Air Atlanta Icelandic

[abarth]

Hey !!!

For all AAI drivers,

who will be interested in setting up a Forum for AAI ?

[isaacstraw]

Good suggestion.

Much better than airing dirty washing in "public." However, there is a long waiting list of organisations waiting to be allocated a private forum.

[dusk2dawn]

Roll your own - it isn't that difficult.

[18-Wheeler]

Can do quite easily.
Or do we want a sub-forum here?

[abarth]

Why don't we do it here ?

Can we set up a sub-forum ?

I never heard about that MSN forum.

Is it the same than the "for a better contract" that never went trough ?

[PPRuNe Towers]

We do have a queue of waiting companies worldwide but are just about to open up new private forums.

Experience shows that you're looking at approx 130 pilots/crew to get a reasonably healthy forum. This is based on many years of experience showing the proportion of contributors versus lurkers. Crew working for companies with widely dispersed bases find such forums particularly valuable. In these cases 2 mods covering different times zones, leave periods Etc. work very well. The system beautifully accomodates the road warriors amongst you - I'm running the entire site today from a laptop in a hotel room.

If interested we will have an experienced moderator to hand hold and show whoever is going to run the forums the ropes. Initially there is some workload to get to grips with the influx of permission to enter requests but after that it just takes a short period each day to keep an eye on things.

Because we give you server, software licencing, bandwidth and look after the entire technical side including rigorous backup to corporate standards we charge you a hundred bucks or equivalent per year. We make this clear to you upfront because any competent computer minded member of your company or others reading will be able to do this for free with the facilities offered by most ISP's. That is of course if you discount the time they put in creating and running the site.

Whichever way you decide to go it takes a bit of effort but it does pay off.

Regards
Rob

[Paladini]

As AAI has recntly "exploded" to numbers approaching 700, maybe it's time!

Just bought Islandsflug......do the numbers!

[HZ123]

'Times' UK states today that you are about to take over Air Excel as well.

[GlueBall]

Obviously the key to timely information exchange is called communication. Nowdays, anything less than an interactive website is prehistoric.

But any successful message board or forum as such should offer 100% participant anonymity, otherwise nobody will freely speak their mind.

Always the obstacle to such "dedicated" forums is the registration process; it's where the administrator, the webmaster, or somebody connected with the company will learn the participants' identity.

Because the forum administrator(s) could conceivably be or become stooges for management, no participant will be inclined to speak his/her mind fully, or seriously criticize management.

:ooh: :ooh: :ooh:

[abarth]

I agree. Confidentiality is the Key.

If we run that forum, we will have to make sure that in any case our names wont be released to the company without our permission.

[Atlanta-Driver]

Yip...

Confidentiality is the key, but this should not mean that all gloves come off and one can just say what ever tongue springs out of the old piehole.

How would we know who works for the company... 3L and ID??? And who should be trusted with this info? A moderator, but who? Should all employee groups be included or only pilots?

AD

[Woodman]

And would the non-Icelanders trust an Icelander to moderate? Or vice versa?

[abarth]

Different options.

If we use pprune as a sub-forum, it will be easy to pass the word through cockpits and have more and more guys loggin in.

We don't really care if there is non AAI drivers who come and chat with us, the most important is to get as many guys from the company as possible.

We could then, decide to elect a perfect stranger (lawyer, union representative ?) to talk with the management on our behalf.

Each participant would be sole responsible to contact that lawyer / union guy and pay is fee.

Once we have enough people we sent the guy to iceland and he will negociate for us.

I know, it looks a bit like 007 (this is not my number !) but everyone would be protected from any kind of retaliation.

[GlueBall]

abarth is on the right track: "If Pprune were used as a sub-forum, it would be easy to pass the word through cockpits and have more and more guys loggin in."

It would keep strangers off the forum, and it wouldn't really matter if management learnt of the "entry-password" as long as participants could enter with their Pprune screen name(s) and maintain complete anonymity.

In the long run it would even be beneficial for management to read the posts. Managers would get first hand raw feedback from the frontline "troops!" No moderator needed on a sub-forum.

...Such as: Repetitive issues about low morale in the pilot community because of inadequate compensation; Rostering complaints; Operational shortcomings;...But also about positive suggestions on how to improve quality of life issues, safety and mutual productivity.

Curiously, most quality of life issues encompass rostering which for the most part would involve only simple, non financial remedies. In the absence of professional management and without a professional pilots organization, nobody will stick his neck out to complain about anything. So, for the time being, this is the only way to go.
:ok:

[Waldo Salt]

Good post, GlueBall.

People in "high office" always loose track of reality when surrounded by yes people.

No offence to management, (at least one has already posted on this thread), but they should take a little bit more notice of the troops.

Don't worry chaps, they can't fire you all. Mind you, some dictators do have a habit of shooting the messenger.

If management are "worth their salt" they would respect you putting across you views. We have a marvellous median in the Internet so take advantage of it. Our predecessors in aviation didn't have such a luxury.

[BoeingBoy]

For what it's worth Gentlemen, I moderate the Air2000/First Choice Airways forum, and have done so since Danny left for Astreus.

Our forum is very busy with over half the pilot workforce subscribed including management and union council members aswell. To the best of my knowledge it is the busiest and most sucessfull private forum within PPRuNe.

Over the last few years I have tried to act not only as moderator but independant reporter, bringing news items from the company web sites and union sites alike. This has resulted in the forum becoming a focus for not only discussion but a source of information for pilots downroute along with those that have problems logging onto the company's intranet from home.

The management now value the site as a window into the crewroom to gauge feelings and feedback. In fact they have approached me to replicate the site within the companies server.
However PPRuNe can offer the one thing that internal servers can't and that is anonymity. Whatever the feelings of those that state that all posts should be identifiable the real truth of crews feelings can only be best portrayed when those who feel that perceived or real retribution may jeapardise their careers feel safe posting behind a pseudonym. Our site works well on that basis.

At no time have I had any pressure or enquiry from the company to curtail a post, or to reveal an identity.

If you want to set up an Air Atlantic forum I would encourage you to do it here. Your moderator should be a Captain of reasonable seniority who is viewed as an independant thinker and someone who is prepared to work alone between the waring factions of company and union. Occasionally the flak from both sides will land on his doorstep. He/She will need to be able to balance his views to see both sides of any argument in threads.

You will probably find that Air Atlanta will not object to the forum once they have found the benefits of seeing straight into the workforces current feelings and morale.


Good luck........BB



:)

[josephshankes]

Hi all.

You have your own forum. This one. Just keep it on the "boil". Not a big outlay really.

[AAIGUY]

Just heard the Fishheads want all the UK PAX crew to shift down to HadJ for christmas. Good Bloody Luck,

Lads, time to get organized. Time to get rid of Jerry O. Time to end this madness!

Last month I heard a rumour of job action it seems to have fizzled. Why can't we get this sorted!

[18-Wheeler]

Experience shows that you're looking at approx 130 pilots/crew to get a reasonably healthy forum.

AAI now has around 700 crewmembers. Got that from a staff meeting yesterday. Likely to be up around 800 by the middle of next year.

[CAT1]

Abarth,

I see your proposal for a new forum only mentions AAI crews. Does that mean that the AAE crews are not going to be invited to join?

[GlueBall]

CAT1: All slave drivers, sir. ...You know, the fellows who'll do a three-day safari; something like FRA-NBO-CAI-FRA...and be paid the equivalent princely sum of $750. And that's USD, not Euros, mind you. :(

[abarth]

The purpose is to get as many people as possible. I dont see any reason agaisnt having the AAE crew in the forum. Their conditions are not the same as ours but they are still flying for the same boss !

The more people getting through the forum the better. I have been told that the crew cost for AAI represent only 2% of the total revenue of the company. You have to take into consideration that in a normal airline, crew cost are around 10 to 15%.

That means that they have a huge potential to negociate. As we expend, it is the time to react and make them understand that we are no longer guinea pigs !!!

See below what was posted by "wassup" on the Air Atlanta upgrade forum !!!

The union already exists!!! It is my impression that most of Air Atlanta pilots have over the years been mislead to believe that FFF is the only pilot union in Iceland. FFF, the so called union that represent most, between 50-70, of the Icelandic and Scandinavian pilots within Air Atlanta, is not the only pilot union in Iceland. Air Atlanta dictates who and how many pilots are members of FFF at any given time....
The Icelandic Airline Pilots Association however,a member of IFALPA, ECA and NTF, is totaly indipendent and represents pilots from every airline and operator in Iceland including Icelandair and Islandsflug, even one pilot from Air Atlanta.
The upcoming merger between Islandsflug and Air Atlanta presents an ideal opportunity for Air Atlanta pilots to join the contract Islandsflug has with the Icelandic Airline Pilots Association and probably the best of all our little friend Jerry O´Sullivan has nothing to do or comes nowhere near that contract.
For more info www.fia.is and [email protected]

[Atlanta-Driver]

Not that I would not like to see some improvement with AAI on various areas but:

Quote " I have been told that the crew cost for AAI represent only 2% of the total revenue of the company. You have to take into consideration that in a normal airline, crew cost are around 10 to 15%." Unquote.

One needs to have the BS filter activated... A normal airline will have crew cost at around 25% to 40% of the revenue. Who ever told you that AAI figure is 2% is full of it and clearly does not know what he/she is talking about.

AD

[AAIGUY]

I heard the same figures being spoken out on the line, rumour or not we are grossly under paid because of our inability to get ourselves organized.

Now is the time. We get ourselves organized, we send off a letter to AAI with our demands, and if there is no action we walk off the job 4 days before Hadjj, say around the 9th of Dec.

If we can get 50 crews together, they will have to listen to us.

[count me in]

You are certainly on the right track.

The problem I see is this. The crews who are on a contract, means that. They have agreed to the conditions.

There is nothing to stop a group resigning , then renegotiate a new contract, just before the hadjj.

[wassup]

I heard the same figures being spoken out on the line, rumour or not we are grossly under paid because of our inability to get ourselves organized.

So now is the time to get our act together and get organized. The Icelandic Pilots Association will probably be happy to assist in the matter.

If one takes a hard look on the terms conditions of the Airborne/ACE contract in light of that AAI is operating more and more in a regular Airline enviroment, it is obvious that it greatly undermines the work of pilot unions and associations over the years.

Let´s act now, give them a call or send an email.
[email protected], www.fia.is
It can´t get worse.

[AAIGUY]

I would trust the Icelandic Union not to pass on names to AAI.

I suspect a third party may be required.

[count me in]

I wouldn't, as far as I could kick them.

[GlueBall]

Once any growing company's employe count reaches critical mass, the formation of a union is not only inevitable, it's of practical necessity, not just for the employes, but equally so for the employer.

It matters not whether employes are "in-house" or employed indirectly as "contractors" through a hodgepodge of crew leasing companies. Historical facts at ALPA and IBT airline divison show that managements at large air carriers cannot successfuly interact (in an unbiased atmosphere) with individual employes as opposed to interacting with a uniquely structured, organized employe group.

There are mutual benefits, including two-way feedback on operational, safety, and fair compensation issues. Even confrontational managers at Ryan Air have learnt that it must find a way to interact constructively with its 500+ pilots or perish. RAEPA (http://breakingnews.iol.ie/news/story.asp?j=2573550&p=z573565&n=2573642) ;)

[toldyaso]

Lot of negative comments about AAI. Seems to be a lot of unhappy troops out there.

Any management or cheerleaders out there care to comment and provide some sort of balance. There are always 2 sides to every story.

[wassup]

As said before the The Icelandic Pilots Association is totally independent and would for sure not give Air Atlanta any names.
They hold a grudge against AAI for undermining their work over the years and are probably just waiting to represent poor sods like us that have taken the beat from little hobbits like Jerry O.

A lawyer or a third party will work just fine by me just as long the ball starts rolling soon, remember the Hajj is just around the corner.

Just send them a line or call them, you might be in for a surprise, the union of course not AAI;) .

[747CLASSIC]

There are too many guys at AAI that are in the 55+ age bracket that want to just ride things out for the next few years and not make waves. Their thinking is, "a little money is better than no money". There is nowhere else for most of these guys to go. Sad, very sad. There are so many good guys at AAI and AAI is taking advantage of them.

classic

[GlueBall]

Actually, 747CLASSIC, it works both ways. The 55+ folks (I'm not in that group yet), many of whom are well to do, are more likely to stand up and "squeak" when contractual work conditions are being squeezed.

For instance, many members of this distinguished group are always first to enforce common sense issues like limitations of duty hours and "fatigue creep."

Hotel standards: If booked hotel rooms aren't available, these older folks won't put up with lesser standard accommodations; rather, they will be first to insist on upgraded accommodations.

Most members of the 55+ crowd are respected and dignified professionals who won't easily be pushed around by management. This usually is the case at all airlines. Most older guys are not afraid to lose their jobs, so they are much more inclined to stand up to management and to pursue improved quality of life issues. It's usually the younger pilots who screw themselves and everybody else by allowing management to walk all over them. If only they'd pick up a cue from the 55+ crowd and insist on practical reality. And rostering sanity.

[Phil Squares]

I was employed by AAI/Direct for a few years. I can say honestly, I have never been associated with a better group of pilots, both 55+ and below 55. The company, well that's another story.

I left AAI several months ago and found it was the best thing I had done. Working for a "real" airline is amazing. Especially when you compare what AAI is doing to and expects from people.

Forget trying to get any type of "union" or "job action". The real problem is unless you're a FFF you don't work directly for AAI. That presents real problems. ACE/Airborne or Direct aren't going to do anything about the conrtact because it's not in their best intrest.

My advice, keep your options open. If you like working at AAI, great! If not, there are plenty of options in today's market. You have Air China, Asiana, SIA and Korean (supposed to start in the next 3 months). So, there are other jobs out there. Most will take people up to 57.

[Waldo Salt]

The example of the Ryan air pilots should be followed. They have got themselves organized and they have fewer pilots than AAI.

That fat weasel JOS was from the above mentioned, so it answers a lot of questions on why AB crews are treated with utter contempt. He doesn't know any better.

It's the old story, "treat people badly, they will behave badly." Therefore the crews vent their frustrations in public, on this thread and others.

[AAIGUY]

Ah the goat **** continues at AAI..... Pilots now being threated by Iceland when they are sick and unable to fly. ANother pilot being flown off base to ceover a flight and a new pilot being flown in to cover his flight (leaving in 12hrs) Why did they not send guy # 3 to replace the first guy, why becasue their bloody stupid fish heads.

I need out.Thanks Phil SQ, I will look at the companies you mentioned. I even heard of a UK FO and FE leaving for Orient Thai!!

[maverick1980]

hi to all,
i would like to know how it is working for air atlanta icelandic. i just got offered a contract by jerry o'sullivan and was contemplating whether i should take it up or not. firstly the pay is kinda low for 747 FE ($5250). is the flying long haul? how is the accomodation they provide?

if someone could fill me in on some insider details of the company and work rules and so on i would greatly appreciate it.

thanks

[crundale]

Do we really need to go through all this AGAIN???

Dearest Maverick, use the search function and you will find 100s of threads which will tell you much more than you need to know.
If you are free to relocate, footloose and young, its great. If you want stable home based family life its crap.
Air Atlanta Europe however.... that is an earthly paradise with excellent T&Cs, rosters made by angels and is the greatest job on Jerry's own Earth.

And before everyone starts again - give him a chance to use the search!!!

:ok:

[747fanatic]

I heard Phuket airlines took some of the past AAI business with Saudia and Garuda for the Hajj.

[maverick1980]

thanks crundale, i shall use the search feature to get all the info.

regards
maverick1980

[747fanatic]

maverick1980:

Is 1980 your year of Birth. a 24 year old B747 FE... some thing just does not seem right.

[maverick1980]

747Fanatic:

my dad is a 747 FE and not me. he is 60 and retired from air-india. i was just wanting to get some information for him as he is still interested in flying for a couple more years.

[Jerry O Springer]

Moy Dear lovely chaaps!

Dis oy hear me name crappin up again in dis tread? Do some O ya tink oim acting d Maggott? Well as it'll nat be d forst toime Oi've had to put me toil aside an RE assure you guys dat its aaalways you I'm tinkin of!
Ok, catch Yerselves on wit me goys - We know dat its over 700 of you lovely Floightdeck guys I'm having to pay now. Watchin them wages cheques leave breaks me heart so it does. D' new fiscal policy Is: Pay one in ten as time-served men, the rest as Bengal Lancers. (D old rhoyming slang there; 'King Chancers!)
Now caaalm y'sels lads, Oim only d messenger an I'm workin on yer salaries, workin reel herd!

Some say I do for pilot contracts what yer maan Bill Gates did for computers! Oy say B'Jes, Mary +Joseph OI'll be der witchya Boys, there at yr side in Jeddah offerin me moral support to d weak among ya. Now bein d good Catolic sort an aal, Oi may be caaled away to deal with some needy Dublin Nuns around Hajj time in which case...

OI'LL BE TINKIN OF YA AALL, WITCHA IN SPIRIT, TINKIN OF YA LAADS !!!

[c3000]

Hey guys VERY interesting reading! As bad as it all sounds I remain interested in AAI for a Cabin Crew contract for the Hajj.

I know this is a very different question for the discussion at hand, and I did post it in the "Nordic Forum", but is anyone have knowledge of contracts that will going through this year for Hajj?

From the second hand (most likely sixth) news I have received there is less flying and thus less contracts available. If anyone could offer some information it would be appreciated.

Thanks guys,

Regards,

M.

[maverick1980]

hi,
could someone please explain to me how the base bid system at air atlanta works. do i get a choice or is it randomly assigned.

secondly, is the salary provided tax free at all bases or is the initial $5250 taxed as per the local tax brackets.

thirdly, how is the accomodation provided by AAI. are teh hotels/apartments good and clean or are they really crappy ones.

i would appreciate if someone could help me out with these queries as i would like to make a decision asap about the contract being offered to me.

thanks

[AAIGUY]

They will move your base randomly, there is no "senority", hotels range from 5* to 1*. If another airline is paying it will be good, if it is AAI's bill the go for cheap.

[6feetunder]

Mav,

If you are currently employed, stay where you are. If you aren't then anything will work, right? Who cares about bases and seniority when you aren't working. But like I said if you are employed elsewhere then stay there, this is not the place for you.

[747CLASSIC]

In my opinion, one of biggest problems with AAI is the fact that most of the middle level management positions are all filled by X-Flight Attendants! They were not put there for their management skills, training or back ground. They were put there because they did a good job as a F/A.
I remember four and five years ago when I flew the hajj for AAI and was staying in the Rose Village in JED the person that assigned who stayed in what villa was a X-F/A. Pilots were assigned to the worst villa's. I remember one case where 5 pilots were staying in a 5 bedroom villa while some F/A's were staying in a 2 bedroom "love nest" with his or her girlfriend! The same was true for MAD. The nicer hotel rooms went to F/A's.
Who ever heard of an airline that was SUCCESSFULLY run by F/A's?

classic

[toldyaso]

classic

Was your post, a misprint?? Hell I hope so.

If not, you have to be joking!!

I am becoming really scared now, all due respects to F/A's

[matkat]

Classic,what rooms are You talking about in MAD? I must have stayed in about 20 different ones and they were all the same(Bad)However I totally agree with You about rose village,I was there in 1995 and the villas the maint.guys were given were awful.

[abarth]

Guys,

This sub-forum is not designated to be a place where we could discuss abourt what hapened 3 or 5 years ago during the Hadj.

Are we going for it yes or no !

Thats the only question we should ask !

[747CLASSIC]

abarth,

"Are we going for it yes or no!" WHAT???

I think the history of a company is very relevant. A dog can't change it's spots over night. 3-5 years IS relevant. It is not just 3-5 years. They have a long history of cockpit crew mistreatment.

matkat,

You are correct, there were not many nice rooms in MAD. You can bet your butt that the nice ones went to F/A's!

toldyaso,

It is no joke. If you do do time with AAI ask some of the middle managers what they did when they first started at AAI. See for yourself.

[mutt]

Hajj starts in about 6 weeks, is AAI flying it this year? If so, which Hajj are they actually operating for whom?

It is no joke. If you do do time with AAI ask some of the middle managers what they did when they first started at AAI. Never worked for AAI, but know this to be true.


Mutt.

[sweety]

747CLASSIC,

I was kind of hoping you were trying to be funny about F/A's. I am now starting to doubt that.

Being one of them I am interested - what exactly is your point? Are you saying that if you work as a F/A you are not capable of being a Manager? I know Managers in a few airlines (and not only airlines for that matter) who started as being Cabin Crew and later on made wonderful Managers.

Do you have something against us - if so, what is it?

I do not like fighting and please forgive me if I've taken this the wrong way. I am just surprised at your attitude towards your crew members.

[747CLASSIC]

sweety,

Nothing personal, I've had some very enjoyable times with F/A's.

I've flown pax and I've flown boxes. I perfer boxes.

I'm from the old school where the Capt. was always in charge.

AAI used to be run by the owner's wife (X-F/A) and the people she promoted were the people she knew (F/A's). It had nothing to do with management skills or training.

"And that's all I have to say about that"!

classic

[toldyaso]

Now i'm not an AAI cheerleader, or an idiot but I can spot a con a mile off.

I reckon everyone that is going to stay in the KSA for the Hajj, is going to be ok. Don't think there is any reason whatsoever for any type of industrial action.

Had a word with Jerry the other day and he really filled me with confidence, especially on the security front, among other things. On the topic of accommodation, he was straight down the line and honest. (Well, as honest as he could be.) He mentioned there was the odd rumour circulating, that some of the rooms were not quite 5 stars. On a brighter note, he said he would” lead by example” so nothing for anyone to worry about.

His post on this thread proves beyond a shadow of a doubt, this Saudi thing is a storm in a teacup.

[sweety]

OK, 747CLASSIC, I know what you mean. It is just the way you put it,- like ALL F/A's are useless or something? I know some of us are a bit dizy, but there are quite a few who in some cases have more sense than some of the new F/O's (dare I say CPT's?;) too?).

Now, I'll not be interfering here any more, I mean I have nothing to say about the original question here in this topic anyway! I was just browsing through (I've got loads of time on my hands now) and noticed those comments about F/A's...:hmm:

[AAIGUY]

I agree we have some usless FA's, BUT

Asta in europe is awesome at her job. I don't know if Baddi was ever a FA but he is fantastic. 2 Thumbs up to Len aswell.

FRA and DXB ops are balls.

[mutt]

toldyaso,

AAI refused some Hajj contracts due to security concerns, what has changed their mind? I certainly havent seen any enhancement in the local security since that time.


Mutt.

[Earl]

I read the previous post from toldyaso with a bit of concern.
I hope what he was told was not from a reliable person that has any knowledge of the situation here in Jed.
We are still in a compound with 50 cal guns humvees and sand bags.
The US government is still putting out for us to leave.
Last message dated Oct 27 2004.
The French company working here refuses to come back and complete their work due to the risk and the last shooting.
The only change is no expat has been shot to my knowledge in the past 2 weeks.
The calm before the storm, who knows?
Storm in a teacup?
Who ever is putting out this information is obviously, number one, not here, number two does not care.
I think who ever put out this information went to way too many peace demonstrations back in the 60's and did far too many drugs, Cheap ones.
If you come to Jed you have to be extremely careful.
Read the latest advisories, If the hotel or compound does not comply, ask to be moved elsewhere or leave.
Also check your life insurance policy, mine is not valid anymore from the USA if something happens here, all companies have different terms and conditions, so check with them.
If their were other decent jobs available I would be gone untill the security and political climate improved if ever.
With the recent news from the fanatics on TV, its not a time to be relaxed.

[747CLASSIC]

Paladini,

You are absolutely correct! I was trying not to go there. As difficult as it for me some times, I was trying to stay politically correct.
It would be good to see Mark have to go back out and fly the line. That way he could see what he has done!
They must have a secret handshake that was used during the interview.

classic

[montys ex teaboy]

Just as a matter of interest, what is the ratio between female (I love them all) and male (ball baring hostesses), cabin crew at AAI?:O

[count me in]

Obviously Paladini, wasn't PC enough as he has been rubbed out!!

[Paladini]

Mea Culpa, Mr Moderator...

Although I tend to call a spade, a spade.... I will attempt to rein the ascerbic wit in a bit in future posts.

[maverick1980]

hi,
could someone please give me all the info there is about the dubai base for AAI. my dad is doing his training rite now at gatwick and has put dubai as his first choice base. i would appreciate if someone could give me info regarding the accomodation and the flying out of dubai and anything else that is important.

thanks
mav1980

[747fanatic]

maverick1980,
Does your dad hold an FAA License?

[maverick1980]

no he holds a ICAO license. why do u ask?

mav1980

[747fanatic]

Cuz i recall you mentioning yur dad being from Air India and i was wondering if AAI would accept an Indian License. Tough times for them i guess. I hope your dad has read the forums! It aint pretty out there.

[Akro]

Can anyone give me please some information about T&C, Rosters, Night-Stops, Routes, lifestyle and so on ..... (as much as possible really) about Air Atlanta Europe (B767)??

Any info is highly appreciated! Thanks a lot.

[Earl]

Yes Mutt have to agree once again.
They backed out due to security concrerns but yet that still operate into KSA.
I heard from a few Captains that they don't have the crews and used this as an excuse, stating their union would not allow it.
Whay union, the FFF, the contract pilots have no say what so ever, which is the majority of the company?
How on one hand can you say they will back out on the security clause and then still operate in here with layovers with Gauruda and Maylasian, with a a layover in a less secure envioroment?
This place is not safe.
Safe for one contract and not another?

[Atlanta-Driver]

It's a different cup of tea to have 500 people based in KSA than have a few fly in and out...

Reasons for the company declining or accepting contracts has nothing to do with me nor am I in a position to comment on the matter.
However, I would think that laws of economics have probably with the security and logistical considerations played a big part when deciding what contract to go for. You guys should know this, but guess stirring the pot is more fun, eh?

AD

[Earl]

Not stirring the pot here AA Driver.
I understand that they were offered secure housing, on Saudia City gaurded by saudi national gaurd, and backed out of a signed contract due to a security clause. stating their pilots union refused to come to KSA.
The Saudi National Gaurd leaves a lot to be desired, especially after recent events, but is much safer than any hotel here in jeddah.
This compound is even reviewed by others for security to include the US and British Consulate.
Hotels are not and are even advised against staying to include the rental car agencies.
Perhaps they made the decision as you stated based on fewer personel at risk
This was weeks ago.
Maybe they seen the writing on the walls and sensed this was going to get worse.
Cant blame them for that.
I am sure that after the attacks on the US consulate here they made a wise decision.

[Akro]

Can anyone give me please some information about T&C, Rosters, Night-Stops, Routes, lifestyle, atmosphere in the Company and so on ..... ,as much as possible really, about Air Atlanta Europe (B767 operation out of Gatwick or Manchester)?? Basically, anything that might be of interest to a pilot who has to make up his mind weather he wants to work for AAE or not! :-)

(I know it's a bit off the topic right now but the original thread was called "Air Atlanta Icelandic", so I figured AAE would fit here too!)

Any info is highly appreciated! Thanks a lot to all that are willing to answer (yes, I do know that this might have been discussed before, but a search did not bring up the desired results and as I understand things are changing fast with AAE any way)!

[abra]

Akro..check your pms,and before you go to the AAE interview,learn the difference between weather and whether or else the technical questions might run away from you!

[Akro]

Thanks so far!

(abra did you check your pm?)

[inept]

An AAI sub-forum would be a great vehicle for communication between drivers. PPrune-Towers says 100 bucks per year! I'll gladly pay it, as I know it will be repaid in beer. Sooo.. Let's get the ball rolling. As an FNG, it's a great way to procure info on this rapidly expanding operation.

[BULK CARGO]

Just to add up insults in the way that A.A.I. treat the contract pilot`s .................... The F.F.F. pilots have received an increase of 26% in salary !! It appears that this increase was made effective at the beginning of the month

And just to make this all the more of an insult ........the mechanics have also received an increase !!

The time has come , that a forum for us contract pilot`s must get off the ground .............. we have to do something.

This revalation , was announced in Dubai some days ago !!

[outbackjack]

Gidday!
It´s a riper mate!!

[workmelikedog]

I see!
What was offered to the contract pilots?
More lies and deciet.
Wake up guys, you need to form a union.

[abra]

just heard Atlanta Europe crews have a payrises..Capts fom 62K going up to 65K
F/o's from 40K to 42K
nobody told..just came through the Jan pay packets

[Loc-out]

Let me tell you chaps something. Blowing hot air on this forum, or any other for that matter, won't do you any good at all.

You chaps have to stand up for your rights. Vote with your feet and walk off the job, now!! You won't will you. That is the very reason why you guys are being shafted, good and proper. All "mouth and trousers" and no action. Typical pilots.

Just a word of warning. If you look on the 1st page of this thread, you will find a poster that has the handle beginning with P. This individual is AA "management" with editing powers on this site, so beware. Pprune works in stange ways, does it not?

AAI "management" must be p*****g in their pants laughing at you lot, with all that hot air and no action.

[Jetdriver]

Well to answer your "word of warning". As the moderator of this forum, with powers to edit, I am not aware that (save for the possibility of language edits) there has been any editing at all to this thread. Of course individual posters can and do edit their own posts as indeed is their right. However if you would like to contact me with your specific concern, I will be happy to investigate the matter for you.

[Phil Squares]

I left AAI many, many months ago. It was the best move I ever made. To all the AAI pilots, there is life outside AAI. The management there doesn't care about you.

The same threads are still going on now as when I was there. The same deal about what the FFF get and the other pilots don't get. It's all the same and it's not going to change until people start to vote with their feet.

All this talk about an organization isn't going anyplace. If you're not FFF you're contract and can be dropped in a second. And they will.

[18-Wheeler]

Can someone please send me the numbers on what the contract Captain's get per day?
Specifically, first year, second year, third and fourth year dairly rates.
I think I'm being short-changed and want to be sure before I really put my foot down.

[Jerry O Springer]

Now Billy,
yous knows oim always in yer corner, aint it da truth! but fairs fair, an foist year is foist year.
but lemme ask yous, 5 years wit dis airline, and yous asking dis now??? oi tought yous was a card carrying member o dat bright boys club??
but lemme sleep on it, and oi ll see whats oi can do, oim on it, oi tell ya, OIM ON IT!!!

[18-Wheeler]

Thanks Jerome!!! :)

I found out the rate I should be getting paid at, I will be sticking to that.

[COP]

Hi everyone
Just wondering how Air Atlanta are travelling at the moment. What contracts do they have and are they long term contracts. As a pilot with AAI on the 747 what is it like. What are the best places to be based if you are based anywhere at all? Is there chance for upgrade after a few years with the company if you are a hard working employee? Is there any chance that down the track AAI may get an entire fleet of 747 400's to replace the 200's? And finally are AAI employing at the moment?
Any info greatly appreciated
Thanks:D

[DELTABOY]

From what I know AAI have contracts & bases presently in Jeddah, Madrid, Paris, along with an occasional New York base for Universal Airlines & Buenos Aires for Southern Winds ( though I hear SW are in diffuculties or have gone bankrupt) . Those tend to be the most longer term bases but things are changing all the time & they could pick up work anywhere in the world & at any time. Its a very nomadic existence working for these guys & its certainly not for everyone. They currently operate a mixed fleet of B-747 mainly 200 & 300, but also operate 2x B747-400 for Iberia at the Madrid base, I believe thats with Iberia's own flightcrew, not AAI, but I may be wrong. They also have a very successful & expanding Cargo fleet with bases in Europe, the Middle & Far East.
The Air Atlanta Europe operation in the UK will be fleeted this year with around 5 or 6 B-747-200/300 plus the B-767-200/300ER's & B-757-200's, which operate for associate airline Excel Airways. Its a good mixture of long & short haul flying for these guys with basis at LGW & MAN, but I believe its a different contract than AAI, certainly from the Cabin crew's point of view anyway.
I worked for them in the past & they were ok, a bit different from your usual conventional airlines, but its certainly interesting with a good variety of work & bases around the world.

To answer your question about flight deck promotion, I understand that it is quite quick with AAI/AAE. They have alot of expansion planned & due to the nomadic existence they tend to have quite a high turn over of staff.
Speaking to friends in the cabin side of AAE, the company will eventually introduce more & more B-747-400 into the passenger fleet to replace the 200/300\'s, although it is always dependant on getting the right machines at the right price. The 400 is still an expensive bit of kit.
Bases that are probably not recommended would be in my opinion Jeddah, its abit unstable around there at the moment in terms of personal safety. Also alot of the AAI guys seem to dislike being in the UK, but at the end of the day its purely a personal choice.. What works for one may not work for another, but at least you have that choice & flexibilty with these guys.
Good Luck if you decide to give them a go:ok:

[Atlanta-Driver]

No JED base since Hajj 03-04. Bases at the mom are LUX, FRA, DXB, KUL, HKG, MAN and LGW. Paris is a 767 base. ALG has been a base in the last year for both Umrah and Hajj.
B744's are operated by AAI crews, not IB.
We have more -400's coming, I doubt though that those will be introduced to UK or AAE.

AD

[COP]

Hey Atlanta Driver
The freight business seems to be getting bigger globally. Do you think AAI will grow with this worldwide expansion? The noimadic existence that seems to accompany this type of job, how do you find it. Is it hard on your family (if you have one?) The company has in the past recieved a less than glowing review, but is this a true indication of what they are like in 2005? I seriously doubt that an airline that is expanding could be like the people describe in this forum. Are any of the guys leaving and going to European or Ocean? What is the go with the 747's going to Excel for the summer? Has there been an increase in work that require the 747. Will they stay on the Icelandic register or go to the G reg. Long term what will be the future for this company - in your opinion? How do you go about getting in? Is a type rating required?
Thanks :ok:

[AAIGUY]

To answer some of the above questions..
1)Divorce is imminent if you accept a job here. No family life and they don't care..
2)Type rating required unless you are a JAR licence then a heart beat and 250hrs will do. For NON JAR you need a type and 1500 hrs multi crew for validation.
3)AAI is expanding by a plane or two every quarter.
4)People are leaving for Ocean and European, depending on your personal situation it may be better or worse. AAI atleast always pays ontime and is fairly stable.
5)Aircraft are staying TF reg. In fact I understand they are trying to get out of the UK thing all together, its causing a lot of difficulty. But who really knows..
6)Company will be around a longtime I think

Not sure what your other questions were..
Its OK here, but most are looking for a way out. I think though guys at Emirates are also looking for way out..its the nature of being a pilot.

[Flybob]

Could be worse,
At least they pay on time and they have lots of work available.
Thats about as good as it gets in ACMI contracting.

[16 blades]

2)Type rating required unless you are a JAR licence then a heart beat and 250hrs will do. For NON JAR you need a type and 1500 hrs multi crew for validation.

This, from www.ppjn.com seems to suggest otherwise:
Those with a European ATPL License but not Type Rated on B747 or B767 need not apply.

Which is it?

16B

[Phil Squares]

Just my opinion, I wouldn't go near AAI/AAE if it's the last option available. It's worse than anyone can imagine. Spent some time there years ago and leaving was the best thing that happened to me.

[411A]

<<Aircraft are staying TF reg. In fact I understand they are trying to get out of the UK thing all together, its causing a lot of difficulty. But who really knows..>>

Difficulty?

I'll bet...as in having to actually fix the aeroplane from time to time.
The UK CAA sticking their nose in too deeply, are they?:uhoh:

[AAIGUY]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Those with a European ATPL License but not Type Rated on B747 or B767 need not apply.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Not true.

They should have said "Those WITHOUT.."
No type is required for JAR pilots.

quote:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'll bet...as in having to actually fix the aeroplane from time to time.
The UK CAA sticking their nose in too deeply, are they?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

I believe it has to do with mixed licensing of crews (ie Icelandic validation not good for G reg)., but may have something to do with the CAA too.

Phil SQ is mostly right. If you have a good job with a national carrier go there. This job can be great for some, but most toil here till they find a better situation.

HOWEVER, I have always been treated well, paid on time, and been off (all be it without pay) when I needed to be.

[16 blades]

So, what view does AAI take on ex-Mil (AT) pilots? Are they viewed favourably? Will a JAR fATPL and about 1500hrs TT get you in the door?

16B

[AAIGUY]

We have some 250hr FO's. I am sure your experience is fine.

[Earl]

AAI offers little or no qaulity family time.
If you take the time off then it is without pay.
Not many of us can afford that.
If you are single and like to move around quite a bit then it may be for you.
I left AAI many months ago, what happened to the new and inproved contract that was being offered?
This without a salary reductoin would have stopped most of the high turn over.
A happy crewmember spending a little time with the family would have boosted moral quite a bit and also benifited the company.
But staying away from home for months at a time and only returning without pay to see your family was really bad.
When they strat screwing around with the family life after months away from home it makes the rest of the problems you are forced to do a no go issue.

No per diem or expences either.For someone new in the industry and building time this is a good place to be.
But if you are married, have to pay your bills and stay there then count on the worst.
Its really sad a little creative scheduling and a small increase in giving the crews this time off would be the best for all involved.
But the bean counters dont see it that way.

[COP]

Earl
I have been doing some searching and find that there are quite a few jobs out there at the moment. Would you given your experiences, pay for an endorsement and go somewhere like Pacific Blue in New Zealand, where the work is also contract and the future is uncertain as Chris Corrigan holds a majority in the Virgin Blue and therefore Pac Blue? 737NG V's 747 Classic? Is AAI here for the long term or not? That begs the question are small off shoot companies like Pac Blue (3 aeroplanes) operating from NZ to the Pacific and Australia with a lot of competition going to be aroundm that long, with all the competition and Corrigan possibly re-shaping the company?

[Atlanta-Driver]

Dear Phil Squares. As you so nicely put it, you spent "Some" time with AAI years ago. So your info is probably not up to date.

Earl. Its been a while since you left to Kingdom of boredom. Things are chaging.

With permanent basing contracts now available with apartments AAI is increasingly catering for crews with families. DXB and KUL bases have both large nice 2-3 bedroom apartments for crews. Lots of wifes and kids on those places. Looks like LUX is going to get apartments as well.

Rosters have been holding, however what can company do if customer airline cancels or adds a flight. This is ACMI business and it is inherently different from normal airline flying. Works for some doesn't for others.

411A. Hows your 1011 company going... Our airplanes are flying, more than just a pipedream. We have heard your maintenance BS about 100 times. It is a load of garbage. Have anything new to say?

[Formally Known As]

16 blades

Well, the previous "CP" was ex-military, so you would have been snapped up, real quick, if you are ex-mil. However the present "CP's" aviation back ground, not to mention experience,
is some what different,
If you are of the same race, you would, in all probability, be taken on without a tech and sim evaluation. Just a nice little chat, such is the extent of the neopotism within AAI.

[Earl]

Atlanta Driver happy to hear things are finally changing there.
I do know that the ACMI business works a little different from the rest such as a major airline.
Family life is reallt important to a sucessful
operation.
Being away from home for months is not good.
My last base with AAI I seen my family for 8 days in a 6 month period.
So you can imagine everything else was a no go issue.
If the changes are being made to where your family can join you then its a big improvement.
When I first went to work with AAI I was LGW based, family was allowed.
It was one of the best jobs I ever worked.
Kingdom of Boredom?
We are more worried about the fanatics, no time to be bored.
Anyway happy to hear things are changing.

[16 blades]

What does a newhire F/O take home per month, on average?

16B

[montys ex teaboy]

F'''all, to answer your question.

[16 blades]

Thanks. That's helpful.

16B

[AAIGUY]

16B ,

It really depends on your backround, as an FO anywhere from 3500 to 6500 a month. If they type you and you have no time you start at 125 a day or something stupid. If you are typed you get atleast 175 usd a day and up.

[aaaaa]

Can anyone say how many female Captains and FOs are employed and are they expected/allowed to go on Hadj flights?

aa

[Earl]

I have seen a female cockpit crewmember
here in uniform but not with AAI.
Thats a big step for these people.
I am sure they would get over it really quick, they would have too.
Since 911 they realise they have to change..
We are starting to see women driving here also, but its only reported when they have an accident.
They are trying to change in KSA but its really slow.
Flying with the USAF during the first Gulf War their were many problems with this.
I would think this would be the next step all though one that should be approached with caution.
Culture is really hard to change for what ever reason.

[c3000]

Hey guys,

Just a question. Do they hire internationals as cabin crew? I know that AAE just had a hiring blitz in the UK but as much as I love the UK; I'd like to be based elsewhere. In light of the reduction in the Hajj flights I was wondering if anything was going on there.

Thanks in advance.

M.

[AAIGUY]

We have a number of female cockpit crew at AAI. I have no idea if any of them did Hadjj, but the offer of the Hadjj bonus did not say they couldn't so I suspect they may have.


C3000,

We do have international cabin crew. HOWEVER, almost all our pax flights are out of the UK at the moment. AAI is now 80% cargo and 20 % pax, if not higher on the cargo end. That being said, I am on the B747, The B757's may have a different deal..

[Deske1]

I need some help,where to apply?

I have B747-400 F/O rating but only 250 hrs,TT 3000.

No JAA,only ICAO licence.

[AAIGUY]

Without a JAR license you require 1500 hrs in a multi-pilot aircraft (ie 2 crew above 5700KG if not bigger). obviously with 250 in the -400 you only need 1250 more multi crew. Not sure if you have it or not. A number of guys were turned back last year by the ICAA for this reason.

If you do have it, give old Jerry a ring in LGW. He'll sort you out..sort of:uhoh:

[Atlanta-Driver]

MPA= Multi Pilot Aircraft. 1500h requirement refers to expereience gained on aircraft type certified for 2 or more "pilots"(Flight Engineer time does not count) and usually refers to aircraft certified under FAR/JAR 25, that is transport category aircraft.

AD

[510orbust]

Anyone know of any course dates being run for AAI or AAE

thanks 510

[AAIGUY]

The same course is run for the AAE and AAI guys . Your class will be mixed.

I understand they are way behind in training. No idea about new hire courses

[yoohoo748]

Looking through this thread I've found both good and bad. Being recently out of a job I am on the search for a new place to hang my hat. Air Atlantic does interest me but I would like to know more about upgrades and captain pay. (I have over 7000 hours, 5000 PIC, 1500 medium jet with 1200 of that command, and an ICAO ATPL). Also, is the pay adjusted depending on which base you are currently assigned? Are you able to bid or request for certain bases? Am I right in assuming that some bases are of a very temporary nature where as others are almost permanent? Good and bad responses are appreciated as I know that there are usually two sides to every story.

Thanks in advance

[Earl]

Yoohoo,
You have to go through the threads and make a decision.
I left AAI after many years, I am told that many changes have been made there now from some good sources.
When I was there towards the end it was not good.
They do pay your basic salary on time.
Do the Airbourne contract, Direct will not back you for anything if you encounter a problem.
Whatever the contract says with Direct they are nothing more than a Bank Transfer Company.
Even then you pay them to transfer your pay.
Was the main reason I resigned, got tired of the lies and bullshxxt.
They will tell you not to operate against the regulations but when the are put to the test the fail really bad.
No credibal backing what so ever, even if they know and admit you are correct.
They are only in it for the money.
Have many complaints to these people and was told that if I pushed these issues in my contract then it would be considered handshake money.
Never heard this from the Ace/Airbourne pilots.
Years ago they had credibility. not any longer.
You do get to go to some off the wall places that most never see.
A lot of fun if things have changed.

[canadair]

and that is after! editing
love to see the before.:D

[Whaledog]

aaiguy,
Confirm that was 125 -175 a day?? Are the wages that much out of sync with the states???