I thought all the Irish Airport boards were now independent?

[eoinok]

What is the story with this so? :)

Seems strange that Shannon still had to get approval from Dublin for the Ryanair base.

When is Cork going to see some FR a/c? :confused:
Judging by the size of the SNN deal, not goign to be anytime soon :{

Worker Director quits Dublin Airport Authority

December 03, 2004 09:33
One of the worker-directors of the newly formed Dublin Airport Authority is to resign over what he says was a lack of consultation on the deal struck with Ryanair at Shannon Airport.

Dermot O'Loughlin is the SIPTU representative on the Board, which was established following the break-up of Aer Rianta. He is expected to formally resign today.

While Shannon Airport has its own board, the final breakup of Aer Rianta is not yet complete so the new incentive scheme it has just introduced had to receive the agreement of the Dublin board.


This scheme, which is open to all new airlines, gives generous discounts on landing fees as well as marketing supports if new airlines base planes at Shannon.

Earlier this week Ryanair became the first airline to take advantage of the scheme which will see it paying just 50 cent per passenger in airport charges and receiving up to €2 per passenger in marketing support in its first year of operating new routes.

In emailed correspondence, Dermot O'Loughlin, the SIPTU worker representative on the board of the Dublin Airport Authority, expressed his misgivings about the scheme to its acting Chief Executive Oliver Cussen.

However, the scheme went ahead regardless, without any further consultation.

In his resignation letter to be delivered to Chairman Garry McGann this morning, Mr O'Loughlin said the episode makes 'a mockery of the representative structures of the DAA.'

A spokesman for the DAA was unwilling to comment until the Board had formally received Mr O'Loughlin's letter.

Seperately, Mr O'Loughlin has written to the 13 companies which expressed an interest in building a second terminal at Dublin Airport to propose an investment scheme.

The Civil Aviation Terminal Investment Scheme would invite union workers at the airport to invest up to €1,000 a year for four years as part of a fund of €12m which would purchase a stake in any future second terminal project. The Government has made no decision yet on the project.

[Tom the Tenor]

Ryanair and Mr O'Leary are not interested in Cork. The addition of Liverpool next spring and the restoration of the extra Stansted flight is a knee jerk reaction to the arrival of Easyjet on the LGW-ORK next month. Saying that all new or restored flights are still welcome, of course! Also, even if Ryanair really, really wanted to put aeroplanes into Cork there is little space for them to park overnight.

The legal mechanics tying the Cork, Dublin and Shannon boards together are still in place until next April or May. That is the reason all new deals until then have to be given the okay by the Dublin board. After April or May the new airport boards are free to act independantly.

[eoinok]

I agree with you there TOM on the parking problems, there really is little space there over night. If the bloody ATR's could be parked down by the flying club over night or something it would free up another few slots!

Saying that, it is a problem that I would like to see cause a few headaches for someone.

Extra routes out of SNN should be beneficial to us anyway. SNN is not that much of a drive from ORK. Certainly a lot closer than DUB.......

[runawayedge]

eoinok
I rarely get annoyed with comments I see on pprune but I must say your comment on Aer Arann's presence got right up my nose,

'If the bloody ATR's could be parked down by the flying club over night or something it would free up another few slots!'

Suddenly, because MOL sets up a base at SNN, the only airline in expansion following 9/11 that brought a lot of business to CRK becomes a pesky nuisance that should be moved away from the terminal and not get in the way of non existent business! Where would CRK be today without RE. Oh yes times are good now, we need bigger aircraft, even though RE toiled through the hard times to make a few quid, send them down to the flying club and they'll have a nice view of the big boys parked up on the apron! Where do RE go DUB, BHD, EDI, BHX, SOU, BRS. Which ones can we give to MOL hmmmmm, cop on and be thankful for what you've got MOL has laid his hat, ain't gonna be another base in CRK!

[eoinok]

Aologies runwayedge if I got up your nose. Maybe my choice of words was a bit harsh.

Agree with you on RE. Have been expanding a lot at Cork. My point is that they are taking up a slot in front of the terminal where a larger type jet aircraft could be parked. The ATR's, due to their size, could be as I suggest what I would like to think was "tounge in cheek" could be parked down by the club. They would fit. I would also suggest that FR's shoudl park down there too if they would fit but we know that they wouldn't.

My post was not exactly aimed at "we should turf out everything to allow FR to base there". I am as anxious, as I am sure any Corkonian avation enthusiast is to see more a/c based at ORK. Be it Ryanair, EI further expand or RE, anything extra for Cork is good news.

If the problem with an airline was that they wouldn't have enough parking slots at nite for their a/c, then a solution like moving the ATRs to a location where bigger jet aircraft couldn't park (like the club), would have to be seriously looked at....

[ALLMCC]

Here's hoping this weeks the Jet2 announcement of BFS - ORK doesn't push RE off BHD - ORK. After all the work RE and the late Jet Magic have done to build the route, would be sad to see someone else come in and clean up. At least RE have 2 rotations per day whereas the Jet2 will only be 1 per day.

RE are one of a dying breed - still offering a decent service instead of the bargain basement service prevalent these days.

[neidin]

Cork Airport Mgt. have said they would not give Ryanair the suicidal deal they got at SNN. Ryanair pay 50 cents and are given back 2 EUROs in "marketing support". Madness. The lowest deal in the world by any airport to any airline - suicide. So now airports pay airlines - daft - except it keeps the Shannon workers happy politically.

If Cork did such a deal they would have all their other customers BMIBABY, AER LINGUS, RE etc... all kicking up so they could also get EURO 1.50 handed to them for every passenger. Ryanair bullied a foolish Chairman Pat Shanahan at Shannon into a shotgun deal. He was given four hours to sign the deal or lose it. Four hours to decide would he pay Ryanair for every passenger. Easyjet are considering launching legal action against SNN as they were not offered a similar deal when they announced LGW a few months ago.

Irish aviation is actually a big loser in this. The Ryanair deal at SNN puts no value of the use of Irish regional airports and will blight the operations of SNN, ORK and KIR for years to come.

RE faces a lot of heat now at ORK. They have BMI BABY against them at BHX and JET2 with EURO 1 fares to Belfast. That is tough. They also face losing the valuable PSO route to Kerry next year where they haev been fleecing passengers and using the money to subsidise loss making UK startup routes from ORK, GWY and LDY. RE has it tough.

Neidin

[flyerz111]

There is no doubt Arran have been good for Cork and, having withstood the weak attack from Jet Magic, have had a few good years. I cannot help feeling the heydays may be coming to an end.

Having set up a crew base in Cork, they failed to capitalise on the opportunity and instead decimated their Bristol and Southampton runs to provide aircraft for other routes, put a Birmingham schedule in place which failed to exploit Flybe's withdrawal and in general have failed to consolidate their presence properly, preferring instead to focus on regional airport links. Now they face Jet 2 on Belfast (not a problem as long as they stay on one a day) and Baby on Birmingham (ditto but more serious), with a new carrier on Bristol also imminent. There would be little surprise if Flybe took a pop at Southampton also.

One only has to look at what is happening in Belfast, with the flood of announcements in the last week by Easy, Jet2 and Flybe, to see that the UK LoCo's are looking for places to put their surplus capacity. Cork stands out a mile as a target so Arran's operation there may face stiff competition soon. How long before another operator has a pop at the Cork - Dublin cash cow(a morning, lunch and evening 737-800 would clean up).

Arran's development from Galway and Waterford is perfectly suited to their capabilities, although fortress Galway is crumbling a bit with Loganair in place. To survive in Cork intact, they will need to quickly face up to the nature of their competion in Cork and decide either to compete (for which the ATR may be a problem) or seek greener pastures in the regional airports.

What's the story with the subsidies - surely Galway and Kerry no longer require subsidising as they seem as busy as the Cork route, which is not paid for by Irish taxpayers, now?

[Tom the Tenor]

Air Southwest (the elder!) and even Jersey European were championing Cork to Belfast a long time before Jetmagic and Aer Arann arrived on the route. At times the Aer Southwest Bandit was on the route up to three times a day to Belfast! Later Jersey European flew a once daily with a Shorts 360 and even the occasional BAe146!

Agreed Cork is better off not to have signed up to the suicide deal with Ryanair. A loss to the airport at Shannon of 1.50 euro per pax for the first year on the new routes! Certainly, madness! Happy workers at Shannon? For how long?

The only blight on future operations at Cork is the stopover. Suicidal deals entered into elsewhere will not stop Cork moving ahead.

Aer Arann's success at Cork must have the low cost airlines sniffing around them bigtime now? Dublin, Belfast, Edinburgh and Birmingham ex Cork must all be vulnerable to low cost attack? Aer Arann wrecked their own operations to Bristol/Southampton by having so few flights on the route. There are suggestions that RE may start flights to France from Cork and there has even been a little rumour about a France base! Talk of an hourly flight to Dublin was also rumoured today! Would RE try jets? Lease rates on new ERJ 170s may be prohibitive and even then being up against 737s may still be hard.

Certainly, thinking caps on for Aer Arann at Cork in the months ahead.

[tgo54]

As for parking at ORK I wonder has anyone though of closing of 25/07 as per EDI. It must cost the airport a fortune annually to keep it open relative to the number of times it "HAS" to be used due crosswind on 17/35 or other reasons.

Competitiion? I think that anyone who put larger capacity and less frequency onto any of the RE routes would soon tire of flying 1/4 full aircraft. As much as 737 etc are nice to talk about lets remember how much they cost to run. Jets are sexy, yes, but boy can they suck in your profit if you don't treat them with the respect they need and feed them regularly with the required quota of paying pax.

[flyerz111]

Larger capacity, a good range of fares and well targetted frequency would win the Dublin - Cork route, as it would on Dublin - Kerry. I assume the routes must account for over 100,000 passengers each (possibly double that for Cork). Both have runways capable of most jets - I'm surprised Eujet didn't try Cork with their Fokkerjets.

The domestic routes didn't work for Aer Lingus on jets or turboprops because their costs were too high. Arran have no doubt a much lower cost base (assisted by the subsidies) but even still their fares are higher than you would expect to pay on a route to the UK. without the luxury of being able to sell half the aircraft at a low fare to cover the costs and make profit on the later-booking half, they have possibly hit the floor on how low they can go.

The UK LoCo's and Ryanair are predatory and looking for ready made routes which have existing strong traffic figures. Assuming slots were not an issue, a Q400 five times per day or 737-800 three times a day between Dublin and Cork would quickly knock Arran off their perch, which would be a shame as they held out hope to Cork a few years ago when all others were abandoning it. Similarly, how would the government react to a well-established carrier such as Flybe bidding for the domestic routes? Unless Arran have strong political clout such as a minister who is willing to condone throwing taxpayers money at routes which, by now, are either basket cases (Knock) or probably self-sustaining (Galway and Kerry), the continuation of the subsidised routes cannot be considered a foregone conclusion.

Come on Arran - get some noisier aircraft before it's too late!

[neidin]

RE get over EURO 4 million per annum to operate form Kerry to Dublin and similar ex galway. This for just 20 return flight a week. Kerry have said in the past that they help them with funding to operate a fourth Mon-Fri rotation. Aer Arann have fleeced the consumer in Kerry as the route is very busy and the were exposed by the local media as overcharging for the regular fares ex Kerry compared to flights ex Cork. They used profits from kerry to start other marginal Uk routes. They will struggle to hold on to Kerry as other carriers are circling. The CEO has made no secret that he wants to sell out and it is likely that Irish Govt. will split the PSO routes due to this. The Govt. is also unhappy with RE abortive attempt at TA flights. They have taken their eye off the ball.

On a stranger note the Ryanair deal at SNN where they receive EURO 1.50 per passenger is for FIVE Years. It is also expected to be leaked this week that they are receiving significant additional "Training Grants" from Shannon Development which is further profit for Ryanair.

The PSO routes will go to tender on second week of january 2005. Startup July 2005.

[eoinok]

Interesting news nedin wrt the landing fees that FR are going to be charged at SNN.

I wonder is there a rough guildline as to how much it costs the airport authority to land a passenger at SNN?? Say it is €1 a passenger in running costs etc and the rest is profit??
I would think maybe that this cost is expoential in that the more passengers, more staff are needed, cost per passenger goes up??

Saw an article in the Sunday times today that SNN are planning to cut their staffing by half and out source. Guess who of course is objecting, the unions....... Sometimes I think it is the unions who are running this country.
I work for a large multinational electronic company. It is privately owned. We have no unions, as is the case in most large multonationals now. If i was suplus to my employers requirements or we were making a loss, I would be cut, no questions asked, it is like this in the real world.
In this country it seems that the unions think, or seem to have, the power to control a company and tell them if they can or can not make redundant their employees, regardless if they are making a loss or not and are going to go under. It is utterly incredible.

[Tom the Tenor]

Well, that is the legacy of a smug public service. The Dossers Academies are still there somewhat at Irish airports and dare as I say it even at my beloved Cork, never mind snn! So, why would the unions and workers want change after having it so good for so long? After the decades of what went before things are not going to change overnight.

What do you all think of the latest stunt with AA arriving on the scene? AA mad keen to have a go at ORD ex DUB and in order to satisfy the stopover farce AA putting in a Y 757 ex BOS to SNN!

The blackmail of the stopover?

[eoinok]

I would assume TTT, that the 757 would only be op during the summer months? Usual stopover then on the outbound or inbound leg at SNN during the winter?

It is always good news/ to hear that someone like AA is sniffing around Irish airports looking at opening up routes. Might be trying to establish a presence, a small one at the moment, until the bilateral agreement with SNN is abolished. When (if??) this happens, they would be in a fairly strong position then to take advantage.

What really needs to happen at SNN/DUB is competiion. AA going to O'Hare is the 1st step as well. EI have too much of a monopoly on the route. I have been across the pond a few times in the last few years. A few of the occasions have been for business, the others have been for pleasure. Doesn't bother me going ex SNN for business, as the company pays for the ticket and a taxi up and down to SNN. When I have gone for pleasure, I always fail to get a cheaper option direct out of SNN. I am not talking 50 euro in difference here, I am talking usually in the region of 200 to 300 euro! When it is on my own time and own money, I can take the extra few hours traveling and stop overs etc to save 300 euro! Anyway, LHR is a nice airport for spotting as well, beats the hell out of the ORK 737 gray train that we get everyday!

I am afraid is always going to be under SNN's shadow when it comes to TA routes. Even if the stopover is abolished, SNN has a bigger catchment area than ORK? City is only a 2hr drive from it, and a lot of other counties up the west are in the same position.

[runawayedge]

Neidin
You seem to be an authority in relation to Irish aviation and the speed at which you receive sensitive information. I must however challenge you on this occassion. As far as i am aware under the terms of the essential air programme RE must charge a percentage of the seats at certain fares and the small remainder they have discretion over price. The price in essence is dictated by the PSO and not the operator. If you look at the most recent set of accounts issued by RE you will see that the majority of their profit is accounted for by their non PSO operations. Yes they have strategic issues with competition going forward but I think you will find with the exception of Derry that the marginal routes you refer to are actually performing very well, particularly CRK and GWY. The deal at SNN is cheap but it makes a lot of sense. SNN now has to learn how to drive revenue from non avaition related activities like the rest of the world and with volumn they can make money on indirect charges.

[Tom the Tenor]

That is exactly what the crowd at snn want you to keep thinking! Why cant you see it? Why should Cork not have it's own North Atlantic services? This would happen very quickly except for the stopover. The mindset that north Atlantic operations for passengers in or near the Cork area should obediently toddle off on a 2 hour plus drive to snn needs to nailed once and for all. This stopover is a visicious, unnecessary interference with market forces to keep overstaffed underemployed snn airport workers in their soft jobs living in cloud cuckoo land in their 1960s dreams of every airliner stopping on it's way to or from the Atlantic Ocean routes.

Look at how Cork has grown in the last few years - I am not going to be told that a successful north Atlantic route could not also be secured if everything else was equal.

And yet, what do we have to put up with at Cork? We have the worst weather and yet we have the worst navaids with a joke of an ILS with regular diversions to snn and kir. We have a short runway and very limited parking stand space which resulted in traffic being turned away from Cork regularly during the past summer! Can you believe this stuff? No buses or no airbridges resulting in thousands of passengers involving children and old people getting soaked to the skin after coming off sun and Lourdes flights and then getting blown away by the wind in their long walk back to the terminal. What a welcome home! And the high airport charges we as users have to pay for this kind of service!

Cork's new board will have it's metal tested soon with all these issues. Hopefully, the new board is up to the challenge. If not, the likes of snn will just laugh.