RAF Control

[Tornado FL160]

Does anybody work for the RAF as an Air Traffic Controller as I am thinking of entering. Any views or opinions of what it is like?

[matc2]

The ATC task is very different in the RAF and the Qualifications will be of little use if you plan to return to a Civilian ATC Career by your mid-thirties.

If you want to join the RAF for the whole life style experience then that's different...go for it.

If your primary desire is to become an Air Traffic Controller then stop and look carefully at the Civil Options. I'm sure others will fill in the detail.

[Whipping Boy's SATCO]

matc2 sums it up quite well. If you want to talk military, please e-mail me and I will endeavour to help. Regardless, it's worthwhile looking very close at both options because they are very different.

Fly Safely..........

[Fedupwithitall]

I think the main difference is :

In the RAF you are an Officer (or NCO) first and an air traffic controller second.

In Civvies it's the other way around (unless you want to "brown-nose" it and think you can have a career instead of being an ATCO !)

Either way, you get to control aircraft........it's the priority that you have to work out for yourself. But if you ARE career minded, then I would suggest the RAF rather than Civvies.

(OOoooopppss.........spelling !) :)

[This message has been edited by Fedupwithitall (edited 21 June 2001).]

[Spoonbill]

Personally, I would not view the RAF as a "career".
'An officer first and a controller second' just about sums it up.
As has been pointed out, the two jobs differ greatly, and the longer you spend within the institutionalised environment, particularly within the atc sector, the harder it is to make it through to the civillian side.
Very few military atcos make it through the civillian exams - that said, those that take the plunge and succeed tend to be very good atcos. Amazing how the thought of blowing £45K away concentrates the mind!
My recommendation would be to go for either the NATS or Eurocontrol cadetships, (Eurocontrol are advertising this week in flight). The competition is very tough and the courses even harder, with a high failure rate, but, the rewards are worth it.
You could join a non - NATS atc unit at a regional airport as an ATC assistant, and work your way through - many UK airports are now training their own atcos because of the national shortage.
Whichever route you take - good luck. :)

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It wasn't me.

[The Sad ATCO]

Having tried both routes, I concur with most of what has been posted so far. However, Spoonbill's reply talking about <font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">institutionalised environment</font> and <font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">very few military atcos make it through the civillian exams</font> would tend to suggest that he is speaking from the civvy side of the fence only. He is also not correct about everyone having to <font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">blow £45K</font>, as I didn't shell out a penny to get my civvy licences! I work with a good number of civvy ATCOs now that I also knew or worked with when they were RAF bods. The one common factor is that we all enjoyed the ATCing but not particularly the service life and decided to 'jump ship'. For many reasons, I feel much more settled in civillian ATC.

However, there is absolutely no reason why you can't do a Short Service Commission of 6 or 8 years and then get out into NATS. As an ATCO, I have found the civvy job more demanding and better financially rewarded. However, you will have opportunities to do things in the forces that are not present elsewhere (and I don't mean SDO on a Bank Holiday weekend!!). You really need to have a good look at both and make a decision one way or the other. Then, all it will be down to is whether you pass those bloody aptitude tests!

Good luck, whatever you decide.

Sad.

[Whipping Boy's SATCO]

Spoonbill, I am not qualified to talk about civvy control; it is obvious you are equally well informed about military control.

Tornado FL160 - check your e-mail.

Fly Safely...........

[Chilli Monster]

Tornado FL160

As others have said - it's what you want out of life. If you want a military career as an ATCO then so be it - but be under no illusion that your qualifications will count for nothing when you finish. If the idea of Military AND ATCO is of a similar appeal then the suggestion of Short Service Commision followed by joining NATS is not a bad one providing they'll give you a cadetship - but a few people have gone that route. If you want to be an ATCO pure and simple then a NATS cadetship has to be the option. If you were to go for option 2 however bear in mind though that the good old days of studying for your licence under your own steam (A la The Sad ATCO perhaps?) are gone for good - you WILL have to do a course - my Aerodrome cost me £12.5K 5 years ago because I was too old for a NATS cadetship and RGAT had just been introduced (Ex military assistant) and it DOES concentrate the mind. I might be about to spend £33K for the APP and Radar to get out of a contentious bonding issue - but at least I'll have the ratings first instead of risking my own money.

The Sad ATCO

As you can see from the above - age and RGAT changes everything - it aint a cheap car boot course anymore :) The changes in the college situation at the moment aren't helping things either - there is a dire shortage which is here and is going to get worse in the civil world

Spoonbill

Two weeks left - cooking on gas (I LOVE Radar! :) )

CM

[This message has been edited by Chilli Monster (edited 23 June 2001).]

[The Sad ATCO]

Chilli Monster,

You make too many assumptions and then come out with incorect solutions. :-) Car boot course? I'm not that old! I am a proud product of NATS' College of Knowledge (at no major expense to myself). I, too, have lived in Westby Road, Boscombe like most other NATS trainees and it was great!!
Having been an RAF ATCO and now being a NATS ATCO, I felt well infomed enough to pass comment without jumping to conclusions about others. My advice stands.

Love & Kisses

Sad

[Spoonbill]

:) :)
TAKE THAT CHILLI! :) :)
:) :)
Chilli can't come out to play - he's doing his homework!
When are the final runs?

SAD - Sorry mate, but Chilli knows all too well about the subject.
I trust you don't take your pompous attitude to work too often, you may find yourself becoming "SAD no friends" very quickly http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/tongue.gif.
We, along with many others in the trade, have paid for our own training, post RGAT, which to the uninformed, means paying to attend the modular courses at Baibrook Penitentary or CATC, (or Cwmbran as well now). The cost of all 3 courses, (ADC/APC/APR) is around £17K PER COURSE now.
Good luck to those who can get a cadetship, it's a great way to do the training and I'd never knock it.
Service life - I've never been in, but I work closely enough (on a daily basis) with mil' atco's to know exactly what the differences are. As I said, those FEW, (and it is a very small number now), that pay for their own courses, are very good atco's.
Have a nice day. http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/tongue.gif

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It wasn't me.

[Chilli Monster]

The Sad ATCO

I wasn't passing dispersions on your comments - thought I was slightly backing them up actually. Also you'll notice my use of the word PERHAPS as to your route of qualification - not an assumption, just a remark on a possibility. However it is obvious that you work for NATS as you obviously think that is the only way to get qualified - I can assure you there is a world outside of CATC :)

There are those out there that HAVE paid out money to transfer across - one of my instructors at the moment was an RAF ATCO with me when I was in but paid for her own tickets (Pre RGAT, not as expensive) and has worked for the other ATS provider before taking the instructing job. CATC is not a sure bet for anyone - you got in there, but it's not a guarantee for everyone. Time to get off that high saddle methinks ;)

Spoonbill

Final runs this Tue, Wed & Thu. Then Emergencies next week - finish 6th July - YIPPEE!!! :)


[This message has been edited by Chilli Monster (edited 25 June 2001).]

[LXGB]

Good luck CM,
What's the mood like at Jailbrook these days?
They set a date for the meltdown yet?

Best Regards,
LXGB.

[Chilli Monster]

Mood's not bad considering, but it could have been handled better by the powers that be (Head Office - NOT Jailbrook management) - but the place closes end of July. Final APP procedural course has just started which will finish at the same time as the final ICAO course

Sad times http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/frown.gif

CM

[The Sad ATCO]

Spoonbill and Chilli,

I can see why you two are mates. You are both full of it!! What a shame that two people who admit to having no experience of being ATCOs in the RAF seem able to pass comment to someone who asked about such a career. Or does the origin of the thread not worry two such opinionated people?

Having re-read my reply, I failed to detect any pomposity. However, you both seem to be able to display both pomposity and arrogance in your replies.
'High Saddle'? - 'Pot to kettle, Black, Over'.
I am quite aware that there is a world outside of CATC- you seem to fail to realise that some of us have been out here for a reasonable while working in it.

Spoonbill, I was particularly amused by your assertion that 'those few ... that pay for their own courses are very good atco's'. Are you able to state this a result of intensive research by SRG and subsequent statistical analysis or did it just make you feel better to say it because you had to put your hand in your pocket? Does that then mean that the rest of us are not up to much? If you carry on with the 'bull' then it'll be you with the 'no-mates' problems!

INCOMING!!!


Sad

[Fly Through]

Oh my God,handbags at 20 paces, girls!!
I have no experience of being a RAF controller but I have been in the mob. You are definitely an officer first and foremost whatever trade you end up in. Did my apr course at Jailbrook and was the only civvy on the course!! All the others had done deals with Serco but it still cost them heaps in the long run.

Back to the original question....... depends what you're after, if you want the military lifestyle with it's multitude of opportunities ie.travel, sports etc and are willing to put up with rules & regs then go for it.

However if you don't mind hard work, stress & a decent wage (even though you will always be whinging of not getting enough :) )then go civvy.

There my tuppence posted, you may now resume the dummy throwing http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/tongue.gif

FT

[Spoonbill]

:) :) :)
ALL MY TEDDIES ARE OUT THE COT!.
:) :) :)

Sad: Check out life with your more experienced NATS colleagues and units outside thereof, the truth is out there! http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/tongue.gif

Now then, where were we?

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It wasn't me.

[Chilli Monster]

The Sad ATCO

Unlike yourself - who read his own reply and saw nothing wrong, I asked others to read mine (it's often better to get an external view) and they din't see it as an attack on yourself, which you obviously do. I'm sorry you see it as that. As for being full of myself I think you'll find if you ask people that know me that's far from the truth.

I'm not crossing the line of personal insult, which you have done because I'm a far better person than that. I suggest you now take that hint and stop yourself - you're doing yourself no favours, believe me. The thread starter had an honest question - it has been answered in a way that has covered most of the options available. Sniping at people who maybe you think are inferior because they didn't attend the hallowed halls of Shawbury and CATC does not come into the remit of the thread. You got your licence for free - My 3 ratings will have cost me £45K and a marriage. At the end of the day it's still the same licence to the same standard.

A very tired CM

[This message has been edited by Chilli Monster (edited 26 June 2001).]

[Whipping Boy's SATCO]

Gentlemen, let's just try and calm things down. As already stated, Tornado FL160 asked an honest question and we have managed to degenerate to abuse. So, to bring the thread back on line:

I am a military SATCO, I am an Air Traffiker through and through, I have been in the business for 14 years, I still get the opportunity to control (although not as often as I would wish), I have a good career profile, I spend a significant amount of time discussing managment/policy issues, like many RAF controllers I think of myself as a controller first, my capitation rate (ie what I would have to earn as a civilian to have the same quality of life) is £57 000. Finally, and most importantly, I have offered Tornado FL160 to come and view some aspects of military ATC. Would someone on the other side of the fence please oblige by describing their job and, preferrably, offer Tornado FL160 the opportunity to observe other aspects of ATC? Otherwise, an intersted individual will look away from a profession (be it military or civil) that is sorely lacking in personnel.

Off my soapbox and apologies if I unintentionally offended anybody

Fly Safely.................

[Edited because I wasn't actually quite ready to get off my soapbox!]

[This message has been edited by Whipping Boy's SATCO (edited 26 June 2001).]

[Spoonbill]

Wise words Whipping Boy, are you sure you're an atco, you sound too intelligent.? :) :) :)
Anyway Tornado, the same offer applies to come and visit a civi atc unit should you wish to do so.
Regards.
(Oh, and Sad can come if he wants to).

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It wasn't me.

[The Sad ATCO]

Spoonbill,

Thank your for your kind offer but I won't be able to make it (You'll be pleased to know!!). I am too busy polishing my handbag and preparing my teddies. :)

Love as always.

Sad

[Matoman]

Some interesting opinions in this thread about life on both sides of the fence. Having served over 25 years as an ATCO in the RAF, including tours at LATCC (LJAO), CATCS, the ATCEB, SATCO and staff tours in Hillingdon House and central London the sad thing is that there is still a 'fence'. We are all doing the same job; of course we usually control different aircraft in different airspace using different procedures, but the basic's are fundementally the same. I for one wish that there was no 'fence' and that the whole issue of civil licences for military controllers had been resolved years ago by aligning both courses to a common syllabus. If it works elsewhere why couldn't it work in UK? Alas, thanks to the short-sighted approach of certain individuals that is unlikely to ever happen - despite approaches from SRG. I belive that we will only ever really provide the 'joint & intergrated' service, that certain individuals always bang on about, when civil & military controllers operate on a common licence. I have long held the view that, having a recognised civil ATC qualification to dangle in front of potential recruits, would enhance the standard of entrants. You could then tie in people for a minimum length of service to for qualification to ensure an adequate return on the investment. I belive that given the current shortage of civil ATCO's, it's only a matter of time before NATS starts to actively recruit from the RAF, something that a 'gentlemans' agreement has prevented up to now. Add that in to the NATS long term plan, which I heard from the lips of Wille Simple himself, for a bid to undertake the military aread radar task (with what staff?)and things could get very interesting in the years ahead. As for the MASOR at Swanwick, well I always liked Rutland myself. Finally, this bit about being an officer first in the RAF. Well I suppose it was true when I joined, when by and large everyone dressed the same and was treated the same. However, these days the RAF is split - aircrew and everyone else and the canyon is getting wider with each passing year. If you really imagine most young aircrew officers consider themselves officers first and pilots second, then you need to get out more. Much the same actually goes for the young RAF ATCO - from the views most express I very much doubt they intend to stay the distance when the siren call of NATS is heard in the distance.

[monkey boy]

RAF control?

Contradiction of terms.

[Odi]

Harsh words Monkey Boy - mind you, I didn't think it would be long before you stuck your boot in from your unique perspective at the end of the room. Do you think we're trying to tell you something by moving away?

[Shepherd]

I am rather intrigued by the idea of people actually paying for a training course to become an ATCO. Australian ATC, Civil and Military, provide training for free. As far as I know this has not changed recently. I believe the RAAF is so deperate for ATC recruits that a young bloke with a zest for international relocation should approach the Australian High Commission in London and ask some pertinent questions. I completed 20 years ATC with the RAAF and enjoyed every aspect of ATC and Military life. The money is OK but cannot be compared to Civil salaries. I jumped ship from the RAAF and joined Airservices (our Civil provider) in order to get stability for my teenage family. My military qualifications were partly recognised in that the RAAF issues ICAO licenses and Airservices recognised my experience and required only a relatively short conversion course and OJT prior to check. You will hear lots of garbage about the proficiency of Military vs Civil ATCO's. Ignore the jibes and make up your own mind. I have found that talent lies with the individual more than the organisation. I would not change anything about my past. Job satisfaction is more important than money in my opinion. Mind you, I'm not complaining about the increase in $ now that I have made the change. Good luck and accept the invite to view your options.

[Whipping Boy's SATCO]

matoman, I would agree with many of your points. Whilst the myopic attitude of some remains, the gap between civil/military will always be there. What we must remember is that, in many areas, we have muddied the waters. If we are really meant to keep the divide, why are my controllers providing a service to predominantly civil aircraft in Class A airspace to a set of civil led rules? Conversely, why are civil licensed controllers working at airfileds such as Wattisham etc to military rules. Let's look a little further than the end of our noses and get a common set of regulations and a common licensing scheme.



[This message has been edited by Whipping Boy's SATCO (edited 28 June 2001).]

[Wee Jock]

Matoman, NATS started hoovering up military ATCOs as far back as 1990. They ran a campaign to specifically recruit mil or ex-mil ATCOs for a short course (7 months for adc, app proc and app radar ratings) at Dundridge College in Devon. There were 6 courses with 12 places on each, mostly filled, and you will now find these controllers working from LATCC to Edinburgh. I am one of them. I left the RAF to do it, and it was the best decision I ever made. My boss was not best pleased as he lost me and one other. He even hauled me in for a grilling to see how much I'd be getting paid. I rather think he thought about doing it himself. Rumour had it at the time that the RAF was 'kicking down Bill Semple's door'.

[Matoman]

Wee Jock,

Mon Brav - I'm only too well aware that NATS have been hoovering up ex-military controllers for years, a more than goodly few of which were personal friends of mine, - in fact I very nearly stepped across myself some years ago, but personal circumstances just got in the way and before long age was against such a career change. The question you should ask is: if the Dundridge courses were such a success, why did they stop after only 6 had been run? My understanding is that the courses were run purely as an experiment to see if ex- military ATCO's could successfully complete a short course that recognised their previous experience and would address a particular shortfall in civil ATCO's. It was never intended that the courses would run in the long-term - more's the pity in my opinion. Over coffee and choccie bics one Friday morning, in the hallowed hall of Hillingdon House, I grilled a very high ranking civil ATCO, who is now even higher, about this very topic. He intimated that the courses had not been a success because the failure rate, both on the course and during OJT, had been too high. I am not aware of the actual numbers, but I was surprised at some of the individuals that were selected and some that were rejected - given their individual histories as RAF controllers (nothing personal Wee Jock, but even you must have wondered why certain people got the nod). I know a number who went through the Dundridge course (perhaps even your good self) and most that I have subsequently encountered seem to reckon it was very hard work but well worthwhile and, unsurprisingly, they have few regrets.

Other organisations have looked at a conversion course for ex-military controllers -(anyone remember Brenda Palmer's SERCO course fiasco?) - but where could one be run now? The CATC is running flat out and doesn't seem to have any extra capacity, Dundridge is gone (to the best of my knowledge) and Bailbrook is about to close. Cwmbran could probably manage it, but from what I've heard their facilities and staff might not be ideally suited to such a task. Surely if we want to get away from a 'them & us' scenario, then the only place to run a shortened course for ex-military ATCO's would be at the CATC and that seems highly unlikely to happen in the near future.

Over the years many colleagues of mine took the 'car-boot' course, (established incidentally by none other than Lloyd Brown himself who eventually ended up running CATC and is now GM at Brum) but, although cheap, that was never the best way to integrate the two groups. I have nothing but absolute admiration for the likes of the Chilli Monster and others who attempt to step across without ever having even been an ATCO in the RAF - the very best of luck. Many other ex-AATC's have succeeded in becoming civil ATCO's in the past and given a following wind, which given your preferred diet should be easily accomplished, you should crack it. I doubt there is a civil ATC unit of any significant size in this country that doesn't have a fair smattering of highly capable ex-military ATCO's - which makes the condescending attitude of certain straight through civil ATCO's towards their serving military colleagues all the more puzzling. I have worked alongside civil ATCO's at LATCC, have a very high regard for their professionalism and still have a number as personal friends. That said, when it comes down to it as a group they were much the same as the military, some very, very good, the majority pretty good or average and a few decidedly below average - I doubt much has changed with the passage of time.

Tornado FL160 for what it's worth, I would also encourage anyone considering a career as an ATCO to join the RAF first on a Short Service Commission and then bang out and become a civil ATCO. That way any opinions they later choose to express on the differences between the two groups have the added advantage of informed practical experience - something that sadly is all too often lacking in the prejudiced, ill-informed opinions frequently expressed by certain other individuals within this forum.

[Chilli Monster]

matoman

Believe me - burning the midnight oil with a copy of MATS part 1 and a bowl of pickled chillis to nibble on has made for some interesting sim sessions the next day ;)

But seriously - When I paid for my ADC course 5 years ago I was the only Ex RAF AATC that did it. On my Approach Procedural at the beginning of this year there were two of us who were ex Cpls and one ex SAC, all being sponsored by our units. When I started the Radar in April the ADC course that was running at the same time had an ex Cpl on it being sponsored by a regional airport. Both sides of the military ATC tree are able to move across.

I think it fair to think that, although not ATCO's our backgrounds helped us all on the courses. As you say, the SSC followed by a decision of which way to go has to give the likes of TornadoFL160 the best of both worlds - service life followed by a decision point, stay or go on to civil.

I wished I'd had that opportunity, instead of doing it the way I've had to.

CM

[Wee Jock]

Matoman, the pass rate at Doomdridge was about 70%, on a par with the current CATC rate - it wasn't that good then. The attrition rate at units wasn't helped by people jumping ship to non-NATS units very quickly. Of the 11 on my course, 10 graduated, 7 validated (2 at Heathrow very quickly), 2 became ATSAs, 1 jumped ship and 1 got chopped. As for choice of people, we ALL had to do the same psycometric tests (5 hours worth) and interviews as ab initios, previous experience aside, so mayhap NATS' test had something to do with that.
Why didn't they do it again? Who knows, I've worked for NATS long enough to know that it's a waste of my time trying to work out why certain decisions are made. You'll get different answers depending on who you're talking to at the time. I think the attitude towards employing ex-mil staff is changing, slowly, but it was ever thus in NATS. The promise to recruit 50% more students over the next few years may be a bit of a wake up call.
By the way, I'm not a mon brav, I'm a ma brave, and I don't have few regrets, I have absolutely no regrets, especially since I got to meet Spoonbill.
(And hiya, Spoonbill, you still twitching?)

[This message has been edited by Wee Jock (edited 29 June 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Wee Jock (edited 29 June 2001).]

[Spoonbill]

Wee Jock,
I did strut my stuff at Dunderhead at the same time as one of the mil' fast track courses was going through, but this was a very long time ago, (or seems it, I was doing my ADC.
As for twitching? Tracking birds was a hobby, but not the feathered variety.
Perhaps you could give me a clue? :)

Chilli,
That explains the failure of the roman sewerage system in Bath then :)

Matoman
You're right about the current shortage of civillian atco's, but if you check, you'll find that the vast majority of airports are now training there own atco's from within their own staff (or ex NATS cadets who get chopped).
This, combined with output of cadets from CATC will take care of current requirements for NATS and non NATS units alike for the forseeable future, and is the reason why NATS are unlikely to run anymore fast track courses for UK airports.
The only option for mil' atco's is to apply for the 50% course dispensation, dig deep and hope someone will take them on at the end of it all.




------------------
It wasn't me.

[Wee Jock]

Hi Spoonbill, you're not who I thought you were, hello anyway, when were you at Doomdridge, (I might work it out then...)?

[This message has been edited by Wee Jock (edited 29 June 2001).]

[wat tyler]

Your choice of career, ultimately remains your own. You just have to decide what type of life you want. If you want to wear a fairly tightly regimented uniform, and get yelled at regularly for the first two or three years, then I believe that LATCC is for you.

[Whipping Boy's SATCO]

Whereas in the military.......