BA or Virgin? Which is better?

[Spearing Britney]

Dear All,

A friend of mine, you know, the guy with the venereal disease and erectile dysfunction who was asking for advice on getting out of a speeding ticket the other day, anyway he has been a lucky bugger and is swimming in the pools of both Virgin Atlantic and British Airways. :D Now I know there is a fairly long waiting time, particularly in the former but having never dared hope that this might occur he needs some help in comparing the two and making a lifetime career choice. I also hear he isn’t the only one with a leg in both camps, seems that a few guys will have this choice to make… :cool:

Anyway, he’s only late twenties but having been on the A320 for a few years and with a supportive other half he really fancies long haul now, which BA aren’t offering for at least 5 years. He also fancies buggering off to la belle France so that he doesn’t have to keep giving :mad: Gordon :mad: lots of money every month… so Virgin looks really attractive right now, not considering the famed ‘party atmosphere’ and the draw of heavy iron. Seems like an easy choice in the short term. :p

That said, having never flown long haul before at least BA would offer the option to change back to short haul later if he doesn’t enjoy it or has a family and while the money is the same initially isn’t BA’s final salary is about £25K better than Virgins? But then doesn’t Virgin offer a quicker command and the increasing job security provided by continuing expansion? Quote “twice its current size in 10 years, by 10% a year expansion”. I suppose its more exposed to a downturn in the Atlantic from, please no :{, another 9/11 but then its expanding elsewhere around the globe so that should reduce. Having said that BA didn’t boot anyone after 9/11, is 10 times bigger and say they will recruit another hundred and something next April so that’s some guys who would be on the list behind him. The nasty Nigels are well known, though probably few in number, but aren’t there rumours of occasionally awkward to deal with ex-military cliques in Uncle Richard’s mob? :uhoh:

Later on when he may not be so keen to fly all the time BA apparently offers 75% and 50% rosters, does Virgin? Staff travel has to pretty good on both I guess, albeit with more freebies for other halves and mates with Virgin. Though BA’s new pension hasn’t been finally announced yet but it looks like it won’t be as good as Virgins 15% so that’s another thing to consider. Does Virgin do block reserves like BA does, which would be easier to live abroad with?

Now he’s a good mate, albeit not very bright, and it’s a life changing decision for him so what considerations would you suggest I’ve missed or misinterpreted? What about morale and perceived lifestyle in the two outfits? Is it true that BA’s long haul guys regularly do 900 hours PA whereas Virgin boys don’t, aren’t they contracted to 750 hours?

Thanks in advance… :ok:

SB

[expedite_climb]

Britney,

Not quite in the same position, although hopefully will be soon.

All my thoughts and worries exactly. Sure you werent talking about me ?

[NigelOnDraft]

SB...

It's a difficult one... however, a fortunate position to be in - some would love to have either offered! I am lucky enough to have been in his (your!) position - worked for VS, and had to make the decision (or not) to move to BA after a year or 2 - which I did. On balance, I reckon for someone joining now VS has the edge...

Specifics:
Later on when he may not be so keen to fly all the time BA apparently offers 75% and 50% rosters, does Virgin? I think VS does offer part time. BA does, but very hard to get right now... Will come down to legislation, which means they'll be the same.

Though BA’s new pension hasn’t been finally announced Well... it's 12% of ~75% of your salary, which in anybody's eyes (except BA's!) is 9%. VS I believe is 15%. If we can up the rate for new entrants in BA we will, but there are so many battles brewing in BA right now, I cannot forecast a likely outcome.

Is it true that BA’s long haul guys regularly do 900 hours PA whereas Virgin boys don’t, aren’t they contracted to 750 hours? VS were contracted, when I was there, to 750hours (800 Airbus), and I believe the +50 Airbus cop-out was got rid of. BA work to a credited hour system, which can lead to you doing 900 actual hours. However, to achieve this, then you must be doing "efficient" trips which ensure no long stays downroute or on duty. VS do not have that protection... Probably not an issue with their route structure, and/or you are happy spending time off downroute against home.

But then doesn’t Virgin offer a quicker command Usually has done, but all based on dead man's shoes or expansion.

Hope that helps somewhat, but suggest:
Take the first offer that comes - or at least first starting date
Toss a coin
If you take my advice (I wouldn't) go for VS...

[Ya Zi]

A difficult choice, but ponder this.

BA is a real airline, Virgin is a brand name which happens to operate some aircraft.

BA's business is pretty stable. Virign's planned expansion seems to be a lot of hot air from it's owner with little substance to date.

BA kept all it's pilots post 9/11. Virgin sh!tcanned 40% of them at the drop of a hat.

But if your friend does have errectile problems, BA hosties will be a bit more of a challenge compared with the Virgin girls :E

[BigGeordie]

Ultra long haul is great for a few years but as your mate has about 30 years to go until he retires he needs to ask himself if he wants to be doing nothing but 7hr to 15hr sectors for the rest of his career. I didn't so I had no choice but to leave. Virgin had a brief flirtation with A320s a couple of years back but got rid of them all, and I can't see them going back into short haul. At BA you have the potential for a lot more variety in your flying.

[maxy101]

What´s galling is BA could be the best airline in the world , both for pax and staff, if only they sorted out half a dozen Directors and senior flight ops managers. Most of us there live in hope...

[northern boy]

Ya Zi,

Virgin has been operating for 20 years this year and has a current fleet of about 30 long haul airliners with more on the way.

It is a real airline , not a "brand name operating a few aircraft".

They certainly did s***can a large number of crew after 9/11 myself included. They also offered almost everyone their positions back within 6-9 months and are currently the same size in terms of crew numbers as they were pre 9/11. Much recruiting underway presently.

Certainly,BA avoided redundancies and full marks to them, however there are no VS drivers preparing to move over to BA that I am aware of.

My advice would be, under 30- BA certainly worth considering if you want the variety and dont mind/can afford living in the SE.
Over 30 - think carefully especially if you want long haul.
Over 40 - BA not a good idea unless the retiring age increases.Still the command and pension issues to consider.

Virgin terms and conditions are much improved over a few years ago and you can fly RHS until 65 if the multiple divorces are causing financial pain.

[P1 Forever]

Hi all,

With regards to working for either BA/Virgin, is it true that a good percentage of pilots live nowhere near London, ie live in other parts of the UK/Ireland, France, Spain etc..therefore don't have to live in the southeast.

Also, what I don't understand is when people mention that you can switch from BA long to shorthaul if for instance you have a family....however I thought with these 3-5 day tours around Europe that you would be away from home pretty much the same length of time anyway...so what's the difference?

just a thought

P1

[Carnage Matey!]

Lots of BA pilots, both short and long haul, live nowhere near London. However what you gain by being away from the South East you can lose in a long drive to and from work when you're generally likely to be knackered in one or both directions. Early starts and late finishes can be a problem as you'd either be driving at an unpleasant time or the flight schedules won't tie up and you'll waste a night sitting in a cheap B&B somewhere.

You're right about short haul being away from home a lot. BALPA did a bit of research into this last year and found that both short and long haul pilots in BA spend a broadly similar amount of time away from base with a similar number of nights away from home, however short haul actually spent about 30% more time on duty than long haul. It's also worth noting that many long haul flights depart late at night and return early in the morning so even though your tired you can still do something at home on the last day of the trip. With short haul you'll leave early morning and arrive home late at night so the day's completely filled. If you want time at home then long haul is by far the way to go.

[northern boy]

Just a few thoughts on the long haul vs short haul thing.

Its very much down to individual preferences. Some people hate long haul and can't tolerate the time swings, some people love it.

Personally I find long haul easier on my aging body than four or five consecutive early starts changing to lates then back to early etc etc. I like the lifestyle and whilst it is true that you can only play golf/get trashed in the truck so many times, I would rather be bored sitting by the pool in St Lucia, Ipod installed in lugholes and a good book to hand than be bored slogging endlessly backwards and forwards to some rainswept European airport or on airport standby with 7 hours to go.

The ability to live where you like is also a big factor. Commuting is a pain in the proverbial and expensive to boot but for me it is cheaper than a mortgage in the south and I live where I want to rather than where I have to.:cool:

In the end you do what suits you and stay with what you like.
I am far too old for BA now but enjoy Virgin and will stay until retirement, terrorism and environmentalists permitting. If I was 25 and had a choice I would have to think long and hard.

Whatever you choose, hope it works for you.

[wagtail23]

Spearing Britney

You say that it is a long time to wait in the holding pool - can anyone give any idea of how long the wait in the VS pool is?

Waiting, waiting......

Thankx

[Goodness Gracious Me]

To give you an idea, I've been waiting since December. And I'm still waiting!! :{

[flaps to 60]

Spearing B

Let me start by saying you lucky bugger i would kill to be in such a quandry.

BA used to be the airline i would have killed to get into but after hearing BA pilots moan more vociferously than VS and looking into the culture of both airlines then VS is now the apple of my eye.

In these hallowed pages we have also seen recently that the BA T & C's have changed dramitically downwards (especially for new DEP's) as opposed to VS's incremental movements upwards trying to match BAs.

Have also heard that more and more BA chaps are forgoing the "job for life" and moving on to Monarch Britannia etc etc. Not so long ago it was all the other way.

As for the change back to short haul dont forget that VS and BMI were in consultation not so long ago. Have heard NO rumours that its NOT going to happen infact quite the opposite.

Nothern boy is right would you rather be bored in HKG,ORD,SFO,BGI,JFK (cities and countries that if your bored in then you might as well top yourself) or as i and im sure you do 5 earlies followed by 5 lates and hanging around waiting for the phone to ring.

If offered both at the same time ask you heart and head to have a chat and go for what you think is right for you both now and in the future.

Good luck you lucky so and so.:ok:

[LVL CHG]

What is the likelihood that a newhire could get staffed on the 400 vs. shorthaul Airbus? If you are a junior FO on the 400, what are the likely destinations you could bid or be awarded on reserve (primarily NY flights...)?

Will most newhires likely start on the bus?

[Carnage Matey!]

The word from management was that unless you were already rated on the 747 or 777 you'd be going to the Airbus, but that was before they had to reopen recruitment and widen the offer (737 and 75/67 ratings now welcome).

As a junior FO on the 747 you could probably expect to get one decent trip a month to NRT,LAX,SFO,HKG,JNB,SEA,MEX as part of a blind line. The rest of your allocation will be JFK, BOS, MIA, DEL, MAA, ORD, BAH, IAD etc, mostly three day trips, plus you will work every weekend as a junior FO regardless of which fleet you're on. Bidding is really only a notional concept as a junior FO, you'll be on blind lines and be allocated your work regardless of your preferences.

[Human Factor]

If you manage to get long-haul straight away (full ATPL required), expect the 777 rather than the 400 as we're a little short of pilots at the mo. For the Triple, expect shorter East Coast (IAD, BOS, PHL, EWR, JFK, ATL) trips and the middle East (KWI, DXB, RUH, JED). We also do the mid-West (IAH, DFW, DEN), the Caribbean (TPA, MCO, KIN, BGI, ANU with shuttles), Africa (ABV, HRE, LUN occasionally) and some longer range stuff (including PEK, CCU, GRU, GIG) but you're highly unlikely to see any of those on a Blind Line.

Don't expect the 400 without a type rating, there are enough people already in BA who will bid for it.

PS: As a new hire, expect reserve (7 fixed days off, 3 weeks on call) at least once a year on any LHR fleet.

[snooky]

Well I can't speak for Virgin, but I can tell you it's very miserable at BA.
Years of grossly incompetent management of this government department let loose in the real world have led to the shambles it now is.
Pilots are resented by all and their lily-livered managers do little to defend them.
Eventually you are trapped, with only the pension retaining you (at least new joiners wont face that problem).

[Spamman]

Don’t go to BA.

Why?

Well, in the past two weeks I’ve experienced:

· An hour wait for transport between terminals to operate a flight that was already 2hrs late. (we got into a engineers van, - some entire crews got London buses between terminals.)

· Cabin crew not prepared to dispatch on a domestic sector without a 5th crewmember.

· 3 Aircraft stands full of misplaced baggage.

· Cabin crew requiring '38 minutes at table' (to eat at a crew lounge) after a single 1.5hr sector, causing delays to get worse

· Tug drivers disconnecting and going home, despite being already connected to an aircraft with a pushback sequence number and passengers that are already 3 hrs late.

· Cabin crew not getting up to start their service until the TOC, on a 40 minute sector

· Dispatchers that are ‘not permitted any longer’ to print off flight plans form there computers for flight crew.

· Airside bus drivers dropping an outbound crew off at the aircraft, f’ing and blinding at me because I have asked for them to take our inbound crew back to the car park. And then driving off without us

· Finding crew buses ‘hiding’ in Terminal 1, when there are crews that have been waiting for 2 hrs for transport to or from their next trip on other stands, because the bus dispatcher radio controller is ‘not allowed to call them’

· Company radio frequencies replying to 25% of radio call for the whole of the LHR fleet

· Cabin crew that are not asked & ‘not permitted’ by the union to go into discretion (or they’ll be fined - allegedly…)

· Multiple & extensively delayed departures not having any customer service staff in attendance at the gates

· Crew control not advising dispatchers or flight crew that their flight which is waiting to board has no cabin crew to cover the flight

· The presumption that cabin crew will never go into discretion.

· Flights being retimed (read: delayed) for cabin crew needing more rest in the hotel than the flight crew

· The presumption that flight crew will ALWAYS go into discretion without referring to them

· Several times a week, being asked by cabin crew if we can ensure that our passengers who pay our mortgages, will be delayed further than they are already so they get £50,


I’ve worked in some grot holes, in & out of aviation in the past, but the sheer negativity and CANT do attitude at BA is really beyond belief.

If you think the continuity of your pay check is safe, stay where you are.
I wish I had...

[Carnage Matey!]

Ironically the man who is responsible for all but one of spammans examples has recently been awarded an OBE for services to the airline industry. He was probably nominated by our competitiors!

[ABird747]

Snooky, I can understand why you feel so undervalued and disliked by alot of the staff in BA. It seems that anyone who is on a higher payscale is fair game.

The short-sightedness (sp?) and unwillingness of certain employees to recognise the need to pay the "going rate" coupled with our unions (esp. BASSA) with their tabloid, lowest-common-denominator newsletters and mail shots does nothing to remedy the situation. The unions whip up a fire storm every time management bonuses are announced. A jealous eye is turned toward the flightdeck door whenever pay is discussed on board by some.

Honestly I don't know what will make us snap out of our complacent attitude that we are the best, will always be and can treat both our customers and colleagues any way we wish to.

Here's hoping the strike is averted later this month!

:rolleyes:

[Yeovil]

I agree wholeheartedly with Spam man above.

Carnage matey - "hit the nail on the head" too. How can Mike Street sleep at night when the airline provides such a dreadful level of service?

I predict that BA won't exist in its present form in five years.
Any F/O joining now needs to have his eyes wide open. he will never get a command here - since it's probable that Easyjet will dominate the LGW market and BA will slowly shrink back to be a LH operation.

[JONSV]

Only 4 years done in BA, 30 (or 35) left to go.

There is no way in hell that I will be able to work those thirty years at the current rate. I will HAVE to go part time, otherwise it WILL kill me. The reasons have been given by many others.

I'm saying this in my mid-twenties, and I am absolutely serious.

Something not yet mentioned anywhere is the number of pilots taking Open University courses. Maybe not going to other airlines, but changing career completely.

WANABEES LISTEN CAREFULLY: go to a good university and get a good degree in something useful.

I've always wanted to be a pilot, never anything else. To have realised my life time ambition has made myself, my friends and family so proud.

To feel how I do about my job, my company and my future now truly breaks my heart. As dramatic as it sounds, I can only compare the feeling with one of betrayal.

[P1 Forever]

Hi JONSV,

Surely it can't be that bad. Listen lets swap jobs for a month (I wish) and we will see who's better off. I would love to be in your shoes right now and so would many others. I suppose that by your age, with respect, that you haven't had any of the low paid, dirty, long houred , degrading jobs that I and many others out there have had. You have a great future, long haul command, well above average salary, ok you work hard and it's long hours waking up at 4:00am but if you don't want it give me the job.

Oh, and this talk that I will have to work every weekend, don't get me wrong I love my weekends, but who cares if I have to work them, I will do it gladly. Another thing is that if I join on the 777 I will have to do the east coast US such as New York, Atlanta, Orlando......poor me.....come on!!

I don't have rose tinted glasses either - I am just living in the real world.

Flying for a living is not a job - it's a way of life

Cheers!!

[snooky]

P1, it's your choice. You can either listen to what you're being told or ignore it, but if you choose to ignore it you'll find yourself stuck like many of us now are.
I can promise you that it will take a relatively short time for the novelty to wear off.
Put the same amount of effort into any other career and I think you''ll end up better off.
Being very badly managed in an industry where it's almost impossible to change employer once some seniority is accrued and facing endless exhaustion being worked to legal limits is no life.
Endless East coast may sound good to an outsider, but in reality it is purgatory.
What other job has at least 5 potentially career ending checks a year.
Think very hard before entering the trap!
You may be right that flying is a way of life, but it's increasingly difficult to have any other life alongside it.

[scroggs]

P1, the important thing to bear in mind is that, at some point in the future even if not now, you will want the occasional weekend off, and you will want some guaranteed time off with your wife and kids, and you will want some indication (beyond salary) that you are a valued member of the organisation you belong to, and that your welfare is of some importance to them. It seems that, at the moment, BA is not fulfilling the expectations of many of its pilots. I don't know if that's likely to be a permanent state of affairs - in fact, I doubt it - but please respect the genuinely-held feelings of those who actually do the job you're so desperate to get into.

At the moment, the Virgin pilot group seems to be faring somewhat better than their colleagues at BA - but it wasn't always like that, and there's no reason to suppose it always will be!

[Human Factor]

Another thing is that if I join on the 777 I will have to do the east coast US such as New York, Atlanta, Orlando......poor me.....come on!!

You do that month in month out with very few days off, none of them at weekends, in between, your body clock will shift about 3 hours westwards and you will find yourself completely drained on your (minimum) days off. Try it. I give you six months before you feel the same way. Having said that, if enough of you join on the 777, none of us will have to work quite as hard with any luck.

[maxy101]

Right On!! If we can get more of these suckers to join, it'll push the rest of us up the list and into a semi decent lifestyle!

[expedite_climb]

You boys have obviously never / have forgotten what is like to work for a charter outfit in the summer...... long european 2 sector night flights are more tiring than the atlantic IMHO, followed by minimum days off into stupidly early flights.

[maxy101]

Problem is EC...They are doing it 12 months a year, not 6 months during the Summer and then recovering over the Winter season. There is a strong feeling amongst certain people in the know ,that something "nasty" is going to happen, as the holes in the cheese are starting to align. Ironically, the troops seem to know, but few people with the power to change things are listening.

[JONSV]

P1,

I hear what you're saying, but I don't really think you understand what I mean.

Your post is full of wistful wishes of a glamourous lifestyle and foreign travel. My point is; thats exactly what I thought it would be, and I was nowhere near the reality.

You said

Flying for a living is not a job - it's a way of life

That's wrong. It's a JOB that TAKES OVER your life.

Some of your points are exactly right, it's a good job compared to some, and well paid. But it's a job nonetheless. It's a tiring one, a thankless one, an unhealthy one, a VERY insecure one, a very stressful one and sometimes a destructive one.

I have done some crappy jobs, albeit as a student, and I have many friends who do crap jobs for £11k a year. I count myself lucky in that sense, but I do not consider myself to be lucky just because I'm a pilot.

Six years ago I was that dreamer who sat and read things like I've just written, green with envy, sick with the craving for the high life, and in complete denial that what I saw could possibly be the truth. I think a lot of people know where I'm coming from.

expedite_climb

I have done long european night flights, ones where you sit on the ground for 2 hrs before going back. I personally find going from lates with one day off then 5 pre-7am checkins in a row which total 12 sectors (4 sectors in $hite wx checking in at 0500 local, madness) and 40 duty hours considerably more tiring.

And thats all year round.

[P1 Forever]

Hi JONSV,

I am sorry if I went a little too far in my last post. As a student pilot I have no inside knowledge however, as you are a chap around my age, I just thought it was a real shame that you felt this way about your career and company. I just hope I don't feel the same way in 10 years from now.

Therefore, what changes would you guys make in order for it to become a pleasure again - less hours, home more often perhaps?

I do hope your T&C's improve in the near future.

Best of luck.

P1

[Pelican]

A lot had been said about the fact that you won't see a weekend off when joining BA. How is that situation at Virgin for newcomers?

Can they expect to be working most weekends as well, or is all of that alleviated a bit by the bidding system they have? Is one of the fleets worse for weekends than the other, or is it a pretty uniform thing?

[scroggs]

There is no difference between the fleets. As we do not use a bidline system, it is impossible for anyone, no matter how senior, to bid for every weekend off. There are strict limits as to how many trips or days off you can bid for, and the maxima reduce if you have leave in that month. We also use a rotating bid group system, with a balance of seniority in each of three bid groups. That way, even the most junior pilot has a good chance of getting some preferred days off or trips one month in three.

With the nature of the trips flown, and the minimum time between flights, it is possible to get into an all-weekends or all-weekdays roster, as the trip cycle is approximately 6 or 7 days. Therefore tactical bidding can be used to break the cycle and get some weekends off.

The system works pretty well (though we've been having some trouble getting A340 rosters out on time recently - hopefully now sorted), and you don't hear too many complaints on the line.

[Pelican]

Thanks a lot Scroggs (as always a very informative response). Cheers.

[The Big Easy]

Scroggs,

The rumour is that virgin are still significantly under-crewed and there is a problem brewing when new routes start. How many trips/hours are you flying per month? Are virgin still recruiting for both fleets or just the Airbus?

TBE.

[easyprison]

Sick;

"GSS's 744 F/Os are screaming to escape their abuse and exit to Virgin"

Perhaps on a new thread you could expand on that statement?

Interested to hear..............

[maxy101]

Or maybe the rumour that certain BA types seconded to GSS will do their 500 hrs P1 before sliding over to CAL, Emirates, etc

[wreckless]

Has the Virgin pay offer lived up to expectations, or has it fallen short of the figures given when Virgin pilots voted for it?

[maxy101]

Sick...I wouldn't be surprised if they took DEP's straight on the -400. Rumour has it that BA are having problems getting the quality it wants (on the cheap, of course) I can see that they would have to offer some incentive to join. IMHO, you don't really want to start flying in BA in shorthaul at the age of 38 or so. The earlies will kill you.

[scroggs]

Virgin has recruited for the 744 this year, but there aren't likely to be many courses required over the next couple of years unless the company forces people to move from the 744 to the 340 - which is bound to happen as commands come up. So, there will be some need for new 744 drivers but not a great deal. That said, the supply of rated Airbus pilots is not endless and, as was the case when I joined, it's more than likely that the company will retrain people they like.

As for the pay deal, wreckless, it has fully lived up to its promises. And I'm still contracted to only 750 hours a year.

[captwannabe]

Thought I'd refresh this thread to see what are your current opinions?

[scroggs]

At Virgin not much has changed - though we have probably 170 more pilots than we did when this thread started, and we are continuing to recruit. 7 A346s are due to arrive this year (though we will lose 4 A343s), and another bunch (with no losses) next year. The A380 is still on the horizon (though delivery now looks likely to slip to 2009 thanks to problems at Airbus), and there are the beginnings of the process of replacing (or augmenting or extending the life of) the B744 fleet. New routes are steadily being introduced (Dubai and Jamaica plus extra New York (July) and Hong Kong (November) schedules this year), and there are some interesting new destinations proposed for the future. The next round of pay talks are just beginning, with the focus firmly on lifestyle issues. Incrementally, things are improving for us in almost every direction and the pilot workforce is generally persuaded that things are going in the right direction. There are a few issues, as there are anywhere, but no deal-breakers.

There are several threads on this board that suggest from within BA that things are not so great - and many of the complaints brought in this thread 2 years ago have not been satisfactorily addressed. The new pilot contract and pension arrangements have not gone down well, and, for a new-joiner, do not compare particularly favourably with Virgin's. BA is still a great company, and my many friends there say that things are not as bad as they are painted here by some, but there are none who, if they were looking for a job right now (and accepting that we are talking only about longhaul) would choose BA over Virgin.

Scroggs

[sidestick320]

with regard to employment issues, I was just wondering what the VS incremental pay is (2% + inflation?)? Are there pay negotiations coming up soon, and how much (average) do you get in downroute allowances??

Cheers.

[scroggs]

For specific information on Virgin's recruiting, T&Cs etc., look here (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=143500). As for the next round of pay talks, as I said in my 30 April post: The next round of pay talks are just beginning, with the focus firmly on lifestyle issues.

[sidestick320]

The next round of pay negotiations are focused on lifestyle. Could anyone elaborate on how lifestyle could be improved?

At the moment pilots are flying 750 hours with excellent staff travel benefits on top (almost the best in the industry)?!!!

I have searched scroggs' previous posts on other threads and cannot find definitive details about annual increments. I have seen 2% + rpi (2-2.5%) as a ballpark figure.

Although I do not know the exact BA figures I believe they gain substantially higher increments than those quoted for VS!

With regard to trip allowances how much can one expect to take home per month? I understand that it depends on routes etc but an average figure would help!! (I have seen Scroggs' previous posts on this matter (£6000/yr, but have heard differing opinions ie up to £900/month=£10800/YEAR)

Cheers
SS320:confused: :confused: :\

[tired]

Annual increment is 2.5% in your anniversary month. Any increases due to a pay deal are on top of that.

Re allowances downroute, on the 'Bus I probably bring home (ie after looking after myself downroute) about £300 - £350/month. I haven't ever been sad enough to keep a record, so that might be an underestimate. Also, nb that I'm not a huge party animal, some of my more festive colleagues (!!) probably bring rather less than that home.

[scroggs]

Sidestick lifestyle issues include things like rostering, the ability to plan days off in the future, leave allocation, overtime working agreements, and a host of other factors that individually are minor, but together can have a large effect on lifestyle. Improvements can always be made, and the goalposts are constantly moving even in the best of companies. And pay talks are never just about pay...!

You are confusing length-of-service increments with annual RPI uplifts. There is no element of RPI associated with LOS increments. The LOS incrementation is based on whatever your salary is on the anniversary of your entry to the company. RPI and other negotiated salary increases happen on an agreed date for all employees in a given group. The combination of increment and negotiated increase will be considerably more than the figures you mention. The details of the last BALPA-negotiated Virgin pay deal have been discussed and published here before; suffice to say the increase over the last three years has been very substantial. We don't earn as much as BA pilots do, particularly in the later years, but we don't work as hard either!

Allowances are based on an agreed daily subsistence rate for each hotel. This figure is agreed also with the Inland Revenue as adequate to provide a reasonable standard of living consistent with our expectations and the facilities on offer (themselves subject to union/company negotiation), and not as an income supplement, and is thus tax free as of earlier this year. The total allownces received in a year is highly dependent on where you go and how often you go there! One person could get £4000, another £10,000. Most will get something in between.

[Waka Rider]

As a DEP you start on 44000 which goes up by about 2000 each year allowances looking at about 10000-13000 depends how much you get drafted etc. I believe our bidline system even though I am bottom 777 fleet is awesome and most importantly fair and transparent. How ever do think you may do a trip or two more a month with BA if on 777.

[itsonlyme]

Hi all,

I would be very grateful for a bit of clarification from any BA peeps reading this. I realise that the nature of this forum is for gripes rather than glowing testimonials, however, as someone who may be in a position to join BA in the near future would anyone be able to enlighten me why there are so many bad vibes about the company at the moment? If you had a choice from other airlines who were offering you positions (Virgin/Monarch) would you prefer them to BA?

I shortly will be in position to decide which airline to work for (if any have me!) after my time flying in the military. I had always percieved BA to be one of the favourites, however, people seem to be very unhappy there at the moment. Of course there is the possibility that I may end up stacking shelves at Tesco, however, assuming i had a choice to make any advice would be appreciated. Would you guys swap BA for say Virgin? Monarch? What are the specific problems at the monment? And also, anyone who is really happy with there lot?

To anyone who replies, thanks for your help, and if anyone feels like PMing me, feel free.

Thanks again for any help/advice

[Cloud Chaser]

Another question for VS guys. I would love to join you some day and although I'm not in a position to apply yet would appreciate some advice. I currently fly heavy turboprops for a regional carrier and am thinking about making a move onto jets.
My question is do VS favour crew from any particular airlines or rated on any particular aircraft (excluding the obvious A340/B747) or is it simply an Airbus or Boeing rating. I know they have gone as small as the BAe146 in the past, but that might just be a four engine issue. Does size matter;)
It may seem trivial at this time but these decisions can affect your future.

[scroggs]

Size matters in that Virgin prefers you to have 'commercial jet' time:
We are currently recruiting and ask that prospective candidates have a minimum of 2500 hours total time - if coming from a commercial background this should also include at least 1500 hours commercial jet experience.

As you say, A340 or B744 time is ideal, but many Virgin recruits don't have such types on their licence. Many of our guys are from the B737/A320, and there are a few from the military and other less common backgrounds. I can't think of anyone who's recently joined with 'only' BAe146/RJ experience, but I won't hold myself hostage to fortune by saying categorically that it hasn't happened!

Basically, the core VS applicant has around 4000 or more hours, with 2500 or more on jets of B737 size or larger. There are exceptions, but they needed an extra dose of luck!

Scroggs

[Sempre Volando]

Is it likely that having the minimum requirements as specified on the VS website, will get you an interview with VS? Or do you need in the region of 4000hrs TT to get an interview?

[scroggs]

1. No

2. Yes

[sundanser]

Hi Scroggs!

I was wondering if one has 4000h total time on 737/320, has applied online and since then hasn´t heard anything from VS (applied in dec 05) if one should just go ahead and apply again online? Possibly the first one was lost in the wide world of bits and bites...

Is VS right now actually looking for pilots?

Thanks a lot for your help!
Cheers
sundanser

[scroggs]

I'd say yes and yes. Last I heard, our requirement for new pilots is roughly similar to last year (about 140). I'm not sure how intelligent the software for the online application is; it may recognise you and refuse you a second go, in which case I'd write a letter or e-mail Janine to confirm whether or not she has your details.

Just to put things in perspective, though, for those 140 pilots the company probably interviewed something over 500 well-qualified people, and had applications from many, many more. There are many perfectly good people who won't get an interview, as luck will always play a part.

[Monarch Man]

Scroggs..regarding T & C's Im doing a quick comparison (guess where I work..:) )
A couple of quick questions.
Are you aware of any plans to introduce a lower scale for new joiners?
Can you confirm that VS guys contracts are based on 750hrs per year?..and if so is overtime paid if you go up to 900?
Lastly, is it true that the allowances are based on the local cost of living? i.e. Cuba accrues less allowances than HK.

Thanks in advance:ok:

[Human Factor]

BA.

No significant changes except we're now even shorter of pilots. Much Force Drafting going on at the moment. For those who don't speak BA, that's being forced to go in on a day off, with a disciplinary if you refuse.

777 now doing more long-range, three-crew trips (mainly to India) and fewer to the Eastern seaboard. 747 pretty much the same as it was. 767 picking up more Eastern seaboard.

Oh yes, and they're still trying to steal our pensions - but that's for another thread.

[exvicar]

If you are a new joiner to BA they have already stolen your pension!

[tired]

Monarch Man - I think Scroggs might actually be working for a change, :) so I'll give him a hand and answer your questions.

1) No, absolutely no such plans whatsoever.

2) Yes. We're a 750 hour airline, anything over 760 hours is voluntary and would attract overtime pay - unless you get there by swopping trips.

3) Not quite. Allowances are based on the cost of living in the hotel - ie it's assumed that you eat all your meals in the hotel, and the allowance is structured accordingly. So the allowances in an expensive hotel in a cesspool destination might be more than those in an average hotel in a nice destination. (Hope that makes sense!)

Hope that helps.
t

[Mini mums]

itsonlyme

You don't seem to have had much joy so far.

Please PM me if you are interested in BA.

Mini mums:ugh:

[captwannabe]

Will pilots for Virgin Galactic be promoted from within the Virgin ranks?

P.S. Scroggs, are you one of the three so far that have been appointed?

:ok:

[mr ripley]

Having joined BA last year:

Roster stability is good.

Bidline, although complicated allows me to bid quite successfully for a months work. I have been able to get to to most of the places I want to fly to. Have most of the days off that I want. Get some weekends off. Get a long run of non leave days off. Although not all at the same time.

The bidding system gives you the flexibility to manage commuting from almost anywhere.

777 is a top aircraft.

Destinations are good, all 35 ish of them, I like India, the Caribbean and China. But there are also some good trips to be had to the US, Africa and the Middle East. And we are getting Calgary and Singapore/Sydney.

There is a path to shorthall and other fleets.

Staff travel is good, when it works.

On the downside:
Time to captaincy is long on longhaul.

The pension is inadequate.

You are contracturally obliged to accept un rostered work, if 'they' can find you. Apparantly happens more than it rarely did previously. Never has happened to me or the majority of people I know.

Overall, a better deal than I was on a year ago and the bidding system is a major part of this.

[scroggs]

Scroggs..regarding T & C's Im doing a quick comparison (guess where I work..:) )
A couple of quick questions.
Are you aware of any plans to introduce a lower scale for new joiners?
Can you confirm that VS guys contracts are based on 750hrs per year?..and if so is overtime paid if you go up to 900?
Lastly, is it true that the allowances are based on the local cost of living? i.e. Cuba accrues less allowances than HK.

Thanks in advance:ok:

Yes, I am working - 3rd East Coast trip this month!

There is not and will not be a 'B' scale. There has been no suggestion of any such thing, and there is no way we would allow it. That is not an empty claim.

The contract is 750 hours per year. There are options for fewer (370 or 640) hours for limited periods. There is also an extra working agreement for those who wish to take it on; they do so by volunteering at the start of the rostering year. There is no way that extra work can be imposed on any line pilot.

Allowances are based on the costs in the accommodating hotel. As an example, we use four different hotels in New York (certain hotels for certain flight numbers). The daily allowances in these hotels vary by up to $40 (though the trip allowances vary by a greater amount, dependent on arrival and departure times and the number of meal peiods covered). The average daily allowance is about £90 - £100.

More information on Virgin's Ts & Cs can be found in this (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=143500&highlight=Virgin) thread.

[fokkerking!]

I'm currently flying with KLM on the 777 as a second officer, 1,5 year of seniority, does anybody know if changing to BA when I reach the 500 hours on type and ATPL is a good carreermove? This is just a thing I was thinking about, no real plans at the moment.
I recognize a lot of the bad comments on BA regarding the attitude management has towards its pilots, and the overall service, we have that problem in KLM too, I think that from the european majors only Air France is still up tot standards in this aspect!

[freakin89]

Back in the early posts of this thread, the topic came up of weekends and time off etc etc.
I know it probably depends on long haul/short haul but which of the two (BA or VS) is (generally) better in terms of time off?
Like which one is more likely to give you a few days at the other end of the flight to sightsee or relax or whatnot?

I rather like the idea that being a Pilot would allow travel (!)

Sarah

[scroggs]

Weekends off in any 24/7 airline will be at the mercy of seniority. Total time off will tend to be a bit better in the 'legacy' carriers than the locos because of mature company/union working agreements. Time at home will tend to be more useful and longer on longhaul than shorthaul.

Shorthaul in any airline will rarely give you a nightstop of greater than mimimum length, and thus sightseeing opportunities will be severely limited. In longhaul it will depend on the schedule. many holiday-based routes aren't daily, and thus you may get two, three or more days at your destination. Depending on union agreements and flight time limitations, ultra-longhaul flights will normally have at least two local nights on the ground, so longhaul is the place to be if you want to see the world.

BA covers many more longhaul destinations than Virgin, who have only 25 or so destinations. However, individual fleets will not serve all destinations - I would guess that the BA 777 fleet has the widest coverage. Virgin has most of the best places to go, and few of the real fleapits of the world (depanding on your prefereneces), so the nice place/flight ratio is pretty good!

There are disadvantages, however, and they've been covered many times before. In short: fatigue, lack of poling time, extended stays away from home, and the impact of foreign food on a tender British digestive system are all reasons why longhaul doesn't suit everyone.

[mr ripley]

I can't answer for VS, but when I saw a crew in Mumbai/Bombay the other day, they were on a 3 day trip and we were on a 4 day trip (3 for cabin crew).

It really depends on frequency of service. In BA sometimes we operate daily, several times daily, only a few times a week, or change aircraft type on different days. And this also changes between seasons.

Generally on a daily service you will have about 24 hours at destination before taking the next one back home.

On the 777 you get complete free days off to 'sight see' etc at the following destinations, but not on all flights:
Barbados, Boston, Cairo, Bahrain (but fly to Doha), Beijing, Shanghai, Harare, Atlanta, Newark, Washington, New York, Orlando, Tampa, Toronto, Montreal, Antigua (but some days have to fly to St Lucia/Grenada/Tobago), Kingston, Abu Dhabi (but fly to Muscat), Bangalore, Mumbai, Calcutta, Dhaka, Chennai/Madras.

[P-T-Gamekeeper]

I started with BA on the 777 at the start of the year. So far, I have not been drafted, and have had pretty good success at bidding for work, especially days off.

As far as I know, BA is the only UK L/H operator to allocate work by bidline, a system that allows you to bid work from a list of complete lines of work each month. This means you can bid for days off or destinations, depending on your preference. Lines are allocated in seniority order, and if you dont get one, you are then in the same boat as any other airline, with a preferencing system, where your work is allocated, taking preferences int account if possible.

For me, Bidline alone makes BA stand out as my top choice.

You do hear a lot of whinging on here about BA. In my view, this is due to:
1. BA has more pilots than anyone else, by a mile.
2. BA used to be SO good, that the terms have slipped a little, but it is still well up there.


I left the RAF this year as a Training Captain with the transport fleet, and was lucky to have a good choice of UK airlines. The positive reasons I chose BA are:
1. Direct Entry Longhaul on 777
2. Good pay
3. Solid BALPA membership
4. Stability (No layoffs post 9/11)
5. BIDLINE

[lekkerste]

fokkerking, are you serious? You really don’t know how lucky you are! Stay put and say thank-you to God everyday. Co-Co KLM must be one of the best jobs in aviation.
lekkerste, 10 years BA -400 and ex-KLM 737.

[coogansrun]

currently a Captain with the worlds favourite Orange Airline. Considering whether Ba is still worth the jump to become a longhaul B777 F/O .
Any advice or experiences?

[wiggy]

IMHO it depends on how old you are and how much you hanker after Command responsibility ( notice I didn't use the word "status").
Given the very recent change to retirement age you will sit as an F/O on any Fleet for years and years and......

[coogansrun]

Thanks Wiggy. Command is all very well - good take home about £4400 per month but very hard to imagine working this hard until I retire. Im currently late 30s so its a now or never with BA.
Any more BA longhaul lifestyle issue opinions would be appreciated.

[wiggy]

I'm not on the 777, I'm on the 744 so my advice comes with a health warning.

Life at BA is no bed of roses, be under no doubts that you will certainly be working hard on the 744/747. I know that on Longhaul you do not do the x sector days you do at EZE but BA have got rostering down to such a fine art, despite Bidline, that you will probably find your monthly/annual hours at EZE and BA will be much the same, and will often be doing 6 trips a month, some possibly "back to back". Couple that with the time zone changes and night flights and you will be fatigued for a lot of the time, albeit in a different way to that in Shorthaul.

The other issue you might want to consider is time at home, particularly if you have kids. Long slips downroute can be great but remember you're not getting home every/most nights, for some an plus :} for others a minus :( .

(edited to make more sense.....)

[mr ripley]

Never done 6 trips a month.

Only been back to back on reserve.

Most 777 trips are about +/-5 hr time change if not less (Middle East).

Not so many long slips on the 777.

I guess life is different on the 744.

Oh and not many early starts either.

Last 2 months of full flying (and only 2 months of full flying this year) I achieved 14 clear days at home and 18 nights at home each month.

I like it.

Pension is still rubbish though.

[wiggy]

Mostly agree Mr R, but the 6 trip months certainly do happen...spoke to a 777 victim earlier today in Compass Centre ( why was I lurking there? - I'm in the middle of a back to back :ugh:). Then again both he and I were trip line holders trying to make the dreaded CAP to avoid pay being docked.
I used to like it.................
Rgds

[overstress]

I'm in the middle of a back to back

Wiggy I hope you don't mind me making it clear to non-BA speakers that you bid for it, as you would not normally be rostered that on the -400.

I've bid for a back-to-back as well in August (same fleet) but it's only the second time in 12 months.

[Human Factor]

On the 777, five trips a month is about the norm. Six is certainly a realistic possiblity. Rest assured (sic), you will be knackered.

Most of the 777s do not have bunks fitted for long-range work. Sixteen (the ERs) do, although it's a bit of a lash up at the back of First class. It is possible to get a reasonable kip though. Six of these jets will be fitted with the proper overhead rest area at some point. (I'll believe it when I see it. :rolleyes: )

To further Mr Ripley's comments (horses for courses though, I suppose):

Never done 6 trips a month.

Fair comment. As already mentioned, five is about the norm although six is a possibility.

Only been back to back on reserve.

Lucky. As a junior pilot, you'll probably be a Blind Line Holder (rostered) so you cannot be forced to "back-to-back". As a Trip Line Holder, you may need to bid for it to make CAP.

Most 777 trips are about +/-5 hr time change if not less (Middle East).

This is changing markedly. Keep in mind how much fuel costs and how little a 777 burns compared to a -400. The 777 will be operating the SIN/SYD service by the end of the year and is planned to operate the BKK/SYD and the SIN service in due course. Don't rule out a return to South America either.

Not so many long slips on the 777.

Ditto.

I guess life is different on the 744.

At the moment. The more long-range trips on the 777, the fewer long-range trips on the -400.

Oh and not many early starts either.

Also changing.

Last 2 months of full flying (and only 2 months of full flying this year) I achieved 14 clear days at home and 18 nights at home each month.

About normal.

I like it.

Good.

Pension is still rubbish though.

Couldn't agree more.

[Poontang Luva]

Well i just had an interview with BA.

For those of you who were hoping for an FO slot on the 777 forget about it in the forseeable future (as their reps told us at the lunchtime break).

Only hiring for A320 fleet and 75/76 fleet.....

[Stuck_in_an_ATR]

Only hiring for A320 fleet and 75/76 fleet.....

Fair enough for me :-) I didn't make it last year and my 12month re-apply ban is over tomorrow :} Does anybody know if there are as many applicants as last year?

[nite flyer]

I was told that I can hold out for a 777 course in Oct, and thats what I've elected to do. Could it depend on your previous experience?

[Artificial Horizon]

I would not recommend that anyone 'holds' out for a course at a later day for two reasons. Firstly requirements change especially in October this year as the new age legislation is coming into effect and I doubt much training will be going on over this period until numbers of pilots staying on after 55 is known. Secondly in British Airways seniority is key to everything that effects your working life. Between now and October you could find yourself 50 - 60 places lower down the list than you otherwise could of been. In the past when things were very stagnent this could easily translate into an extra 2-3 years for command, fleet change etc.. My advice for BA is get in as soon as possible on whichever fleet you will not lose anything by doing this, when I go to longhaul in 18 months time I will join above all of those who have joined direct into longhaul for the past 18 months because seniority is key. Only my thoughts, hope it all works out.

[overstress]

seniority is key

Absolutely sound advice. PPRuNe was only in its infancy when I was starting in the airlines and i wish I'd had someone telling me all this 20yrs ago.

If you want a career in a major airline, take the first job they offer you. Then try to blag yourself onto an earlier course. Even only one place higher is worth it!

[Poontang Luva]

Nite Flyer,

No i dont believe what they told us depended on experience, as i have enough experience for the 777 too. Durng the interview lunch chat they joked about how 'mad' people were waiting for the 777. I know how you feel as the 777 is what i wanted. But i dont believe its an option anymore.

As the others have said dont hold out. Seniority is key. If they take you on 777 in Oct lets say and your on the bottom and they dont hire anyone externally for years, for the 777, you will remain at the bottom of seniority on the 777 fleet. Even though you've been flying it for longer, you will be junior to them as they have more company time. Just take what they give you!

[Human Factor]

It's not that we don't need 777 pilots, we do. It's just there's no spare sim capacity. ;)

[CanAV8R]

In joining BA the only people that you care about are the pilots on the seniority list BELOW YOU. Enough on that one.

Anyone holding out for the 777 I can see your point but a piece of advice. If you get offered the 757/767 jump on it like a fat kid on a big mac because its a great fleet to be on. Mixed fleet flying, great equipment and a wide range of destinations. Bidline+757/767 fleet=happy pilots from what I have seen.

Just my take but the key here is get in ASAP.

:ok: :ok: :ok:

[Marty-Party]

In joining BA the only people that you care about are the pilots on the seniority list BELOW YOU. Enough on that one.

I beg to differ, the only people you should care about are those on the seniority list above you! After all, they probably have the job you want and until they leave, retire or pass away it will still be their job.
Get in early..........by a fluke of the system a friend of mine joined 6 weeks before me and has had a 757/767 command for 2 years now. However, I probably won't get near it for several years :{
Plus, for those who think that being the best pilot (or brown nose) ever will get you an early command - it won't. Only one or two have ever broken the system and that's by becoming a manager. :eek:

[NigelOnDraft]

I was told that I can hold out for a 777 course in Oct, and thats what I've elected to do. Could it depend on your previous experience?I can only echo the above posters. Anyone who wants to join BA, but delays by 1 day for the fleet they want, has misunderstood the whole BA concept :yuk:
Your seniority number determines for your whole career your Seat, Fleet, Monthly Roster re Days Off / Destinations, Leave, liability to Forced Draft, (effectively) Pay, Staff Travel Rights, Standby Periods...
Given that in 2 months time the "turnover rate" is likely to reduce by ~90%, your seniority number i.e. Date of Joining will go from being of 100% importance to 150% :{ My P2 in the sim today was congratulated for a very good, but cautious "P1 Incapacitation" approach - he did his best to ensure everybody below my ~1650 Seniority # "moved up 1" :ooh:
NoD

[Marty-Party]

Completely agree with the previous sentiments. In my case, I did the 'done' thing and continued to work for my previous employer in order to complete my full notice term.

Actually my previous would have let me go early, but I thought I should complete my contract. BA dropped me off my first course and I started about 6 weeks later than originally planned......the result about 40 places further down the seniority list for life!

I actually ended up going to long haul straight away instead of the short haul offered on the earlier course date. Fantastic for my life style now etc but looking into the future, my career choices will always be behind those who started on the original date.

Also, for those who wish to commute, when the push comes to a shove, equal priority standby pax are given seats based on their date of joining.

Basically, we should have all joined at 18 years old!

[coded_messages]

To all you BA guys how long did you have to wait in the Hold Pool?

I have been waiting months and months in the VS Hold Pool :(

[stansdead]

coded messages

With regard to the VS holding pool, can I ask :

Are you Airbus A320/330 rated or B747 rated? Or are you waiting for a full type rating course?

[coded_messages]

coded messages
With regard to the VS holding pool, can I ask :
Are you Airbus A320/330 rated or B747 rated? Or are you waiting for a full type rating course?

I am 400 rated

[stansdead]

Interesting. Maybe as there is less 744 recruitment that explains the delay, either way, I wish you well.

[great expectations]

Very interesting thread, very. :D

Avoid BA. For all the above reasons. Avoid. :rolleyes: :=

Jonsv and snooky : we all obviously work for the same company!
Im tired of people telling me how lucky I am to have my job. Its not a job, its a disaster that has torn my life apart.

[supadupafly]

After a long absence from pprune in my boredom while downroute with my octogenerean crew I came across this thread and thought it was time to come out of the shadows and make my first posting on pprune.

I've been in BA for just over a year now, on the B777 and thought I'd add my views to some of those expressed here as regards life in Big Airways.

OK... well first the good points in my opinion. Job security has to be among the very best there is in the UK. The route network is superb and growing rapidly though with my seniority the same destinations (mainly east coast US) have a habit of repeating. Opportunity to do long and short haul in your career if thats what you want to do. Personally it seems to me that the majority of people on shorthaul Airbus are making the jump to longhaul as soon as they can due to working like dogs, 800hrs+ seems the norm for those guys. Everything is generally well organised, at least in terms of previous airline experience though of course the occassional cock up does occur. Bidline can be very good in terms of determining getting your days off when you want.

Downsides... time to command... current estimates for a long haul command range from 16-20+ years. Workload, at BA there is a system based on hitting a set number of hours and if you don't then you have pay deducted to cover the shortfall. Usually this requires you to fly around 85 hours a month or thereabouts. In order to achieve this target I've tended to do 5 trips a month, sometimes 6 which I can assure you is exhausting. 2 days off between trips is not uncommon though you can control this somewhat with bidding. If you are under 35 you will generally be the youngest person on the trip by a noticeable margin, which is fine though doesn't always make for the most vibrant exciting nightstops. By this I'm not meaning explicitly in terms of shacking up with crew but just even in terms of going out for drinks, food, days out etc... not always but mostly you'll find the crew have been there a thousand times before, too tired, can't be arsed etc to go do anything. What they do locked away in their rooms eating pot noodles I have no idea. It's not exactly a party fun vibrant airline though that is not to say that the people you work with aren't perfectly pleasant. Mostly the trips have just one night downroute though more routes are opening for 777.

Most people in the airline are friendly and helpful though I have met one or two people who seem to think that there are only 2 types of pilot those who work for BA and those that didn't get in. These people despite what you might hear are in the minority though is does really grate on me and make me cringe when I hear that sort of nonsense. Also had one CSD who could barely bring herself to speak to me as I had only 2 stripes which was pathetic but amusing in equal measures. As I say these incidents are very isolated but they do happen.

Pay after tax, pension etc for a new joiner is around £3500 per month. The company pay in 9% of your basic to your pension which is shockingly poor really when you compare to many in the charter world who will pay in 14-15% and fares even worse to the Virgin pension. Based on default contribution rates BALPA reakon after 30 years you'd retire on a pension around £25,000. Of course you can pay in more if you want though that will reduce your monthly net pay.

Overall I think it is a good company though the workload is exceptionally high in my opinion. Pay is average when you take the pension into account and the fact that you will be at least middle aged/old by the time you get a long haul command. The job is about as secure as you can get and despite it not being a particularly vibrant airline you can have some fun nights out etc downroute now and again.

Hope this helps, all just my opinion...

[scroggs]

he company pay in 9% of your basic to your pension which is shockingly poor really when you compare to many in the charter world who will pay in 14-15% and fares even worse to the Virgin pension.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this, but seem to be implying that the Virgin pension is worse than the others you mention. In fact, Virgin pays 15% contributions on all salary plus all profit-related pay and extra working pay. While it is not all we would necessarily want, it is arguably the best deal available in the UK airline business at the moment - and considerably better than the new BA deal.

Scroggs

[oojamaflip]

Scroggs - I'm not quite sure how you read Supadupafly's post as dispargaging although I think it should have said 'against the Virgin pension'.

I can assure you that any of us on the new BA pension scheme BARP, look enviously at the contributions that Virgin are putting in for you guys.:{

[supadupafly]

Hey Scroggs, just to clarify that yes indeed I was trying to make the point that the Virgin pension is considerably better than the BARP BA one. Sorry if I didn't make that clear originally, I can only assume my brain has slowed down from flying 6 trips in the past 4 weeks. As oojamaflip states us guys in BA on the new pension scheme look enviably at the contribution Virgin and many other carriers make on behalf of their pilots. There was(is) talk that BALPA are going to try and improve the company contribution rates for BARPers as part of the upcoming pension showdown though as time drags on the focus is increasingly shifting to aiding the pilots in NAPS with little or nothing said for sometime on improving BARPs. BALPA seem to favour the view that we should all support the guys in NAPS as a priority on the basis that if BA can get away with changing their pension for the worse then we'll be next. In return BALPA will endevour to get some improvement to BARPs.

Truth be known I'd love to fly for Virgin. I think BA is a good company to work for but Virgin has to be a clear favourite for a number of reasons. I have many friends in Virgin so feel I have some insight into the differences between the 2 airlines. Just a pity that Virgin have just stopped accepting applications for the time being.... poor timing on my part... well maybe one day .. I can dream.

[Louis Euan]

Looks like BA has frozen recruitment at the moment, any news?

I am 33 working for a charter looking for a possibility of jumping ship, is it too late for BA?

:confused:

[The Big Easy]

Did I hear that Virgin have put a stop to recruitment for the foreseeable future? They seem to think there are hard times ahead?

TBE.

[scroggs]

For the forseeable future? No. Just for the moment. Look at the Virgin thread for more information.

Scroggs

[Speedbird451]

BA or Virgin ? Well, I'm at BA and it seems many of us relatively new FOs are becoming increasingly disappointed. All that was said in the frustration illustrations is true. From a fantiastically motivated individual, I have become a disillusionned one. Of course some days are better than others, but generally, I would say that when you are surrounded with so much negativity and frustration, you just tip over the edge and become negative yourself. I guess it all depends on how much **** you get before you become unhappy and at BA, you get a lot and it happens quickly. It took me 6 months only.
I just want my happy life back (I was happier making less money) and I really hope Virgin has the ingredients to keep its crew pleased. Many of us will try to jump ship as soon as possible. BA management apparently are ignoring this right now. Only the junior guys will want to leave anyway. Not all will make it either. I would not be surprised if BA would introduce a bond in the near future so that they can decrease working conditions further.
If you had the choice, its a no brainer, go to Virgin first.

[FlyingTom]

BA has been a bit of a disappointment for me for the last couple of years due to a)BARP and b)retirement age 65 and effect on progression.

Now that BARP looks to have been significantly improved as part of the pension solution and the 65 effect is not as dire as expected I can say that BA is the place to be. Looking forward I can see expansion, great route structure, great fleets and great rostering. T&C are pretty good too.

I'm Gatwick based so can't speak for life at Heathrow, and we don't have Bidline. Now all we have to do is get our customers back and all will be rosy. I think the choice between VS and BA is quite close, BA does give you a short haul option as well, (at present).

Although WW is not as charismatic as RB he has turned out to be far more considered than the slasher we all expected. He is forthright and does what he says. I would say that I am proud to work for BA again and the heavy atmosphere seems to have lifted.

[Speedbird451]

Wait till you get to heathrow. Although you'll get significantly more time off, the dysfunction of it and the sad crew atmosphere is likely to get to you as it did for me. You'll enjoy your time off and will be at pains to come back to work. Having said that, you are not wrong. The BARP pension improvement puts my mind at rest too and if I don't get into Virgin, BA is a second best which is good already. But it could and should be so much better...

[52049er]

From the horses (BA management's) mouth. "Hardly any pilots leave BA. We are therefore paying too much or your t's & c's are too good. Do not expect any improvements - indeed expect the opposite - until leaving rates rise."

Nice attitude eh. Could be they won't have to wait too long judging by the posts above.

[FlyingTom]

I didn't say I hadn't applied elsewhere though, I have looked a little further east. At the moment BA is a nose ahead but if things get squeezed I expect lots with applications already running will go, some might already be swimming in the pool! ;)

[Speedbird451]

Indeed you're right. I hope to be out by then. The only glitch is that what they say is not completely wrong: Virgin is 10 times smaller than BA and can't absorbe that many BA piltos. Plus the only guys who would leave would typically have the following profile: 2500h+ hours DEPs who did not have enough to get on the 777. They have the **** airbus lifestyle and enough hours to get to Virgin. The low hours self sponsored will stay at BA because they don't have a choice. So BA will lose a few experienced airbus copilots and that's all.
Because BA is still attractive, they'll have no problem replacing us with the present T&Cs, so why would they bother. In fact, I think the only thing they'll do about it is to put a 4 year bond in place for newcomers. That should sort it out from their perspective. You're right, our conditions are unlikely to improve.
Putting things in perspective, again, BA is not that bad and as said above, there are some things like the quality of our trainers that I praise BA for. With a few more years seniority, my lifestyle will improve, and when longhaul comes along, I'll be able to just sit back and see less and less of LHR. Plus the fleet renewals will mean interesting opportunities and T5 will also be interesting from the shorthaul perspective...

[JT8]

I joined BA from a LCO, and had enough experience to get onto the 777 directly, but not enough to get looked at by VS.

Overall I'm very happy, although the real negative is the time to command.
I work blindlines and although this means lots of weekends I only work 4/4.5 trips a month on average. Last month was particularly quiet and I worked 12 days and took home 3900. If I want a tripline I could get a fairly crappy one with my seniority, however it could work for me if I need a specific day off. The point is there are options and good flexibility in the system.

I continue to monitor things at VS, as it was always my first choice. However I worry as things like annual hour limits have a tendancy to dissapear over time. The size of the airline means they will never have the variety that BA can offer.

I acknowledge BA shorthall LHR would be my worst nightmare. Would have preferred staying with a Lco than getting into that :yuk:

[stansdead]

JT8,

In order for Virgin to make us work 900 hours a year, they would have to negotiate HARD with our BALPA CC. That would cost them a lot of cash I hope...

As for never being as big as BA, maybe not, but there could be a hell of an expansion in order to get bigger. Who knows?

At the end of the day, if you do a typical month at Virgin, you walk away with £3300 a month PLUS your cash downroute (after pension contributions and YEAR 1 figures). It's identical to BA really, but our pension is a little better and we will have worked a trip less (or thereabouts each month).

Take your pick guys, but the reality of it is that both airlines are right up there in the marketplace for pay and conditions, irrespective of what we may all think.

Final salary pensions are long gone. Forget them and look at some airlines where you just get abused and more abused each year.

Life ain't bad in either BA or VS............there are a lot of people who would like our jobs.

[Speedbird451]

Yeah, well I would prefer yours :zzz: to mine :ugh:. I had a dream...:} .

[stansdead]

speedy451

Apply again then. People have got in at the next attempt. I believe if you look at Virgin's website they may have just started recruiting again.

Good luck, but don't top yourself if you don't get in. There is plenty more to life than flying..............

[Speedbird451]

Hello, Stansdead, well It will be my first attempt since I had not applied before... I shall put in my application right now.

[flightpattern]

The last debate on this was some time ago. With new T&Cs/rosters/pensions/pilots I was wondering if people could offer their experience in the two airlines to compare.

I'm in the fortunate position of having offers from both BA & Virgin, and whilst it's one of the best positions you can be in, the gravity of the decision is dawning on me.

BA Pros
* Probably the most stable company to work for
* Variety of fleets, both SH & LH options
* Relatively good pay & conditions
* Lots of leave

BA Cons
* Worked incredibly hard with time at the bottom of seniority very unsociable (particularly with new bid system?). Roster looks pretty awful..
* Impersonal/corporate (could be advantage or disadvantage depending on personality)

Virgin Pros
* Seems like a fun, friendly & relaxed place to work
* Capped at 750 hrs per year
* Delta/Air France KLM owning 49% & 31% respectively so stronger than ever, and supposedly like the brand
* Better work life balance from what I've seen, with rotating seniority a personal plus so I can enjoy the next decade of my life

Virgin Cons
* Not as stable - 28 million loss when every other airline is making money, equity minus £25 million...
* Ambiguity as to Delta/Air France KLM want to do with the airline (Alaska collapsed Virgin America albeit a different business model), after all it is loss making
* Committing to LH for the rest of your life

Any thoughts from people in the two airlines would be really interesting.

[Snapper5]

The last debate on this was some time ago. With new T&Cs/rosters/pensions/pilots I was wondering if people could offer their experience in the two airlines to compare.

I'm in the fortunate position of having offers from both BA & Virgin, and whilst it's one of the best positions you can be in, the gravity of the decision is dawning on me.

BA Pros
* Probably the most stable company to work for
* Variety of fleets, both SH & LH options
* Relatively good pay & conditions
* Lots of leave

BA Cons
* Worked incredibly hard with time at the bottom of seniority very unsociable (particularly with new bid system?). Roster looks pretty awful..
* Impersonal/corporate (could be advantage or disadvantage depending on personality)

Virgin Pros
* Seems like a fun, friendly & relaxed place to work
* Capped at 750 hrs per year
* Delta/Air France KLM owning 49% & 31% respectively so stronger than ever, and supposedly like the brand
* Better work life balance from what I've seen, with rotating seniority a personal plus so I can enjoy the next decade of my life

Virgin Cons
* Not as stable - 28 million loss when every other airline is making money, equity minus £25 million...
* Ambiguity as to Delta/Air France KLM want to do with the airline (Alaska collapsed Virgin America albeit a different business model), after all it is loss making
* Committing to LH for the rest of your life

Any thoughts from people in the two airlines would be really interesting.


I thought it wouldn’t be long until someone wrote on this thread again.
A good question ,
it all comes down to the individual (obviously)
i guess if you could break it down into the things that you really want , for me I love a good lifestyle.
Virgin gives me that especially with the 750hr rule , I’m home often and I enjoy my job . Fly with fantastic guys and great crew , don’t feel like a number (although unfortunately you are)

as as you say BA has security which is a big deal in the world of aviation as I found out the hard way !

Also you can change fleets (although I believe they may be limiting that soon)

The Pay in BA is more but that’s on 900hrs a year , whilst virgin scales are 750 ........
when your close to retirement you will most probably be part time so I believe the figures are pretty similar

just some light thoughts to get you thinking
it’s a kind of each to their own opinion

[Tay Cough]

Also you can change fleets (although I believe they may be limiting that soon)

That’s not necessarily the case although it’s undoubtedly on BA’s wishlist.

[flightpattern]

I agree that lifestyle outweighs pay, you can’t buy that in my opinion. I see myself far better suited to the virgin brand too.

was your experience of lack of security in virgin? I’m not too clued up on what happened in the recession/9/11 with pilots and redundancies? Obviously it’s a concern and I’m coming from a very stable outfit, so I suppose I actually have 3 options..

How do you see things going with the new acquisitions? Steadily falling to purely transatlantic stuff?

[Bloodhound Loose]

The question of which is better to work for is down to personal preferences, but surely only relevant if:

a) You work for one and have a job offer from the other, or....

b) You work for neither but have a job offer from both at the same time.

No?

[flightpattern]

Correct. I’m in position B at the moment.

[wiggy]

I know a lot of people at BA on all LH fleets and know nobody that has done more than 750 hours full time.

It’s early so I’ll be polite: whilst what you say might be literally true amongst the “lot” you know, especially if they are relatively new joiners and have been on Blindlines, (now extinct due to JSS) I’m afraid your statement creates a misleading impression of the overall picture at BA.

Like a few in this place I’m able to look at BA’s 900 hour warning lists which gives those close to a legal limit a heads up. One of these, the December BA 777 P2 900 hours warning list, contains the names of everybody on that status who is close to to, above or well above 750 annual flying hours. It has over 100 individuals on it, and a lot of those P2s are actually well up in the 800’s.

It is also worth noting that as a result of the high hours we routinely have a number of pilots having their bidding limited and/or rosters massaged in order to stay below 900 per annum/100 in 28 days.

That state of affairs is fairly standard these days month in, month out, across all the longhaul seats and fleets apart from possibly temporarily the 787. It is not a low hours airline.

It is unlikely the new rostering system at BA will bring hours down by any significant amount.so the facts are don’t for one minute think BA long haul full time is a 750 hour per annum operation.

[Cattivo]

Just a couple of points to consider from a BA long hauler. I’m not interested in a pissing contest, I’ve got mates in both companies who enjoy the job and wherever you go, I’m sure you’ll love it.

One massive plus point about the BA rosters is that once they’re finalised you can then swap, drop (although this has become more difficult) and pick up trips at the click of a button, as long as it’s legal. For a junior guy, this means that their roster may eventually look nothing like the original. This swapping system will remain in place after JSS comes in and there is a big swapping culture on most fleets. I’m bottom third on the list and get lots of weekends off because everyone wants something different. I’m on an easy mid-week trip now because someone wanted to take their partner away for the weekend. With a pretty extensive route structure and a lot of pilots to swap with, you can scan down the list of swaps like a menu in a restaurant deciding where to go!

Regarding the unsociable lifestyle comment, there is another point I’d like to mention. If you haven’t been long haul before, you may not realise just how social it is. Unlike short haul, many destinations have 2, 3 or sometimes 4 crews all nightstopping so it becomes very sociable. Weekend trips take on a new perspective. You’ll very likely have a beer with your oppo in BA/VAA too in some destinations. If that isn’t your thing then remember both companies allow you to take along friends and family to turn those longer trips away into mini-holidays.

Not sure I’d agree with your corporate culture point as I can’t say I’ve really noticed but maybe that’s just me.

Anyway, good luck with the choice, nice position to be in!

[Tay Cough]

I know a lot of people at BA on all LH fleets and know nobody that has done more than 750 hours full time.

I’m full time, don’t do overtime and am knocking on 800.

[Cattivo]

It’s early so I’ll be polite: whilst what you say might be literally true amongst the “lot” you know, especially if they are relatively new joiners and have been on Blindlines, (now extinct due to JSS) I’m afraid your statement creates a misleading impression of the overall picture at BA.

Like a few in this place I’m able to look at BA’s 900 hour warning lists which gives those close to a legal limit a heads up. One of these, the December BA 777 P2 900 hours warning list, contains the names of everybody on that status who is close to to, above or well above 750 annual flying hours. It has over 100 individuals on it, and a lot of those P2s are actually well up in the 800’s.

It is also worth noting that as a result of the high hours we routinely have a number of pilots having their bidding limited and/or rosters massaged in order to stay below 900 per annum/100 in 28 days.

That state of affairs is fairly standard these days month in, month out, across all the longhaul seats and fleets apart from possibly temporarily the 787. It is not a low hours airline.

It is unlikely the new rostering system at BA will bring hours down by any significant amount.so the facts are don’t for one minute think BA long haul full time is a 750 hour per annum operation.




Wiggy, if you’re laying out these facts to argue how busy we all are you need to also state that a LOT of these individuals will be flying that level of hours by CHOICE. Many individuals chase down the 900 limit to drop trips in December, many pick up overtime to pay for new toys and many will bid way over CAP for whatever reason. I agree it’s not a low hour airline and I may be wrong but I think for the majority, if you don’t want to work that hard, you don’t have to.

[DuctOvht]

I know a lot of people at BA on all LH fleets and know nobody that has done more than 750 hours full time.

Utter nonsense.

I can assure you, from personal experience, that this is very much NOT the case. Many long haul pilots in BA are right up on the limits, constantly.

Don’t be fooled that this is somehow through personal choice either. If you’re senior enough to get triplines inevitably you’re working at or over CAP (to try and avoid Force Assign - where BA can plant a trip across that special event that you’d carefully bid to be off for) then you’ll be damn close to 900hrs. It’s utterly inconceivable that JSS is going to lighten the workload (although FA will be a thing of the past, in theory. In practice these trips will be ‘optimised’ onto rosters, no longer attracting the extra money they currently do). Frankly, the only thing that will improve our lot is more pilots and they cost money, so we will never have enough.

So, to sum up, either they’re lying or you are.

[GS-Alpha]

I have just had a quick skim of the P2 747 high hours list, which means you are in danger of coming up against the annual legal limit. More than one third of the fleet are on it. I find myself on the list, having spent my entire year doing my level best to work as little as possible, and I have the advantage of nearly two decades of seniority on my side. These are facts, not conjecture, or asking ‘a lot’ of my mates.

[wiggy]

Wiggy, if you’re laying out these facts to argue how busy we all are you need to also state that a LOT of these individuals will be flying that level of hours by CHOICE.


Well after about three decades in various positions on senority lists I’d humbly suggest that a lot of the time being above the magic 750 hours is not done by choice, though I’d accept it is more of a factor in the very very high hour cases.

I refer you to the likes of the previous posters, such as Tay Cough, Duct and GS - a lot of full timers at BA are working >750 simply because of it’s the BA way, it is not down to December, Christmas or new toys.

[Captain Spam Can]

It’s good to see some people being honest with the OP. I find that in this industry certain people will only tell you how great something is when nothing is perfect and more often than not the person asking needs the honest answer as the decision will affect his/her family life, financial circumstances etc. I would recommend asking a mature person with a happy family life outside of work and other interests and nothing to gain, an uncompetitive nature and humble. There you will find a balanced opinion which will probably make your nice predicament much tougher.......the grass is always a different shade and the circus is always the same except for the monekys.

[flightpattern]

Thanks all - you make some salient points. Getting an unbiased opinion is difficult - no one wants to talk down on what they’ve worked damn hard to get. Even though this forum tends to go off on tangents, for the most part it’s pilots generously putting their time into helping people like me on deciding their futures, so thanks a million for your contributions & honesty!

FYI I’m already 787 LH, so I am familiar with the lifestyle but if I was to pick based on what I’ve read, it has to be Virgin.. I do like the idea of having SH in the back pocket for the future, and will be hard to turn down the variety of BA so it is a big trade off..

The one bug bear for me is the unknown future of the company. Whilst I appreciate no one has a crystal ball, where do people in virgin see the company going with the new acquisitions and Branson pretty much out the picture?

Optimistically, I think it could have a hugely exciting future. There’s just a small part of me that threats about the long term game plan of Delta & AF KLM, and what their plans are for an iconic but loss making brand.. (I’ve got over 30 years to go (eek))

[macdo]

From what its worth IMHO, having seen a fair few BA and VS rosters, and known people who do both jobs, and you already know what LH is like and you would have zero seniority starting with BA which will only slowly become less onerous, VS is the correct answer. If your lifestyle changes in the future and you want stable SH, move to Easyjet :-)

[BitMoreRightRudder]

What a great position - kudos to you for having the 2 offers on the table..

From my viewpoint the big plus for BA is job security, though bear in mind Virgin have a significant presence at LHR. Their slot pairings are worth millions. In the (very) unlikely event they went to the wall, those slots would be fought over by several large airlines, and the aircraft and crews would I imagine end up flying for the winner of the slot war. So IMHO a job at VA is pretty darn safe, just the future of the brand is in question, more so than at BA anyway. Maybe job certainty, as in who you are working for, is a better way to put it.

The biggest plus for Virgin I can see is the 750hrs and rotating seniority. That’s a fantastic draw. We have had guys leave BA LH for VA. Don’t think we get many going the other way? The VA guys I’ve met down route seem very happy with their lot. For the record I’m BA LH p2 and it’s hard work and noticeably so the last year or so. The new rostering system has really thrown up a big question mark over the future and the potential lifestyle we can all expect, especially for the junior. It’s BA’s brexit basically. No one really knows.

Anyway, tough call but a nice problem to have - good luck and enjoy either way!

[Jumbo2]

Since it got mentioned earlier on every time I taxi past Terminal 3 I notice more and more Delta aircraft at the gates and less Virgin Aircraft. I get the feeling Virgin is expending at places like Manchester and Gatwick but shrinking at Heathrow. Since I don't work for Virgin this is just an observation. Is it a correct observation that Delta has taken over quite a few of the Virgin slots at Heathrow or are they just covering the slots because of the ongoing 787 engine problems?

[sudden twang]

There are subtle things to consider also:
How many positioning sectors do you do/ year? Are they counted in the 900/750? In what cabin?
many transits by road?
pension contributions?
LOL?
Private health?
Training vacancies ( if that’s your bag)
Staff travel VS much better
Ease of commute ( I’d much rather be BA if living ion mainland Europe)
I could go on it’s not easy best of luck.

[wiggy]

Clamchowder:

Not having access to your system I can't do anything but judge on what I hear. It is a FACT that 100% of my ex-colleagues and friends at BA are sat under 750, one laughing about the quiet year on 650.


To which I would ask:

1. What Fleet(s) are they on, and
2. Are they on Blindlines
3. Are they doing a lot of reserve?

Under the BA system it is hard to keep the flying hours down to 750 when the credited hours target set by the company ( which is very roughly speaking sum of flying plus all other duties, with some factoring to cater for long slips,ground duties etc) is 1051 (Long haul), unless you fall into one or more of the following categories:

1. You are on a fleet that is suffering a lot of downtime, :oh:

2. On a fleet that has a high percentage of “long” slips (i.e. 48 hours or more, so your credit earned might be based on factored time away from base rather than flight time )

3. On Blindlines (where some credit earned is by virtue of being available to the company for work but possibly not actually flying)

4. Or are doing a lot of unused reserve (ditto).

Some or a combination of those will produce lowish flying hours outliers...Whatever the reason for your contacts lack of flying they should enjoy it whilst they can.....(especially the Blindline holders with the advent of JSS).

OTOH the average full time line pilot exposed to triplines on longhaul fleets with a high percentage of nightstops such as the 777 and most especially now the 747 will struggle to keep the flying hours below 750.

By way of example I went part time years ago (there’s a message in itself), I do triplines, I never pick up extra work and fortunately I'm senior enough to pick up the occasional relatively high credit but relatively low flying hours trip. If I pro-rata my annual flying hours up to a full time equivalent I’m always above 750, usually up around 780 -820...Given I've been using the system for more than a handful of years I'd suggest that is not chance or carelessness, that's just the way it works for a lot of pilots at BA..

Sorry this has turned into a long post but fundamentally IMVHO you cannot look at BA rostering, as actually worked by a significant number of the BA pilot workforce, and put it on a par with the Virgin 750 hour agreement, which is what it appears you are trying to do.

[Mylius]

Forget about hours for a second, has anyone thought about the dynamics of the seniority list which you might be about to join? BA has recruited around 1500 pilots in the last decade or so which accounts for a third of the pilot workforce. It’s a big bubble which puts new joiners at the back of quite a long queue for everything (especially LH commands). Virgin’s expansion is possibly yet to come.

Combined with 34 pay points now you really have to invest a great deal of time in BA to reap the rewards of seniority (which will no doubt be diluted by JSS but that’s another thing...)

Sure, you get to travel in First class at BA, you get credit for positioning sectors, the top scale Capt salary is more, the variety of destinations is incredible, but if you are looking for a career move in your 30s then Virgin would probably be the place to go now just for speed of progression. If you’re in your early 20s then BA can offer you a very good career.

Any airline that wants to make money won’t have its pilots sitting around at home all day. 750 hours is a very good headline but if you factor in positioning sectors, time spent on a coach back from Glasgow, I wonder whether that changes the picture at all?

As for job security....let’s face it neither airline is going anywhere is it?

Just my thoughts. Flame away.

[Riskybis]

Forget about hours for a second, has anyone thought about the dynamics of the seniority list which you might be about to join? BA has recruited around 1500 pilots in the last decade or so which accounts for a third of the pilot workforce. It’s a big bubble which puts new joiners at the back of quite a long queue for everything (especially LH commands). Virgin’s expansion is possibly yet to come.

Combined with 34 pay points now you really have to invest a great deal of time in BA to reap the rewards of seniority (which will no doubt be diluted by JSS but that’s another thing...)

Sure, you get to travel in First class at BA, you get credit for positioning sectors, the top scale Capt salary is more, the variety of destinations is incredible, but if you are looking for a career move in your 30s then Virgin would probably be the place to go now just for speed of progression. If you’re in your early 20s then BA can offer you a very good career.

Any airline that wants to make money won’t have its pilots sitting around at home all day. 750 hours is a very good headline but if you factor in positioning sectors, time spent on a coach back from Glasgow, I wonder whether that changes the picture at all?

As for job security....let’s face it neither airline is going anywhere is it?

Just my thoughts. Flame away.
the only guys that would be on a coach back from Glasgow would be the 747 guys and girls as I believe they do a Glasgow - Orlando ?

[Tricia Takanawa]

Anything over 30 I would head to VS personally for the reasons quoted above, unless you really want short haul. In that case, head to easyJet.

BA only really has 2 pros:
1. Job security. They're making cash hand over fist. (Ask yourself how... LHR slots (What happens if the 3rd RWY is approved). Old aeroplanes that are owned, but will cripple the airline if the oil price rockets as they'll suddenly need to invest in new airframes, but the production waitlist for 350/787 etc is long. And above all COST CUTTING.)
2. Variety if you want to try different places/fleets etc. (Already being long haul, Im sure you've realised that after around 4 years the excitement of visiting places for 24/48 hours soon wears thin)

VS pros.
Retirement bulge coming = Fast cmd, and increased seniority.
Better pay initially inc pension on flight pay.
Being at the bottom of a BA seniority list, looking at JSS coming in, ROTATING SENIORITY is a huge plus. This means at least every 3 months you'll be bidding at 33% down the list, getting some important days off. OK 1 in 3 months will be :{, but in BA that will be 12 in 12 months. When you do get some seniority, it is still rewarded as your worst month will now be 88% and best 22%, BA every month will be 66%, just about starting to get some weekends etc.
750 Hours PA! Granted sims etc don't count, but as Wiggy mentioned, they don't really in BA either as we work to 1051 credit hours. For info, leave is only credited around 2:51 per day. So 14 days leave in a month leaves circa 48 hours left to work in 2 weeks, ignoring wrap days.

Ignoring all of the above, they both seem to have very different cultures. At the end of the day, you need to fit in. Are you Red or Blue?

[stiflersmom]

First off, congrats flightpattern, you're in a great position.

I'm BA P2 LH and reasonably senior. I agree with your pro's and con's although I'd also highlight that the time to command in Virgin is likely to be very much shorter than in BA. The current time to command for LH in BA is around 18+ years, whereas my mates in Virgin seem to be coming up for command after about 12 years at the moment. From what they tell me that time to command is likely to reduce further due to the upcoming retirement bulge in Virgin. While BA recruitment is racing ahead we still have a lot of relatively young LH Captains as a product of the cadet scheme back in the 90's who understandably wont be going anywhere for a while yet. BA short haul commands are currently coming up after as little as 2 or 3 years although there's a reason for this! I think you'd struggle to find many pilots in BA who would say that full time BA SH is a sustainable career choice so I'd weigh that against the pro of being able to switch between LH and SH.

My own experience is that most BA LH pilots will be doing something north of 800 hours before overtime. As stated above blindlines, reserve and or broken aircraft ala 787, will keep your hours lower than average although pilot shortages on certain fleets and triplines will keep your hours high.

The rotating seniority at Virgin is a massive plus to my mind. I did nearly 10 years of blind lines albeit with hindsight I could and should have bid off my fleet sooner to get more control. My situation was unusual as a result of the retirement age being extended and being on a very senior fleet but my point is that if there is unforeseen stagnation for any reason you could find yourself stuck at the bottom for a long time whereas at Virgin at least you'd still have the opportunity to have some control over your working life. Just note that on achieving a new command at BA, you'll be back to the bottom of your seniority list and have to work your way up all over again, although you would go across to the P1 pay scales at your current pay point whereas in Virgin you'd go back to P1 pp1.

The pensions at both airlines are similar now but bear in mind you'd be joining BA onto 34 paypoints (changed from 24 a few years ago) also that Virgin has a higher starting salary and the potential for a much quicker command at Virgin while working approx 10% fewer hours than at BA and I could certainly see a strong case for going to Virgin over BA. I have a mate who joined BA in 2004 and shortly thereafter resigned to go to Virgin. When he resigned the BA manager was aghast as to why he would leave BA to join a lesser airline! He's now a Captain, quite happy as far as I can tell and steadily moving up the seniority list whereas in BA he'd be a relatively senior FO on any LH fleet, with about 4-5 years to go to command, earning a lot less than he currently does and working 10% harder for it!

Good luck with whatever you decide.

[macdo]

Someone up above commented 'are you red or blue?'. That's a very important factor to consider as the two airlines are very different habitats. Over the long term this could be a deal killer if you select the wrong one for your personality.

[Ennie]

So.... 14 years on, where did you go?

[Pickled]

In BA senior LH pilots normally fly the longer flights, the junior pilots tend to do the East Coast, Central Africa and Middle East. The junior pilots work harder, have more fatigue, but may not do as many flying hours per year.

Comparing flying hours is not everything, but junior BA pilots will normally work considerably harder than Virgin pilots. You will normally be junior at least twice, on joining and when first getting a LH command (more than 2 times if you go DEP, SH command, LH command).

20+ years ago a friend and I left our previous airline at the same time, he chose Virgin and I chose BA. He has earned far more money than me (LH command 13 years earlier), worked less and had far more fun. I chose BA at the time because it seemed more secure. BA outsources every job that they practically can, but that is most unlikely to apply to line pilots (training is another matter). I still think that BA offers greater security but wish that I had joined Virgin all those years ago.

[RexBanner]

BA outsources every job that they practically can, but that is most unlikely to apply to line pilots (training is another matter)

Just goes to show the power of the rumour mill. The possible outsourcing of training was a Chinese whisper that apparently rose and grew out of all proportion out of nothing more sinister than the maintanence of the TBA/TBC buildings being under consideration for outsourcing. BA have already investigated outsourcing training a couple of years back but decided it was cheaper to keep it in house, amongst other reasons.

[Tay Cough]

Some SH training has been outsourced to L3 for capacity reasons, I believe. Although that has caused some issues of it’s own apparently.

[flightpattern]

Thanks all for your honesty, advice & input - it really has made for an interesting read and helped make an informed decision.

[cefey]

Could anyone be so kind and explain red vs blue thing? How is culture/mentality in each of the companies? Thanks!

[BleedingOn]

Could anyone be so kind and explain red vs blue thing? How is culture/mentality in each of the companies? Thanks!

Blue = confident in the knowledge that one is working for the worlds favourite airline

Red = Fur coat and no knickers. All about the brand

Actually these are sweeping generalisations: there are great guys and a few not so great working at both. My impression is that crew interaction levels are overall better at VS than BA, but mixed fleet crews have certainly made that gap closer.

Hope that helps!

[Riskybis]

Blue = confident in the knowledge that one is working for the worlds favourite airline

Red = Fur coat and no knickers. All about the brand

Actually these are sweeping generalisations: there are great guys and a few not so great working at both. My impression is that crew interaction levels are overall better at VS than BA, but mixed fleet crews have certainly made that gap closer.

Hope that helps!

God it makes me so sick “ the worlds favourite airline “
BA has rapidly gone downhill, anyone that goes to work and thinks that is probably a bit of a c@ck or a thoroughbred Nigel ( basically the same )

Virgin looks way more exciting than BA

[Tay Cough]

BA hasn’t used the “world’s favourite” tagline for decades. Technically, it was actually correct at the time.

“JAFA” could possibly be a better one these days.:}

[Barcli]

God it makes me so sick “ the worlds favourite airline “
BA has rapidly gone downhill, anyone that goes to work and thinks that is probably a bit of a c@ck or a thoroughbred Nigel ( basically the same )

Virgin looks way more exciting than BA

Trust me there are about 4000 that think it and believe it......

[Jumbo2]

Trust me there are about 4000 that think it and believe it......

And you know them all on a personal level to make such a statement?

This topic was going so well with respect for each other, until Riskybis (https://www.pprune.org/members/482300-riskybis) and Barcli (https://www.pprune.org/members/2274-barcli) came along...

[2 Whites 2 Reds]

Trust me there are about 4000 that think it and believe it......

There's approximately 4300 pilots in BA and during my 4 years in the company I can assure you that the ratio of c@ck : good guy/girl is no different than anywhere else. The misconception that we're all a bunch of Nigel's poncing around thinking we're the best is frankly just outdated utter b@ll@x.

[RexBanner]

during my 4 years in the company I can assure you that the ratio of c@ck : good guy/girl is no different than anywhere else

If we’re talking Short Haul, my experience of it is that I had far more great days out at easyJet in my year there than I’ve had in 3 years at BA. The severe lack of pragmatism of many in the LHS at BA and minutiae driven briefings and stress levels in that seat are noticeably higher than any other airline I’ve worked for. They aren’t deliberately awkward or difficult individuals by nature outside of the flightdeck but boy do they make it hard work in the flightdeck. I don’t know if it’s something that you can blame those guys for as such I’ve got a feeling that it’s being driven by the training department here.

[Riskybis]

And you know them all on a personal level to make such a statement?

This topic was going so well with respect for each other, until Riskybis (https://www.pprune.org/members/482300-riskybis) and Barcli (https://www.pprune.org/members/2274-barcli) came along...

Jumbo

its just my opinion , the reason is that I believe many colleagues in BA are watching there back , almost terrified of management .
Are you still on SH ? if so you haven’t flown with the wonderful captains we have on the 787 fleet .

[wiggy]

its just my opinion , the reason is that I believe many colleagues in BA are watching there (sic) back , almost terrified of management .

I have to say I’ve never sensed anyone on the line being terrified of this lot or previous management, so I’m puzzled by that- in what context and in what way is this fear manifesting itself? Is it as in: “we’d better not bust the stable approach criteria” , or as in “ I’m not delaying the departure just because we have been under catered/just because we arrived late at the aircraft side :rolleyes:

I think being “aware” of the former is fair enough isn’t it? OTOH I’d agree there are one or two colleagues who can behave like Boy Scouts over some issues where we could take a legitimate stand.

Most of us on most Fleets get through the day not thinking much about management...if we do it is just to marvel at the thickness of the silo walls and annoyance at level of competence displayed by some at Waterside.

[Riskybis]

I have to say I’ve never sensed anyone on the line being terrified of this lot or previous management, so I’m puzzled by that- in what context and in what way is this fear manifesting itself? Is it as in: “we’d better not bust the stable approach criteria” , or as in “ I’m not delaying the departure just because we have been under catered/just because we arrived late at the aircraft side :rolleyes:

I think being “aware” of the former is fair enough isn’t it? OTOH I’d agree there are one or two colleagues who can behave like Boy Scouts over some issues where we could take a legitimate stand.

Most of us on most Fleets get through the day not thinking much about management...if we do it is just to marvel at the thickness of the silo walls and annoyance at level of competence displayed by some at Waterside.

Don’t get me wrong , all the guys I have flown with have been very professional .
I think it’s just on the last few trips I have done , my gears have grinded down with some of the guys I have flown with .
Just bad luck I guess ..... Hopefully next roster will be ok

[FACoff]

If we’re talking Short Haul, my experience of it is that I had far more great days out at easyJet in my year there than I’ve had in 3 years at BA. The severe lack of pragmatism of many in the LHS at BA and minutiae driven briefings and stress levels in that seat are noticeably higher than any other airline I’ve worked for. They aren’t deliberately awkward or difficult individuals by nature outside of the flightdeck but boy do they make it hard work in the flightdeck. I don’t know if it’s something that you can blame those guys for as such I’ve got a feeling that it’s being driven by the training department here.


Absolutely spot on. I never knew how difficult a single sector could be made until I joined BA - I regularly find myself in total disbelief as the guy next to me conducts a 30 minute brief on a straight forward approach in CAVOK conditions. Even returning to LHR can be turned into a long drawn out affair. As you say, an astonishing lack of pragmatism.

Some places on the network obviously warrant proper discussion, and I appreciate many people have also come from long haul where briefings presumably become a novelty. But we're flying 6 day blocks, comprising anything up to 20 sectors, and you have to adjust accordingly. Quizzing me about the rad alt or MSA on our 5th approach into Heathrow will a) totally disengage me and b) make me want to punch you.

It's definitely something I think ought to be addressed in the training department as I’ve found it makes for an altogether more tiring day - especially if you’re with one of these people for 4 or 5 days in a row.

[Riskybis]

Absolutely spot on. I never knew how difficult a single sector could be made until I joined BA - I regularly find myself in total disbelief as the guy next to me conducts a 30 minute brief on a straight forward approach in CAVOK conditions. Even returning to LHR can be turned into a long drawn out affair. As you say, an astonishing lack of pragmatism.

Some places on the network obviously warrant proper discussion, and I appreciate many people have also come from long haul where briefings presumably become a novelty. But we're flying 6 day blocks, comprising anything up to 20 sectors, and you have to adjust accordingly. Quizzing me about the rad alt or MSA on our 5th approach into Heathrow will a) totally disengage me and b) make me want to punch you.

It's definitely something I think ought to be addressed in the training department as I’ve found it makes for an altogether more tiring day - especially if you’re with one of these people for 4 or 5 days in a row.

Spot on sir

[wiggy]

OK..I can see where you are coming from...

Once upon a time time we could almost get away with ”Bovingdon, 27L, any questions” on Longhaul, Route Checks excepted...over the years the whole song and dance act has grown..but don’t blame it all on the people in the LHS..trust me there are plenty of your colleagues in the RHS who insist on briefing every item on the “Wheel of Doom” for a CAVOK departure out of LHR.

[akindofmagic]

Interesting discussion on briefings. I tend to tune out fairly quickly if the other bloke or bloke-ess is droning on. Briefings lose their effectiveness very quickly if they're too verbose, and in my experience the people who do the longest briefs tend to miss out the bits which are actually important.

As an aside, a colleague (to prove people weren't listening to briefs) once said "At the end of the runway I will ask for both FACs off, pull into a vertical climb and perform a flick roll off the top of the loop." It didn't register with the FO.

[Wireless]

Don’t get me wrong , all the guys I have flown with have been very professional .
I think it’s just on the last few trips I have done , my gears have grinded down with some of the guys I have flown with .
Just bad luck I guess ..... Hopefully next roster will be ok

i sympathise. Luckily on my fleet we have a tonne of “good folk” who just want to be partners in arms getting around with as little hassle as possible. Granted there’s a fair few Richard heads who I swear would have little propellers fitted on top of their epaulettes and even bigger Russian style hats if they could. I’ve just had a decent run of working with some really top folk and came away really enjoying the chats about non works stuff. But I know what it’s like when you do have a run of challenging ones. Can really suck the life out of it. A small example that doesn’t help is more than a few misunderstand the post flight review is meant to be a team thing, instead they seize the opportunity to play “have a go sim debrief”. Can make for that final little miserable draining experience to cap off on the way home on what is already a thankless job if you’ve been flying with someone who’s psychologically hard work.

I think it’s made worse both by LH and that BA are huge, it’s always new faces so pot luck. Some say that’s a positive as you rarely have to fly with any Richard heads frequently. But I found when I did fly frequently with Richard heads at previous airlines you actually could adapt to each other and in the end it wasn’t so bad really.

WRT the superiority. I personally only have seen it in a the minority of people on the line, but it definitely exists. More indoctrination I think. The majority of colleagues on my fleet seem normal balanced folk to me. Granted everyone is indoctrinated by the “BA way” but that’s not their fault as we all know it’s what this firm want from us. I think the superiority, super science “let’s make this job as hard as poss” level stuff really starts from the training dept level up into management. One of my joining letters even had something like “BA has the best pilots bla bla” or something like that. Nearly fell over. Had to pinch myself that we weren’t in 1930s colonial Britain :). I thought I might possibly be in the wrong place at that point ha! :)

[islandhopper]

With all of the above comments it would indicate that Virgin is best :D

[Riskybis]

With all of the above comments it would indicate that Virgin is best :D

for pure enjoyment of the job and lifestyle I would have to agree , never really seen the guys or girls moan about Virgin ..... which says something

[3Greens]

If we’re talking Short Haul, my experience of it is that I had far more great days out at easyJet in my year there than I’ve had in 3 years at BA. The severe lack of pragmatism of many in the LHS at BA and minutiae driven briefings and stress levels in that seat are noticeably higher than any other airline I’ve worked for. They aren’t deliberately awkward or difficult individuals by nature outside of the flightdeck but boy do they make it hard work in the flightdeck. I don’t know if it’s something that you can blame those guys for as such I’ve got a feeling that it’s being driven by the training department here.

have you ever considered that it may be you? Or something that you’re doing that’s the problem? Just a thought; because, the odd one excepted, I don’t recognise your description of BA at all.

[RexBanner]

Haha nice one. I actually had a chat with a trainer about this issue (the best trainer on the Airbus at BA in my opinion and amongst the best guys I’ve ever flown with period with the initials BC) and he agreed with me. Not only did he agree with me but he said it’s a known issue on the fleet and that every DEP pilot he speaks to from easyJet says the exact same thing, as he makes a point of asking them specifically. FACoff has agreed with me. I might be blowing my own trumpet, you can sneak through one selection process if you’re subpar but you don’t pass every single airline selection you’ve ever been through (five in total) if you’re not at least a half decent operator. So no, it’s not just me but thanks for your concern.

If you:
A) watch as a skipper ties himself in knots trying to justify a descent below MSA when it’s gin clear CAVOK out the window
B) are denied flying a visual approach in the same conditions (by a trainer no less) because “it hasn’t been briefed”
C) watch the skipper jump out of his skin after hitting the slightest bit of turbulence
D) Stick the brake fans on with temperatures just edging over 100 degrees with over an hour turnaround
E) have endless discussion about when you’re going to put the gear down (which believe me doesn’t happen in any other airline)
F) are told it is not allowed to plan to land with autobrake off (again this nonsense was spouted to me by a trainer)
G) have to put pen to paper to do a landing distance calculation onto the longest runway in the country in a light A319
H) set approach gates which are utterly pointless because they will go out the window the moment ATC give you radar vectors
I) Run the entire critical data entry process again because during the Before Starts you’ve seen that the CVR push button isn’t on. So now you’re doing it all for the benefit of the AAIB crash investigation :ugh:

I could go on but if you are faced with most of those on at least 50% of the time you go to work and you can keep your patience with it, I salute you sir. You’ve either got tremendous patience or you’ve never been at an airline where you’re treated like an adult.

[MikeAlpha320]

Haha nice one. I actually had a chat with a trainer about this issue (the best trainer on the Airbus at BA in my opinion and amongst the best guys I’ve ever flown with period with the initials BC) and he agreed with me. Not only did he agree with me but he said it’s a known issue on the fleet and that every DEP pilot he speaks to from easyJet says the exact same thing, as he makes a point of asking them specifically. FACoff has agreed with me. I might be blowing my own trumpet, you can sneak through one selection process if you’re subpar but you don’t pass every single airline selection you’ve ever been through (five in total) if you’re not at least a half decent operator. So no, it’s not me but thanks for your concern.



Totally agree with this- I'm sure its not you. Very similar experience. Think some need to be a little more pragmatic, for sure. Usually when you ask what airline he/she has come from and the response is cadet.. haha.:E

Sure its just bad luck- many are lovely guys/girls.

Seems as though the division in the company is what makes it perhaps a more difficult place to work at. You only have to browse the Balpa forum for a few minutes to see quite how divided we are... makes it easy when pay/roster negotiations come around!

[3Greens]

If you mean Brian C, then I agree, he’s s fabulous trainer and a close personal friend of mine. We joined on the same day and did our 757 course together.
Your list of gripes are wierd I agree, but I’m not sure they’d wind me up to a great degree. Maybe bring it up in the PFDB? You may get an insight into his or her thinking? And if you brought up how it pissed you off, they may change their style in future. If you didn’t say anything, then they won’t ever know.

[Stocious]

I) Run the entire critical data entry process again because during the Before Starts you’ve seen that the CVR push button isn’t on. So now you’re doing it all for the benefit of the AAIB crash investigation https://www.pprune.org/images/smilies2/eusa_wall.gif

Please tell me that didn't actually happen...

If it did, then the guy is a buffoon, and probably not just as a result of BA's training dept. In my opinion, the trainers I've had over the last few years have been nothing but pragmatic and sensible.

[RexBanner]

I agree the post flight debrief should be used for more of this stuff but most the time I just let it slide for the simple reason that BA is so big that you’re unlikely to see them again so it’s easier to just scurry away into the night with zero confrontation. I admit that’s a fault of mine.

Stocious yes that actually happened. I sh1t you not.

[Barcli]

Haha nice one. I actually had a chat with a trainer about this issue (the best trainer on the Airbus at BA in my opinion and amongst the best guys I’ve ever flown with period with the initials BC) and he agreed with me. Not only did he agree with me but he said it’s a known issue on the fleet and that every DEP pilot he speaks to from easyJet says the exact same thing, as he makes a point of asking them specifically. FACoff has agreed with me. I might be blowing my own trumpet, you can sneak through one selection process if you’re subpar but you don’t pass every single airline selection you’ve ever been through (five in total) if you’re not at least a half decent operator. So no, it’s not just me but thanks for your concern.

If you:
A) watch as a skipper ties himself in knots trying to justify a descent below MSA when it’s gin clear CAVOK out the window
B) are denied flying a visual approach in the same conditions (by a trainer no less) because “it hasn’t been briefed”
C) watch the skipper jump out of his skin after hitting the slightest bit of turbulence
D) Stick the brake fans on with temperatures just edging over 100 degrees with over an hour turnaround
E) have endless discussion about when you’re going to put the gear down (which believe me doesn’t happen in any other airline)
F) are told it is not allowed to plan to land with autobrake off (again this nonsense was spouted to me by a trainer)
G) have to put pen to paper to do a landing distance calculation onto the longest runway in the country in a light A319
H) set approach gates which are utterly pointless because they will go out the window the moment ATC give you radar vectors
I) Run the entire critical data entry process again because during the Before Starts you’ve seen that the CVR push button isn’t on. So now you’re doing it all for the benefit of the AAIB crash investigation :ugh:

I could go on but if you are faced with most of those on at least 50% of the time you go to work and you can keep your patience with it, I salute you sir. You’ve either got tremendous patience or you’ve never been at an airline where you’re treated like an adult.

REX , you have it exactly , but I could another 30 to the list..... even the post flight debrief from a cadet ( who hasnt had his first sim check yet ( ever!!) and he starts with the words " Just a couple of pointers for you to take away with you".....
Have flown with BC - toppest bloke -

[Doug E Style]

A lot of the things that Rex mentions are horribly familiar. Luckily, there are enough people who’ve done time in other airlines or professions to water down those that are institutionalised to ”the BA way”. It may be a bit of a generalisation, but if your oppo hasn’t flown for anyone else, or done anything outside aviation, then it's often a less than pleasant experience.

[Northern Monkey]

I agree with a lot of what Rex says. Descent below MSA on a clear day, brake fans, auto brake, turbulence, and my favourite - landing distance calculations for Heathrow in a single aisle airbus. All very silly.

Briefing has got a little bit out of hand at BA recently. Ironically the one thing I would brief is a visual approach. None of us are practiced at it and I've seen it messed up, several times, by people with far more flying experience than me simply because they hadn't given much of a thought to what they were gonna do after asking for the flight directors to be switched off. It's one of those manoeuvres we all like to assume we can do but the truth is, we're not remotely practiced at it. Especially on long haul.

[Enzo999]

Absolutely spot on. I never knew how difficult a single sector could be made until I joined BA - I regularly find myself in total disbelief as the guy next to me conducts a 30 minute brief on a straight forward approach in CAVOK conditions. Even returning to LHR can be turned into a long drawn out affair. As you say, an astonishing lack of pragmatism.

Some places on the network obviously warrant proper discussion, and I appreciate many people have also come from long haul where briefings presumably become a novelty. But we're flying 6 day blocks, comprising anything up to 20 sectors, and you have to adjust accordingly. Quizzing me about the rad alt or MSA on our 5th approach into Heathrow will a) totally disengage me and b) make me want to punch you.

It's definitely something I think ought to be addressed in the training department as I’ve found it makes for an altogether more tiring day - especially if you’re with one of these people for 4 or 5 days in a row.

I have to say I absolutely do not recognise the BA you are describing. It has many faults of which I am happy to complain about, but the vast majority of SH captains I fly with are just looking for an easy day out. I can’t remember the last time I gave or listened to a LHR brief. Now, I do get tired of talking about life time allowances, Tapered annual allowances or massive tax bills but other than the occasional bit of deluded narcisism the guys are generally great.

As for the discussion about who is better, unless you have a solid job offer from both it’s a redundant argument most people don’t get the choice. All I will say is having worked for 4 bankrupt companies I have never felt more secure in my job and with a family to look after nothing in the world is more valuable than that.

[FACoff]

Rex - tragically I can relate to nearly all of those. Perhaps my CRM is lacking but I also find people take the open question concept way too far. A recent favourite, "what do you think about use of the APU today?". Umm, let's use it...?



I have to say I absolutely do not recognise the BA you are describing. It has many faults of which I am happy to complain about, but the vast majority of SH captains I fly with are just looking for an easy day out. I can’t remember the last time I gave or listened to a LHR brief.


What can I say, we're either flying for different airlines or you've been very lucky indeed. The other day, my skipper successfully briefed for the entirety of a 50 minute cruise. I was ready to hang myself by the end of it. When, over a beer later that evening, I tentatively brought up the more 'abbreviated' briefing style at my previous airline, he was incredulous. As I recall his words were - "that's appalling, there's always something to brief. If not, pick the QRH up and go through some memory actions together". And guess what, that's exactly what we did going into Heathrow. After he'd briefed me about Heathrow of course.

[blind pew]

Hamble course mate brand new on 400 as chief trainer blxxxcks long time SFO for moving heading bug whilst sir is giving his life history to pax...standard operating procedures boyo!
short final into a Caribbean island disconnects auto throttle with toga button....astonished Welshman manages to grab three of the four levers.
Fortunately let's the three go as 400 doesn't continue flying in a straight line with outer on full chat.
Cried with laughter when SFO told me the story.
Later went onto something in a frog airline..told me the frogs can t fly..might have a point there after 447.
PS I am frog..and the Welsh have some lovely sheep

[3Greens]

Hamble course mate brand new on 400 as chief trainer blxxxcks long time SFO for moving heading bug whilst sir is giving his life history to pax...standard operating procedures boyo!
short final into a Caribbean island disconnects auto throttle with toga button....astonished Welshman manages to grab three of the four levers.
Fortunately let's the three go as 400 doesn't continue flying in a straight line with outer on full chat.
Cried with laughter when SFO told me the story.
Later went onto something in a frog airline..told me the frogs can t fly..might have a point there after 447.
I don’t even know where to begin with this; casual racism, slander and barely even written In English. In short, a disgraceful post.

[wiggy]

At the risk off continuing off topic:

Briefing has got a little bit out of hand at BA recently..

Yep, but it’s not something that has been permanently built into the “BA way”, it goes in phases and I think ATM we are at “peak brief” ...and don’t forget a “bespoke landing distance calculation”, even into LHR, CAVOK with 10 knots down the strip “because somebody got caught out in Leeds Bradford once....”. I think it’ll change again soon....

And to be fair to BA there are those who still try to give the “Bovingdon , 27L ...” style of brief :) into base, OTOH if you are not a regular into some places (which covers a lot of longhaul) is it just possible a snappy LoCo style brief is not appropriate? And if you are getting long winded briefs from some in the LHS on Shorthaul is it possible some of them have recently come across from Longhaul and still finessing their new style?

One things for sure, I’m not convinced you can always claim a > 2 min brief is an automatic “fail”.

[Mr Angry from Purley]

for pure enjoyment of the job and lifestyle I would have to agree , never really seen the guys or girls moan about Virgin ..... which says something
Probably because they don't do any short haul perhaps. I do think having a 750 block limit is a major plus for them.

[757_Driver]

I have to say I absolutely do not recognise the BA you are describing. It has many faults of which I am happy to complain about, but the vast majority of SH captains I fly with are just looking for an easy day out. I can’t remember the last time I gave or listened to a LHR brief. Now, I do get tired of talking about life time allowances, Tapered annual allowances or massive tax bills but other than the occasional bit of deluded narcisism the guys are generally great.

As for the discussion about who is better, unless you have a solid job offer from both it’s a redundant argument most people don’t get the choice. All I will say is having worked for 4 bankrupt companies I have never felt more secure in my job and with a family to look after nothing in the world is more valuable than that.




I'm aware of the BA being described above - and yes it's driven by a training department largely run by people who have never, ever done anything else - BA cadet, BA TFO, BA TC , BA flight training management.
Massive confirmation bias as everything they do agrees with everything they've seen but they don't realise they've never really seen much. 10,000 hours flying the same aircraft for the same operator under the same micromanagement isn't actually "experience" in any meaningful way.

Anyhoo - day to day I don't see the above too much, but then I've got a bit of seniority and fly with more senior, pragmatic guys and many ex BMI skippers. I hesitate to make sweeping generalisations, but maybe the guys seeing the issues here (which ARE very real and do exist) are junior FO's flying with Junior skippers freshly indoctrinated by the training department? who know's why there's such a marked difference of experience.

FWIW my breif into LHR is "what's different about today? what's my fuel bottom line off the hold?". I can't see that anything else is needed - nobody has built any new mountains , nobody has changed euclidean geometry (so the 2500 foot point on a 3 degree ILS is always in the same goddam place!). I've rarely if ever had a skipper quesiton that - but again, maybe my seniority avoids the people who would question it..

[clvf88]

Sorry, slight drift. Am I correct in saying there's a new pay deal for 2019? Has this been announced? If not, is it likely to be existing pay scales x a few percent? (BA)

[Northern Monkey]

Sorry, slight drift. Am I correct in saying there's a new pay deal for 2019? Has this been announced? If not, is it likely to be existing pay scales x a few percent? (BA)

There is no news on the 2019 pay deal and there is unlikely to be any news anytime soon. Negotiations have barely begun (we're only just being asked about our priorities via survey). Historically negotiations run long and it ends up being backdated. So it could easily be February/March or even later before a deal is concluded. That is assuming a deal is even possible without some form of conflict. Expectations are high and management are unlikely to be sympathetic.

[clvf88]

There is no news on the 2019 pay deal and there is unlikely to be any news anytime soon. Negotiations have barely begun (we're only just being asked about our priorities via survey). Historically negotiations run long and it ends up being backdated. So it could easily be February/March or even later before a deal is concluded. That is assuming a deal is even possible without some form of conflict. Expectations are high and management are unlikely to be sympathetic.

Understood - thanks for taking the time to answer :ok:

[wiggy]

I'm aware of the BA being described above - and yes it's driven by a training department largely run by people who have never, ever done anything else - BA cadet, BA TFO, BA TC , BA flight training management.
Massive confirmation bias as everything they do agrees with everything they've seen but they don't realise they've never really seen much. 10,000 hours flying the same aircraft for the same operator under the same micromanagement isn't actually "experience" in any meaningful way..

dare I say I don’t really recognise that state of affairs, at least on the Fleet I’m on....FWIW one of the most recent senior senior standards TCs on my fleet was ex Tornadoes, the last few TCs I’ve had dealings with were, for better or worse ex RAF ....so you could perhaps start blaming the Air Force for the training environment but OTOH I gather some of those guys (and others) weren’t backwards at coming forwards in Training meetings when the level of BS got too thick. Also I’m certainly seeing quite a few of training co-pilots on “my” fleet who are ex other commercial operators, often European, so I’m not sure the argument that the majority of trainers at BA haven’t seen anything else or operated in another environment holds any water on all Fleets..is this supposed phenomenon perhaps a big/small Airbus “thing”?

[Dogma]

Try TUI Airways - 5 Red Arrows so far this round

[Cattivo]

Rex - tragically I can relate to nearly all of those. Perhaps my CRM is lacking but I also find people take the open question concept way too far. A recent favourite, "what do you think about use of the APU today?". Umm, let's use it...?



What can I say, we're either flying for different airlines or you've been very lucky indeed. The other day, my skipper successfully briefed for the entirety of a 50 minute cruise. I was ready to hang myself by the end of it. When, over a beer later that evening, I tentatively brought up the more 'abbreviated' briefing style at my previous airline, he was incredulous. As I recall his words were - "that's appalling, there's always something to brief. If not, pick the QRH up and go through some memory actions together". And guess what, that's exactly what we did going into Heathrow. After he'd briefed me about Heathrow of course.

I’ve been through this painful experience many a time mate, I feel your pain. The lack of awareness in these people is unbelievable. They think they’re being safer by comprehensively briefing every detail when in actual fact they’re having the opposite effect. If you’re familiar with a destination then less is definitely more. I had one guy start to brief the destination approach whilst on stand at T5 (and it wasn’t MAN) and another brief every possible taxi routing from 27L back to stand. I had to remove my own shoelaces at that point.

[JW411]

Some years ago (before I retired) I was told by a CAA Ops Inspector that he had recently been on the jump seat of a BA flight from MXP to LHR. The hero in the Left Seat gave such an epic brief that went on so long such that they missed their slot and took a 2-hour delay. I can't believe that such a thing still happens.

[wiggy]

TBH honest having flown a fair few times on Shorthaul flight deck jumpseats (thanks to those involved :ok:) and sat behind a few briefs I'm sensing there's a little bit of exaggeration going on here by some posters, maybe for effect...either that or some people have got really really short attention spans. Genuine question (yes I know we are still off topic, so definitely my last post in this context):

1. Experience levels across the BA Fleets vary and given the size of some status lists you've possibly never flown with your "mate" before and don't have handle on how much briefing the person in the other seat needs...you might be suprised how much briefing some folks need...not everybody is an ace...

2. From a long haul POV and as a FWIW I wouldn't regard a 5 minute brief/discussion on the joys of an LDA into the likes of HND as being terribly excessive, especially if the briefer was a regular to that place since I am not. OTOH 5 minutes into LHR on a NATO standard day...perhaps not..What's your cutoff? Any thing above 2 min is too much, regardless of circumstances?

3. If what you guys regard as overbriefing is so endemic don't just whinge here, that won't fix a thing - Make the point direct to Training management ( via Post flight reviews/Sim & line check debriefs/ even yammer...), with examples such as you have given above.

[VinRouge]

How is the latest JSS run looking for the junior guys?

[wiggy]

Most widely expressed opinion about the simulated January run seems to be something along the lines of :sad: :yuk:..and that’s not just being heard from the Junior.

Looking at how nasty some of the “rosters” are if they do end up being replicated in the first live run then the end of Jan could be interesting for Flight Ops from a scheduling and sickness POV.....

[VinRouge]

Most widely expressed opinion about the simulated January run seems to be something along the lines of :sad: :yuk:..and that’s not just being heard from the Junior.

Looking at how nasty some of the “rosters” are if they do end up being replicated in the first live run then the end of Jan could be interesting for Flight Ops from a scheduling and sickness POV.....


are there not enough bums on seats (i.e. hence why the recruitment is in overdrive) or is this a long term position to squeeze every drop of blood out of the line?

[wiggy]

Probably both of the above, with the addition of the fact a new bidding system from hell.

[RexBanner]

How is the latest JSS run looking for the junior guys?

For short haul not too bad at all (having said that I’m not that junior and Caps are low being January).