Scottish TMA Speed Control

[The Fat Controller]

Once again I feel I have to say something on this.
Yesterday (Friday) afternoon I was continually asked by aircraft on their first call at MARGO if there was going to be any speed control. PLEASE plan on the speed limit points and descent planning in the STAR charts and count it as a bonus if we lift the restrictions !
Also, the TALLA controller on 126.3 does not know what traffic is arriving at Glasgow from the west or north, or north for Edinburgh, hence the sometimes late request for you to slow down.
In another post regarding restrictions, you may have seen that the TALLA sector is often at capacity the days, so we are working pretty hard this summer.
And finally, thanks from me and my colleagues to the 14 aircraft that had to hold at around 3pm yesterday dodging that big CB at TWEED, it was a bit chaotic for a while but that's life in ATC these days...

[Pheasant Plucker]

Aaaagh FATCO, were you the 's' controller for Cozy?! :D

[Wheelybin]

Also remember if you are flying into class E airspace then 250 knots or less is mandatory under the "See and be seen" principle,even if Atc say no speed restriction.
PS Mother in law was on board one of the aircraft that was held...so many thanks for an extra half hour of peace!

[ 29 July 2001: Message edited by: Wheelybin ]

[Oswald]

We've been through this topic before.

The height restrictions at Margo ( and the speed restrictions elsewhere ) are not always in place, and ATC inform us of this too late. London are better organised, they use words to the effect of "...you are cleared to FL260 to EXPECT FL190 20 before Midhurst..." .

Also, they give advanced warning of any speed control ( or lack of ).

[Pheasant Plucker]

For a bit more clarification:

Always expect to be at FL260 by MARGO. The exceptions being during the occasional quiet period during the day or after 8p.m. when it is quieter anyway.

You will always have to achieve the min. stack level by LANAK, to avoid hitting EGPH jet outbounds. The only exception will be after 10p.m. when the TMA is bandboxed.

As EGPH is getting alot busier these days expect to be at min. stack level at or abeam TARTN/TWEED, this helps both us, and the airfield. Again there will be quieter periods during the day when this can be cancelled. Don't constantly ask though, you will be told if we are able to lift the restriction.

The FL160 restriction before TLA (can't remember if it is 10, 15 or 20 miles before TLA, as I don't think I have ever used it) is never, I REPEAT NEVER applied.

As for speed restrictions, if you are coming up through MARGO without the likelihood of you catching or being caught by other traffic, then I will always say 'no speed restriction' when giving initial descent clearence (of course the airfields may need to apply speed restrictions because of their own traffic, but I try and give traffic to them early enough so that they can do this).
If the r/t is busy and you are in amongst other traffic (TCAS will give you a very rough idea of what is going to affect you - BUT IT WON'T TELL YOU THE FULL STORY), then don't ask about speed restrictions, you will again be told.
Sometimes it is not possible to give you an instantaneous answer as we may be thinking about positioning you in front of or behind traffic coming in from the NEW or TRN directions. As this traffic doesn't come on to TALLA sectors frequency until quite late occasionally, we may have to just let things run. In which case you can usually expect to slow down.
If you are asked to keep your speed up or are told no speed restriction, treat that as a bonus.

Traffic routing NEW - TLA can for 90% of the time expect to be at FL180, 20 miles before TLA, speed 250 knots 10 before. As the Tay sector needs to co-ordinate with the TALLA sector before cancelling this restriction then it will only be during very quiet periods that this will be cancelled.

Hope that answers 1 or 2 questions, if anyone has anything else to add, feel free.

The Scottish TMA is still able to be fairly flexible in its operation, but that flexibility has reduced a lot, even from last year.
We are beginning to have to hold at LANAK and TWEED because of traffic numbers a lot more than we used to.
The upshot of this is that if you expect the worst (well not quite the worst, you could be flying to London), then more often than not, you will be delighted and surprised to find that you won't have to hold or that your speed and height restriction has been cancelled. :D

[The Fat Controller]

Oswald, I think you have missed the point somewhat.
The descent planning restrictions around the TLA area are published on the STAR charts, and the speed limit points are clearly marked, so that is what you SHOULD expect, and having recently flown back to Glasgow with BA I know that they have them all in the FMS on the 757, and they realise it's a bonus if they are lifted (especially the Heathrow based crews).
I really don't believe that you ever fly into the London TMA NOT expecting to fly 250 knots at the SLP, and if you go to EGLL then leave the hold at 230 or so !!
The point I was trying to make is that there is enough RT going on when it's busy, and the last thing we need is someone asking a sometimes unanswerable question at 100 miles from touchdown.
Regards,

[Deeko01]

yeah, know what you mean. I have the same problem in my BAe ATP. We go too fast and fly too high. Perks of the job, those PW126 engines !

[Oswald]

Guys, thanks for the comments very informative-good to get another view on this subject.

FATCO-I got your point, I was actually making another point about how London deal with speed/height restrictions. Also, I ensure that the FMC is set up according to the restrictions on the arrival charts ( most people do ) so I plan to obey speed/height restrictions even though, in terms of fuel/time economy, they are often less than ideal.

Pheasant Plucker-your post cleared up a few of my questions/misconceptions-thanks.


:D

[ 02 August 2001: Message edited by: Oswald ]

[recommended spacing]

Deeko, thought you drove that nice blue wagon at PF!