night hours as well.
You have to have the plan before you go there and you have to take action, don't expect people to motivate you when you arrive.

Martin Sims, the owner, will do everything he can to get you up to speed and to accomodate you as best as possible but the student wants the licence and has to have the plan and timeframe set and his focus on the goal to get things done. If you want to party, go to the beach or chase the girls, that's fine but than of course things will take a lot longer to get done.

Flying conditions are generally best in fall/spring cause the weather calms down a bit. People tend to think that Florida means Sunshine 24/7, which isn't true. You have sunshine pretty much every day for at least 50 % of the day but in the summer it get's very humid and hot so be prepared for violent Thunderstorms and Rain like you wouldn't believe it. They pop up locally very quick and also disappear quickly too but in the summer you will usually have at least 1 TS or Shower in the afternoon between roughly 12 and 4, the mornings are usually best for flying. Fall and Winter is much nicer cause it's far less humid and hot so the weather is much more calm and stable. :ok:
Don't get me wrong, weather is generally good but TS in the afternoon or evening are always possible and WILL happen frequently.

The airfield KFPR is quite busy cause there's lots of GA traffic and business jets going into the Bahamas and the Carribean so you will be getting used to busy radios and traffic patterns :D Also they have a big FW flight school based there so that also keeps things interesting. But the ATC guys are generally very helpful and try to make things as easy as possible for the couple of helo-guys there :D

The instructors quality is outstanding as the owner, Martin Sims, has been a EASA-Examiner and Instructor for over 25 years and knows every trick in the book when it comes to instructing, getting you current and comfortable in the cockpit again, spotting things with your flying that you would have never seen as issues or reasons for mistakes you keep making. He also knows the 22 and the 44 inside out, so that helps too. You will be impressed also by his knowledge of the EASA-Regs and how to work them to your advantage as best as possible.

They have 2 R22s, a R44 and also have access to a 206 if I remember correctly. The good thing is a very experienced mechanic is on site so I never had to cancel a flight cause of technical problems. There was some scheduled maintenance carried out but that's normal.

One thing to remember: Atlantic Helicopters isn't the cheapest school out there but they provided me with quality training I might have gotten somewhere in Europe but for a lot less moneywise cause flying in the USA is a lot cheaper. Also don't be fooled by cheap hour building in the USA, cause a CFI will usually be with you in the aircraft and he will log the hours as instruction and will sign your logbook accordingly so YOU WILL NOT BE ABLE TO LOG THEM AS EASA-PIC time. FAA PIC time is counted differently than EASA, keep that in mind. Or the school wants you to fly at least 10 hours or so dual before they let you go solo and by then their cheap hourly rate isn't so cheap anymore.

I did exactly 3,5 hours with Martin Sims before he send me off solo. I could log the dual time towards my 20 hours for the conversion anyway (not a loss!) and after that started building the hours towards my EASA-PIC time while flying solo.

Cheers

[Agile]

Thanks muermel, outstanding report.


I am along the same profile as yours (FAA PLL with a pass of half of the 14 exam). good to have 1st hand information.


I think Atlantic helicopter deserve more credit to be one of the few option for EASA helicopter in the US. they just seem to miss a good word around and maybe a more informative web site... ah... also some Cabri G2 s to learn the right way of working the pedal in Europe. (one can always dream!)


Yes I learned my lesson for summer flying in Florida, start flying as early as 7AM and stop at 3PM when the storms move in. Those storm make that R22 quite unsuitable for flying in a matter of minutes.


regards

[muermel]

Hi Agile

I hold a FAA-CPLH & CFI so the experience there might have been slightly diferent than yours might be but I dont't think that changes the general fact that it's avery good company to train with.

Get all the exams done before you go there (which I think is a requirement before commencing the modular training anyway) although you might finish the last ones in Orlando and than go down to Fort Pierce ( 2 Hours by car).

The owner is actually in the process of getting a site on Facebook and getting the word out there that there's another EASA-approved school in the US. Also getting a Cabri G2 is something he considers at the moment. But time will tell.

I've flown a Schweizer 300 and a R44 through showers and or around TS and in terms of shaking around a being tossed about they're all the same and scare you all the same.

Ciao

[Mhyn3s]

Afternoon all, I've just been trawling the forums for a couple hours however most of the information is now a little dated.

I'm not far off completing my EASA PPL(H), and looking forward I would like to do a couple of weeks away and get in some hours building. Can anyone recommend any schools that are value for money in regards to hours building or r44 conversion courses, either in US/NZ/SA or even here in the UK.

Cheers in advance

[MartinCh]

Unable to send PM to Mhyn3s.
I try not to do too blatant advertising as per the mods. Place I trained/timebuilt in the past.

[Mhyn3s]

Apologies Martin, just checked my settings on this and should now be able to receive mail.

[CorsAir2]

Hey all! I casually found out that pprune has a dedicated 'rotor' section only few days ago! I've thought it was exclusively addressed to fixed wing airmen... Well, just joined and read a lot of interesting threads inside.

First of all let me to introduce myself: 27 y.o. Swiss native, aeronautical industry employed (jet and prop. airplane factory mechanical/structural technician and helicopter line maintenance). I attended an excellent helicopter ATO, but in the worst period decidedly: at the end of last year some personnel including flight instructors, technicians and engineers lost their job due to company financial problems.

I achieved my CPL and IR on multiengine last january and at the beginning of my training I was firstly oriented to continue towards 250hours total time threshold to gain access to FI course. Now the situation is quite different and my attention is focused to Northern America. I'm searching info concerning American flight schools on Robinson22/44. Now the dilemma is: USA or Canada? Second instance: full EASA CPL conversion to FAA (or Canadian) and subsequent IR and CFI courses are possible or a new 'on stage' CPL training is necessary in hopes of finding a job as flight instructor over there?

Unfortunately I've no direct feedback from other FAA or Transport Canada student pilots transited into my habitual facilities. Looking into FAA and Transport Canada websites I noted some pilot license restrictions given as a result of conversion process. Please, can someone suggests something about proper direct experience concerning these particular issues? On the other hand if anyone needs info about EASA licensing I'd be happy to give an help!

Cheers in advance!

Lucas

[muermel]

@CorsAir2

Check out FAR § 61.129 C

eCFR ? Code of Federal Regulations (http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SID=86cea1d080783d921c3d993152230235&mc=true&node=se14.2.61_1129&rgn=div8)

That's the aeronautical experience required for the FAA-CPLH. Plus the written test, which can be done with 4 weeks preparation, no problem. Obviously you need a checkride with a DPE (takes all day) about REGs, airspace, PoF, Human Performance, the whole shebang pretty much.

If you have a Greencard or can get your hands on some sort of Visa that permits a prolonged stay and legal work in the US, I'd say go for the US. Huge market, some entry level jobs available, much more dynamic than the EU. Especially as a CFI. I'm not saying there's no competition for those jobs in the US, but at least there are jobs.

I'm fairly certain that you can not get a F1 visa for you pilot training cause it is not initial training. You are doing a conversion so you proably won't get a student visa. Without that you're not legally allowed to work in the US after your training, so I guess a big part of your decision depends on getting some sort of VISA. Or get married with a US girl :-)

Can't tell you much about Canada, apart from the fact that the country seems to be awesome. But from what I read the situation for pilots there isn't the best right now.

Ciao

[CorsAir2]

Hey Muermel, thanks for your reply! Yes, most of the previous flight experience required and descibed on FAR § 61.129 C are normally achieved during EASA flight training. I'm afraid the greatest obstacle for me would be VISA issue, if the option will be the conversion process only.

I've no words to describe my mood in this period... I feel so sad.
I actually have a lot of aeroplanes and helicopter work orders for final assembly lines and factory maintenance, but at flight school no new student pilot arrived since September 2014. Most of latest degree pilots I know haven't found a flight related job position yet. The luckiest guys who have found a seat are all EASA IR on ME and FI qualified, employed as co-pilots with almost 500hs total time entry level experience. I sometimes think that probably the end of European helicopter pilot job market is near... Isn't true? However a lot of companies buy new aircraft... Something is not clear to me so much.

At the end of the loop I think I'll have to spend other moneys again in order to obtain the actual f**k entry level requirements, not in Europe anyway: updated price lists, in my opinion, are nowadays simply embarrassing.
I'm sorry for my bitter words, but this situation seems to me a sort of nightmare.
“... and no PNR planned along this route...” :ugh:

Muermel, can I send you PM?

Ciao

[muermel]

@Corsair2

Sure can you send me PM. No problem.


Bye

[CorsAir2]

Sorry Muermel, don't able to send pm now.

Addressed to PPRuNe: I kindly ask pm clearance approval, please!